WEBVTT - Why Is ICE Relocating Migrants Away From Their Lawyers? 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.920 Also media. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.360 Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:11.560 by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a boiler water drop volunteer 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:14.480 I've done some water ropes together, and also an immigration layer, 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:16.840 and we're going to talk about ice transferring people and 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.799 their detention and generally the sort of post a rival 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.560 process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.119 to the United States. Welcome to the show. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.960 Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:31.120 For being here. So I think to start out with 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.320 people when I speak to them, like in my day 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.640 to day life, are very unaware of the situations that 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.280 migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.159 So maybe we could start off by just explaining that 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.159 this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.319 in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:50.920 you up, but you don't get a public defender assigned 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.479 to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:55.720 someone comes through the hole in the fence in Ciccumbo, Right, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.240 they get detained at the o EDS, We give them 0:00:58.240 --> 0:00:59.960 a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:03.560 taken out processed. What happens after that. So from when 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.600 they come to street release, what in terms of their 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.520 legal representation, how does it work? 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.720 Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.160 as the people who are then taken to ICE attention. Yes, yeah, 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.560 so I'll start with the street release folks, so they well, first, 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:25.560 anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:27.920 port of entry is subject to detention, not just by 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:32.199 Border Patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean sorry, 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.840 the lining, the silver lining of this entire awful situation 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:39.360 is that there's so many people coming that there's not 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.440 enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:45.080 street releases. So the people can then go directly to 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.680 their family. They will go with a notice to a 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:51.520 peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.920 by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.480 immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice 0:01:57.520 --> 0:01:59.600 to a peer might have a false date on it 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.320 as far as their court date, So that's the first 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:03.880 d it's the first issue. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:05.840 So what does that mean when you say a false date? 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.640 Like if they share upon that date, the hearing won't 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:08.160 be happening. 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:11.680 So there's been a trend over the years to put 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.280 to be decided as a hearing date on their notice 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:15.960 to appear, which is the first document that says, hey, 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.000 you're now you can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:21.680 send you a later notice to your address that you 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:23.720 gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing, 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:27.320 or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.440 pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this 0:02:29.480 --> 0:02:31.560 is bs. You need to put a date in time. 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.000 The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.120 take the time to coordinate with the courts to make 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:38.920 sure that there's actually a judge on that date and 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.960 time that they assign, So to satisfy the legal requirements 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:43.720 that we've pushed for, they often will just put a 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.440 fake date and time. So, in other words, they haven't 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.200 done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.799 at some court that day or time to hear their case. 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.040 Yeah, they're just making it up. 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:55.560 So this is exactly So this is of course incredibly 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.120 confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:02.399 immediately to explain this concept to them. Because they first 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:04.799 of all, won't know how to look for when their 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:07.240 actual court date is, which is a link that I 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:09.800 don't think Border patrol ever gives them. And then if 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.520 they miss their actual court date, then they will of 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:16.519 course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.320 is after them, and really they have no other options 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:22.000 at that point. So really the need for an attorney 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:26.359 arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.920 all their money to transnational immigration criminal organizations, excuse me, so, 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.920 and an asylum case is costly. So they have a 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.320 right to an attorney, as you said, but only at 0:03:37.360 --> 0:03:42.120 their own expense. Yeah, so this is a tremendous challenge 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:43.480 off the bat, as you can imagine. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.920 Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.240 that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense. 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.800 But without an attorney, they may not be able to 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:52.880 obtain a work permit. 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:56.680 Right, So one hundred percent, I mean, navigating the process 0:03:56.680 --> 0:04:01.120 on your own is as an immigrant, it just it 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:03.760 seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.880 much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is, 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.000 and it's evolving all the time. So even if you 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.680 managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:17.560 and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.080 where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:23.600 I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean, 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.120 let's just say I got a work permit with somebody 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.560 else's photo on it the other day, so you know, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:29.960 so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:33.960 even navigate that process is it just seems impossible. 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.599 Yeah, yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.960 for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.760 that myself, and English is my first language. I have 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.720 a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.400 scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:50.440 on it. It's extremely anxiety. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.440 By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:58.000 forms to become a resident since I mean, like the 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:00.919 thirties or something, right asked about it coming to possible 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:04.240 exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it as 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:06.840 difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else. 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.560 Yeah, so how about the folks who go into ice 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:10.359 detention there? 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:15.039 So these are typically people well, I mean that's just 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.080 the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.320 go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.560 me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.640 if they have a prior deportation order or prior criminal 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.600 or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.440 But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:39.200 the detention. I have a few black clients right now 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.320 in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:45.760 they are not even white but Latino, they would have 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.800 been released already. So and one of them is a 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.800 black Muslim man from Kenya, and he's been called a 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:55.039 suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.680 he's been intotention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:00.800 just hold them for that reason because he's a black 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.840 Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:07.000 cases like for example, this man was an opposition party 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:11.839 leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:15.080 need I mean, whether they win or not win their 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:16.800 case or not, can hinge on just being able to 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.880 get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:22.800 would have been able to put together a good case 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.799 on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.359 detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.240 then they have to work with a family member on 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.400 the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney. 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:38.520 Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.560 work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean, 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:46.080 access to your client is just so limited. And getting evidence, 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:48.240 I mean they have to have a reliable family and 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.480 to support network on the outside essentially to help them 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.360 get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:53.800 do you do that detained And so it's a lot 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:57.120 of work, coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:02.000 San Diego County saw that need actually started a great program. 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.560 I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they 0:07:05.600 --> 0:07:08.240 weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:09.800 a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.280 it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.960 pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE, 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:18.920 which is of course the big ice attention center in 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:23.640 San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.120 you know, or more or slightly more represented people at 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.240 O taime Asie, which was great. Yeah, because typically when 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.920 I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence, 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.520 You'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple maybe 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.280 at most like five, and then you see all the detainees, 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.680 the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:43.280 are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.120 the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.280 of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers. 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.960 Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly, 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.040 and certainly, like god forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.000 you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:00.280 of things that are going to have you sent street. 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:01.280 To do exactly. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.720 Just to briefly explain for people who an't familiar when 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.520 we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:12.280 what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.800 Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers, 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:21.520 So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.600 large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.360 familiar with these companies. Google them and you will immediately 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:33.439 be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.360 One of the biggest things in one can google this 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.640 right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:45.160 literally the business model is to allow people to die 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.920 detained as a cost of business rather than give them 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:51.880 proper medical care or take them to the hospital and 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:53.679 so forth. And they will pay out and they do 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:57.880 pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action, 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:03.120 not that any of my clients died, but just the 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:05.560 the gravity to which the health situation has to be 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:07.520 in order to have a prayer of getting them out. 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.720 Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.199 that I come back to now, like four years issh 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:17.800 into a Biden administration is that like on one of 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:19.840 his first dexutive orders was he's going to end for 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.640 profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention. 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.440 Like right from the outset there was like these people 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.360 are do not have the same right to the people, 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:30.600 and we don't care about them as. 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.720 Much exactly exactly, and at this part well and at 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.440 this point too, it's like, given that he's done a 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.600 one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:39.959 he said he was going to do. At the beginning, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.440 you kind of start to wonder, is he just being 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:44.480 paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.960 cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:51.600 to whoever is running for president for good reason. So 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.160 it makes you wonder from that aspect as well. 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.320 Yeah, like it. Certainly it was in his immigration reform 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:01.280 built right between increase the amount of ice, tension facility beds, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.800 rush cells or whatever how you want to put that. 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:06.640 Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.520 is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is, 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:10.319 fuck them. 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:11.000 Amen. 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.640 All right, we are back and we're going to talk 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.880 about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.800 that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A. 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:32.640 Pece written about it. 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.120 Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.840 it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons. 0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.320 Detained work is very, very difficult, and just the fact 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.679 that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:48.920 in light of the County program. But still it's it's 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:53.360 very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.400 decline of the person in front of your eyes, both 0:10:56.440 --> 0:11:00.040 mentally and physically, and it's just it's take. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:00.880 A lot out of you. 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.400 So these people need and deserve representation, and like I said, 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:09.160 are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:16.280 could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:18.720 need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.800 marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:28.080 to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.160 detainees when they never have in the past, and they 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.240 haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:39.080 shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:41.839 some and they describe it as some medical issue or 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:46.480 something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:51.440 that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:55.520 get attorneys out of O Tai, because there's been more 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.960 of them in there, and we tend to make a stink, 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.800 and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:03.800 haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.480 be released, and what's going on here? And we tend 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:08.880 to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients, 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:11.559 and we tend to be pains in the asses. And 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.000 before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.520 responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.760 ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.480 back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.320 so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with, 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.200 and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.679 you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:36.319 any they're their point of contact. And so even under 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.600 the Trump years, you'd be able to yeah, you might 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:41.040 have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:42.680 with a couple of them or some of them would do, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.520 you know. And so I noticed in the past year 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.440 or two that this ISS just been kind of this 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.400 scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:57.000 you or yeah. And and they're also not responding to 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.680 requests to have people released for just months and months 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:05.080 and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:07.920 me that the timing of this and that they would 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.439 do this. Now that I'm reflecting back on this as 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.439 well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.400 Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:20.760 is if the person is transferred, which they've all been 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.280 transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:28.560 best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.719 Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.679 places where you can imagine there's a not a lot 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.840 of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.079 of winning your case given the nature of the judges 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:40.880 that are there. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.839 Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.720 want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.040 in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.200 to the fifth circuit there exactly. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:55.960 And that's where my clients are now. And one judge 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.000 from O Tai decided who scolded me for suggesting that 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.440 this was even by design. He told me to act 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.800 more professional. He didn't say anything to the DHS attorney 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:06.400 about what his client was doing. It told me to 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.800 act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:11.640 talking about the Kenyan client. And so we're now in 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.080 El Paso and thank God he has a strong case. 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.200 But even then I wonder because that's it's I mean, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.160 if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badis. 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:25.960 If it's someone who knows nothing the US. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.760 Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.960 you know, people pretending like a judges, you know, just 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.600 like this had to happen when you have you know, 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:41.480 seventy percent of people you know, at least that's slightly dated, 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:43.360 but still I don't think the percentage is that, even 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.240 if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:50.240 do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.880 I mean, it's just there's no other way to to 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:55.080 justify it. 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.880 Yeah, and like when that happened, right, so you have 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:00.760 this this gentleman from Kenya who's been he's been transferred 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.280 to Texas. That then you then have to travel to 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.040 Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him. 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.520 Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle. 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.000 And I have I have two different clients with two 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:18.040 different experiences. So so he I will either have to 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:23.120 appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.320 now has two people remotely because my client's not an 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.560 El Paso either. He's detained an Anson, Texas, which is 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.840 a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something. 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.160 So they and this is also by design, right, they 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:40.040 put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.200 because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.880 are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.240 going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean, 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.600 I think there needs to be some personal contact and 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:54.240 maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council. 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.400 I have to go to El Paso to give my 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.240 client the best chance of something, you know. Otherwise we're 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.440 both faces on this video with a fifth circuit judge, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.800 you know. So the other flip side of the coin 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.880 was that I have another client who was transferred and 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.120 his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.480 So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings. 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:18.560 So I filed something scathing, saying judge, please don't consider 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.560 changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained 0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:23.720 long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way, 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:29.120 I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. So Council for 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.360 ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:33.840 to that. We just asked that he could appear via 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.120 WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:39.080 going to be a face on a screen. But I 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:40.800 can be at o tie. But still, I mean these 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.000 are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.960 to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible. 0:16:48.000 --> 0:16:50.600 That means do they think they're lying or not. That's 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.080 very hard to do on a video because you're looking 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.680 for body language, you're looking for subtle things, you know. 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.640 And also it's just like the human aspect of it 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.480 is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:05.320 to somebody on a screen that it is somebody sitting 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.240 in front of you. You know, there's so many there's 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.840 so many small aspects, and so ICE claims like, oh well, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.720 well you just you can communicate, just fine, you know, 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.840 you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls. 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.640 And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.040 an attorney and what it means to to actually represent 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:26.240 clients at the person's final court hearing, they are asked 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.800 to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application, 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.880 but also all evidence they filed. And so if how 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:34.840 on earth can you show them and sit with them 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.359 to show them the evidence in person? You know that 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:39.840 you can only do and person. So it's just this 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.000 whole concept that you can that you can even adequately 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:48.720 lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:49.560 not possible. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.919 Yeah, and especially for people who are less, you know, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.879 like I spent less time on Zoom than we have 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:56.600 in the past four years. 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.200 Right exactly. And a lot of these people are are 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:04.600 are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.719 you need to build rapport with them, and you do 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.960 that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:13.800 not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly, 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.200 the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.679 me to be with him during his final hearing, and 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.399 so now I can't even do that, you know, just 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:25.359 to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified. 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.840 They've been through so much and now they have to 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.240 talk about all of it in front of this American 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.960 judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.240 have to be their only ally is not even with them. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.480 Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:42.600 something on the phone or on a call might be 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.040 a risk, right one hundred percent. You know it takes 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:48.359 I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.640 this country. Like all of these things stuck up against them. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.200 I spend most of my time telling my clients like, hey, 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.800 what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege, 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:01.120 Like nobody could use this even if they try, and 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:03.840 it doesn't calm them down because it's just they think 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.640 they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries. 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.800 And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded. 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.439 I just know that it can't be you are it 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.440 can't be used, you know. I mean so, yeah, there's 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:20.160 so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained, 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:22.919 and I just knows all of this full well. So 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.359 this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:28.480 haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:28.800 by this. 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.359 Yeah, when did it begin? Sort of? 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.600 I want to say a couple months ago. But this 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.600 mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.080 the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend, 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:42.640 so they liked to do that too. I've noticed over 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:45.840 holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.440 a couple of my clients even though they had things pending, 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.239 and they try to do it over the weekend and 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.240 so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.359 call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.639 for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.080 to do this twice a year ago, so I had 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.280 to send two emails basically documenting and ceaseeing the ice 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.680 attorney being like, Hi, they have a pending X y 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.719 Z case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.439 But like, had we not been notified over the weekend 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.560 and sent that email, they would have been deported despite 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:23.440 having a kid. So this is the type of stuff 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.840