Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today
Speaker 2: by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a boiler water drop volunteer
Speaker 2: I've done some water ropes together, and also an immigration layer,
Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about ice transferring people and
Speaker 2: their detention and generally the sort of post a rival
Speaker 2: process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come
Speaker 2: to the United States. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks.
Speaker 2: For being here. So I think to start out with
Speaker 2: people when I speak to them, like in my day
Speaker 2: to day life, are very unaware of the situations that
Speaker 2: migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right,
Speaker 2: So maybe we could start off by just explaining that
Speaker 2: this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate
Speaker 2: in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock
Speaker 2: you up, but you don't get a public defender assigned
Speaker 2: to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say
Speaker 2: someone comes through the hole in the fence in Ciccumbo, Right,
Speaker 2: they get detained at the o EDS, We give them
Speaker 2: a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get
Speaker 2: taken out processed. What happens after that. So from when
Speaker 2: they come to street release, what in terms of their
Speaker 2: legal representation, how does it work?
Speaker 3: Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well
Speaker 3: as the people who are then taken to ICE attention. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 3: so I'll start with the street release folks, so they well, first,
Speaker 3: anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a
Speaker 3: port of entry is subject to detention, not just by
Speaker 3: Border Patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean sorry,
Speaker 3: the lining, the silver lining of this entire awful situation
Speaker 3: is that there's so many people coming that there's not
Speaker 3: enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the
Speaker 3: street releases. So the people can then go directly to
Speaker 3: their family. They will go with a notice to a
Speaker 3: peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued
Speaker 3: by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the
Speaker 3: immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice
Speaker 3: to a peer might have a false date on it
Speaker 3: as far as their court date, So that's the first
Speaker 3: d it's the first issue.
Speaker 2: So what does that mean when you say a false date?
Speaker 2: Like if they share upon that date, the hearing won't
Speaker 2: be happening.
Speaker 3: So there's been a trend over the years to put
Speaker 3: to be decided as a hearing date on their notice
Speaker 3: to appear, which is the first document that says, hey,
Speaker 3: you're now you can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll
Speaker 3: send you a later notice to your address that you
Speaker 3: gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing,
Speaker 3: or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar
Speaker 3: pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this
Speaker 3: is bs. You need to put a date in time.
Speaker 3: The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to
Speaker 3: take the time to coordinate with the courts to make
Speaker 3: sure that there's actually a judge on that date and
Speaker 3: time that they assign, So to satisfy the legal requirements
Speaker 3: that we've pushed for, they often will just put a
Speaker 3: fake date and time. So, in other words, they haven't
Speaker 3: done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting
Speaker 3: at some court that day or time to hear their case.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just making it up.
Speaker 3: So this is exactly So this is of course incredibly
Speaker 3: confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney
Speaker 3: immediately to explain this concept to them. Because they first
Speaker 3: of all, won't know how to look for when their
Speaker 3: actual court date is, which is a link that I
Speaker 3: don't think Border patrol ever gives them. And then if
Speaker 3: they miss their actual court date, then they will of
Speaker 3: course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE
Speaker 3: is after them, and really they have no other options
Speaker 3: at that point. So really the need for an attorney
Speaker 3: arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid
Speaker 3: all their money to transnational immigration criminal organizations, excuse me, so,
Speaker 3: and an asylum case is costly. So they have a
Speaker 3: right to an attorney, as you said, but only at
Speaker 3: their own expense. Yeah, so this is a tremendous challenge
Speaker 3: off the bat, as you can imagine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down
Speaker 2: that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense.
Speaker 2: But without an attorney, they may not be able to
Speaker 2: obtain a work permit.
Speaker 3: Right, So one hundred percent, I mean, navigating the process
Speaker 3: on your own is as an immigrant, it just it
Speaker 3: seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so
Speaker 3: much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is,
Speaker 3: and it's evolving all the time. So even if you
Speaker 3: managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process
Speaker 3: and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing
Speaker 3: where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's
Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean,
Speaker 3: let's just say I got a work permit with somebody
Speaker 3: else's photo on it the other day, so you know,
Speaker 3: so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant
Speaker 3: even navigate that process is it just seems impossible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied
Speaker 2: for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I
Speaker 2: that myself, and English is my first language. I have
Speaker 2: a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both
Speaker 2: scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting
Speaker 2: on it. It's extremely anxiety.
Speaker 3: By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated
Speaker 3: forms to become a resident since I mean, like the
Speaker 3: thirties or something, right asked about it coming to possible
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it as
Speaker 3: difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so how about the folks who go into ice
Speaker 2: detention there?
Speaker 3: So these are typically people well, I mean that's just
Speaker 3: the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who
Speaker 3: go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to
Speaker 3: me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where
Speaker 3: if they have a prior deportation order or prior criminal
Speaker 3: or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained.
Speaker 3: But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in
Speaker 3: the detention. I have a few black clients right now
Speaker 3: in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced
Speaker 3: they are not even white but Latino, they would have
Speaker 3: been released already. So and one of them is a
Speaker 3: black Muslim man from Kenya, and he's been called a
Speaker 3: suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that
Speaker 3: he's been intotention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll
Speaker 3: just hold them for that reason because he's a black
Speaker 3: Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious
Speaker 3: cases like for example, this man was an opposition party
Speaker 3: leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just
Speaker 3: need I mean, whether they win or not win their
Speaker 3: case or not, can hinge on just being able to
Speaker 3: get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably
Speaker 3: would have been able to put together a good case
Speaker 3: on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases
Speaker 3: detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so
Speaker 3: then they have to work with a family member on
Speaker 3: the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney.
Speaker 3: Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained
Speaker 3: work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean,
Speaker 3: access to your client is just so limited. And getting evidence,
Speaker 3: I mean they have to have a reliable family and
Speaker 3: to support network on the outside essentially to help them
Speaker 3: get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else
Speaker 3: do you do that detained And so it's a lot
Speaker 3: of work, coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So
Speaker 3: San Diego County saw that need actually started a great program.
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they
Speaker 3: weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for
Speaker 3: a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And
Speaker 3: it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically
Speaker 3: pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE,
Speaker 3: which is of course the big ice attention center in
Speaker 3: San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys,
Speaker 3: you know, or more or slightly more represented people at
Speaker 3: O taime Asie, which was great. Yeah, because typically when
Speaker 3: I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence,
Speaker 3: You'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple maybe
Speaker 3: at most like five, and then you see all the detainees,
Speaker 3: the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there
Speaker 3: are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by
Speaker 3: the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as
Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers.
Speaker 2: Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly,
Speaker 2: and certainly, like god forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if
Speaker 2: you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection
Speaker 2: of things that are going to have you sent street.
Speaker 3: To do exactly.
Speaker 2: Just to briefly explain for people who an't familiar when
Speaker 2: we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like,
Speaker 2: what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention.
Speaker 3: Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers,
Speaker 3: So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two
Speaker 3: large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not
Speaker 3: familiar with these companies. Google them and you will immediately
Speaker 3: be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially.
Speaker 3: One of the biggest things in one can google this
Speaker 3: right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So
Speaker 3: literally the business model is to allow people to die
Speaker 3: detained as a cost of business rather than give them
Speaker 3: proper medical care or take them to the hospital and
Speaker 3: so forth. And they will pay out and they do
Speaker 3: pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action,
Speaker 3: not that any of my clients died, but just the
Speaker 3: the gravity to which the health situation has to be
Speaker 3: in order to have a prayer of getting them out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing
Speaker 2: that I come back to now, like four years issh
Speaker 2: into a Biden administration is that like on one of
Speaker 2: his first dexutive orders was he's going to end for
Speaker 2: profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention.
Speaker 2: Like right from the outset there was like these people
Speaker 2: are do not have the same right to the people,
Speaker 2: and we don't care about them as.
Speaker 3: Much exactly exactly, and at this part well and at
Speaker 3: this point too, it's like, given that he's done a
Speaker 3: one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that
Speaker 3: he said he was going to do. At the beginning,
Speaker 3: you kind of start to wonder, is he just being
Speaker 3: paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or
Speaker 3: cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars
Speaker 3: to whoever is running for president for good reason. So
Speaker 3: it makes you wonder from that aspect as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like it. Certainly it was in his immigration reform
Speaker 2: built right between increase the amount of ice, tension facility beds,
Speaker 2: rush cells or whatever how you want to put that.
Speaker 2: Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here
Speaker 2: is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is,
Speaker 2: fuck them.
Speaker 3: Amen.
Speaker 2: All right, we are back and we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something
Speaker 2: that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A.
Speaker 2: Pece written about it.
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because
Speaker 3: it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons.
Speaker 3: Detained work is very, very difficult, and just the fact
Speaker 3: that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now
Speaker 3: in light of the County program. But still it's it's
Speaker 3: very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the
Speaker 3: decline of the person in front of your eyes, both
Speaker 3: mentally and physically, and it's just it's take.
Speaker 2: A lot out of you.
Speaker 3: So these people need and deserve representation, and like I said,
Speaker 3: are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they
Speaker 3: could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and
Speaker 3: need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most
Speaker 3: marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE
Speaker 3: to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented
Speaker 3: detainees when they never have in the past, and they
Speaker 3: haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they
Speaker 3: shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like
Speaker 3: some and they describe it as some medical issue or
Speaker 3: something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious
Speaker 3: that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to
Speaker 3: get attorneys out of O Tai, because there's been more
Speaker 3: of them in there, and we tend to make a stink,
Speaker 3: and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why
Speaker 3: haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to
Speaker 3: be released, and what's going on here? And we tend
Speaker 3: to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients,
Speaker 3: and we tend to be pains in the asses. And
Speaker 3: before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not
Speaker 3: responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the
Speaker 3: ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to
Speaker 3: back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer,
Speaker 3: so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with,
Speaker 3: and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained,
Speaker 3: you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like
Speaker 3: any they're their point of contact. And so even under
Speaker 3: the Trump years, you'd be able to yeah, you might
Speaker 3: have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate
Speaker 3: with a couple of them or some of them would do,
Speaker 3: you know. And so I noticed in the past year
Speaker 3: or two that this ISS just been kind of this
Speaker 3: scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to
Speaker 3: you or yeah. And and they're also not responding to
Speaker 3: requests to have people released for just months and months
Speaker 3: and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise
Speaker 3: me that the timing of this and that they would
Speaker 3: do this. Now that I'm reflecting back on this as
Speaker 3: well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O
Speaker 3: Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens
Speaker 3: is if the person is transferred, which they've all been
Speaker 3: transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the
Speaker 3: best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that.
Speaker 3: Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are
Speaker 3: places where you can imagine there's a not a lot
Speaker 3: of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance
Speaker 3: of winning your case given the nature of the judges
Speaker 3: that are there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not
Speaker 2: want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here
Speaker 2: in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back
Speaker 2: to the fifth circuit there exactly.
Speaker 3: And that's where my clients are now. And one judge
Speaker 3: from O Tai decided who scolded me for suggesting that
Speaker 3: this was even by design. He told me to act
Speaker 3: more professional. He didn't say anything to the DHS attorney
Speaker 3: about what his client was doing. It told me to
Speaker 3: act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was
Speaker 3: talking about the Kenyan client. And so we're now in
Speaker 3: El Paso and thank God he has a strong case.
Speaker 3: But even then I wonder because that's it's I mean,
Speaker 3: if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badis.
Speaker 2: If it's someone who knows nothing the US.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have,
Speaker 3: you know, people pretending like a judges, you know, just
Speaker 3: like this had to happen when you have you know,
Speaker 3: seventy percent of people you know, at least that's slightly dated,
Speaker 3: but still I don't think the percentage is that, even
Speaker 3: if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to
Speaker 3: do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just there's no other way to to
Speaker 3: justify it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like when that happened, right, so you have
Speaker 2: this this gentleman from Kenya who's been he's been transferred
Speaker 2: to Texas. That then you then have to travel to
Speaker 2: Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle.
Speaker 3: And I have I have two different clients with two
Speaker 3: different experiences. So so he I will either have to
Speaker 3: appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge
Speaker 3: now has two people remotely because my client's not an
Speaker 3: El Paso either. He's detained an Anson, Texas, which is
Speaker 3: a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something.
Speaker 3: So they and this is also by design, right, they
Speaker 3: put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere
Speaker 3: because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum
Speaker 3: are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are
Speaker 3: going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think there needs to be some personal contact and
Speaker 3: maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council.
Speaker 3: I have to go to El Paso to give my
Speaker 3: client the best chance of something, you know. Otherwise we're
Speaker 3: both faces on this video with a fifth circuit judge,
Speaker 3: you know. So the other flip side of the coin
Speaker 3: was that I have another client who was transferred and
Speaker 3: his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week.
Speaker 3: So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings.
Speaker 3: So I filed something scathing, saying judge, please don't consider
Speaker 3: changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained
Speaker 3: long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way,
Speaker 3: I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. So Council for
Speaker 3: ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree
Speaker 3: to that. We just asked that he could appear via
Speaker 3: WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's
Speaker 3: going to be a face on a screen. But I
Speaker 3: can be at o tie. But still, I mean these
Speaker 3: are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants
Speaker 3: to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible.
Speaker 3: That means do they think they're lying or not. That's
Speaker 3: very hard to do on a video because you're looking
Speaker 3: for body language, you're looking for subtle things, you know.
Speaker 3: And also it's just like the human aspect of it
Speaker 3: is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum
Speaker 3: to somebody on a screen that it is somebody sitting
Speaker 3: in front of you. You know, there's so many there's
Speaker 3: so many small aspects, and so ICE claims like, oh well,
Speaker 3: well you just you can communicate, just fine, you know,
Speaker 3: you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being
Speaker 3: an attorney and what it means to to actually represent
Speaker 3: clients at the person's final court hearing, they are asked
Speaker 3: to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application,
Speaker 3: but also all evidence they filed. And so if how
Speaker 3: on earth can you show them and sit with them
Speaker 3: to show them the evidence in person? You know that
Speaker 3: you can only do and person. So it's just this
Speaker 3: whole concept that you can that you can even adequately
Speaker 3: lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's
Speaker 3: not possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially for people who are less, you know,
Speaker 2: like I spent less time on Zoom than we have
Speaker 2: in the past four years.
Speaker 3: Right exactly. And a lot of these people are are
Speaker 3: are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney,
Speaker 3: you need to build rapport with them, and you do
Speaker 3: that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might
Speaker 3: not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly,
Speaker 3: the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired
Speaker 3: me to be with him during his final hearing, and
Speaker 3: so now I can't even do that, you know, just
Speaker 3: to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified.
Speaker 3: They've been through so much and now they have to
Speaker 3: talk about all of it in front of this American
Speaker 3: judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I
Speaker 3: have to be their only ally is not even with them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying
Speaker 2: something on the phone or on a call might be
Speaker 2: a risk, right one hundred percent. You know it takes
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in
Speaker 2: this country. Like all of these things stuck up against them.
Speaker 3: I spend most of my time telling my clients like, hey,
Speaker 3: what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege,
Speaker 3: Like nobody could use this even if they try, and
Speaker 3: it doesn't calm them down because it's just they think
Speaker 3: they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries.
Speaker 3: And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded.
Speaker 3: I just know that it can't be you are it
Speaker 3: can't be used, you know. I mean so, yeah, there's
Speaker 3: so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained,
Speaker 3: and I just knows all of this full well. So
Speaker 3: this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we
Speaker 3: haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked
Speaker 3: by this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, when did it begin? Sort of?
Speaker 3: I want to say a couple months ago. But this
Speaker 3: mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to
Speaker 3: the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend,
Speaker 3: so they liked to do that too. I've noticed over
Speaker 3: holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport
Speaker 3: a couple of my clients even though they had things pending,
Speaker 3: and they try to do it over the weekend and
Speaker 3: so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would
Speaker 3: call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed
Speaker 3: for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had
Speaker 3: to do this twice a year ago, so I had
Speaker 3: to send two emails basically documenting and ceaseeing the ice
Speaker 3: attorney being like, Hi, they have a pending X y
Speaker 3: Z case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately.
Speaker 3: But like, had we not been notified over the weekend
Speaker 3: and sent that email, they would have been deported despite
Speaker 3: having a kid. So this is the type of stuff
Speaker 3: that regularly happens. But it's very ballsy to me to transfer,
Speaker 3: Like I think it was probably like one hundred people
Speaker 3: or hundreds or something, you know, I mean over a
Speaker 3: Memorial Day weekend, you know. And of course, oh, their
Speaker 3: memo by the way also says they're supposed to notify
Speaker 3: the attorneys, you know. I mean I heard from frantic
Speaker 3: family members who are like, why the fuck am I
Speaker 3: getting a call from ants in Texas?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't
Speaker 3: even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which
Speaker 3: is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week
Speaker 3: later we're moved to this place called blue Bonnet because
Speaker 3: they have to give them pretty names, right, detention facility
Speaker 3: at Antsen. Yeah, and so I had arranged a legal
Speaker 3: call at the first attention facility and then had to
Speaker 3: like do it all, do this process all over again,
Speaker 3: and they ask you for everything but like your DNA
Speaker 3: in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know,
Speaker 3: to get this legal call. I mean I spent two
Speaker 3: weeks just try to figure out where my client was.
Speaker 3: And these are two Imagine this is sucked up like
Speaker 3: all my time since Memorial Day. I mean there's other clients,
Speaker 3: you know, I've I've been struggling to get to their cases.
Speaker 3: Like thankfully I haven't had too many deadlines, but I
Speaker 3: mean it's it's been brutal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that secks totally brutal, pointing we have the brutal
Speaker 2: oligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So
Speaker 2: we're going to do that and then we're going to
Speaker 2: come back. All right, we're back. So we've heard about
Speaker 2: how ice A transferring people across two different different parts
Speaker 2: of the United States. What I wanted to talk about
Speaker 2: now was another recent development, which was Joe Biden's executive order,
Speaker 2: not the very recent one on parole in place. People
Speaker 2: have seen that, but it's one quote unquote closing the border.
Speaker 2: Can you explain, we haven't really seen that impact on
Speaker 2: the ground yet, but can you explain these people are
Speaker 2: supposed to get essentially a document forbidding them from re
Speaker 2: entering for five years.
Speaker 3: Correct, And it's not just any documents. Yes, it's the
Speaker 3: worst document. So it is an expedited or moval, which
Speaker 3: is a fancy term for a deportation order that when
Speaker 3: issued by Border Patrol CVP, carries with it a five
Speaker 3: year bar, and so that means you're not admissible in
Speaker 3: any way, shape or form to the United States, and
Speaker 3: if you try to re enter during that time period
Speaker 3: or even at any time irregularly, you will then be
Speaker 3: put in what's called withholding only proceedings, and that essentially
Speaker 3: means you were no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum,
Speaker 3: just a very very difficult form of asylum which is
Speaker 3: called withholding or protection of the Convention, it's torture, which
Speaker 3: is also very difficult to win. So that those are
Speaker 3: the two things you're stuck fighting. And then you are
Speaker 3: also mandatory attention, so there's no possibility of you getting
Speaker 3: out unless you're in your case, which is of course
Speaker 3: very very difficult. So I can I haven't seen this
Speaker 3: play out, you know, like we're saying it's relatively new
Speaker 3: and yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience
Speaker 3: and based on what all of us know, that like,
Speaker 3: people aren't gonna have any idea what this is, and
Speaker 3: they're gonna and plus there's desperation and other fact. I mean,
Speaker 3: they just came through the dairy end. They're not gonna
Speaker 3: let a piece of paper stop them, you know. So
Speaker 3: I mean, so these people are probably going to turn
Speaker 3: around and try again and end up being in this
Speaker 3: withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in
Speaker 3: terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort
Speaker 3: of relief, and definitely detained like they will not be released.
Speaker 3: I've had clients on occasion like every blue Moon be released,
Speaker 3: but the way I acting these days, I don't think
Speaker 3: it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is
Speaker 3: this justifying additional detention centers if we're now having going
Speaker 3: to have probably more of those types of people. But
Speaker 3: it just in general, I don't see there being a
Speaker 3: shortage of people they can detain, So I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think they Yeah. I don't think that
Speaker 2: we have an option in November to vote for a
Speaker 2: person who isn't going to build more prisons.
Speaker 3: For refugees one hundred percent one hundred percent, which is
Speaker 3: which is why. And I think that's something very you know,
Speaker 3: it can be you can take it and be like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm so depressed, you know, blah blah. There's nobody to
Speaker 3: vote for, like, you know, because basically Biden has done,
Speaker 3: you know, gravitated so far to the right.
Speaker 2: I called all the stuff that they waved it up
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, sod Trump will do this.
Speaker 3: Biden has stay exactly right, and so I don't even
Speaker 3: know that I called him Trump light, but I don't
Speaker 3: even know if he's Trump Light anymore. He's like more
Speaker 3: like Trump medium or almost there, you know.
Speaker 2: So less racist speeches.
Speaker 3: Exactly, Trump minus the racist spech is exactly. So it's
Speaker 3: just I mean, so the way to look at this
Speaker 3: is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean,
Speaker 3: the government here is not only like not only gonna
Speaker 3: not save them from anything. They're in creating all these situations,
Speaker 3: putting them in more peril. So it really behooves us
Speaker 3: to find all the different grassroots organizations, and there's there's
Speaker 3: so many of them that we can help and donate
Speaker 3: involundar teer our time too, because that's literally all these
Speaker 3: people have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about that a bit. Because something
Speaker 2: both you and I do as we participate in water drops,
Speaker 2: in in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations of
Speaker 2: the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and
Speaker 2: I were out Now I'm just going to collapses on itself,
Speaker 2: but we were out in a place near the border.
Speaker 2: We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes.
Speaker 2: You carried the Chinese exactly. Yeah, Yeah, that was so beautiful, right, Yea,
Speaker 2: it was such a wonderful, Like obviously it's pretty bleak
Speaker 2: that the guys aren't able to use one of his
Speaker 2: legs properly. And yeah, therefore two people who don't and
Speaker 2: share a single word with him had to carry him.
Speaker 2: And these two Mauritanian men we met, I'll just rewind
Speaker 2: to tell the whole story. Yeah, we were driving down
Speaker 2: the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees
Speaker 2: coming north and we were able to help them by
Speaker 2: giving them water in.
Speaker 3: The quick interruption. By the way, I looked up Mauritanian
Speaker 3: and unsurprisingly they have female general emulation, child labor and
Speaker 3: basically any like it's just horrific capital punishments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gay people, right, exactly. Yeah, So these people, very
Speaker 2: very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water, and
Speaker 2: you know how far tw weekend surrounded to border withtrol
Speaker 2: which is what they intend to do. And they kept
Speaker 2: saying that there's a guy with a broken leg and
Speaker 2: we were like, oh shit, but that's potentially fatal in
Speaker 2: this place that we're at. They just keep saying, go
Speaker 2: down the road, you'll see him. So we keep going
Speaker 2: down the road and we come around the corner and
Speaker 2: there's two guys sort of eat and then a third
Speaker 2: guy in the middle of them with his hands over
Speaker 2: both their shoulders, right, and they're sort of humping him
Speaker 2: down the road. And it turns out that this Chinese
Speaker 2: man only speaking Mandarin, had he had like a brace
Speaker 2: or like a like an external fixation on his leg,
Speaker 2: like like bolts through his leg and couldn't walk. And
Speaker 2: these dudes have been carrying him for two days and
Speaker 2: they couldn't she speak the same language like they didn't
Speaker 2: they weren't able to communicate, and it was the most
Speaker 2: humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed that
Speaker 2: like these people, in a time of desperation for themselves,
Speaker 2: have taken the risk to help other people. And then
Speaker 2: here's our government just being like, screw you. If you
Speaker 2: don't belong here, we're going to put you straight in
Speaker 2: prison or especially these these are mostly Muslim African men
Speaker 2: from Mauritania right there. Generally sort of that that will
Speaker 2: be one of the more persecuted demographics. And perhaps you
Speaker 2: can talk about like how you got into participating in
Speaker 2: water drops and how other people could do so, or
Speaker 2: any any form of a direct mutual aid, I suppose
Speaker 2: says like advocacy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think I think the
Speaker 3: main thing to take away is the it it's easier
Speaker 3: to help or participate then one would think, you know,
Speaker 3: I think you look at this issue of immigration and
Speaker 3: it's so overwhelming right now, and it can be a
Speaker 3: bit like, oh God, you know, what can I possibly do?
Speaker 3: Or you know, and even if i'm you know, what
Speaker 3: difference am I making?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 3: And it's just like I have the same struggles working
Speaker 3: as you know, an immigration attorney, because you're just like God,
Speaker 3: you see just the vast need and you know, you
Speaker 3: focus on the person in front of you, you know,
Speaker 3: and not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you
Speaker 3: can affect. And so we're and all of us collectively
Speaker 3: have an impact more than we know, you know. So
Speaker 3: I think that's just the first thing to share. So
Speaker 3: don't don't feel defeated and think that. Remember that if
Speaker 3: you have twenty extra bucks a month to spare, for example,
Speaker 3: like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then
Speaker 3: that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue.
Speaker 3: And you know, that's the other side of the coin.
Speaker 3: If we can go out all we want, but if
Speaker 3: we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing
Speaker 3: gets done, you know. So if you live in any
Speaker 3: part of the country, really you can find a reputable organization,
Speaker 3: you know, or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with
Speaker 3: Borderlands Relief Collective and every cent goes directly to the
Speaker 3: supplies that we drop, and that's a very huge, tangible
Speaker 3: source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as
Speaker 3: you know, within a week or so, we think, you know.
Speaker 3: So it's just there's so many different ways to to participate.
Speaker 3: There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants,
Speaker 3: you know, like Freedom for Immigrants or you know, there's
Speaker 3: different ways you can help if you want to communicate
Speaker 3: with them. There's also Detention Resistance who works with the
Speaker 3: people mainly in No Taimesa to help just provide even
Speaker 3: a source of support, just someone a human being to
Speaker 3: talk to, who can help them with little things like
Speaker 3: writing letters or putting money in their account to be
Speaker 3: able to contact family members. I say little things, but
Speaker 3: those things are huge because if you can imagine being
Speaker 3: an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in
Speaker 3: that and you're in a prison, but somebody in that
Speaker 3: country or a few people are are showing you love.
Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day, whether you're
Speaker 3: officially deported or when asylum or whatever, those are the
Speaker 3: things that stick with people because I know that they're
Speaker 3: going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's the least we can need
Speaker 2: to be welcoming with exactly exactly.
Speaker 3: That's why the welcome stations that we do are so
Speaker 3: beautiful too, right, because it's just I mean what we
Speaker 3: were doing that day when we met those two people
Speaker 3: or the three people rather, and it's just like they
Speaker 3: get a help a loving, helpful person as their first
Speaker 3: exposure to the United States. And then, you know, I said,
Speaker 3: instead of border patrol which makes them take off their
Speaker 3: shoelaces and treats them you.
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, like their criminals.
Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's nice like I've exchanged for nubers with
Speaker 2: those people and they're like, oh, you're the first American
Speaker 2: they met. You'll always be like my first American friend,
Speaker 2: someone said the other day. And though that was really sweet.
Speaker 3: It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think
Speaker 3: about that all the time with my clients. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm just like, God, I feel so fortunate to meet
Speaker 3: all these people, you know, from different countries. It's just
Speaker 3: and I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually
Speaker 3: google where the country is, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: it's awful. I don't know what our geography education was,
Speaker 3: but let's just say I didn't get much of it.
Speaker 3: But you know, just where am I going to meet
Speaker 3: people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know,
Speaker 3: and be able to really share life with them to
Speaker 3: a certain extent or you know, I know their most
Speaker 3: vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know,
Speaker 3: or about their families and about them, and it's a
Speaker 3: really beautiful thing. So it's just, you know, unfortunate. So
Speaker 3: to have to interact with them and in a prison
Speaker 3: is just you know, it's just it's just ridiculous, you know.
Speaker 3: But so that's that why those welcome tables are I
Speaker 3: think so just pure and precious because at that moment
Speaker 3: there's no bullshit involved yet, there's no US government. It's
Speaker 3: just humans interacting with humans.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it totally is really nice. It's one of the
Speaker 2: better things that I like to do. And yeah, if
Speaker 2: you if you replaced where you can do it, you
Speaker 2: should do it. If you're not, it will be great
Speaker 2: if you get in your money. I am going to
Speaker 2: read as we finish up a plug for the Sidewalk
Speaker 2: School Matamortos and by Noosa. I just want to like
Speaker 2: they are in desperate needed money right now. They do
Speaker 2: amazing work with people on both sides of the border.
Speaker 2: I've been on a panel with Felicia for UCLA that
Speaker 2: you can find if you're good at googling things. It's
Speaker 2: on YouTube. It's the Allied Community Arts Brigade. UCLA hosted
Speaker 2: a panel, so if you if you search that and
Speaker 2: Border panel, I'm sure you'll find it. And if you
Speaker 2: want to know more about the Sidewalk School, I recommend it.
Speaker 2: And we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and
Speaker 2: Alo Torolado, which are both excellent organizations working on the
Speaker 2: boarder here. But the Sidewalk School are working with refugees
Speaker 2: and asigum seekers on both sides of the border in
Speaker 2: Matamortos and Brayosa, so in Texas, and they definitely need
Speaker 2: your money. If you would like to support them, you
Speaker 2: can go to gofund dot me slash zero six, CDC
Speaker 2: seventy six and we'll include that in the notes of
Speaker 2: this podcast as well. Kasein, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: your time. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Thank you, James, thank you.
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