Speaker 1: Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on These are our stories done.
Speaker 4: Done, Yay, that's messed up.
Speaker 3: An sv podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Lisa Traeger, I'm Kara Klank and we do SVU recabs,
Speaker 1: true crime, deep dives, conversations with interesting people, actors, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And first, boy, do I have a story for you?
Speaker 3: Do you do?
Speaker 2: You're gonna like it? So I go to see Kat
Speaker 2: Cohen's show, Oh yeah, broad Strokes. I'm a huge fan
Speaker 2: of hers and a friend and I can't wait. So
Speaker 2: I'm really excited and obviously a textra like can I
Speaker 2: say hi? After she goes wait in the house, like,
Speaker 2: and I'll come out to say hi. So I and
Speaker 2: you know, me at live performances and I need everyone
Speaker 2: on their best behavior. So I go alone and the
Speaker 2: people in front of me won't stop talking, like they're
Speaker 2: annoying because it's like, you know, you can laugh, you
Speaker 2: don't have to look at the person next to you
Speaker 2: before you laugh. But that's a low you know, like whatever,
Speaker 2: But they're like I would say every two minutes, saying something,
Speaker 2: whispering to each other, leaning over. They're obviously a little sauce.
Speaker 2: They just keep talking. So twice politely, I go, can
Speaker 2: you please stop talking?
Speaker 3: Nothing?
Speaker 2: I go again, can you please stop talking? Nothing? I
Speaker 2: am getting more and more enraged. They are not stopping.
Speaker 2: It is constant, because I also understand, like a story
Speaker 2: hits and you're like, oh my god, or that was lovely,
Speaker 2: Like I'm not like, I'm not a psychopath, but it
Speaker 2: was like consistent little chatters, over and over and over
Speaker 2: and leaning and moving. I get the usher. The usher
Speaker 2: then tells them to stop talking. While he's telling them
Speaker 2: to stop talking, the other two are having full comes. Finally,
Speaker 2: I go, stop talking, and this woman turns around and goes,
Speaker 2: what the fuck is your problem? What do you want?
Speaker 2: I go, I need you to shut the fuck up.
Speaker 2: Stop talking. They barely do. Next thing, you know, it
Speaker 2: is Kat's Anton cousins and we are the only ones
Speaker 2: left in the house.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, oh my god.
Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, we just interviewed somebody like ten
Speaker 1: minutes ago who told us a story where I went
Speaker 1: and like put my hands over my mouth and I
Speaker 1: just did the exact same thing.
Speaker 2: Oh my, and I actually, why are you talking at
Speaker 2: your at your niece's like that? Well, I do get
Speaker 2: it a little because they relate.
Speaker 3: You know, she mentions their mom.
Speaker 2: You know, she mentions like they know her, So I
Speaker 2: understand that they like have a deeper knowledge of her life,
Speaker 2: the songs, the story.
Speaker 3: And what happened.
Speaker 2: But then she turned around to yell at me. That's
Speaker 2: when it hit me. I go, oh my god, they're related.
Speaker 2: I go, this is her family. I go, this is
Speaker 2: her fucking family.
Speaker 3: I know it.
Speaker 2: I go, I bet we're gonna be all meetings. So
Speaker 2: then I don't move, and neither do they. So then
Speaker 2: I sit somewhere else. The stage manager, who like told
Speaker 2: him to be quiet, comes over. He goes, well, this
Speaker 2: is awkward. I go, honey, don't I know it? I go,
Speaker 2: you know that's her family. He goes, oh yeah, he goes.
Speaker 2: And so then Kat comes out with her like nebulizer
Speaker 2: thing because her vocals are incredible in the show, and
Speaker 2: I would say I've never seen a one person show
Speaker 2: with such incredible like set design, props, the band, the
Speaker 2: lighting is unreal, Like she sounds incredible.
Speaker 3: Isn't Lane?
Speaker 2: No, it's at the Lucille Lortel Lucille Hotel Nice yeaeah.
Speaker 2: So it's it's a huge space and she's doing it
Speaker 2: till September twenty fifth, but like an incredible show. But
Speaker 2: so then she comes out and like they go to
Speaker 2: Hugger and I'm standing a little further back and she's like,
Speaker 2: come here, it's my family. I go, you come here,
Speaker 2: and she's she's like, I've never seen you so demure,
Speaker 2: Like what's going on? I go, it got volatile between
Speaker 2: me and your family. She starts laughing. She goes, what
Speaker 2: I go. I yelled at them to stop talking multiple times.
Speaker 2: I'm like I can't really go over there, and they
Speaker 2: actually don't give a fuck. And then but she said,
Speaker 2: she goes, I'm not surprised. She goes, I'm not surprised
Speaker 2: at all.
Speaker 3: And then she.
Speaker 2: Texts me later she's like, you have to tell me
Speaker 2: what happened. They are so loud, like they never shut up.
Speaker 2: So like she did, like that's what it's her face.
Speaker 2: But I'll see them at the wedding, so that'll be nice.
Speaker 2: Like crazy, oh my god, truly were the only ones
Speaker 2: left in there, Like it was me and like the
Speaker 2: four of them.
Speaker 1: It's just like, okay, like I get that you know
Speaker 1: this person, and I'm sure the little stories are making
Speaker 1: you go, oh, I remember that look at each other
Speaker 1: with a little look tap each other. You don't have
Speaker 1: to like have a convo about everything because you are
Speaker 1: affecting how other people are experiencing.
Speaker 2: But it is my curse. It is my curse. I'm
Speaker 2: always near the worst behaved people. I had to tell
Speaker 2: people behind me multiple times during my last visit at
Speaker 2: Oh Mary to stop talking, like I really don't understand,
Speaker 2: and I had a whole I'm gonna be like, have
Speaker 2: you never gone to the theat or like in my head,
Speaker 2: it's like the lights are on one person and you
Speaker 2: listen to them and then you talk about it after
Speaker 2: or if something crazy or something.
Speaker 3: But it's also an hour show like how much do
Speaker 3: you have to talk? But no.
Speaker 2: Once I like yelled at them a few times and
Speaker 2: I could tell they kept talking. I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, I bet it's their family. I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: her fucking family. I'm like, we're gonna be the only
Speaker 2: ones left in the house.
Speaker 3: I know it.
Speaker 2: So it was definitely like I have to stop interacting
Speaker 2: with people.
Speaker 3: I have to leave.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do, but I definitely can't
Speaker 2: be fighting people's family. And I was texting or being
Speaker 2: like I'm humiliated. She's like, you don't have to be.
Speaker 2: It's pretty funny. I go, well, I just like fought
Speaker 2: your family at your show, Like this sucks for me.
Speaker 1: I cannot believe it was like just wait in the
Speaker 1: house and it was just you and these people.
Speaker 3: That's fucking great. That's cold.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I wouldn't say it's limited to live performances.
Speaker 1: You don't like it when people do it at movies or.
Speaker 3: I'm very strict, and that's why I go alone.
Speaker 2: And that's why I don't go with people, because everyone
Speaker 2: bothers me. I mean, Jared just looks at his phone
Speaker 2: Jered Gold see, and I can't be out.
Speaker 3: Oh I can't. He'll just check it something because he
Speaker 3: saw the audist. See.
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, I can't. I wish I could enjoy
Speaker 2: things with you, and he goes, oh, yeah, I checked
Speaker 2: my phone a lot, and I'm like, yeah, I cannot deal.
Speaker 2: That's why I go alone. I go it off hours
Speaker 2: so then if someone bothers me, I can even move
Speaker 2: to a different seat, Like I don't want to ruin
Speaker 2: other people's times. I want people to enjoy themselves too.
Speaker 2: And I'm also understand like if we're all going to
Speaker 2: a midnight movie or we're going to a horror movie
Speaker 2: and we're screaming like a Mortal Kombat, I'm acting different
Speaker 2: than I am certain other movies. Yeah, but like I
Speaker 2: just and I don't know if it's because I'm a
Speaker 2: performer too. I just don't understand. Because it's also like,
Speaker 2: who knows if they spent money or not. They're obviously rich,
Speaker 2: but in my head, it's like going to a comedy
Speaker 2: shore or something ends up costing one hundred plus dollars.
Speaker 2: You know you're buying the ticket, there's usually a drink minimum.
Speaker 2: Who knows if you had to buy a babysitter, pay
Speaker 2: for parking. So in my head, like you think you're
Speaker 2: just talking in the audience, but there's people next to
Speaker 2: you that could have driven past state lines. They've been
Speaker 2: waiting for this, they bought tickets five months in advance.
Speaker 1: Like not only but courtesy is contagious, and so is rudeness.
Speaker 1: I think if people hear you talking, they think they
Speaker 1: can talk and then.
Speaker 3: It's like, then we're ruining the whole fucking thing.
Speaker 2: So I'm I think I'm extra sensitive to it. But
Speaker 2: do you remember when we went to see the screening
Speaker 2: of Fire Island?
Speaker 3: And yes, that's exactly what I thought of the second
Speaker 3: this started.
Speaker 2: But then when I told them to stop talking, like
Speaker 2: how much better the experience became immediately, Like I should
Speaker 2: have yelled at them earlier. But I do feel self
Speaker 2: conscious because it's like that in the Fire Island screening,
Speaker 2: I was like, this is a gay movie. I've never
Speaker 2: even been to Fire Island like that. Let these boys
Speaker 2: enjoy their movie like this is I'm a guest in
Speaker 2: their space.
Speaker 3: Like that's how I kept yeah, And then finally I
Speaker 3: had to go.
Speaker 2: Are you really not gonna stop for one fucking second?
Speaker 2: Like it's the fucking emotional crux of the movie. Can
Speaker 2: you not let Bowen and Joel have a fucking heart
Speaker 2: to heart for one fucking silent moment?
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2: Same with Casey Muskroves concert, like I yelled at these
Speaker 2: people because it's like this isn't allowed. I just I
Speaker 2: had these Kcy musk Greaves tickets.
Speaker 3: For like ten months.
Speaker 2: They're two hundred plus dollars, like, I don't know, it
Speaker 2: drives me insane, so I obviously am too extra strict
Speaker 2: about it. I felt very seen at Caleb's podcast because
Speaker 2: Matteo like I would never go to the movies with him,
Speaker 2: you know, like he taught he likes to chat. Marie
Speaker 2: likes to chat, like they're chatters. And so Matteo is
Speaker 2: telling Caleb on the pod like, oh, I want to
Speaker 2: show you my favorite movie, my best friend's wedding, But
Speaker 2: how do you watch movies? Like we like to make
Speaker 2: jokes and talk, And Caleb went, I am very strict,
Speaker 2: and I expect obedience and like discipline and like shut
Speaker 2: your mouth. And I felt very seen in that moment
Speaker 2: because it's not like fun but I, I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's obvious I'm the problem. It's me, I thought her. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like I can't, I can't really walk away from this
Speaker 2: experience feeling great, you know right, that is so freaking funny.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, Jared.
Speaker 1: Jared had to stop going to He goes to double
Speaker 1: features at the New Beverly all the time, which is,
Speaker 1: you know, Quentin Tarantino's theater. It's like very movie people
Speaker 1: go there and it's like you do not look at
Speaker 1: your phone, and his friend just kept whipping out his
Speaker 1: phone and he was like stop coming with me, like
Speaker 1: stop coming, and so he's like stopped. Like this guy
Speaker 1: would not he would not like respond his invitations to
Speaker 1: go anymore.
Speaker 2: No, and we were gonna like I was too tired,
Speaker 2: you know, I've been traveling so much. But like I
Speaker 2: went to dinner Estuday with some friends and we were
Speaker 2: gonna maybe try to go to a movie, but it
Speaker 2: was a movie with do Alipa's husband.
Speaker 3: I don't give a shit.
Speaker 2: Check your phone, like you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 2: there are you know, wait, is it.
Speaker 3: The one where people can only have sex for one
Speaker 3: day out of the year. It's called one night only? Yeah,
Speaker 3: one night Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because when he came on, that promo came on during
Speaker 1: an odyssey, and I was like, what is this show?
Speaker 1: Like they're all talking about how they need to fuck
Speaker 1: that night, but nobody says at the beginning of the promo,
Speaker 1: maybe I missed it. Well, you know, this is the
Speaker 1: only night of the year we can fuck, right, Like,
Speaker 1: so I don't know what's going on in the promo,
Speaker 1: but everyone's dressed up looking to fuck and I'm like,
Speaker 1: is it New Year's but it's sunny in New York City?
Speaker 3: Like what where are we in a fictional city? Where
Speaker 3: are we? Like? I was so.
Speaker 1: Confused, and then I go, oh, this is do Alipa's
Speaker 1: new husband to Jared who doesn't care, and then jaya.
Speaker 2: A Lipa is an avid reader, he should care. She
Speaker 2: created a library with all bands books. She has a
Speaker 2: book podcast that she interviews authors and like a lot
Speaker 2: of I'm not deep that deep in, but they say
Speaker 2: that like she's one of the few people that actually
Speaker 2: like fully reads the books. And and then I saw
Speaker 2: an Instagram story from someone that didn't know she was
Speaker 2: a pop star and only knew her from the book stuff.
Speaker 3: So then someone mentioned her image and it goes, oh, you.
Speaker 2: Love the book podcast, and they're like, what the fuck
Speaker 2: are you talking about?
Speaker 3: And then he learned that she's like the biggest pops.
Speaker 1: To your favorite podcaster is just like popping and walking
Speaker 1: in Brazil like to a sold out stadium.
Speaker 2: No, so I think maybe Jared might get into do Alipa.
Speaker 2: She's a really apple reader.
Speaker 1: I had to look up one night only later to
Speaker 1: find out that that's the premise is that there's like
Speaker 1: only one night of sex or whatever. I don't I'll
Speaker 1: catch that one on a plane. But I exactly.
Speaker 2: But that's why I was like, oh, I'll go with
Speaker 2: friends and talk like I am a fun person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I just I did see Odyssey and
Speaker 1: then I really liked it. And then I read that
Speaker 1: review that you sent me of the woman who did
Speaker 1: the translation of the Odyssey. She didn't like it, but
Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I was not looking
Speaker 1: for a like text perfect following of the Odyssey. I
Speaker 1: knew I was going to see at Christopher Nolan movie,
Speaker 1: so what I got was entertaining, you know, But like
Speaker 1: she was like, one of the funniest things in the
Speaker 1: Odyssey is this part they didn't even include it?
Speaker 3: What about?
Speaker 1: And like why didn't they show any gods. I'm kind
Speaker 1: of like, I don't know the way Christopher Nolan's going
Speaker 1: to show gods. It's going to be really like weird,
Speaker 1: I feel like, or over the top. And I kind
Speaker 1: of liked the way that it was. But she had
Speaker 1: some points. But some of her points I thought were
Speaker 1: deeply you are a scholar of the Odyssey and really well,
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 2: It's also because he like if he just did the movie,
Speaker 2: I don't think it'd be I think I don't think
Speaker 2: she would have written that or cared. But he kept
Speaker 2: kind of talking about how it's her adaptation. He followed
Speaker 2: to it, that's what it is, like she he just
Speaker 2: kept being like Emily Wilson, Emily Wilson, this is the one,
Speaker 2: this is the one. Like an interviews, he kept addressing
Speaker 2: her book, and I think if he didn't do that,
Speaker 2: or maybe only at once, she wouldn't have cared. But
Speaker 2: because she's also getting all this vitrial from like the
Speaker 2: in cells and stuff of like this dumb bitch and
Speaker 2: connected to this movie that she didn't really like, like
Speaker 2: I think I think her being like, hey, he didn't
Speaker 2: actually use my book, okay, and there should have been
Speaker 2: more fucking and good looking food. Like so she is
Speaker 2: a dork though obviously, like I saw her speaking in
Speaker 2: ancient Greek at like an interview like these Greek.
Speaker 1: She has interesting points too, though, but some of the
Speaker 1: points I was like, like, at one point she was like,
Speaker 1: so it's bad to murder people when the Trope, when
Speaker 1: the Greeks do it to the Trojans, but it's not
Speaker 1: bad when like Matthew when when when I'm sorry, Odysseus
Speaker 1: like murder like murders all these suitors and sorry that's
Speaker 1: a spoiler, but like, uh, that's the Odyssey.
Speaker 3: You read it in ninth grade, so oh my god.
Speaker 2: My friend was telling me there's people online me like,
Speaker 2: shut up and stop pretending you read this in high school,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I read it in sixth grade.
Speaker 3: You fucking more on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would never judge anyone for what they read
Speaker 2: and didn't read. But like he was just saying, he
Speaker 2: like someone was claiming that we're all lying that we
Speaker 2: read it as children, and it's like I wouldn't do
Speaker 2: it on my own.
Speaker 3: We had to read it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like your intro to Greek mythology at
Speaker 1: least our like age group.
Speaker 2: But I okay, wait, so wait, but now you have
Speaker 2: to read the Joyce Carol Oates one of Emily Wilson's article.
Speaker 2: So that's for next week. You let us know what
Speaker 2: that's like. Oh wait, Joyce.
Speaker 3: Carol Oates then responds, and.
Speaker 2: Emily Wilson, You're like a dumb bitch, like get a life.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, women on women violence.
Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't read the Joyce one yet, but like,
Speaker 2: so that's really funny. I also Anthony jessel Nick just
Speaker 2: had a huge feature in the La Times about his
Speaker 2: book club.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I know.
Speaker 1: And actually I have written down some of the books
Speaker 1: that I've seen Anthony mention on Instagram and stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a big reader.
Speaker 2: I mean it's really like opened my life to such
Speaker 2: to such new things.
Speaker 3: It's really been so beautiful. Yeah Joyce.
Speaker 1: Carol Oates panned Emily Wilson's Odyssey, Pan, I can't wait
Speaker 1: to read this, okay for next week.
Speaker 3: But I thought Matt Damon did a great job.
Speaker 1: Anne Hathaway gorgeous, so good again, like yeah, he the
Speaker 1: women could have all done a lot more. But I
Speaker 1: thought the woman that played Searcy, she's a way what
Speaker 1: is her name, She's like an Oscar winning actor, Samantha Morton.
Speaker 1: Samantha Morton. Yeah, sorry, you had that quickerles. I just
Speaker 1: saw Casey the movie buff would know that one. She
Speaker 1: was excellent, Like, she had a great I thought she
Speaker 1: had a great part.
Speaker 2: Well, I was at my hair stylis house or she
Speaker 2: was at whatever. She accidentally said it was Samantha mathis
Speaker 2: not more And and I went she's been on the
Speaker 2: pod and so then when I saw that, that's why
Speaker 2: her name is so in my head, because I was like,
Speaker 2: I can't wait to see her again, to be like girl,
Speaker 2: Yeah it was not Samantha mathis right.
Speaker 3: I so you loved it, you liked it, you had
Speaker 3: a good time.
Speaker 1: I had a great time. It's a little under three hours.
Speaker 1: I felt like it flew by. I thought it looked cool.
Speaker 1: I mean like, yeah, I didn't read any I didn't
Speaker 1: like refresh my memory on the Odyssey before I went,
Speaker 1: or I might have been like, huh, that didn't happen
Speaker 1: like that, But like the Odyssey of all Things was
Speaker 1: an oral tale that was told from person to person
Speaker 1: and changed over time. So I think if he does
Speaker 1: his own interpretation of it, that's fine.
Speaker 3: It's fine.
Speaker 2: I think if it was if it wasn't so attached
Speaker 2: to her book, she probably wouldn't have written anything. Probably, Yeah,
Speaker 2: But I was thinking I wanted to read Sircy before
Speaker 2: I saw it. But now I'm in this other book,
Speaker 2: so we'll see if I can get finished this one,
Speaker 2: because this one's over four hundred pages, so we'll see.
Speaker 2: But you know, I the Song of Achilles is like
Speaker 2: what I read that, like alterned my being mm and like,
Speaker 2: so I just hate these motherfuckers, Like I hate what's
Speaker 2: his name, Agamenonon I'll slip yeah, because I just read it.
Speaker 3: I don't know how to say any of their names,
Speaker 3: Like who plays him?
Speaker 1: Agamemnon in the Odyssey is played by Benny SAFTI right,
Speaker 1: it's one of the Safty So it.
Speaker 2: All works out because in the book Song of Achilles,
Speaker 2: like I will murder that man and Odysseus, all of them,
Speaker 2: you fucking losers, like you have to go to war,
Speaker 2: like get a life.
Speaker 3: She doesn't want to be with you, she doesn't want
Speaker 3: to be with you.
Speaker 2: Helen's been taken, like for them to have ruined Achilles
Speaker 2: and what how do you say Petrocolis, Petrocolis, petrocolis. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like I just they're my heart and soul. And so
Speaker 2: I'm just mad at everyone. So I don't know if
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be able to watch this. I'm like so mad,
Speaker 2: but I'll obviously see I want to see the invite
Speaker 2: though before sorry, I have to see that.
Speaker 1: I want to see the invite really badly because yeah,
Speaker 1: my friend just texted me and was like there's a
Speaker 1: person in it that reminds us of a friend or something,
Speaker 1: and so I really need to see it. Okay, so
Speaker 1: we are in the time machine obviously because I'm in
Speaker 1: the woods or whatever.
Speaker 3: But and so this will be late for a lot
Speaker 3: of you.
Speaker 1: But people have been asking us to weigh in on this,
Speaker 1: and I my algorithm knows I'm a mom, and so
Speaker 1: it constantly sends me child death. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that happens to other people that are moms that listen
Speaker 1: to this podcast or parents, like it will be like
Speaker 1: like this person's baby drowned, and like what you know,
Speaker 1: it just like sends you articles all the time about
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. So this stuff was like coming
Speaker 1: into my feed, and then the more I started interacting
Speaker 1: with it, the Lindsey Clancy trial has literally taken over
Speaker 1: my entire social media feed in a way that I
Speaker 1: don't enjoy. But I have been deep diving into it
Speaker 1: a little bit more. And so this is a woman who,
Speaker 1: in a bout of postpartum psychosis, took the lives of
Speaker 1: her three children while her husband was out of the
Speaker 1: house for like literally fifty minutes.
Speaker 3: Like it's a really, really wild.
Speaker 1: Timeline, and people are the internet is interneting really hard
Speaker 1: and are trying to make it. Are trying to say
Speaker 1: that she didn't do it, that her husband did it.
Speaker 1: She doesn't remember doing it, but she's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: must have done it, because like his timeline adds up,
Speaker 1: he was at CBS. He picked up the the takeout
Speaker 1: and then he went back to the house and he
Speaker 1: found her outside in the snow. She had jumped out
Speaker 1: of a second when second floor window. She is paralyzed
Speaker 1: from the waist down from this jump. By the way,
Speaker 1: I only found that out a few days ago. She
Speaker 1: had tried to slit her wrists. She had tried to
Speaker 1: take her own life, and then the kids were in
Speaker 1: the basement and were One of them was able to
Speaker 1: be resuscitated, but then died a couple of days later,
Speaker 1: so that the children were all to see.
Speaker 3: It's like so heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: And this woman was a labor and delivery nurse, Like
Speaker 1: she was not a person that was like yeah, I
Speaker 1: kind of just met this guy and he wanted kids
Speaker 1: and like whatever, Like she loved babies and like loved
Speaker 1: her children and had asked reached out for help with
Speaker 1: mental with postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, all kinds of like
Speaker 1: postpartum issues that she was having, and she was prescribed
Speaker 1: medicine and then it would make her feel numb, and
Speaker 1: then she would get off of that medicine. And I
Speaker 1: understand there is like a cocktail of finding your medicine.
Speaker 1: But she checked herself in to a rehab, an inpatient
Speaker 1: rehab on January first, for five days, so she was
Speaker 1: there a roughly January first through fifth, and she killed
Speaker 1: her kids like nineteen days later. And in that rehab,
Speaker 1: it's like they asked her, do you have any plans
Speaker 1: to hurt yourself for anyone else?
Speaker 3: And she said no, and they were like, I guess
Speaker 3: we're good. Like I don't know.
Speaker 1: This feels like a failure of medical professionals.
Speaker 2: Well I saw the video of the fucking psychiatrist getting
Speaker 2: reamed out by this defense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think there's like the one issue.
Speaker 2: But also like this man has a new girlfriend four
Speaker 2: months later, your whole face, not a new girlfriend.
Speaker 3: Not a new girlfriend.
Speaker 1: He's remarried and has a new child with this and
Speaker 1: has a child with this woman, and the entire thing
Speaker 1: happened three and a half years ago. Like I listen
Speaker 1: when like a famous comedian, his wife passed away, he
Speaker 1: got married within a year, and people were trying to
Speaker 1: give him shit. I was like, no, he like that
Speaker 1: is a tragedy that happened to him, where he wants
Speaker 1: to move on and date someone else and falls in
Speaker 1: love with someone else.
Speaker 3: I think that's possible.
Speaker 1: I cannot believe that, Like your three children can be
Speaker 1: murdered by your wife and you can be like I'm
Speaker 1: ready to date, like within a three year span, and.
Speaker 2: You don't think there's any way that he did it,
Speaker 2: or like the police with the shady investigation, like there's
Speaker 2: none of that, Like she did it, and that's that.
Speaker 1: I think that the physical evidence is like he was
Speaker 1: not there when it happened and she was. But like
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of stuff people are bad badding, like
Speaker 1: all this stuff around Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and
Speaker 1: like there's all this conspiracy stuff going on. That's like
Speaker 1: his fingerprints were actually there and not hers, and then
Speaker 1: people are like that's not true. They're also filing a
Speaker 1: civil suit together, both of them. He immediately came out
Speaker 1: after this happened and said he wanted people to forgive
Speaker 1: his wife like he was like I, and people are
Speaker 1: like he was taking all these trips to New York
Speaker 1: and he was leaving her alone when he knew she
Speaker 1: was struggling, And then other people are like, no, he
Speaker 1: advocated for her to get help. He hired a nanny
Speaker 1: to help her around the house. He saved money knowing
Speaker 1: that she couldn't go back to work, like he was not.
Speaker 1: I think people are just trying to like villainize this guy.
Speaker 1: Is it possible in the realm of like what a
Speaker 1: podcast that we host where all these crazy things happen
Speaker 1: and we've read in SAE cases like a woman went
Speaker 1: to jail for seven months for a crime that her
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend framed her for. Like, of course, I think
Speaker 1: these things can happen, But I just have to believe
Speaker 1: that they've done so much digging into this and that
Speaker 1: if there was any evidence to support that, they wouldn't
Speaker 1: be a trial right now on this. I think it's
Speaker 1: crazy she's even on trial, Like I think this is
Speaker 1: like this person's life is ruined, Like there's no evidence
Speaker 1: that she premeditated killing her children, that she she literally
Speaker 1: her husband went out.
Speaker 3: She started hearing voices saying kill the kids.
Speaker 1: She heard a men's man's voice telling her to do it,
Speaker 1: and I think seeing like something like go with God
Speaker 1: or go to God or something like.
Speaker 2: Can they like can the psychiatrist go to jail? Like
Speaker 2: what because the attorney is doing such a good job.
Speaker 2: It's really like booking hole. You know, he's doing the
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt fucking dance like it is every clip I
Speaker 2: see is incredible. But his job is like to get
Speaker 2: her into a hospital seat of prison, Like she's not
Speaker 2: gonna be found not guilty, right right.
Speaker 1: Right, It's going to be prison versus and like this
Speaker 1: woman does not need to be in prison, like this
Speaker 1: woman who is so like we've seen killers on the
Speaker 1: stage and who are just like stone face. She's sobbing
Speaker 1: through the court proceedings. She's in a wheelchair. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I just don't see how this and then they're you know,
Speaker 1: I just think it's like fire, like postpartum is so
Speaker 1: woefully under researched, Like people do not understand she this
Speaker 1: woman did everything right, like she journaled, she went to doctors,
Speaker 1: she went back again. She said this isn't working, blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. She reached out, She told people, she told
Speaker 1: friends like she never specifically said I'm going to harm
Speaker 1: my kids, but that's because this was a like postpartum psychosis.
Speaker 3: Can come and go.
Speaker 1: It can just be like about of something that happens,
Speaker 1: you know. So it's really it's disheartening to see so
Speaker 1: many people be like it doesn't matter she murdered those kids.
Speaker 1: It's like, it does matter, Like if you're under a
Speaker 1: complete like fugue state caused by postpartum psychosis, it does
Speaker 1: matter to me.
Speaker 3: I think it matters.
Speaker 2: Well because there's also not how people usually react. I
Speaker 2: feel like, usually, like with Andrea Yates and all these people,
Speaker 2: like when you kill your own kids, people are pissed.
Speaker 2: So like the fact that so many women and like
Speaker 2: people are like behind her, it says something too right.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's other women that have done this where
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it was a black guy that took
Speaker 1: my car and drove and killed my kids, like they've
Speaker 1: created a whole story. This is like a woman who
Speaker 1: like and what I think. Another thing that's like weird
Speaker 1: is like her body was at eighty two degrees when
Speaker 1: they found her, and they're like, how is it possible
Speaker 1: that she got her body temperature lowered that much when
Speaker 1: he was only gone for like forty five minutes, Like
Speaker 1: she called him on the phone while he was at
Speaker 1: CBS and spoke to him and she sounded normal, and
Speaker 1: then he was home forty minutes later and this had
Speaker 1: all happened. So and everybody's like, it takes this much
Speaker 1: time to strangle someone and it couldn't have happened this way,
Speaker 1: and that he was drugging her to make her believe
Speaker 1: that she killed them, and then he set it all
Speaker 1: up to look like that, I mean, is it possible? Sure,
Speaker 1: Like I just like don't believe that this guy could
Speaker 1: have done it in a way that was so that
Speaker 1: not a stitch of evidence was found to support that.
Speaker 3: Like I don't know. I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Also psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists that listen to this
Speaker 1: podcast are going to weigh in that it's not that
Speaker 1: easy to just like see someone struggling and say, oh,
Speaker 1: you have post part of psychosists, or you have this
Speaker 1: or like you know, it's not like necessarily like it's
Speaker 1: not like a blood test where you're like, oh, we
Speaker 1: got it wrong, you know, like they were giving her
Speaker 1: different drug.
Speaker 3: Like I do know that finding the right.
Speaker 1: Drug cocktail that works for a specific person is a
Speaker 1: really specific process and it's not you know, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you should have given her this, or you should have
Speaker 1: known she was going to hurt her kids when, like
Speaker 1: she said, she never did. She also like, she also
Speaker 1: described herself as having intrusive thoughts, but later after the fact,
Speaker 1: it was determined that she was actually having hallucinations. She
Speaker 1: just didn't know the difference between intrusive thoughts and hallucinations.
Speaker 1: Like intrusive thoughts are kind of like you're driving your
Speaker 1: car and you're like, what if I just drove my
Speaker 1: car into this building, Like that's kind of an intrusive thought, right,
Speaker 1: Like a hallucination is like there's a man standing here
Speaker 1: telling me to kill my kids, Like you know, so
Speaker 1: she was having hallucinations but describing them as intrusive thoughts
Speaker 1: and so like, I don't know who can be blamed.
Speaker 3: I think it's a tragedy all around.
Speaker 1: And I don't think anything is solved by this woman
Speaker 1: going to jail personally, and if it makes them study
Speaker 1: postpartum and take post part of Like I go to
Speaker 1: my kid's pediatrician for their first year of life a
Speaker 1: ton of times because they've got to get all these
Speaker 1: shots and all these checkups, like at you know, this
Speaker 1: month and three months and four months and six months
Speaker 1: and whatever. And I fill out a survey every time,
Speaker 1: like am I crying uncontrollably? Am I feeling sad? Like
Speaker 1: you fill out these surveys. A lot of people are like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I really want to talk to
Speaker 1: my pediatrician about this. A lot of people are like,
Speaker 1: say that maybe something's happening, but not to the degree
Speaker 1: that it is. So I know they're trying to do
Speaker 1: more to identify when women are having these struggles, but
Speaker 1: there's still plenty of sietal pressure saying, oh, you just
Speaker 1: have the baby blue, suck it up like you're a mom.
Speaker 3: It's the best job in the world.
Speaker 1: Like, you know, I feel very lucky that I've said
Speaker 1: on this podcast before, I've never had any postpartum depression.
Speaker 1: But like I was saying to Jared, I go imagine
Speaker 1: if I had. Imagine if Jared left to go work
Speaker 1: on a movie when Rosie was two weeks old and
Speaker 1: he stayed there until she was eleven weeks old. If
Speaker 1: I suddenly thought I was gonna kill my kids, Like
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even imagine, like what I would
Speaker 1: have done if I had had like a stroke of
Speaker 1: or about of postpartum psychosis like this, you know, like
Speaker 1: I would I was alone with my kid for like
Speaker 1: two months, so I mean obviously babysitters and friends and
Speaker 1: people were coming around, but.
Speaker 2: Because of the guilt, it's like your guilt of that,
Speaker 2: but it's like you can't control. It's like insane amounts
Speaker 2: of hormones. Your body is going through the most insane
Speaker 2: thing ever, and it's like downplayed so men don't have
Speaker 2: to be as nice or something, but it's like the
Speaker 2: most psychotic thing that could happen to your body and
Speaker 2: hormones and brain. And then it's just like, wow, you
Speaker 2: better just be feeling great and ready to fucking six weeks.
Speaker 2: It's like, what the fuck is happening? Like the like
Speaker 2: complete ah, yeah, it's I mean, this is grim. But
Speaker 2: I was I don't know why I brought this up
Speaker 2: at dinner yesterday, but I was just saying, I'm like,
Speaker 2: if like abortion was just not a possibility and I
Speaker 2: got pregnant, like I would definitely jump off a bridge,
Speaker 2: Like I wouldn't. I don't know what I would do
Speaker 2: hopefully I can find another poison, but like I wouldn't
Speaker 2: go through I wouldn't be able to be pregnant. I
Speaker 2: really wouldn't like and it's opposite of what we're talking about,
Speaker 2: but it's like, uh, it is just such a huge
Speaker 2: fucking thing in the way it's dismissed in terms of
Speaker 2: reproductive talks of like just give it up for adoption.
Speaker 2: I don't want like the thought, like the thought of
Speaker 2: me being I don't know why this came up, probably
Speaker 2: because of this case. I'm thinking about all these things,
Speaker 2: like I don't know why I was. It's been swirling
Speaker 2: in me the last week, and I have an IUD
Speaker 2: but like I truly was like if I couldn't get
Speaker 2: an abortion and I was pregnant, I.
Speaker 3: Don't I don't know what I would do.
Speaker 2: I would truly I would be one of those people
Speaker 2: that like, yeah, because.
Speaker 1: It isn't just like you're getting fat for nine months.
Speaker 1: It's like it's a huge painful process to deliver the baby,
Speaker 1: and then there's repercussions mentally that can happen and physically
Speaker 1: for months afterwards, and you're just like have it get
Speaker 1: like give it up for adoption.
Speaker 3: It's just like it's so it's.
Speaker 2: And I think my point of view is maybe a
Speaker 2: minority or people just don't talk about it as much.
Speaker 2: But like the thought of it, truly, I like was
Speaker 2: sitting on I think a flight, being like, no, I
Speaker 2: would jump off a bridge, like I think I would
Speaker 2: jump off a bridge.
Speaker 3: Maybe I would do pills or something, but like, and.
Speaker 2: It's like fucked up to even talk about it like that,
Speaker 2: But I'm like, that is what I feel on the
Speaker 2: inside if I were to be pregnant, like I truly,
Speaker 2: I cannot even imagine it. Yeah, And then this woman
Speaker 2: wanted all these children she worked within.
Speaker 1: This she like, you know, she loved her children, but
Speaker 1: she just would like write journal entries that are like
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm suffocating. I feel like every day
Speaker 1: is like I'm just waiting for the next nap time.
Speaker 2: And that woman gave her zoloften. She shouldn't like that.
Speaker 2: Psychiatrists like she should be fucking imprisoned.
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't know the ins and outs
Speaker 1: of the psychiatry and how they could have prevented this.
Speaker 1: But this woman did like everything right, and I feel
Speaker 1: like she should just be be not being tried by
Speaker 1: like she should be just in a mental health facility,
Speaker 1: Like this is crazy. But I also feel like the
Speaker 1: internet is like they're like having fun with it in
Speaker 1: a way that is really creepy. Like everyone's like this lawyer,
Speaker 1: what he's gonna do is he's setting it up so
Speaker 1: that you can actually turn it around on the husband.
Speaker 1: And it's like all these professional lawyers are like, that
Speaker 1: is not how the law works. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Speaker 1: is not doing that. That is like not how you
Speaker 1: bring a case. Like it's not like a Law and
Speaker 1: Order episode where you you like implicate so someone else.
Speaker 2: He is poking holes. He has to set up reasonable doubt. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and he is. Yeah, you know, the lawyer is good.
Speaker 2: The lawyer is really good, and.
Speaker 3: Thank god she found this lawyer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's also suing the I think she's suing
Speaker 1: the practitioners. She's suing the practitioners civilly with her husband,
Speaker 1: like alongside them. Do they interact in court? I think
Speaker 1: he was only on the stand. I don't know if
Speaker 1: he comes to court every day, but I know he can't.
Speaker 1: He took the stand. I don't know if they interact,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, and.
Speaker 2: Then Luigi's state trial I think starts September eighth. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I'll try to be it's just too much to
Speaker 2: deal with.
Speaker 3: I know it's a lot.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Let's see, we've been babbling for a long time. Obviously,
Speaker 1: you guys can all in the comments of, like, you know,
Speaker 1: our Instagram post for this episode. You can let us
Speaker 1: let us know your feelings on this. But I'm sure
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's like I'm not saying like completely impossible,
Speaker 1: but I'm saying very likely, not possible, that this husband
Speaker 1: has completely framed and that this trial is so under
Speaker 1: the public in the public eye and under a microscope,
Speaker 1: and that like he did everything according to plan and
Speaker 1: nothing is and there's no evidence against him.
Speaker 3: Anyway, let's get started with the episode.
Speaker 1: You guys can go to That's Messed Up Live dot
Speaker 1: com obviously for our merch for links to Liza's tour dates,
Speaker 1: for link to our patreon if you'd like to join
Speaker 1: our patreon. We have two beautiful tiers of our patreon,
Speaker 1: and we're doing fun stuff over there, interviewing fun people,
Speaker 1: talking about conspiracy theories, watching book reviews, everything and anything.
Speaker 3: We're doing it over there.
Speaker 1: Patreon dot com slash that's messed up. And then let's
Speaker 1: get started with today's episode. All right, today we are
Speaker 1: doing Guardians and Glatty from season twenty two, episode one.
Speaker 1: This is the season opener of the twenty second season,
Speaker 1: and we are deep in COVID.
Speaker 3: It's from November of twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the masks are a problem on the off.
Speaker 3: Like the masks watching.
Speaker 1: Yes, as we've mentioned, like the mask use is very sporadic,
Speaker 1: And I wrote, first of all, lol to the card
Speaker 1: saying this is a fictional story and doesn't depict any
Speaker 1: actual person, Like I feel like whenever I see that card,
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, for sure, this is an episode decidedly
Speaker 1: based on an actual person. And then keep in mind
Speaker 1: it's like November of twenty twenty. We're in the height
Speaker 1: of we've had like Black Lives Matter, all of these
Speaker 1: like all the defund the police. Karen's like and the
Speaker 1: episode opens immediately with a Karen in a mask screaming
Speaker 1: at a man who's videotaping her and worsing the POV
Speaker 1: of his phone, and she has a kid with her
Speaker 1: and he's like, Mom, can you stop being such a
Speaker 1: dumb bitch, can we just go? And the man turns
Speaker 1: the camera on himself and obviously he's a black man,
Speaker 1: and the Karen is calling the cops on him to
Speaker 1: report him, and it's like for what exactly, Like she
Speaker 1: will not say, and so she calls the cops and goes,
Speaker 1: there's a black man here in the ramble in Central
Speaker 1: Park and he's threatening my son. And the guy's like,
Speaker 1: I'm just working out, uh, and he's like, this is
Speaker 1: America in twenty twenty. So this episode's very interesting because
Speaker 1: the show really decided to.
Speaker 3: Tackle this stuff like really head on. I think there
Speaker 3: is no way not to, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's like the show in theory is cp Ganda.
Speaker 2: We've talked about the depth how sview is different than
Speaker 2: other departments, and that's what makes the show special. But
Speaker 2: it is, it is what it is. We hate defense attorneys.
Speaker 2: We love when they break the law, and we love
Speaker 2: when so it would be crazy not to cover like
Speaker 2: the Black Lives Matter and cops murdering black people constantly
Speaker 2: for with no punishment, Like it would be easy for
Speaker 2: them not.
Speaker 1: To, yeah, yeah, yeah, And we we can talk at
Speaker 1: the end about how they handle it, but we cut
Speaker 1: to the police now rolling up and now we're seeing
Speaker 1: everything through their bodycam footage POB. So we were seeing
Speaker 1: everything through a cell phone, now it's through bodycam, and
Speaker 1: it's I think that's like an interesting commentary on how
Speaker 1: like everything is being filmed now, like the whole crowd
Speaker 1: around them, everyone's stopped. Like people aren't really like no,
Speaker 1: I mean not like you need people to get involved,
Speaker 1: but no one's like, oh wow, it seems like this
Speaker 1: is an unfair thing happening.
Speaker 3: Everyone's just like I got to get this on video,
Speaker 3: like you know.
Speaker 1: And the guy is defending himself and the mom is like,
Speaker 1: he's scaring my son, and meanwhile the son is like, mom,
Speaker 1: I need to go find my ball. Like the kid
Speaker 1: is at best annoyed, like he is not scared at all,
Speaker 1: and it's like seems like his mom is bothering him
Speaker 1: the most. And Dylan, the little boy, has run off
Speaker 1: to find his ball and he's like, Mommy, mommy, there's
Speaker 1: a man. So in the middle of this ridiculous Karen
Speaker 1: led harassment of a black man, this Karen's son finds
Speaker 1: a body. It's truly the only way SVU could do
Speaker 1: this is Karen could portray Karen's is the way they're
Speaker 1: doing it. And the guy they find lying on the ground,
Speaker 1: he's moaning, he's alive and he's bleeding, and the woman
Speaker 1: immediately says that says, oh it's I knew something was
Speaker 1: about this guy.
Speaker 3: He must have done it.
Speaker 1: So this woman thinks she stumbled upon a guy who
Speaker 1: hurt somebody and then he made her son feel unsafe,
Speaker 1: and so she started videotaping called the cops like she
Speaker 1: really feels like she's the hero here. And the cops
Speaker 1: arrests the man and they claim he's resisting and they
Speaker 1: basically take him down, and you can tell that they're
Speaker 1: not doing it in a nice way, right, Like this
Speaker 1: is definitely a commentary on you know, how the cops
Speaker 1: use unnecessary force. So finally we're and this is not,
Speaker 1: by the way, our cops. These are uniforms. Finally we're
Speaker 1: done with the shaky camera. Peovis and Benson is on
Speaker 1: the scene with Rollins. The victim says his name is Eric,
Speaker 1: and these freaks are just recording NonStop on their phones
Speaker 1: while this young guy who was found with his pants
Speaker 1: down bleeding is on a stretcher and Rollins is trying
Speaker 1: to get the look he lose to step back. She's like,
Speaker 1: come on, guys, step back, step back, and they're like,
Speaker 1: we're allowed to record. We're allowed to record. And Eric's
Speaker 1: Eric's trying to give them a statement and goes, he
Speaker 1: went nuts, he raped me. And Kat's asking did you
Speaker 1: know your attacker? And he just kind of starts coding,
Speaker 1: like he just starts like passing out. And so Liv
Speaker 1: tries to send Kat in the bus with Eric, but
Speaker 1: COVID she's not allowed to get in the ambulance with them,
Speaker 1: so she'll meet them at the hospital. So live in,
Speaker 1: Finn talk to the uniform who arrested this s guy
Speaker 1: and he's like the man's combative and aggressive, and Finn's like,
Speaker 1: you arrested him for being aggressive and he goes, no, sir,
Speaker 1: good show of respect for Finn, and he goes, I
Speaker 1: ran his ID and he has two outstanding warrants. So
Speaker 1: when Liv goes over to the suspect, he recognizes her
Speaker 1: and goes, don't I know you? I know you right,
Speaker 1: And she's like, I'll be asking questions and he says,
Speaker 1: I'm not answering any of your questions. I don't even
Speaker 1: know why I'm under arrest, and he tells them that
Speaker 1: his outstanding arrests.
Speaker 3: Are for protesting.
Speaker 1: So now we talk to Karen and thus not her name,
Speaker 1: but we will be calling her that. And she's like,
Speaker 1: I knew he was up to no good from his
Speaker 1: body language and the way he raised his voice. He
Speaker 1: scared my son. And then she goes, I'm not one
Speaker 1: of those Karens. And it's like, you absolutely need to
Speaker 1: look in the mirror because you are exactly that.
Speaker 3: So Finn is like, live, do we have to do
Speaker 3: it this way?
Speaker 1: Like we're profiling this guy, like we don't have anything
Speaker 1: but the word of this Karen and whatever. And she's like,
Speaker 1: he's got warrants, he's not helping himself. There's literally like
Speaker 1: no proof that this man did a damn thing besides
Speaker 1: b black in Central Park. Central Park is very populated,
Speaker 1: Like it's not like you're in some I don't know,
Speaker 1: rural area where like yeah, sure, if you find a
Speaker 1: guy working out next to a body, you're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you probably did this. Like what's going on? Central Park
Speaker 1: has people everywhere at all times. And Finn goes, all right,
Speaker 1: put him in the car, and the guy goes nuts
Speaker 1: because like there's this moment where you're like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: kind of up to Finn, and then Finn goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess if the guy's not.
Speaker 2: Talking, that's upsetting to me. Yeah, and it's upsetting that
Speaker 2: finess to be in this situation obviously, you know.
Speaker 1: But yeah, like he's not talking, he's like, it's and
Speaker 1: it's also I think they feel pressure because of all
Speaker 1: the cameras, because all these people are videotaping them. They've
Speaker 1: gotten a lot of shit because Amorrow shot a kid,
Speaker 1: because Finn just shot a black man in the projects.
Speaker 3: Like the cops are just getting.
Speaker 1: A lot of pressure, as they should be from the
Speaker 1: public for being untrustworthy using unnecessary force, like you know,
Speaker 1: no knock warrants, Breonna Taylor, Like we've all seen this
Speaker 1: all unfolding culturally across the entire country. And then even
Speaker 1: in the context of the show, some of the officers
Speaker 1: of this unit have been in trouble recently for these
Speaker 1: shootings that not everybody thinks are good, even though they
Speaker 1: may have been declared good by IAB. So, like, the
Speaker 1: guy is freaking out, the cops are stop resisting, and
Speaker 1: then Live looks uncertain that she made the right call
Speaker 1: and now we're at the credits. So back at Live's office,
Speaker 1: they're watching footage while Careese slathers on some antibacterial and
Speaker 1: like that's going to keep all the COVID away and
Speaker 1: lives like, wait, this bitch called the cops before the
Speaker 1: victim was discovered. The UNI never told us that, like
Speaker 1: they didn't realize that she was complaining about this guy
Speaker 1: for no reason. They thought that they found the body
Speaker 1: and then they called the cops like they didn't know
Speaker 1: the order of operations here. So Caresee's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: basically like tell me, you guys didn't fuck this up.
Speaker 3: We have probable cause, right, and they.
Speaker 1: Mentioned the curfew violation warrants that this guy has against him,
Speaker 1: and Cariese's like, we're not prosecuting those, but this guy
Speaker 1: has nothing violent and no sexual assault in his record.
Speaker 1: And the victim, Erica Kino twenty six, lost consciousness before
Speaker 1: they could get a statement, and Coreese's lit up. They've
Speaker 1: got like jack shit and they want to go talk
Speaker 1: to the suspector's name is Jayvon Brown was played by
Speaker 1: Blake Anthony Morris. He explains, I work out there every
Speaker 1: morning after my night shift, like I'm a sorterer at
Speaker 1: this facility, Like, are you guys even asking the white
Speaker 1: lady questions? And he's like, I expect this nonsense from
Speaker 1: her talking about Benson, But doesn't this get old for you?
Speaker 3: Man to Finn and yeah, like.
Speaker 1: Finn's in a tough position as always. Now we're speaking
Speaker 1: to playing a nurse on TV Royalty. Steven Wallam, who
Speaker 1: here is playing Nurse Rudy Cindergard, and he's been on
Speaker 1: eight episodes of SVU, ranging from seasons twenty one to
Speaker 1: twenty six. But he also famously played a nurse named
Speaker 1: Thor in seventy nine episodes of Nurse Jackie.
Speaker 2: And I did see him on the sidewalk once and
Speaker 2: I said, huge fan, and he gave a wink and
Speaker 2: it was a nice moment. Oh love that pre SVU,
Speaker 2: or obviously would have had some other things to say
Speaker 2: pre r pod. This is yeah, a long time ago,
Speaker 2: or maybe not pre the pod, but pre him being
Speaker 2: on SVO.
Speaker 3: So probably pre the who knows.
Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it anymore, but I.
Speaker 3: Did see him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when did we start this podcast? On episode twenty
Speaker 1: When we started the podcast, it was episode twenty two,
Speaker 1: because we started the podcast a week after this episode aired.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean obviously we started recording a little bit earlier,
Speaker 1: but the first episode came out like in twenty twenty. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: so Rudy Cindergard, the nurse, is bummed. He's like, Eric's
Speaker 1: one of the good guys. Like he's a resident. They
Speaker 1: bumped him up during COVID to work the er. By
Speaker 1: the way, he's in like full scrubs, this guy full mass,
Speaker 1: like everything, and he's emotional, like, I'm sure the trauma
Speaker 1: of being a nurse in a COVID er in New
Speaker 1: York City is contributing to it. And also now it
Speaker 1: seems like this guy he was friendly with, he's like,
Speaker 1: we haven't been able to do a rape kit on him,
Speaker 1: but there is some anal trauma. He goes, I'll get
Speaker 1: you the clothes for DNA, and then he points them
Speaker 1: to Eric's family and goes, they're Filipino Catholics, so.
Speaker 3: They might not be aware of Eric's orientation.
Speaker 1: So in the room with Eric's mom and brother, she
Speaker 1: was like, I was always worried about him walking through
Speaker 1: the park, and did you get that guy from the video,
Speaker 1: And she goes the black guy, like she does not
Speaker 1: say black guy in a nice way. And because now
Speaker 1: this video has gone viral, right, this video of this
Speaker 1: man getting arrested and everyone thinks he's the one that's
Speaker 1: hurt Eric, So Rollins asked the brother, like about the
Speaker 1: social life, friends relationships, and he obviously can't talk in
Speaker 1: front of his mom, and his mom's like, no, there's
Speaker 1: no time for that.
Speaker 3: It's all work and family.
Speaker 1: And now Cat and Rollins are chatting like how could
Speaker 1: his family not know what he was doing in the
Speaker 1: Ramble at night? And Kat's like, my family had no clue,
Speaker 1: And I guess I'm finding out too, Like I didn't
Speaker 1: know the Ramble.
Speaker 3: Is a historic gay hookup spot, Like I had no idea.
Speaker 1: And I walked by that all the time because it's
Speaker 1: right below seventy ninth Street, and I lived on the
Speaker 1: upper West and would walk to the ubber East. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's got like a lot of little nooks
Speaker 1: and crannies and it's very wooded, so you can kind
Speaker 1: of hook up and have some fun. But the brother
Speaker 1: catches up to them and he's like, obviously has tea
Speaker 1: dispill that he couldn't say in front of mom, and
Speaker 1: he's like, Eric texted me last night and told me
Speaker 1: not to wait up. He likes to unwind after his
Speaker 1: shift and he goes to the outdoor bars on Ninth Avenue.
Speaker 1: That's a huge party scene now, so they're gonna check
Speaker 1: traffic cams, run his cards, et cetera.
Speaker 3: At s you've been.
Speaker 2: In New York, Like people were having margaritas in the streets. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like obviously a lot of people were dying and it
Speaker 2: was really sad and scary, but.
Speaker 3: People were having margarita's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like really scary New York at that time,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: It's like it because obviously people were dying.
Speaker 2: Their dead body is it's like a small city, so
Speaker 2: like every not small, but like like like there was
Speaker 2: nowhere to hide. But from La, it was just like
Speaker 2: watching a lot of my friends doing outdoor shows in
Speaker 2: the back of trucks and like walking the streets on
Speaker 2: patios having margarita's, and La felt so shut down. But
Speaker 2: obviously the joy was not worth all of the terrible things.
Speaker 2: But from a distance, I definitely was like, fucked, I
Speaker 2: make the right to sit because I'd only moved to
Speaker 2: La December twenty nineteen. So I just wasn't have a
Speaker 2: crazy time for you to have just moved to LA,
Speaker 2: for sure.
Speaker 3: But so I was so grateful to be in La.
Speaker 2: The weather, the walks, the community we had and all that.
Speaker 2: But definitely seeing people like doing packed outdoor shows was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I was jus.
Speaker 1: Even like my show, which is an outdoor show, didn't
Speaker 1: come back till July twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: Now LA was very locked down, very locked down, very
Speaker 2: locked down.
Speaker 1: So then at SVU, the TV is playing the video
Speaker 1: of Javon being manhandled by the MIPD. Kreese's like, this
Speaker 1: has five million hits already. I mean, you don't even
Speaker 1: want to know how many calls I'm getting. And then
Speaker 1: Lives like, well, we found a problem with Javon's timeline.
Speaker 1: So Cariese and Live go to talk to him and
Speaker 1: they're like, well, you got to the park at seven am,
Speaker 1: but you punched out at your job at five am,
Speaker 1: so what's up. Like the gap in your timeline is
Speaker 1: when Eric Aquino was attacked in the ramble, Just tell
Speaker 1: us where you were, and he goes, I was having
Speaker 1: coffee with my sponsor before our six am meeting. He's
Speaker 1: in narcotics anonymous NA. Last spring, he hurt his back,
Speaker 1: he got hooked on oxy. He's clean now and lives Like,
Speaker 1: why didn't you tell us this? And he like the
Speaker 1: thing is is like you could chuck it up to
Speaker 1: being like if this guy had just talked and explained
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff at the beginning, he probably wouldn't
Speaker 1: have even gotten brought in or arrested. But you can
Speaker 1: also understand why black men don't want to talk to
Speaker 1: the police because they ignore what you say, they twist
Speaker 1: what you say, they don't care.
Speaker 3: They like, you know, we.
Speaker 1: See time and time again, the police have their eye
Speaker 1: on a narrative and they just sail towards that narrative
Speaker 1: and they don't they ignore everything else.
Speaker 3: With blinders on. So the guy's like, ah, I wanted
Speaker 3: to move. I want to move up at my job.
Speaker 1: I get better benefits and better pay if I'm a driver,
Speaker 1: and I don't want the NYPD telling my boss that
Speaker 1: I'm in NA. And Finn's like, your boss is never
Speaker 1: going to hear that from us, but we need your
Speaker 1: sponsor's number. So at a bar on Ninth Avenue called
Speaker 1: Onny Maddens, the Irish bartender full Irish accent, recognize Eric
Speaker 1: from the news, but not from the night before, and
Speaker 1: he thinks he remembers Javon though, but he was slammed,
Speaker 1: and he goes, everyone was outside. My camera's busted, so
Speaker 1: I really can't help you with any footage, and they're like, listen, buddy,
Speaker 1: we don't really care if you black out the camera,
Speaker 1: so you can stay open after hours, and he's like,
Speaker 1: I'm a reputable establishment and Rollin's like, well, my tech
Speaker 1: guys can come down here, and he's like not without
Speaker 1: a warrant, they can't. So cat taps her out and goes,
Speaker 1: I just got traffic cam footage of Eric walking down
Speaker 1: the street with this white guy, so definitely not Javon.
Speaker 1: Rollins clocks this guy from being at the park earlier
Speaker 1: filming the arrest and kind of popping off with some
Speaker 1: BLM chan looky loose and now but I see this guy.
Speaker 1: I also clocked him because I remember thinking he kind
Speaker 1: of looks like a Tamu Kevin kin Like, he looks
Speaker 1: a little bit like Kevin Kine melting a little bit.
Speaker 3: And I was like, who is that? Te Ka?
Speaker 1: Because I thought to myself is that Kevin Kane and
Speaker 1: yet another role before he comes onto the show as
Speaker 1: a regular, but it's not. And then at the precinct,
Speaker 1: Now Live tells them, see if Taru can track down
Speaker 1: this guy from the video that he made, because he
Speaker 1: made a video of you know, Rollin's going please step back, guys,
Speaker 1: please step back or whatever. So meanwhile his sponsor, Javon sponsor,
Speaker 1: a corporate lawyer, thoroughly corroborates his story over speakerphone and
Speaker 1: says Javon's been diligently working his program, like I don't
Speaker 1: think he would jeopardize that, Like I don't see him
Speaker 1: committing these crimes, and they tell him he can go
Speaker 1: as soon as they get the eighty eight to drop
Speaker 1: the charges. Finn's like, one last question, we want to
Speaker 1: see if you can help us, if you know the
Speaker 1: guy who was with Eric, like the one who was
Speaker 1: filming at the scene of the arrest, and Javon's like,
Speaker 1: even if I did notice him, why would I help you,
Speaker 1: and lives like, I get it, you have a to
Speaker 1: be angry, and he goes, you don't have to tell me.
Speaker 3: I have a right to my anger.
Speaker 1: I know that, and then we cut to Rollins in
Speaker 1: the hospital church with Eric's mom and Rollins tells her
Speaker 1: it isn't the man from the video, and she does
Speaker 1: not recognize the white guy. Kat is showing the brother
Speaker 1: a picture of the white guy and she goes and
Speaker 1: he goes, well, that's Eric's type, like white preppy. He
Speaker 1: calls them his Chino boys, and he tells Kat about
Speaker 1: his brother and how he compartmentalized his life, like he
Speaker 1: kept his social life and his family and his work
Speaker 1: and everything very separate. So now at the precinct, we're
Speaker 1: seeing a video we saw earlier of Rollins telling people
Speaker 1: to move back, and it is titled hotty cop telling
Speaker 1: me to move We can No one can ever, just
Speaker 1: like not remind everyone like Rollin's is extremely hot. So
Speaker 1: then this guy films himself chanting defund the police, and
Speaker 1: there's no idea on this guy just to handle, which
Speaker 1: is thirst trap ninety four.
Speaker 3: So now they're all sitting around. Finn is wearing a mask.
Speaker 3: No one else's like.
Speaker 1: It's just really hilarious, Like people will just be wearing
Speaker 1: masks and then just take them off mid conversation, will
Speaker 1: show up one person wearing a mask. One's not like
Speaker 1: it's funny, like, I get it. They're all getting tested
Speaker 1: on this set. They're trying to I think they're trying
Speaker 1: to play the reality of New York City and not
Speaker 1: ignore the pandemic. But also, you can't show people on
Speaker 1: television not acting. We have to see their faces, you know.
Speaker 1: So they find a post of thirst Trap ninety four
Speaker 1: with some girls and there's three girls in the photo,
Speaker 1: and he goes track down the girl he didn't tag.
Speaker 3: She might have the more interesting story. Just then, Chief.
Speaker 1: Garland walks in. He needs to talk to Livi and
Speaker 1: Finn about Jaybon Brown. He's fa a lawsuit against NYPD
Speaker 1: and they've both been named.
Speaker 3: So now they're.
Speaker 1: Watching the footage live and Finn are like explaining their decisions,
Speaker 1: but Garland is like, shut it. You both sound defensive
Speaker 1: and that is not a good look these days, and
Speaker 1: liv says, we were by the book, and Garland yells, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the book that got us here. He's like, after
Speaker 1: George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, the city, the whole country is
Speaker 1: on boil, and businesses usual doesn't fly. Lives like I
Speaker 1: hear you, and he goes, yeah, well, one PP has
Speaker 1: launched an investigation and iab is starting with you. We're
Speaker 1: under a microscope going there, give short answers, don't over explain,
Speaker 1: and bring a lawyer.
Speaker 3: Then he's like, Finn, walk me out.
Speaker 1: So Garland asks Finn, would things have played out differently
Speaker 1: if Jayvon were white? And he's like, yo, I don't
Speaker 1: think Live has a conscious bias. Her only bias is
Speaker 1: for victims, and like, you're not going to get me
Speaker 1: to say that my boss. So you're not gonna get
Speaker 1: me to turn on Live basically and say that she's
Speaker 1: racist or whatever. And Garland's like, I know we don't
Speaker 1: relate on a lot, but we're both black and blue.
Speaker 1: We've been on this job a long time. Did you
Speaker 1: know my father joined the force in the seventies and
Speaker 1: made sergeant, which is as far as we could go
Speaker 1: back then. But he's like, but things are changing, and
Speaker 1: Finn's like, yeah, I've heard that before. The only thing
Speaker 1: I know is this country will always break your heart.
Speaker 1: Finn says, tough stuff. Garland says, this time it's different.
Speaker 1: It's a true inflection point, I know it, And Finn
Speaker 1: is skeptical, and Garland says, but the old Guard is
Speaker 1: not going to go down without a fight, there's going
Speaker 1: to be a purge. And he says, I appreciate your loyalty,
Speaker 1: but you got to watch out for yourself. This is
Speaker 1: your second lawsuit this year, and he's referencing the episode
Speaker 1: Things we Have to Lose, which is from the previous season,
Speaker 1: and Finn ended up shooting this man in front of
Speaker 1: his kid because the guy had a gun. He'd already
Speaker 1: raped his wife and they were worried he could have
Speaker 1: done anything, and he wouldn't put the gun down. So
Speaker 1: it's of course we see the whole thing and it
Speaker 1: seems like a good shooting, and he's like, that was
Speaker 1: a good shooting, and he goes, yeah, but you shot
Speaker 1: a black man in his home. It was a good shooting.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter. None of us are safe, not me,
Speaker 1: not you, not Benson. So it's interesting because they're taking
Speaker 1: you behind not just what Finn and Garland feel as
Speaker 1: black men being on the forest, but also politically like
Speaker 1: are we going to be scapegoats?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, Like I have noticed that the people that
Speaker 2: usually the police that usually do get in trouble are
Speaker 2: the women, like the Republicans that usually get arrested are
Speaker 2: the black people, like it still falls in line even
Speaker 2: if you play the game with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean Trump's mostly just fire when my
Speaker 1: women from his cabinet, Like he doesn't really fire these dudes.
Speaker 3: But so now Rollins and co.
Speaker 1: Are talking to the girl that thirst Trap ninety four untagged.
Speaker 1: I find it so crazy that they can't find this
Speaker 1: man's name, but they can find a girl in one
Speaker 1: of his photos who is untagged. But they found her.
Speaker 1: She says, the guy's name is Joe Murphy. We dated
Speaker 1: super briefly, and she goes, he needs to be canceled.
Speaker 1: And I feel like this is the show trying to
Speaker 1: shoehorn how cancel culture is a big thing happening at
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, but it's a little bit random, Like
Speaker 1: a man named Joe Murphy doesn't get canceled like Kevin
Speaker 1: Spacey gets canceled, you know what I mean, Like you
Speaker 1: don't really get you can lose your job, you could
Speaker 1: get outcast from your community. It's like cancelation I think
Speaker 1: is usually people that are more high profile.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's kind of like what like it just
Speaker 2: gets co opted to mean like fake news means so
Speaker 2: many things, right.
Speaker 3: Exactly, it just gets like, oh, now, you guys are
Speaker 3: going to cancel me.
Speaker 1: Because of like I guess he can refer to some
Speaker 1: comics getting canceled who aren't even a big deal because
Speaker 1: they don't get to play anymore.
Speaker 3: Clubs like won't hire them anymore. Whatever. But does that
Speaker 3: ever happen again? Barely?
Speaker 1: So she says, yeah, he untagged me because I broke
Speaker 1: up with him and he couldn't handle it.
Speaker 3: He was a charmer, but he changed.
Speaker 1: He really changed when he hit the Tequila Turnpike and
Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, basically he couldn't get it up,
Speaker 1: and then he'd go off on me. He'd apologize the
Speaker 1: next day with flowers. It was just like getting exhausting
Speaker 1: after a while. Twenty five years, I should have known.
Speaker 1: He's twenty five and still lives with his mom, which
Speaker 1: is funny because I feel like people live with their
Speaker 1: moms way longer than twenty five now. I was living
Speaker 1: with my parents when I was twenty three, and.
Speaker 2: Which is also such an American thing, like people live
Speaker 2: with their families all over the world very.
Speaker 3: Long time totally.
Speaker 1: When I lived in Italy, my Italian friends were in
Speaker 1: their thirties and all lived with their parents, every single one,
Speaker 1: not one of them have their own apartment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we really let capitalism and rich guys really fuck
Speaker 2: up our lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in such.
Speaker 2: Huge ways, because I'm thinking about high you know, when
Speaker 2: I was in Texas, it's like everything's with a fucking highway,
Speaker 2: you know, like if they're just.
Speaker 3: Some more walk couple cities.
Speaker 2: And then I it like it, you end up sounding
Speaker 2: like a crazy person when you start talking about any
Speaker 2: one issue because it all is so interconnected.
Speaker 3: It's like fucked and it all does boil down to
Speaker 3: just like money, money, yes, and don't.
Speaker 1: I mean I've been like on a real democratic socialist
Speaker 1: tip lately where I'm like, I think all of our
Speaker 1: problems essentially stem from the wealth inequality gap and we
Speaker 1: should have been doing something about this a long fucking
Speaker 1: time ago. But uh this so now, okay, we know
Speaker 1: this guy's twenty five, lives with his mom, and his
Speaker 1: name's Joe Murphy. So now we're at Burnetette Murphy's apartment.
Speaker 1: She opens the door, seeming a little groggy. It never
Speaker 1: gets addressed, but she seems a little wasted to me, like,
Speaker 1: I can't tell they asked to speak with Joe, and
Speaker 1: she goes, I don't think he's home. He's literally walked
Speaker 1: right behind her like she doesn't even like chat say,
Speaker 1: and he goes, mom, I'm right here, and then he goes, hey,
Speaker 1: blondie cop to Rollins, hope you're not upset about my video.
Speaker 1: He goes, I know I was all BLM in the park,
Speaker 1: but really, you cops didn't do anything wrong, Like you
Speaker 1: just sort of hate this guy immediately he's got a
Speaker 1: very punishable face. But also so you're at a thing
Speaker 1: chanting BLM, posting videos about bad cops. But then the
Speaker 1: minute the cops show up, you're like totally boot licking
Speaker 1: and like, actually, I love you guys, like cops rule.
Speaker 1: So that's the sky in a nutshell right up top.
Speaker 1: And then he goes, yeah, I heard that thug is
Speaker 1: filing a lawsuit. And it's like why is he a thug,
Speaker 1: like because he's a black man. And then she goes jut,
Speaker 1: he goes, jud need me to back you up, and
Speaker 1: Rollins is like, step aside, losers. I know how to
Speaker 1: handle like these horny freaks, and.
Speaker 3: She goes, yeah, actually we do.
Speaker 1: It would be so great if you could come down
Speaker 1: to the station and give us a statement, like Hatty
Speaker 1: blonde cop would love to see you down there. So
Speaker 1: at the precinct, there's scheming ways to get to give
Speaker 1: up his DNA because they did find some DNA on
Speaker 1: eric A Keino, and they're scheming on ways to get
Speaker 1: him to give up a DNA, and then Finn goes
Speaker 1: check it out. He's wearing a mask, and Kat goes, ooh,
Speaker 1: I'll get him a fresh one. Masks are the new
Speaker 1: coke cans. Everybody watch out, and Benson has to go
Speaker 1: to IAB. She asks Finn, did Garland say anything about
Speaker 1: me to you? And he goes, yeah, watch your back,
Speaker 1: and so Kat gives a guy, the guy a filtered
Speaker 1: mask and goes, it's it's NYPD protocol. Even though none
Speaker 1: of us are really wearing a mask right now, would
Speaker 1: it be okay if you wore a filtered mask and
Speaker 1: we took your old one? And it's, like I wrote,
Speaker 1: literally everyone is wearing masks at random at three minute intervals,
Speaker 1: So it's funny to me that she's like, we have protocol.
Speaker 1: So then she takes the old one. Boom, They've got DNA.
Speaker 1: So now they're asking him some questions. He's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know. Javon I don't know Eric, and then Rollin
Speaker 1: shows him the picture of him and Eric walking down.
Speaker 1: He's like, wait, I thought you guys. He goes, oh wait,
Speaker 1: that's him. I didn't put two and two together. So
Speaker 1: you two didn't have drinks together at this bar to
Speaker 1: a last call and he goes, no, no, it's not like that,
Speaker 1: and then he pulls his mask down. The protocol does
Speaker 1: not matter anymore and he goes, the guy followed me out.
Speaker 1: He was kind of hitting on me. I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be rude. So they're like, so you walked with
Speaker 1: him into the park and he goes, dude, do I
Speaker 1: look gay.
Speaker 3: I'm engaged.
Speaker 1: I went right to my fiance's place around four thirty
Speaker 1: or five, So then how did you end up back
Speaker 1: in the park at seven am? And he goes, oh, well,
Speaker 1: Ashley lives nearby. I heard all the sirens and I
Speaker 1: went to check it out. So they need to talk
Speaker 1: to Ashley. He goes, great, I'll call her, and Finn goes,
Speaker 1: we'll handle that, and he looks a little bit like,
Speaker 1: oh fuck, I'm not going to be able to give
Speaker 1: my quote unquote girlfriend fiance a heads up. So now
Speaker 1: at this iab meeting in walks Captain Curry. This is
Speaker 1: our first introduction to Captain Curry, who is still on
Speaker 1: the show. And she tells Benson, oh, we've actually she
Speaker 1: knows Benson and is like, we actually met briefly at
Speaker 1: Ed Tucker's funeral, and Benson doesn't really remember.
Speaker 3: Because the love of her life had just died.
Speaker 1: My words, not hers, but Curry was like, yeah, that
Speaker 1: was a really tough day for me too.
Speaker 3: Tucker was my rabbi.
Speaker 1: And she goes his poor wife, and that stings Benson
Speaker 1: for a second. She's like, oo, I forgot there was
Speaker 1: another lady in his life. And Benson has passed on
Speaker 1: a lawyer. She did not bring a lawyer. She goes,
Speaker 1: I know my conduct was by the book. So now
Speaker 1: at the precinct, Coreesy notices that Joe Murphy is dead
Speaker 1: asleep in interrogation. He goes, oh, good, that means he's guilty.
Speaker 1: And I forgot that. Guys that sleep are just so.
Speaker 2: Cocky, cocky, relaxed, Like you're so relaxed you're sleeping. But
Speaker 2: isn't that because if you're innocent maybe, or if you're innocent,
Speaker 2: you're relaxed. I actually don't remember and this could be
Speaker 2: one of those things that go back and forth depending
Speaker 2: on what they need in the moment, because I.
Speaker 1: Think if you're innocent, you're freaking out because you're like,
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything, and it feels like no one's
Speaker 1: listening to you. Yeah, but if you're guilty, maybe you
Speaker 1: just like honestly have to keep your breath control so
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 3: Beat a light detector or whatever.
Speaker 1: Rollins says, Yeah, the guy's alibi's bogus and we're still
Speaker 1: waiting on DNA.
Speaker 3: But he doesn't need to know that.
Speaker 1: So they wake this guy up from his nap and
Speaker 1: they bluffed him about how they're running the DNA and
Speaker 1: they think it's going to match the DNA on a keno.
Speaker 1: It's not really a bluff, that's like actually what they're doing,
Speaker 1: Like that's what they're doing. And he goes, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I left this out. He asked me to smoke a
Speaker 1: joint in the park. I'm drunk, and so I go
Speaker 1: with him. Then he gets persuasive. He closes, He says,
Speaker 1: close your eyes, pretend I'm a girl. I'm going to
Speaker 1: give you the best blow job of your life. And
Speaker 1: then he started to unzip me but I said I'm
Speaker 1: not gay, and I pushed him off of me and
Speaker 1: I ran and they're like, well, did you push him hard?
Speaker 1: And he goes, no, not hard. When I looked back,
Speaker 1: he was chasing me. He must have taken a fall,
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, did you see that happen? And
Speaker 1: then suddenly a lawyer comes in with caresy and they're.
Speaker 3: Like, he goes Joe's lawy is he?
Speaker 1: And it's Ron Frado who we just met in murdered
Speaker 1: at a bad address and he basically does to say
Speaker 1: hi to you mother for me to Careesy, but he
Speaker 1: says say hi to he assisted Teresa. We have no
Speaker 1: idea why he knows Teresa. But this guy knows the
Speaker 1: cares family somehow. Nylam, Yeah, yeah he was. He was
Speaker 1: defending the guy that wasn't the actual criminal and murdered
Speaker 1: at a bad address, I think anyway, And it turns
Speaker 1: out the lawyer was hired by the Irish owner of
Speaker 1: the bar. He's looking out for Joe and Joe's mom.
Speaker 1: So maybe I was right and the mom is a
Speaker 1: drunk and she was married or having an affair or
Speaker 1: something or relationship with this bar owner and now the
Speaker 1: bar owner is going to bail out her son. Okay,
Speaker 1: why getting him a lawyer? He goes, yeah, he's loyal.
Speaker 1: I drink for free every night. And this guy's just gross,
Speaker 1: like he's acting like we're talking about somebody getting assaulted.
Speaker 1: If you're innocent, you should be trying to prove your innocence.
Speaker 1: If you're guilty, which you are, you're bragging about how
Speaker 1: you get free drinks of it. And he has what
Speaker 1: my dad always called a shit eating grin. And back
Speaker 1: to Curry and Benson's little chat. Benson is explaining that
Speaker 1: Javon was already under arrest when she arrived. He wouldn't cooperate.
Speaker 1: She was trying to clear him as a suspect. And
Speaker 1: Curry's like, so, had you ever met Jayvon before? And
Speaker 1: Benson goes not to my knowledge. Curry brings up a
Speaker 1: stop and frisk from twenty thirteen outside the Wagner houses.
Speaker 1: Nicko Morrow filed the two fifty and this is a
Speaker 1: reference to the Civil Shepherd episode where a white woman
Speaker 1: This is based on Trayvon Martin where a white woman
Speaker 1: shoots this innocent black man. And then one of the
Speaker 1: men that you and your partner stopped and frisks that
Speaker 1: day was Javon Brown. So Benson's like, well, he must
Speaker 1: have fit the profile. We were pursuing a black male
Speaker 1: serial rapist. And what about yesterday? Benson explains herself again,
Speaker 1: and then she's like, well, did you officers run Colleen
Speaker 1: Reynolds's name, And Benson's like no, and she goes, well,
Speaker 1: if you had, you would find out that Colleen has
Speaker 1: a history of false allegations and accusations and her ex
Speaker 1: has a restraining order against her, and Benson's like, oh,
Speaker 1: my bad.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: Benson's like, my bad, I should have done that, Like
Speaker 1: that is a mistake, and Curry wants to know if
Speaker 1: Benson has considered why she made them mist and Benson's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not biased. I'm well aware of false accusations against
Speaker 1: men of color, and then Curry turns off the recorder
Speaker 1: and goes, I'm gonna stop you here before you tell
Speaker 1: me you're an ally. I think this whole conversation is
Speaker 1: really good and like should have been like nominated for something.
Speaker 1: I think this is like a really I think Curry
Speaker 1: is doing great acting, Benson's doing great acting. I think
Speaker 1: this is a really good scene and.
Speaker 2: The conversation is important because that's the whole thing.
Speaker 3: It's like unchecked bias. It's a carcass bias.
Speaker 2: It's like these biases exist within us, like like it's
Speaker 2: not even propagat Like society influences you, like the people
Speaker 2: around you influence you, like hello, advertising works on you. You're
Speaker 2: fucking brand loyal for no fucking reason, knowing that Johnson
Speaker 2: and Johnson owns all the competitors too, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. And it's like we are just influenced all
Speaker 2: the time. I'm sure there's psychologists that do it. And
Speaker 2: so to think that you're like above it and can't
Speaker 2: see it, well, that's annoying.
Speaker 1: That's I think what everybody at this time period with
Speaker 1: these books that are coming out like how to be
Speaker 1: not just say I'm not racist, but to be anti racist,
Speaker 1: you know, or like these books like we need to
Speaker 1: talk about race about like people are like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not racist, but completely unwilling to look inward at Wait
Speaker 1: why did I say that or think that? Like why
Speaker 1: do I have that opinion about this when like you're
Speaker 1: not interrogating your inner biases, which everybody does have. So,
Speaker 1: she Curry says, ever since George Floyd. I've taken so
Speaker 1: many statements from two kinds of cops, but to this
Speaker 1: is where the title of the episode comes in. But
Speaker 1: Tom swinging gladiators who take one look at me and
Speaker 1: can barely hide their disdain and the well intentioned guardian
Speaker 1: cops who don't see themselves as racist but are in
Speaker 1: denial about their complicity in the systemic racism within the NYPD.
Speaker 1: And Benson's like, well, I definitely know there's racism in
Speaker 1: the NYPD. Curry's like, what about your own bias? And
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm not racist, and then Curry goes, I'm
Speaker 1: sure you're not explicitly, but what about implicitly? If you
Speaker 1: grew up in this country, it's in you and me,
Speaker 1: she says, she goes, I struggle every day with my biases.
Speaker 1: For too many people, law enforcement has lost credibility, and
Speaker 1: until we take a serious self inventory, we can't begin
Speaker 1: to get it back.
Speaker 3: Sing it. I mean, I think that's totally true.
Speaker 1: Roin's because it's like this show has made Olivia Benson
Speaker 1: like very perfect for a really long time. I think
Speaker 1: it's great to give her like this very little bit
Speaker 1: of human fallibility, which is something we all have, and
Speaker 1: we all have implicit biases.
Speaker 3: So now rollin's increase.
Speaker 1: Here an interrogation with Joe Murphy and his lawyer who's
Speaker 1: trying some bullshit now about how his client was lured
Speaker 1: to the park and a kino became sexually aggressive, so
Speaker 1: then why is he the one in the ICU And
Speaker 1: the lawyer goes, sometimes things go wrong when drugs, alcohol
Speaker 1: and misplaced passion or involved Coriese's had enough, he goes,
Speaker 1: you want to try that bullshit, sell that bullshit to
Speaker 1: a jury. You go right ahead, book him attempted murder,
Speaker 1: assault one and criminal sexual act. And the lawyer is like, uh,
Speaker 1: hold up, hold up, Joe would be to consider misdemeanor assault,
Speaker 1: and Carisy's like, a kino has bruising trauma and your
Speaker 1: client's DNA and his underwear, and the lawyer's like, that
Speaker 1: can happen from consensual sex. But just like last week's episode,
Speaker 1: we have a deeply like either biphobic or homophobic person
Speaker 1: with internalized homophobia. Because he's like, even though it's like
Speaker 1: his lawyers are just trying to get him out of this,
Speaker 1: and he's like, oh, consensual, no way, I'm like there's
Speaker 1: no way. He's like, so self hating, you can't even
Speaker 1: have people consider that he wanted this interaction. And he's like,
Speaker 1: the guy forced himself on me. So before the lawyer
Speaker 1: can tell his client to shut the fuck up, they
Speaker 1: arrest him.
Speaker 3: Fred. It's like, yeah, good luck in court.
Speaker 1: We've got that viral video of your cops arresting an
Speaker 1: innocent guy and you don't even have a complaint at
Speaker 1: you're vixen. A coma cuts to Benson getting into an
Speaker 1: suv with Garland and he wants an update on the case.
Speaker 1: She fills him in and then he says it might
Speaker 1: be better if Finn testifies at the grand jury, and
Speaker 1: she says, rather than a white woman, And he's like, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: how did the iab in go? And she talks about
Speaker 1: how she's been stressed out thinking about how she handled it,
Speaker 1: thinking about what she missed, and how she focuses on
Speaker 1: the victims, and that her own biases are a blind
Speaker 1: spot and they do they affect her choices and decisions,
Speaker 1: and Garland says it's a level of community outrage like
Speaker 1: a freight train coming one pp senses it too, and
Speaker 1: I'm worried they're interested in the optics more than actual change,
Speaker 1: and he knows that they're going to sacrifice a few
Speaker 1: scapegoats without hesitation, and that's why he told Finn that
Speaker 1: they should both watch their asses, you know, because a
Speaker 1: lot of times it's like corporations, institutions will just be like,
Speaker 1: we fired this one guy. Problem is solved, and it's
Speaker 1: like just full scapegoats. And so now in court, nurse
Speaker 1: Rudy Sindegard is on the stand testifying that Ericaquino, doctor
Speaker 1: Eric Aquino is a selfless, gentle soul and his head
Speaker 1: wound was so severe that he still hasn't regained consciousness
Speaker 1: and he had anal trauma consistent with sexual assault. Finn
Speaker 1: testifies that the DNA. Now Finn's on the stand, and
Speaker 1: Finn testifies that the DNA was a match to Joe
Speaker 1: Murphy and describes how they found a knot.
Speaker 3: Then a woman in the grand jury goes, I want
Speaker 3: to ask a question. Can I ask a question?
Speaker 1: And Chrisy goes, oh, you can ask me, and then
Speaker 1: I'll ask and the woman goes, I'll just ask it.
Speaker 2: And I have never seen this before. It's like an
Speaker 2: episode of Jerry Springer. This yes, this grand jury is wild.
Speaker 1: I know, like there's I've seen in regular trials where
Speaker 1: it's like the jury has some questions and they asked
Speaker 1: through the foreman or whatever.
Speaker 3: But this is just people raising their damn hands.
Speaker 1: And they're in the courtroom with like these weird random
Speaker 1: partitions of glass for the COVID, and you know, people
Speaker 1: have their masks half on, half off, whatever. And this
Speaker 1: woman goes, I want to know if the victim identified
Speaker 1: his attacker and he didn't, And they said, well, then
Speaker 1: why did you all arrest Javon Brown? At first you
Speaker 1: assumed it was a black man just because he was there.
Speaker 1: And this woman that's asking the question is a black woman.
Speaker 1: And another woman stands up, a blonde woman, a blonde
Speaker 1: white lady, and goes, so why should we believe you now?
Speaker 1: And Careese tries to get them to like rain in
Speaker 1: the questions, but Blondie is just keeps at it.
Speaker 3: She's like, Javon was only arrested because of that.
Speaker 1: Karen and Finn says it was standard police procedure, and
Speaker 1: then Blondie goes she knows all about Finn's life. She goes, oh,
Speaker 1: the same standard procedure you use when you shot that
Speaker 1: boy's father, another black man shot in the projects, so
Speaker 1: she's clearly been following along closely, and Finn is like
Speaker 1: not popping off even though he could. He's not defending.
Speaker 3: I'm selling with his own shit. He is all this guilt.
Speaker 3: He doesn't want to be up again.
Speaker 1: And then suddenly people, three other hands shoot up in
Speaker 1: the room, So now it's like, what is this a
Speaker 1: fucking press conference? Now Finn has to answer all these
Speaker 1: questions from people. So now outside court, Cariese's freaking out.
Speaker 1: He's like, this is a train wreck. I lost control
Speaker 1: of the grand jury. And Finn's like, it wasn't my
Speaker 1: idea to testify, and Crisy's like, oh, so do you
Speaker 1: not agree with how Javon's arrest went. And thing goes,
Speaker 1: I didn't say that, and they're like, well that's what
Speaker 1: the jury heard, he says. He goes, they're looking for
Speaker 1: reasons not to trust the cops right now, and when
Speaker 1: you get in there and testify like you're being held hostage,
Speaker 1: it doesn't help me get an indictment. And then Rollins
Speaker 1: is trying to defend Finn, like, sorry, we didn't have
Speaker 1: this case all wrapped up neat in a bow for you,
Speaker 1: and Carisy goes, no, if Finn would have told me
Speaker 1: that he had second thoughts about how Javon's arrest went down,
Speaker 1: and Finn goes, maybe you should know, after all your
Speaker 1: years as a cop, you never saw black cops stand
Speaker 1: back during a stop and frisk. And Christy goes, what's
Speaker 1: this have to do with me? And Finn goes, I
Speaker 1: don't know. You take the cop out of Satin Island
Speaker 1: and Christy goes, you call me racist, and Rollins has
Speaker 1: to break the shit up. And then Fredo shows up
Speaker 1: at that time, smug saying, you know what, Joe Murphy
Speaker 1: has decided to testify, and they're like, well knows he
Speaker 1: waves his immunity right, I don't know why he would
Speaker 1: have even had immunity, but if he's gonna testify, Fredo goes,
Speaker 1: buckle up, Sonny. So why is the purp walking into
Speaker 1: a grand jury? That's suspicious, that's weird. So now they're
Speaker 1: freaking out. Carisey's like they're rolling the dice that I
Speaker 1: won't get this indictment like shit, Like already things are
Speaker 1: going bad and now I can tell everyone thinks I'm
Speaker 1: gonna lose this. So now we're back from commercial break
Speaker 1: and this little freak is on the stand and he
Speaker 1: admits to lying to the police. He says he met
Speaker 1: a Chino at a bar, they walked into the park together.
Speaker 1: He also said he lied about what happened there. This
Speaker 1: isn't easy for him. They were drunk high, he initiated
Speaker 1: a sexual encounter, which you also lied about, Careesy reminds him,
Speaker 1: and he goes, I was ashamed. I didn't want my
Speaker 1: fiance or my mom to find out that I'm by
Speaker 1: and Careese so subtly, sarcastic goes, I appreciate your bravery
Speaker 1: and coming out here. Come in outing yourself here today,
Speaker 1: But tell us what happened afterwards. Joe's like, nothing happened.
Speaker 1: I zipped up and went home to my fiance. I
Speaker 1: have no clue what happened to Eric after that, and
Speaker 1: he goes, didn't you tell detectives that Eric got aggressive
Speaker 1: and you pushed him off?
Speaker 3: So you lied about that as well.
Speaker 1: And He's like, I was just telling you what you
Speaker 1: wanted to hear, and Carisee goes, it sounds like you're
Speaker 1: admitting what you can't deny and denying what you can't
Speaker 1: admit love that phrase. Great great little, great little ism there, Careesy,
Speaker 1: and he goes, so why should we believe you now?
Speaker 3: And then he drops the bomb.
Speaker 1: He goes, my confession was coerced one of the cops
Speaker 1: to me. They were mad at me for filming Javon's arrest,
Speaker 1: and I was going to take the fall for it.
Speaker 1: So even though Eric Aquino is in a coma, a
Speaker 1: victim of rape and assault, you're the victim here, Careese says,
Speaker 1: and Joe goes, no, we're all victims here, Eric, Javon,
Speaker 1: and me. Careese cuts him off. But some random grand
Speaker 1: jury member is like, excuse me, let the man finish again.
Speaker 1: Didn't know you could just pop in and tell the
Speaker 1: prosecutor to shut up, So again I so. Then Joe continues,
Speaker 1: I'm horrified what happened to Eric, But I did not
Speaker 1: hurt him, and that's why he came in here to testify,
Speaker 1: even though his lawyer advised him not to.
Speaker 3: The cops are lying to you.
Speaker 1: I'm not like he's basically peddling on the national sentiment
Speaker 1: of cop distrust right now to get away with a
Speaker 1: crime that he committed. So that night, Rollins goes to
Speaker 1: Caris's office. The grand jury has been out for a
Speaker 1: few hours and for a grand jury, that's a lifetime
Speaker 1: Caresee says he's pissed.
Speaker 3: He goes to Skylight and.
Speaker 1: He played the jury and the more I want he
Speaker 1: knew exactly what to do. The more I went after Joe,
Speaker 1: the more the jury sympathize with him. They're just also
Speaker 1: mad at the NYPD. They want to punish us, and
Speaker 1: then Fredo shows.
Speaker 2: Up to break them swear it's like, you know, they're
Speaker 2: setting themselves up as the victims as well.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, Fredo shows up to break the news that
Speaker 1: the grand jury did not indict so Joe Murphy walks
Speaker 1: should have.
Speaker 3: Taken the miss d kiddo.
Speaker 1: And then someone has to tell Eric's family what happened
Speaker 1: at the hospital. Eric's mother is furious. How did this happen?
Speaker 1: They explain, he tried to say the police framed him.
Speaker 1: It's a complicated time, Kat explains. The brother gets pissed,
Speaker 1: NYPD fucked this up. If you hadn't arrested Javon, one
Speaker 1: of this would have happened, would it. Kat can't answer them,
Speaker 1: and neither can Rollins. But at the same time, it's
Speaker 1: like your mom herself was like was it the black
Speaker 1: guy in the park? Like everybody has their biases here,
Speaker 1: you know. So at home, Noah is on his phone
Speaker 1: watching a video and it's bedtime and lives like what
Speaker 1: you watch him, babe, And he's like a video of
Speaker 1: you arresting wrong guy. Every kid at school has seen it,
Speaker 1: and she asks if he wants to talk about it.
Speaker 1: He's like, are you racist? And she's like, come on,
Speaker 1: you little bit, you know I'm not racist. And then
Speaker 1: he goes, did you tell the guy that you're sorry?
Speaker 1: And she's like, well, my boss has told me not
Speaker 1: to talk to him, and he goes, well, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense. You always tell me to apologize when I
Speaker 1: do something wrong. So the next scene gorgeous scene, hats
Speaker 1: off to the cinematographer. Seven am in Central Park. Benson
Speaker 1: shows up to where Javon is working out. The light
Speaker 1: is beautiful.
Speaker 3: She thinks.
Speaker 1: He thinks she's like there to pressure him into dropping
Speaker 1: the lawsuit, and she's like, I'm not and he goes, well,
Speaker 1: I bet you heard I got laid off somehow. It
Speaker 1: was in all the papers that I'm in, na, how
Speaker 1: did that get out that's fucked up, and then well
Speaker 1: that could get out. That could have honestly been anybody
Speaker 1: in NA being like, oh that guy in the viral
Speaker 1: video is in my NA, you know, like it could
Speaker 1: be a lot of people do know it is supposed
Speaker 1: to be anonymous, but when something goes viral and people
Speaker 1: are you know, clout chasing, who knows. She apologized and goes,
Speaker 1: I can call you yet the.
Speaker 2: LA meetings are not are not anonymous? People love to
Speaker 2: talk about celebrities in the meetings. Yeah, it's really crazy. Actually, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's bad.
Speaker 1: She apologizes and is like I can call your boss,
Speaker 1: and he's like, stop, you've done enough, and she's like,
Speaker 1: I just want to let you know that the DA
Speaker 1: is pursuing charges against Colleen Reynolds the Karen for filing
Speaker 1: a false report. And he goes, okay, so I lose
Speaker 1: my job. Murphy walks and now you guys just get
Speaker 1: to distract everybody by going after this woman, and Benson goes, listen,
Speaker 1: I know the NYPD has and then she stops herself
Speaker 1: and she goes, I have a lot of work to do,
Speaker 1: and he goes, yeah, you do, and he jogs off
Speaker 1: and leaves Benson standing there looking stunning in the early
Speaker 1: seven am morning at Central Park light and that's Dick Wolf, Baby.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really like they do.
Speaker 1: The cops lose the indictment and this guy gets away
Speaker 1: with it. But they all do have to kind of
Speaker 1: like interrogate their bias, you know, and like figure out
Speaker 1: how they have to go more by the.
Speaker 3: Book, you know.
Speaker 2: Do you feel bad for Noah for a little bit
Speaker 2: at school? Everyone?
Speaker 1: No, I'm like, your mom has saved you from fucking
Speaker 1: kidnappers and done so much shit for you, and like
Speaker 1: there's a video of her making a bad mistake, like
Speaker 1: making up bad choice or whatever.
Speaker 3: But you know, I never feel bad for Noah. Just kidding.
Speaker 1: I don't want him to get bullied when he like
Speaker 1: when he likes to dance. I don't like that part.
Speaker 1: I want that to be good. But take us through
Speaker 1: the crimes, babe.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: So we all obviously know what this is based on
Speaker 2: the Central Park bird watching incident, so I'm gonna save
Speaker 2: that for a second. So this case isn't that connected,
Speaker 2: I guess just because it's like Southeast Asian connection and
Speaker 2: gay connection, but not so much of the case. I
Speaker 2: don't know you guys, you guys be the judge, but
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting enough to just talk about.
Speaker 2: So it's the Rainhard Snaga case. And so Rainhard Snaga
Speaker 2: is a guy that drugged and raped young men in England.
Speaker 3: For twelve years.
Speaker 2: See how it's like, it's not really the same thing,
Speaker 2: and a part of me wasn't going to and then
Speaker 2: it's like whatever, we're all just interested in things anyways,
Speaker 2: So he would. But I also I am wondering why they
Speaker 2: put it into the wiki because is it because they're Asian?
Speaker 3: What's going on here? Is the Asian gay? That's it?
Speaker 3: Like I don't know, but well.
Speaker 1: He was also targeting bisexual men. It could be like
Speaker 1: the whole thing of like being by and trying to
Speaker 1: like hide that you're by or I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, So they just be straight
Speaker 3: up races, although sometimes they like reach for connection.
Speaker 2: Who knows. You'll keep me, you'll keep me on, you'll
Speaker 2: let me know. But I'm glad I read you know.
Speaker 2: It was one article.
Speaker 4: So he.
Speaker 2: Would loure intoxicated young guys to his place before drugging
Speaker 2: them and sexually assaulting them. He was originally from Indonesia
Speaker 2: from like they put in quotations, relatively wealthy family, so
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but they loved church.
Speaker 2: And he was studying for a PhD at the University
Speaker 2: of Leeds and he would commute monthly from Manchester, so
Speaker 2: like he lived. I guess the city is Manchester and
Speaker 2: he is, Yeah, and then so he would like go
Speaker 2: to Leeds. He would approach the men in the early
Speaker 2: hours of the morning outside of nightclubs in Manchester, and
Speaker 2: then once they were at his place, he would lace
Speaker 2: their drink with GHB and then film himself raping them
Speaker 2: while they slept. His victims were unaware they'd been assaulted.
Speaker 1: I mean I could see this guy doing that, the
Speaker 1: guy from the episode.
Speaker 3: He seems terrible. He seems definitely terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like him getting away with this is going to
Speaker 2: cause a lot of crimes in the future because he
Speaker 2: already has like white guy bro vibes, and like now
Speaker 2: he's going to be so emboldened to whatever the fuck
Speaker 2: he wants, and like how he's a hero, He's gonna
Speaker 2: be like a by hero. So like this gets really fucked. Okay,
Speaker 2: I mean it all is fucked, but I'm just giving
Speaker 2: people a heads up so they The attacks came to
Speaker 2: light in twenty seventeen after an eighteen year old victim
Speaker 2: woke up at six am while being assaulted, and the
Speaker 2: victim managed to fight him off and then grabbed Snaga's
Speaker 2: phone before leaving the apartment, so like a genius. And
Speaker 2: then he went to the police, who then discovered three
Speaker 2: point two nine terabytes of graphic material on his phone,
Speaker 2: which is equal to two hundred and fifty DVDs. So
Speaker 2: he was taping all of them.
Speaker 3: I mean, cut to me.
Speaker 1: I have to take my photos off my phone every year.
Speaker 1: I have no space. Most phones have like sixty four
Speaker 1: megs on them. This guy has some kind of wild
Speaker 1: phone that's holding mountains.
Speaker 3: Of assault videos. Jesus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in some cases the assaults lasted for eight hours,
Speaker 2: and and then in some cases the men were like
Speaker 2: vomiting during the rapes, snoring during the rapes.
Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, I'm so glad that this guy
Speaker 1: stole the phone because they might not have even have
Speaker 1: known that he had all these other victims.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he was sentenced to life after being
Speaker 2: found guilty in four separate trials. His defense was that
Speaker 2: the men consented and were pretending to be unconscious to
Speaker 2: fulfill his fantasy, to fulfill his fantasy, so like that
Speaker 2: didn't really hold up in court. He was found guilty
Speaker 2: of one hundred and fifty nine counts of sexual offenses
Speaker 2: against forty eight different men, and they feel like the
Speaker 2: victim count is higher about like men who didn't want
Speaker 2: to come forward like that are in the closet. And
Speaker 2: then he must serve thirty years before he's even considered
Speaker 2: for release, which for the UK is huge. Like I
Speaker 2: feel like they really love to let a sexual predator
Speaker 2: in and out. Ian Rushton, the Northwest Deputy Chief Crown Prosecutor,
Speaker 2: said to CNN to CNN World, his extreme sense of
Speaker 2: sexual entitlement almost defies belief and he would no doubt
Speaker 2: still be adding to his staggering tally had he not
Speaker 2: been caught. So he was like taking drunk jews and
Speaker 2: like being really helpful, and I said, like, oh, you
Speaker 2: could crash with me, like stay with me, you could
Speaker 2: be safe with me, Like it wasn't even all like
Speaker 2: come ons, and then yeah, really like crazy, but he's
Speaker 2: in person, so that is good and good that this
Speaker 2: guy woke up like he would this guy would still
Speaker 2: be at it, Like he would truly still.
Speaker 1: Be at it.
Speaker 2: So obviously this is like so on the Central Park
Speaker 2: bird watching incident. Christian Cooper is a black man and
Speaker 2: he's a burner who is in Central Park and this
Speaker 2: is like May twenty twenty, and so he is a
Speaker 2: Harvard graduate and is on the board of the New
Speaker 2: York City Autuband Society. So these are nerd birds, Okay,
Speaker 2: the nerds. And he's been birding since age ten, so
Speaker 2: he's loved that. He really couldn't stop.
Speaker 3: And so.
Speaker 2: Both his parents are Long Island teachers and they enrolled
Speaker 2: him in a four h program and then he built
Speaker 2: a wooden bird feeder and set it up on his
Speaker 2: lawn and then he became obsessed with all the creatures
Speaker 2: that flocked and that set off this fascination for him.
Speaker 2: And yeah, four decades in counting. Like he's just a
Speaker 2: hot guy who loves birds. He's very cool. And he
Speaker 2: worked as an editor at Marvel Comics and he created
Speaker 2: one of the first gay characters in the Star Trek universe.
Speaker 2: And this is I know, and this is after getting
Speaker 2: a political science degree. Like he's yeah, does lots of
Speaker 2: stuff and so he basically asked a white woman, Amy
Speaker 2: Cooper and no relation obviously, so Chris to leash her dog,
Speaker 2: which is a rule in this part of Central Park.
Speaker 2: I know in the mornings they have like before nine am, unleas.
Speaker 3: Like they have all these things.
Speaker 2: This is a place, the rambles like, it is a
Speaker 2: place and I'll get into it, like this section of
Speaker 2: the park as dogs are required.
Speaker 3: The dogs are required to.
Speaker 2: Be a leashes an all time because I guess it's
Speaker 2: like more woodsy and natury than the other parks or
Speaker 2: something like other areas. Okay, so she refused to leash
Speaker 2: your dog, which is already like so fucked up. So
Speaker 2: he took out his phone and started recording, and that's
Speaker 2: when she called the police and raised her voice and
Speaker 2: started acting all hysterical, so like she went from zero
Speaker 2: to one hundred, and then while dialing, she says on
Speaker 2: the recording, I'm going to tell them there's an African
Speaker 2: American man threatening my life. So this was at eight
Speaker 2: ten in the morning on Monday in May twenty twenty.
Speaker 2: So yeah, this is a semi The New York Times
Speaker 2: described this place as a semi wild place in the park,
Speaker 2: and the dogs are required to be leashed at all times.
Speaker 2: He then got treats out for the dog and hopes
Speaker 2: that she would stop the dog from going to him
Speaker 2: and leash the dog with this, and he did it
Speaker 2: all the time because I guess this happens constantly, and
Speaker 2: this quote is tough.
Speaker 1: I will wait, wait, wait, explain that to me, like
Speaker 1: why would you Why would a dogs stay away from
Speaker 1: you if you have a treat for it.
Speaker 2: He wouldn't The dog would want to run to you.
Speaker 2: So in hopes that the like owners of the dog
Speaker 2: then like get their dog, like hold their dog where
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, you want to fuck around.
Speaker 3: So this was his quote.
Speaker 2: Look, if you're going to do what you want, I'm
Speaker 2: going to do what I want. But you're not going
Speaker 2: to like it. So that's not like a that's like
Speaker 2: a weird way to communicate, I will be honest.
Speaker 1: And he's bringing the treats to like entice the dogs
Speaker 1: to run away from their owners, and.
Speaker 2: And then the owners like grab your dog and then
Speaker 2: leash them. It's kind of just like you want to
Speaker 2: fuck around, we can fuck around, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And so he cares. So this is the thing he
Speaker 2: says he carries the dog treats for this exact reason,
Speaker 2: because like because then she did leash her animal. So
Speaker 2: his thing is like, I mean, I don't get this plan,
Speaker 2: but I've not been a burder for forty years, so
Speaker 2: like I think it's probably how like bicyclists, deestrians, and
Speaker 2: cars don't really get along. Like I think there's a
Speaker 2: long gooing battle between dog owners and burners.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean there's also like for someone that like
Speaker 1: I don't have pets on I never have, but like,
Speaker 1: at least where I live in LA, people are so
Speaker 1: entitled about the dogs. Dogs are not allowed at a
Speaker 1: bunch of rec centers. They just people let their dogs
Speaker 1: run around. They will jump on kids while they're in
Speaker 1: the outfield playing baseball, like and the owners will just
Speaker 1: be like sorry. I mean, my friend at her building
Speaker 1: just got bit her and her dog got attacked by
Speaker 1: a dog, and the owner was like, oh my bad.
Speaker 1: Like It's like a lot of people are just kind
Speaker 1: of like we'll see what happens and then sorry, Like
Speaker 1: there are places I'm not allowed to go in with
Speaker 1: my children. There are ways I have to have my
Speaker 1: children mave like, and I feel like dog people are
Speaker 1: just kind of like now we can do whatever.
Speaker 3: Not all dog people, excuse me, certain dog people.
Speaker 2: No, there's definitely like well trained dogs. And I actually
Speaker 2: just saw a video a girl was like recording her
Speaker 2: own self and a man's dog, like you're saying, like
Speaker 2: ran up to her and then she and then he
Speaker 2: ran the dog ran back, but like she shook her
Speaker 2: head and the guy was just like, are you shaking
Speaker 2: your head?
Speaker 3: Are you shaking your head at me?
Speaker 2: And she took off her headphones and was like what
Speaker 2: and he said it again, and she goes, I'm listening
Speaker 2: to music, but it's like she was shaking her head.
Speaker 2: Do you leash your fucking dog unless it's like the
Speaker 2: designated time.
Speaker 3: Or do you? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I also I do bits about it, like if
Speaker 2: your dog is really well trained and behaved, like that's cool,
Speaker 2: Like I do you know that that is different? But
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people are willing to
Speaker 2: admit when their kid or dog is badly.
Speaker 3: Behaved and that it's a reflection of them.
Speaker 2: But I was just with people on the street and
Speaker 2: like a guy was trying to show off that his
Speaker 2: dog wasn't unleashed, but like he's on second half, and
Speaker 2: it's like, what are you trying to prove? Like it's busy,
Speaker 2: cars are whizzing by, like leash your fucking dog, like
Speaker 2: for his safety? What if a squirrel runs? Like I
Speaker 2: don't know, I just yeah whatever. So this is just
Speaker 2: his always plan is like to have these treats to
Speaker 2: be like, you're not gonna like it if you want
Speaker 2: to fuck around, and then they end up getting their dog.
Speaker 2: So but that is a weird way to word it
Speaker 2: because she uses that against him later. So okay, so
Speaker 2: then she calls nine one one. She claims he was
Speaker 2: threatening her and the dog, and then she did finally
Speaker 2: leash the dog and then you hear him say thank
Speaker 2: you and the video ends. He just wanted her to
Speaker 2: follow the rules and he is in charge of the
Speaker 2: Uh what is it? Abadan Audoban I've never heard. I
Speaker 2: never heard that word in my fucking life.
Speaker 1: So the Audubon Society they have like coffee table books
Speaker 1: and stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I there's some comedians who are birders. Ashley Hamilton,
Speaker 2: part of Good Noticing Spot is loves a bird. Joe
Speaker 2: Zimmerman's a birder. I'm trying to think who else goes
Speaker 2: in bird woman's a birder.
Speaker 3: Interesting. Yeah, yea, the birders are out and about we're
Speaker 3: hitting an age.
Speaker 1: So I mean he now with these and now with
Speaker 1: the what's it called the bird the bird cam thing
Speaker 1: that everybody has, Like now there's like these feeders that
Speaker 1: are like everybody has them now where like you can
Speaker 1: just look at the feed of like your bird feeder.
Speaker 3: That is cool, bird buddy or something like that.
Speaker 2: Go on, So ends the video. This quote comes out
Speaker 2: of nowhere. There's I don't know why I wrote. It's
Speaker 2: a good quote, but he basically in the Times is like,
Speaker 2: I'm pretty adamant about not being a participant in my
Speaker 2: own dehumanization.
Speaker 3: And I liked that.
Speaker 2: Just like in the aftermath and everything that happened, the
Speaker 2: cops came, no summons were issued, there was no arrests made,
Speaker 2: like nothing happened. But the video was posted onto Twitter
Speaker 2: on Memorial Day by Cooper's sister and immediately got tens
Speaker 2: of millions of views. I think Cooper obviously the man,
Speaker 2: the man. Okay, he's the one that taped it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so his sister posts videotape I forgot, yeah, yeah, she
Speaker 2: like called the police and was a white woman claiming
Speaker 2: that she felt it like it's just yeah. So then
Speaker 2: within twenty four hours, Amy had to give up her
Speaker 2: dog because then people like searched her Instagram and saw
Speaker 2: that she wasn't like treating the dog well, and so
Speaker 2: she gave it back to like the society that she
Speaker 2: like adopted him from. She publicly apologized and then was
Speaker 2: fired from her job. So that's within twenty four hours
Speaker 2: of this video. And obviously everyone called her central part Karen,
Speaker 2: and it was just like this was I have such
Speaker 2: vivid memories of this. So our dude was actually really
Speaker 2: taken aback by the retribution and is even quoted in
Speaker 2: the time saying it's a little bit of a frenzy.
Speaker 2: And I am uncomfortable with that. If our goal is
Speaker 2: to change the underlying factors, I am not sure that
Speaker 2: this young woman having her life completely torn apart serves
Speaker 2: that goal. I mean, he's like a genius, he goes,
Speaker 2: I'm not excusing the racism, but I don't know if
Speaker 2: her life needed to be torn apart, and more quotes
Speaker 2: from him, I don't know if it was a conscious
Speaker 2: thing or not. But she did it, and she went there.
Speaker 2: She thought she could be Marshall to her advantage. Does
Speaker 2: that even make sense? She thought she could.
Speaker 3: Marshal to her advantage? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, is that
Speaker 3: what I said? Whatever you got? Yeah, and it didn't work.
Speaker 2: I like she obviously it's like hoisted by your own petard.
Speaker 2: It's like you're using your own privilege that you know
Speaker 2: you fucking have. There's a reason she said African American twice.
Speaker 3: And I did you so mad that someone just asked
Speaker 3: you to follow the rules? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And that it was And if it had been like
Speaker 1: another white woman, I wonder if she would just have
Speaker 1: been like, yeah, well and then moved on. But because
Speaker 1: it was like this black man deigned to tell her
Speaker 1: that she has to do something.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's like definitely her biases.
Speaker 2: Like I doubt she knew he was the president of
Speaker 2: the Bird Society, you know what I mean, like and
Speaker 2: went to Harvard and all these things, and like those
Speaker 2: things shouldn't matter. You're allowed to be like an uneducated
Speaker 2: idiot and still be treated with respect in the world
Speaker 2: and not be like people be scared of you.
Speaker 3: But she probably.
Speaker 2: Didn't think that he was like a fucking genius, beloved, cool,
Speaker 2: creative guy. You know what, I mean, yeah, who's still
Speaker 2: at her side? So then Professor Catherine Russell Brett not
Speaker 2: her side, but like he was, he's and I'll talk
Speaker 2: about this later, but he didn't particip Payton any of
Speaker 2: the police stuff, Like he was not interested in taking
Speaker 2: this further. Like he truly just wanted the leash on
Speaker 2: the dog. Yeah, that's all he cared about, right. Professor
Speaker 2: Catherine Russell Brown is the director of the Center for
Speaker 2: the Study of Race and Race Relations at the University
Speaker 2: of Florida's Levin College of Law. Like the longest intro
Speaker 2: of a person ever on this podcast, and she's quoted
Speaker 2: by the time saying it was particularly a punch in
Speaker 2: the gut for a lot of people. It ties into
Speaker 2: and taps into a long history of white women, in
Speaker 2: particular falsely accusing black men of crimes that leads to
Speaker 2: great harm. And like she knew what she was doing,
Speaker 2: she knew what she was fucking doing. Like and this
Speaker 2: was at the height of the George Floyd case, and
Speaker 2: so it is like, you know, you and Breonna Taylor,
Speaker 2: like you know the threat Like maybe before that time,
Speaker 2: even before twenty twenty, like maybe you didn't know that,
Speaker 2: Like what a threat police were I mean with Trayvon
Speaker 2: Martin so long ago, but like there is no excuse,
Speaker 2: like you like, we all know the threat to black
Speaker 2: people calling polices, and she knew that and she was
Speaker 2: willing him to die for this bullshit. She was willing
Speaker 2: to risk his life to prove a point and not
Speaker 2: leash her dog, you know what I mean, like and
Speaker 2: used it as a threat. It was weaponized. Okay, this
Speaker 2: is all because later she's like, she is a dumb bitch.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So and he was back looking at the birds two
Speaker 2: days later, like when's this epen?
Speaker 3: On a Monday? He was back at the birds Wednesday.
Speaker 2: He was focusing on the olive sided flycatchers and red
Speaker 2: bellied woodpeckers. She was then charged like they did in
Speaker 2: the episode, for like attention. So she was charged with
Speaker 2: wrongfully calling the police, and that never went anywhere, and
Speaker 2: Chris had zero involvement with the DA's case against her
Speaker 2: The New York Times again, mister Cooper says bringing her
Speaker 2: more misery just seems like piling on, and he did
Speaker 2: not want to be involved.
Speaker 3: In the case.
Speaker 2: And it's also like a really hard charge to convict
Speaker 2: because authorities don't want to discourage the public for reporting crimes.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean, Like if you're constantly I
Speaker 2: mean they do. If it's rape, they will arrest you.
Speaker 2: And there's a whole documentary, mate, But they they don't
Speaker 2: want to like straight out like discourage. So the charges
Speaker 2: were dismissed in February twenty twenty one, after she completed
Speaker 2: a therapeutic program that included an instruction about racial biases.
Speaker 2: She was eventually reunited with her dog as well from
Speaker 2: the rescue group that took the dog away. Then, of course,
Speaker 2: May twenty twenty one, she sues her former employer for
Speaker 2: firing her because she was a victim of racial discrimination.
Speaker 2: She says they didn't investigate it thoroughly because of her
Speaker 2: race and gender and that and reached a decision to
Speaker 2: terminate her because she is a white woman. She then
Speaker 2: in November, oh, Pudding, I'm so sorry for your your trauma.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So November seven, twenty three, she wrote an essay for
Speaker 2: news Week and it ain't and the New York Post
Speaker 2: picked it up, and yeah who news and so oh yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah who they picked it up, and basically it's just
Speaker 2: like really okay, So she blames him for the treats
Speaker 2: and yelling at her, and that she is a victim
Speaker 2: of sexual assault and was a lone woman in the
Speaker 2: park and she was scared. But it's like your fear,
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like again, are you weaponizing something else?
Speaker 2: Or him saying I'm going to do something you don't
Speaker 2: like is weirdly worded, like I if, I don't know.
Speaker 2: There's just so much other context in other things she writes,
Speaker 2: where it's like I just don't believe you in any way,
Speaker 2: And you didn't sound scared. Your voice went from calm
Speaker 2: to shrieking in an instant to to do this report
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, So she said she was scared,
Speaker 2: but you know, I do want to believe victims, but
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: This is like a tough moment.
Speaker 2: So I mean, all of this is fair, but again,
Speaker 2: call like saying African American twice, you know, she says,
Speaker 2: she repeated saying African American because of the show body
Speaker 2: service in the park. Again another excuse, like this is
Speaker 2: the thing like are you sorry? Did you take your
Speaker 2: racial biases class? And are you dealing with this or not?
Speaker 2: And it's it's obvious not, she says, she She then
Speaker 2: he says that he admitted to instigating the incident by
Speaker 2: saying he always carries dog treats to lore leashless dogs.
Speaker 2: She used that to say she wasn't the only person
Speaker 2: he threatened in Central Park. But it's like, follow the
Speaker 2: fucking rules. He is the president of the bird Society.
Speaker 2: I don't know what to tell you. He knows what
Speaker 2: he's doing. So she then complains that he refused to
Speaker 2: talk to her after when she tried to connect with him,
Speaker 2: and he said that he goes She's tried to connect
Speaker 2: with me, I have no interest in talking to her,
Speaker 2: Like he doesn't care about her. He only cares what
Speaker 2: birds okay, Like I don't know. Like that's another thing.
Speaker 2: It's like she feels owed to his time, his education,
Speaker 2: his everything. Like so she's like, he refused to talk
Speaker 2: to me. I've tried to connect with him, and you know,
Speaker 2: She's like, I was open to an honest and productive
Speaker 2: conversations to which he is not interested in in the slightest.
Speaker 2: And it's like, why does he owe you anything? You
Speaker 2: called the cops on him. He wants nothing to do
Speaker 2: with you. He thinks you're an idiot. He thinks you're
Speaker 2: a loser and an idiot and still went out of
Speaker 2: his way to defend you in the New York Times. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but nothing was no summons, nothing was written, like nothing happened,
Speaker 2: like no one cared. Because this reminds me there's another girl.
Speaker 2: She was a black woman and like a white woman
Speaker 2: called the cops on her for shooting golf balls in
Speaker 2: the park. I don't know if you've seen this. And
Speaker 2: then when the cops come, they're not golf balls, they're
Speaker 2: obviously squishy balls.
Speaker 3: She goes, yeah, I would never do that. They're squishy balls.
Speaker 2: And so they arrested the white woman for calling the
Speaker 2: cops for no fucking reason, like you know, but she was.
Speaker 3: Like, we're wasting the cops time.
Speaker 2: It's just dangerous, Like she knew she was doing nothing wrong,
Speaker 2: but it's like you are putting these people in danger
Speaker 2: knowingly with your power and privilege. And that is why
Speaker 2: black people can't trust white people. I mean, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's like the white women that
Speaker 2: voted for Trump, like you could feel as good as
Speaker 2: you want, but our proximity to like power because of
Speaker 2: our whiteness is just like too powerful, and white women
Speaker 2: choose whiteness over black people all the time, all the
Speaker 2: fucking time. It's like crazy, But like then to after
Speaker 2: all of this, think that he needed to have an
Speaker 2: honest and productive for who what kind of convo? Like
Speaker 2: you aren't even taking responsibility, yes, but you wrote She
Speaker 2: could have written a thing of like how bad if
Speaker 2: you're going by weaponizing my whiteness, by putting a black
Speaker 2: man in danger, by understanding what police and like police
Speaker 2: brutality means, and all of these things, But instead she
Speaker 2: writ this is her one piece three years later, and
Speaker 2: she is the victim of it and trying to shit
Speaker 2: on him for luring and fighting with dogs and like
Speaker 2: wanting a convo, and he's a dickhead for not giving
Speaker 2: me more time. And that's why I like that the
Speaker 2: dude didn't want to talk to Benson. At the end
Speaker 2: of the episode where it's like you're not owed this,
Speaker 2: You're not owed black people's time, she says she was
Speaker 2: traumatized and terrified, and he is a constant threatener of
Speaker 2: dog owners.
Speaker 3: She then that are not following the rules.
Speaker 2: She then says there's but I do love a service
Speaker 2: dog at an airport misbehaving like that that is one
Speaker 2: of my favorite things, where I'm like, this clearly isn't
Speaker 2: a work, like a dog that's working, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. She then says there's no such thing as
Speaker 2: a Karen. We're all just people, each of us deserving
Speaker 2: of forgiveness and grace, and that she feels like she
Speaker 2: was silenced.
Speaker 1: Like tell me you've learned nothing without telling me you've
Speaker 1: learned nothing.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she moved back to Canada where she's from,
Speaker 2: and yeah, still hasn't really learned anything. She thinks she's
Speaker 2: a victim. But I also like understand. It's kind of
Speaker 2: when I talk to Andrew Schultzer, I was like, I
Speaker 2: understand as a human being, like when people are like
Speaker 2: you can feel a certain way, like Amy could feel like, fuck,
Speaker 2: I lost my job, everyone hates me, I'm getting death threats.
Speaker 2: I'm the Karen of the universe, Like you can feel
Speaker 2: that as a human, Like I understand, we are all humans,
Speaker 2: and like consequences of anything can be hard as an individual,
Speaker 2: Like you're allowed to have these layered feelings, but then
Speaker 2: you have to work through them, Like you have to
Speaker 2: get through them, you have to realize that you're not
Speaker 2: the true victim of something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like you can get fired for tweeting something and that's
Speaker 2: not how you feel, and then you talk about and
Speaker 2: learn about it and figure it out and then hopefully
Speaker 2: move through Like I don't know, you can't, just like
Speaker 2: we're all just people and I'm not a Karen and
Speaker 2: Ada da. When you feel like you don't, you don't
Speaker 2: realize the weight of your actions. Chris ended up getting
Speaker 2: his own TV show on the National Geographic Channel and
Speaker 2: hosted a bird show.
Speaker 3: So he's like amazing, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wow, the most amazing way that this could have ended.
Speaker 3: And I hope I see him in New York one day. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, sure he's trolling people with the dog treats,
Speaker 1: but it's like your dog won't come to him, it's
Speaker 1: off leash.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, yeah, he doesn't just always have it.
Speaker 2: It's like he's not bullying the dogs, he's bullying you
Speaker 2: because you're a bad owner. Well let's see if the
Speaker 2: show is still on the their.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: I would still go there's no end there's no end date,
Speaker 2: but there's only six episodes total, so maybe it was
Speaker 2: like a limited series.
Speaker 3: He is so cute. Yeah, and he's won an Emmy.
Speaker 3: He won an Emmy for this or for the Marvel
Speaker 3: or Star Truck.
Speaker 1: His his I just saw his Instagram, it says, Emmy
Speaker 1: winning host of Extraordinary Birder. Yes, he won an Emmy
Speaker 1: and author of the New York Times best selling the
Speaker 1: More Better Living Through Birding And then he has a
Speaker 1: go fund me up for kids in the Bronx to
Speaker 1: explore birdwatching.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I like this guy. I think he's
Speaker 3: the best.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like her trying to turn us against him, like
Speaker 2: he's this bully of dogs in the park when like
Speaker 2: all he cares about is birds. Yeah, Like his TV
Speaker 2: show is Birds Notes for a Black Man. And I
Speaker 2: wonder Better Living through Birding? I wonder what it's about.
Speaker 1: And it's like you, I understand, like people that are
Speaker 1: victims of sexual violence obviously can have, like you know,
Speaker 1: a hair trigger response to feeling threatened or something. But
Speaker 1: why did you feel that this man who was in
Speaker 1: the park with a pair of binoculars looking at birds,
Speaker 1: like because of the color of his skin.
Speaker 3: Is why you thought he might attack you or her?
Speaker 3: You like that is why? Yeah, am I gonna read.
Speaker 2: I'm I've put myself on a break and I am
Speaker 2: not buying any other books until I've read at least
Speaker 2: five or six in my collection.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, and then you hold me to it. You
Speaker 1: can read better Living through Birding right after that, then.
Speaker 2: I will be buying this. Then I will be then
Speaker 2: I will be watching it. But yeah, I can't believe
Speaker 2: you want an Emmy. He got a TV show, got
Speaker 2: this book like helping children, like still on his shit.
Speaker 3: And what she doesn't get is like he could have
Speaker 3: helped the das.
Speaker 2: He could have gotten involved, he could have been a witness,
Speaker 2: He could have brought her to court, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. He could have done a lot of stuff
Speaker 2: he didn't want to. He even is quoted saying everyone
Speaker 2: leave her alone, Like I don't think we should pile
Speaker 2: on her. Like how do you still years later write
Speaker 2: that Newsweek thing?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Crazy, Well, I'm glad that we could do a crime
Speaker 1: once in a while. That has sort of an uplifting
Speaker 1: end to it, which is that the Karen had to
Speaker 1: go back to Canada and the man got a.
Speaker 2: TV show And now a word from our sponsors, JK,
Speaker 2: I don't know guess.
Speaker 1: No guests, We've got a guest. We've got a guest,
Speaker 1: So don't go anywhere, okay. Our guest today is an
Speaker 1: award winning cabaret singer and has performed in musical productions
Speaker 1: with the likes of Audre McDonald, Patty Lapone and Edie Falco.
Speaker 1: He is maybe best known for his role with Edie
Speaker 1: Falco as Thor Lundgren on Nurse Jackie, but we know
Speaker 1: him today as sane Nurse Rudy Cindergard. Please enjoy our
Speaker 1: chat with the darling Stephen Wallam.
Speaker 3: So you're drawn to the suburban life, now we are.
Speaker 3: The short version of the story is my We lived
Speaker 3: in the city. My husband and I lived in Manhattan,
Speaker 3: and then he got a job as the artistic director
Speaker 3: of a theater in Kalamazoo, Michigan, which is where he's from.
Speaker 3: And this was right before a year before COVID. Then
Speaker 3: COVID hit and I was lucky enough to actually be
Speaker 3: with my best friend Kara and her family in Los
Speaker 3: Angeles for the first six months of COVID. So we
Speaker 3: had we lost our place in New York. Of course,
Speaker 3: you know my industry, our industry dried up. There was
Speaker 3: nothing I ended up moving to Kalamazoo with him for
Speaker 3: about three years until work started picking up for me.
Speaker 3: Then we were ready to leave there, and our incredibly
Speaker 3: generous dear friend Dye Falco said, I just bought a house.
Speaker 3: There's a guest house. Do you guys wanna you know,
Speaker 3: come then here. So unbelievably we had this beautiful guest
Speaker 3: house to stay in. It was supposed to be a
Speaker 3: short term. It turned into longer. No complaints, of course,
Speaker 3: And we didn't know Westchester County at all, not at all,
Speaker 3: and but we found in love with it, and we
Speaker 3: do like the vibe of I mean there's stuff about
Speaker 3: the city ms of course, but we're closing up. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all on the train into the city so I can
Speaker 3: get in. But yeah, I grew up in the suburban life,
Speaker 3: so it was weird to be, you know, live in
Speaker 3: downtown Chicago and then New York and then suddenly kind
Speaker 3: of go back to the suburban life. But it's great
Speaker 3: because the East Coast is so different, you know, it's
Speaker 3: a very different vibe than the Midwest. So so I
Speaker 3: love it. So that's how we ended up there. I
Speaker 3: love that it was eighty falco cool.
Speaker 1: I mean, the people's princess. Like if anybody ever tells
Speaker 1: me something about about her, am and I'd be like,
Speaker 1: this is I can't I can't hear it well.
Speaker 3: Because it's not true for one thing, you know, and listen.
Speaker 3: She was my very first experience on television, not from
Speaker 3: lack of trying Wistner's Jackie. And I was forty and
Speaker 3: so I had been doing theater. I'd been in the
Speaker 3: business a long time, but my first experience on a
Speaker 3: TV show was that show with her at the Helm.
Speaker 3: And she is the textbook example of number one on
Speaker 3: a call sheet because she is such a pro and
Speaker 3: she's so gracious, and I learned so much and it
Speaker 3: makes every you know, a lot of other sets pale
Speaker 3: in comparison, or at least I'll say, well, it doesn't
Speaker 3: have to be that way, you know, when you see
Speaker 3: any sort of attitude or no, no, no, when you're
Speaker 3: when you're when you're a true pro and you're a
Speaker 3: true star, you don't have to treat anybody unkindly. You
Speaker 3: just don't reason to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And then
Speaker 3: that that led into she's become one of my best friends.
Speaker 3: And obviously she was so gracious to us, and we're
Speaker 3: still now we're just ten minutes away from where we
Speaker 3: lived before, so we're still able to see her, and
Speaker 3: our dogs are still able to see each other, and
Speaker 3: all the dogs got connected. Love that.
Speaker 1: I mean, we obviously are the Nurse Jackie fans, so we.
Speaker 3: Oh good, Oh I didn't know. I did not know.
Speaker 2: I actually watched it before Sopranos. Nurse Jackie was like
Speaker 2: my infro to Edie, and I'm the same.
Speaker 1: I've never really watched full Sopranos. I'm only halfway you guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had just the show and then got it.
Speaker 3: She loved the fact that I said. I told her,
Speaker 3: I said, I've actually never seen the Sopranos and just said, oh,
Speaker 3: bless you. Yeah, because she got so she still gets tired.
Speaker 3: She understands it's an iconic role and an iconic show.
Speaker 3: But you know, when people just know her from that
Speaker 3: and that's all they want to talk about. She's so
Speaker 3: happy to meet people that don't know her as Carmelos soprano,
Speaker 3: then you know. And that was me. So I was
Speaker 3: able to learn I had no frame of reference, which
Speaker 3: is great. The whole cast what a good show.
Speaker 1: Well, so how did, like, because I'm so interested in
Speaker 1: how like you were this I can't.
Speaker 3: First of all, I think that's so crazy.
Speaker 1: This is your first television role is in Nurse Jackie,
Speaker 1: because you seem like a veteran television actor when I'm
Speaker 1: watching Nurse Jackie, Like seriously, I thought you and Merrett
Speaker 1: Weaver and everybody on that show just seemed like they've
Speaker 1: been acting for since they were one year old, like
Speaker 1: you know, just everybody. I mean, you had been acting.
Speaker 1: But like, television acting is different than theater acting.
Speaker 3: I learned trial by Fire. I really did, because I
Speaker 3: really didn't have anybody sit me down beforehand and say, Okay,
Speaker 3: this is what to expect, this is what it's going
Speaker 3: to be like. And in a way, I'm kind of
Speaker 3: grateful because it really forced me to stay on my
Speaker 3: toes because there was no time for me to learn,
Speaker 3: so to speak. There was no time for somebody to
Speaker 3: sit back and go, okay, so you know this is
Speaker 3: what's going to happen. No, you are shoved in, go yeah,
Speaker 3: and you either sink or swim. So it's kind of
Speaker 3: it and I found that I loved it, so that
Speaker 3: that helps you because it is such a completely different
Speaker 3: muscle than being in theater, and quite frankly, I love
Speaker 3: it because it's a it's a little less work that
Speaker 3: I'm being honest. You know on stage you've both been
Speaker 3: on stage, right, I'm guessing, yeah, so you know you've
Speaker 3: got to put that extra something out there, and then
Speaker 3: when you're behind the camera, you're like, oh, I can
Speaker 3: I don't have to work so hard? And I kind
Speaker 3: of love that the older I got and still do,
Speaker 3: I don't you know, can I do this with a
Speaker 3: little less effort and great and get paid for it?
Speaker 2: But what's hard is like the sustaining of energy. I
Speaker 2: feel like if you're on set all day but they're
Speaker 2: not using you because you're not that important.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: Then you do have to wake up, Yeah you gotta
Speaker 2: snap into it, but you've just been eating like hot
Speaker 2: food snacks all day.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5: And that's why I again, I have no patience for
Speaker 5: back to you know, sort of attitudes on set when
Speaker 5: I hear about actress complaining because they've been waiting all day,
Speaker 5: and I just want to say, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: Yeah you've been You get freak mood at all times.
Speaker 3: You're probably on a very comfortable sofa, right now you
Speaker 3: get to watch movies on the you know there's free internet.
Speaker 3: Please don't This is part of the deal. So yeah,
Speaker 3: you're gonna wait a lot, but don't complain about it,
Speaker 3: you know, for the most part.
Speaker 2: But you know, we have something in common. I was
Speaker 2: in Horace and Pete too, you were. Yeah, I was
Speaker 2: one of the girls at the bar, so we're both
Speaker 2: in the first episode. And then he kept bringing me back,
Speaker 2: so I got to watch your best friend Edi act
Speaker 2: a lot. And then I also saw her in like clogs,
Speaker 2: and then I was I was like, I'm gonna wear
Speaker 2: clogs now too, you know, like I like the way
Speaker 2: she looked in the clogs.
Speaker 3: I was just in that first scene. So were you
Speaker 3: at bar in that scene?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm at the bar with Nick Depolo, And it
Speaker 2: was like, I think it was my first gig because
Speaker 2: our scripted. And then I couldn't believe it because Alan
Speaker 2: Alda's there and Jessica Lang.
Speaker 3: Oh, It's like really insane, wasn't that? And then did
Speaker 3: you end up watching the whole thing?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's really what Laurie Metcalf and the Karen
Speaker 2: Pittman episode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm obsessed. I mean it's such a It was
Speaker 3: such a special thing. It was such a throwback to
Speaker 3: something they would have created in the fifties and sixties,
Speaker 3: like a playhouse ninety or some you know, it was
Speaker 3: so unusual, and I just thought it was kind of remarkable,
Speaker 3: you know, and and weird because you know, well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but I had the lessons that you kind
Speaker 2: of had on Nurse Jackie, where I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: everyone here is like working for sag minimum. Jessica Lang
Speaker 2: is napping on a couch. Everyone's chill. So I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: so people are chill like, and so when people are misbehaving,
Speaker 2: I go, well, Steve Buscemi wasn't like it is.
Speaker 3: It was a really cool experience to see people dressing rooms.
Speaker 3: You know, we were sitting in folding chairs and we
Speaker 3: weren't we were paid scale. And yeah, now that you
Speaker 3: mentioned it, I just have to say. That's when I
Speaker 3: got the script and I knew what the role was,
Speaker 3: but I hadn't read the script. And then it said
Speaker 3: and then I forget what her character's name was. I
Speaker 3: think it was Margaret Margaret walks in in parentheses Jessica Lang,
Speaker 3: and I lost my mind. She was one of my
Speaker 3: top three actresses that I were the actor or actress?
Speaker 3: Who am my kidding? So when I saw that I
Speaker 3: was going to be in a scene with her in
Speaker 3: any capacity, I lost my mind. And I still can't
Speaker 3: believe it. I still can't believe it. And then Alan,
Speaker 3: then I'm talking to Alan all the you know, I
Speaker 3: will never ever, I don't care how old I get.
Speaker 3: Those are moments that I will never take for granted
Speaker 3: or I will that excitement of you know, ten year
Speaker 3: old me who dreamed of doing this my entire life.
Speaker 3: And I'm sitting across the table from Jessica Lang doing
Speaker 3: a table read and then she she just she's looking
Speaker 3: at me just like that. You know, I look up
Speaker 3: and she's just she's just like anybody, looking like what
Speaker 3: is going on? You know? It was amazing and I
Speaker 3: never want to lose that. And you know, I think
Speaker 3: in that case, and even on Nurse JACKI too talking
Speaker 3: about how there if you see that entire cast, we
Speaker 3: all came from the theater originally, and I think that
Speaker 3: makes a huge difference. I think it does. And I
Speaker 3: think these young kids that often want to go right
Speaker 3: from school into TV and film and even say, I mean,
Speaker 3: I remember once on set there was a young guest
Speaker 3: guest actor who was I think still in college, and
Speaker 3: I basically heard them say, well, yeah, I don't I
Speaker 3: don't want to waste my time with theater. I want
Speaker 3: to go right to it. And I just want to say, oh, dude,
Speaker 3: you're actually you're you are depriving yourself the experience that's
Speaker 3: going to help you in film and TV because, uh,
Speaker 3: casting directors love theater people. I was told that when
Speaker 3: they saw my resume, like, oh, we love seeing theater
Speaker 3: credits because there's a different work ethic that's taught in
Speaker 3: the theater that you know, you know.
Speaker 1: I want to know how this like SVU Park came
Speaker 1: about for you, because like, to me, it feels like
Speaker 1: an easter egg, almost like they know that the people that.
Speaker 3: Watch Nurse Jackie watch USVU.
Speaker 1: I just feel like the man diagram of that show
Speaker 1: is a whole and so like I was like, when
Speaker 1: I saw you first on your first episode season twenty one,
Speaker 1: I was like, freak No.
Speaker 3: I was almost like, is this the same hospital? Is
Speaker 3: this supposed to be the hop where Jackie works?
Speaker 1: Like I would, But then of course you're playing a
Speaker 1: totally different character.
Speaker 3: I don't know you're have you like? Well, I want
Speaker 3: let's start. How did it like? How did the SVU
Speaker 3: park come about? Well, this was an every actor's dream.
Speaker 3: It was just playing Offer to Love. And it's because
Speaker 3: of Deer Dear one of my heroes, Warren Light, who
Speaker 3: was showrunner at the time that I was there, and
Speaker 3: who started out as a playwright and very good friend
Speaker 3: of Edie's by the way, because he looked Man, which
Speaker 3: was kind of the play that put Edie on the
Speaker 3: map as far as in the theater. So it's you know,
Speaker 3: everybody's connected. But I didn't meet Warren through Eightie. I
Speaker 3: met him. He had written a pilot another medical show
Speaker 3: before he was on SVU. I think, I don't think
Speaker 3: it was the same time, but and I was brought
Speaker 3: in for the pilot and it was another hospital show,
Speaker 3: but I think it was for a doctor this time.
Speaker 3: I don't really remember. He wanted to cast me in.
Speaker 3: The director did not, so I didn't get the pilot.
Speaker 3: And that's okay, it happens. But I would talk to
Speaker 3: him or see him a bit, and he would always
Speaker 3: be apologizing that he felt so bad that I wasn't
Speaker 3: cast in that pilot. I'm like, oh, Warren, it happens
Speaker 3: all the time, I get it. But he felt so bad.
Speaker 3: He felt so bad. So then this role comes along
Speaker 3: for this sane nurse which I had not seen the
Speaker 3: term before, a sexual assault nurse examiner. And it don't
Speaker 3: I think it was written as male. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 3: it was. And it came up and Warren told me, well,
Speaker 3: this came up, and I said, why are we seeing people?
Speaker 3: Let's offer it to Stephen Wallam. And you know that
Speaker 3: almost never happens unless you're you know, Julia Roberts or
Speaker 3: so I couldn't have been happier. It was just plain
Speaker 3: offered here and then, needless to say, so surreal to
Speaker 3: be back in Blue Scrubs again. And I was confused
Speaker 3: too because and so were the viewers at first, because
Speaker 3: I don't think my character name, No, it wasn't my
Speaker 3: first episode. Nobody ever said my name, so I had
Speaker 3: plenty of people think, oh, well that's where Thor went
Speaker 3: work now after yeah, after all Saints closed? And who
Speaker 3: was I to say, you know, well maybe not, maybe
Speaker 3: that's a little less confusing. So I know it was.
Speaker 3: It was strange. So I still to this day, you know,
Speaker 3: and Warren is one of the good ones. He is
Speaker 3: one of the good ones in this business in every
Speaker 3: possible way, and I'm grateful to him for so many reasons.
Speaker 3: So that's how that all started.
Speaker 2: Well, because people also really love him, especially during post
Speaker 2: COVID era, and probably you were a part of there.
Speaker 2: But like so he got theater people work and they
Speaker 2: were back working, probably the quick take of any production,
Speaker 2: and it's ye, he seems great.
Speaker 3: How were the COVID years of Well, it's interesting because
Speaker 3: the episode that you picked that we're talking about is
Speaker 3: my first episode back during lockdown. So I will especially Remae,
Speaker 3: even though you know my scene is brief. I just
Speaker 3: have one scene, but I will of course never forget
Speaker 3: it because it was my first time back and it
Speaker 3: was the strangest, most surreal day of my life to
Speaker 3: come back because I had already done a few episodes before.
Speaker 1: I think like, yeah, you had done like three in
Speaker 1: season twenty one, and this is the opener of season
Speaker 1: twenty two.
Speaker 3: This is right, and so we're all back, and it
Speaker 3: definitely I do remember that SBU was, if not the first,
Speaker 3: one of the very first that was back in production.
Speaker 3: So to walk back onto a set that everybody's in masks,
Speaker 3: nobody's getting close. When we started to even rehearsing, and
Speaker 3: you know, my thank God for Kelly and Jamie who
Speaker 3: were in the scene with me, because I was so thrown.
Speaker 3: Everything was so bizarre that I started speaking and it's
Speaker 3: like I forgot how to act. It was all the
Speaker 3: logistics around me were so strange that I couldn't just, oh,
Speaker 3: do my thing. You know, I had like three lines.
Speaker 3: It was no big deal. I should have in other circumstances.
Speaker 3: I would have been able to just rattle it off
Speaker 3: and then we're done. But everything was so strange and
Speaker 3: I couldn't even remember the lines and they weren't difficult,
Speaker 3: and you know, we'd cut and or just you know,
Speaker 3: even after rehearsal, and Jamie and Kelly were so great
Speaker 3: about saying because they they said they had already been
Speaker 3: working for a few days or the week before or something,
Speaker 3: but they said, we, you know, don't sweat it. We
Speaker 3: feel exactly the same way. We are so thrown. It
Speaker 3: literally felt like I don't remember how to act in
Speaker 3: front of a camera now. It's so that was weird.
Speaker 3: And the fact that you know, when I talk about
Speaker 3: my first pre COVID experiences on SVU. You know that
Speaker 3: that craft services and lunch. I'm sorry, that was a
Speaker 3: Vegas buffet every time. I had never seen such an
Speaker 3: incredible layout. And I'm talking it was one time for
Speaker 3: lunch there. I'm not kidding you. There was like a
Speaker 3: waffle bar. There was you know it was. It was
Speaker 3: out of the love Boat buffet. You guys aren't old
Speaker 3: enough to remember love Boat, but you know, I just unbelievable.
Speaker 3: So to go from that to what do you want
Speaker 3: for lunch? We're going to bring it to you. A
Speaker 3: PA is going to bring it to you in a
Speaker 3: styrophone box in your your dressing room with everything closed off.
Speaker 3: You know, I of course will never I'm it was
Speaker 3: kind of crazy that this is the episode you picked
Speaker 3: because it all came. I hadn't watched the episode since
Speaker 3: it all came flooding back to me and even I'm
Speaker 3: uncomfortable watching myself in this episode because I I remember
Speaker 3: how awkward and uncomfortable I felt, and to me, it
Speaker 3: may not show to anybody else.
Speaker 1: To me, the performance is not oh see, I feel
Speaker 1: like because we all knew how traumatic New York was
Speaker 1: for people, but especially healthcare workers, and I like thought
Speaker 1: your performance was great because I was like, you were
Speaker 1: showing like the I thought you were showing the like
Speaker 1: not only is does it seem like this guy was
Speaker 1: your friend who's been attacked and is now in a coma,
Speaker 1: so you're upset, but it's also like this on top
Speaker 1: of the horrors that I'm seeing all day long, every day, okay,
Speaker 1: in an emergency room.
Speaker 3: Like you know, I'm very grateful to hear that. That's great,
Speaker 3: you know, but it's hard to go back and because
Speaker 3: I rarely, ever, ever, for anything, go back and watch
Speaker 3: an old episode of mine usually, so I'm always going
Speaker 3: to be very critical. But that's great. Where were you
Speaker 3: that day on set?
Speaker 1: Because that happened the way, like, I don't know, the
Speaker 1: way you were talking about Edie Falco before sounds like
Speaker 1: what a lot of people talk to say to us
Speaker 1: about Mariska Hargitay like and that kind of was like, yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, well, when you say like, because we've been
Speaker 1: saying that since the beginning. One of the big things
Speaker 1: after like the fiftieth person that was like she's an
Speaker 1: angel on Earth. I was like, that just goes to
Speaker 1: show that when you hear about some number one on
Speaker 1: the call sheet acting like a jackass, that that's just
Speaker 1: who they are.
Speaker 3: That's not the stress of the job.
Speaker 1: Because this is the person who's been leading this show
Speaker 1: for twenty seven years, and everybody pretty much we've talked
Speaker 1: to said she's the best person and leads with humor
Speaker 1: and grace and this and that. So if you can
Speaker 1: do that and not get burnt out or an attitude problem,
Speaker 1: then you're.
Speaker 3: Just a jay Amen. Exactly right, exactly right, because if she,
Speaker 3: of anybody you know, you would think, well, by this point,
Speaker 3: certainly she's over it. She's going to be cranky, She's
Speaker 3: going to be completely the opposite. She is. She is
Speaker 3: she I don't have enough great things that say about her.
Speaker 3: She made me feel so welcome what she did. And
Speaker 3: this isn't me bragging about myself at all, because I
Speaker 3: can't stay I'm doing that just as many insecurities as
Speaker 3: most actors do. And you know, I throw it out there, hope,
Speaker 3: hope it lands, and you know, what can you do?
Speaker 3: But I think it was my second episode with Mushka
Speaker 3: where she just sort of after take and it wasn't
Speaker 3: that there wasn't necessarily anything dramatic that I was doing.
Speaker 3: It was another walk and talk with the she and
Speaker 3: I and I'm describing what's going on with the patient,
Speaker 3: and there's some medical jargon there, and and then in
Speaker 3: between the we cut, and then she just kind of
Speaker 3: made this announcement about you know, Warren. I don't know
Speaker 3: where you got him, but he and he is exactly
Speaker 3: right for this role and his compassion and his and
Speaker 3: I was she didn't have to do that. She didn't,
Speaker 3: And I didn't think I did any thing special. I
Speaker 3: really didn't. I still don't think I did anything special.
Speaker 3: But the fact that she took a moment in front
Speaker 3: of everybody to make me feel like a million bucks
Speaker 3: wow in seeing whatever it was, you know how many
Speaker 3: twenty one, twenty two, I don't know. She didn't have
Speaker 3: to do that, and most stars aren't gonna do that
Speaker 3: because you know, it's unexpected. So that in itself, but
Speaker 3: even if she hadn't done that, she she greets me
Speaker 3: so warmly, a big hug. She's looking right in your face.
Speaker 3: She's got a lot of work to do, but she'd
Speaker 3: never she she always takes a moment to acknowledge, Oh
Speaker 3: you're here, I see you glad you're here. How are you?
Speaker 3: Let's get to work, and that means everything. That's all
Speaker 3: it takes. You don't need to have a star sit
Speaker 3: and become you know, and talk to you for an hour.
Speaker 3: There's no time for that. But and I'm telling you,
Speaker 3: and going back to our misogynist, you know, uh, in
Speaker 3: the world that we are so up and in, they're there,
Speaker 3: you know, she she is, this is her show, this
Speaker 3: is Nobody knows that show better than her, nobody. So
Speaker 3: she comes in and she she has her finger on
Speaker 3: every aspect of it, and she is she speaks her mind.
Speaker 3: But it's always she's always right. It's it's never about
Speaker 3: where's Murska's cappuccino? You know what I mean? It's always
Speaker 3: about Okay, wait a minute. That doesn't really work because
Speaker 3: shouldn't he say this? And and I personally, I think
Speaker 3: there's some actors that can be thrown by that because
Speaker 3: it's quick. It is TV is quick in general, and
Speaker 3: a show like this, the procedural, you know, there's no
Speaker 3: time and you're getting a lot of stuff out, so
Speaker 3: any any minor problem has to be fixed right away.
Speaker 3: So there's a directness there. But to me, I'm excited
Speaker 3: by that because it's somebody who knows what they're talking about,
Speaker 3: and it's all for the good of the whole thing.
Speaker 3: So now, if it were a man, I don't think
Speaker 3: anybody would blink an eye, you know, but people are
Speaker 3: still I don't know if you two have an experience
Speaker 3: with this being females in the world at all, but uh,
Speaker 3: you know, there are plenty of people that that can
Speaker 3: be feel off. You're thrown off by a confident woman
Speaker 3: who knows what she's talking about, and I and that
Speaker 3: that's exactly who she is. And yeah, and I dare
Speaker 3: anybody to to say something negative about her on that show,
Speaker 3: because I really knock people.
Speaker 2: And yeah, no one said there's been a speech though
Speaker 2: that's special for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no one said kind of giving them up that
Speaker 3: I just again, I'm I I that was so unexpected
Speaker 3: and unnecessary because uh, but it meant. It meant something
Speaker 3: to me. It really did, because we we so often
Speaker 3: and I'm sure you both can appreciate this too. Doing
Speaker 3: what you love to do. Sometimes all it takes is
Speaker 3: just one person saying, oh, great job. You know, it
Speaker 3: doesn't have to be even bigger than that. Just looking
Speaker 3: you and the ID saying that was great, thank you.
Speaker 3: So when somebody goes out of their way to say
Speaker 3: that in front of other people, when it so rarely
Speaker 3: happens and there's not really time, that's why it sticks
Speaker 3: with me. Again, I don't think I didn't do anything
Speaker 3: emmy worthy in that scene. I didn't. It was I
Speaker 3: was doing my job. But oh my gosh, how lovely
Speaker 3: for you to take the time to say you're doing
Speaker 3: this job great, We're so glad we have you. That
Speaker 3: that means anything. And I tried to do that to
Speaker 3: other people if I'm in that position, because I know
Speaker 3: that's in this world. That's sometimes all it takes is
Speaker 3: that was great, thank you, You're welcome. I appreciate it. It
Speaker 3: whatever so simple as that.
Speaker 1: I sort of feel like they're primed to make there
Speaker 1: be an episode where you have a bigger you have
Speaker 1: a huge like a big do you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like there was a guy who was Taru, the
Speaker 1: technical He would come in and like do the computer stuff,
Speaker 1: and then he had a personal thing where his nephew
Speaker 1: got molested because someone lured him from a video game,
Speaker 1: and he was like helping investigate case. I feel like
Speaker 1: we're close to you having a case where it's someone
Speaker 1: you know or something happens to you, or like we
Speaker 1: got to get the mode, we got to get a
Speaker 1: rooty case that's like closer, or like someone confesses something
Speaker 1: to you that you can't tell because they've confided in you.
Speaker 3: Like I could see there being something. I would love it.
Speaker 3: I would love it because I love going back to
Speaker 3: that set too. It really is, oh, without questioning, one
Speaker 3: of the nicest sets. And again that starts with Murscott.
Speaker 3: It just does. It starts from the number one affects everything,
Speaker 3: and there are so many Now I've not been back.
Speaker 3: Wait have I been back since Warren left?
Speaker 1: You did season two twenty six? You just weren't on
Speaker 1: the last season. Okay, yeah, so you definitely have been right, right,
Speaker 1: Uh okay, I believe you. It's all a blurtout. Yeah again,
Speaker 1: you know so much better than I do. I don't
Speaker 1: know what's going it's just from IMDb. I hope they're
Speaker 1: not lying to me, but yeah, no they're not.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean I would love it and I
Speaker 3: will go back into any capacity. That's the truth. So
Speaker 3: I love it. Well, thank you, Rudy Rudy centric.
Speaker 1: Is there anything you want to like plug or promote
Speaker 1: or anything before you go?
Speaker 3: Not at the moment, because the thing I just got over.
Speaker 3: Most of my last twelve months has been about I
Speaker 3: broke my hip in November and no glamorous story at all.
Speaker 3: I stood up to go to the bathroom in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night and got dizzy and fell on myself,
Speaker 3: so that led to that had to heal, and then
Speaker 3: I had to get a full hip replacement in May.
Speaker 3: So my last almost twelve months has been all about
Speaker 3: recovering from that, which is great. So my my career
Speaker 3: understandably was So now you're back, you're ready. Well, good,
Speaker 3: now I'm back and I'm finally feeling like myself. But
Speaker 3: it felt very covid like in a way, like everything's
Speaker 3: sort of but it's good now, I'm I am, I'm back.
Speaker 3: So nothing to plug yet but hopefully soon. Well. Well,
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you're all healed up and ready to
Speaker 3: hit that. Thank you. Yeah, you know, chronic pain. It's
Speaker 3: the son of the gun. I don't care who you are. Yeah, Oh,
Speaker 3: don't break.
Speaker 1: Anything, okay, good note, good note, Stephen, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: This is amazing, Solungly to meet you.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I cannot believe we talked to Thorpe.
Speaker 1: I can't believe. He was the nicest person on the planet.
Speaker 1: And I love him, And I just.
Speaker 2: Love people that you could tell they're obsessed with what
Speaker 2: they're doing and happy. I mean, having a hip replaced
Speaker 2: and my mom's been there, it's like not an easy
Speaker 2: fucking thing.
Speaker 3: We need them back.
Speaker 2: I'm like, we need to get He's a veil and
Speaker 2: I do want a story deeper with him.
Speaker 3: I do. Yeah, I think a male.
Speaker 1: Saye nurse is also good for men that are sexually assaulted,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no. And he's great. I mean he's great
Speaker 2: in the show. He's great in everything. And thrilled we
Speaker 2: finally got him on the pod. I mean I always
Speaker 2: say this, but it's like crazy, We've been doing it
Speaker 2: for so long. We still get to be like excited
Speaker 2: about the people we get.
Speaker 3: Still get pumped. I love these people that we get
Speaker 3: to talk to and that I remember seeing him on
Speaker 3: the sidewalk, you know.
Speaker 1: And I'm obsessed with like him and Eity Falco being
Speaker 1: best friends, like if I saw them mount in the
Speaker 1: wild like together. I feel like I would have a
Speaker 1: dissociative like episode.
Speaker 3: I would be like where am I like?
Speaker 2: And as he was talking about her, I was like,
Speaker 2: this is the way people talk about Marishka. It's like
Speaker 2: these women need to lead shows, and like the reputation
Speaker 2: is like women divas, but really it seems like anyone
Speaker 2: that's like a woman number one is kind of killing it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in terms of personality and work ethic. Yeah, men are
Speaker 2: causing issues obviously.
Speaker 1: To do a post mortem on this episode, it's like,
Speaker 1: we don't need Karen's. We don't need people screaming at
Speaker 1: black people trying to exist or any people of color
Speaker 1: trying to exist.
Speaker 2: I mean I talked about this last week that I
Speaker 2: went to the Giant's exhibit that's like Alicia Keys in
Speaker 2: Swist Speeds collection, and I cried because it's like like,
Speaker 2: let people, let black people do regular, ordinary activities in peace.
Speaker 2: And that was like on one of the placards, on
Speaker 2: one of the pieces, and like one of Derek Adams,
Speaker 2: he has this long piece and it's like the Flotation
Speaker 2: kind of series and it's like just a bunch of
Speaker 2: black people on pool floaties, relaxing and just to show
Speaker 2: leisure and then on the bench was like two young
Speaker 2: black children and they looked at me because I was
Speaker 2: taking a phot and they're like, are we in your way?
Speaker 2: And it's like, not only are you not in my way?
Speaker 2: Like this is all I hope for in terms of
Speaker 2: like seeing art, seeing other people see art, what it represents,
Speaker 2: seeing it in front of me, I don't know. It's
Speaker 2: just like when you don't when you stop to think
Speaker 2: about the black experience in America for a fucking moment,
Speaker 2: it's like, can they just have peace?
Speaker 3: Not even in their own home?
Speaker 2: Breonna Taylor shot in her fucking sleep, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like and they got off. Yeah, it's like, you know,
Speaker 2: Trayvon Martin just walking in his neighborhood, like it really.
Speaker 3: Is, Like it's devastating, It's devastating. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why I loved seeing this art, where
Speaker 2: so much of it is just portraying black people relaxing
Speaker 2: and living and how that is like.
Speaker 3: Radical.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like this guy is just a burder, Like this
Speaker 2: guy was just working out in the episode and immediate suspicion,
Speaker 2: immediate untrust.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's disgusting. Yeah, and then.
Speaker 2: And we have to unlearn it, like we are abroad
Speaker 2: of it, Like I sit and say all this stuff,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure I have moments where I have to
Speaker 2: stop myself and go, oh, are you being biased right now?
Speaker 2: Like you know, it's not like I'm better or I'm
Speaker 2: above this society.
Speaker 3: I'm a part of it.
Speaker 2: It's like we all have to constantly be questioning what
Speaker 2: we're up to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, we do talk about we acknowledge the
Speaker 1: show as copaganda. But I would wager to say there
Speaker 1: are other procedural shows that would not take on these
Speaker 1: issues and then would not and if they did, they
Speaker 1: would twist them in a way to be like, well,
Speaker 1: the cops are actually the good the good ones anyway,
Speaker 1: Like at the end of it, Benson is saying, I
Speaker 1: have a lot of work to do, and so does
Speaker 1: every cop you know, And I think those moments on
Speaker 1: the show make me kind of are like why I
Speaker 1: think that this show, even though they are, you know,
Speaker 1: glorifying a few specific police officers, officers of the law,
Speaker 1: I do think that you know, they they are taking
Speaker 1: like these cops take some accountability, which is a further
Speaker 1: fantasy of the law, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: she's taking some accountability, but then.
Speaker 2: Also like iced tea, like that unique perspective of being
Speaker 2: a black office.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and dealing with all of that constantly.
Speaker 1: As Garland said, yeah, I mean we can't even get
Speaker 1: started on Noel Wells, like that whole freaking trial we
Speaker 1: talked about Lindsey Clancy up and like we need the autopsy,
Speaker 1: we need more information about what happened to this poor
Speaker 1: fucking boy.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's dangerous and that's why like being yeah,
Speaker 2: like it's not safe for black people to be around
Speaker 2: all groups because this isn't the first one.
Speaker 3: Remember the photo.
Speaker 2: I forgot the details of the case, but it's like
Speaker 2: this giant sleepover with grown women and everyone is why
Speaker 2: and that one black woman is dead and it's died. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's like the not caring. It's like, Okay, something
Speaker 2: happened with your friend. Why are we not doing everything
Speaker 2: we can? So he obviously was never your fucking friend
Speaker 2: or you did it? Like how are you like if
Speaker 2: something happened to Noett, like why would you be leaving?
Speaker 2: Why would you have his phote? Like yeah, it's so
Speaker 2: fucked up. Yeah, So I was just like crying at
Speaker 2: this museum non stop.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but well, let's move on to what would Sister
Speaker 1: Peg do our weekly segment where we direct you to
Speaker 1: a documentary, an organization, a book, something, because we would
Speaker 1: like to point you to Christian Cooper's book called Better
Speaker 1: Living Through Birding. It's a New York Times bestseller. It
Speaker 1: tells the story of his extraordinary life leading up to
Speaker 1: this now infamous incident in Central Park and shows how
Speaker 1: a life spent looking at the birds prepared him in
Speaker 1: the most uncanny of ways to be a gay black
Speaker 1: man in America today. So check it out at your
Speaker 1: local library or at your local independent bookshop, you guys,
Speaker 1: and we'll to it in our show notes, and then
Speaker 1: it'll be in a story the day this episode comes out,
Speaker 1: and all of those are saved in our WWSPD highlights
Speaker 1: on That's Messed Up Pod Instagram page, all of our
Speaker 1: highlights save all of our old wwspds if you want
Speaker 1: to check them.
Speaker 2: Out, Thank you so much, and also check your biases everyone,
Speaker 2: And then next week we'll be doing our three hundredth
Speaker 2: episode bang from season twelve, episode twenty two, and yeah,
Speaker 2: lots of bangs happen in.
Speaker 3: Episode three hundred. Everybody to my God.
Speaker 2: You know that they all fucked each other. Who the
Speaker 2: three hundred soldiers? Oh my, the movie three hundred.
Speaker 1: I know where you were going with that, Like certain
Speaker 1: times I know where your mind is going and other
Speaker 1: times I really don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw a thing like That's why I like
Speaker 2: dudes used to like all those soldiers would fuck.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's true in like a kill in
Speaker 1: Trojan War and everything like that as well. That's said
Speaker 1: to have happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm back.
Speaker 1: Is all long a time, but yeah, we're excited for
Speaker 1: our three hundred episode.
Speaker 3: We love our tommies. It's going to be a really
Speaker 3: good one. So better see you there, Bye bye.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
Speaker 1: That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
Speaker 2: and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you, so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and.
Speaker 1: To our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner,
Speaker 1: and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, and Carly
Speaker 1: Geen Andrews for our artwork. I thank you to our
Speaker 1: executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody
Speaker 1: at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 3: Dun Dun