WEBVTT - Patriot Front Goes to Court

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey everybody, and welcome back to you It Could Happen

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<v Speaker 2>Here show about the ways things are falling apart. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>welcome back to you the listener. Welcome to me, your

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<v Speaker 2>guest host. I'm Molly Conger, filling in for James for

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<v Speaker 2>a few weeks. If you're happy to be hearing my voice,

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<v Speaker 2>feel free to share that feedback anywhere you post online.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're upset about the state of affairs, I suggest

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<v Speaker 2>writing your congressional representative or mailing a cryptic postcard to

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<v Speaker 2>your local ATA field office. As your guest host, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>try to bring you the It could Happen Here content

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<v Speaker 2>you know and love. Dispatches from the front lines of

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<v Speaker 2>our dystopia updates on the people trying to unravel society

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<v Speaker 2>as we know it, and what's being done to stop

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<v Speaker 2>the rising tide that threatens to swallow us all. Today,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm joined by a Garrison, and I'm going to tell

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<v Speaker 2>them a little bit about what's been going on with

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<v Speaker 2>Patriot Front.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello, Patriot Front, fantastic one of the gayer groups of

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<v Speaker 3>Nazis operating in the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just guys being dudes. Garrison, you wouldn't.

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<v Speaker 3>Understand, I certainly wouldn't know.

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<v Speaker 2>You may remember a Patriot Front from such iconic moments

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<v Speaker 2>as getting arrested en mass at a gay Pride event

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<v Speaker 2>and Idaho in twenty twenty two, having their internal calms

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<v Speaker 2>leaked repeatedly nearly nearly constantly, constantly, including some videos of

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<v Speaker 2>questionably sensual pad downs, or accidentally giving several members mild

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<v Speaker 2>carbon monoxide poisoning by forcing them to ride in the

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<v Speaker 2>back of the U haul truck. You've probably seen their

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<v Speaker 2>stickers on a trash can in your local downtown, or

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<v Speaker 2>maybe you've driven by a racist banner drop. But when

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<v Speaker 2>all is sudden done, hopefully you'll only remember them as

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<v Speaker 2>having been sued into the center of the Earth, which

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<v Speaker 2>is what I want to talk to you about today.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh all right, that's I I'm unbelievably excited.

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<v Speaker 2>We won't be getting into the sensual pat downs. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>this is just court records.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, well, I can always I can always find that

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<v Speaker 3>on telegram. That's fine.

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<v Speaker 2>But before we get into who is suing Patriot Front,

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<v Speaker 2>let's get a quick refresher on who they are and

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<v Speaker 2>how they came to be scurrying around and matching windbreakers

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<v Speaker 2>promoting a white no state because they think their origin

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<v Speaker 2>story really informs the way they've backed themselves into this corner.

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<v Speaker 2>Patriot Front came into existence in late twenty seventeen when

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<v Speaker 2>it splintered off the now defunct neo Nazi group Vanguard America.

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<v Speaker 2>The split was months in the making, with a power

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<v Speaker 2>struggle brewing between Vanguard America leader Dylan Hopper and a

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<v Speaker 2>young up and coming fascist named Thomas Rousseau, who was

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<v Speaker 2>at that time barely out of high school. In the

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<v Speaker 2>months leading up to the Unite the Right rally in

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<v Speaker 2>Charlottesville in August twenty seventeen, Rousseau edged Hopper out of

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<v Speaker 2>his own organization in what Hopper called a literal coup.

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<v Speaker 2>By the time Vanguard America was marching in the streets

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<v Speaker 2>of Charlottesville, Rousseau was not only in control of the

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<v Speaker 2>group's internal communications, he was calling the shots on the ground.

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<v Speaker 2>Hopper didn't even attend, and it was that event they

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<v Speaker 2>Unite the Right rally that birthed Patriot Front. In those

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<v Speaker 2>chaotic morning hours of August twelfth, twenty seventeen, a young

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<v Speaker 2>man named James Alex Fields Junior joined the men under

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<v Speaker 2>Russeau's command. He didn't ride with the core group from

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<v Speaker 2>Texas in their rented van, which they called the hate bus.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my, did they really call it the hate bus?

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<v Speaker 2>Rousseau was back then he was sort of Asthmador's protege.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know that they'll claim that now, but back

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<v Speaker 2>then at like this adult alcoholic Nazi was mentoring this

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<v Speaker 2>fascist team like he was. He had just graduated HIZ.

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<v Speaker 3>Many such cases.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so they came up in the hate bus. But

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<v Speaker 2>all right, mcfields drove here alone. He drove overnight from Ohio,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was wearing the group's uniform, a white polo

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<v Speaker 2>khaki pants and carrying a shield bearing Vanguard's logo. He

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<v Speaker 2>joined in with the members of Vanguard America as they

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<v Speaker 2>loitered around a public park chanting Nazi slogans. Field stood

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<v Speaker 2>shoulder to shoulder and a line of Vanguard members guarding

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<v Speaker 2>the entrance to the park where the rally was to

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<v Speaker 2>be held, preventing counter protesters from entering. A few hours later,

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<v Speaker 2>after the rally had been called off by the state

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<v Speaker 2>police declaring an unlawful assembly, Fields drove his Dodge Challenger

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<v Speaker 2>into a crowd of counter protesters, killing Heather Higher and

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<v Speaker 2>injuring dozens of others. In later litigation, Dylan Hopper, responding

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<v Speaker 2>for Vanguard America, was asked about his immediate reaction to

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<v Speaker 2>hearing about the attack that afternoon. In the group's discord,

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<v Speaker 2>Hopper posted, Commi's died. That's good enough for me. This was,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, before he'd seen the photos of the murderer

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<v Speaker 2>mingling with his hate group. In a deposition three years later,

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't disavow that initial reaction. He said Heather Higher's

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<v Speaker 2>death was a tragedy the same way it would be

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<v Speaker 2>tragic if a surfer who knowingly entered shark infested waters

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<v Speaker 2>was killed by a shark, saying it was that woman's

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<v Speaker 2>choice to be there. But he maintained that Fields was

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<v Speaker 2>never a member of the group, that anyone could have

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<v Speaker 2>put on a white polo and stood near them in

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<v Speaker 2>the park, that anyone could have handed Fields that shield.

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<v Speaker 2>His testimony was that Vanguard America didn't actually have membership list,

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<v Speaker 2>there was no official record who was a member, but

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<v Speaker 2>he somehow also knew that Fields was not a member.

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<v Speaker 2>In that twenty twenty deposition, he claimed that he spoke

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<v Speaker 2>to Rousseau in the days after the rally, and Rousseau

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<v Speaker 2>admitted that he had been the one to make the

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<v Speaker 2>choice to allow Fields to march with them in an

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<v Speaker 2>attempt to make the group appear larger than it really was,

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<v Speaker 2>and Fields himself never claimed to be a member of

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<v Speaker 2>the organization. In his federal sentencing memo, his defense attorney

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<v Speaker 2>wrote that he'd never been a member of any organized group,

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<v Speaker 2>but the damage to Vanguard America was done, and almost

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<v Speaker 2>every photo of Fields taken that morning, just hours before

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<v Speaker 2>he committed a hate crime murder that would send him

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<v Speaker 2>to prison for the rest of his life, he certainly

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<v Speaker 2>looks like he's with them. The night after the rally,

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<v Speaker 2>as Rousseau was still trying to make his way home

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<v Speaker 2>to Texas, he posted in the Vanguard Discord about the

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<v Speaker 2>issue with the man who ran into protesters with his car.

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<v Speaker 2>He was certainly not a member and none of us

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<v Speaker 2>know him. Our shields were given widely to anyone at

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<v Speaker 2>the rally, and we had many extras. There is no

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<v Speaker 2>criminal conspiracy but handing a person a piece of wood

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<v Speaker 2>and agreeing on fashion. Legally, we have been in contact

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<v Speaker 2>with folks with legal experience and we're fine as far

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<v Speaker 2>as pr Yes, it's bad, but last week they called

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<v Speaker 2>us evil, white supremacist Nazi killers, and today they're calling

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<v Speaker 2>us the same thing. Shrug it off. When members complained

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<v Speaker 2>that they shouldn't be disavowing the actions of the murderer,

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<v Speaker 2>Rousseau clarified that quote. The statement never said that what

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<v Speaker 2>he did was wrong, just clarified that he wasn't a member.

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<v Speaker 2>People aren't buying it anyway. So neither Russo nor Hopper

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<v Speaker 2>were willing to say what Fields did should not have happened.

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<v Speaker 2>They didn't disavow the murder. Hopper's comments seemed genuinely supportive

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<v Speaker 2>of the murder. They were willing to cheer on the bloodshed,

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<v Speaker 2>but the way the blood looked on their own hands

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<v Speaker 2>was going to be a pr problem. Now for me,

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<v Speaker 2>the whole Nazi thing is kind of a deal breaker

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<v Speaker 2>from the start branding wise, Like, just from the jump,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a branding issue. There's an eagle, there's a fascies,

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<v Speaker 2>there's the blood and soil thing. It it's not a

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<v Speaker 2>good look.

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<v Speaker 3>Could you briefly explain what a fascianes is?

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<v Speaker 2>So it is a bundle of sticks, right, It's an

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<v Speaker 2>old Roman symbol right, right, it comes from you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the Roman Empire. So it's this very you know, return

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<v Speaker 2>to tradition. Mussolini brought it back.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and like you can break one stick pretty easily,

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<v Speaker 3>but if they're all bundled together, then's then and it's

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<v Speaker 3>then it's harder to break apes together.

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<v Speaker 2>Strong. Yeah, sorry, just so the preview for the new

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<v Speaker 2>Planet of the Apes. But that's not the issue for

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<v Speaker 2>them in this twenty seventeen rebrand, Right, it's the Nazi thing,

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<v Speaker 2>not the deal breaker, But it's hard to shake the

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<v Speaker 2>association with a hate crime murder was a member, but

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<v Speaker 2>the pictures of the murderer holding your logo and standing

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<v Speaker 2>right next to you are going to follow you. So

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<v Speaker 2>just three weeks after the rally, Thomas Rousseau announced in

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<v Speaker 2>the Vanguard America Discord that he was launching a full rebrand,

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<v Speaker 2>calling the new group Patriots Front. That s gets dropped later,

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<v Speaker 2>but Patriots Front.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that is a way worse name. Yeah, Patriots Front.

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<v Speaker 3>To say that is that it's really hard to say.

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<v Speaker 2>They've not possessive either. There's no apostrophe. It's just like

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<v Speaker 2>Patriots Front.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, that's weird. They made a good call.

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<v Speaker 2>Drop in that s so they really fine tuned it

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<v Speaker 2>there in the end.

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<v Speaker 3>That was the only the only good thing they've done

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<v Speaker 3>besides just keep getting arrested.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, so the message wasn't changed, The ideology is

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<v Speaker 2>not changing. The manifesto got a little fresh polish, but

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<v Speaker 2>the real change was optics. Russeau recognized the need for

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<v Speaker 2>broader appeal, for new recruits and for plausible deniability on

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<v Speaker 2>the group's surface. You can get away with saying a

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<v Speaker 2>lot more Nazi shit if you put an American flag

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<v Speaker 2>on the hats and a founding father on the homepage,

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<v Speaker 2>then you can. If you're sporting a son and rat

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<v Speaker 2>and posting Hitler.

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<v Speaker 3>Memes, Yeah, all of their their kind of outwards visual

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<v Speaker 3>style is all very like American. It is it is,

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<v Speaker 3>it is. It is American. There's a bit of like

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<v Speaker 3>a military kind of kind of a cleanliness to it,

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<v Speaker 3>but it's very much like they're going full Americana.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it's it's. It's Americana. It's like Patriot kitch, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it's a few ten signs away from being a Fudruckers.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah, but it's it's it's very much not

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<v Speaker 3>like German Nazi it's like, right, it's like USA with

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<v Speaker 3>some like US Army signifiers that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>But the you know, the sentiment behind it is the same.

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<v Speaker 2>You can take away the black eagle and the fascie like.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually they kept the fascies. It's just red, white and blue.

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<v Speaker 3>Now USA all the way, baby, I mean to be fair.

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<v Speaker 2>It's money to be fair.

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<v Speaker 3>The United States of America also uses a fascie.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not like, you know, crying for the sullying of

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<v Speaker 2>the of the branding of the United States in America.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's clear what the intention was here. Yes, it's

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<v Speaker 2>to sort of hide behind that Americana.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the six and a half years since that rebrand,

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Rousseau has maintained tight personal control over the entire group,

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<v Speaker 2>now called Patriot Front. You can almost read that as

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<v Speaker 2>a reaction to his first major setback as a white

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<v Speaker 2>supremacist organizer. You know, he'd led some smaller rallies in

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<v Speaker 2>Texas before Unite the Right, but that was his first

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<v Speaker 2>big day out commanding the Nazi group, right, and as

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<v Speaker 2>a result of that day, the entire group was tarnished

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<v Speaker 2>by the association of you know, in their telling some

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<v Speaker 2>random guy who was just near them, we.

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<v Speaker 3>Just happened to hang out with people who like doing murders,

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<v Speaker 3>you know.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Like it goes like what Hopper was saying

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<v Speaker 2>in his deposition, right, like, well, she was in shark

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<v Speaker 2>infested waters. Like, by your own admission, you are the sharks. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you're saying that you are a flesh eating shark. But

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<v Speaker 2>that's not possible anymore now, right, So you can't just

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<v Speaker 2>be some guy who's marching with Patriot Front because their

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<v Speaker 2>events are never announced ahead of time. You have to

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<v Speaker 2>get the official group merch from the group after being

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<v Speaker 2>interviewed and vetted. You can't just show up and march

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<v Speaker 2>with them unless you're a member, because only members know

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<v Speaker 2>when the events are going to be. Yeah, there's no

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<v Speaker 2>chance that some unvetted hangar on is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>standing near them. And that does solve the problem posed

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<v Speaker 2>by someone like James Fields, but it creates a new problem,

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<v Speaker 2>real legal liability. By establishing so clearly and so firmly

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<v Speaker 2>that anybody who's marching with you, wearing your hat and

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<v Speaker 2>your jacket, following your orders through the megaphone, you have

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<v Speaker 2>established that all of those people answer to you, and

0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:56.160
<v Speaker 2>you know them, and you approve that they were there.

0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Now you're responsible.

0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you make the classic mistake of having an actual

0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:02.800
<v Speaker 3>official like members.

0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.240
<v Speaker 2>List, right, so now you no longer have the option

0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.000
<v Speaker 2>of saying, well, that guy wasn't with us, we don't

0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.120
<v Speaker 2>know him. And that's where the lawsuits enter the picture.

0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.319
<v Speaker 2>So right now there are three active federal lawsuits against

0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.079
<v Speaker 2>Patriot Front, one in Virginia, one in Massachusetts, and one

0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.880
<v Speaker 2>in North Dakota. And the underlying actions and some of

0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.400
<v Speaker 2>the claims vary, but all three lawsuits are making the

0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:27.120
<v Speaker 2>same central claim, a section nineteen eighty five complaint alleging

0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:29.600
<v Speaker 2>a conspiracy by Patriot Front and its members to deprive

0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.800
<v Speaker 2>the plaintiffs of their civil rights. And I think it's

0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:34.920
<v Speaker 2>really interesting. This is dry as hell. Maybe that's only

0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.600
<v Speaker 2>interesting to me that I think it's really interesting to

0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.360
<v Speaker 2>look at the original context of that statute, right that

0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.440
<v Speaker 2>code section It comes out of the Enforcement Act of

0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.040
<v Speaker 2>eighteen seventy one. Are you familiar with the Enforcement Acts

0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:49.360
<v Speaker 2>going going into deep civil.

0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.640
<v Speaker 3>War lore, you know, to reconstruction. I'm Canadian, I don't

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.080
<v Speaker 3>the American legal system is, but something I've been learning

0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.800
<v Speaker 3>the past ten years. It is by no means the

0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.120
<v Speaker 3>specialty of my research or knowledge.

0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm not like a big Civil war guy. You know.

0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.680
<v Speaker 2>I have accidentally and against my will, learned a lot

0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:11.760
<v Speaker 2>about the Civil War because we've been arguing about these

0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.959
<v Speaker 2>statues for a few years. Sure, but reconstruction, I think

0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:16.080
<v Speaker 2>is really overlooked.

0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:16.160
<v Speaker 3>You.

0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:18.000
<v Speaker 2>In my own education in public school, there was like

0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.120
<v Speaker 2>two paragraphs about reconstruction and then we just sort of

0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:20.720
<v Speaker 2>like moved on.

0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.040
<v Speaker 3>I had like a semester on it. It is certainly

0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.400
<v Speaker 3>one of the more tragic periods of American history. How

0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.160
<v Speaker 3>we seem to almost have figured something out and then

0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:31.840
<v Speaker 3>it all went down the drain pretty quill.

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:34.719
<v Speaker 2>Like we really whiffed it. But the Enforcement Act of

0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:38.000
<v Speaker 2>eighteen seventy one is also called the ku Klux Klan Act.

0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh oh oh, yeah, these guys, we're getting somewhere. So

0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.360
<v Speaker 2>when President Grant signed the KKK Act into law in

0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.840
<v Speaker 2>eighteen seventy one, support for reconstruction was starting to falter,

0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:51.680
<v Speaker 2>and there was genuine fear that the eighteen seventy two

0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.079
<v Speaker 2>presidential election would bring on a new wave of clan

0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.079
<v Speaker 2>violence in the South. And that's starting to sound a

0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.400
<v Speaker 2>little familiar, isn't it. You know, people are getting tired,

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:03.120
<v Speaker 2>getting tired of being asked to address deep rooted, systemic inequalities.

0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.720
<v Speaker 2>There's an upcoming and uncertain presidential election. There's growing fear

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.880
<v Speaker 2>of vigilanti violence by roving bands of masked racists. You know,

0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:12.760
<v Speaker 2>like everything old is new again. That sounds like kind

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.840
<v Speaker 2>of like right now, Yeah, that's wild. So you know,

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.199
<v Speaker 2>there have been other enforcement acts. This wasn't the first one,

0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.800
<v Speaker 2>but the ku Klux Klan Act was specifically tailored to

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.320
<v Speaker 2>address the question of freelance violence. Right, So, normally, if

0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>you are suing over a civil rights violation, there are

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:30.760
<v Speaker 2>only remedies available to you when your rights have been

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 2>violated by a state actor, a cop, a government body,

0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 2>the law itself.

0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.280
<v Speaker 3>The irs. You can really.

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:39.440
<v Speaker 2>Only seek legal remedy when your rights are violated by

0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.240
<v Speaker 2>the state. This one's a little different because during reconstruction,

0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:47.040
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that violence, the intimidation, the actions being

0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.720
<v Speaker 2>taken to deprive Black Americans of their newly granted rights,

0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 2>was being undertaken by private actors organizing together. Again, it's

0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:55.360
<v Speaker 2>starting to feel familiar.

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's not like there could be groups of armed

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.760
<v Speaker 3>extremists uttering voting sites, trying to scare people away from

0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 3>from voting in an election that could never happen.

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.000
<v Speaker 2>Now we've learned no lessons, right, So groups of white

0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:14.720
<v Speaker 2>men organizing themselves wearing matching outfits, conspiring to undertake actions

0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:16.760
<v Speaker 2>to intimidate, harass, and harm the people they believe that

0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.840
<v Speaker 2>are standing between them and the white America they were

0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 2>born to run, right. Yeah, So the statute originally provided

0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.400
<v Speaker 2>for both civil and criminal liability for these conspiracies. Interesting,

0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 2>and that first year Grant went hard in the paint

0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:34.520
<v Speaker 2>with it. Oh like, he went full hog like. As

0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 2>soon as he signed this into law, he was red

0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.680
<v Speaker 2>d So in that first year or two after he

0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.200
<v Speaker 2>signed the act, he broke the back of the Klan.

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 2>Hundreds of klansmen were prosecuted in South Carolina alone. They

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 2>were arresting so many clansmen so quickly that hundreds of

0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.480
<v Speaker 2>them just went to their local courthouse and turned themselves

0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:52.680
<v Speaker 2>in because they knew it was coming.

0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, it killed the Klan. Wow.

0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>But even before the Supreme Court decided twelve years later

0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.520
<v Speaker 2>that I mean, when it comes to the crime part

0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.880
<v Speaker 2>of this, maybe we should let the States handle it right, Ah,

0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:08.800
<v Speaker 2>so it no longer has a criminal liability component, so

0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 2>that's just the civil liability left under that law. But

0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 2>even before the Supreme Court made that ruling in eighteen

0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.880
<v Speaker 2>eighty three, the Klan Act prosecutions pretty much ended when

0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 2>reconstruction died, right. It was this brief moment in time

0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.640
<v Speaker 2>when there was any appetite to do anything about this, Yeah,

0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.120
<v Speaker 2>and it faded out pretty quickly. So today it's up

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:28.040
<v Speaker 2>to the victim to seek their own civil remedy when

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 2>they're terrorized by the sons of the clansmen.

0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:35.840
<v Speaker 3>We couldn't reconstruct, well, do you know what we should construct, Molly?

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh god, Yeah. Robert told me that if I don't

0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 2>come up with a cool way to throw to ads,

0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:41.880
<v Speaker 2>he's going to put me in a dog kennel and

0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.840
<v Speaker 2>air drop me onto an island where successful podcasters hunt

0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>people like me for sports.

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 3>So that does sound like something he would say. But

0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:51.000
<v Speaker 3>we could construct a compelling ad transition.

0:15:52.720 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Let's take it to the ads, all right, and we

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.240
<v Speaker 2>are back Garrison, and I'm going to tell you what's

0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:09.560
<v Speaker 2>in these lawsuits.

0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 3>I'm so excited to hear about Patriot Front having to

0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.040
<v Speaker 3>read a niche law.

0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, the problem is they're pretending they don't have to.

0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:25.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh well, that is also what I would do. I

0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.080
<v Speaker 3>would be like, no, no way, I am not reading that.

0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:28.560
<v Speaker 3>Fuck you.

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, we'll get to that in a second. So the

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.640
<v Speaker 2>first case filed was in Richmond, Virginia, so right here

0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:35.479
<v Speaker 2>in my backyard.

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 3>All right.

0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.560
<v Speaker 2>So, thanks to repeated leaks of Patriot Front's internal communications

0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.760
<v Speaker 2>and documents, we actually have video of them doing what's

0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:44.720
<v Speaker 2>being alleged in this lawsuit.

0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.680
<v Speaker 3>Which is inconvenient for them.

0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.200
<v Speaker 2>It's not great. So the suit alleges and the video

0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.680
<v Speaker 2>literally shows that. In October twenty twenty one, a couple

0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.200
<v Speaker 2>of Patriot Front members vandalized a mural in a public

0:16:55.240 --> 0:17:00.000
<v Speaker 2>park in Richmond. The mural celebrated American tennis legend Arthur Ash.

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.160
<v Speaker 2>Ash was born and raised in Richmond and started playing

0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.320
<v Speaker 2>tennis as a child in Brookfield Park, which in the

0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.320
<v Speaker 2>fifties when Ash was a child, was one of the

0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.920
<v Speaker 2>few public parks opened to black residents. It was also

0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.640
<v Speaker 2>the park that his father was the caretaker of. Right,

0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.480
<v Speaker 2>So Arthur ash Richmond public parks like this is a

0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:18.120
<v Speaker 2>relationship from his childhood.

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like a very important place.

0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:21.720
<v Speaker 2>He's you know, one of the best tennis players in

0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.159
<v Speaker 2>American history. And he grew up his father worked for

0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.200
<v Speaker 2>the park. He learned to play tennis at that park.

0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 2>That park, Brookfield Park, actually no longer exists, but the

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 2>park where the mural was installed is in a predominantly

0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:33.359
<v Speaker 2>black neighborhood.

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:33.879
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.120
<v Speaker 2>In the video they filmed of the vandalism, one Patriot

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:40.440
<v Speaker 2>Front member supportively tells two others to quote, get the

0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 2>fucking N word. They say it, I'm not yea, but

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.439
<v Speaker 2>the N words face as they're covering it up with

0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:51.880
<v Speaker 2>spray paint and then play. So they filmed this themselves, right,

0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.720
<v Speaker 2>They filmed this themselves and used it in later promotional.

0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.760
<v Speaker 3>Video videotaping this Cribs Free was the best idea we

0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 3>ever had. This is so funny that they just can't

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:04.000
<v Speaker 3>stop filming them doing crimes.

0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.439
<v Speaker 2>Like they're not just taking notes on the conspiracy, they're

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.000
<v Speaker 2>filming themselves enthusiastically participating in it.

0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:11.000
<v Speaker 3>Right, It's so funny.

0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, in the promotional videos there's no sound, but

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.440
<v Speaker 2>in the leaked documents it's the original uncut video like.

0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:20.080
<v Speaker 3>Once you have like discovery or something. Also, all all

0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.400
<v Speaker 3>all that audio exists, that is, it is the privilege

0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:24.919
<v Speaker 3>of the court to be able to listen to that.

0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, we have so you know when they cut their promos,

0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.199
<v Speaker 2>you know they're playing like cool music over it. But

0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 2>in the leaked version that we got from I think

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 2>it was in the Rocket Chat leaks, was in the

0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:37.520
<v Speaker 2>second big leak. Okay, you can hear them saying like,

0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:39.240
<v Speaker 2>you don't get the fucking N words face as they're

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.760
<v Speaker 2>spray painting over Arthur Ash's face and then stenciling over

0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.040
<v Speaker 2>that with their logo.

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:53.960
<v Speaker 3>Sure, like they're just like, hey, it was us. They're

0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 3>just like leaping it fair.

0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.840
<v Speaker 2>And just just just we're super clear about this. This

0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.560
<v Speaker 2>is racially motivated. Put that on the tape, like.

0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.960
<v Speaker 3>Uh yeah yeah. And so this is.

0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.440
<v Speaker 2>Probably the weaker of the three cases, right, The plaintiffs

0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:09.800
<v Speaker 2>in this suit are basing their nineteen eighty five claim

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.480
<v Speaker 2>that this is a racially motivated conspiracy to interfere with

0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.879
<v Speaker 2>the right of black residents to enjoy a place of

0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.680
<v Speaker 2>public accommodation right that a place of public accommodation is

0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.119
<v Speaker 2>sort of the legal structure for places where you're not

0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.040
<v Speaker 2>allowed to fuck with my rights. In this case, it's

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.760
<v Speaker 2>a public park. The suit makes a similar and separate

0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.960
<v Speaker 2>claim under Virginia's civil conspiracy law for racial, religious, and

0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.720
<v Speaker 2>ethnic harassment, and unlike the other two suits, this complaint

0:19:31.760 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 2>is pretty specific about who the defendants are, because they

0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.520
<v Speaker 2>recorded the planning meeting and the act of vandalism, and

0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.520
<v Speaker 2>because anti fascist researchers have identified many of the real

0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.439
<v Speaker 2>names behind the pseudonyms. Ah, so these plaintiffs' name not

0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.639
<v Speaker 2>just the organization itself and Thomas Rousseau, but seven individual

0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.720
<v Speaker 2>members who were involved. And they hope to identify nineteen

0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.320
<v Speaker 2>John Doe defendants in discovery. And so the most recent suit,

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:56.800
<v Speaker 2>the third one to be filed. We'll get back to

0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the second one in a second. Is similar to the

0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:00.919
<v Speaker 2>Richmond suit because it all who arises out of an

0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.320
<v Speaker 2>instance of vandalism. But this one looks a little stronger.

0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:05.600
<v Speaker 2>I think I should be clear. I'm not a lawyer.

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I just an enthusiastic consumer of the law.

0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 3>Yes, you spend a lot of time reading what I

0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:16.960
<v Speaker 3>would call extremely boring documents.

0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.359
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I love my document. I pay thousands of dollars

0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:22.600
<v Speaker 2>a year to look at these documents. Oh it's that

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.920
<v Speaker 2>drill post. Like please, someone please help me someone who's

0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:26.600
<v Speaker 2>good at budgeting.

0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:30.080
<v Speaker 3>We will do our best to give you as many

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:31.320
<v Speaker 3>documents as you want, Molly.

0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.439
<v Speaker 2>These documents cost ten cents a page. I'm a single

0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:37.200
<v Speaker 2>issue voter on free access to federal court documents.

0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, all my homies hate Pacer.

0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.200
<v Speaker 2>So in the Richmond case, we have black residence in

0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 2>a black neighborhood alleging a racial intimidation at a place

0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>of public accommodation in a public park. But in North Dakota,

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the suit is brought by the North Dakota Human Rights Coalition,

0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 2>the Immigrant Development Center, and an unnamed plaintiff who works

0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.679
<v Speaker 2>at the Immigrant Development Center. I mean it arises out

0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:59.040
<v Speaker 2>of two acts of vandalism at the International Market Plaza

0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:02.440
<v Speaker 2>and Fargo North to The International Market Plaza is run

0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:05.280
<v Speaker 2>by the Immigrant Development Center. It's a large indoor market

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 2>space that supports immigrant run small businesses and has community

0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:09.960
<v Speaker 2>spaces for the immigrant community.

0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:10.760
<v Speaker 3>Sounds cool.

0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's shops and restaurants and after school programs for

0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.520
<v Speaker 2>kids and business development classes.

0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:17.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure there's great food.

0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:21.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it seems nice. They seem like good people. In

0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.520
<v Speaker 2>September of twenty twenty two, Patriot Front trustpassed onto the

0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.040
<v Speaker 2>nonprofits property and spray painted the windows with their logo.

0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 2>And so this was not an isolated incident, right, Patriot

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.040
<v Speaker 2>Front had targeted other businesses in the Fargo area and

0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:35.120
<v Speaker 2>the months leading up to this, including a queer worker

0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.720
<v Speaker 2>owned coffee shop. So the tenants at the marketplace knew

0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:39.560
<v Speaker 2>who Patriot Front was and what the message is in

0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 2>the windows meant, and they were understandably frightened to have

0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.680
<v Speaker 2>been targeted and fearful that this could escalate, and it did.

0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Two days later, Patriot Front came back to the marketplace

0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and destroyed a mural celebrating multiculturalism, including placing Patriot Front

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.040
<v Speaker 2>logos over the faces of women in hit jobs in

0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:56.040
<v Speaker 2>one panel of the mural.

0:21:56.720 --> 0:22:01.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I've had to call up shops businesses after they've

0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.280
<v Speaker 3>been targeted or I've like seen I've like seen on

0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.159
<v Speaker 3>telegram like oh, this thing's happening in this area, and

0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.879
<v Speaker 3>be like explained to like this poor this like poor employee,

0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:13.360
<v Speaker 3>like who who this is and why it's happening, and

0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.040
<v Speaker 3>like what to do because they're often very like confused,

0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.800
<v Speaker 3>they don't know what's going on. Yeah, it sucks to

0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:20.879
<v Speaker 3>how much they try to like involve just regular people

0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:25.640
<v Speaker 3>trying to like make just like live out their day,

0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:29.159
<v Speaker 3>but also like specifically targeting people of color, targeting the

0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.840
<v Speaker 3>LGBTQ community. And yeah, it is, it is. It is

0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.919
<v Speaker 3>a fortunately very common occurrence because a lot of Patriot

0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.439
<v Speaker 3>Front's activity, when they're not marching around getting beat up

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.480
<v Speaker 3>in Philadelphia, are just putting up like stickers and doing

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:45.399
<v Speaker 3>graffiti like that. That is kind of most of what

0:22:45.440 --> 0:22:48.240
<v Speaker 3>they do. Sometimes they'll do like a banner drop or something.

0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 2>What do you think about the stickers is? I don't

0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.119
<v Speaker 2>know if everyone is deep in lore, but it's required,

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.040
<v Speaker 2>you're it's that's what they call their activism, right.

0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:58.840
<v Speaker 3>In order to be a member, you have to post

0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.120
<v Speaker 3>pictures of you putting up stickers.

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.879
<v Speaker 2>Like there are like spreadsheets and documents, and your network

0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.080
<v Speaker 2>director is keeping tabs, and you have to report in

0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:08.800
<v Speaker 2>every week about what activism you've engaged in, and you

0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 2>have to provide video and photo proof of you doing

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:13.280
<v Speaker 2>these acts of vandalism, which.

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Is pretty smart on Patriot Front's part because they also

0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:20.040
<v Speaker 3>sell their stickers. So it's it's it's a great pyramid scheme.

0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's got MLM energy.

0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I know, Uh, Robert Rundo and the Patriot Front

0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.520
<v Speaker 3>guy were like working together on a sticker manufacturing business

0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 3>for a while. I don't think that's working out super

0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.879
<v Speaker 3>well for Rundo, but uh.

0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's some currently awaiting trial in prison, right I believe.

0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:44.280
<v Speaker 3>So, yeah, after fleeing to what is it like Romania.

0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:49.800
<v Speaker 2>For like Belgrade, Yes, yes, Serbia that that's that's where

0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>it was.

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:51.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, yeah rough.

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:53.600
<v Speaker 2>But so in this case, you know, it's this is

0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.800
<v Speaker 2>not just stickers, right, the stickers that you can peel off.

0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:57.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're uncomfortable, you're scared, but you can peel

0:23:57.880 --> 0:24:00.000
<v Speaker 2>those stickers off and move on with your day. They

0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.920
<v Speaker 2>spray painted over a mural that cost forty five thousand dollars.

0:24:04.160 --> 0:24:08.200
<v Speaker 3>Oh so well, this is this is interesting because I'm

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.080
<v Speaker 3>not a law expert, but they may be financially liable

0:24:12.200 --> 0:24:14.159
<v Speaker 3>for that extremely high cost.

0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Right. So unlike in the Arthur ash murle, which was

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:18.320
<v Speaker 2>property of the City of Richmond. You know, so the

0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.720
<v Speaker 2>plaintiffs in that suit don't own that mural. They just

0:24:21.160 --> 0:24:23.399
<v Speaker 2>feel that they've been infringed upon because now they're afraid

0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:25.480
<v Speaker 2>to go to the public park. In this case, the

0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:29.520
<v Speaker 2>plaintiff has been financially damaged to a significant degree. This

0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:32.920
<v Speaker 2>mural was they got a grant, they had community input,

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.080
<v Speaker 2>it was made by local artists, and now it is destroyed.

0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:38.160
<v Speaker 2>It is a thing of value, It is their property,

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:42.720
<v Speaker 2>and the law really cares about property. Oh yeah, now

0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>we have quantifiable damage to property belonging to the plaintiff.

0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:49.760
<v Speaker 2>And after these two incidents, individual shopkeepers had to buy

0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:52.359
<v Speaker 2>their own security cameras, They shortened their hours because they

0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.159
<v Speaker 2>were scared to be thereafter dark, and the marketplace as

0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 2>a whole actually still operates on reduced hours due to

0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:01.280
<v Speaker 2>safety concerns. The executive director of the nonprofit had to

0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:03.439
<v Speaker 2>buy a security system for her home and doesn't like

0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:06.639
<v Speaker 2>to go to work unaccompanied. I mean, there's genuine fear

0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:07.480
<v Speaker 2>in this place. Now.

0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 3>That's the other thing is that these sorts of acts

0:25:10.240 --> 0:25:12.920
<v Speaker 3>of vandalism come with like an implicit threat of violence

0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:15.520
<v Speaker 3>that we can get together a crew of five guys

0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:18.360
<v Speaker 3>wearing masks and show up at this place of work,

0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 3>or we could already be there when you arrive.

0:25:21.560 --> 0:25:24.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, there was the actually in the lawsuit. One of

0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:26.439
<v Speaker 2>the progress in the suits is you know that the

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:29.119
<v Speaker 2>day after this happened because the day in between the

0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:32.280
<v Speaker 2>two separate acts, a couple of white guys acting sketchy

0:25:32.320 --> 0:25:35.200
<v Speaker 2>were wandering around the marketplace taking pictures of people. Yeah,

0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:39.159
<v Speaker 2>I bet people are scared. The marketplaces. Immigrant shopkeepers and

0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:43.000
<v Speaker 2>customers absolutely understood the intent of this vandalism. And it

0:25:43.040 --> 0:25:45.560
<v Speaker 2>was the same message that they chanted here in Charlottesville.

0:25:45.720 --> 0:25:48.919
<v Speaker 2>You will not replace us, right loud and clear in

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:51.840
<v Speaker 2>those in that spray paint. And so their ability to

0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 2>transact business, to use a place of public accommodation, to

0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:57.760
<v Speaker 2>feel safe in public was taken from them in an organized,

0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:01.080
<v Speaker 2>pre planned act, arising out of discrept minatory animus. And

0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:04.639
<v Speaker 2>again that that sort of discriminatory animus clause is important

0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:07.280
<v Speaker 2>in application of this statue. Right. So in the North

0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.600
<v Speaker 2>Dakota suit, they're suing Patriot Front, the organization Thomas Rousseau

0:26:10.680 --> 0:26:14.000
<v Speaker 2>as its leader, and the regional network director for that area,

0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:18.080
<v Speaker 2>Trevor Vellescu. And they're also seeking to identify ten John

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:21.080
<v Speaker 2>Does in discovery. So they don't know who all of

0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.119
<v Speaker 2>these guys are that are getting sued, but they're gonna

0:26:23.160 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 2>find out. And the third suit, Boston lawsuit, is really

0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the most straightforward. A black man got assaulted. There's video.

0:26:32.119 --> 0:26:34.720
<v Speaker 2>The video is actually taken by a member of Patriot

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:39.520
<v Speaker 2>Front from it gets worse, it gets worse. So the

0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:42.120
<v Speaker 2>video was taken by the member from inside the ranks

0:26:42.119 --> 0:26:44.920
<v Speaker 2>of the march, and it shows members making physical contact

0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:48.159
<v Speaker 2>with Charles Morrell on a public sidewalk in Boston. So

0:26:48.200 --> 0:26:50.160
<v Speaker 2>they were up there. It was just before fourth of July.

0:26:50.560 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 2>They were marching on Boston's Freedom Trail.

0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:56.560
<v Speaker 3>I think I remember this one, yeah.

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:59.320
<v Speaker 2>And Charles Morrell was outside the Public Library. He was

0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.200
<v Speaker 2>a busker, was playing music outside the library on the sidewalk.

0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:08.680
<v Speaker 2>And this video didn't get leaked. This video they posted themselves.

0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:12.680
<v Speaker 2>They used it proudly on their telegram channel, yep, and

0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:15.320
<v Speaker 2>they posted it on their telegram channel the day the

0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:16.800
<v Speaker 2>lawsuit was filed.

0:27:17.200 --> 0:27:21.879
<v Speaker 3>Genius genius move. Once again, the galaxy of brain folks

0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:25.359
<v Speaker 3>over at Patriot Front just cannot stop putting pretty dog

0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:28.240
<v Speaker 3>shit electronic music over videos of them doing crimes.

0:27:29.119 --> 0:27:32.240
<v Speaker 2>And so even though I would say, if thirteen months

0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:35.399
<v Speaker 2>after this incident occurred, I'm just randomly posting a video

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:39.600
<v Speaker 2>of this happening, that's so weird, I would say it's

0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.080
<v Speaker 2>probably because you know that you're being sued, but there

0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:44.440
<v Speaker 2>are a few. They have not acknowledged this lawsuit. They

0:27:44.440 --> 0:27:47.640
<v Speaker 2>don't acknowledge that the suit exists.

0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 3>Which which the government loves. When people don't acknowledge lawsuits

0:27:50.280 --> 0:27:51.440
<v Speaker 3>that are happening to them.

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:53.720
<v Speaker 2>You can't just like la la la la la your

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:54.600
<v Speaker 2>way out of a lawsuit.

0:27:54.840 --> 0:27:57.360
<v Speaker 3>ID you can try to go into hiding like forever

0:27:57.880 --> 0:28:00.679
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, we'll see how that goes.

0:28:01.359 --> 0:28:03.200
<v Speaker 2>And so, just a few weeks ago, when Patriot Front

0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:05.080
<v Speaker 2>was like wandering around in the snow at the March

0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:09.199
<v Speaker 2>for Life in DC, a reporter asked Russeau about the

0:28:09.200 --> 0:28:11.159
<v Speaker 2>incident in Boston. He didn't bring up the lawsuit. I

0:28:11.160 --> 0:28:13.200
<v Speaker 2>wish he had, would love to get him on tape

0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:14.640
<v Speaker 2>on that one. But he asked him about the incident

0:28:14.680 --> 0:28:17.520
<v Speaker 2>in Boston, and Russeau continues to claim that, like, look,

0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:19.920
<v Speaker 2>we've posted the video and it exonerates us.

0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.359
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure, oh, I'm sure it does, buddy.

0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:27.280
<v Speaker 2>When I watched the video, I mostly just see a

0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:30.240
<v Speaker 2>masked gang of fascist using their custom made and branded

0:28:30.280 --> 0:28:33.040
<v Speaker 2>metal shields to beat a black man who's using a

0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:35.199
<v Speaker 2>public sidewalk, forcing him into the street and slamming his

0:28:35.200 --> 0:28:36.680
<v Speaker 2>head into the pole and he had to get stitches.

0:28:36.960 --> 0:28:38.480
<v Speaker 2>But I guess it's like it's up for the courts

0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:40.840
<v Speaker 2>to decide if him being in their way was the

0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:41.720
<v Speaker 2>real crime here.

0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, they was. I mean it's funny because like

0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.280
<v Speaker 3>it's it's it's not funny. But I have I have,

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:55.960
<v Speaker 3>I have seen cops before used the exact same justification. Yes,

0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 3>it is different because cops are special little boys because

0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:02.600
<v Speaker 3>you can't sue. Yeah, but no, it is funny how

0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:05.480
<v Speaker 3>much Patriot Front are just trying to act like want

0:29:05.480 --> 0:29:07.840
<v Speaker 3>to be cops who do graffiti.

0:29:08.480 --> 0:29:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Right, Like if you wanted to be a riot cop,

0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:11.320
<v Speaker 2>like most cities are hiring.

0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:13.520
<v Speaker 3>Be a riot cop. That's not that hard.

0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I've seen a lot of guys doing it that I

0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:19.760
<v Speaker 2>don't think are capable of much else. Yeah, So in this,

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.920
<v Speaker 2>in the Boston lawsuit, the name defendants are just Thomas

0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:26.560
<v Speaker 2>Russo and Patriot Front, but they are hoping to identify

0:29:26.720 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 2>John doe'es one through ninety nine.

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:31.920
<v Speaker 3>Well, I only wish them good luck.

0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:36.480
<v Speaker 2>So, Garrison, you were saying, you know you can't just

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:41.920
<v Speaker 2>hide forever, right, I usually not. Well, you could try,

0:29:42.440 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 2>you can certainly that. Look, you can always try. There

0:29:46.320 --> 0:29:49.560
<v Speaker 2>are certain people Hidig, who I wish only the best.

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 2>There are many others Hidig who I think are probably

0:29:53.120 --> 0:29:55.600
<v Speaker 2>bad people. And it's not like I enjoy the violence

0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>of the state. But if someone happens to stumble into

0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 2>experien experiencing the violence of the state will also wanting

0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:06.120
<v Speaker 2>to wish violence upon me and my friends. I'm not

0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>gonna stop that from happening. So these lawsuits, right, they

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:13.440
<v Speaker 2>got filed, But filing a lawsuit just means you paid

0:30:13.440 --> 0:30:15.920
<v Speaker 2>a fee to give it to the court clerk. When

0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 2>you're suing someone, you have to serve them with papers. Yeah,

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.080
<v Speaker 2>to serve them with papers, you have to find them.

0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 2>You have to track them down. And normally that's pretty straightforward.

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:24.479
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:26.560
<v Speaker 2>People have homes, they have jobs, they have routines, they

0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:28.600
<v Speaker 2>have friends and family. There's places they go, there's places

0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 2>they shop. You can find most people because most people

0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:34.120
<v Speaker 2>aren't hiding, and most people aren't good at hiding. But

0:30:34.160 --> 0:30:37.920
<v Speaker 2>Thomas Rousseau does not seem to want to be found. Now.

0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:41.280
<v Speaker 2>The first suit filed, the Virginia suit, they did manage

0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.680
<v Speaker 2>to serve Rousseau at that house in grape Vine, Texas

0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:46.960
<v Speaker 2>that his father was had owned no longer owns, but

0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:48.800
<v Speaker 2>he and some other Patriot Front members were living in

0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:52.200
<v Speaker 2>that house yep. But not long after those papers were

0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:54.800
<v Speaker 2>served to him there, that house was sold in a

0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:55.720
<v Speaker 2>foreclosure sale.

0:30:55.840 --> 0:31:01.960
<v Speaker 3>God, I'm sure that house smelled awful. Oh imagine, Oh.

0:31:01.240 --> 0:31:03.080
<v Speaker 2>It's like never, it's never. Gotta feel bad for the

0:31:03.080 --> 0:31:06.800
<v Speaker 2>foreclosure sale guy. It's like a gym locker in there.

0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:09.760
<v Speaker 2>Imagine staving to stage that house for sale.

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.760
<v Speaker 3>The only only worst smell is inside the Patriot in

0:31:13.800 --> 0:31:17.880
<v Speaker 3>front you hauls, because oh wow, driving six hours in

0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 3>the Idaho the Idaho summer with like thirty other guys

0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.840
<v Speaker 3>in the back of that truck, it must be awful.

0:31:26.800 --> 0:31:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Do you remember. I think he was in the first leak.

0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Some of the guys were complaining about how when they

0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:31.040
<v Speaker 2>had to ride in the back of the U haul

0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:34.360
<v Speaker 2>they were getting sick and like passing out and be like.

0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:38.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh, you're walked in there throwing up, having to smell

0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:40.200
<v Speaker 3>everyone else's vomits.

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:43.480
<v Speaker 2>But also like there's carbon monoxide and it's hot, like

0:31:43.520 --> 0:31:44.800
<v Speaker 2>you're there.

0:31:44.880 --> 0:31:46.080
<v Speaker 3>It's so funny.

0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:48.360
<v Speaker 2>But the advice that the advice that Russo gave them

0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:50.680
<v Speaker 2>when they were saying like, hey, like we were getting sick,

0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:52.440
<v Speaker 2>back there like it's it's not safe, like we were

0:31:52.480 --> 0:31:56.640
<v Speaker 2>barfing and passing out. He recommended that they practice overheating.

0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:01.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, gett just get better, Just get like like endurance tested.

0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:04.120
<v Speaker 3>Just start hanging out in the back of U hauls

0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 3>for fun. That's actually not how heatstroke works. But no,

0:32:08.440 --> 0:32:10.720
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure you could just think your way through heatstroke.

0:32:11.160 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 3>I look, I guess I think a chat alpha male

0:32:13.840 --> 0:32:16.680
<v Speaker 3>should be able to sit in a packed truck for

0:32:16.720 --> 0:32:21.560
<v Speaker 3>seventeen hours be totally fine.

0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.440
<v Speaker 2>So the house, the stinky house, sold foreclosed. So by

0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:29.000
<v Speaker 2>the time the Boston lawsuit process server came to find

0:32:29.080 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 2>him there, it was already for sale. Yeah, no nobody

0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:33.959
<v Speaker 2>to serve. So they hired a legal research firm. They

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:36.600
<v Speaker 2>sent process servers to addresses all over Texas and they

0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:39.520
<v Speaker 2>came up empty. So what do you do when a

0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:42.640
<v Speaker 2>guy who knows process servers are looking for him can't

0:32:42.680 --> 0:32:43.120
<v Speaker 2>be found.

0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:45.720
<v Speaker 3>Should have served him at that march in Washington, DC.

0:32:46.920 --> 0:32:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Honestly, why were they not mobilized for that? I could

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 2>have told you they were going to be there.

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:52.840
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think that would require some collaboration with

0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:54.880
<v Speaker 3>like anti fascist researchers who like know when these things

0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:56.960
<v Speaker 3>are happening so like that. I think that's probably why.

0:32:57.120 --> 0:33:00.200
<v Speaker 3>That's just a little bit tricky. But if they're we're

0:33:00.320 --> 0:33:03.680
<v Speaker 3>more willingness for collaboration, I think that probably could be successful.

0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:07.280
<v Speaker 2>You can find him. Right. So, if I were two,

0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:09.840
<v Speaker 2>for example, file a lawsuit against you today.

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:13.040
<v Speaker 3>Well, and I just what if I di I'm so innocent.

0:33:16.040 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 2>If I just never if I just filed my lawsuit,

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:19.760
<v Speaker 2>pay the fee to file it, but I just never

0:33:19.840 --> 0:33:22.080
<v Speaker 2>served you, that's on me. That's my fault. I don't

0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:25.040
<v Speaker 2>take the necessary steps, my suit's gonna get dismissed. But

0:33:25.080 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 2>if I'm really trying, I'm hiring investigators, I'm knocking on

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:29.440
<v Speaker 2>neighbors doors to ask if they've seen you. I'm looking

0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:31.520
<v Speaker 2>under every rock for any sign of where you might be.

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:35.640
<v Speaker 2>That's different. That's not on me anymore. That's on you.

0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:37.920
<v Speaker 2>And there's ample precedent for this right. And the law

0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:41.320
<v Speaker 2>is pretty clear. You can't escape being sued by playing

0:33:41.360 --> 0:33:42.400
<v Speaker 2>cat and mouse.

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:45.120
<v Speaker 3>The old Tom and Jerry method.

0:33:45.720 --> 0:33:47.280
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like once I start saying things like

0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:49.160
<v Speaker 2>the federal rules of civil procedure, people are going to

0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.360
<v Speaker 2>turn the podcast all turn that off.

0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:53.280
<v Speaker 3>That doesn't for us today folks, that it could happen here.

0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:54.240
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for listening.

0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:58.719
<v Speaker 2>But so in federal court, the rules allow alternative service

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:02.000
<v Speaker 2>by me that are allowable in that state. Right, So,

0:34:02.040 --> 0:34:04.520
<v Speaker 2>even though they're in federal court in North Dakota, they

0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:08.080
<v Speaker 2>can use methods available in North Dakota courts to serve

0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 2>their defendants. And so in North Dakota, if you've tried

0:34:11.560 --> 0:34:14.200
<v Speaker 2>your best, you've exhausted the normal means conducted a diligent search,

0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:17.600
<v Speaker 2>you can do what's called service by publication, which means

0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:19.719
<v Speaker 2>you just publish a notice in the newspaper.

0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:24.719
<v Speaker 3>Really, yeah, oh that's I didn't know that. That's interesting.

0:34:25.440 --> 0:34:27.640
<v Speaker 2>And you have to you have to try really hard first, right,

0:34:27.680 --> 0:34:30.760
<v Speaker 2>they really did try. They hired investigators, they haired servers

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:33.200
<v Speaker 2>like they did, they did their due diligence. Yeah, and

0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:35.919
<v Speaker 2>so the judge said, okay, you tried your best. Put

0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:39.520
<v Speaker 2>it in the paper that they got mad. Put it

0:34:39.560 --> 0:34:42.239
<v Speaker 2>in the paper that they got sued. And so they did.

0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:45.760
<v Speaker 2>They published the notification in a Cass County, North Dakota

0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:48.239
<v Speaker 2>newspaper for a few months in a row. And so

0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:52.400
<v Speaker 2>now as far as that court is concerned, they've been served.

0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:54.280
<v Speaker 3>All right, And it worked.

0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:56.720
<v Speaker 2>A few weeks later, they got a lawyer.

0:34:57.920 --> 0:35:00.279
<v Speaker 3>Oh oh, okay, this is this is the this is

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:01.120
<v Speaker 3>news to me.

0:35:01.520 --> 0:35:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, things are moving, Things are moving. From the North

0:35:03.320 --> 0:35:07.600
<v Speaker 2>Dakota lawsuit, the two named individual defendants, Thomas Russeau and

0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:11.000
<v Speaker 2>network director Trevor Bileescu. They got a lawyer, and his

0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:13.359
<v Speaker 2>name it's gonna sound familiar to you because it is

0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:14.759
<v Speaker 2>Jason Lee Van Dyke.

0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:20.719
<v Speaker 3>Oh oh, well, I you gotta love dikes. I mean, like,

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:21.759
<v Speaker 3>what's not to love?

0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:24.200
<v Speaker 2>What a good kind? Not a good kind?

0:35:24.360 --> 0:35:27.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh wait, wait, I'm receiving some special intel. This is

0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:29.920
<v Speaker 3>not not what I was thinking.

0:35:30.520 --> 0:35:30.640
<v Speaker 1>No.

0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, if his name does sound familiar to you, it

0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:36.440
<v Speaker 2>might be because for thirty six hours towards the end

0:35:36.480 --> 0:35:38.560
<v Speaker 2>of twenty eighteen, he was the national chairman of the

0:35:38.600 --> 0:35:40.800
<v Speaker 2>Proud Boys. But then actually he quit instead.

0:35:42.400 --> 0:35:45.520
<v Speaker 3>Honestly, what are this? What are the smarter moves?

0:35:46.680 --> 0:35:50.000
<v Speaker 2>So he'd represented Proud Boys in various legal actions over

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:52.759
<v Speaker 2>the years. He was a member for several years, but

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:56.520
<v Speaker 2>as his LinkedIn currently and rather aggressively notes, he is

0:35:56.640 --> 0:35:58.400
<v Speaker 2>not a Proud Boy anymore.

0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 3>A lot of a lot of people are asking questions

0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:07.160
<v Speaker 3>about my shirt already saying I'm not a proud boy. Interesting. Yeah,

0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:09.040
<v Speaker 3>I feel like I actually, I actually, I am familiar

0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:11.840
<v Speaker 3>with this guy. He was involved in a suit with

0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:13.680
<v Speaker 3>the group I was looking into a few years back.

0:36:14.400 --> 0:36:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he's done a little bit of movement lawyering, so

0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 2>this isn't his first rodeo. And he denies that he

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:21.560
<v Speaker 2>is a member of Patriot Front, though he has spoken

0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:24.800
<v Speaker 2>to the press on numerous occasions claiming to represent various

0:36:24.840 --> 0:36:27.280
<v Speaker 2>members of Patriot He's not a member.

0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:30.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, I mean sure, I like.

0:36:31.000 --> 0:36:34.279
<v Speaker 2>He has specifically denied allegations that he is Patriot Front

0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 2>user John Texas in the leaked.

0:36:36.480 --> 0:36:40.240
<v Speaker 3>Chats, although oh, okay, well, he says.

0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:42.200
<v Speaker 2>That he is not John Texas has a lot in

0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:46.640
<v Speaker 2>common with Jason leevend But okay, Jason le Vandyke denies

0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:47.640
<v Speaker 2>that he is John Texas.

0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:51.160
<v Speaker 3>Okay, well I'm sure. I look, I have no reason

0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:54.719
<v Speaker 3>to not trust a dyke, So yeah, I'm sure that's fine.

0:36:55.000 --> 0:36:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's interesting. So he lives in North Texas

0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:01.239
<v Speaker 2>right where you know, Oh, he does home base for

0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:04.359
<v Speaker 2>these Patriot Front boys. Yeah, he's never practiced in North

0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:09.320
<v Speaker 2>Dakota before. He's not barred in North Dakota. Wait what inexplicably?

0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:11.600
<v Speaker 2>So you know, you have to take the bar exam

0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:14.879
<v Speaker 2>to be in a state bar normally. Normally to get

0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:17.200
<v Speaker 2>admitted to a federal court, you have to be barred

0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 2>in that state. North Dakota doesn't require that. You just

0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:22.880
<v Speaker 2>have to pay a fee. Okay, So it's a little

0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:27.920
<v Speaker 2>it's strange. He applied to be admitted to the federal

0:37:27.920 --> 0:37:30.640
<v Speaker 2>court in North Dakota right around the time this lawsuit

0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:31.280
<v Speaker 2>got filed.

0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:33.880
<v Speaker 3>Huh.

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:37.080
<v Speaker 2>But then he didn't actually enter an appearance until the

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.600
<v Speaker 2>judge said, yeah, they've been served. You can't hide. So

0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:43.880
<v Speaker 2>he did know about it, Yeah, he was just yes,

0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:45.960
<v Speaker 2>guess it seems like it seems like he knew he

0:37:46.000 --> 0:37:49.120
<v Speaker 2>was just working with Patriot Front to make it harder

0:37:49.160 --> 0:37:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to be served. Is again, that's not that's not a

0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:55.440
<v Speaker 2>legal claim I'm making. I'm just just making a guess.

0:37:55.640 --> 0:37:58.720
<v Speaker 2>I'm just saying he has never practiced in North Dakota before.

0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:02.240
<v Speaker 2>But he did apply to be admitted to the court

0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.440
<v Speaker 2>around the time the lawsuit was file. That's a interesting

0:38:06.000 --> 0:38:08.279
<v Speaker 2>The boss and case is a little wilder, right, So

0:38:08.400 --> 0:38:11.319
<v Speaker 2>it's twenty twenty four, we're all online, and it's not

0:38:11.400 --> 0:38:13.640
<v Speaker 2>actually unheard of to get permission from the court to

0:38:13.680 --> 0:38:17.319
<v Speaker 2>serve someone electronically if you've tried everything else. Yeah, I've

0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:19.840
<v Speaker 2>heard of cases where someone got served by a Facebook messenger,

0:38:19.840 --> 0:38:24.120
<v Speaker 2>which just feels demeaning. Wow, that's that's so depressing. Imagine

0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:27.520
<v Speaker 2>you can send a minion sticker with it. Oh God,

0:38:28.200 --> 0:38:30.839
<v Speaker 2>horrible vibes. But I need to do a little more

0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:33.200
<v Speaker 2>research to figure out if this is the first time

0:38:33.239 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>a federal judge has had to decide whether a gab

0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:37.960
<v Speaker 2>DM is legally.

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:41.800
<v Speaker 3>Notice that you know your joke. There's no way, no,

0:38:42.680 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 3>absolutely not. Yeah, yeah, okay, well we will we will

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:51.080
<v Speaker 3>learn what GAB is after I take a break. I

0:38:51.120 --> 0:38:53.160
<v Speaker 3>need to like walk around for a few minutes and

0:38:53.200 --> 0:38:55.440
<v Speaker 3>just process that for a second. One you guys, yea,

0:38:56.400 --> 0:38:58.400
<v Speaker 3>here's here's some ads. I'm just I'm just going to

0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:12.239
<v Speaker 3>process that for a while while all right, we are

0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 3>back get Molly. I hope that a lot of a

0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:19.400
<v Speaker 3>lot of our listeners don't know what GAB is.

0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:20.760
<v Speaker 2>They should hold on there.

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:26.160
<v Speaker 3>But that means that you have to explain what GAB is,

0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:28.800
<v Speaker 3>which isn't that hard. It's just kind of annoying.

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:32.719
<v Speaker 2>It's just sort of like a less functional Facebook for Nazis.

0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:36.719
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think originally it was Twitter for Nazis, but

0:39:36.800 --> 0:39:39.400
<v Speaker 3>now Twitter is Twitter for Nazis, but it.

0:39:39.400 --> 0:39:41.719
<v Speaker 2>Has more of a sort of Facebook interface. To me,

0:39:42.200 --> 0:39:44.239
<v Speaker 2>oh I I always I always.

0:39:44.000 --> 0:39:46.400
<v Speaker 3>Thought of it as having a way more of like

0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:48.880
<v Speaker 3>a like an older Twitter uter Fate yet.

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Because it has it has like groups and a marketplace,

0:39:52.040 --> 0:39:52.520
<v Speaker 2>like it.

0:39:52.480 --> 0:39:54.680
<v Speaker 3>Does have groups of market But I think it started

0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:58.720
<v Speaker 3>as a Twitter clone that started to add Facebook features.

0:39:59.120 --> 0:40:00.640
<v Speaker 3>That's mostly it's like sort.

0:40:00.520 --> 0:40:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Of like the evolutionary thing where everything turns into crabs

0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:05.239
<v Speaker 2>boomers turn everything into Facebook.

0:40:06.000 --> 0:40:10.200
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, exactly. It is the Facebook evocation of all

0:40:10.239 --> 0:40:13.279
<v Speaker 3>social media. I think those changes were made to like

0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:17.680
<v Speaker 3>to support more like a collaboration between users, because they

0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:19.120
<v Speaker 3>wanted it to be like a place where Nazis could

0:40:19.120 --> 0:40:21.880
<v Speaker 3>like also organize. But yeah, it very much started and

0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:24.359
<v Speaker 3>like what a year it was like twenty eighteen ish,

0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:25.280
<v Speaker 3>I want.

0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:29.240
<v Speaker 2>To say twenty sixteen. Oh, I could pull the incorporation documents.

0:40:29.680 --> 0:40:31.560
<v Speaker 2>I think I think it's a little older than that.

0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:34.440
<v Speaker 2>But it wasn't popular until I.

0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Didn't get a Gap account until twenty eighteen.

0:40:36.640 --> 0:40:39.279
<v Speaker 2>It was in the news a lot on twenty eighteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

0:40:39.480 --> 0:40:41.960
<v Speaker 2>mass shooters were using it and then their accounts were

0:40:41.960 --> 0:40:44.480
<v Speaker 2>in the court documents. But it was already, you know,

0:40:44.840 --> 0:40:46.200
<v Speaker 2>popular among certain sets.

0:40:46.520 --> 0:40:49.880
<v Speaker 3>It was certainly around for a while. Their logo is

0:40:49.880 --> 0:40:52.720
<v Speaker 3>a frog. I'm sure there's nothing I'm sure that's completely normal,

0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:56.359
<v Speaker 3>but yeah, it started off as just a social media

0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:01.000
<v Speaker 3>app for Nazis, almost exclusively used by white supremacists.

0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:02.759
<v Speaker 2>It's a free speech platform.

0:41:03.040 --> 0:41:05.040
<v Speaker 3>It is a free speech platform. It was kind of

0:41:05.080 --> 0:41:08.600
<v Speaker 3>it was I like Parlor came a few years later,

0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:11.720
<v Speaker 3>which was more like a maga ish version, like Gab

0:41:11.760 --> 0:41:14.879
<v Speaker 3>was for like actual Nazis, right, Whereas Parlor you could

0:41:14.920 --> 0:41:18.680
<v Speaker 3>find like, you know, like like anyone from like mega people,

0:41:19.000 --> 0:41:21.880
<v Speaker 3>conservative politicians, you could you found a lot of like

0:41:21.880 --> 0:41:24.600
<v Speaker 3>Proud Boy chapters. But Gab was like, no, you were

0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:26.800
<v Speaker 3>like explicitly white supremacists.

0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:29.200
<v Speaker 2>There's not a lot of plausible deniability in a GAB

0:41:29.200 --> 0:41:31.480
<v Speaker 2>account the way there was maybe with Parlor. A little bit.

0:41:31.719 --> 0:41:34.759
<v Speaker 3>Now a Gab is still a thing. I think I

0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:38.960
<v Speaker 3>mostly use it to watch the GDL, who posts a

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:43.560
<v Speaker 3>lot on GAB, But I think a lot of unfortunately,

0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:45.040
<v Speaker 3>a whole bunch of people who were on gab are

0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:47.000
<v Speaker 3>just now back on actual Twitter.

0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:47.640
<v Speaker 2>Or in prison.

0:41:48.640 --> 0:41:53.120
<v Speaker 3>And you know, some would say that those two things

0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.120
<v Speaker 3>and a lot of govin which is not actually true

0:41:55.120 --> 0:41:56.360
<v Speaker 3>because prison is way worth the.

0:41:56.360 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 2>Same The same posts kind of got them to both places,

0:41:59.040 --> 0:41:59.520
<v Speaker 2>just different.

0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:05.600
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, anyway, so okay, but that's yeah. I did

0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:08.400
<v Speaker 3>not know that a future of GAB could be serving

0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:11.360
<v Speaker 3>could be serving some lawsuit papers. That is something I

0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:11.880
<v Speaker 3>did not know.

0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Well, it turns out you can't attach a PDF to

0:42:14.880 --> 0:42:17.160
<v Speaker 2>a gab DM, so we didn't run into some trouble.

0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:19.080
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, this is so dumb.

0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:22.640
<v Speaker 2>So Charles Morrell's lawyers were given permission to serve Patriot

0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.600
<v Speaker 2>Front and Thomas Rousseau via several online means. Right, so

0:42:25.680 --> 0:42:28.600
<v Speaker 2>in this motion for this this permission for alternate service,

0:42:28.840 --> 0:42:32.200
<v Speaker 2>they identified two email addresses and social media accounts regularly

0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:35.920
<v Speaker 2>used by the group on Telegram, Odyssey, bitshoot and GAB.

0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:38.720
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I certainly would have gone for Telegram Odyssey

0:42:38.719 --> 0:42:42.000
<v Speaker 3>and bit shoot are like YouTube and Twitch clones for nazis.

0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:46.359
<v Speaker 3>In case the listener is curious, don't go there. Don't

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 3>not worry, do not go there. My god, I be

0:42:51.280 --> 0:42:53.240
<v Speaker 3>I have been on there way too much this week,

0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:55.400
<v Speaker 3>and I have seen some of the worst hit.

0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:59.880
<v Speaker 2>It's not good on there. No, it's a process server, right.

0:43:00.200 --> 0:43:03.640
<v Speaker 2>This person who normally just like waits outside your work

0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 2>to serve you with papers is like now on gab right.

0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.719
<v Speaker 2>So the process server contacted all of the identified accounts.

0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:11.360
<v Speaker 2>And so when I was researching this, you know, I was

0:43:11.360 --> 0:43:13.040
<v Speaker 2>trying to get an idea of how common this is,

0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:15.160
<v Speaker 2>what the usual means are, And so I was looking

0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:17.640
<v Speaker 2>through the cited case law and the motion, and one

0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:19.880
<v Speaker 2>of the cases they cited kind of caught my eye.

0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:22.720
<v Speaker 2>It's halish V. Bin Laden.

0:43:23.239 --> 0:43:28.279
<v Speaker 3>Oh no, him, that name sounds familiar. Was was he

0:43:28.360 --> 0:43:32.320
<v Speaker 3>the one that did that thing around like twenty twenty

0:43:32.320 --> 0:43:33.200
<v Speaker 3>three ish years ago?

0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:35.279
<v Speaker 2>Was it born then? How old I was?

0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:35.759
<v Speaker 3>I was not?

0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:40.560
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, I was kidding, Jesus, I was just ribbing you.

0:43:40.680 --> 0:43:43.799
<v Speaker 2>Oh my god. Unfortunately. Yeah, Well it is that bin Laden, right,

0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:45.040
<v Speaker 2>it is it is they.

0:43:45.120 --> 0:43:45.600
<v Speaker 3>It is the guy.

0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, it's the one, the one you're thinking of. So

0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:49.799
<v Speaker 2>that's a lawsuit that was brought by families of people

0:43:49.840 --> 0:43:52.400
<v Speaker 2>who died at nine to eleven. So last year, a

0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:54.799
<v Speaker 2>federal judge in New York gave those plaintiffs permission to

0:43:54.840 --> 0:43:59.640
<v Speaker 2>serve legal notice to the Taliban via Twitter DM like

0:44:00.160 --> 0:44:02.719
<v Speaker 2>the Taliban, what a time to be alive? What a

0:44:02.760 --> 0:44:03.520
<v Speaker 2>time to be alive?

0:44:03.840 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean, yes, I the Taliban Twitter account is certainly fascinating.

0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:12.520
<v Speaker 3>They're trying to hold the Taliban responsible for nine to eleven. Huh.

0:44:12.719 --> 0:44:14.080
<v Speaker 2>I do want to get like deep into the weeds

0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:17.040
<v Speaker 2>about this particular case. But there's something seized. So like

0:44:17.160 --> 0:44:19.520
<v Speaker 2>judgments have been awarded, there are seized funds sitting somewhere

0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:22.160
<v Speaker 2>in the released they want they want this money, right,

0:44:22.200 --> 0:44:23.920
<v Speaker 2>and so they needed to serve notice to the Taliban

0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:25.880
<v Speaker 2>that they want this money. And so as wild as

0:44:25.880 --> 0:44:28.560
<v Speaker 2>that sounds, there's actually a lot of similarities in the

0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 2>underlying legal logic here. So in both of these cases,

0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:33.600
<v Speaker 2>the court is pretty specific that they're not just saying like, yeah,

0:44:33.760 --> 0:44:35.600
<v Speaker 2>just like DM whoever and it's good enough.

0:44:35.719 --> 0:44:35.919
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:44:36.400 --> 0:44:38.680
<v Speaker 2>So in both of these cases, the account identified as

0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:41.680
<v Speaker 2>being appropriate for service is pretty clear that it belongs

0:44:41.680 --> 0:44:43.799
<v Speaker 2>to the person who's supposed to be served, and that

0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:47.480
<v Speaker 2>that particular account has been used to make statements that

0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:50.799
<v Speaker 2>indicate the individual already knows about the lawsuit. So this

0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:54.440
<v Speaker 2>DMS the service by a DMK's going to be a surprise, right,

0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:56.000
<v Speaker 2>This isn't going to be the first time you're hearing

0:44:56.040 --> 0:44:59.280
<v Speaker 2>about this. Like the court knows that you know, okay,

0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:01.160
<v Speaker 2>which I just need to see the red receipt that

0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:01.480
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:02.719
<v Speaker 3>Aha, got it.

0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:06.880
<v Speaker 2>So in the case of the Taliban, the court notes

0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:10.040
<v Speaker 2>that the accounts had previously published press releases related to

0:45:10.200 --> 0:45:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the funds at issue in the underlying litigation. So it's

0:45:12.480 --> 0:45:17.440
<v Speaker 2>like they they're posting about it. They know they're certainly

0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:21.560
<v Speaker 2>posting the talent. The Taliban is posting about the funds, okay.

0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:25.000
<v Speaker 2>So in this case, it's Russeau's bravado biting you in

0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:26.080
<v Speaker 2>the ass, right, and she.

0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:28.440
<v Speaker 3>Loves and he loves posting. My god.

0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:30.960
<v Speaker 2>And the judge specifically refers to the fact that they

0:45:31.040 --> 0:45:33.760
<v Speaker 2>posted the video of the incident the day the suit

0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:36.200
<v Speaker 2>was filed, which indicates actual knowledge.

0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:39.560
<v Speaker 3>Yes, which is also a very interesting legal move on

0:45:39.640 --> 0:45:41.640
<v Speaker 3>the part of Russo.

0:45:41.960 --> 0:45:44.160
<v Speaker 2>Like, the judge is reading your posts and he doesn't

0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:44.799
<v Speaker 2>think they're good.

0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:49.319
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god. Uh, nothing more scary than having to

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:51.480
<v Speaker 3>read out your posts to a federal judge.

0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Jesus Christ post every day, like a judge is gonna

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:58.000
<v Speaker 2>read them over your shoulder, right, Yes, so they're just

0:45:58.000 --> 0:46:00.800
<v Speaker 2>like randomly and for totally unrelated reasons, losting this thirteen

0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:02.600
<v Speaker 2>month old video the day the lawsuit gets filed.

0:46:02.600 --> 0:46:05.960
<v Speaker 3>The judgesn't buy that fast. Again, a fascinating legal move.

0:46:07.680 --> 0:46:09.399
<v Speaker 2>And so back to the Richmond case, right, we're still

0:46:09.400 --> 0:46:12.239
<v Speaker 2>talking about service. So the Richmond Keys, because it was

0:46:12.239 --> 0:46:15.640
<v Speaker 2>filed first, maybe they weren't expecting to get sued, And

0:46:15.680 --> 0:46:18.240
<v Speaker 2>because more of those plaintiffs were actually identified by anti

0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:21.120
<v Speaker 2>fascist researchers, they actually did manage to serve most of

0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:23.880
<v Speaker 2>their defendants. They found Thomas Dale, Nathan Noyce, aident Tradinnick,

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:27.279
<v Speaker 2>and Daniel Cherecci at their homes. A private investigator tracks

0:46:27.360 --> 0:46:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Jacob Brown down hiding at a home owned by his

0:46:30.000 --> 0:46:32.719
<v Speaker 2>mother in like upstate New York. William Ring was.

0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:37.240
<v Speaker 3>Actually, sorry, Moll, God, what a bunch of losers.

0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:41.000
<v Speaker 2>But William Ring was actually the easiest defendant to find.

0:46:41.560 --> 0:46:45.120
<v Speaker 2>His papers were actually handed to someone to give to him.

0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:47.600
<v Speaker 2>But this person was authorized to receive those papers because

0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:50.360
<v Speaker 2>they were a corrections officer at the Fayette County Prison

0:46:50.400 --> 0:46:55.120
<v Speaker 2>in Pennsylvania. Ah Ring was a guest up there, serving

0:46:55.160 --> 0:46:57.279
<v Speaker 2>a sentence for beating a man over the head with

0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:59.240
<v Speaker 2>a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire.

0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:02.279
<v Speaker 3>HM. Curious it was.

0:47:02.239 --> 0:47:05.120
<v Speaker 2>An altercation over refrigerator. It's very unclear.

0:47:05.239 --> 0:47:07.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh, that's so sad. I thought it was gonna be

0:47:07.480 --> 0:47:10.520
<v Speaker 3>like some horrible racist assault, and there could be an

0:47:10.520 --> 0:47:12.480
<v Speaker 3>element of racism in this. I'm not familiar with the case.

0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:15.320
<v Speaker 2>No, don't worry, Garrison. He was there for a second

0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:19.000
<v Speaker 2>defense that occurred around the same time, but separately separate counties,

0:47:19.000 --> 0:47:22.480
<v Speaker 2>even where he punched a child in the face after

0:47:22.560 --> 0:47:24.520
<v Speaker 2>telling her to go back to Mexico.

0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:28.520
<v Speaker 3>Okay, see that is what I That's what I was expecting.

0:47:28.560 --> 0:47:30.120
<v Speaker 2>All right, Yeah, that sounds about right.

0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:34.120
<v Speaker 3>Man. It does suck that sending Nazis to prison also

0:47:34.200 --> 0:47:38.279
<v Speaker 3>has so many negative consequences. Fix. The furthering of the

0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:41.240
<v Speaker 3>White Premaces project is really reliant on there being Nazis

0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:43.319
<v Speaker 3>in prison, and it sucks that that is such an

0:47:43.440 --> 0:47:46.360
<v Speaker 3>organizational hub of them, because these people should not be

0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:49.439
<v Speaker 3>around other people. Ah Man. Yeah.

0:47:49.760 --> 0:47:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Just as an interesting aside in both of those criminal cases,

0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:55.120
<v Speaker 2>he hired a guy I've seen before, very interesting. His

0:47:55.200 --> 0:47:57.439
<v Speaker 2>name is Josh Smith. He was the lawyer that Matt

0:47:57.480 --> 0:48:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Heinbach hired to represent him in this Kesler case a

0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:03.480
<v Speaker 2>few years ago. Man, he's interesting to see an old

0:48:03.480 --> 0:48:04.000
<v Speaker 2>friend again.

0:48:04.440 --> 0:48:07.000
<v Speaker 3>Man with the most real name, Josh Smith.

0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:09.080
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's because it's not his real name.

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:10.520
<v Speaker 3>That's well, there we go.

0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:13.360
<v Speaker 2>He was he was born Daniel Nussbaum.

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:19.080
<v Speaker 3>Of course, of course he was. I I clocked that immediately. Wow. Good,

0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:20.120
<v Speaker 3>good for me. Yeah.

0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:23.080
<v Speaker 2>No, he was raised Jewish. But now he's a Holocaust

0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:23.600
<v Speaker 2>and I an.

0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:28.239
<v Speaker 3>Oh, what this is so sad? Oh my god, he

0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:30.120
<v Speaker 3>joined to not see gay.

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:33.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what the fuck?

0:48:34.320 --> 0:48:37.399
<v Speaker 3>Oh god, he's like, I have to pick a wider name.

0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:41.040
<v Speaker 3>Josh Smith. Wow, what a loser.

0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:45.960
<v Speaker 2>He's not a very good lawyer either. His performance, his

0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:48.440
<v Speaker 2>performance in the science case with some of the strangest

0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:51.080
<v Speaker 2>courtroom behavior I've I've ever seen, Like the judge had

0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to keep reminding him of like you can't like that's

0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:55.280
<v Speaker 2>not the law, Like you can't just say stuff.

0:48:55.640 --> 0:49:00.160
<v Speaker 3>I love a courtroom behavior being described as strange.

0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:02.560
<v Speaker 2>Like when the judge has to repeatedly remind you like

0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:06.480
<v Speaker 2>how the law works, like how making motions works, Like

0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:10.560
<v Speaker 2>you can't just yell stuff. It was the rough trial

0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:13.920
<v Speaker 2>for him. His client does oh millions of dollars.

0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:18.640
<v Speaker 3>He's the reverse Saul Goodman. Oh my gosh, Jesus Christ.

0:49:20.160 --> 0:49:22.560
<v Speaker 2>Someone having hired him for his criminal cases and is

0:49:22.600 --> 0:49:25.799
<v Speaker 2>in prison. Oh, he didn't hire him to represent him

0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:28.520
<v Speaker 2>in this lawsuit because he didn't get a lawyer and

0:49:28.560 --> 0:49:31.640
<v Speaker 2>he defaulted. And so if you default on a case,

0:49:31.760 --> 0:49:34.239
<v Speaker 2>it means you're not allowed to participate anymore. And so

0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:36.400
<v Speaker 2>the case is going to keep going and maybe you

0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:39.280
<v Speaker 2>get found liable, but like, you don't get to participate anymore.

0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:40.879
<v Speaker 2>So when it's over, if you're liable, like.

0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:45.000
<v Speaker 3>That's kind of fucking fuck you. Huh.

0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:47.880
<v Speaker 2>And so Thomas Rousseau, Jacob Brown, and Patriot Front are

0:49:47.880 --> 0:49:51.120
<v Speaker 2>also defaulted in that lawsuit. But the other guys, the

0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:55.239
<v Speaker 2>other guys got a lawyer. They hired another guy we've

0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.520
<v Speaker 2>seen before. His name is Glenn Allen. He's a Maryland

0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:00.719
<v Speaker 2>based attorney who lost his job as council for the

0:50:00.719 --> 0:50:03.600
<v Speaker 2>Baltimore Police Department after the SPLC identified him as a

0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:07.280
<v Speaker 2>longtime member of the old school neo Nazi group National Alliance.

0:50:07.640 --> 0:50:10.640
<v Speaker 3>Wow, huh. Curious that that the police would have a

0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:14.520
<v Speaker 3>Nazi lawyer. That's weird. Surely there's nothing to interrogate, There.

0:50:14.840 --> 0:50:16.800
<v Speaker 2>No there's nothing weird going on in Baltimore at the

0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:17.759
<v Speaker 2>police department at all.

0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:21.720
<v Speaker 3>It is certainly funny that they desired the old police

0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:27.279
<v Speaker 3>Nazi lawyer for their Nazi club, A lawyer who's someone

0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:29.880
<v Speaker 3>who's been fighting from the police from being a Nazi.

0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:33.359
<v Speaker 2>So he's been keeping pretty busy the last few years.

0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:35.239
<v Speaker 2>He spent a couple of years trying to sue the

0:50:35.320 --> 0:50:38.719
<v Speaker 2>SPLC for saying true stuff about him being a member

0:50:38.719 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 2>of National Alliance. It didn't work out. Didn't work out,

0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:45.600
<v Speaker 2>and he currently represents Warren Baylong in a doomed appeal

0:50:45.640 --> 0:50:48.520
<v Speaker 2>of a previously dismiss lawsuit against the City of Charlottesville,

0:50:48.800 --> 0:50:50.799
<v Speaker 2>who're failing to protect his right to have a good

0:50:50.800 --> 0:50:57.600
<v Speaker 2>time at Unite the Right. Well, it's sort of I

0:50:57.600 --> 0:50:59.520
<v Speaker 2>don't know, it's like feels a little slapstick right, Like

0:50:59.520 --> 0:51:02.000
<v Speaker 2>we're just like throwing characters in there. We've got We've

0:51:02.000 --> 0:51:05.319
<v Speaker 2>got the formerly Jewish Holocaust deny are Nazi. We've got

0:51:05.320 --> 0:51:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the guy in prison for punching a little girl. Oh,

0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:10.120
<v Speaker 2>the girl he told to go back to Mexico is

0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:12.919
<v Speaker 2>Puerto Rican. I don't know that that matters to him.

0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:16.240
<v Speaker 2>But she she can't she can't go back to Mexico.

0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:21.839
<v Speaker 3>Not being racist. Challenge level impossible.

0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:24.520
<v Speaker 2>We're just like throwing characters in here.

0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:29.239
<v Speaker 3>We got to know, is it is very curtoonish. Yeah,

0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:30.359
<v Speaker 3>but here we are at the end.

0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Right, I've taken up a lot of your time to

0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:34.080
<v Speaker 2>take care of us and telling you my little story.

0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:38.320
<v Speaker 2>But what happens now? Right, there's three live cases they're starting,

0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:41.520
<v Speaker 2>They're starting to crawl forward now that the judges agreed

0:51:41.560 --> 0:51:44.320
<v Speaker 2>that you can serve them. I'm so excited for discovery.

0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:48.640
<v Speaker 2>My god, it's gonna be a treat. It's for me anyway.

0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:52.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm getting the documents now. Obviously, the plaintiff's goal here

0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:56.040
<v Speaker 2>is recovery of damages. That's what the law allows for.

0:51:56.080 --> 0:51:58.640
<v Speaker 2>They can they sue because they want to recover damages,

0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:00.719
<v Speaker 2>and I wish them well in that. But I'm not

0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:03.319
<v Speaker 2>holding my breath. I think we can get some idea

0:52:03.320 --> 0:52:05.040
<v Speaker 2>of what to expect here by looking back at the

0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:07.759
<v Speaker 2>Science by Kessler lawsuit against the United the Right organizers.

0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:11.160
<v Speaker 2>It took four years to get to trial. Discovery was

0:52:11.200 --> 0:52:13.759
<v Speaker 2>stymied by guys dropping their phones in toilets.

0:52:14.000 --> 0:52:16.760
<v Speaker 3>We're just not showing up. I'm sure a lot of

0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:21.319
<v Speaker 3>what these lawyers are doing are collaborating with defendants to

0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:23.480
<v Speaker 3>make as a little come out in discovery as possible,

0:52:23.480 --> 0:52:27.040
<v Speaker 3>because that is beyond the actual court case. The thing

0:52:27.080 --> 0:52:30.640
<v Speaker 3>that could actually be most damaging to them is discovery,

0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:33.759
<v Speaker 3>Like that is the actual thing. So I'm sure they're

0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:37.239
<v Speaker 3>using all this extra time when they're avoiding recognizing the

0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.719
<v Speaker 3>lawsuit to try to tidy up any dirty laundry they

0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:43.320
<v Speaker 3>may have in a semi legal fashion.

0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:46.839
<v Speaker 2>Well, they can't do that, and so I'm not going

0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:50.880
<v Speaker 2>to accuse anyone of a crime. Right, destruction of evidence

0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:53.880
<v Speaker 2>is not allowed. It's called spoliation. Right, So once you

0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:56.880
<v Speaker 2>have actual knowledge that you're being sued, you are no

0:52:56.960 --> 0:53:00.480
<v Speaker 2>longer allowed to destroy anything that might be discoverable'll do it?

0:53:00.719 --> 0:53:02.000
<v Speaker 3>Sure do they always kick cot?

0:53:02.640 --> 0:53:05.759
<v Speaker 2>No? Am I implying that anyone is committing a crime

0:53:05.760 --> 0:53:07.480
<v Speaker 2>at this juncture legally?

0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:07.880
<v Speaker 3>No?

0:53:09.120 --> 0:53:11.800
<v Speaker 2>Well we'll see. But you know, looking back at science,

0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:14.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't think anybody's gonna squeeze a few million out

0:53:14.680 --> 0:53:16.880
<v Speaker 2>of any of those guys, right, Like they were found liable,

0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:19.719
<v Speaker 2>but they're not gonna pay. Right, And Thomas Russeau started

0:53:19.800 --> 0:53:22.200
<v Speaker 2>running his fascist club for friendless boys, right, out of

0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:24.880
<v Speaker 2>high school. He doesn't have a job, he doesn't have assets,

0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:28.719
<v Speaker 2>he's not gonna pay anybody any money. But what it

0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.440
<v Speaker 2>can do is slow them down. They have to get lawyers,

0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:34.080
<v Speaker 2>they have to show up in court, they have to

0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:37.920
<v Speaker 2>participate in discovery. We've already seen plenty of leaked coms

0:53:37.960 --> 0:53:41.680
<v Speaker 2>and internal planning documents, but now those documents and more

0:53:42.000 --> 0:53:43.480
<v Speaker 2>will be entered into the court record.

0:53:43.560 --> 0:53:43.719
<v Speaker 3>Right.

0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:47.040
<v Speaker 2>So you know researchers like you and I, we put

0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:48.880
<v Speaker 2>out information all the time and people see it and

0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:52.640
<v Speaker 2>it makes a difference. But when something comes in with

0:53:52.719 --> 0:53:55.799
<v Speaker 2>sort of the impromature of the court's legitimacy, Like once

0:53:55.840 --> 0:53:57.920
<v Speaker 2>you put a bait's number on that bad boy, they

0:53:57.920 --> 0:53:59.480
<v Speaker 2>could put it on the news, the real news were

0:53:59.480 --> 0:54:00.120
<v Speaker 2>normal people.

0:54:00.320 --> 0:54:05.560
<v Speaker 3>Right, yes, not your like niche, not your niche like

0:54:05.920 --> 0:54:08.759
<v Speaker 3>no blogs the site that like twelve people check it.

0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:11.759
<v Speaker 2>On, right, So like your mom watching Matt Out is

0:54:11.800 --> 0:54:14.600
<v Speaker 2>going to see this, where like she's not reading Unicorn Riot.

0:54:14.920 --> 0:54:17.120
<v Speaker 2>So this will put this information in front of more people,

0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:22.000
<v Speaker 2>will have more legitimacy. But I think the biggest impact

0:54:22.360 --> 0:54:24.840
<v Speaker 2>this is going to have is on the willingness of

0:54:24.920 --> 0:54:28.040
<v Speaker 2>potential members and current members to participate, right.

0:54:27.960 --> 0:54:31.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it makes things way more risky for people wanting

0:54:31.120 --> 0:54:32.200
<v Speaker 3>to do this sort of stuff.

0:54:32.400 --> 0:54:34.800
<v Speaker 2>Like, maybe you're gonna think twice about your group mandated

0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:37.960
<v Speaker 2>racial intimidation now that you know you might have to

0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:41.120
<v Speaker 2>pay for that. Yeah, you know, maybe joining looks a

0:54:41.160 --> 0:54:44.280
<v Speaker 2>little less appealing. You know, it's hard to be optimistic

0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:48.520
<v Speaker 2>about relying on the courts to meaningfully undermine white supremacist organizing. Sure,

0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:50.479
<v Speaker 2>but it's worth a shot to gum up the works

0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:51.480
<v Speaker 2>with whatever tools you have.

0:54:51.880 --> 0:54:56.160
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, I may not believe in like the law system

0:54:56.320 --> 0:55:00.200
<v Speaker 3>TM as this as this like universally good thing, or

0:55:00.200 --> 0:55:02.200
<v Speaker 3>even like a like a like a valid thing, but

0:55:02.280 --> 0:55:07.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm certainly willing to have it severely, uh, inconvenience my

0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:09.880
<v Speaker 3>ontological enemies.

0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Like is it the best solution?

0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:13.319
<v Speaker 3>No?

0:55:13.640 --> 0:55:16.839
<v Speaker 2>Is it a solution? Maybe not at all. It's worth

0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:19.480
<v Speaker 2>a shot, it'll be you know, I'm gonna enjoy reading

0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:20.399
<v Speaker 2>the documents either way.

0:55:20.880 --> 0:55:25.080
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, No, that is. I am extremely intrigued to see

0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:28.479
<v Speaker 3>what will come out, uh in discovery, and I wish

0:55:28.520 --> 0:55:34.759
<v Speaker 3>these people only the worst. So well, Molly, that was

0:55:34.800 --> 0:55:39.239
<v Speaker 3>that was fantastic. That was extremely informative. You know, I

0:55:39.640 --> 0:55:41.960
<v Speaker 3>always think it's impossible to find new ways to laugh

0:55:42.000 --> 0:55:44.400
<v Speaker 3>at Patriot Front. Yet here here we.

0:55:44.280 --> 0:55:48.200
<v Speaker 2>Are imagine opening that DM. I wish they had record

0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:50.120
<v Speaker 2>they record everything. I wish they'd been recording that.

0:55:50.360 --> 0:55:54.120
<v Speaker 3>God, it'd be funny. Yeah, imagine getting served via GAB.

0:55:54.160 --> 0:55:57.719
<v Speaker 3>I would just get you know, I I shouldn't say

0:55:57.719 --> 0:56:04.080
<v Speaker 3>that anyway. Well, where can people find you online, Molly?

0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:06.160
<v Speaker 3>Besides on our show?

0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Now I know, I'm very excited to be here. You

0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:12.320
<v Speaker 2>can find me on Twitter at Socialist dog Mom, my

0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:14.840
<v Speaker 2>name I chose as a little joke before I realized

0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:16.200
<v Speaker 2>it was going to be my job.

0:56:16.600 --> 0:56:18.319
<v Speaker 3>That is mean, that is the same. That is the

0:56:18.320 --> 0:56:21.080
<v Speaker 3>same thing with my Twitter presence. So we are we

0:56:21.120 --> 0:56:22.319
<v Speaker 3>are in the same boat there.

0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you mostly just find me on Twitter. You can

0:56:26.520 --> 0:56:29.920
<v Speaker 2>find me on my my ghost newsletter. It's like substack,

0:56:30.000 --> 0:56:32.760
<v Speaker 2>but there's less Nazis there. It's called the Devil's Advocates.

0:56:32.760 --> 0:56:34.520
<v Speaker 2>There's a link to it on my Twitter. I post

0:56:34.520 --> 0:56:38.279
<v Speaker 2>about what happens when you take white supremacy to court.

0:56:40.080 --> 0:56:43.040
<v Speaker 3>Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Molly. We we will

0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:45.839
<v Speaker 3>we will talk again soon to learn about I'm sure

0:56:46.280 --> 0:56:50.080
<v Speaker 3>even even new and more more ridiculous things that you

0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:53.040
<v Speaker 3>have stumbled across by reading those documents, I am too

0:56:53.080 --> 0:56:54.080
<v Speaker 3>adhd to look.

0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:56.120
<v Speaker 2>At it only ever gets worse. Garrison.

0:57:02.880 --> 0:57:05.240
<v Speaker 1>It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

0:57:05.440 --> 0:57:08.120
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