WEBVTT - Daniel Weiss on the Met’s Legacy 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.640 This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:11.119 Thing from My Heart Radio. Imagine wandering through a priceless 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:16.920 collection of artwork, Greek sculptures, ancient Egyptian artifacts, primitive pottery, 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.239 and of course some of the most famous paintings by 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:27.120 masters throughout human history. Mone Dega, Rothko and Pollock. Now 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.000 imagine you are the steward for their future preservation. For 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.559 my guest today, that's just another day at the office. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:39.640 Daniel Weiss has been President and CEO of the Metropolitan 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:44.280 Museum of Art since two thousand fifteen. He has navigated 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:48.640 the MET through a series of challenges, including a budget deficit, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.480 the COVID crisis, and the removal of the controversial Sackler 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:58.040 name from the building. Prior to running the MET, Weiss 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.840 had his feet firmly planted in academia. He was dean 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.320 of the Creakers School of Arts and Sciences at Johns 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.959 Hopkins University and served as president of both Lafayette and 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:15.200 Haverford Colleges. He has also published several books on art history. 0:01:16.080 --> 0:01:20.480 The MET is the largest museum in North America for 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:25.319 an internationally renowned institution of such stature. I was curious 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.479 what percentage of the METS visitors are native to the 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.959 United States. We actually do a lot of tracking of visitors, 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.600 and let's use numbers prior to COVID, when there is 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:40.640 a more representative international audience, about a third of our visitors. 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:43.520 And prior to COVID, we had about seven million people 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.800 come through our doors every year, making us one of 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:48.800 the busiest art museums in the world. About a third 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:50.920 of them came from all over the world, and the 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:53.919 other two thirds would when I think of it as thirds, 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.480 one third from New York and the New York metropolitan area, 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.120 the next third from the rest of the country, and 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:03.040 then the world, and so really nice balance and lots 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.720 of different countries represented. Because I was always curious about that, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.079 and there was one assumes that the MET is on 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:11.280 in equal footing in the world of the museums with 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:15.600 those other museums. But I always wonder if they occupy 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.680 a different space because they're in Europe and the history 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.880 that's there, and the way, you know Franless old line 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:25.400 about New York, whenever they tear down a building, they 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:29.520 always put up an uglier building, and New York sometimes 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.000 seems to have its cultural priorities fixed in the right places. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.080 Sometimes they don't. Yeah, it's an interesting point. If we 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:40.280 think about the competitive landscape for museums, the busiest art museum, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.360 the most well attended in the world is the Louver. 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.880 At that time they would see about nine million visitors 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:49.160 a year, and that's because everybody who's anywhere near Paris 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.040 is going to go make a visit to the Louver. 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:53.640 New York is a cultural center, and I think a 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.880 slightly different way, maybe more like London. People come here 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.480 for theater, they come from museums, they come from shopping 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:03.560 and restaur unts. And within that framework, the met is 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:07.639 the largest tourist attraction in New York City, indoor tourist attraction. 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:09.760 So many people who would come for any number of 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:11.959 reasons would make a pilgrimage to the mat, which is 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:14.440 why our numbers are so large. So in many ways 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.440 we're like London or Paris with regard to visitors. Now 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:22.920 you have mentioned and material that I read that you 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.600 were breaking records prior to COVID, that the museum was 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.960 doing fantastically well right before the floor fell out. What 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:33.480 would that like for you to have achieved to where 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:35.760 you were winning the World Series. Then all of a sudden, 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:38.480 you break your leg. What was that like? It was 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:43.240 very discouraging. Exactly right. We had over the last probably decade, 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.040 we had been working to build increasingly diverse programming, to 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.000 bring in larger audiences, to reconnect with people who might 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:52.880 not come to the museum regularly. So our numbers were 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.720 climbing in remarkably good ways because we were connecting with 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.680 larger audiences. And then with the advent of COVID, of course, 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:04.120 we went from having terrific audiences to being closed. And we, 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.080 like the rest of us everyone, we just closed and 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.440 overnight the museum was shut to the public entirely. When 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:11.440 when made the decision to close, it was a very 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:13.839 obviously a big deal. We were the first cultural institution 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:15.920 in New York City to do it, and by the 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.440 end of the day they all had closed, including Broadway, 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:21.800 And I thought when we made the decision, this was 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:23.919 a momentous one, and we're probably going to be closed 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.520 for I don't know, maybe three weeks because how long 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:28.520 does it take COVID to run through people and we're done? 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.479 What did I know? What did any of us know? 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.520 We were closed for five and a half months, and 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.680 prior to that the record was maybe two days three days. 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.400 So it was a remarkable experience to be closed entirely 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.919 for almost half a year. An organization like this, you 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:47.400 have a very very substantial endowment, and when you reach 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:49.279 that COVID period or do you sort of have to 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.440 drain down obviously that endowment to pay the bills. Well, 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.320 we wanted to exercise discipline not to diminish resources that 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:59.760 really we are holding in part in stewardship for the future. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.800 So we made an emergency financial plan once we closed 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:05.840 we wanted to, and we did keep all of our 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.960 staff on payroll throughout the period of our closure, and 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.120 that meant that we had a lot of cost and 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:15.480 not a lot of revenue. Of our operating expenses are 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.560 covered by our endowment. So we were luckier than most 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.000 places who didn't have that kind of savings account to 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.040 draw on. And I'm talking about just the proceeds each year, 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.200 the return on endowment, so we weren't spending principle, we 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.200 were spending the proceeds and we had We actually restructured 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:34.200 our organization very quickly to try to cut costs in 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:36.960 order not to drain the endowment, and we didn't. We 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.920 never touched any principle in the endowment to get through. 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:43.120 It wasn't easy, but it was we thought important. Is 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.520 there a percentage I'm assuming there's some percentage of the 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.159 staff of the museum there people with disparate tasks and 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.479 so forth. Are they union? Yes, we have about prior 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.960 to COVID about two thousand staff. We now have about 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:58.240 sevent prior to COVID at the time COVID arrived, and 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.800 of that about union and the rest were non union. 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:04.760 But as you can imagine, the met as a place 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.880 with hundreds of different jobs, and half of them had 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:11.720 to be fulfilled. Even if we were closed. The collections 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:14.000 have to still be taken care of, the building still 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.640 has to be guarded. We have to do all of 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.640 those things. So we had hundreds and hundreds of people 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.359 coming to the museum every day when the museum was 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:26.000 entirely closed, but everybody was on payroll throughout that period. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.200 I'm wondering, like other people I know who are hired, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:35.000 who have intense creative backgrounds. And Chasson, who is the 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:37.720 executive director of the Hampton's Film Festival, is a very 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:40.480 good example of someone who arrived on the job and 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:42.960 was one of the only, I think, if not the only, 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.799 person to serve as as executive director who had actually 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.120 been a filmmaker. She was a film producer prior to that, 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.920 everybody else had been an administration only. And she arrived 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.160 and she accomplished, but her predecessors couldn't. Which She balanced 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.440 the books, She pulled the sword out of the stone 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.479 in terms of the finances of the festival, and you 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:03.599 could tell that it was something that was a tremendous 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:07.880 accomplishment for her. When you arrived, you didn't think that 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.720 you were going to be too heavily involved in accounting work, 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.520 and then you then succeeded. Describe what you found and 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.400 what path that set you on career was. Yeah, So 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.400 when I got to the AT, my background is I'm 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:22.400 an art historian by training. I spent most of my 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.880 career doing scholarship and teaching and then as a college president. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.080 But this was my first museum job. It happens I 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.720 have an MBA and I had a business career early on, 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:34.360 so I know both of those worlds and I've spent 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.040 my career doing both. But when I arrived at the 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:39.760 mat I won't say that I anticipated it would be 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:41.920 a sinecure that I would expect it was going to 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:45.480 be easy. But I thought things were stable financially. The 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.559 place is big and wealthy, and everything seems to work well. 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.760 And there was a very modest deficit that I could 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:54.000 discern on the financial statements. But I also had a 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.560 hard time figuring out what was in the financial statements, 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.240 which was a warning sign to me. They should be 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.080 easier to read, and I knew how to read them, 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.280 but I couldn't. So as we dug into it fairly quickly, 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:06.880 it became clear to me that there was a much 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:10.400 bigger problem and the met actually had very substantial deficits 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.400 that have been accruing over the last few years. Did 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.800 someone expose that to you? Where you found it yourself? 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:18.800 Were both? Mostly I found it by asking the right 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.800 questions of financial people. I can't understand this number, where 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:24.200 does it come from? And how does it relate to 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.840 this number? And as the answer started to come to me, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.360 it was clear there was a more complicated story that 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.760 adjustments in financial statements had been made in the ways 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:36.880 they were presented in order to solve problems in the 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.760 near term balance little like you spend too much on 0:08:39.800 --> 0:08:41.400 your credit card and before you know it, you've got 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.120 too much. Your balance is really big. So what do 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.800 you do? You get another credit card and shift the balances. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.080 It was like that, and I became very uncomfortable. I 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:50.959 think what we really needed to do is take apart 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.360 the big problem and figure out what the magnitude was. 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.840 And it was very substantial. So I ended up spending 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:00.800 many much of my first couple of years of the 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.400 MET not being an art guy, but being a numbers guy, 0:09:04.480 --> 0:09:06.800 because that was the problem on the ground. And did 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.440 you find that solving that problem the Rubik's cube if 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.040 you will, of the finances of the net like other 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:14.800 people I know, did you become addicted to that? Did 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.680 you be where you? Like? God? This is really because 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.880 if you don't solve with the institutions, this is my 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.200 opinion and my experience from other boards have been on 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.280 that you need to solve that problem first. Everything you 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:27.079 don't have the money for programming, if you don't have 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:33.280 your books right, You're exactly right. Institutions like the met universities, theaters, 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.839 if they don't have strong stable finances, it's very hard 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.520 to do difficult work and take chances and make investments 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.559 and ideas that are a little bit speculative, because any 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.360 failure is going to cripple the organization. So at the MET, 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:50.320 just as you say, we got caught up in figuring 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.880 out how to solve that problem because the Met deserve 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.400 to have strong and stable finances, and by their way, 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.560 we were pretty rich place. So's it would have been 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.120 a harder job to be doing this sort of ice. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.079 It didn't have an endowment like we do. So when 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.240 the art history guy has to go and dig into 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:09.439 the get into the coal mine of finances, there does 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:11.160 the art history I have to find another guy to 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.480 cover the artistic side, to cover his back, just to 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:15.840 hire people to do a job that you ordinarily would 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:17.719 have been doing well. The way they met structured a 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:21.240 little bit like a university. My job as the president 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.400 was to oversee the operations of the institution, and there 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.040 was a director who's a little bit like in a 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.439 university the provost who oversees all the academic stuff. So 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:33.199 we have and had a director who oversaw the exhibitions, 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:36.240 the collection who was at the time I arrived, it 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.000 was Tom Campbell. When he left. We brought in a 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.920 new director, and so I never had to worry for 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:44.439 I was doing both jobs for about a year and 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.240 a half, and to your point, I did have to 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:49.640 get help. I could not do all those things. So 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.200 I relied on some of the staff that was already there, 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.600 the administrative staff, to take on a larger role, and 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:57.360 they stepped right up and it was great. But I 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.520 was still focused, primarily, as you say, on the finances, 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.559 because if you don't get that right, then you really can't. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:05.880 You can't tell people their employment is security. You can't 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:07.760 tell them we can fund that exhibition, we can't buy 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.720 that work of art. Everything shuts down if you don't 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.480 have stable operating For the person that's there now is Max. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.800 How do you pronounce the name Homeline. He's been there 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.080 now for about four and a half years. You've written 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:23.280 seven books. And people asked about Sackler and the Sackler 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.160 d n A is in a lot of institutions in 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.120 this country and around the world, and they, of course 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.840 had their problems. And I'm wondering, is that something that 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.680 is in your field, and in any field that's that's 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.000 having to raise massive amounts of money. I mean millions, 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:43.760 about millions and eventually billions of dollars of crew in 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.760 your in your reserves. The Sacklers, it's an obvious one. 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.840 They wind up having this horrible litigation problems and public 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:54.559 relations debacle. But are there other people who it's it's 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.920 not in the paper? Are you like on guard constantly 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.920 vetting sore is of money and having to deal with people? 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.560 Is there a constant managing of people what they want 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.000 to attach to their gifts. Yeah. I think there's two 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.160 issues here that are both interesting to think about. One is, 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.640 are their individuals who their connection to their money is 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.280 such that we might not want to accept a gift 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:24.400 because they have questionable background or they're involved in things. Yes. 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.360 In fact, I'll speak openly about this. The Saudi government 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.480 approached us about a partnership right after show Get was killed. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.040 We were not interested in partnering with the leadership of 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:36.280 the Saudi government at that time because we didn't feel 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:39.679 that it was the proper association for us. There wasn't 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:42.600 all of the evidence at the time available to determine 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.880 who was really responsible. But the response of the Saudi 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.640 government was not forthcoming enough to give us satisfaction that 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.400 we should invest are the integrity of our brand in 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.360 that partnership, we didn't work with them. I would say 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.360 this with regard to the issue of who we work with. 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:01.040 The primary goal for us is to fund our mission, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.760 and it is almost entirely funded philanthropically, so we don't 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.000 collect the resources, we can't do the work, and therefore 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.080 our job is not to vet donors so much as 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.880 to advance our mission. But there are people who cross 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.080 the line, and we have over the years been approached 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:19.800 by people that we think they're not really appropriate for 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:21.840 us to be working with because of the way they 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:24.880 raise the money or their stature positions in the world. 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.360 But I do that on an exceptional basis because my 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:31.480 job is not to determine who's MET worthy as a 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.160 club member, but how do we fund the mission? And 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:37.480 so there are times we won't do it. The other issue, 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:41.160 which you raise quite rightly, is how do you deal 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:43.559 with donors who have ideas, And there's two kinds that 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.160 are problematic, where they say, I know what you're doing 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:47.600 at the MET that's all great, but I don't want 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:48.880 to do that. I want you to do this and this, 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:50.719 and I have an idea for a different kind of thing, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:53.400 and you have to have enough strength and integrity. Is 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:55.560 an institution to say, Alex, thanks so much for your 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.320 offer of a hundred million, it's great, but we're not 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.120 going to do that. We're not interested in that. We 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.319 have a strategic and these are the things we'd love 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:02.880 to do, and if you want to help us with those, 0:14:03.360 --> 0:14:05.360 we'd really be delighted. But we're not going to build 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.760 a new art museum in St. Louis right now just 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.360 because you think that would be great. And that happens. 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.960 And then sometimes people say they want their name to 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.760 be represented in ways that is challenging. For example, there's 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.800 a long history in New York people making capital gifts 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.320 that are in perpetuity. So Alec Baldwin's name is going 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.480 to be on that wing forever forever. But a hundred 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.880 years from now you ain't around and I ain't around, 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.000 and who's going to pay to fix it? And I'm 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.040 pretty sure the average person on the street might want 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.440 to not pay to have that name live forever. So 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.760 there needs to be fiscal responsibility about the long term. 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.480 If the institution is supposed to last forever, who's going 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.200 to carry that obligation long after you're not able in 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.240 the way that they had to buy out the Fisher 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.960 family for Giffen, they had to pay the Fisher family 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.960 an amount of money to reverse the perpetuity gift. Exactly right. 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.080 That's a perfect example, and that was a thoughtful way 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.000 to solve that problem. But each time, so we don't 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.880 really do perpetuity gifts anymore because you know, fifty years, 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:09.480 a hundred years, how about that? Is that going to 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.640 be okay? Your grandchildren will have a chance to see it, 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.280 and after that, all bets are off. And most donors 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.320 appreciate that, but some don't. Some are more interested in 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.120 some other way to make sure their their name lasts 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:23.800 longer than that. But our job is to be really 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.560 thoughtful about the well being of the institution long after 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.720 we're gone. So they're all kinds of issues associated with 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:33.120 dealing with donors that are interesting. They're usually positive, even 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.280 if their challenges to work through. Most people, they lay 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.200 out their agenda and you solve it with them, and 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:41.040 it's entirely positive. One thing that occurred to me is 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.480 that all the art that hangs on the walls, all 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:47.560 of it that occupies a space in your facility and 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:50.520 in your counterparts, the artists are dead, and at the 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.360 Museum of Modern Art they're not all dead. And there 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.200 seems to be a sense in my mind, especially living 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.520 in New York, that there is a world of people 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:03.560 who are working awfully hard to expand and augment their 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:06.120 status in the art world to get their art to 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.480 hang on that wall. There's a drama there if you want. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.800 I find that kind of interesting. What do you think 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.240 are the things that people have to deal with at 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:16.960 MoMA that you're happy you don't have to deal with? Yeah, 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.360 So moment's job is to be far more leading edge 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.120 and engaged in the contemporary art world than ours is. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.240 So they're willing to quite appropriately take risks. They may 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:29.520 do an exhibition of an artist that may not actually 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.920 prove to be of long standing importance in the world 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:35.400 of history of art. We think of ourselves and this 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.560 isn't at all in a pedantic way, but as a 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.720 where the cannon. So if something comes into the met, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.400 it's arrived in a way that is, in this sense, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.680 establishing the place of that artist in history. That's at 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:50.240 least how we think about ourselves, and a lot of 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.480 people think about us. So there's no question that living 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:56.880 artists like Jasper John's or David Hackney belong in the MET, 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:58.800 and they are in the MET, and there are other 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.520 living artists where it's not clear yet whether or not 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:05.160 time will tell, yeah, exactly. But that said, we actually 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.639 do a fair amount of contemporary art nowadays, more than 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.399 we used to. And we don't compete directly with MoMA. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:14.960 They have an extraordinary program that leads the world, but 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.440 ours is excellent too, and we just are, i think 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.720 a little bit more focused on the long term importance 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:23.880 of that artist, because that's sort of what we do, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.719 and because our collections are so diverse across time and history, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.639 we look for artists that connect in new ways to 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:32.960 the other art we have in our place. So we 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:36.159 might have a contemporary artist come who actually is basing 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:39.920 their work on traditions in our Egyptian department or other areas, 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.320 because then we can show those connections in different ways. 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:50.800 Daniel Weiss. If you enjoy conversations about world famous works 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.679 of art, check out my episode with Eric Shiner, former 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.680 director of the Andy Warhol Museum. The Dollar as Sign 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:03.720 Paintings to hundred one dollar bills was his very exactly. 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.919 So that's in early nineteen sixties work nine two. So 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:12.000 he was being dismissed for that. He was and um, 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:13.639 you know a lot of people said that it was 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:17.359 too tacky to paint money. It was too ghosh. And 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.920 when we look at those paintings today, what's more indicative 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.199 of the early nineteen eighties in New York than the 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:28.800 almighty Dollar? He hit it square on the head. To 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:32.480 hear more of my conversation with Eric Schiner, go to 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:37.560 Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Daniel Weiss 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.320 shares why he made the jump from academia to running 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:52.720 one of the largest art institutions in the world. I'm 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.479 Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.280 addition to being President and CEO of the metropol Alton 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.439 Museum of Art, Daniel Weiss is also the author of 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.720 several books on art history, including France and the Holy 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.800 Land and Art and Crusade in the Age of Saint Louis. 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.199 Yet one of Weiss's books stands out from the others. 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:20.080 It's entitled In That Time, Michael O'Donnell and the Tragic 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:23.800 Era of Vietnam. I wanted to know how he came 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.600 to write a book so divergent from the rest of 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.520 his catalog. It came about, probably about fifteen years ago. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.360 I came across the book by Harold Evans, the great publisher. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.320 He had produced a book called The American Century, which 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:40.320 is really a beautiful book on the political history of 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:43.119 American the twentieth century. And in that book there was 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.320 a small section on the Vietnam War. Within that section 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:48.600 there was a photograph of this very nice, shilking young man, 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:51.399 and below at a poem he had written while he 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.080 was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. And I was so 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.080 moved by that poem, the last stanza of which says, 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.200 and in that time, when men decide and feel safe 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.640 to call this war insane, don't forget those gentle heroes 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.959 you left behind. And right after he wrote it, he 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:11.320 was shot down while rescuing other soldiers in Vietnam in 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:15.760 March of n When I read Evans' book, it said 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.160 he's still missing in action. This was in the nineties. 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:20.960 I got interested in just learning more about who this 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.480 guy was, why he wrote that poem, and somehow I 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.920 felt like he was calling upon us to pay attention 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.760 to what happened to these guys. I'm young enough to 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.159 have not been drafted, but I'm old enough to remember 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.080 the Vietnam War really well. I was in high school. 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.480 It was on TV every day. Neighbors of ours went 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:40.880 to war, Yes, exactly, we all know people who did 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:44.000 of our generation. And so as I learned more about 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.880 this guy, I discovered a story that was extraordinarily powerful. 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.960 In the book I ended up writing is about the 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.400 life of one innocent American kid, but it's placed within 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.600 the context of what happened to our country. So I 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.320 trace what happened to Michael O'Donnell as I'm just gribbing 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.480 what Lyndon Johnson is doing, Richard Nixon is doing, and 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.080 how their decisions affected him on the ground. And then 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.760