WEBVTT - Rise Above with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman (Interviewed by Dr. Jonathan Haidt) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:04.560 Well, the word trauma is just now means everything every 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.440 in so there is something in the in the zeitgeist. 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:10.920 There's definitely something in the zeitgeist that is making us 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:16.480 more conscious of trauma. And and and the body keeps 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:19.400 the score is still on the New York Times bestseller list. 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:24.439 So one could argue, in a nuanced fashion, as we 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:26.880 like to do, that that's not all, that's not entirely 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.320 a bad thing, that that it's good that we are 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:37.360 becoming more aware of the extent to which really challenging 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.840 experiences in our lives can play a role in who 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:49.040 we are today. Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:52.720 Today the table is turned and I am interviewed by 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.880 my friend and colleague, doctor Jonathan White about my new 0:00:55.880 --> 0:01:00.360 book Rise Above Overcome a victim mindset, Empower yourself and 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.880 realize your full potential. Does life feel smaller than it 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.200 used to? Does it seem that the people around you 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:09.120 have taken a step back from doing hard things, preferring 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.280 to stay in their comfort zone. In the era of 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.440 Tiktakis therapy, it's tempting to see ourselves as damaged and powerless, 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:19.959 defined by our past traumas our emotions and the struggles 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.800 we face. But it's more important than ever to rise 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.280 above the limiting beliefs and widespread anxiety that puts us 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:30.480 in boxes, lowers our expectations, and holds us back. In 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:33.839 my new book, which was just released yesterday, April twenty second, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.240 I unpact the dangerous myths and misleading buzzwords swirling around 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.319 the public imagination, revealing the truth about managing our emotions, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.720 the double edged sword of self esteem, the surprising gifts 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.920 of sensitivity, and ultimately, the power each of us has 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.920 to overcome challenges and to shape the course of our 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.640 own lives. In this episode, we discuss actionable solutions to 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:59.000 own your life and reach your full potential. So, without 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.840 further ado, bring you myself. Doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.919 Okay, Scott Barry Kaufman, also known as Okay, how are you? 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:09.600 And where are you? 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.280 I'm good, Jonathan, I'm good. I'm the last lap here 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.840 in California, in Los Angeles. I'm moving to New York, 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.119 going to be teaching full time. 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:21.760 Yes, how exciting. Let's hope Columbia is still there when 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:22.240 you arrive. 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:28.639 That boy, your mouth to God's ears. Crazy times We're 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:30.880 living in very crazy times, and I think the best 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:33.480 we can do is show up according to our values. 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:37.000 You know, that's right, That's right. How are you dealing 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:39.799 with it? Do you? What's your attitude towards all of 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.400 the craziness and insanity hitting the country and higher ed. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.160 You know, I think it is very much in line 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:48.640 with what I just said about showing it. Just the 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.560 best you can do is show up and like decide 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:53.200 how do you want to show up in this world? 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:56.680 You know, like get very clear on that. I like 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.320 to lead with a term I use in my new book, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.920 Rise Above, which thank you for interviewing me today about. 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:05.640 There's a term I use called honest love. I had 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.440 felt as though two extremes have not really sit well 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.720 with my own way of being and my own presence. 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.440 On the one end, you see a lot of coddling. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.600 I think you know you've written something about that as 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:20.480 an understatement. Yeah, yeah, and in that and I don't 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.160 the coddling way of dealing with the world doesn't seem 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.639 to uh didn't resonate with me. But then the other extreme, 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.320 that pull yourself up by the boots by the bootstraps mentality, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.120 that ignores contact that ignores individual differences. That didn't really 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.280 suit me either, So I propose a new term which 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.880 just suits is what I feel like is resonates with 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:44.720 the way I the tone I wanted to set for 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.000 this book, and and also how I try to show 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.440 up in the world. Honest love and honest has two parts. 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:55.600 The love part is acknowledging the real felt experience of 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.360 someone else, you know, acknowledging where they're at. But the 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:01.680 that's the love part. But I don't want to stop there. 0:04:01.760 --> 0:04:04.320 I need I need to be honest or how I 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:09.560 go crazy. The honest part is talking honestly and openly 0:04:09.640 --> 0:04:12.480 about what is as a roote to what could be. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:14.360 Well, Scott, I think that's beautiful the way you put that, 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.240 because it's interesting you and I we come from sort 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:19.920 of different perspectives, we come to a commonplace. A quote 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.039 that I keep close by is from Joseph Campbell. He says, 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.200 participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world. We cannot 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.880 cure the world of sorrows, but we can choose to 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.560 live in joy. The warriors approach is to say yes 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.400 to life, yea to it all, And so a similar 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.839 sort of attitude of you know, however, crazy things get, 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.200 that's just the world, and we shouldn't go along with 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.760 I shouldn't let it sweep us away. We should take control. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:48.480 We should have an empowered mindset. I say, what's they 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.080 you Scott? Okay? And this turns us to your to 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:57.600 your book that Rise Above. So that's yeah. Yeah. I 0:04:57.920 --> 0:04:59.559 was gonna say I should have'b blazed it on my forehead, 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.719 but then I would be able to do it backward. 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:07.560 Yeah tattoo m Yeah. So okay. So let's so let's 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.679 talk about your your your wonderful new book Rise Above. 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.480 Overcome a victim mindset, empower yourself and realize your full potential. 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.000 So let's start at the beginning here. You and I 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.720 first met when I think as you were post talk 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:23.560 or you were were you were you were studying creativity 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.440 and you were hosting YEA and you were hosting a 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.920 session with like me and Marty Seligman a few others 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:34.960 on like on creativity. This was like back, it's just 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:37.680 like two thousand. I don't even remember when you don't. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.240 Feel like lifego no, no, fifteen, It wasn't that long ago. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.560 Twenty sixteen, fifteen fourteen, maybe maybe fourteen fifteen, yeah. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.839 Okay, twenty fifteen, fourteen, yeah, yeah, So how do you 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:50.440 how do you get from just telling you know, just 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:52.880 how do you get from being, you know, an expert 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:55.560 on creativity and intelligence? You also writing intelligence? How do 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.479 you get from that to the current book? 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.279 So I've always been and it's a very fair and 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.560 good question. I've always been interested in human potential more broadly, 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.640 you know, what does it take to to reach your 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:09.840 goals in life? What does it take to self actualize? 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:15.480 To to you, I've always been a big daydreamer and 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.640 and and so that's been a thread running through my 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:20.760 whole life, even as a kid when the school system 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.160 didn't really have high expectations of me because I had 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.719 some warning disabilities that I have overcome at this point. 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:31.000 But I always just really pondered these kinds of questions. 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.520 Was it take to kind of overcome our circumstances? And 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.320 a lot of ways, I feel like everything led up 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:38.440 to this book. So I'll explain that this book is 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:40.960 like I felt like it was fate fates, you know, 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.000 when I was in as my I tell my personal 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:47.120 story in this book. But long story short, there was 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:49.800 this moment. I was kept in special education till ninth 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.080 grade to high school, and there was this moment where 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.279 this teacher took me aside, who had never seen me before, 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:57.560 this special ed teacher, and she said, you know, what 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.000 are you What are you still doing here? And I realized, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:03.960 is that that's just that one question. It just empowered 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.120 me to I thought of my head, Yeah, what am 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.200 I doing here? And it just really a surge went 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.920 through me. And I also had this realization in that moment, 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.640 and it became so crystal clear to me that no 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.720 one is coming to save me, you know that that 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:23.440 if I want to demonstrate my potential to the school system, 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.320 to the world, you know, I had to do it myself. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.240 And I took myself out of special education, and I 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.840 became the first kid in my school system for the 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.920 special ed kid himself took himself out, and I said, 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:38.760 I want to I want to see what I'm capable of. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.280 And so a lot of the roots were there, Jonathan, 0:07:41.440 --> 0:07:43.800 you know, and I thought when I started my career, 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:45.880 I thought that the way to study human intentional was 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.600 through studying intelligence and changing the way that we measure 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.560 intelligence in our school system, and that only took me 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:52.800 so far, you know. 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.000 Oh how interesting In other words, in other words, sort 0:07:56.000 --> 0:08:00.920 of over focus on or narrow conceptualization of intelligence was 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.560 part of what was holding you back. And then in 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.280 the current book, you're going beyond that. You're looking at 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.680 a certain mindset, a certain way of thinking about the 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:10.720 world is what's holding a lot of people back, and 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:12.600 you're trying to help people break out. 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.160 You nailed it. And then there was the creativity phase 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.440 of my life too. I thought that was the thing 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.080 to unlock human potential, was the human imagination. I still 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:23.040 think it's a big I still think all these things 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.080 are important, you know, how we measure intelligence, how we 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.000 use our imagination to think of a better future. But 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.160 there was some research I was conducting over the past 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.400 ten years that just kept I kept being striking data 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:38.000 and I just I didn't think that it was the 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.800 main part of my research, but it got so so 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:42.880 much data on it that I just couldn't ignore it anymore. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:47.160 And that's the research I did on vulnerable narcissism. And yeah, 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.240 so that's the link into all this. That's the link 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:49.640 into all this. 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:51.880 Okay, that's the missing link here. 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:54.560 Yeah, that's the missing bunch, just explain. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:55.960 I mean, I guess you know a lot of listeners. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:57.240 I'm sure I've heard you talk about it, But just 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.280 give us the thumbnail sketch of the vulnerable narcissism. What 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.640 is it? And can they really be cured? How do 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:05.439 people overcome that? 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.280 There's different forms of narcissism that are associated with different 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.760 forms of entitlement. Entitlement is a thread that runs through 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.120 all forms of narcissism. That's psychologists trying to converge them. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.000 That's the thing that's central to all forms. But when 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.080 you have grandiose narcissism, you have this grandiose based entitlement, 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.920 which is, I'm entitled to special privileges because I'm inherently 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.280 superior to others. I was born this way, I was 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:31.480 born better than others. But with vulnerable narcissism, and I 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:34.800 find it very fascinating. This different form of entitlement, called 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.199 vulnerable based entitlement kept cropping up, which is, I'm entitled 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:43.240 to special privileges because I've suffered or I'm fragile, so therefore, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.280 you know I deserve these special privileges in a generalized way. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.520 We're not talking about a single instance We're not talking 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.520 about real victimization, where you are rightly should be speaking 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.959 up and saying something was unjust or unfair. We're talking 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.280 about a personality trait. We're talking about it, or even 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.760 a generalized mindset that applies to almost everything in your life. 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.679 From waiting in Starbucks. You know, I deserve you know 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.760 this was a long line, but I deserve my drink 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.680 first because I bet I have a longer day than 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:11.280 everyone else in this line. You know that, you know 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.840 that kind of thinking, and and it kept cropping up 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.200 over and over again that this was the biggest inhibitor 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:20.040 to self actualization. More than anything else I had studied 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.560 in my career, more than IQ, more than more than 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.360 creativity intelligence. I found this way of thinking about your 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.120 life and the world was the biggest thing holding you 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.160 back in your life for reaching your goals and dreams. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:38.000 Okay, so so when but when it's called vulnerable narcissism? 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.120 So narcissism is a personality disorder, right? Or is it 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.440 just like a trait on which some people try low? 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:49.080 Oh yeah, we published a paper, A personality Perspective on narcissism. 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.839 Yeah, okay, so okay, so let's go into the themes 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:57.719 of the book then because ish, well, okay, let's go 0:10:57.760 --> 0:10:59.600 into the themes of the book. So the book starts 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:02.480 part one, don't be a victim, and you go through 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:04.600 don't be a victim to your past, your emotions, your 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:09.439 cogniti distortion, self esteem. So just situate us here, what 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.240 is the what is the problem that you're seeing out 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.319 in the world, What is the you know what? Who 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.480 are the people who you think are limiting themselves by 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.000 embracing this victimhood? And then let's talk about the different 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:21.040 kinds of victimhood. 0:11:21.640 --> 0:11:24.319 Yeah. Great, I think this is a book for everyone. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.920 So I make very clear that that all these traits 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.600 and ways of thinking are in a continuum that are 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.439 part of being human as well. Obviously from a trait perspective, 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.960 there are some people that reliably, on average, tend to 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:39.839 engage in these things more. But I want all of 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.520 us to look within. And that was the biggest challenge 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:46.560 of this book. Jonathan. You don't see many self help books. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.000 You don't see many self help books that say maybe 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:53.400 the problem is partly you. You don't see that, right, the 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.640 ones that sell well, or the ones that say it's 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:58.360 not you. You it's not you, it's your it's your 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:02.400 ex husband's narcissistic ex husband's fault, or it's you're it's 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:05.240 the Jews or whatever you like, whatever, who do we 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.400 want to blame? You know? Today? And and I really 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:12.640 want us to change our cultural consciousness away from feeling 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.840 the need to knee jerk blame a person or an 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:19.720 entire group of people on all your problems, and shift 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.600 our societal thinking to how are we showing up in 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:27.720 the world, How are we uh living by our own purpose, 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.439 our own values, and not be consumed by the need 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:40.520 for resentment, for uh, for uh hostility, for uh, for 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.320 this kind of victim mindset that I talk about. 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.120 Okay, and have you do you believe that this has 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:50.120 been increasing? I mean, as of course this has always 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.240 been there. There've always been people like this and doing this. 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.680 But just just do you think that either American culture 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.600 or Western culture, or just as a product of getting 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:03.520 wealthier and you know, societies get wealthy and more comfort focused, 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.840 just historically, do you think we're facing an increase in 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:08.600 this or is this a sort of a steady state 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:10.400 and you're trying to help people get over. 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.240 So the two most popular words most searched for words 0:13:14.240 --> 0:13:19.080 in the past couple of years have been trauma and narcissism. 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:22.000 What what do you mean? That's what Narcissism is one 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:23.880 of the most searched for words. 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:29.160 Yes, usually in this the context of you know this 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:31.880 other person, you know, why are there so many narcissists 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.760 around me? You know? Not? 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:33.840 Not? 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.280 What can I do? What can I do about narcissists 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.560 in my life? You know? And and the word trauma 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.440 has has ballooned in importance and. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:45.240 In I've been seeing that everywhere. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.000 And the word you know, talk about concept creep, concept creep, well, 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:52.600 the word well, the word trauma is just now means everything. 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:58.599 Every So there is something in the in the zeitgeist. 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:01.959 There's definitely something that's like I S that is making 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:07.800 us more conscious of trauma. And the body keeps. The 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.640 score is still on the New York Times bestseller list. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:15.680 So one could argue, in a nuanced fashion, as we 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:18.160 like to do, that that's not all, that's not entirely 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:22.560 a bad thing, that that it's good that we are 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:28.600 becoming more aware of the extent to which really challenging 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.080 experiences in our lives can play a role in who 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:37.880 we are today, and I'm a fan of certain forms 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.240 of therapy, and I think that a lot of people, 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:44.000 and I'm a fan of healing. So that's the one hand, 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:48.400 But on the other hand, something is different about what 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:53.000 we reward in our culture and what we promote. I 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.680 am desperately in this book trying to argue that we 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:02.960 need to think about the importance of overcoming trauma, not 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:07.400 just staying and talking about trauma your whole life. There's 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.720 a really much more empowering way about go about this, 0:15:09.800 --> 0:15:10.120 I think. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:16.560 Okay, so just just lay it atter us. I have 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:18.320 not read The Body Keeps the Square. I don't know 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.360 what that theory is, but I see references to it everywhere. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.680 And of course nowadays, you know, I'm always looking at 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.960 how my book sales are doing and comparing it to others. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:31.360 But tell us, like, so, what is the what is 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.320 the way that this this cultural movement, this new increase 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:38.760 to focus on trauma, trauma informed education, trauma informed counseling, 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:42.600 trauma informed everything. What is the way that they're saying 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.360 people should deal with bad things that have happened to 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.400 them more with life in general, and then contrast yours 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:48.920 with that. 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.000 This this gets to the crux crux of it. And 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:56.760 you know, I don't want to denigrate those with trauma 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:01.040 informed therapy or those went through that lens because they 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.720 are a lot of them are very, very compassionate people 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.840 that really truly want to help people who have gone 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:12.120 through terrible things in their lives heal. But like for instance, 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.000 Bessel vander Kock who wrote The Body keeps the Score, 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:20.360 he has this way of outsourcing it all to trauma. 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:22.840 So everything is, you know, it's stored in the body. 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:24.680 The things that the assaults of the of the world 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:28.080 that have happened outside of us are stored in our body. 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.520 And he posits a particular type of memory that is 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.200 not in the brain but in the body, that remembers 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:42.200 these traumas. And that's not how it works. That's not 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.600 how it works. I mean, memories as we typically think 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:47.800 of them in the cognitove science literature can only be 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:52.720 in the brain. There are certainly, you know I talk 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:55.480 about survival. Stress is a real thing. Certainly, certain things 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:59.720 can register in our nervous system and can cause us 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:06.240 to be very uncomfortable and and painful, especially when similar 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:10.440 things arise. However, the problem with it. And this is 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.520 the question you asked me, is that it lacks a 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.080 lot of nuance here. It lacks it for first of all, 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:21.119 it ignores pre existing individual differences. It ignores the role 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.560 of genes almost completely, as though genes don't make us 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:28.119 who we are at all today, as though genes don't 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.560 color the way we see the world at all. Like, 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.120 for instance, if you have the genes that code for 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:39.320 the personality trait neuroticism, it's going to really fundamentally give you, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.720 give you a different view of your life experiences than 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:47.800 someone who is very, very emotionally stable. And and I 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:50.320 say this in the spirit of honest love, you know, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:53.160 I say it's in the spirit of really peering as 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.800 strongly as possible to the extent to which, yes, terrible 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:58.760 things happen to us, But what are how what are 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.199 our own mindsets and of reacting to the environment that 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.600 may be holding us back and to just in my view, 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.720 the body keeps the score is one big book of 0:18:10.720 --> 0:18:14.240 a victim mindset about your life experiences. It's it's all 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.720 the world's fault. It's stored in your body. And you 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.480 just to heal, You just need to somehow make contact 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:19.679 with that. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.080 Okay, let's work through the case, you know, work the 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.080 case of someone whose parents were violent towards them and 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.119 they had a terrible that some terrible things happen in 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.040 their childhood. On the adverse child experienced scale, they've had 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:37.639 in a number of those events happen to them. How so, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.560 how what would they actually do if they come to 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.160 see doctor Scott Barry Kaufman, or at least if they 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:48.080 read if they read Rise Above, what exactly should they 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.040 should they do to break out of that, to to 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:52.240 change their thinking? 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:56.840 Okay, so my colleague a Columbia Georgia Banano, has has 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.960 shown that people are a lot more resilient than we 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.200 give them credit for, even under the worst kinds of circumstances. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.520 Most people are actually resilient. And then you of you 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.920 sometimes actually dare I say, see post traumatic growth, which 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.000 is something else I bring up in the book. So 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.520 even just pointing that out changes the narrative, you know, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.600 to someone they you know, going from this mindset of 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.399 it's kind of hopeless. I can't even access it, you know, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.560 like there's not a lot cognitively I can do here. 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.600 You know, it's stored in my body. I think is disempowering. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:36.240 So even just like educating people that you have a 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.679 lot more resilient to within you than you realize. And 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.400 then going through the various things that I go through 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.320 in my book of don't be a victim to various 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.320 things within your own self. That's the spin on this situation. 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.679 Part one. Are all the things that we don't have 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.679 to be a victim to that are happening inside ourselves. 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:57.000 Not blaming the outside world, but for instance, don't be 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.040 a victim to your cognitive distortions. I know this is 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:01.240 one that both of us are very interested in. And 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:02.960 what I mean by that is, you are a victim 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.359 to your cognitive distortions when you take those things at 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:09.120 face value, right at your catastrophizing you're black and white 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:14.159 thinking your I talk about inferring malevolent intentions on neutral stimuli. 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:17.320 That's a big one. That's a big one. Don't you're 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:19.360 a victim to it if you take all of that seriously. 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:21.119 And then I talk about don't be a victim to 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.240 your emotions. So we are a victim to our emotions 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:26.560 when we don't realize that we don't have to act 0:20:26.680 --> 0:20:29.639 or believe everything that our emotions are telling us we 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.679 are allowed to create, We're allowed to do some practices 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.399 that create a bit of a distance between our emotions 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.640 and our cognitive thoughts, so we can meditate on them. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.199 We can reflect on whether or not there is a 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:42.720 lot there is value there. How do we want to 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.719 reframe them? There is so much we can do to 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:48.200 not be a victim to ourselves. And that's the spin 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.320 of this book, Jonathan. I hope that makes sense. That's 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.040 the spin here because we often talk about and everyone's 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:57.280 so focused on pointing the finger outside themselves to uh 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.720 get rid of their uncomfortable emotions. But I think it's 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.200 I actually think it's more empowering. This is the case 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:05.240 I make in the book. I think that it's actually 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.439 more empowering to realize there's so many things you can 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:10.440 change with yourself. Let me read a Joan Rivers quote 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:14.359 that opens up the whole book. She says, Listen, I 0:21:14.440 --> 0:21:16.760 wish I could tell you it gets better, but it 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.639 doesn't get better. You get better. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:24.240 Hmm right, right. All of this reminds me, so I'm 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.400 I think you know what humanistic psychology is for you, 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.480 Stoic philosophy or stoic writings are are for me as 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.600 sort of a perspective that we come back and they're 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:34.920 very compatible. So as you were talking, I just looked 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:38.760 up some of my favorite Stowe quotations. Here's Marcus Aurelius 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:43.080