1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. Imagine wandering through a priceless 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:16,920 Speaker 1: collection of artwork, Greek sculptures, ancient Egyptian artifacts, primitive pottery, 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: and of course some of the most famous paintings by 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: masters throughout human history. Mone Dega, Rothko and Pollock. Now 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: imagine you are the steward for their future preservation. For 7 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: my guest today, that's just another day at the office. 8 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: Daniel Weiss has been President and CEO of the Metropolitan 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: Museum of Art since two thousand fifteen. He has navigated 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: the MET through a series of challenges, including a budget deficit, 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: the COVID crisis, and the removal of the controversial Sackler 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: name from the building. Prior to running the MET, Weiss 13 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: had his feet firmly planted in academia. He was dean 14 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: of the Creakers School of Arts and Sciences at Johns 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: Hopkins University and served as president of both Lafayette and 16 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: Haverford Colleges. He has also published several books on art history. 17 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: The MET is the largest museum in North America for 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: an internationally renowned institution of such stature. I was curious 19 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: what percentage of the METS visitors are native to the 20 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 1: United States. We actually do a lot of tracking of visitors, 21 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: and let's use numbers prior to COVID, when there is 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: a more representative international audience, about a third of our visitors. 23 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: And prior to COVID, we had about seven million people 24 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: come through our doors every year, making us one of 25 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: the busiest art museums in the world. About a third 26 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: of them came from all over the world, and the 27 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,919 Speaker 1: other two thirds would when I think of it as thirds, 28 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: one third from New York and the New York metropolitan area, 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: the next third from the rest of the country, and 30 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: then the world, and so really nice balance and lots 31 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: of different countries represented. Because I was always curious about that, 32 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: and there was one assumes that the MET is on 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: in equal footing in the world of the museums with 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: those other museums. But I always wonder if they occupy 35 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 1: a different space because they're in Europe and the history 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: that's there, and the way, you know Franless old line 37 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 1: about New York, whenever they tear down a building, they 38 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: always put up an uglier building, and New York sometimes 39 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: seems to have its cultural priorities fixed in the right places. 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes they don't. Yeah, it's an interesting point. If we 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: think about the competitive landscape for museums, the busiest art museum, 42 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: the most well attended in the world is the Louver. 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: At that time they would see about nine million visitors 44 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: a year, and that's because everybody who's anywhere near Paris 45 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: is going to go make a visit to the Louver. 46 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: New York is a cultural center, and I think a 47 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: slightly different way, maybe more like London. People come here 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: for theater, they come from museums, they come from shopping 49 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: and restaur unts. And within that framework, the met is 50 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: the largest tourist attraction in New York City, indoor tourist attraction. 51 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: So many people who would come for any number of 52 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: reasons would make a pilgrimage to the mat, which is 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: why our numbers are so large. So in many ways 54 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: we're like London or Paris with regard to visitors. Now 55 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: you have mentioned and material that I read that you 56 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: were breaking records prior to COVID, that the museum was 57 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: doing fantastically well right before the floor fell out. What 58 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: would that like for you to have achieved to where 59 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: you were winning the World Series. Then all of a sudden, 60 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: you break your leg. What was that like? It was 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: very discouraging. Exactly right. We had over the last probably decade, 62 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: we had been working to build increasingly diverse programming, to 63 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: bring in larger audiences, to reconnect with people who might 64 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: not come to the museum regularly. So our numbers were 65 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: climbing in remarkably good ways because we were connecting with 66 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: larger audiences. And then with the advent of COVID, of course, 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: we went from having terrific audiences to being closed. And we, 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: like the rest of us everyone, we just closed and 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: overnight the museum was shut to the public entirely. When 70 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: when made the decision to close, it was a very 71 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,839 Speaker 1: obviously a big deal. We were the first cultural institution 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: in New York City to do it, and by the 73 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: end of the day they all had closed, including Broadway, 74 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: And I thought when we made the decision, this was 75 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: a momentous one, and we're probably going to be closed 76 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: for I don't know, maybe three weeks because how long 77 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: does it take COVID to run through people and we're done? 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: What did I know? What did any of us know? 79 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: We were closed for five and a half months, and 80 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: prior to that the record was maybe two days three days. 81 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: So it was a remarkable experience to be closed entirely 82 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: for almost half a year. An organization like this, you 83 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: have a very very substantial endowment, and when you reach 84 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: that COVID period or do you sort of have to 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: drain down obviously that endowment to pay the bills. Well, 86 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: we wanted to exercise discipline not to diminish resources that 87 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: really we are holding in part in stewardship for the future. 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: So we made an emergency financial plan once we closed 89 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: we wanted to, and we did keep all of our 90 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: staff on payroll throughout the period of our closure, and 91 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: that meant that we had a lot of cost and 92 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: not a lot of revenue. Of our operating expenses are 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: covered by our endowment. So we were luckier than most 94 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: places who didn't have that kind of savings account to 95 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: draw on. And I'm talking about just the proceeds each year, 96 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 1: the return on endowment, so we weren't spending principle, we 97 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: were spending the proceeds and we had We actually restructured 98 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: our organization very quickly to try to cut costs in 99 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: order not to drain the endowment, and we didn't. We 100 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: never touched any principle in the endowment to get through. 101 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: It wasn't easy, but it was we thought important. Is 102 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: there a percentage I'm assuming there's some percentage of the 103 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: staff of the museum there people with disparate tasks and 104 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: so forth. Are they union? Yes, we have about prior 105 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: to COVID about two thousand staff. We now have about 106 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: sevent prior to COVID at the time COVID arrived, and 107 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: of that about union and the rest were non union. 108 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: But as you can imagine, the met as a place 109 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: with hundreds of different jobs, and half of them had 110 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 1: to be fulfilled. Even if we were closed. The collections 111 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: have to still be taken care of, the building still 112 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: has to be guarded. We have to do all of 113 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: those things. So we had hundreds and hundreds of people 114 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: coming to the museum every day when the museum was 115 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: entirely closed, but everybody was on payroll throughout that period. 116 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, like other people I know who are hired, 117 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: who have intense creative backgrounds. And Chasson, who is the 118 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: executive director of the Hampton's Film Festival, is a very 119 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: good example of someone who arrived on the job and 120 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: was one of the only, I think, if not the only, 121 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,799 Speaker 1: person to serve as as executive director who had actually 122 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: been a filmmaker. She was a film producer prior to that, 123 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: everybody else had been an administration only. And she arrived 124 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: and she accomplished, but her predecessors couldn't. Which She balanced 125 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: the books, She pulled the sword out of the stone 126 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 1: in terms of the finances of the festival, and you 127 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: could tell that it was something that was a tremendous 128 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: accomplishment for her. When you arrived, you didn't think that 129 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: you were going to be too heavily involved in accounting work, 130 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: and then you then succeeded. Describe what you found and 131 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: what path that set you on career was. Yeah, So 132 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: when I got to the AT, my background is I'm 133 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: an art historian by training. I spent most of my 134 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: career doing scholarship and teaching and then as a college president. 135 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: But this was my first museum job. It happens I 136 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: have an MBA and I had a business career early on, 137 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: so I know both of those worlds and I've spent 138 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: my career doing both. But when I arrived at the 139 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: mat I won't say that I anticipated it would be 140 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: a sinecure that I would expect it was going to 141 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: be easy. But I thought things were stable financially. The 142 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 1: place is big and wealthy, and everything seems to work well. 143 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: And there was a very modest deficit that I could 144 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: discern on the financial statements. But I also had a 145 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: hard time figuring out what was in the financial statements, 146 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: which was a warning sign to me. They should be 147 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: easier to read, and I knew how to read them, 148 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: but I couldn't. So as we dug into it fairly quickly, 149 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: it became clear to me that there was a much 150 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: bigger problem and the met actually had very substantial deficits 151 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: that have been accruing over the last few years. Did 152 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: someone expose that to you? Where you found it yourself? 153 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: Were both? Mostly I found it by asking the right 154 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: questions of financial people. I can't understand this number, where 155 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: does it come from? And how does it relate to 156 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: this number? And as the answer started to come to me, 157 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: it was clear there was a more complicated story that 158 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: adjustments in financial statements had been made in the ways 159 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: they were presented in order to solve problems in the 160 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: near term balance little like you spend too much on 161 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: your credit card and before you know it, you've got 162 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: too much. Your balance is really big. So what do 163 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: you do? You get another credit card and shift the balances. 164 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: It was like that, and I became very uncomfortable. I 165 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: think what we really needed to do is take apart 166 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: the big problem and figure out what the magnitude was. 167 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: And it was very substantial. So I ended up spending 168 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: many much of my first couple of years of the 169 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: MET not being an art guy, but being a numbers guy, 170 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: because that was the problem on the ground. And did 171 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: you find that solving that problem the Rubik's cube if 172 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: you will, of the finances of the net like other 173 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: people I know, did you become addicted to that? Did 174 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: you be where you? Like? God? This is really because 175 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: if you don't solve with the institutions, this is my 176 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: opinion and my experience from other boards have been on 177 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: that you need to solve that problem first. Everything you 178 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,079 Speaker 1: don't have the money for programming, if you don't have 179 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: your books right, You're exactly right. Institutions like the met universities, theaters, 180 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: if they don't have strong stable finances, it's very hard 181 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: to do difficult work and take chances and make investments 182 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 1: and ideas that are a little bit speculative, because any 183 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: failure is going to cripple the organization. So at the MET, 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: just as you say, we got caught up in figuring 185 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: out how to solve that problem because the Met deserve 186 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: to have strong and stable finances, and by their way, 187 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: we were pretty rich place. So's it would have been 188 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: a harder job to be doing this sort of ice. 189 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: It didn't have an endowment like we do. So when 190 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: the art history guy has to go and dig into 191 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,439 Speaker 1: the get into the coal mine of finances, there does 192 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: the art history I have to find another guy to 193 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: cover the artistic side, to cover his back, just to 194 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: hire people to do a job that you ordinarily would 195 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 1: have been doing well. The way they met structured a 196 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: little bit like a university. My job as the president 197 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: was to oversee the operations of the institution, and there 198 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: was a director who's a little bit like in a 199 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: university the provost who oversees all the academic stuff. So 200 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: we have and had a director who oversaw the exhibitions, 201 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: the collection who was at the time I arrived, it 202 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: was Tom Campbell. When he left. We brought in a 203 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: new director, and so I never had to worry for 204 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: I was doing both jobs for about a year and 205 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: a half, and to your point, I did have to 206 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: get help. I could not do all those things. So 207 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: I relied on some of the staff that was already there, 208 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: the administrative staff, to take on a larger role, and 209 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: they stepped right up and it was great. But I 210 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: was still focused, primarily, as you say, on the finances, 211 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: because if you don't get that right, then you really can't. 212 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: You can't tell people their employment is security. You can't 213 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: tell them we can fund that exhibition, we can't buy 214 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: that work of art. Everything shuts down if you don't 215 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: have stable operating For the person that's there now is Max. 216 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: How do you pronounce the name Homeline. He's been there 217 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: now for about four and a half years. You've written 218 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: seven books. And people asked about Sackler and the Sackler 219 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 1: d n A is in a lot of institutions in 220 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: this country and around the world, and they, of course 221 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: had their problems. And I'm wondering, is that something that 222 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: is in your field, and in any field that's that's 223 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: having to raise massive amounts of money. I mean millions, 224 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: about millions and eventually billions of dollars of crew in 225 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: your in your reserves. The Sacklers, it's an obvious one. 226 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: They wind up having this horrible litigation problems and public 227 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 1: relations debacle. But are there other people who it's it's 228 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: not in the paper? Are you like on guard constantly 229 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: vetting sore is of money and having to deal with people? 230 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: Is there a constant managing of people what they want 231 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: to attach to their gifts. Yeah. I think there's two 232 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: issues here that are both interesting to think about. One is, 233 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: are their individuals who their connection to their money is 234 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: such that we might not want to accept a gift 235 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: because they have questionable background or they're involved in things. Yes. 236 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: In fact, I'll speak openly about this. The Saudi government 237 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: approached us about a partnership right after show Get was killed. 238 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: We were not interested in partnering with the leadership of 239 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 1: the Saudi government at that time because we didn't feel 240 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: that it was the proper association for us. There wasn't 241 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: all of the evidence at the time available to determine 242 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: who was really responsible. But the response of the Saudi 243 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: government was not forthcoming enough to give us satisfaction that 244 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: we should invest are the integrity of our brand in 245 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: that partnership, we didn't work with them. I would say 246 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: this with regard to the issue of who we work with. 247 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: The primary goal for us is to fund our mission, 248 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: and it is almost entirely funded philanthropically, so we don't 249 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: collect the resources, we can't do the work, and therefore 250 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: our job is not to vet donors so much as 251 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: to advance our mission. But there are people who cross 252 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: the line, and we have over the years been approached 253 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: by people that we think they're not really appropriate for 254 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: us to be working with because of the way they 255 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: raise the money or their stature positions in the world. 256 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: But I do that on an exceptional basis because my 257 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: job is not to determine who's MET worthy as a 258 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: club member, but how do we fund the mission? And 259 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: so there are times we won't do it. The other issue, 260 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: which you raise quite rightly, is how do you deal 261 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: with donors who have ideas, And there's two kinds that 262 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: are problematic, where they say, I know what you're doing 263 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: at the MET that's all great, but I don't want 264 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: to do that. I want you to do this and this, 265 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: and I have an idea for a different kind of thing, 266 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: and you have to have enough strength and integrity. Is 267 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: an institution to say, Alex, thanks so much for your 268 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: offer of a hundred million, it's great, but we're not 269 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: going to do that. We're not interested in that. We 270 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 1: have a strategic and these are the things we'd love 271 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: to do, and if you want to help us with those, 272 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: we'd really be delighted. But we're not going to build 273 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: a new art museum in St. Louis right now just 274 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: because you think that would be great. And that happens. 275 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: And then sometimes people say they want their name to 276 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: be represented in ways that is challenging. For example, there's 277 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: a long history in New York people making capital gifts 278 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: that are in perpetuity. So Alec Baldwin's name is going 279 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: to be on that wing forever forever. But a hundred 280 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: years from now you ain't around and I ain't around, 281 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: and who's going to pay to fix it? And I'm 282 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: pretty sure the average person on the street might want 283 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: to not pay to have that name live forever. So 284 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: there needs to be fiscal responsibility about the long term. 285 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: If the institution is supposed to last forever, who's going 286 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: to carry that obligation long after you're not able in 287 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: the way that they had to buy out the Fisher 288 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: family for Giffen, they had to pay the Fisher family 289 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: an amount of money to reverse the perpetuity gift. Exactly right. 290 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: That's a perfect example, and that was a thoughtful way 291 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: to solve that problem. But each time, so we don't 292 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: really do perpetuity gifts anymore because you know, fifty years, 293 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: a hundred years, how about that? Is that going to 294 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: be okay? Your grandchildren will have a chance to see it, 295 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: and after that, all bets are off. And most donors 296 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: appreciate that, but some don't. Some are more interested in 297 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: some other way to make sure their their name lasts 298 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: longer than that. But our job is to be really 299 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: thoughtful about the well being of the institution long after 300 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: we're gone. So they're all kinds of issues associated with 301 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: dealing with donors that are interesting. They're usually positive, even 302 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: if their challenges to work through. Most people, they lay 303 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: out their agenda and you solve it with them, and 304 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: it's entirely positive. One thing that occurred to me is 305 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: that all the art that hangs on the walls, all 306 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: of it that occupies a space in your facility and 307 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: in your counterparts, the artists are dead, and at the 308 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: Museum of Modern Art they're not all dead. And there 309 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: seems to be a sense in my mind, especially living 310 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: in New York, that there is a world of people 311 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: who are working awfully hard to expand and augment their 312 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: status in the art world to get their art to 313 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: hang on that wall. There's a drama there if you want. 314 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: I find that kind of interesting. What do you think 315 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: are the things that people have to deal with at 316 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: MoMA that you're happy you don't have to deal with? Yeah, 317 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: So moment's job is to be far more leading edge 318 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: and engaged in the contemporary art world than ours is. 319 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: So they're willing to quite appropriately take risks. They may 320 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: do an exhibition of an artist that may not actually 321 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: prove to be of long standing importance in the world 322 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: of history of art. We think of ourselves and this 323 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: isn't at all in a pedantic way, but as a 324 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: where the cannon. So if something comes into the met, 325 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: it's arrived in a way that is, in this sense, 326 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: establishing the place of that artist in history. That's at 327 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: least how we think about ourselves, and a lot of 328 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: people think about us. So there's no question that living 329 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: artists like Jasper John's or David Hackney belong in the MET, 330 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: and they are in the MET, and there are other 331 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: living artists where it's not clear yet whether or not 332 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: time will tell, yeah, exactly. But that said, we actually 333 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: do a fair amount of contemporary art nowadays, more than 334 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: we used to. And we don't compete directly with MoMA. 335 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: They have an extraordinary program that leads the world, but 336 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: ours is excellent too, and we just are, i think 337 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more focused on the long term importance 338 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: of that artist, because that's sort of what we do, 339 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 1: and because our collections are so diverse across time and history, 340 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: we look for artists that connect in new ways to 341 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: the other art we have in our place. So we 342 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 1: might have a contemporary artist come who actually is basing 343 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: their work on traditions in our Egyptian department or other areas, 344 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: because then we can show those connections in different ways. 345 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: Daniel Weiss. If you enjoy conversations about world famous works 346 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 1: of art, check out my episode with Eric Shiner, former 347 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: director of the Andy Warhol Museum. The Dollar as Sign 348 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: Paintings to hundred one dollar bills was his very exactly. 349 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: So that's in early nineteen sixties work nine two. So 350 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: he was being dismissed for that. He was and um, 351 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: you know a lot of people said that it was 352 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 1: too tacky to paint money. It was too ghosh. And 353 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: when we look at those paintings today, what's more indicative 354 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: of the early nineteen eighties in New York than the 355 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: almighty Dollar? He hit it square on the head. To 356 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: hear more of my conversation with Eric Schiner, go to 357 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Daniel Weiss 358 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: shares why he made the jump from academia to running 359 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: one of the largest art institutions in the world. I'm 360 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In 361 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: addition to being President and CEO of the metropol Alton 362 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: Museum of Art, Daniel Weiss is also the author of 363 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: several books on art history, including France and the Holy 364 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: Land and Art and Crusade in the Age of Saint Louis. 365 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: Yet one of Weiss's books stands out from the others. 366 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: It's entitled In That Time, Michael O'Donnell and the Tragic 367 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: Era of Vietnam. I wanted to know how he came 368 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: to write a book so divergent from the rest of 369 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: his catalog. It came about, probably about fifteen years ago. 370 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: I came across the book by Harold Evans, the great publisher. 371 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: He had produced a book called The American Century, which 372 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: is really a beautiful book on the political history of 373 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: American the twentieth century. And in that book there was 374 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: a small section on the Vietnam War. Within that section 375 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: there was a photograph of this very nice, shilking young man, 376 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: and below at a poem he had written while he 377 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam. And I was so 378 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: moved by that poem, the last stanza of which says, 379 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: and in that time, when men decide and feel safe 380 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: to call this war insane, don't forget those gentle heroes 381 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 1: you left behind. And right after he wrote it, he 382 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: was shot down while rescuing other soldiers in Vietnam in 383 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: March of n When I read Evans' book, it said 384 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: he's still missing in action. This was in the nineties. 385 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: I got interested in just learning more about who this 386 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: guy was, why he wrote that poem, and somehow I 387 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: felt like he was calling upon us to pay attention 388 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: to what happened to these guys. I'm young enough to 389 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: have not been drafted, but I'm old enough to remember 390 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War really well. I was in high school. 391 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: It was on TV every day. Neighbors of ours went 392 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 1: to war, Yes, exactly, we all know people who did 393 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 1: of our generation. And so as I learned more about 394 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: this guy, I discovered a story that was extraordinarily powerful. 395 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: In the book I ended up writing is about the 396 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 1: life of one innocent American kid, but it's placed within 397 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: the context of what happened to our country. So I 398 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: trace what happened to Michael O'Donnell as I'm just gribbing 399 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: what Lyndon Johnson is doing, Richard Nixon is doing, and 400 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: how their decisions affected him on the ground. And then 401 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: I talked about his poetry, which was very powerful. And 402 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: he was missing in action for twenty eight years, and 403 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: during that period he was dead. His family didn't know that, 404 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: and for twenty eight years, about three times a year 405 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: they got a letter from the army saying, we're writing 406 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: to update you on the status of your son. A 407 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: Caucasian male was noticed on the streets of Saigon resembling 408 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: your son they were doing this meticulous job of accounting 409 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: for the whereabouts of their son. It was excruciating for 410 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: them because in fact, they believed he was dead. So 411 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: I chronicle in the book what it means to be 412 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: missing in action to the people who are left around. 413 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: And then there's a chapter in the book they actually 414 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: found the remains in Cambodia, and I write about, how 415 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: do you find the remains of a soldier soldiers that 416 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: were killed thirty years ago in a tropical jungle in 417 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: a helicopter went down in flames, and we're talking about 418 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 1: tooth fragments and bone fragments embedded in the ground. How 419 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: did they find them? Some Cambodian farmers who knew that landscape. 420 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: This was thirty miles away from a teeny little town 421 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere. And the American government spends 422 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars a year looking for and 423 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: restituting the remains of American soldiers around the world. So 424 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: Cambodian farmers said, I saw remains looks like a helicopter, 425 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 1: and he told them where. He actually lead this team 426 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: in on the raft and they had to float down 427 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,880 Speaker 1: the river for days on this raft. To get into 428 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: the jungle to find this helicopter. When they did, the 429 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: American team mobilized, they cleared the landing zone, they brought 430 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: in helicopters, and they set up an excavation team to 431 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 1: the rusty hall of the helicopter, and their pictures in 432 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: the book of what that helicopter looked like. But if 433 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: you were thirty feet away from it, you wouldn't see it. 434 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: And so it's a miracle that it was found. And 435 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to give some color to the story of 436 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: how do you find these people? And then Michael was 437 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: buried with full honors at Arlington Cemetery two weeks before 438 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: nine eleven. So the arc of the book is about 439 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: one mistake, which we would call Vietnam and how for 440 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: this family. That story endured for thirty years, right up 441 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: until the nine eleven and then we embarked on a 442 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: whole new chapter of policies that were controversial and questionable 443 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: and lead to the result of dead Americans for not 444 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: necessarily a good reason. In Afghanistan and Iraq, war is 445 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: a terrible thing, but it also generates incredible stories that 446 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: we are drawn to that we're curious about. That means 447 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: something to us. Well, I mean, obviously there was a 448 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: deep emotional connection you had to this story. Only one 449 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: such book in your quiver? Where did you were there 450 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: other books you wanted to write? There were not about 451 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: your profession. Now there are. For whatever reason, I have 452 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: always been drawn to stories like that one about people 453 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: who have done something larger than themselves. I wrote a 454 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: series of articles about a young woman who was the 455 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: first civilian publicly executed in the Soviet Union and Second 456 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: World War, and her identity was not known until I 457 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: published her identity in nineties. I was drawn to that story. Remarkable. 458 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,879 Speaker 1: We have photographs of this event, and she was a 459 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: great heroine. And so I'm drawn to these stories that 460 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: that I think are are related to what it means 461 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: to be human and understanding the nature of sacrifice and 462 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: people at their best, people at their best, at their best. No, no, 463 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: no greater story than that. Now. In your career, which 464 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 1: prior to coming to run the met it was pretty 465 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: much exclusively academia, And you were at Lafayette for eight years, 466 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: and then you went to Haverford and you're at Haverford 467 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: for two years. Did you just have enough of academia 468 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: at that point? What was the in the Godfather parlance, 469 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: what was the offer they made you that you couldn't 470 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: refuse that you exited academia. Yeah, well, I did have 471 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: a brief business career. I went to business school and 472 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 1: I was a management consultant in New York for four 473 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: years before I went to do art history, so I 474 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: always had a little bit of both. Haverford's a great place, 475 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: as you know, and I really enjoyed being there. It 476 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: has a very special community and intellectual culture that I loved, 477 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: and I was very happy there. But I got a 478 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: call about coming to the MET, which is a singular 479 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 1: institution in the world. And without speaking about my own 480 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: qualifications compared to others, I have a rather unique background 481 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: because I have the business background as well as a 482 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: very deep art history background, and that's what the museum 483 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: was looking for for the reasons that we've discussed. So 484 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: I felt drawn to that opportunity and the role and 485 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: the leadership at Haverford understood that this was a once 486 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: in a lifetime opportunity and there was a need at 487 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: the MET for a new kind of leadership. So I 488 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: felt compelled to do that kind of leadership, to combine 489 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: a serious commitment to scholarly work and fiscal discipline to 490 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: fix the budgets. But at the same time, as you know, 491 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: generating scholarship, like creative work, is really inefficient. It's expensive, 492 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 1: you make mistakes, their failures, and if you become too 493 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: fiscally focused, then you don't waste time on on scholarly 494 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: projects that might take a long time, and that would 495 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: have been a mistake. So what I brought was the 496 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: ability to understand the value of both of those things, 497 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: and I was I felt called to do that. So 498 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: I was sorry to leave. Haverford was a great place, 499 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: and I still have close relations there, but it was 500 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: the right moment for me to make that change. Now, 501 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: some of the institutions I've worked with over the years 502 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: where I've served on the boards, I was developing my 503 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: sensibilities about this stuff, and I realized I was somewhat 504 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: uncomfortable with people that were raising huge amounts of money 505 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: for rent for a building. And eventually I said to myself, 506 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel that you're handing this 507 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: guy who is the landlord three fifty thousand dollars a 508 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: year in rent. And I went up leaving that institution 509 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: and leaving that board to go join another one where 510 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: they owned the building. There was always friction and there 511 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: was always resistance to asking for money, but they didn't 512 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 1: even blink at spending all this money on renovating the building. 513 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: Do you find that in terms of as a percentage 514 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: of the money that's available to you, that you are 515 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: constantly struggling to get the money you need for programming 516 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 1: and research and so forth. Well, you're raising, by the way, 517 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: I think, exactly the right issue for all cultural institutions, 518 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: because programming is why we're here, and it is connecting 519 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: people to the ideas that are behind the program. But 520 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: all of us want to have better facilities, bigger facilities, 521 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: nicer dressing rooms, better more bathrooms, more bats rooms, all 522 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: of that, and you can lose your way, you can 523 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: become And there's certainly ego involved. If during my tenure 524 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: as president we build this great way, I'll you know, 525 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: my grand children will see that no I built it. 526 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: Finding the balance is the key. And you and I 527 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: talked last night about the risk of creeping commercialism in 528 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: culture and in the arts. When you walk in an 529 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: art museum, you want to have a pure experience with 530 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: the objects and you don't need to see brought to 531 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: you by nobody, beats the whiz or whatever. You want 532 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: to just see the objects. The greatest challenge in being 533 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: leaders in this sector is finding a way for that 534 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: stuff to be invisible. The programming is being presented, the 535 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: institution looks good, the facilities are right, they're properly funded, 536 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: and sometimes that means saying no to big projects that 537 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: eat resources, even though they may look great. But what 538 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 1: are you doing to successive generations when those people have 539 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: to take care of it? They don't have enough money 540 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: to put on programming they need to there. You need 541 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: a strong board as you are as a trustee in 542 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: that organization, You need to ask those questions and hold 543 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: people accountable. Why are you doing that? Do you really 544 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: need that? What happens to the resources for the program? 545 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: And if you don't ask those questions, then bad things 546 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: can happen. So in my experience, that's exactly how shared 547 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: government should work. Everybody with a vested interests in the 548 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: well being of the place should ask the hard questions 549 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: and then you do the things you can afford. Daniel Weiss, 550 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: if you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be 551 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: sure to follow Here's the Thing on the I Heart 552 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When 553 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: we come back. Daniel Weiss weighs in are the actions 554 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: of climate activists who intentionally deface priceless works of art 555 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: in an attempt to draw attention to their cause. I'm 556 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's the Thing. 557 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: Daniel Weiss has a master's and PhD in medieval and 558 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: modern art and has been a professor of art history 559 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,959 Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins University and Lafayette College. I wanted to 560 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: know how he was first drawn to this career. I 561 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: grew up on Long Island. I was not interested in art. Art. 562 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about it. Would your dad do? 563 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 1: My father was a businessman, and he actually had been 564 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: an artist a little, an amateur artist, and I ta 565 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: his own stuff on the walls, which I liked. I 566 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: knew nothing about art. I had never been to an 567 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: art museum. On the walls of your home, yeah, just 568 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: a little, and it was his and that was it. 569 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: It was nice, but I didn't there was no real 570 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: artistic family. Who did he paint in the style of 571 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: your father? Impressionists. He got divorced from my mother and 572 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: he was a bachelor for a while and he painted 573 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: and decorated his walls with stuff he had painted, and 574 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: so I remember visiting him as a kid. He lived 575 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: in these exotic places like Puerto Rico and Brazil, and 576 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: it was a great time for me. I was with 577 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: him and I and those those pictures were on the wall. 578 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: So I had a positive association with art, but I 579 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: had no real interest in it. And then I went 580 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 1: to George Washington University and I was studying political science, 581 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: which lasted for me for maybe six weeks, and I 582 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: realized that's not for me, and I wasn't sure what 583 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 1: to do, and I was interested. I met this young 584 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: woman who was a student there, and I wanted to 585 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: get to know her. And she told me she was 586 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: taking this art history class and I needed a fifth class. 587 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: So I took this class and it was a revelatory 588 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: sperience for me. The professor was this young, charismatic, brilliant 589 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: guy who was talking about something that interested me immediately. 590 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: I was not a very serious student up until that moment. 591 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: I was trundling along in college, just sort of hanging 592 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: out and this subject was really interesting to me and 593 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: the way he brought it to life. He knew how 594 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: to perform teaching in a way that was compelling. Every 595 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: sentence came together, his paragraphs were complete, His intellectual presentation 596 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: was accessible but inspiring, and I wanted to know more. 597 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: And to make a long story short, I took one 598 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: class after another with him, and I became a serious student. 599 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: By the last end of college, I was a serious 600 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: academic and I ended up pursuing that study. He's still 601 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: a very dear friend and I actually married that woman. 602 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 1: It all worked out very well for me, but that 603 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: was a life day. I walked into this class and 604 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: I found myself as a serious person, and my relationship 605 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: with Sandra began to grow. And I've felt lucky for 606 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: the rest of my life that every day I have 607 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: this passion about something that's larger than me, that matters 608 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: to me. And prior to that day, I didn't have that. 609 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: I was just a kid in the world. And I 610 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: think having a passion for something that animates you, engages you, 611 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: brings out your best effort, gives you the motivation to 612 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 1: do hard things in order to be an artist. Story 613 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: and I had to learn a lot of languages. I 614 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: wasn't even a good language student, but I did. You 615 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: were from Long Island, so you barely spoke English. I 616 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: spoke Long Island, which you and I could speak. The 617 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: record speak. Well, that's it's very true. So I feel 618 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: very lucky about all of that. And as I said, 619 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: I've never looked back. It's been a good ride. So 620 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: obviously in the headlines that the people throwing soup and 621 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: so forth at these paintings, we find out that the 622 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 1: artwork is protected. It's got some veneer over it to 623 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: protect the actual artwork itself. That's probably true of every 624 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: piece of art of any real value around the world 625 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: for that very reason. And in case this issue of 626 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: people decolonize this place, d c t just stop oil 627 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: these different people that are doing this. What do you 628 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: think about this phenomenon, Well, I think it's very misplaced 629 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 1: effort to try to mobilize change around a real problem. 630 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: Most thoughtful people would acknowledge that climate change is a 631 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: disaster and that we have an obligation to do more 632 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: than we do. I agree with that, but I don't 633 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: think it helps their case to vandalize works of art 634 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: that are priceless and celebrate at treasured by all of humanity. 635 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: That that just alienates people. And by the way, it 636 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: isn't harmless. It's like saying, I'm going to shoot at 637 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: the president's car and he's gonna an armored car and 638 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: nobody's gonna get hurt and it's no problem. It's actually 639 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: is a problem. It First of all, it demonstrates that 640 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: vandalizing works of art is a practice that can be used, 641 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: can be mobilized for reasonable rationale, which I think is 642 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: not a good idea inspires people, that's the word. It 643 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: inspires people, and it undermines the quality of the experience 644 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: for everybody in a museum, knowing that at any moment 645 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: that these objects are going to be desecrated or might be. 646 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: And so I think in the end, it doesn't generate 647 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: the goodwill they're hoping to. It generates visibility and the 648 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: way terrorist acts often do, and it doesn't win friends. 649 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: And then finally, even throwing ink or soup on a 650 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,359 Speaker 1: covered work of art is not neutral to the work 651 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: of art. It actually seeps behind the glass, it damages 652 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: the frame. Some of those frames are worth millions of dollars, 653 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: and so it's it's utterly eris no, you can't do that, 654 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: and they're damaged. So I think anything that undermines the 655 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: quality of the experienced people have is a bad thing. 656 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: I remember when I was in college at George Washington 657 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: in the in the late nineties seventies. You could walk 658 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: right into the Capital, walk right in. You could go 659 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: into the Senate reception chamber and invite a senator to 660 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: come out and meet them. You could walk right around 661 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: the White House. You could drive past it. None of 662 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: those things are possible anymore because we live in a 663 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,280 Speaker 1: fortifi universe, because of the incremental damage that terrorism has done. 664 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 1: I don't wish to see the museum become another front 665 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: line in that. One of your counterparts in the article 666 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: Every in the Time said, well, the real answer is 667 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: to shut the museum. If you want to protect the artwork, 668 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: if you want to guarantee that we can protect the artwork, 669 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,720 Speaker 1: the only way to do that is to shut the museum, 670 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: which we have no intention of doing. Exactly that is 671 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: the only way to do it. To be sure, we 672 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: take risks every day. One thing that I've thought about, 673 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: and again I'm blue skying here, So I hope you 674 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: don't think I'm insane, And that is that the men 675 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: invite these people to come and have a forum. You 676 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: invite the protesters that are throwing the paint and say, 677 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: why don't you come on into the museum with us, 678 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: and we will live stream a forum with you, and 679 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: you tell us exactly what your goals are and how 680 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: you believe you achieve your goals this way and have 681 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: them come and see if they make any sense or 682 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: if they don't make any sense, and we're going to 683 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: live stream this. I want you to know that I'm 684 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 1: volunteering to moderate this program for you. I will be 685 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: your moderator free of charge. That's great, it's a wonderful idea, 686 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: and it's disarmingly candid to engage them in that way. 687 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: I think the idea of taking them seriously around the 688 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: issues that are concerned with while helping them to understand 689 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: that what they're doing is very dangerous to the objects. 690 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: So let's talk in a substantive way rather than just 691 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: to take them seriously. Yes, so three of them and 692 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: three of you. When you're gonna sit there and say, well, 693 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: here's why we think there's perhaps other options you should 694 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: be examining and let them make the case for why 695 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: it is. This is a good venue for them to 696 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: make a complicated case about climate change. I use a 697 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: great idea, and I'll take you up on your offer. 698 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Yeah, Well that's that's 699 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: very interesting. Well, well let's keep talking about what art 700 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: hangs on the wall of your home. So I'm not 701 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: a serious collector, but my wife and I have have 702 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: acquired things that are meaningful to us, and perhaps the 703 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: most meaningful things are those paintings my father did as 704 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 1: a young man that he gave to me and he 705 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: has since died, and they remind me not only of 706 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: him in a really special time in my life, but 707 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: really my first engagement with art, and I still love them. 708 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:07,839 Speaker 1: I see a lot of great art, but I still 709 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: think what he produced at that time, is he similar 710 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: to his artist, similar to what impression is. It's it's 711 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 1: sort of like maybe Ceasely or any of the He 712 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: did city scenes that look like Alfred Ceasily, maybe your money. 713 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: And he wasn't, as I say, a great artist, but 714 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: he had a distinctive style that connects with me, and 715 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: in my home that's what I have a lot of 716 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: other things, but those are the things if I if 717 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: the house was on fire, They're the ones I'd run 718 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: out with. In the world where people are being sued, 719 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 1: there are government policies exhorting nations to return artwork to 720 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: what is perceived as their rightful place. What's that been 721 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: like for you when your work at the Met. Well, 722 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: there have always been legal issues that we deal with 723 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: when a legal claim is made for a work of 724 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: art and art collection. We're always happy to honor the law, 725 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: and if it means, for example, Holocaust claims, Holocaust era 726 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: losses of art that we didn't know about and they're 727 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: hanging on our walls and a family member comes forward 728 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: and said that was my grandfather's. In the event there 729 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: is evidence to prove that we're act we do it 730 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: all the time. We give them back, so the law 731 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: must always be followed. But the increasing story in the 732 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,319 Speaker 1: news is the ethical issues around works of art that 733 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 1: it's pretty clear belongs somewhere else, but they're in museums 734 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: in the Met or the British Museum or the Louver anywhere, 735 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: and we're all trying to figure out how best do 736 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: we preserve our fiduciary responsibility to our institution. We're supposed 737 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: to be preserving the objects in our care, but also 738 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: serving the world in a more effective way and being 739 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 1: ethical about that. And there are all kinds of new 740 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: creative ways to do that, including restitution. We have given 741 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: works back to Nigeria, Benine works. We restituted some objects recently. 742 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 1: Other museums have done that. We've just made a major 743 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: agreement with the Greek government around psyclastic art that will 744 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: be owned by the Greek government but on display at 745 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: the met on loan from them as a way of 746 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: honoring who should hold title, which is not the same 747 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: thing is who should have it on the wall. And 748 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 1: if you begin to separate those issues out, we can 749 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: imagine a future where there's shared ownership agreements their partnerships 750 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: with around the world. I think that's the future and 751 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: it's the right direction. Do people ever say to you, 752 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: let's say you have objects that belong to some country, 753 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: just for an example, regardless of it's related to the 754 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: Holocaust or whatever you you it's been determined legally that 755 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,600 Speaker 1: you need to return this stuff and they don't have 756 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: the proper facility to care for that. Is there ever 757 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,080 Speaker 1: a conversation where you sit there and say, well, when 758 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: you guys are ready to take it, we'll give it 759 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: to you, like you're not just going to stick it 760 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 1: in a warehouse down by the seaside. What happens, then 761 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 1: that's a real issue that happens. If there there's a 762 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: legitimate legal claim, then we have no choice but what 763 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 1: we might say to the country or to whoever it is, 764 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: it's yours. We'll give it to you whenever you want, 765 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 1: but we're happy to take care of it for you 766 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 1: until you're ready, and it's yours whatever you say, but 767 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: at least it's going to be safe here at the mat. 768 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: If there is not a legal issue, but it's more 769 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: about our decision that we think these people should have it, 770 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 1: then the odds are we would say, we want to 771 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: figure out the right way for you to get this, 772 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 1: but we're happy to help figure out how do you 773 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: make sure this object is going to be safe and secure? 774 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 1: And usually that's a collegial discussion because they want that too, 775 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: and it might mean helping them build a facility or 776 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: creating better security or whatever. Both of those things happen. 777 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: Where do you like to go and spend a day 778 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: at a museum, what's one that never lets you down? Well, 779 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: I would say it's it's perhaps a surprising answer, the 780 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: Louver and the reason I say that has been going 781 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: there all my life, ever since I became an art person, 782 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: when I was in college. It's an institution that's full 783 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 1: of treasures. Everywhere you go, there's something in the room 784 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 1: that's the best example of its kind in the world, 785 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 1: and it's so vast. It's it's the same size as 786 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: the Mat, but I know the Mat better that I 787 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: always love to visit, and it, by the way, it's 788 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,319 Speaker 1: in Paris, which is also nice. So I love many 789 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: different museums, but I get to the Loop several times 790 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: a year, several times a year. Now, I'm told it's 791 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: been made public. Your stepping down. Yes, the end of 792 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: the summer, summer. Eight years of service and I'm declaring 793 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: victory and moving on. It's been a great experience. Thank you, 794 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. My thanks to the author and 795 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: outgoing president and CEO of the Met, Daniel Weisse. This 796 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,760 Speaker 1: episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. 797 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. 798 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is 799 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: Daniel Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought 800 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: to you by iHeart Radio