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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Ungoss Creative, I'm Bridge Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. So, Mike,

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about what I wanted to do

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Speaker 1: for the episode this week, I was thinking like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I think I want to talk about.

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Speaker 2: The presidential debate.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna watch it live to see if anything comes

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Speaker 1: up from.

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Speaker 2: It, and you actually early on were like, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Know if that's what you're gonna want to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what listeners are going to

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Speaker 1: want to hear about.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if the if the mood.

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Speaker 1: Is going to want to hear more commentary on that.

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Speaker 1: At the time, I was like, oh, I wonder why

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Speaker 1: this is his position. Now I'm realizing you were one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent correct.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well I'll take it. Yeah. I mean, by all

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Speaker 3: means we can talk about the presidential debate, but I

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Speaker 3: don't know. There's just so much coverage of it and

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Speaker 3: so many people sharing their opinions about it. You know,

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Speaker 3: your opinions are good and you have great takes on it,

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Speaker 3: but I don't know. It seems like listeners can find

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Speaker 3: that anywhere they you know, if it doesn't really have

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of immediate tanguity relevance, maybe we could

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Speaker 3: talk about something else to give people some options of

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Speaker 3: something else to listen to.

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Speaker 1: So I am very much avoiding presidential debate coverage. Instead,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about something totally unrelated to take my and

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Speaker 1: possibly you person listening your mind off of it.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about other people's mess.

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Speaker 1: So we have talked on the podcast before about this

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Speaker 1: dynamic where it feels like in our current digital media climate,

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Speaker 1: surveillance is everywhere. Yes, I'm definitely talking about big tech

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Speaker 1: surveillance of what we're all doing online, all of our data,

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Speaker 1: but also individuals keeping tabs on the behavior of others,

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Speaker 1: whether or not they want to or consent to being

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Speaker 1: surveilled in that way. I think social media invites us

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Speaker 1: to build a world off of the behavior of strangers

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Speaker 1: to suit our needs.

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Speaker 2: All it takes is one little glimpse, one little peak.

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Speaker 1: Into the lives of a stranger, and suddenly everybody is

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Speaker 1: building a world around what kind of person they think

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Speaker 1: this person is, you know, casting characters, becoming very personally

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Speaker 1: involved or invested, tracking down information, smoothing information about them,

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Speaker 1: and I think that we have a climate that is

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Speaker 1: brought to us by social media where people forget that

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Speaker 1: people are people who deserve privacy, Like just because you

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Speaker 1: said one little thing that happened to go viral, or

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Speaker 1: just because somebody maybe happened to see you possibly maybe

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Speaker 1: cheating on your wife on a plane. Now millions of

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Speaker 1: people are involved in your business and your marriage. We've

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Speaker 1: kind of talked about this on the show before, but

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Speaker 1: we've got a couple of new instances that have come

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Speaker 1: up lately that I think really speak to what I'm describing.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk them and talk through what they

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Speaker 1: might say about our culture. Quick heads up that all

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Speaker 1: of these instances are kind of sexual in nature, So

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Speaker 1: if you're listening with your kids in the car or something,

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Speaker 1: just know that it's not an explicit episode, but we

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Speaker 1: are talking about sexual topics a little bit. So one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why I'm excited to talk to you

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Speaker 1: about this, Mike, is because I have a pretty good

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Speaker 1: sense of your algorithms and like what kind of things

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Speaker 1: come up on your personal feed and what pockets of

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Speaker 1: the Internet you're in, and what pockets are the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I'm a thousand percent sure you have no idea. So

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Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you, have you ever heard of this?

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Speaker 1: Next person, I already know the answer is no, and

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Speaker 1: I'm excited that the answer is no. But I'll just

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Speaker 1: ask you anyway, even though I know when I say

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Speaker 1: the phrase hawk to you girl, does that mean anything

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Speaker 1: to you?

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Speaker 3: Uh? It does not. It looks like perhaps it's Hawaiian.

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Speaker 3: It means nothing to me.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So the young woman that the Internet has dubbed hawk

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Speaker 1: Girl is Haley Welsh. She's a young woman living in

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Speaker 1: Tennessee and she's walking around one night and she gets

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Speaker 1: stopped for one of those like man on the street interviews,

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Speaker 1: you know where a guy with a camera and a

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Speaker 1: microphone is like putting a phone in your face.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm talking about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure makes free great content.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if anyone ever approaches you with a

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Speaker 1: microphone and a camera on the street in twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: my advice is to run. My advice is to give

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Speaker 1: them the Tanya Harding no comment. I'll get into why

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Speaker 1: exactly that is, but my advice is to not engage.

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Speaker 2: So it is for a.

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Speaker 1: Nashville street show called Tim and d TV. It's an

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Speaker 1: interview series where these two guys Tim and d interview

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Speaker 1: like drunk people leaving bars and nightclubs on the street

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Speaker 1: in Nashville and they ask them for like wild and

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Speaker 1: crazy stories. So they ask this young woman, Haley for

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Speaker 1: a sex tip to make men go crazy in bed,

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Speaker 1: and her tip is more or less that you can

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Speaker 1: use spit as lubricant during oral sex. Solid advice. Ten

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Speaker 1: out of ten love that advice. However, when Haley is

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Speaker 1: sort of delivering this tip, she puts her own kind

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Speaker 1: of enthusiastic spin on it. She says, you gotta give

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Speaker 1: them that quak tah' I'm not like giving it the

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Speaker 1: gravi toss that she gives it because it would involve

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Speaker 1: making like deep throat noises. And I think that's if

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Speaker 1: someone's listening to headphones, that's like the grossest thing you

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Speaker 1: can hear, not in like a sex shame you way,

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Speaker 1: but in a it does it sound good in the

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Speaker 1: ears kind of way when you're wearing headphones, So it

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Speaker 1: needs to be seen to be understood if you haven't

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Speaker 1: seen it. But she's essentially giving an enthusiastic portrayal of

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Speaker 1: what it sounds and looks like to hawk up spit

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Speaker 1: from one's throat.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: You've described it accurately so that I'm able to recreate

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Speaker 3: a picture in my head of this video. I can't

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Speaker 3: say it makes a lot of sense, but yeah, I

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Speaker 3: know what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: She says that one sentence, I got to give them

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Speaker 1: that hawk tu ya, everybody goes wild, instant virality. They

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Speaker 1: start calling her talk to you girl, basically based on

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Speaker 1: the sound that she made when answering this question.

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Speaker 2: What's one move in bed that makes a man go crazy?

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Speaker 4: Every time you get in that hawk?

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Speaker 2: Dude spit on that night?

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Speaker 1: There are millions of memes over the last week. The

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Speaker 1: clip goes megaviral. It is referenced by Joe Rogan, Howard Stern,

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Speaker 1: a Phillies baseball team player Bryce Harper. So I am

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Speaker 1: deeply curious as to why this like short moment from

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Speaker 1: a Nashville Street TV show took off.

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Speaker 2: Globally like it did.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that we have had a big, true,

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Speaker 1: meaningful like all caps viral moment in a long time.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember back in twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 1: you know we're like these, You would have these moments

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Speaker 1: that were very small that would go super viral. Like again,

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Speaker 1: I know you don't remember any of these because we

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Speaker 1: were not in the same pockets of the Internet. You're

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Speaker 1: probably like in a tent camping somewhere. But Damn Daniel

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Speaker 1: back at it again with the White Kicks.

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Speaker 2: Does that mean anything to you?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Of course, who could forget that classic video?

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Speaker 1: Well, that was just a video taken in like a

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Speaker 1: high school where this student would film his friend Daniel's

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Speaker 1: outfits and shoes every day. And I guess he had

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Speaker 1: a nice style, but it wasn't anything like I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was nice, but it wasn't anything to write home about,

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Speaker 1: and so he would be like, Damn Daniel beck at

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Speaker 1: it again with the White Kicks.

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Speaker 2: Went totally viral.

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Speaker 1: These kids were on the Ellen Show like it was

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Speaker 1: like when I say it was like a huge moment,

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Speaker 1: it was a huge moment. Like I genuinely cannot think

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Speaker 1: of a time more recently where somebody has had this

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Speaker 1: level of instant Internet fame from just one small thing

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Speaker 1: that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: In like circa twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: I think part of it is because of algorithms and

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Speaker 1: the rise of algorithm feeds. Like, we are much more

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Speaker 1: siloed online these days, and so you know, the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that I am seeing all over my curated

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Speaker 1: for you page, it's very different than the kind of

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Speaker 1: thing that you, Mike are seeing and you're curated for

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Speaker 1: you feed. Right, Like, we could live in completely different

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Speaker 1: corners of the Internet where never the too shall meet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think we might, am I remembering correctly

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Speaker 3: that at least as of a few years ago, there

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Speaker 3: is a small industry of PR media consultants who would

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Speaker 3: create viral videos for you. They like studied the science

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Speaker 3: of making things go viral, and so you know, they

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Speaker 3: would basically like apply a formula to try to make

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Speaker 3: videos go super viral in this way that previously had

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Speaker 3: been somewhat organic.

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Speaker 1: I would argue that what kind of rose up and

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Speaker 1: took that space that you're describing is the sort of

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Speaker 1: fake viral video. The video that is hired actors playing

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Speaker 1: out a skit for and there's a script that they

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Speaker 1: know what their parts are, and then that video is

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Speaker 1: sold to us the public as the real thing. Right,

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Speaker 1: So when you watch these video on social media where

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Speaker 1: it's like a fight on a plane and you're like,

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Speaker 1: you look at the background and you're like, what plane

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Speaker 1: do you know that uses those LED light strips you

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Speaker 1: can buy off an Amazon? No planes use that. This

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Speaker 1: isn't really a plane, this is a set. I've seen

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Speaker 1: one where it purports to show like a fed up

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Speaker 1: mom telling off a trans teacher to advocate for her kid,

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Speaker 1: and then another video where the woman who was playing

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Speaker 1: the mom is now the teacher and it's like teacher

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Speaker 1: gets cursed out by mom. I would say that what

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Speaker 1: has taken the place of the sort of we can

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Speaker 1: tell you how to go viral industry is the we

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Speaker 1: make fake videos and live to the viewers about what.

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Speaker 2: They are seeing to go viral. That's like the new thing.

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Speaker 3: I would say, so so many different people with different

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Speaker 3: types of agendas. Displacing organic viral moments could unite people, or.

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Speaker 1: At least unite people in distracting them from maybe things

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Speaker 1: happening in national politics that.

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Speaker 2: They want a little bit of a break from.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's mean, if there's any common experience

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four in America that we all could use

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Speaker 3: a goddamn break.

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Speaker 1: And it reminds me of another kind of viral video

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Speaker 1: of yesteryear, and that was Chewbacca Mom. You're a Star

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Speaker 1: Wars nerd, so you actually might remember Chewbaca mom. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember her?

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Speaker 3: I'm trying.

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Speaker 2: There's not much to it.

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Speaker 1: Basically, she was a woman who bought a Chewbacca Halloween

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Speaker 1: mask and you it's a mask where you open the

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Speaker 1: mouth and it makes a Chewbacca noise. And she puts

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Speaker 1: it on. She's in her car and she just thinks

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Speaker 1: it's the best. She's like just like laughing hysterically at

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Speaker 1: this mask. That's really it. So this video also went superviral.

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Speaker 1: This was May of twenty sixteen, and I often think

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Speaker 1: back to Chewbacca Mom and why that went so viral,

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Speaker 1: And I had to think back to, like, well, what

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Speaker 1: was going on in May of twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 2: This was when Trump had become the GOP nominee.

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Speaker 1: It was like Ted Cruz I think, was the last

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Speaker 1: hold out and he dropped out in May of twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: until it was like, oh it's Trump. There was a

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Speaker 1: lot happening with racial justice. The officers who killed Freddie

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Speaker 1: Gray and Baltimore were not convicted, and you had the

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Speaker 1: rise of the all right really becoming a thing. This

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Speaker 1: is around the time where people like Milo Yanapolis, who

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Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show before, were coordinating harassment

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Speaker 1: campaigns of women around things like the all women Ghostbusters

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Speaker 1: reboot right and so I remember distinctively that time on

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Speaker 1: the Internet as feeling like not just bad, not just toxic,

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Speaker 1: but like bad bad, Like the vibes were not good.

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Speaker 1: And I think that in these times when everything feels

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Speaker 1: heightened and charged and really difficult online, we will always

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Speaker 1: seize on any little thing that brings us out of that,

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Speaker 1: even for a moment, even if it's silly, to be honest,

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Speaker 1: kind of like what I'm doing right now, like leaning

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Speaker 1: into pop culture viral internet moments to avoid thinking about

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Speaker 1: national politics.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I get it.

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Speaker 2: So let's go back to talk to you girl.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna start calling her HT girl because it's a

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Speaker 1: mouthful to say, no pun intended, but appreciated. So girl

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Speaker 1: is really capitalizing on her viral moment, which honestly good

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Speaker 1: for her.

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Speaker 2: I think that is great and savvy.

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Speaker 1: There were people saying that she signed a deal with UTA,

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Speaker 1: which is not true. UTA has confirmed they don't have

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Speaker 1: a deal and the works with her there was even

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Speaker 1: a rumor that she had been fired from her job

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Speaker 1: teaching at Epstein Preschool.

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Speaker 2: That's also not true. That was a parody new.

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Speaker 1: Site that fooled people online, So no truth to that.

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Speaker 1: She does not have a UTA deal, but she is

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Speaker 1: being managed by Jason Petite, a Marshall County native who

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Speaker 1: has known HT for many years. So he did an

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Speaker 1: interview with Rolling Stone and said that a day or

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Speaker 1: two after the video started going viral, he reached out

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Speaker 1: to her because he was like, Yo, you need to

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Speaker 1: monetize this brand. So they are now making merch with

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Speaker 1: hactwah on it. They've got hats, they've got shirts. My

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Speaker 1: whole thing is like, I'm so curious how they settled

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Speaker 1: on a spelling of this because I've smelled that multiple

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Speaker 1: different ways. I've seen it smelled multiple different ways. I'm curious,

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Speaker 1: like how they decided like, Okay, no, it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: hawk Tuia. It's gonna be spelled this way. That's gonna

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Speaker 1: be the branding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that would have been an interesting discussion, like a

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Speaker 3: you're gonna do hats, they're gonna do bibs, they're gonna

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Speaker 3: do handkerchiefs. Other adult accessories, so many options. They sorted

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Speaker 3: that out in just a couple of days. Huh, that's

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Speaker 3: pretty impressive. Good for her for capitalizing on this. What

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Speaker 3: sounds like she was just drunk on her way home

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Speaker 3: from the bar.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this has been viral for less than two weeks.

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Speaker 1: In that time, how much money do you think that

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Speaker 1: she has made on March to date.

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Speaker 3: Let's say thirty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Sixty five thousand dollars.

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Speaker 3: Good for her sell those hats.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. And also, by the way, not

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Speaker 1: for nothing, Christmas is coming up.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying, but a Tangoti dot com slash hawk

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Speaker 3: twaw for a discount code you can't Actually that doesn't exist.

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Speaker 4: I just made that up. Let's take a quick break

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Speaker 4: at her back.

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Speaker 1: So the person who reached out to become her manager

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Speaker 1: and help her with these licensing deals with the hats

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Speaker 1: and the shirts really pointed out that he wanted to

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Speaker 1: make sure that some of the money from this viral

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Speaker 1: moment went back into her pocket, which is why they're

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Speaker 1: doing the merchandising, he told Rolling Stone. Of course, she

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Speaker 1: hasn't gotten a dime from the first viral video that

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Speaker 1: went out. Nobody was asking permission for her to do

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Speaker 1: nothing neither. I just wanted her to get some of

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Speaker 1: the profit from this deal. It does kind of sound

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Speaker 1: like she is getting a percentage of the profits from

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Speaker 1: the merchandising. He declined to share exactly what percentage goes

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Speaker 1: directly to her, but he says that he suggested to

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Speaker 1: her that she trademarked the phrase and that she's talking

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Speaker 1: to a lawyer about it. So again, I am just

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Speaker 1: purely glad that she is getting her coin because as

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Speaker 1: we know, as we've talked about on the show, oftentimes

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Speaker 1: people who are these viral sensations do not see a dime,

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Speaker 1: whereas other people make money from their whatever viral phrase

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Speaker 1: or viral thing they do, and they don't see a dime,

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Speaker 1: especially if they're black. Right, if that is a common thing,

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Speaker 1: where you know, the woman who was sitting in her

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Speaker 1: car and was like eyebrows on fleek didn't see money

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Speaker 1: from that.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of changed a little bit because.

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Speaker 1: She's gotten a few like brand deals later on, But

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Speaker 1: in the beginning, everybody was making money off of that

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Speaker 1: except for her. But even though HT is making some

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Speaker 1: money off of this, it doesn't sound like it is

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Speaker 1: all like roses and rainbows. People early on were deeply

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Speaker 1: trying to track her down.

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Speaker 2: She was docked.

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Speaker 1: They were finding her social media accounts, which she then deleted,

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Speaker 1: and people were trying to track down where she worked.

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Speaker 2: She might be a bartender, according to Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 1: Her manager says Welsh, who did not respond to Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stone's request for an interview, is overwhelmed by the attention,

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Speaker 1: and she has requested that he not share any personal

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Speaker 1: details about her or feature her face on the merchandise.

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Speaker 1: He says, there are some crazy people in the world

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Speaker 1: who have reached out to her. She's probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most well known people in the world at this point,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know if she's embraced it. So to me,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like something that is necessarily the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that somebody was like looking for welcoming, right,

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Speaker 1: Like maybe when you were drunk you were like, oh,

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Speaker 1: talking to these guys for their street show.

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Speaker 2: Why not? But like, who could have predicted the way

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Speaker 2: that it would have taken off.

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Speaker 1: So again, I'm happy that she was able to monetize this,

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Speaker 1: but as this is all happening, The Daily Dot reports

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Speaker 1: that she's kind of been intentionally laying low, going back

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Speaker 1: to a rural community in Tennessee. So I guess my

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Speaker 1: point is is that I'm happy that she's able to

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Speaker 1: make money. But one person being asked a question maybe

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Speaker 1: when they were drunk after a night out, is not

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Speaker 1: expecting this level of scrutiny and attention for sale one

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Speaker 1: sentence about oral sex on camera for this show. And

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Speaker 1: this is why I say, like, if somebody comes up

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Speaker 1: to you with a camera and a mic in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four, nothing good can come of it.

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Speaker 2: Mate. Nor Evans of the news outlet As wrote a.

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Speaker 1: Piece called hak Tu Yeah Girl and Other Street interview

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Speaker 1: subjects who go viral? What legal rights do they have

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Speaker 1: and the content they appear in? And the answer is

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Speaker 1: really none. She talks about how these videos that sometimes

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Speaker 1: do go viral will feature young people, usually walking around

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Speaker 1: town after.

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Speaker 2: A night out.

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Speaker 1: She writes, with a few beers in their blood, they

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Speaker 1: might even say things they regret, especially when they're offhand.

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Speaker 1: Comments begin a conversation online that put a huge spotlight

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Speaker 1: on their life that can feel invasive and overwhelming. And

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Speaker 1: another good point to know about this kind of content

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Speaker 1: is that if you agree to be on a video

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Speaker 1: like this, and then you change your mind about what

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Speaker 1: you said after somebody shoved a camera in your face

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Speaker 1: that when you were drunk leaving a bar, you don't

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Speaker 1: have a ton of recourse, like you likely cannot get

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Speaker 1: that content taken down even if you ask. Ultimately, my

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Speaker 1: biggest issue with these kinds of man on the street

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Speaker 1: videos is that anybody, anybody can get a camera and

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Speaker 1: a mic to do this. Right when we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the college campus protests, you saw young people declining

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Speaker 1: to give interviews, not just to traditional media, but also

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Speaker 1: to just sort of like person with a camera who

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Speaker 1: I have no idea who this person is. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people were kind of chastising these youth, being like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: how do they expect to get their message out if

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Speaker 1: they're not giving interviews, But actually they were being really

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Speaker 1: smart because if you have not vetted who this person is,

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Speaker 1: they could be literally anybody with any kind of agenda.

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Speaker 1: You have no idea, and so if you are trying

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Speaker 1: to put a curated message out into the world, you

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Speaker 1: should not be talking to a rando just putting a

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Speaker 1: camera in your face.

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Speaker 2: You don't even know their name.

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Speaker 1: They could be anybody as mat Nor Evans puts it

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Speaker 1: in her piece, With traditional media, there is an expectation

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Speaker 1: that the interviewer is acting in good faith and when

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Speaker 1: speaking to an ordinary person, to present them in a

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Speaker 1: neutral but respectful light. The street style interviews don't always

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Speaker 1: follow the same principles, and that all is captured in

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Speaker 1: these viral moments.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such a good point that, you know, people

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Speaker 3: taking part in some sort of interview when they're they've

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Speaker 3: been drinking, or they're out on the street. It is

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Speaker 3: always a risk that anything you say to a camera

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Speaker 3: is going to appear on the Internet and be there forever.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think it's particularly fraught in the

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Speaker 3: particular context that HT girl got caught in of, you know,

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Speaker 3: at night, out on the street in front of a

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Speaker 3: bunch of bars, it is appropriate to talk with other

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Speaker 3: adults about sexual stuff, but then that same video played

401
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Speaker 3: on everybody's TikTok algorithm in the middle of the day

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Speaker 3: to like kids at school or like your parents, just

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Speaker 3: people who are not in that context where it's no

404
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Speaker 3: longer appropriate. Yeah, that's gotta feel really crummy. And I

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Speaker 3: can see how she would feel overwhelmed and wanting to

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Speaker 3: hide from it.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, that is like, really my issue with this style

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Speaker 1: of interview. The subject has no idea how it will

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Speaker 1: be used. They have no control over how it will

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Speaker 1: be used, and whatever framing is projected onto it after

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Speaker 1: the facts, they just have no control over that. And

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Speaker 1: I think that by definition, by nature, that is at

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Speaker 1: its heart exploitative, because it's not like ht girl sees

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Speaker 1: any money from the millions of views and all the

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Speaker 1: attention that that channel got from her vulnerable moment. You know,

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Speaker 1: if she wants to capitalize off that, she is sort

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Speaker 1: of forced to do a merchandising deal if she wants

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Speaker 1: to make money from that.

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Speaker 2: And I think that we.

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Speaker 1: Should really be thinking about the ways that these viral

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Speaker 1: moments kind of force people into a limelight. I would argue,

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Speaker 1: this is my opinion that like, if you've been drinking

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Speaker 1: and you are caught in one of those moments, you can't.

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Speaker 4: You can't.

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Speaker 1: You're not fully consenting to everything that comes next. Sure,

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Speaker 1: she you know, when they put a camera in her face,

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Speaker 1: she answered into the interview, But who could have ever

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Speaker 1: imagined the way it would go viral, the way it

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Speaker 1: would blow up. And so by nature, I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit exploitative, and we should be talking

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Speaker 1: about that side of viral moments, not just how funny

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Speaker 1: they are, how pop culture zeitgeisty.

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Speaker 2: They are whatever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and also the people who like dosed her and

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Speaker 3: we're trying to find her job, like why like what

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Speaker 3: if those people did something else with their time?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you go on Twitter, you have all of

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Speaker 1: these people. I think a lot of them are bots,

439
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, purporting to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I found her only fans, or like, there was video

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Speaker 1: that I believe to be AI generated but don't quote

442
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 1: me on that, implying that they have found like uncensored

443
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 1: content of her online. It just really speaks to this

444
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: this cottage industry that is so common in our current

445
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 1: digital media climate, where when a woman kind of gets

446
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: a moment of stardom already, you have people who are

447
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 1: like in the woodwork trying to capitalize on that, trying

448
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, you know, how can I make

449
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: a pickfuck? How can I get a little engagement from

450
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: that too? And I think there's never been an easier

451
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: time to do that than right now.

452
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 3: Oh that's so interesting. I didn't appreciate that aspect of it,

453
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,120
Speaker 3: But it makes sense. I was thinking that these were

454
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 3: like moral skulls who were trying to sex shame her,

455
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 3: but it actually makes more sense that it's like bots

456
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 3: and scams.

457
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: It's bots and scams, like bots and scams twenty twenty four.

458
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: Don't give your credit card information to anybody. Somebody puts

459
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 1: her cam on your face, pull your hoody up.

460
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: And walk away. Just stay inside, Just stay inside.

461
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: So all of this leads me to a semi related

462
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 1: but not actually related incident, and I'm calling that the

463
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: ESPN ice cream incident. This one is actually really simple.

464
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 1: Two women go to a baseball game. They eat ice

465
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: cream cones. That's really it.

466
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,440
Speaker 2: Story over, end of sentence period.

467
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: Well not exactly, because ESPN decided to do a twenty

468
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: second segment that is just a close up of these

469
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 1: two young women eating ice cream, and they obviously don't

470
00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 1: know they're.

471
00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: Being filmed like this.

472
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: They don't they like that it's obvious that they don't

473
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: know that it's like a zooming in on their face

474
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: and on their mouths as they eat this ice cream

475
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 1: with commentary. The commentators are doing play by play commentary

476
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: of their ice cream looking the commentator is like, oh, yeah,

477
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: you gotta lick that liquid before it melts the whole thing.

478
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to pile on, but you

479
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: get the drift.

480
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: The video is published a TikTok and it honestly does

481
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 1: not take a genius to imagine what kind of comments

482
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: people are leaving on this video of two young women

483
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 1: eating ice cream. TikTok users start comparing the two young

484
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: women to h t Girl, including one named Corey Cadell,

485
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: who goes by airboats of Oklahoma saying I think hawk

486
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: twas about to get replaced. His video saying that got

487
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: over two hundred thousand views before he deleted his account

488
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: because one of the women in the video actually called

489
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: him out on TikTok. So one of the women who

490
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: was videoed eating ice cream at this baseball game spoke

491
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: up on TikTok. She said it was just a twenty

492
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 1: second segment of just eating ice cream or licking our

493
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 1: ice cream, And he said, twenty seconds dedicated with commentary

494
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: to just us eating our ice cream. We all knew

495
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: what direction that video was going to head it and

496
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: lo and behold, the creeps of TikTok got ahold of it.

497
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,880
Speaker 1: Because we woke up getting compared to the hawk twag girl,

498
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: which no shade to her.

499
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 2: Girl do whatever.

500
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: So I want to double click on that because I

501
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: don't think that she's trying to shame HT girl for

502
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 1: her viral moment, but just saying, like, what did her

503
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: viral moment had to do with me? I have nothing

504
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: to do with that other than I ate, other than like,

505
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 1: I'm a woman existing in public as well, and so yeah,

506
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: I think it's important that none of this is to sex.

507
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: Shame HT Girl, who actually gave very good oral sex advice.

508
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 2: But the whole thing.

509
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: Is just kind of gross, and I think it confirms

510
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: that women are considered fair game to have our behavior scrutinized,

511
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: surveiled and sexualized, even if we are not doing anything

512
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: inherently sexual. Yes, HT Girl decided to chime in for

513
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: that interview about oral sex, but even then, I don't

514
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: think it means that people should be able to comb

515
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: through her social media for her personal information and like

516
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: try to find out where she.

517
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 2: Works and all of that.

518
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: And the women at the baseball game, we're just eating

519
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: ice cream. Their only association with HT girl is that

520
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 1: they were all young women in public but that is

521
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: all it takes for somebody to decide that you are

522
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: fair game to be sexualized, even if you don't want

523
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: to be so. Annie, one of the women who was

524
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: eating ice cream on ESPN, said, it is beyond evidence

525
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: that women are not welcome in the sports world. We

526
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: just wanted to enjoy a baseball game and it was

527
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: one hundred degrees, so God forbid, be some ice cream.

528
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: It's like, we can't just sit and eat our food

529
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: in peace. And I really feel for Annie because she

530
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: says that at first she was kind of excited to

531
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: be to have this on camera moment because she's getting

532
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: texts from her friends who were like, hey, we see

533
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: you on TV.

534
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: But then she.

535
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: Says, but what's not a fun thing is to get

536
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: text messages from other friends of disgusting people making tiktoks

537
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: about you. There are so many comments just like this

538
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: one talking about ESPN does this every year. They always

539
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 1: pan it on a woman doing it. And it's true

540
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,960
Speaker 1: because what is fun You're than a woman? Licking an

541
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: ice cream cone or eating a hot dog are something

542
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: that can be overtly sexualized. And I think that she's

543
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: right that it really is about a deeper hostility to

544
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: women in spaces that are traditionally considered as like male dominated.

545
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: It reminds me of this other instance. It happened a

546
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: few years ago where I think it was a sorority.

547
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: So it was a group of.

548
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: Young women at a baseball game and there was a

549
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: moment where they all had their phones up and they

550
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: were all taking selfies of themselves, like posing, doing little

551
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: selfies whatever. There was a video that like zoomed in

552
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: on them, and the commentator was making it seem like

553
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: these girls were really vapid. He was like, Oh, look

554
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: at these girls, like trying to get the perfect self

555
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Really I think leaning on some negative

556
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: misogynistic tropes about women.

557
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 4: Right.

558
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: What he didn't say is that at the stadium, that

559
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: moment actually was a selfy moment. So like on the JumboTron,

560
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: it was like, let's have a five second selfie moment,

561
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: and so the JumboTron instructed the entire stadium to spend

562
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: minute getting selfies, and those women were doing exactly that,

563
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: and to make it seem like they specifically were doing

564
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 1: something that was like vapid just really put this misogynisticchine

565
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: on them doing totally normal behavior that in fact, the

566
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: baseball stadium asked them to do. And so I remember

567
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: these sorority women. They really had an eloquent clap back.

568
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 1: They were like, Oh, we were doing exactly what we

569
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: were instructed to do by the stadium. And if we're

570
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: so vapid, how come our sorority is actually has this

571
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: like massive service focus and like we do community service

572
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: projects all the goddamn time. So like this negative attitude

573
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: that the commentators had projected on it, they really did

574
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: a great job is exposing, like, yeah, it's just misogyny.

575
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: It's just hostility to women in male dominated spaces. Like

576
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: if I am not here to be sexually titillating you

577
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: by my public presence in this space, I am here

578
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 1: to be your punching bag for whatever misogynistic tropes you

579
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: feel like throwing out this day.

580
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: So I don't go to a ton of supporting events.

581
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: But apparently when you were sitting behind the dugout, like

582
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: these two young women eating ice cream on ESPN were,

583
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 1: there was always like a higher potential for being on camera,

584
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: but it was a very different thing.

585
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: Like being zoomed in on while licking an.

586
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: Ice cream cone the site Awful Announcing, which I did

587
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: not know that that a media entity existed to critical

588
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: analysis of sports announcing, but I'm glad it exists. They

589
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: also pointed out something which is that they say also

590
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: bizarre was the fact that the same broadcast briefly focused

591
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: on a woman eating a lollipop less than twenty minutes

592
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: after the ice cream incident. ESPN switched off the woman

593
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: eating a lollipop after about three seconds, but not before

594
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: the camera intentionally put her in focus.

595
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 4: Weird.

596
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's.

597
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: Weird, right, Yeah, I mean I feel like whoever was

598
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 3: directing the videography that day really had something on their mind.

599
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you come to watch a baseball game and

600
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: it turns into a who's licking?

601
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: What? A thon?

602
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: Yeah? Seriously, I feel like you or I don't remember

603
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: if you were quoting Annie, really nailed it by you know,

604
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: it's just an opportunity for casual misogyny and sexualization, which

605
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: I guess in the repertoire of this videographer maybe lots

606
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: of sports people who are, like, you know, directing where

607
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: the camera goes to. I feel like they're always looking

608
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: for something interesting to put on screen. Like oh, a

609
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: cute baby, or like a guy eating a messy hot

610
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 3: dog or a guy dancing or something. And it's unfortunate

611
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: that casual misogyny and non consensual sexualization are in that

612
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: same mix of like fun tropes to put on the JumboTron.

613
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, well said.

614
00:29:47,760 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 5: More after a quick break, get right back into it.

615
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: And again the way that some of the people, not

616
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: the announcers, because the announcers were not the ones comparing

617
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: her to HT girl, but the way that commentators on TikTok,

618
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: like that guy who deleted his account after being called

619
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 1: out by one of these young women, The way that

620
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: they engage in this sexual fantasy world building, right, using

621
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: this twenty second video of women doing something totally humdrum

622
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: to build out this sexualized fantasy world around these women

623
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: what they might be like sexually based on like a

624
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: twenty second clip of them mining their business.

625
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: You know, it's all world building.

626
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we might really go out of our way

627
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: to be super generous to ESPN and the people who

628
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: made this choice to put those women on there on

629
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 3: the screen, Like maybe twenty years ago that would have

630
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 3: hit one way, like still not great, but maybe not

631
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: like the worst thing. But in this new cond that

632
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: we live in where something like that is going to

633
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 3: end up on the Internet, and even the most subtle,

634
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 3: non overt wink to sexualization once it gets on the

635
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: Internet is fodder for this sexual fantasy world building that

636
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 3: you're describing and opens the people up to a level

637
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: of scrutiny that far exceeds what might have been possible,

638
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: you know, twenty years ago during a television broadcast of

639
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: a game.

640
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: This is kind of unrelated, but that's actually how creeps

641
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: circumvent AI guardrails to create sexualized, non consensual deep thinks.

642
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: So when those AI deep fix of Taylor Swift, which

643
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: depicted her at a sporting event, when those were going viral,

644
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: the way that creeps generated them, because you can't just

645
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: go onto an AI image generator and say, like, show

646
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: me a depiction of a famous person doing a sex act.

647
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: What they did was they said, like, show me an

648
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: image of Taylor Swift eating a hot dog or eating

649
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: an ice cream, doing something that would look kind of

650
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: sexual if you doctored it. And then and so they

651
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: were getting those images that would depict an image of

652
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift doing something a certain kind of way you

653
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, and then edit those images to

654
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: make them look more sexual. So it's interesting to me

655
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: how whether or not it's using AI or it's just

656
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: like this is an image of a woman eating a

657
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: hot dog or an ice cream. Creeps are going to

658
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: do some sexual world building around that regardless. And that

659
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: world bringing really brings me to the last instance that

660
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about, which happened on a plane.

661
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: So a woman on TikTok named Caroline Renette posted a

662
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: TikTok of a man talking to a woman with the

663
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: caption if this man is your husband flying at United

664
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: Airlines flight twenty one to forty from Houston to New York,

665
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: He's probably going to be staying with Katie tonight.

666
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: She says.

667
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: This man met a woman at the airport bar, convinced

668
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 1: her to change seats with somebody else on the plane

669
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: so they could spend the flight drinking together. Apparently they

670
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: were going on and on talking about his job. His

671
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: eight year old daughter. Renette says, I wouldn't have known

672
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: this man married had he not been marrying his wedding ring.

673
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: Do your thing.

674
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: TikTok pashtag by the wife less than twenty four hours

675
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: goes by Internet flutes got everybody, They got the man,

676
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: they got the woman. Everybody involved has been identified. They

677
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: tagged the woman's TikTok account, posted details about when the

678
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: guy's plane landed, shared photos of the couple, their family,

679
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: and other people were actually suggesting that they do the

680
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 1: same for the woman, Katie, who allegedly was the woman

681
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: this guy was talking to. So I gotta say this.

682
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: I saw a lot of people cheering this whole thing on, right,

683
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 1: But I think we got to keep it real about

684
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: content like this. I don't think that the people who

685
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 1: make this kind of content are just trying to be

686
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: like girls girls giving a girl a heads up, you know,

687
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: out of the goodness of their heart. Maybe that's a

688
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,719
Speaker 1: little bit of a part of it, but let us

689
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: be real. These people are making content. They are trying

690
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: to get engagement. This is something that is tailor made

691
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: to get people buzzing and engaged in with that online.

692
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: That is what they are seeking. They are inviting strangers

693
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: into the dramas and the real lives of other people

694
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: completely uninvited. These people are not characters in some fan fiction.

695
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: They are actual human beings who have jobs, and kids

696
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: and communities. It would be one thing if Reneed had

697
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: tried to find this woman and like DMD her, but

698
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: inviting the entire internet millions of strangers into it is

699
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: a totally different thing.

700
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: The cut put it really.

701
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: Well, they write, Renette's video makes certain assumptions that plain

702
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 1: guy is in a monogamous marriage, that his wife would

703
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: be grateful to see his behavior publicly exposed, and that

704
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: such a transgression warrant strangers posting her personal information online.

705
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: But at a time when ethical non monogamy and polyamory

706
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: are on the rise, not every fort with a wedding

707
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: rings crossing a line. We don't know what rules a

708
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,280
Speaker 1: plain guy and his abide by on their personal lives. Besides,

709
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 1: if Rened really cared about this woman's well being, why

710
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: not track her down and send her a private DM Instead?

711
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: The video strips of plain Guy's wife of any agency,

712
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: reducing her to a homogram onto which people can project

713
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: their own baggage. While an online sisterhood has formed around

714
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: the wife, it's unclear whether she wants that camaraderie. She

715
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: hasn't recorded her own video expressing gratitude toward Reneed and

716
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: the Internet slouths or responding to any of the comments

717
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: who have tagged her. Instead, she's been silent, her TikTok

718
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,720
Speaker 1: account set to private.

719
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, what a terrible experience for her. I totally agree

720
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,800
Speaker 3: with that this is way out of line.

721
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: And I think it comes down to people like projecting

722
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 1: themselves into this situation. And I think because this particular

723
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 1: situation involves morality, cheating, and sex, it makes it easier

724
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: for people to weigh in on I guess, or juicier

725
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: for people to weigh in.

726
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: I guess I should say yes.

727
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 3: And you know that piece from the cut noted that

728
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 3: it reduces the agency of the wife to like a

729
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 3: non actor. She has no agency in this story. So

730
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 3: this whole narrative is also building on misogyny and the

731
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: idea of her as like a dutiful wife left at

732
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: home while her cheating husband is out living it up

733
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 3: in the world. It just really smacks of those same

734
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 3: tropes and I think requires them exactly.

735
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: And you know, I have been cheated on myself. I

736
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: know that it's a charged space, to say the least.

737
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: And I think that what we're seeing is a lot

738
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: of people projecting their own feelings and their own situations.

739
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: On the people that they've ever met.

740
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: And again, that is that flattens out this wife into

741
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: just something to hang your projections onto.

742
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: And she's a human being, not to mention a fucking stranger.

743
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: She would probably prefer to not be the subject of

744
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 3: national discourse about how her husband is cheating on her.

745
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 4: Oh.

746
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And you know, there were a lot of comments

747
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: on TikTok being like, oh, I wish that when my

748
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: partner was cheating, that somebody had done this for me

749
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, is that do you really wish that?

750
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: Do you really wish.

751
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: That millions and millions of people would know every aspect

752
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: of your of your personal business with your husband, not

753
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: to mention your job, your boss, your coworkers, your family

754
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: and all have an opinion on it, Like, really think

755
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: about what you're saying. Is that actually what you wish

756
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: somebody would do? Probably not right?

757
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, And do you want to have a conversation with

758
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: your eight year old daughter about it.

759
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: When somebody brings it up to her at school like, oh,

760
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: because people were digging into their families, so it's like, oh,

761
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: I saw a picture of you and your dad on TikTok.

762
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: Herd's cheating on your mom on a plane, Like, is

763
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: that really? Is that really what you wishould happen?

764
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: Probably not.

765
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, And like you mentioned, this has nothing to do

766
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 3: with Rennet, the woman who made the video trying to

767
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 3: genuinely help out the woman who is allegedly being cheated on,

768
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 3: and it's just all about her getting clicked for herself.

769
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's possible there is some

770
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: aspect of her that is like I hate cheaters, blah

771
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: blah blah. But I think that we gotta be real

772
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: that we're not like this idea that it is a

773
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: digital sisterhood. I just really reject that. I don't think

774
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: that that is what's really going on here. You know,

775
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: it really doesn't sit right with me because, you know what,

776
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: my sister wouldn't do. My sister probably wouldn't publicly blow

777
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: up my life in a way that now everybody, my

778
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: whole community and a bunch of strangers now get to

779
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: have an opinion on it.

780
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 3: It reminds me of in a corporate office when you're

781
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: sitting down for like an all staff meeting and the

782
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 3: CEO is going on and on about how we're all

783
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 3: a family, and it's like we're not a family. People

784
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 3: get fired from this company all the time, like and

785
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: that's fine, it's a workplace, but it's not a family.

786
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 3: This idea of a digital sisterhood feels very much like that,

787
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: where like, oh, we're all sisters here unless you screw up,

788
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 3: and then you're gonna be on like the outs, the

789
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 3: receiving end of all this negative attention because actually it's

790
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: not about solidarity or sisterly feelings at all.

791
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, I would actually argue that it's not about sisterly

792
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: feelings and it's really about individual come upance.

793
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: And like, I think that.

794
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of people who have gotten involved

795
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: in this narrative. They are at once the sluts who

796
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: have like assigned characters out of these strangers that they

797
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 1: don't even know, and then they have projected this jilted

798
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: wife story onto this situation while also kind of recasting

799
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: themselves as the jilted wife.

800
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: So I think it's a lot of people who are

801
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: like I have been cheated on.

802
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 1: It sucks, I want to kind of get my vengeance

803
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: by playing that out in the lives of these strangers.

804
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: And it really reminded me of this research paper that

805
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: came out in twenty twenty called TikTok and the Algorithmized Self,

806
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: where the researchers basically argue that TikTok is unique from

807
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: other social media platforms because it is less about connecting

808
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,240
Speaker 1: with a network of friends and more a site built

809
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: on quote a public performance heavily built on interpersonal engagement

810
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: while creating content for an algorithm. And so essentially it's

811
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: this like big digital sandbox that invites make belief. They write,

812
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: the unplanned back and forth motion between creators makes the

813
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: app an incredible social playground. TikTok users play and perform

814
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: in simulated characters and setting. The video app is an

815
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 1: escape from reality. So basically all of these people are

816
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: using these strangers and their lives to play out little

817
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: dramas that they also get to be very invested in.

818
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's even juicier because who doesn't like

819
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: getting to be the morality police around it? To get

820
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: to like really moralize and scrutinize and judge.

821
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: The behavior of people you don't even know.

822
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: Everybody loves that, Like, it's the that's like the basis

823
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: of so much on the Internet, And so I understand

824
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: why it's kind of irresistible, but also people need to

825
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: understand that this is real people's lives that they're dealing with,

826
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: people who don't even know.

827
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, wouldn't it be nice if people could just like

828
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: the privacy of consenting adults.

829
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: Wouldn't it be nice?

830
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: So the whole situation reminded me of this phenomenon that

831
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: we've talked about on the podcast before that. Doctor Jenna Drinton,

832
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 1: Associate Professor of Marketing in the Quinlan School of Business

833
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 1: at Loyal University Chicago who studies social media behavior, dubbed

834
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: the TikTok tabloid, in which we are all players and

835
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: characters in a tabloid magazine. Because of TikTok, she writes,

836
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: users collectively manufacture and dramatized stories like an investigative gossip reel.

837
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: Traditional tabloids place the lurid limelight on celebrities and public figures,

838
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: but the TikTok tabloids target everyday people, you know. Doctor

839
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Denton points out how all of these devices like oh,

840
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: we're having a Part two and having going to be cliphangers,

841
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: all of this is sort of these dangling of tantalizing

842
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: bits of stories where it really invites the listener or

843
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: the watcher to like continue to give their engagement and

844
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: to follow along and get involved. And of course, the

845
00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: more of this content that we consume, the more we

846
00:41:59,080 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: are training algorithm.

847
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: That is the kind of content that we want to

848
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: see and engage with. You know.

849
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: It's this constant cycle that I really deeply.

850
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: Think we need to be moving away from.

851
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: And to me, it all comes down to consent, right Like,

852
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 1: HT girl might have volunteered to have that moment on

853
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: the street, But first of all, was she sober? Because

854
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: I feel like you can't really consent to something if

855
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: you're drinking. Could she even fully consent to what actually

856
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: ended up happening with it blowing up the way that

857
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: it did. You know, I'm curious to hear other folks'

858
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: opinions about that, but I would argue no, you know,

859
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: by buying a ticket behind the dugout at a baseball

860
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: game and then eating an ice cream cone, these women

861
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: on ESPN did not consent to getting a flood of

862
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 1: sexualized messages on social media, you know. And the woman

863
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 1: whose husband was taking a flight talking to another woman

864
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: on that fight certainly did not consent to having strangers

865
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: publicly invite themselves into her marriage. And you know, the

866
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: Internet has connected us in new ways that we never

867
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: dreamed possible.

868
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: But I will die on.

869
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: The till maybe we all should be okay with just

870
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 1: knowing a little bit less about each other. Got a

871
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want

872
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: to say hi? You can reach us at Hello at

873
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: tangodi dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's

874
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No Girls on

875
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. It's a

876
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative Jonathan Strickland is our

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Speaker 1: executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 1: If you want to help us grow, rate and.

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Speaker 4: Review us on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.