WEBVTT - Ep 363: For The Culture ft. Marcus Collins 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:14.280 Hey, hey, hey, we're back. We're black, weird, brown, but 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:16.440 extra brown because Mandy's here. You know, Mandy's only half 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:21.120 brown anyway. Ambition ambition and this should this should ambition. 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:26.000 No shade to you, Mandy, but you now welcome back 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.080 to brown ambition. I am cutting up, which means that 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:32.760 Mandra is not here. She might be having her baby, 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:34.960 she might not. Who knows, Mandy. Mandy might be changing 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:36.440 the oil on her car. Y'all know how Mandy do? 0:00:36.600 --> 0:00:39.360 She don't see, she don't rest. But baby number two 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:42.280 is on his way. And so that means Auntie Tiffany 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.960 is in the stew, but not by herself. I'm in 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.040 the stew with a guest today. Let me introduce this. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.480 I was looking at this guest like a little mini Bayer. 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:53.720 I was like, well, day, I'm coming to the room. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:01:00.279 So our new guest today has a book called for 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:05.720 the Culture. It's been endorsed by the CEO of McDonald's, Boom, Reddit, Boom, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.600 Delta Boom, Home Depot Boom, and many more major companies. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:14.800 But bigger than that, y'all. He's run social media strategy 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:18.160 for the Bee of Yon of the say Okay for 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.320 many years Queen Betal all the rest of that stuff. 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.920 I'm like, yeah, CEOs, all these billion dollar corporations, we 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.839 don't care about that. We care about beyonceave on these parts. 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:28.640 It's like we care about it all. But how amazing 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.600 is that his name is Marcus Collins and he's here 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:33.800 to talk to us today about like culture and what 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:36.640 we why do we do the way we what we do, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:39.240 why do we navigate the way we navigate? How does 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.520 that affect our finances? And about his book? And so 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:46.039 I'm super excited to welcome Marcus into the studio. 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.600 Hey, Marcus, what's happening. I'm so glad to be here. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:53.520 Thank you for coming. So Marcus, first of all, let's 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:55.320 get down to the nitty gritty. What was it like 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:56.280 working for Beyonce? 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.520 It was awesome. It was all me she you know, 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.520 I worked at I worked with her at a time 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.080 before she was Queen Bee. She was still you know, 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.519 Beyonce though iconic, and I feel like in those moments 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.640 you get to see a rare thing where someone elevates 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:17.440 and transcends into something otherworldly. And to be able to 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.000 work with her and she's just so lovely and so 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.840 amazing beyond her talent, She's just a really good human being. 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:26.519 I felt very fortunate to have a front row ticket 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.560 to seeing her transcend to queendom. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.440 Now that's awesome. Honestly, Mandy and I we have tickets 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.000 to go see her, you know, next moment. Okay, look 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:37.600 at Mandy, She's just gonna drop the baby and just 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.200 come on to the concert. But whatever, she knew what 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:45.320 it was where she got them ticket priorities. So one, 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.200 how did you like get into this line of work? 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:51.520 So what would you say that you do if you 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:53.920 had to, Like, I call myself a financial educator, Like, 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:55.160 what would you call yourself? 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.760 I think myself as a cultural translator, and I do 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.040 so in an effort to help people realize the best 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.600 version of themselves. Okay, whether I'm in the classroom as 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.960 a professor, which I am at the Raw School of Business, 0:03:08.080 --> 0:03:10.960 University of Michigan, or an advertiser, which I am at 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.000 the head of Strategy of Widen Kennedy, New York, or 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.080 rather on stages. I mean, ultimately, I'm leveraging the power 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.040 of culture, translating it from one entity to another and 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:24.360 back and back again to help marketers be better versions 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.000 of themselves, help students be better version of themselves, and 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.880 help individuals be better versions of themselves. 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:35.720 Okay, okay, oh that's awesome. So I guess what does that? 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:37.120 What does that? 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:38.040 So? I know for. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:39.920 Beyonce, it look like, you know, you did her social 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.040 media strategy, but what does that look like? So much 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:44.520 so that the CEO of McDonald's and read it in Deubta, like, 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.480 what does that look like? When you're working with those 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:47.960 type of organizations. 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.680 So, as a strategist working with these companies, I'm helping 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.680 them see the world through cultural lenses, right, realizing that 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.800 the world around us is not objective, it's subjective. That is, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.480 we see the world through the meaning frames that we have, 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.400 the beliefs that we hold, the artifacts that are meaningful, 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.240 the ideologies, stories we tell ourselves help us translate the world, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.000 which is why for some a Kyle's leather, for others 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.080 it's the deity, and for some it's dinner. But which 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.080 one is it? It's all of them based on their 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.480 cultural subscription. So for brands, I helped them see the 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:24.080 world through other people's lenses, help them understand how people 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.719 make meaning of the world around them and how their 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.920 brands are translated through these lenses so that when these 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.760 brands are communicating to consumers, they get a better understanding 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.839 of how people see the world and how they're translating 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:37.200 the world. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.480 I understand. So, for example, I remember the first time 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.400 that Ford, it was maybe like six seven years ago, 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:45.880 they reached out to me to like partner with me 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.279 because they were like, we're going to be at Essence 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.719 Fest and I was like, Ford the essence fast because 0:04:50.760 --> 0:04:53.520 you know, that's the white boy card, you know, like 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.680 and so my little spice As was like, oh, y'all 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:58.800 do on soul to all the white boys. Already, ain't 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.520 nobody left to buy this, so you need to bozyon 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:03.359 over to see us. Syste's over here. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.240 What's so interesting is that even the way you translate 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.520 that Ford is the white boy Trump before it, and 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.279 it inherently isn't that We just give it that meaning 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.960 because of how we see the brand, right, And it's 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:20.799 helping brands navigate the meaning that people associate to them 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:25.479 so that people like you who go to Essence that 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.840 are like, oh, this brand is for me, right, So 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.520 when I pull up in my forward, people aren't like, Tiffany, 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:33.240 what are you doing driving a forward instead? They're like, oh, yeah, 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.920 of course you would drive a forward because of who 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:39.400 you are. That congruence between what the brand wants to 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.320 mean and actually mean the minds of people is extremely powerful. 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.440 Especially we want people to buy the same thing goes. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.520 We want people to vote the same thing goes. We 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.080 want people to subscribe the same thing goes. We want 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:54.080 people to join our church. I mean, all of these things, 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.159 which I argue in the book, they're all driven to 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:02.640 get people to adopt behavior. Ultimately, that's behavioral adoption. And 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:06.040 the truth is there's no force, no external force, more 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.440 influential to human behavior than culture, and then more likely 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.080 we are to tap into it, the more likely we 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:12.120 are to get people to move. 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:15.239 So is that why you wrote for the culture because 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.279 you wanted to kind of like share that like nothing 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.480 is happening coincidentally, that people are shifting and moving and 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:26.240 adopting new ways and new behaviors based upon these external 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.520 forces and internal desires, Like can we tap into those 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:31.800 things intentionally? Like what's the intention of the book? What 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:32.719 do you hope people get? 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.040 That's spot on? I mean, essentially, as a marketer, it's 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:38.599 the field that I work in. We often use words 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.800 like let's get our idea out into culture, and let's 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.240 make sure our idea is informed by culture, or what's 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.719 going on in culture, culture, culture, culture, culture culture, and 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:50.039 even people say things like I'm doing it for my culture. 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:51.960 I'm doing it for the culture, right, which is why 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.400 I call the book. I called it. But if you 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:57.800 ask five people to define culture, you get thirty five 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.880 different answers. And that's our problem, right, because we can't 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:05.400 define anything concretely, how do we ever leverage fully leverage 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.880 the sway the power that culture has. So I wrote 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:13.280 the book to unpack this for practitioners, so you get 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.880 a better understanding what culture is, have a better Rosetta 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.440 stone to talk about it, and therefore be able to 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.400 operationalize it. But then as I was writing the book, 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.679 I started to identify that there are some personal reasons 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:27.960 at play here as well. Right. So, I'm born and 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.120 raised in Detroit, and I had it, that's right. What 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.920 up though? And I had to pinchant for math and 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.080 science as a kid, right, And in those days, if 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.080 you did well math and science and you were black, 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.120 oh you're going to be an engineer full stop. So 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:42.920 that's what I went into study because I thought that 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:45.560 that's how I was supposed to do. But once I 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:47.600 got into school, I realized, I don't think I want 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.480 to do this. My parents were like, well s, way 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:53.400 to you finish your wait till you get through your 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.440 get through your core courses. After your first year you 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.640 love it. They go, okay, my mom's an academic, and 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:01.600 I go, great, you know mom, Dad, I trust you. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:03.760 So I go into my second year and I go, oh, 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.200 I definitely don't want to do this. I thought it 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.560 was interesting, but I wasn't excited about it. I didn't 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:10.960 want to do it for rest of my life. So 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.080 I took some music theory courses to offset my terrible GPA, 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.360 and I fell in love with major sevens. I was like, oh, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.160 I want to be a songwriter. And I went home 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.080 that summer I said Mom and Dad, I know I 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.040 want to do for rest of my life. I want 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.160 to be a songwriter. They're like, oh, no, you don't. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.200 That is not happening, fam, No, no, you don't want 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.120 to do that. So I finished my degree in engineering, 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.080 but grudgingly, as soon as I graduated, went right into 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:37.040 the music industry and what I realized some twenty years later, 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.160 is that I didn't have the language to describe what 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.199 I was experiencing. What I was experiencing were the cultural 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:49.959 forces that dictate mandate in some ways, what's acceptable behavior 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.280 for people like us, and for people like me and 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:57.160 for many of us who look like us, Tiffany, is 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:01.160 that if you want to be successful, you pursue certain 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:04.679 career trajectories. If you do well in math and science, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.280 then you're either going to be an engineer or a doctor. 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.080 Like that's just what you do. And anything outside of 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.360 that is unacceptable. Anything outside of that is frowned upon. 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.720 And this is really what culture is. Culture is this 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:25.520 system of conventions and expectations that's acceptable behavior, acceptable trajectories 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.320 for people like us, and as a result, we take 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.160 on those behaviors, we do those things. And because I 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.720 didn't have the language to describe what was happening to me, 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.360 I didn't have a lot of agency to navigate through it. 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.439 All I had was that my parents is tripping, right, 0:09:40.840 --> 0:09:43.440 But what was really happening is that my parents themselves 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.720 were adhering to the cultural forces of what good parents 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:49.000 are supposed to do. You're supposed to push your children 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.160 towards things that are going to be potentially the most 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.559 beneficial for them, even if it's not what they want. Right, 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.920 And we're all being influenced by these forces that tells 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:02.800 us what it means to be normal. And I thought 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.640 that this book would help not only practitioners be better 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.320 at their jobs and getting people to adopt behavior, but 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:14.200 also help us individuals citizens navigating this cultural rule that 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:17.440 we live in, navigate these forces that tells us what 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:18.839 people like us ought to do. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.079 Well, what would you say as being I'm assuming you're 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.199 a black man? I mean you never know. I mean 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:28.520 you never know. 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.320 I self identify, yes as a black man, and I 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.840 do have melan in my skind I mean right? 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:39.120 Because so what we like being in this industry and 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.960 like we're just shifting gears towards like what you've seen culturally? 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.960 What has become the norm for what you'd say for 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.440 black Americans and the way we navigate our finances, like 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.800 what has been the norm? And how can we start 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.320 to and has that norm served us well? You know, 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:57.199 so what's been the norm? Has that norm served as well? 0:10:57.280 --> 0:10:59.600 And if you wanted to shift that norm for yourself 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.360 and say I actually don't want to adhere to that. 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:02.880 What are some things that people can do? 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.679 Yeah, so you're right, then the norm has not served 0:11:05.760 --> 0:11:09.240 us well. One gentleman by the name of Kanye West, 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.040 the old Kanye. By the way, don't judge old Kanye, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.480 the old Kanye. You know. He said it in a 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.680 very very profound way, and he said, and I spend 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:20.320 four hundred bucks on this just to be like, you 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:23.000 ain't up on this. Yes, And the idea is that 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.600 we consume as a way of signaling where we where 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:30.120 we are in a social hierarchy. An interesting part about 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.960 that is that that wasn't always the case, not for humanity. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.080 So I'm I'm a professor, so I can't help myself. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:42.920 If we go back in time for centuries the global 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:47.840 GDP was zero, practically non existent, which means that people 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.360 were not entering in exchange. We weren't buying and consuming things. 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:54.120 If we were, it was very, very minimal. And we're 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:59.440 doing it before utilitary utilitarian purposes, only right functionality, and 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:05.640 that waseenth into the sixteenth century where Queen Elizabeth, Elizabeth 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.240 in England says, you know, I can use consumption as 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.920 a means of egrandizement as a means of power. And 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.920 here's how it worked in her mind was that royalty 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.440 had everything. They had all the wealth, and the people 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.720 closest to royalty, that was nobility, that they would have 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.920 a little bit less, and the people way beneath them, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.600 the peasants had nothing. And the idea is that it 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.400 would keep royalty in power because they had the most. 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.160 It will force nobility to keep consuming so that they 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.160 can stay close to royalty, and it will keep the 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:43.040 people at the bottom of the peasants looking up, aspiring 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:47.000 to be more by consuming more. Right, and then Queen 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:53.480 Elizabeth could ration out commerce or ration out capital to 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.679 people and they would love her for it because it 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.680 would help them rise up the social hierarchy. You fast 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.200 forward a couple centuries later, you start seeing a little 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.240 bit of upticking economics in northern Europe, and they started 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:07.800 businesses started to make more money, so they paid their 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.520 employees more money. Their employees started to spend more money, 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.280 so business made more money. Employees started making more money, 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:14.960 so they spent more money. You started getting the cycle 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.640 of consumption. It massively explodes during the Indestrial Revolution. The 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.600 same thing goes today because the point is that people 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.280 weren't buying way back in the sixteenth century. They weren't 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:32.240 spending or consuming for functional needs. They were consuming for 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:36.240 psychological and sociological needs as a way of signaling who 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:38.920 they are and where they sit in the social hierarchy. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.240 The same thing goes today that we buy, we consume 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.560 as a way of signaling who we are in the 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.240 world and where we sit in a social hierarchy. And 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:52.520 the further you were down the social totem pole, the 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:57.880 more and the more motivated you were to consume as 0:13:57.880 --> 0:13:59.840 a way to signaling that you weren't at the bottom. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:04.440 And you take marginalized communities like people of color, people 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:07.960 like us. We then say that I have to consume 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.000 as a way to signal who I am, and I 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.520 spend four hundred bucks on this just to be like 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.600 you ain't right? So what does that mean for us 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:20.320 that if we know this, if we are now aware 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.360 that these are the forces that are motivating us to consume, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.600 that they're not with they're not they're not within us, 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.680 they're without us. There is they're they're pushing on us, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.160 then we can subvert them by having much more discretion 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.280 with what we consume or how much we consume of it, 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:39.800 not to keep up with the Joneses, as it were, uh, 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.640 but to signal our understanding of these forces and also 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:49.000 create new communities around people who decide not to consume 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:50.320 just for the sake of consumption. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.640 Yeah, and it's hard. I get it, because you know, 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.240 you grow up not having and then you tell yourself 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:59.160 one day, when I do have, I'm going to I 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:01.920 want to wear it externally. I was watching this not 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.120 that I usually get advice from Young Jock. I was like, 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:05.680 I was shocked. I was like, oh, you know, well, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.760 even a clock is right twice a day, so you know. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:10.960 If we listen to Kanye, we takeing Kanye advice, we 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:12.240 could take Young Jocke advice to me. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.560 I suppose so Young Jock surprise. It was like this 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.040 YouTube clip. He said something that was like this is 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.200 really profound and I'm glad he understood. He said that 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.360 this community that he's in of hip hop artists and 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.880 rappers and things like that, he was like it took 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.600 him a while to realize that the things that he 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.200 was wearing, the like the Lamborghini, the whatever, the things 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:34.560 he's driving, that it really didn't indicate that he had wealth, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.040 that he has money. He said it indicated that he 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.280 had money because he's now exchanged it for this thing. 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:45.040 He was like, my lambo, my dress, my outfit, It's 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.360 a receipt. That's right to show I once had hundreds 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:50.120 of thousands of not millions of dollars and now I 0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.320 have stuff, right. And I just thought that was so like, 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:57.000 those things are really a receipt of wealth once, not 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:58.720 that you want to keep money and not doing anything 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:00.520 with it. But I just thought that that was like, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.360 I was really shocked at his insight, you know. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.680 And he's right, He's spot on. I mean, I would argue, 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.160 and I do in the book that brands are they're 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.400 the most powerful. Brands are receipts of identity. They are 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.640 ways of signaling to the world who we are, right, 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.760 they're badges to say I am this because of the 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:23.200 meaning associated to these brands and the economic associations that 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.360 we have in our minds with those brands. So if 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:27.200 you if I'm driving a land boaw, You're like, oh, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.560 that dude's doing it. That is I am higher up 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.600 the social hierarchy thanks to Queen Elizabeth and the irony 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.320 of this, I suppose, is that the people who have 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.480 the most, who are most well off, they actually live 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:44.120 more innocuous lives. I e. You don't see the labels, 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.600 you don't see what they're, what they're what they have, right, Like, 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:52.920 so somewhere's they don't wear a bag of a Louis 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.120 Vuitton bag when they go into an event in New 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.920 York City because they leave their bag in their driver's car. Right. 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:08.359 So it's almost the ability to not to not explicitly 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.560 show wealth is a sign of wealth. But when you don't, 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.280 you don't explicit when you don't have wealth at least 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:18.960 where you're trying to signal it, you use consumption as 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:20.240 a way to do that very thing. 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.120 Yeah, it's really interesting because there's just been this I'm 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.160 sure you've seen on social media. There's this huge debate 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.840 right now between quiet luxury, you know, like that's what 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:32.240 everyone's talking about. Like, oh, like quiet luxury is to 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:34.199 your point, Like they're like, oh, look at Bill Gates, 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:38.359 you know, like nondescript khakis and whatever sweater versus like 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.320 Doug you down to the socks, you know, and so 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.359 like there's been this push but there's a lot of 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.760 colassiesm you know, like like looped into like quiet luxury 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.159 versus I guess what you know, almost like being ghetto 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:55.440 fabulous or whatever, Like what does that mean? So what's 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:57.359 your take? I mean, have you heard of this quiet 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.680 luxury movement? And what's your take on that? Like how 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.320 that reflects on a person identity and brand and culture. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:07.679 Yeah, I mean there's a there's an episode of Succession 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.240 a week or so ago where a woman in the 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.520 in the show in this in the scene, she has 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:17.600 like a very flashy bag and one of the characters, uh, 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.160 one of the main characters in the show, goes look 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.080 at her, like what is she doing? Like come on, like, 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.720 if you had wealth, you wouldn't need that bag. And 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:29.280 that's kind of what what? What? What? This is the 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.360 cycle of consumptions happening. This is the aggrandizement that Queen 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.960 Elizabeth was after that. We consume as a way of 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.399 signaling where we are in a social hierarchy, and we 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.639 have these these social and psychological wants to feel like 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:47.160 we're part of something, to feel like we're we're accepted, right, 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.399 and therefore consumption helps us do that very thing, you know, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.200 go back to Kanye because that song is just so powerful. 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.679 All falls down. He say, you make us hate ourselves 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.439 and love your wealth. That's why Charity's asking what a 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.880 ball is that? I mean, the idea there is that 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:10.800 consumption becomes a way by which we ingratiate ourselves into 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:16.280 society and try to find means to raise our social 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.760 status so that we get more access to things. But 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.200 at the same time, when you have it, you don't 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.800 need to show it, so you find you know, Warren 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.440 Buffett drives like the same Oldsmobile from forever long ago, 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.359 because he's like, why would you need multiple cars? Plus, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.880 as soon as you buy a car, it decreases in value, right, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.240 most cars, So you drive off the lot, it's it 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.720 costs lest it depreciates as soon as you drive it 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:43.320 off the lot. 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:43.840 Right. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.320 So all of these things require certain savviness that comes 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.200 with privilege, And when you don't come from a privileged place, 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.200 you just say, I just want access to it, right, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.320 So you can't fault people. You can't mean, got the 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.359 young jack. Young Jock got to that realization, But you 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.919 can't fault people who are trying to navigate it. Because 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.720 I want to be on one of six apart pushing 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.560 the bins. I mean you go right back to to 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:10.560 all falls down. Right, such a such a profound statement 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.160 that that song is. And this is the power by 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.520 the way of cultural production, right, the way that we 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:22.399 express who we are and where our identity is subscribed. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.080 I mean you stick on the Kanye piece. My wife 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.399 and I had our eldest daughter. We were driving a 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:30.840 small little hatchback car living in New York City, so 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:32.600 we had like a little bit of car and my 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:33.800 wife was like, you know, I think we need to 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.719 get to I think we probably need to get an 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:39.639 suv Nan Greed. And we had a list of SUVs 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.119 that we were considering, but there was one SUV that 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:44.800 we would not buy, not even and it was even 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:49.280 on the consideration set, even though empirically it performed well. 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:54.520 And that was a Toyota raft for why because Kanye 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:56.040 told us, what do you think I rapped for to 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:59.480 push an fing raft for? I mean, that's the power 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.680 of cultural like it signals to us what we ought 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:07.000 to have. And look at the dominant cultural production of 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:11.359