1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, we're back. We're black, weird, brown, but 2 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: extra brown because Mandy's here. You know, Mandy's only half 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,120 Speaker 1: brown anyway. Ambition ambition and this should this should ambition. 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: No shade to you, Mandy, but you now welcome back 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: to brown ambition. I am cutting up, which means that 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: Mandra is not here. She might be having her baby, 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: she might not. Who knows, Mandy. Mandy might be changing 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: the oil on her car. Y'all know how Mandy do? 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: She don't see, she don't rest. But baby number two 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: is on his way. And so that means Auntie Tiffany 11 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: is in the stew, but not by herself. I'm in 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: the stew with a guest today. Let me introduce this. 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: I was looking at this guest like a little mini Bayer. 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: I was like, well, day, I'm coming to the room. 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: So our new guest today has a book called for 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: the Culture. It's been endorsed by the CEO of McDonald's, Boom, Reddit, Boom, 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: Delta Boom, Home Depot Boom, and many more major companies. 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: But bigger than that, y'all. He's run social media strategy 19 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: for the Bee of Yon of the say Okay for 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 1: many years Queen Betal all the rest of that stuff. 21 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, CEOs, all these billion dollar corporations, we 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,839 Speaker 1: don't care about that. We care about beyonceave on these parts. 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: It's like we care about it all. But how amazing 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: is that his name is Marcus Collins and he's here 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: to talk to us today about like culture and what 26 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: we why do we do the way we what we do, 27 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: why do we navigate the way we navigate? How does 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: that affect our finances? And about his book? And so 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 1: I'm super excited to welcome Marcus into the studio. 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: Hey, Marcus, what's happening. I'm so glad to be here. 31 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming. So Marcus, first of all, let's 32 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: get down to the nitty gritty. What was it like 33 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: working for Beyonce? 34 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: It was awesome. It was all me she you know, 35 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: I worked at I worked with her at a time 36 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: before she was Queen Bee. She was still you know, 37 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 2: Beyonce though iconic, and I feel like in those moments 38 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 2: you get to see a rare thing where someone elevates 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 2: and transcends into something otherworldly. And to be able to 40 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: work with her and she's just so lovely and so 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: amazing beyond her talent, She's just a really good human being. 42 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,519 Speaker 2: I felt very fortunate to have a front row ticket 43 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: to seeing her transcend to queendom. 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: Now that's awesome. Honestly, Mandy and I we have tickets 45 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: to go see her, you know, next moment. Okay, look 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: at Mandy, She's just gonna drop the baby and just 47 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: come on to the concert. But whatever, she knew what 48 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: it was where she got them ticket priorities. So one, 49 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: how did you like get into this line of work? 50 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: So what would you say that you do if you 51 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 1: had to, Like, I call myself a financial educator, Like, 52 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: what would you call yourself? 53 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: I think myself as a cultural translator, and I do 54 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: so in an effort to help people realize the best 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: version of themselves. Okay, whether I'm in the classroom as 56 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: a professor, which I am at the Raw School of Business, 57 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: University of Michigan, or an advertiser, which I am at 58 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: the head of Strategy of Widen Kennedy, New York, or 59 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 2: rather on stages. I mean, ultimately, I'm leveraging the power 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: of culture, translating it from one entity to another and 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: back and back again to help marketers be better versions 62 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: of themselves, help students be better version of themselves, and 63 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: help individuals be better versions of themselves. 64 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, oh that's awesome. So I guess what does that? 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: What does that? 66 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: So? I know for. 67 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: Beyonce, it look like, you know, you did her social 68 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: media strategy, but what does that look like? So much 69 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: so that the CEO of McDonald's and read it in Deubta, like, 70 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: what does that look like? When you're working with those 71 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: type of organizations. 72 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: So, as a strategist working with these companies, I'm helping 73 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 2: them see the world through cultural lenses, right, realizing that 74 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: the world around us is not objective, it's subjective. That is, 75 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: we see the world through the meaning frames that we have, 76 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: the beliefs that we hold, the artifacts that are meaningful, 77 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: the ideologies, stories we tell ourselves help us translate the world, 78 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: which is why for some a Kyle's leather, for others 79 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: it's the deity, and for some it's dinner. But which 80 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: one is it? It's all of them based on their 81 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 2: cultural subscription. So for brands, I helped them see the 82 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: world through other people's lenses, help them understand how people 83 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 2: make meaning of the world around them and how their 84 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: brands are translated through these lenses so that when these 85 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: brands are communicating to consumers, they get a better understanding 86 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: of how people see the world and how they're translating 87 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: the world. 88 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: I understand. So, for example, I remember the first time 89 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: that Ford, it was maybe like six seven years ago, 90 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: they reached out to me to like partner with me 91 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: because they were like, we're going to be at Essence 92 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: Fest and I was like, Ford the essence fast because 93 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, that's the white boy card, you know, like 94 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: and so my little spice As was like, oh, y'all 95 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: do on soul to all the white boys. Already, ain't 96 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: nobody left to buy this, so you need to bozyon 97 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: over to see us. Syste's over here. 98 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 2: What's so interesting is that even the way you translate 99 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: that Ford is the white boy Trump before it, and 100 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 2: it inherently isn't that We just give it that meaning 101 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: because of how we see the brand, right, And it's 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 2: helping brands navigate the meaning that people associate to them 103 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: so that people like you who go to Essence that 104 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 2: are like, oh, this brand is for me, right, So 105 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: when I pull up in my forward, people aren't like, Tiffany, 106 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: what are you doing driving a forward instead? They're like, oh, yeah, 107 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: of course you would drive a forward because of who 108 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: you are. That congruence between what the brand wants to 109 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: mean and actually mean the minds of people is extremely powerful. 110 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: Especially we want people to buy the same thing goes. 111 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: We want people to vote the same thing goes. We 112 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: want people to subscribe the same thing goes. We want 113 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 2: people to join our church. I mean, all of these things, 114 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: which I argue in the book, they're all driven to 115 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: get people to adopt behavior. Ultimately, that's behavioral adoption. And 116 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: the truth is there's no force, no external force, more 117 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 2: influential to human behavior than culture, and then more likely 118 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: we are to tap into it, the more likely we 119 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: are to get people to move. 120 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: So is that why you wrote for the culture because 121 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: you wanted to kind of like share that like nothing 122 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: is happening coincidentally, that people are shifting and moving and 123 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: adopting new ways and new behaviors based upon these external 124 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: forces and internal desires, Like can we tap into those 125 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: things intentionally? Like what's the intention of the book? What 126 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:32,719 Speaker 1: do you hope people get? 127 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 2: That's spot on? I mean, essentially, as a marketer, it's 128 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 2: the field that I work in. We often use words 129 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: like let's get our idea out into culture, and let's 130 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 2: make sure our idea is informed by culture, or what's 131 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 2: going on in culture, culture, culture, culture, culture culture, and 132 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 2: even people say things like I'm doing it for my culture. 133 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: I'm doing it for the culture, right, which is why 134 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: I call the book. I called it. But if you 135 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 2: ask five people to define culture, you get thirty five 136 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: different answers. And that's our problem, right, because we can't 137 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: define anything concretely, how do we ever leverage fully leverage 138 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: the sway the power that culture has. So I wrote 139 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: the book to unpack this for practitioners, so you get 140 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: a better understanding what culture is, have a better Rosetta 141 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 2: stone to talk about it, and therefore be able to 142 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: operationalize it. But then as I was writing the book, 143 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,679 Speaker 2: I started to identify that there are some personal reasons 144 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: at play here as well. Right. So, I'm born and 145 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: raised in Detroit, and I had it, that's right. What 146 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: up though? And I had to pinchant for math and 147 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: science as a kid, right, And in those days, if 148 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 2: you did well math and science and you were black, 149 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: oh you're going to be an engineer full stop. So 150 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 2: that's what I went into study because I thought that 151 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 2: that's how I was supposed to do. But once I 152 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: got into school, I realized, I don't think I want 153 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 2: to do this. My parents were like, well s, way 154 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: to you finish your wait till you get through your 155 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: get through your core courses. After your first year you 156 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: love it. They go, okay, my mom's an academic, and 157 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: I go, great, you know mom, Dad, I trust you. 158 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: So I go into my second year and I go, oh, 159 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: I definitely don't want to do this. I thought it 160 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: was interesting, but I wasn't excited about it. I didn't 161 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: want to do it for rest of my life. So 162 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: I took some music theory courses to offset my terrible GPA, 163 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 2: and I fell in love with major sevens. I was like, oh, 164 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: I want to be a songwriter. And I went home 165 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 2: that summer I said Mom and Dad, I know I 166 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: want to do for rest of my life. I want 167 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: to be a songwriter. They're like, oh, no, you don't. 168 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: That is not happening, fam, No, no, you don't want 169 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 2: to do that. So I finished my degree in engineering, 170 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 2: but grudgingly, as soon as I graduated, went right into 171 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: the music industry and what I realized some twenty years later, 172 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: is that I didn't have the language to describe what 173 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 2: I was experiencing. What I was experiencing were the cultural 174 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 2: forces that dictate mandate in some ways, what's acceptable behavior 175 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 2: for people like us, and for people like me and 176 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: for many of us who look like us, Tiffany, is 177 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: that if you want to be successful, you pursue certain 178 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 2: career trajectories. If you do well in math and science, 179 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: then you're either going to be an engineer or a doctor. 180 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: Like that's just what you do. And anything outside of 181 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 2: that is unacceptable. Anything outside of that is frowned upon. 182 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: And this is really what culture is. Culture is this 183 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: system of conventions and expectations that's acceptable behavior, acceptable trajectories 184 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 2: for people like us, and as a result, we take 185 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: on those behaviors, we do those things. And because I 186 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: didn't have the language to describe what was happening to me, 187 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of agency to navigate through it. 188 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 2: All I had was that my parents is tripping, right, 189 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: But what was really happening is that my parents themselves 190 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: were adhering to the cultural forces of what good parents 191 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 2: are supposed to do. You're supposed to push your children 192 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 2: towards things that are going to be potentially the most 193 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 2: beneficial for them, even if it's not what they want. Right, 194 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: And we're all being influenced by these forces that tells 195 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 2: us what it means to be normal. And I thought 196 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: that this book would help not only practitioners be better 197 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 2: at their jobs and getting people to adopt behavior, but 198 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 2: also help us individuals citizens navigating this cultural rule that 199 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: we live in, navigate these forces that tells us what 200 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 2: people like us ought to do. 201 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 1: Well, what would you say as being I'm assuming you're 202 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: a black man? I mean you never know. I mean 203 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: you never know. 204 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 2: I self identify, yes as a black man, and I 205 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 2: do have melan in my skind I mean right? 206 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: Because so what we like being in this industry and 207 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: like we're just shifting gears towards like what you've seen culturally? 208 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: What has become the norm for what you'd say for 209 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: black Americans and the way we navigate our finances, like 210 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: what has been the norm? And how can we start 211 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: to and has that norm served us well? You know, 212 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: so what's been the norm? Has that norm served as well? 213 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: And if you wanted to shift that norm for yourself 214 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: and say I actually don't want to adhere to that. 215 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: What are some things that people can do? 216 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're right, then the norm has not served 217 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 2: us well. One gentleman by the name of Kanye West, 218 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: the old Kanye. By the way, don't judge old Kanye, 219 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: the old Kanye. You know. He said it in a 220 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 2: very very profound way, and he said, and I spend 221 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 2: four hundred bucks on this just to be like, you 222 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: ain't up on this. Yes, And the idea is that 223 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 2: we consume as a way of signaling where we where 224 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: we are in a social hierarchy. An interesting part about 225 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: that is that that wasn't always the case, not for humanity. 226 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: So I'm I'm a professor, so I can't help myself. 227 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 2: If we go back in time for centuries the global 228 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 2: GDP was zero, practically non existent, which means that people 229 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 2: were not entering in exchange. We weren't buying and consuming things. 230 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: If we were, it was very, very minimal. And we're 231 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: doing it before utilitary utilitarian purposes, only right functionality, and 232 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: that waseenth into the sixteenth century where Queen Elizabeth, Elizabeth 233 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: in England says, you know, I can use consumption as 234 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: a means of egrandizement as a means of power. And 235 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: here's how it worked in her mind was that royalty 236 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 2: had everything. They had all the wealth, and the people 237 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 2: closest to royalty, that was nobility, that they would have 238 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: a little bit less, and the people way beneath them, 239 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: the peasants had nothing. And the idea is that it 240 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: would keep royalty in power because they had the most. 241 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: It will force nobility to keep consuming so that they 242 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: can stay close to royalty, and it will keep the 243 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: people at the bottom of the peasants looking up, aspiring 244 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: to be more by consuming more. Right, and then Queen 245 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: Elizabeth could ration out commerce or ration out capital to 246 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 2: people and they would love her for it because it 247 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: would help them rise up the social hierarchy. You fast 248 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: forward a couple centuries later, you start seeing a little 249 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: bit of upticking economics in northern Europe, and they started 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 2: businesses started to make more money, so they paid their 251 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 2: employees more money. Their employees started to spend more money, 252 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: so business made more money. Employees started making more money, 253 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 2: so they spent more money. You started getting the cycle 254 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: of consumption. It massively explodes during the Indestrial Revolution. The 255 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: same thing goes today because the point is that people 256 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 2: weren't buying way back in the sixteenth century. They weren't 257 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 2: spending or consuming for functional needs. They were consuming for 258 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: psychological and sociological needs as a way of signaling who 259 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: they are and where they sit in the social hierarchy. 260 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: The same thing goes today that we buy, we consume 261 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: as a way of signaling who we are in the 262 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: world and where we sit in a social hierarchy. And 263 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: the further you were down the social totem pole, the 264 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: more and the more motivated you were to consume as 265 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 2: a way to signaling that you weren't at the bottom. 266 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 2: And you take marginalized communities like people of color, people 267 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 2: like us. We then say that I have to consume 268 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: as a way to signal who I am, and I 269 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: spend four hundred bucks on this just to be like 270 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: you ain't right? So what does that mean for us 271 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 2: that if we know this, if we are now aware 272 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: that these are the forces that are motivating us to consume, 273 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 2: that they're not with they're not they're not within us, 274 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: they're without us. There is they're they're pushing on us, 275 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: then we can subvert them by having much more discretion 276 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: with what we consume or how much we consume of it, 277 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: not to keep up with the Joneses, as it were, uh, 278 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: but to signal our understanding of these forces and also 279 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: create new communities around people who decide not to consume 280 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: just for the sake of consumption. 281 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's hard. I get it, because you know, 282 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: you grow up not having and then you tell yourself 283 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: one day, when I do have, I'm going to I 284 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: want to wear it externally. I was watching this not 285 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: that I usually get advice from Young Jock. I was like, 286 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: I was shocked. I was like, oh, you know, well, 287 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: even a clock is right twice a day, so you know. 288 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: If we listen to Kanye, we takeing Kanye advice, we 289 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: could take Young Jocke advice to me. 290 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: I suppose so Young Jock surprise. It was like this 291 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: YouTube clip. He said something that was like this is 292 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: really profound and I'm glad he understood. He said that 293 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: this community that he's in of hip hop artists and 294 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: rappers and things like that, he was like it took 295 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: him a while to realize that the things that he 296 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: was wearing, the like the Lamborghini, the whatever, the things 297 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 1: he's driving, that it really didn't indicate that he had wealth, 298 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: that he has money. He said it indicated that he 299 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: had money because he's now exchanged it for this thing. 300 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: He was like, my lambo, my dress, my outfit, It's 301 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: a receipt. That's right to show I once had hundreds 302 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: of thousands of not millions of dollars and now I 303 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: have stuff, right. And I just thought that was so like, 304 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: those things are really a receipt of wealth once, not 305 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: that you want to keep money and not doing anything 306 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: with it. But I just thought that that was like, 307 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: I was really shocked at his insight, you know. 308 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: And he's right, He's spot on. I mean, I would argue, 309 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: and I do in the book that brands are they're 310 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: the most powerful. Brands are receipts of identity. They are 311 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: ways of signaling to the world who we are, right, 312 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 2: they're badges to say I am this because of the 313 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: meaning associated to these brands and the economic associations that 314 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 2: we have in our minds with those brands. So if 315 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: you if I'm driving a land boaw, You're like, oh, 316 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 2: that dude's doing it. That is I am higher up 317 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: the social hierarchy thanks to Queen Elizabeth and the irony 318 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: of this, I suppose, is that the people who have 319 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 2: the most, who are most well off, they actually live 320 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 2: more innocuous lives. I e. You don't see the labels, 321 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: you don't see what they're, what they're what they have, right, Like, 322 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: so somewhere's they don't wear a bag of a Louis 323 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: Vuitton bag when they go into an event in New 324 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 2: York City because they leave their bag in their driver's car. Right. 325 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 2: So it's almost the ability to not to not explicitly 326 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: show wealth is a sign of wealth. But when you don't, 327 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: you don't explicit when you don't have wealth at least 328 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: where you're trying to signal it, you use consumption as 329 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: a way to do that very thing. 330 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting because there's just been this I'm 331 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,160 Speaker 1: sure you've seen on social media. There's this huge debate 332 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: right now between quiet luxury, you know, like that's what 333 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: everyone's talking about. Like, oh, like quiet luxury is to 334 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: your point, Like they're like, oh, look at Bill Gates, 335 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: you know, like nondescript khakis and whatever sweater versus like 336 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: Doug you down to the socks, you know, and so 337 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: like there's been this push but there's a lot of 338 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: colassiesm you know, like like looped into like quiet luxury 339 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: versus I guess what you know, almost like being ghetto 340 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: fabulous or whatever, Like what does that mean? So what's 341 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: your take? I mean, have you heard of this quiet 342 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: luxury movement? And what's your take on that? Like how 343 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: that reflects on a person identity and brand and culture. 344 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a there's an episode of Succession 345 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: a week or so ago where a woman in the 346 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: in the show in this in the scene, she has 347 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: like a very flashy bag and one of the characters, uh, 348 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 2: one of the main characters in the show, goes look 349 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 2: at her, like what is she doing? Like come on, like, 350 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: if you had wealth, you wouldn't need that bag. And 351 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: that's kind of what what? What? What? This is the 352 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: cycle of consumptions happening. This is the aggrandizement that Queen 353 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: Elizabeth was after that. We consume as a way of 354 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 2: signaling where we are in a social hierarchy, and we 355 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 2: have these these social and psychological wants to feel like 356 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: we're part of something, to feel like we're we're accepted, right, 357 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: and therefore consumption helps us do that very thing, you know, 358 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 2: go back to Kanye because that song is just so powerful. 359 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,679 Speaker 2: All falls down. He say, you make us hate ourselves 360 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: and love your wealth. That's why Charity's asking what a 361 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 2: ball is that? I mean, the idea there is that 362 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: consumption becomes a way by which we ingratiate ourselves into 363 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: society and try to find means to raise our social 364 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: status so that we get more access to things. But 365 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 2: at the same time, when you have it, you don't 366 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: need to show it, so you find you know, Warren 367 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: Buffett drives like the same Oldsmobile from forever long ago, 368 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: because he's like, why would you need multiple cars? Plus, 369 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 2: as soon as you buy a car, it decreases in value, right, 370 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: most cars, So you drive off the lot, it's it 371 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 2: costs lest it depreciates as soon as you drive it 372 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: off the lot. 373 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: Right. 374 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: So all of these things require certain savviness that comes 375 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: with privilege, And when you don't come from a privileged place, 376 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: you just say, I just want access to it, right, 377 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: So you can't fault people. You can't mean, got the 378 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: young jack. Young Jock got to that realization, But you 379 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 2: can't fault people who are trying to navigate it. Because 380 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: I want to be on one of six apart pushing 381 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: the bins. I mean you go right back to to 382 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: all falls down. Right, such a such a profound statement 383 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: that that song is. And this is the power by 384 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: the way of cultural production, right, the way that we 385 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 2: express who we are and where our identity is subscribed. 386 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: I mean you stick on the Kanye piece. My wife 387 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: and I had our eldest daughter. We were driving a 388 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: small little hatchback car living in New York City, so 389 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: we had like a little bit of car and my 390 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: wife was like, you know, I think we need to 391 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,719 Speaker 2: get to I think we probably need to get an 392 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 2: suv Nan Greed. And we had a list of SUVs 393 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 2: that we were considering, but there was one SUV that 394 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 2: we would not buy, not even and it was even 395 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: on the consideration set, even though empirically it performed well. 396 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: And that was a Toyota raft for why because Kanye 397 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 2: told us, what do you think I rapped for to 398 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 2: push an fing raft for? I mean, that's the power 399 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 2: of cultural like it signals to us what we ought 400 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 2: to have. And look at the dominant cultural production of 401 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: the predominant Black culture is hip hop music. Yeah, and 402 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 2: hip hop tells us what to wear, what's exactly, and 403 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: consumption becomes a way of signaling that. Now, I don't 404 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,959 Speaker 2: want to think. I don't want to be sort of 405 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 2: the wet blanket on consumption, because consumption also signals or 406 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: helps us make our culture material. Right. If you're a Muslim, right, 407 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 2: you would wear a hijab as a way of a 408 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 2: signaling not only it's an outward expression of an inward belief, 409 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: signaling who you are and what you believe. That that's 410 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: super powerful. And her jobs can either be created by 411 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: hand or you can consume it by someone who made 412 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 2: it by hand. Consumption in that matter or in that 413 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 2: way makes one's culture material, and that's super powerful. Right, 414 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: Like I grew up watching Spike Lee movies as a kid. 415 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 2: Consume those Spike Lee movies. But those Spike Lee movies 416 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,640 Speaker 2: help give me an understanding of race relations in this country. Right, 417 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 2: So consumption isn't all bad. But as they say, all 418 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: you know, anything in access can be problematic. 419 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: So in your book, do you offer up solutions of 420 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: what people could do like one, I know there's probably 421 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: solutions for brands of how they can connect to culture 422 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: more effectively, But do you offer up solutions for individuals 423 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: about what they can do to help self define culture 424 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: for themselves. 425 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean the idea in the book is, let's 426 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: get some language that we all can describe this thing 427 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 2: that that we're experiencing, whether we know it or not. 428 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: And if we have some language, then we probably understand 429 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 2: the mechanisms that are a part of it. And that 430 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: with the ability to pinpoint these mechanisms, we are now 431 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,239 Speaker 2: empowered to do something about it, to leverage them in 432 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 2: powerful ways, whether you're a practitioner or individual. Navigating this 433 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: cultural landscape that we live in and particularly thinking about 434 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 2: the stories that we are told, the stories that we 435 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: tell ourselves, and then how we use those stories to 436 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 2: make sense of the world around us. I do this 437 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: exercise with my students here at the University of Michigan, 438 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 2: you know. I have them do a media diet inventory, right. 439 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: I tell them to think about all the shows, all 440 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: the movies you've watched in the last three months. They 441 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: write them down and then identify who is the main character, 442 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: what's their age, their race, their gender, their their origins, 443 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: who are they right? And then look at the antagonists, 444 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 2: the villain, their rage, their race, their gender, their origins, 445 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: their ethnicities right, and then what are the stories that 446 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: are told about each one of them? And then do 447 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 2: the same for the stories that you tell, what you post, 448 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: what you don't post, what you post about, and who 449 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 2: is the main character in those posts? Right? And as 450 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: you with those two things together, you start to ask yourself, 451 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: oh man, the stories that I tell about myself, about 452 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: who I am and how I fit in this world 453 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: is oftentimes informed by and shaped by the stories that 454 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 2: I ingest, the media, diet that I consume. And if 455 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: those things be the case, if those things seem to 456 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: be incongruence, which they mostly are, at least in my 457 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 2: with my students, then you tell yourself, Okay, I need 458 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: to start taking in different media, listen to different stories, 459 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 2: watching different things, listen to different things, so that my 460 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: worldview might be shaped differently because of what I ingest. 461 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: So it's like you are what you eat to literally that's. 462 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: Right, literally, literally one thousand percent. And as a result, 463 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: that gives us agency. It gives lots of agency to say, Okay, 464 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: I'm not going to take that in. I'm not going 465 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 2: to take this in, right, you know, I'm going to 466 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 2: protect my space and protect my peace, and by doing 467 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: so that means getting rid of things that could potentially 468 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: be harmful for me. 469 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: It's funny because I I am Nigerian. Both of my 470 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: parents were born and raised in Nigeria. I was born 471 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: in Newark, New Jersey, Brick City Standard. But I remember 472 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: the first time I went to Nigeria. I think I 473 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: was twenty one, right after college, and I was so 474 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: shocked at what my cousins in Nigeria thought what America 475 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: was like. It was a caricature. And I remember thinking like, 476 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,239 Speaker 1: this can't be what you guys think. And then you 477 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: see what that. My mom was like, well, of course 478 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,640 Speaker 1: they think this because how else would they know. They're 479 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: watching and consuming the media that's pushed out about black Americans. 480 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: And I was like it just never because you know, 481 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: I'm living here, so I'm like I can see what 482 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: the reality is that there is a you know, we're 483 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: not a monolith. There's so many different types of people. 484 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: But if all you ever watch are like the Robber, 485 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: the Gangster, the you know, it is black and the thing. 486 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: I just couldn't believe because I'm like but because in 487 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: my mind, I'm like, we all look alike, and it's like, yeah, 488 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 1: but in America it seems like everybody is so terrible, 489 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 1: and I just thought, wow, that's what That was the 490 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,239 Speaker 1: first time that it hit me that it's not just 491 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: it's just a movie. It's not because this is what 492 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: we're showing the world what to believe about us. And 493 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: so yeah, it was just like really like mind blowing. 494 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: The literature refers to what you just experiences of public pedagogy. 495 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: It's how we learn about other people without experiencing them 496 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 2: for ourselves, and we learn about them through the media 497 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 2: that we consume, and as a result, we create these 498 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: frames around who those people are. That's how you get stereotypes, 499 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: like you get these frames around who these people are. 500 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: For instance, I went to Austria for the first time 501 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 2: last year, and when I got there, I was really 502 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,400 Speaker 2: uncomfortable because the whole time I was thinking about, Yo, 503 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: Nazis were up and down this place, you know what 504 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 2: I mean, Like, yeah, yeah, they resistant for sure, but like, 505 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: Nazis were up and down this place, and I just 506 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: felt so uncomfortable, And in that split second, I realized, oh, man, 507 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: if I were coming to the United States, I would 508 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: be super uncomfortable too. It's like, y'all enslaved people y'all 509 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 2: were hanging people from these not that long ago. By 510 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 2: the way, it's like, this is what y'all was doing. 511 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 2: It was a part of your normal cultural practice. It 512 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: was acceptable, right, And as a result, I go, man, 513 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm over here, you know, feeling uncomfortable and a certain 514 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: way about Austrians when they come to States, they probably 515 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: feel a certain way about us. And that's the things 516 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 2: that you know, we are all a villain in someone's story, 517 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 2: depending on the stories that are told about us. And 518 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: the idea is that if we want the world to 519 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: take different shape, then we have to change the way 520 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: that we see the world, and oftentimes that requires us 521 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 2: hearing new stories and telling ourselves new stories, because as 522 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 2: a result, the world change. 523 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: Accordingly, my therapist calls that corrective experiences. 524 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 525 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: She was just like, you know, you believe, you know, 526 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: the experience has told you when you were ten years old, 527 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: when I go here, this happens. When I go here, 528 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: this happens. And it's like, yeah, that actually wasn't true. 529 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: They weren't really related. You know, maybe like every time 530 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,360 Speaker 1: you wake up, you know, you sneeze and you think, oh, 531 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: I must be allergic to waking up, But that's not 532 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: really true until you get older and you're not sneezing 533 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: when you wake up. Maybe you had an hamster when 534 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: you were a kid, and it was sneezing because there 535 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: were actually was an animal in the room. But a 536 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: corrective experience will show you like I wake up and 537 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: I didn't sneeze. I wake up and I didn't sneeze. 538 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: So then the new experiences teach you that this is 539 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: the new this is the new norm, this is the 540 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: new belief. And so so I just wanted to pivot 541 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 1: and talk about like because I have my own business, 542 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: I have several businesses, and I'm curious as to you know, 543 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: with your lens, what brands are getting it right when 544 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: it comes to like connecting to culture across the board, 545 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: Like what brands do you see that you're like, this 546 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: is what they're getting it right? And I mean, I 547 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: don't know how comfortable you feel what brands are not 548 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: getting it right? 549 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: Why the brands that get it right are the brands 550 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 2: who have a point of view about the world. Okay, right, 551 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 2: if we think about me, You've just nailed it when 552 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 2: you talked about the idea of perspective, right, like a 553 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 2: nice stamp says it this way, that things aren't the 554 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 2: way they are, they are the way that we are. 555 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: Right. 556 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: That is, the world manifests based on how you see 557 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: the world. So if you change your worldview, the world 558 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: will change. Right. And it's no surprise that culture is 559 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 2: anchored in our identity. And the foundation of culture is 560 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 2: our beliefs, our ideologies. Right, And because of our beliefs 561 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: and ideologies, we show up in the world a certain way. 562 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: We dress a certain way, we act a certain way, 563 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: we talk a certain way, and we express our cultural 564 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 2: subscription through the cultural production that we take in which 565 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 2: I talk in great, great length in the book. So 566 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 2: which brands fare the best? The brands that fear the 567 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 2: best are the ones that are congruent with the beliefs 568 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: that people have. That is, I wear this brand. I 569 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: use this brand not only because of what it is functionally, 570 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 2: but what it says about who I am, that it 571 00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 2: becomes a shortcut to my identity. 572 00:29:59,680 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: Right. 573 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: So the most powerful brands are the brands with the 574 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: point of view about the world. Okay, right, they become 575 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 2: those identity marks. But about earlier does identity mark that 576 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 2: signal luxury? And those things are fluid based on what 577 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 2: is considered luxurious. Right, Like five years ago, Supreme was 578 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: the thing. Now not so much, right, Supreme isn't is 579 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: it considered luxury streetwear as much as it once was. 580 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 2: You have the long standing ones like you know, Louis 581 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: Vauton Gucci to stick around quite longer, But the ones 582 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: that are most powerful are the ones that become extensions 583 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 2: of my identity. Take Nike for instance. Nike believes that 584 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: every human body is an athlete. That's what it believes 585 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: at its core, that we're all athletes, big, small, short, tall, 586 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 2: were all athletes, and as a brand, Nike helps people 587 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: realize their best athletic self. So when I'm tying up 588 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: my Nikes before my run, even though I am not 589 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: a good athlete, I was a swimmer, not a runner, right, 590 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: I kind of feel like I could do this thing 591 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 2: right because of the thoughts in the thoughts and feelings 592 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: are evoked when I engage the brand Nike, right. Even 593 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: we see this with human beings. Beyonce. Beyonce is an artist. 594 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: She's a singer, a dancer, performer, and actress, entrepreneurial mobile. 595 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: She has all these different hyphens, that's what she does. 596 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: What does Beyonce believe in women's empowerment? Yes, and she's 597 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: been about that since day one. Beyonce has transcended her 598 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 2: category as being an artist as being an entertainer, and 599 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: she operates at the ideological level of being about women's empowerment, 600 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 2: which opens her up to do whatever she wants to do. 601 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 2: She's not bound by the confines of being a musical artist. 602 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 2: She is liberated by her point of view of the world. 603 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: And the people who support Beyonce is is because her 604 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 2: music is good and it is right. It's because they 605 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 2: see the world the way she does. 606 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: Yes, Oh, I love that. 607 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: And being a Beyonce fan becomes a way of signaling 608 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: who I am. 609 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: It's true the first constant I want to I can't 610 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: remember if it was like her Lemonade tour or whatever. 611 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: I remember being like, this feels like a women in 612 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: Paaramids conference. Yes, right, literally, I remember thinking like it's 613 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: just me. I felt. I left feeling like I went 614 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: to a conference and I could do anything, and I 615 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: could accomplish anything, and I'm like this woman is just 616 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: singing and dancing, but I didn't. I literally felt like, yo, 617 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to take over the world's right. So no, 618 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: I love that, and I I know those are great 619 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: examples of like brands that get it right. 620 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,680 Speaker 2: And she's been doing that since like no, no, no, 621 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: pay my bills, survivor irreplaceable to the left, who runs 622 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: the world? Girls, all the single ladies who all the 623 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 2: way to young to break my soul? I mean, she 624 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: has been on that since day one. You talk about 625 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: brand authenticity and consistency, my goodness been she's been there. 626 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 2: So it means for brands, then for brands who want 627 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: to be the best version of themselves, it means identifying 628 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: what do I believe, how do I see the world, 629 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: and then how do I manifest that in the way 630 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 2: that I show up in the world, whether it's my 631 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 2: products or my messaging as well. 632 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: No, I love that. So the brands that don't get 633 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: it right, these are the ones who've kind of lost 634 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: their way and don't and forgotten what they why they started, 635 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: and what they believed in, you know, because I wonder, 636 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: like why the brands go from like the highest of 637 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: high and then they're like yeah, yeah. 638 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: Well, so these are the brands that focus on value propositions. 639 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: They focus on my razor sharper, my battery last longer, 640 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 2: my car goes faster, and you could be at the top. 641 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: So long as you got the fastest, the fastest car, 642 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,239 Speaker 2: your battery lasts the longest. But as soon as there 643 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 2: is a longer lasting battery, boom, you shot dead. Right. 644 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 2: That's how we go from being massive highs to dramatic lows. 645 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 1: I think about like even now now with like this 646 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: fast fashion. Before Sheen, there was oh what was that 647 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: company name, I can't even remember, but they were huge. 648 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: It was Fashion Nova, no Fashion Over. Remember, they were huge. 649 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: But it was because we sell the cheapest closed that's right, 650 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, for a like decent value closed for really inexpensive, 651 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: you know, like for the for the lowest price, and 652 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: then here comes Sheen. We're even lower. And even now 653 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: I just was reading this article that Sheen. There's this 654 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: new one called Tamu that is overtaking Sheen, and it's 655 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: it's the fastest downloading app right now in the Apple Store. 656 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: And so to your point, there's no point of view there. 657 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: They're just we sell the cheapest closed, and someone's like, well, 658 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: then we can sell even cheaper. 659 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: That's right. I talk about this in the book I 660 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: call it the razor blade conundrum. It's that should I 661 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: sell a shaver that has two blades, and someone goes, oh, well, 662 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 2: I shall sell, say, a shaver that has three blades, 663 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 2: so the shave is closer. Someone goes, oh, I want 664 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: to closer shave somebody three blades. Then I go, well, 665 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 2: wait a minute, well mine has four blades and it vibrates. 666 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 2: And someone says, well, mine has five blades, and it 667 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: vibrates and excreets alivir lotion, and before long there are 668 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: eighty five blades on the shaver. There's nothing left that 669 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 2: we can add to to continuing innovation. So what do 670 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 2: we have to do? Drop the price? Now we're in 671 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: commodity land, like this is what happens. I mean, I 672 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: remember growing up there was no pizza chain better than 673 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: Pizza Hut. Growing up, Pizza Hut was like the pinnacle. 674 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 2: We get Pizza Hut. Okay, Mom, okay, Dad, you're really 675 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: excited about that, right, Little Caesar says, oh, all pizza 676 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 2: is five dollars. 677 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: Boom. 678 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: You cut the entire you cut the legs off of 679 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 2: the entire industry, and prices just drop. Now it's a 680 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: complete commodity right, Like, it's just like whatever is the 681 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 2: cheapest within you know, a certain consideration set of of 682 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 2: you know, similar tastes or similar preceived value. But otherwise, man, 683 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: like we were just competing on how many pepperoni you 684 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 2: could put on the pizza, where you know how much 685 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 2: cheese you can have on it and what the price is. 686 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 2: Like that is bad news, Bears. These brands don't stand 687 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: for anything. And we know this intuitively because we go 688 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: the brand stands for something, but what really means the 689 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: brands stands in for something, something meaningful, some ideology beyond 690 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: what they do. 691 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,600 Speaker 1: I love this, This is awesome. So Marcus, where can 692 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: people get your book for the culture? Where is it available? 693 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: Where can they get it? What side? 694 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 2: What places it's available? Where all books are sold? So 695 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: online you can go to the Amazons of the world, 696 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 2: the Bards and Nobles of the world, or you go 697 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 2: to my website mark to the C M A R C, 698 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 2: T O T H e C dot com and it 699 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: can direct you to stores there as well. 700 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: Okay, and no, I just want to thank you. Is 701 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: there anything that we didn't care? We'll we'll we'll put 702 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 1: your roll for you. Guys listening we'll put the link 703 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: to his book in the show notes, so you guys 704 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: can go ahead and grab yourself a copy. I suggested, 705 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: especially if you so many of our listeners you know, 706 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 1: are interested in business or starting a business, but also 707 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,439 Speaker 1: too if you're looking to shift the way you think 708 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: about money and how you and your family navigate, so 709 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: you can see like, oh, I actually don't have to 710 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: behave in this way as it relates to my personal 711 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,720 Speaker 1: finances or my business. So anything I didn't say, anything 712 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,439 Speaker 1: you want to share with the people as a last 713 00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: parting gift for us. 714 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 2: I mean, you hit on so many, so much richness, 715 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 2: and the last will be this is that the world 716 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 2: is not objective. It's subjective. Right, Things aren't the way 717 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 2: they are, they are the way that we are. And 718 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 2: if we want to change our world, and we want 719 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 2: to change the world around us, then we got to 720 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: see the world differently and it starts with changing our perspective. 721 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: And I love that. Just let you know that, like 722 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: you get to decide. So yay, thanks, So we had 723 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: awesome guests, see Mandy, I mean we get outre because 724 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: Mandy's journalist, you know, so she's usually like you know, 725 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: the lead or whatever, but you know, without Mandy, I'm 726 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: still here. So I just want to say thank you 727 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: so much for coming. All the links are going to 728 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: be in the show notes to everybody, and just like 729 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: I hope you stay connected. Marcus, we want to hear 730 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: more about your book. 731 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: My absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me. 732 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 1: You're welcome, heyba FAM. We could not do this show 733 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,800 Speaker 1: without your support or the support of our team behind this. 734 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 2: The Brown Ambition Podcast is produced by Imani Crosby and 735 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 2: Dennis Stanplinsky is our in house tech guru. I am 736 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: your co host Mandy Woodrif Santos, and we will see 737 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 2: y'all next week, BA Fam.