1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's me James and I am joined today 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 2: by Kirsty Zitlau, who is a boiler water drop volunteer 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 2: I've done some water ropes together, and also an immigration layer, 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and we're going to talk about ice transferring people and 6 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: their detention and generally the sort of post a rival 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: process that migrants asylum seeker specifically faced when they come 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 2: to the United States. Welcome to the show. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me, Thanks. 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 2: For being here. So I think to start out with 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: people when I speak to them, like in my day 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: to day life, are very unaware of the situations that 13 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: migrants face when it comes to obtaining legal representation. Right, 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: So maybe we could start off by just explaining that 15 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 2: this isn't like if you're accused of a crime rate 16 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 2: in theory it's a civil proceeding, but also they'll lock 17 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: you up, but you don't get a public defender assigned 18 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: to you. Right, So can you explain someone Let's say 19 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: someone comes through the hole in the fence in Ciccumbo, Right, 20 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: they get detained at the o EDS, We give them 21 00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and then they get 22 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: taken out processed. What happens after that. So from when 23 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: they come to street release, what in terms of their 24 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: legal representation, how does it work? 25 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: Yes, so I'll address the street release folks as well 26 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 3: as the people who are then taken to ICE attention. Yes, yeah, 27 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 3: so I'll start with the street release folks, so they well, first, 28 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 3: anybody who irregularly enters the United States not at a 29 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 3: port of entry is subject to detention, not just by 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 3: Border Patrol, but by ICE. The fortunate situation, I mean sorry, 31 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: the lining, the silver lining of this entire awful situation 32 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: is that there's so many people coming that there's not 33 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 3: enough detention space to detain everybody, and so hence the 34 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: street releases. So the people can then go directly to 35 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: their family. They will go with a notice to a 36 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 3: peer which starts their immigration court proceedings, which was issued 37 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 3: by Border Patrol. So immediately they have to navigate the 38 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 3: immigration court system, starting with the fact that the notice 39 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: to a peer might have a false date on it 40 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: as far as their court date, So that's the first 41 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: d it's the first issue. 42 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: So what does that mean when you say a false date? 43 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: Like if they share upon that date, the hearing won't 44 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: be happening. 45 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 3: So there's been a trend over the years to put 46 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 3: to be decided as a hearing date on their notice 47 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,960 Speaker 3: to appear, which is the first document that says, hey, 48 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 3: you're now you can put in immigration court proceedings. We'll 49 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 3: send you a later notice to your address that you 50 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: gave us of when you're actually going to have that hearing, 51 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: or rather the court will. So the immigration lawyer bar 52 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: pushed real hard on this issue and said, no, this 53 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: is bs. You need to put a date in time. 54 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: The reason they weren't is because they didn't want to 55 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 3: take the time to coordinate with the courts to make 56 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 3: sure that there's actually a judge on that date and 57 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 3: time that they assign, So to satisfy the legal requirements 58 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 3: that we've pushed for, they often will just put a 59 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 3: fake date and time. So, in other words, they haven't 60 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: done anything to verify whether there's actually a judge sitting 61 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: at some court that day or time to hear their case. 62 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just making it up. 63 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 3: So this is exactly So this is of course incredibly 64 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 3: confusing and very dangerous because they basically need an attorney 65 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 3: immediately to explain this concept to them. Because they first 66 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 3: of all, won't know how to look for when their 67 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 3: actual court date is, which is a link that I 68 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 3: don't think Border patrol ever gives them. And then if 69 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: they miss their actual court date, then they will of 70 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 3: course be ordered deported and the you know, then ICE 71 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 3: is after them, and really they have no other options 72 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 3: at that point. So really the need for an attorney 73 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,359 Speaker 3: arises immediately. And often immigrants have been robbed, they've paid 74 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 3: all their money to transnational immigration criminal organizations, excuse me, so, 75 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 3: and an asylum case is costly. So they have a 76 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: right to an attorney, as you said, but only at 77 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 3: their own expense. Yeah, so this is a tremendous challenge 78 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: off the bat, as you can imagine. 79 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then just to further sort of go down 80 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: that pathway, the attorney is paid for their own expense. 81 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 2: But without an attorney, they may not be able to 82 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: obtain a work permit. 83 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: Right, So one hundred percent, I mean, navigating the process 84 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: on your own is as an immigrant, it just it 85 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: seems basically impossible to me. I mean, there's there's so 86 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 3: much that even us as attorneys struggle with that it is, 87 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 3: and it's evolving all the time. So even if you 88 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 3: managed to submit your asylum application by yourself the process 89 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 3: and then later submitting the work permit form and knowing 90 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 3: where to send it and how to navigate uscis that's 91 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, it's difficult for us. I mean, 92 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: let's just say I got a work permit with somebody 93 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 3: else's photo on it the other day, so you know, 94 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: so it's a total mess. And to have an immigrant 95 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: even navigate that process is it just seems impossible. 96 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I've no, I have not applied 97 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: for asylum, but when I renewed my green card, I 98 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: that myself, and English is my first language. I have 99 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 2: a PhD. I'm used to paperwork, and it was both 100 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: scary and complicated, and exactly your whole future is resting 101 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: on it. It's extremely anxiety. 102 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: By design too. I mean it's it's they haven't updated 103 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: forms to become a resident since I mean, like the 104 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 3: thirties or something, right asked about it coming to possible 105 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 3: exactly exactly, and it's all just to make it as 106 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 3: difficult as possible in the wait times and everything else. 107 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so how about the folks who go into ice 108 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: detention there? 109 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: So these are typically people well, I mean that's just 110 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 3: the thing. These days, there aren't the typical people who 111 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: go into ICE attention. It's kind of it seems to 112 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: me that certainly there's people who are mandatory detention, where 113 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: if they have a prior deportation order or prior criminal 114 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 3: or immigration history in this country, they will probably be detained. 115 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: But I've also noticed a lot of racial profiling in 116 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: the detention. I have a few black clients right now 117 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 3: in detention, and if they were white, I'm absolutely convinced 118 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: they are not even white but Latino, they would have 119 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: been released already. So and one of them is a 120 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 3: black Muslim man from Kenya, and he's been called a 121 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 3: suspected terrorist by ICE for six months or more that 122 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 3: he's been intotention with zero proof whatsoever, and so they'll 123 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: just hold them for that reason because he's a black 124 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 3: Muslim man. So these are often people with very meritorious 125 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 3: cases like for example, this man was an opposition party 126 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 3: leader and recruiter back in Kenya. So these people just 127 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: need I mean, whether they win or not win their 128 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 3: case or not, can hinge on just being able to 129 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 3: get representation, you know, because he's very intelligent and probably 130 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: would have been able to put together a good case 131 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 3: on his behalf. But the stats about people winning cases 132 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 3: detained without attorneys is very, very low. So yeah, so 133 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 3: then they have to work with a family member on 134 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: the outside obviously to get a hold of an attorney. 135 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: Not a lot of attorneys or all attorneys do detained 136 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 3: work because it is so difficult to start with, I mean, 137 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 3: access to your client is just so limited. And getting evidence, 138 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: I mean they have to have a reliable family and 139 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 3: to support network on the outside essentially to help them 140 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: get evidence from their home country. I mean, how else 141 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: do you do that detained And so it's a lot 142 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: of work, coordinating as an attorney and so forth. So 143 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 3: San Diego County saw that need actually started a great program. 144 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure when it started, but apparently they 145 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 3: weren't getting enough applicants and maybe it's been around for 146 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 3: a little bit, but they didn't know about it. And 147 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 3: it's they set aside like five million dollars to specifically 148 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 3: pay attorneys to represent people detained an O time ASIE, 149 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: which is of course the big ice attention center in 150 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: San Diego. So that caused there to be more attorneys, 151 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 3: you know, or more or slightly more represented people at 152 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: O taime Asie, which was great. Yeah, because typically when 153 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 3: I go in there, you know, this is just anecdotal evidence, 154 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: You'll see a handful of attorneys, maybe a couple maybe 155 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: at most like five, and then you see all the detainees, 156 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 3: the immigrants sitting there, and there's clearly more than there 157 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 3: are attorneys. So you know, I read a stat by 158 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: the ALU that it's like something like seventy percent as 159 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 3: of twenty twenty one did not have attorneys and detention centers. 160 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: Right, so they just won't be represented throughout that process exactly, 161 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: and certainly, like god forbid, you're a Muslim, Yeah, if 162 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: you're a black Muslim man, you're like at the intersection 163 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 2: of things that are going to have you sent street. 164 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: To do exactly. 165 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: Just to briefly explain for people who an't familiar when 166 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: we talk about ICE detention, what are we talking about, Like, 167 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: what are the conditions and who is often operating these detention. 168 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: Centers excellent points. So these are for profit detention centers, 169 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: So it is operated by ICE in conjunction with two 170 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: large companies called Corcivic or Geogroup. And if you're not 171 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 3: familiar with these companies. Google them and you will immediately 172 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 3: be horrified. Yeah, so it's a horrifying state of affairs. Essentially. 173 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: One of the biggest things in one can google this 174 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 3: right now is the wrongful death suits and payouts. So 175 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 3: literally the business model is to allow people to die 176 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: detained as a cost of business rather than give them 177 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: proper medical care or take them to the hospital and 178 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 3: so forth. And they will pay out and they do 179 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: pay out millions to families. And I've seen this in action, 180 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 3: not that any of my clients died, but just the 181 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,560 Speaker 3: the gravity to which the health situation has to be 182 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: in order to have a prayer of getting them out. 183 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's very sad. Like I think one thing 184 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,199 Speaker 2: that I come back to now, like four years issh 185 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: into a Biden administration is that like on one of 186 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: his first dexutive orders was he's going to end for 187 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: profit prisons, and he never did shit about the ice detention. 188 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 2: Like right from the outset there was like these people 189 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 2: are do not have the same right to the people, 190 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: and we don't care about them as. 191 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 3: Much exactly exactly, and at this part well and at 192 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 3: this point too, it's like, given that he's done a 193 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 3: one eighty on anything that was pro immigrant or that 194 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 3: he said he was going to do. At the beginning, 195 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 3: you kind of start to wonder, is he just being 196 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 3: paid off by the same people, by a geogroup or 197 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: cor civic you know they they contribute millions of dollars 198 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: to whoever is running for president for good reason. So 199 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: it makes you wonder from that aspect as well. 200 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, like it. Certainly it was in his immigration reform 201 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: built right between increase the amount of ice, tension facility beds, 202 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: rush cells or whatever how you want to put that. 203 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: Hopefully this advert that we're about to pivot to here 204 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 2: is not for cour Civic Audio Group, but if it is, 205 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 2: fuck them. 206 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 3: Amen. 207 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: All right, we are back and we're going to talk 208 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: about this process advice relocating detainees. So this is something 209 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: that you've actually you've done interview about recently, right A. 210 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: Pece written about it. 211 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, I did two interviews about it, just because 212 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: it's an issue very close to my heart. For several reasons. 213 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 3: Detained work is very, very difficult, and just the fact 214 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 3: that few attorneys do it. I mean more have now 215 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 3: in light of the County program. But still it's it's 216 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 3: very emotionally draining too. You see, you literally see the 217 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 3: decline of the person in front of your eyes, both 218 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,040 Speaker 3: mentally and physically, and it's just it's take. 219 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: A lot out of you. 220 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 3: So these people need and deserve representation, and like I said, 221 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: are often detained unjustly and have strong cases that they 222 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: could actually win. So basically these people deserve representation and 223 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 3: need it the most. I mean, they're basically the most 224 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 3: marginalized out of any immigrant there is. So for ICE 225 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: to suddenly start transferring mass transferring, I might add, represented 226 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: detainees when they never have in the past, and they 227 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: haven't their own memo from twenty twelve that says they 228 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 3: shouldn't do this except for exigent circumstances, you know, like 229 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 3: some and they describe it as some medical issue or 230 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: something severe that requires it. It's just it's pretty obvious 231 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 3: that this is just direct retaliation or just designed to 232 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: get attorneys out of O Tai, because there's been more 233 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 3: of them in there, and we tend to make a stink, 234 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: and we tend to we tend to ask, hey, why 235 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: haven't you given a decision on my client's requests to 236 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: be released, and what's going on here? And we tend 237 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: to send a lot of emails advocating for our clients, 238 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 3: and we tend to be pains in the asses. And 239 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: before this happened, I noticed that ICE was just not 240 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 3: responding at all, whereas I had some relationship with the 241 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 3: ICE agents that are at the detention center. Just to 242 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 3: back up, every client is assigned to a deportation officer, 243 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: so you technically have somebody from ICE to communicate with, 244 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: and they're supposed to be in charge of the person detained, 245 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 3: you know, whether they're released or whether the treatment like 246 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 3: any they're their point of contact. And so even under 247 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: the Trump years, you'd be able to yeah, you might 248 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 3: have to follow up, but you'd be able to communicate 249 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: with a couple of them or some of them would do, 250 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 3: you know. And so I noticed in the past year 251 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 3: or two that this ISS just been kind of this 252 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: scorched earth approach where they just won't get back to 253 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: you or yeah. And and they're also not responding to 254 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 3: requests to have people released for just months and months 255 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 3: and months despite attorneys asking. And so it doesn't surprise 256 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: me that the timing of this and that they would 257 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 3: do this. Now that I'm reflecting back on this as 258 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 3: well as the county program. There's more attorneys at O 259 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: Tai Mesa now and so I mean essentially what happens 260 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: is if the person is transferred, which they've all been 261 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 3: transferred to places like I think Colorado is probably the 262 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 3: best option, but generally like Louisiana, Mississippi, things like that. 263 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 3: Texas is where my clients are currently. So these are 264 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 3: places where you can imagine there's a not a lot 265 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: of quality immigration attorneys and b not a high chance 266 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 3: of winning your case given the nature of the judges 267 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: that are there. 268 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, sod migrants articulate to me that they would not 269 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: want to be in the fifth circuit exactly. Come here 270 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: in the ninth circuit exactly. They're getting sent right back 271 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 2: to the fifth circuit there exactly. 272 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 3: And that's where my clients are now. And one judge 273 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 3: from O Tai decided who scolded me for suggesting that 274 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 3: this was even by design. He told me to act 275 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: more professional. He didn't say anything to the DHS attorney 276 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 3: about what his client was doing. It told me to 277 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 3: act more professional, changed venue for that client. I was 278 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: talking about the Kenyan client. And so we're now in 279 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 3: El Paso and thank God he has a strong case. 280 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 3: But even then I wonder because that's it's I mean, 281 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 3: if it's well known amongst migrants, you can imagine how badis. 282 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: If it's someone who knows nothing the US. 283 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, so it's just it's ludicrous that you have, 284 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: you know, people pretending like a judges, you know, just 285 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 3: like this had to happen when you have you know, 286 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 3: seventy percent of people you know, at least that's slightly dated, 287 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: but still I don't think the percentage is that, even 288 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 3: if it's fifty percent, why not unrepresented people? So to 289 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 3: do this, it's just a very obvious, like fuck you. 290 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 3: I mean, it's just there's no other way to to 291 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 3: justify it. 292 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like when that happened, right, so you have 293 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 2: this this gentleman from Kenya who's been he's been transferred 294 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: to Texas. That then you then have to travel to 295 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: Texas right for his hearings to talk to meet with him. 296 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's the whole that's the whole big battle. 297 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: And I have I have two different clients with two 298 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 3: different experiences. So so he I will either have to 299 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: appear via WebEx from my home. But then the judge 300 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 3: now has two people remotely because my client's not an 301 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 3: El Paso either. He's detained an Anson, Texas, which is 302 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 3: a blip about three hours away from Dallas or something. 303 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: So they and this is also by design, right, they 304 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: put all these attention centers in the middle of nowhere 305 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: because God forbid, the public sees that people seeking asylum 306 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: are in prisons. So anyways, so both of us are 307 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: going to be remote if that's the case. So, I mean, 308 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: I think there needs to be some personal contact and 309 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: maybe if I can have some communication with the DHS council. 310 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: I have to go to El Paso to give my 311 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: client the best chance of something, you know. Otherwise we're 312 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: both faces on this video with a fifth circuit judge, 313 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: you know. So the other flip side of the coin 314 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 3: was that I have another client who was transferred and 315 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: his trial is literally around the corner. It's next week. 316 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: So yeah, he was transferred four weeks before as individual hearings. 317 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 3: So I filed something scathing, saying judge, please don't consider 318 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 3: changing venue. This is you know, yeah, he's been detained 319 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 3: long enough. He's a twenty one year old by the way, 320 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 3: I mean, so DHS sheepishly filed something. So Council for 321 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 3: ICE filed something saying, okay, well we're asked, we agree 322 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: to that. We just asked that he could appear via 323 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: WebEx from ants in Texas. Also, right, so now he's 324 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: going to be a face on a screen. But I 325 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 3: can be at o tie. But still, I mean these 326 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: are all significant disadvantages. I mean, judges are evaluating immigrants 327 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: to see whether or not in their mind they're quote credible. 328 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: That means do they think they're lying or not. That's 329 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: very hard to do on a video because you're looking 330 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: for body language, you're looking for subtle things, you know. 331 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 3: And also it's just like the human aspect of it 332 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 3: is very important. You know, it's easier to deny asylum 333 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: to somebody on a screen that it is somebody sitting 334 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: in front of you. You know, there's so many there's 335 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: so many small aspects, and so ICE claims like, oh well, 336 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: well you just you can communicate, just fine, you know, 337 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: you can commune. We'll offer you calls and even video calls. 338 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,640 Speaker 3: And I'm like, okay, you don't understand anything about being 339 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 3: an attorney and what it means to to actually represent 340 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 3: clients at the person's final court hearing, they are asked 341 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: to swear to the contents of not only their asylum application, 342 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 3: but also all evidence they filed. And so if how 343 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: on earth can you show them and sit with them 344 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: to show them the evidence in person? You know that 345 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: you can only do and person. So it's just this 346 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 3: whole concept that you can that you can even adequately 347 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 3: lawyer remotely or over the phone. It's it's just it's 348 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 3: not possible. 349 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and especially for people who are less, you know, 350 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 2: like I spent less time on Zoom than we have 351 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: in the past four years. 352 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 3: Right exactly. And a lot of these people are are 353 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 3: are traumatized, you know, and are you like, as an attorney, 354 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 3: you need to build rapport with them, and you do 355 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 3: that by meeting with them in person, otherwise they might 356 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: not share vital information with you, you know. And and honestly, 357 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 3: the family of the twenty one year old mainly hired 358 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 3: me to be with him during his final hearing, and 359 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 3: so now I can't even do that, you know, just 360 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 3: to try to calm and you know, these people are petrified. 361 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 3: They've been through so much and now they have to 362 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: talk about all of it in front of this American 363 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 3: judge and a robe from a prison. Yeah, and I 364 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: have to be their only ally is not even with them. 365 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like there's understandably in a little country saying 366 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: something on the phone or on a call might be 367 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: a risk, right one hundred percent. You know it takes 368 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's not a risk doing it in 369 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 2: this country. Like all of these things stuck up against them. 370 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 3: I spend most of my time telling my clients like, hey, 371 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 3: what we discuss on the phone is attorney client privilege, 372 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: Like nobody could use this even if they try, and 373 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: it doesn't calm them down because it's just they think 374 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 3: they're being recorded, probably from their experiences in their home countries. 375 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: And frankly, I don't even know if we're being recorded. 376 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 3: I just know that it can't be you are it 377 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: can't be used, you know. I mean so, yeah, there's 378 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 3: so many things that go into representing somebody who's detained, 379 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 3: and I just knows all of this full well. So 380 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: this is a very deliberate choice, and it's something we 381 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 3: haven't seen before, like ever. I mean, everybody's pretty shocked 382 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: by this. 383 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, when did it begin? Sort of? 384 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: I want to say a couple months ago. But this 385 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 3: mass transfer they did that sparked us to talk to 386 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 3: the press and so forth was over Memorial Day weekend, 387 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 3: so they liked to do that too. I've noticed over 388 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: holiday weekends because last year they were trying to deport 389 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 3: a couple of my clients even though they had things pending, 390 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 3: and they try to do it over the weekend and 391 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 3: so on purpose, right, and so the client's families would 392 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 3: call and be like, hey, he's being printed, like processed 393 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: for being deported, and so we immediately Yeah, I had 394 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 3: to do this twice a year ago, so I had 395 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: to send two emails basically documenting and ceaseeing the ice 396 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,680 Speaker 3: attorney being like, Hi, they have a pending X y 397 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,719 Speaker 3: Z case. It is unlawful to stop what you're doing immediately. 398 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 3: But like, had we not been notified over the weekend 399 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: and sent that email, they would have been deported despite 400 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 3: having a kid. So this is the type of stuff 401 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 3: that regularly happens. But it's very ballsy to me to transfer, 402 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: Like I think it was probably like one hundred people 403 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 3: or hundreds or something, you know, I mean over a 404 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 3: Memorial Day weekend, you know. And of course, oh, their 405 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 3: memo by the way also says they're supposed to notify 406 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 3: the attorneys, you know. I mean I heard from frantic 407 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: family members who are like, why the fuck am I 408 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 3: getting a call from ants in Texas? 409 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 2: Oh? 410 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 3: Oh, and this is rich. You'll appreciate this. It wasn't 411 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 3: even one transfer. They first went to Eden, Texas, which 412 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 3: is another lovely place in Texas. And then a week 413 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 3: later we're moved to this place called blue Bonnet because 414 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 3: they have to give them pretty names, right, detention facility 415 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 3: at Antsen. Yeah, and so I had arranged a legal 416 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: call at the first attention facility and then had to 417 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 3: like do it all, do this process all over again, 418 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 3: and they ask you for everything but like your DNA 419 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 3: in order to prove that you're their attorney, you know, 420 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 3: to get this legal call. I mean I spent two 421 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: weeks just try to figure out where my client was. 422 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 3: And these are two Imagine this is sucked up like 423 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 3: all my time since Memorial Day. I mean there's other clients, 424 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: you know, I've I've been struggling to get to their cases. 425 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 3: Like thankfully I haven't had too many deadlines, but I 426 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 3: mean it's it's been brutal. 427 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, that secks totally brutal, pointing we have the brutal 428 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: oligation to transfer to ads for a second time. So 429 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: we're going to do that and then we're going to 430 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: come back. All right, we're back. So we've heard about 431 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: how ice A transferring people across two different different parts 432 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: of the United States. What I wanted to talk about 433 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: now was another recent development, which was Joe Biden's executive order, 434 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 2: not the very recent one on parole in place. People 435 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 2: have seen that, but it's one quote unquote closing the border. 436 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 2: Can you explain, we haven't really seen that impact on 437 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 2: the ground yet, but can you explain these people are 438 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 2: supposed to get essentially a document forbidding them from re 439 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: entering for five years. 440 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: Correct, And it's not just any documents. Yes, it's the 441 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 3: worst document. So it is an expedited or moval, which 442 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 3: is a fancy term for a deportation order that when 443 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 3: issued by Border Patrol CVP, carries with it a five 444 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 3: year bar, and so that means you're not admissible in 445 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 3: any way, shape or form to the United States, and 446 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 3: if you try to re enter during that time period 447 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 3: or even at any time irregularly, you will then be 448 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: put in what's called withholding only proceedings, and that essentially 449 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 3: means you were no longer eligible for anything, not even asylum, 450 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 3: just a very very difficult form of asylum which is 451 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 3: called withholding or protection of the Convention, it's torture, which 452 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 3: is also very difficult to win. So that those are 453 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: the two things you're stuck fighting. And then you are 454 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: also mandatory attention, so there's no possibility of you getting 455 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: out unless you're in your case, which is of course 456 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: very very difficult. So I can I haven't seen this 457 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 3: play out, you know, like we're saying it's relatively new 458 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: and yeah, but I can imagine based on my experience 459 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: and based on what all of us know, that like, 460 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,919 Speaker 3: people aren't gonna have any idea what this is, and 461 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: they're gonna and plus there's desperation and other fact. I mean, 462 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: they just came through the dairy end. They're not gonna 463 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 3: let a piece of paper stop them, you know. So 464 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 3: I mean, so these people are probably going to turn 465 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 3: around and try again and end up being in this 466 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: withholding only posture, which means they're now really screwed in 467 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: terms of having a way difficult time winning any sort 468 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 3: of relief, and definitely detained like they will not be released. 469 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 3: I've had clients on occasion like every blue Moon be released, 470 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 3: but the way I acting these days, I don't think 471 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: it'll happen. So one of the thoughts I had is 472 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 3: this justifying additional detention centers if we're now having going 473 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: to have probably more of those types of people. But 474 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 3: it just in general, I don't see there being a 475 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: shortage of people they can detain, So I think. 476 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think they Yeah. I don't think that 477 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: we have an option in November to vote for a 478 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 2: person who isn't going to build more prisons. 479 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 3: For refugees one hundred percent one hundred percent, which is 480 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,959 Speaker 3: which is why. And I think that's something very you know, 481 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: it can be you can take it and be like, Okay, 482 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 3: I'm so depressed, you know, blah blah. There's nobody to 483 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: vote for, like, you know, because basically Biden has done, 484 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 3: you know, gravitated so far to the right. 485 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 2: I called all the stuff that they waved it up 486 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty, sod Trump will do this. 487 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 3: Biden has stay exactly right, and so I don't even 488 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: know that I called him Trump light, but I don't 489 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 3: even know if he's Trump Light anymore. He's like more 490 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 3: like Trump medium or almost there, you know. 491 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: So less racist speeches. 492 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 3: Exactly, Trump minus the racist spech is exactly. So it's 493 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 3: just I mean, so the way to look at this 494 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 3: is that like literally we are their only hope. I mean, 495 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: the government here is not only like not only gonna 496 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 3: not save them from anything. They're in creating all these situations, 497 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 3: putting them in more peril. So it really behooves us 498 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 3: to find all the different grassroots organizations, and there's there's 499 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 3: so many of them that we can help and donate 500 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 3: involundar teer our time too, because that's literally all these 501 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: people have. 502 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about that a bit. Because something 503 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: both you and I do as we participate in water drops, 504 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: in in migrant aid of various kinds, welcome stations of 505 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 2: the thing we've been doing recently. You know, you and 506 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: I were out Now I'm just going to collapses on itself, 507 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: but we were out in a place near the border. 508 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 2: We were there when we met the two Mauritanian dudes. 509 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 2: You carried the Chinese exactly. Yeah, Yeah, that was so beautiful, right, Yea, 510 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 2: it was such a wonderful, Like obviously it's pretty bleak 511 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 2: that the guys aren't able to use one of his 512 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: legs properly. And yeah, therefore two people who don't and 513 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: share a single word with him had to carry him. 514 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: And these two Mauritanian men we met, I'll just rewind 515 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: to tell the whole story. Yeah, we were driving down 516 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 2: the road and we kept meeting groups of Mauritanian refugees 517 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 2: coming north and we were able to help them by 518 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: giving them water in. 519 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: The quick interruption. By the way, I looked up Mauritanian 520 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 3: and unsurprisingly they have female general emulation, child labor and 521 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: basically any like it's just horrific capital punishments. 522 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, gay people, right, exactly. Yeah, So these people, very 523 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 2: very nice, just wanted mostly a bottle of water, and 524 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: you know how far tw weekend surrounded to border withtrol 525 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: which is what they intend to do. And they kept 526 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: saying that there's a guy with a broken leg and 527 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: we were like, oh shit, but that's potentially fatal in 528 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: this place that we're at. They just keep saying, go 529 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: down the road, you'll see him. So we keep going 530 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: down the road and we come around the corner and 531 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: there's two guys sort of eat and then a third 532 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: guy in the middle of them with his hands over 533 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 2: both their shoulders, right, and they're sort of humping him 534 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 2: down the road. And it turns out that this Chinese 535 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: man only speaking Mandarin, had he had like a brace 536 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: or like a like an external fixation on his leg, 537 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 2: like like bolts through his leg and couldn't walk. And 538 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 2: these dudes have been carrying him for two days and 539 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 2: they couldn't she speak the same language like they didn't 540 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 2: they weren't able to communicate, and it was the most 541 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: humane thing, and it made me just so ashamed that 542 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 2: like these people, in a time of desperation for themselves, 543 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 2: have taken the risk to help other people. And then 544 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 2: here's our government just being like, screw you. If you 545 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 2: don't belong here, we're going to put you straight in 546 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: prison or especially these these are mostly Muslim African men 547 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: from Mauritania right there. Generally sort of that that will 548 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,159 Speaker 2: be one of the more persecuted demographics. And perhaps you 549 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: can talk about like how you got into participating in 550 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: water drops and how other people could do so, or 551 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 2: any any form of a direct mutual aid, I suppose 552 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: says like advocacy. 553 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think I think the 554 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 3: main thing to take away is the it it's easier 555 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 3: to help or participate then one would think, you know, 556 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 3: I think you look at this issue of immigration and 557 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 3: it's so overwhelming right now, and it can be a 558 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 3: bit like, oh God, you know, what can I possibly do? 559 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 3: Or you know, and even if i'm you know, what 560 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: difference am I making? 561 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: You know? 562 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: And it's just like I have the same struggles working 563 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 3: as you know, an immigration attorney, because you're just like God, 564 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 3: you see just the vast need and you know, you 565 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 3: focus on the person in front of you, you know, 566 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 3: and not to sound cheesy, but that's the life you 567 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: can affect. And so we're and all of us collectively 568 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 3: have an impact more than we know, you know. So 569 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: I think that's just the first thing to share. So 570 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 3: don't don't feel defeated and think that. Remember that if 571 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 3: you have twenty extra bucks a month to spare, for example, 572 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 3: like if you donate that to supplies for migrants, then 573 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: that literally allows the work of water dropping to continue. 574 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: And you know, that's the other side of the coin. 575 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,479 Speaker 3: If we can go out all we want, but if 576 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 3: we don't have money or supplies to drop, then nothing 577 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 3: gets done, you know. So if you live in any 578 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: part of the country, really you can find a reputable organization, 579 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: you know, or BRC is a collective. I volunteer with 580 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 3: Borderlands Relief Collective and every cent goes directly to the 581 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 3: supplies that we drop, and that's a very huge, tangible 582 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 3: source of help. All of our supplies are consumed, as 583 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: you know, within a week or so, we think, you know. 584 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 3: So it's just there's so many different ways to to participate. 585 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 3: There's organizations that allow you to talk to detained immigrants, 586 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 3: you know, like Freedom for Immigrants or you know, there's 587 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 3: different ways you can help if you want to communicate 588 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 3: with them. There's also Detention Resistance who works with the 589 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: people mainly in No Taimesa to help just provide even 590 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: a source of support, just someone a human being to 591 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: talk to, who can help them with little things like 592 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 3: writing letters or putting money in their account to be 593 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: able to contact family members. I say little things, but 594 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 3: those things are huge because if you can imagine being 595 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 3: an immigrant in another country and you know somebody in 596 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: that and you're in a prison, but somebody in that 597 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 3: country or a few people are are showing you love. 598 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day, whether you're 599 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 3: officially deported or when asylum or whatever, those are the 600 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 3: things that stick with people because I know that they're 601 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 3: going to remember that probably for the rest of their lives. 602 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's the least we can need 603 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: to be welcoming with exactly exactly. 604 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: That's why the welcome stations that we do are so 605 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 3: beautiful too, right, because it's just I mean what we 606 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: were doing that day when we met those two people 607 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 3: or the three people rather, and it's just like they 608 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 3: get a help a loving, helpful person as their first 609 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 3: exposure to the United States. And then, you know, I said, 610 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: instead of border patrol which makes them take off their 611 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 3: shoelaces and treats them you. 612 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, like their criminals. 613 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly. 614 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's nice like I've exchanged for nubers with 615 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 2: those people and they're like, oh, you're the first American 616 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: they met. You'll always be like my first American friend, 617 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 2: someone said the other day. And though that was really sweet. 618 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 3: It's a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing. I think 619 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: about that all the time with my clients. You know, 620 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 3: I'm just like, God, I feel so fortunate to meet 621 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: all these people, you know, from different countries. It's just 622 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 3: and I'm embarrassed to say that I have to usually 623 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 3: google where the country is, you know what I mean, 624 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 3: it's awful. I don't know what our geography education was, 625 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 3: but let's just say I didn't get much of it. 626 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: But you know, just where am I going to meet 627 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: people from Belize, from Kenya, from Trinidad, from Chad, you know, 628 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 3: and be able to really share life with them to 629 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 3: a certain extent or you know, I know their most 630 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 3: vulnerable and awful experiences. I know their family, you know, 631 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: or about their families and about them, and it's a 632 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 3: really beautiful thing. So it's just, you know, unfortunate. So 633 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: to have to interact with them and in a prison 634 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 3: is just you know, it's just it's just ridiculous, you know. 635 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: But so that's that why those welcome tables are I 636 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: think so just pure and precious because at that moment 637 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: there's no bullshit involved yet, there's no US government. It's 638 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 3: just humans interacting with humans. 639 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it totally is really nice. It's one of the 640 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 2: better things that I like to do. And yeah, if 641 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: you if you replaced where you can do it, you 642 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 2: should do it. If you're not, it will be great 643 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: if you get in your money. I am going to 644 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: read as we finish up a plug for the Sidewalk 645 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 2: School Matamortos and by Noosa. I just want to like 646 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: they are in desperate needed money right now. They do 647 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: amazing work with people on both sides of the border. 648 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: I've been on a panel with Felicia for UCLA that 649 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: you can find if you're good at googling things. It's 650 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 2: on YouTube. It's the Allied Community Arts Brigade. UCLA hosted 651 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: a panel, so if you if you search that and 652 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: Border panel, I'm sure you'll find it. And if you 653 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 2: want to know more about the Sidewalk School, I recommend it. 654 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 2: And we're joined there by people from Border Kindness and 655 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: Alo Torolado, which are both excellent organizations working on the 656 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 2: boarder here. But the Sidewalk School are working with refugees 657 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: and asigum seekers on both sides of the border in 658 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: Matamortos and Brayosa, so in Texas, and they definitely need 659 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: your money. If you would like to support them, you 660 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: can go to gofund dot me slash zero six, CDC 661 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 2: seventy six and we'll include that in the notes of 662 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: this podcast as well. Kasein, thank you so much for 663 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 2: your time. We really appreciate it. 664 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 3: Thank you, James, thank you. 665 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 666 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 667 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the 668 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 669 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 670 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.