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Speaker 1: David Porter's story goes well beyond writing songs and releasing

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Speaker 1: albums for Stax Records. His recent memoir, The Soul Man,

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Speaker 1: tells how he and his partner Isaac Hayes helped invent

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Speaker 1: a sound rich and enduring enough to define American music

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Speaker 1: from the 60s to now. Together they wrote and produced

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Speaker 1: hits for Sam and Dave, Johnny Taylor, and dozens of

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Speaker 1: other artists, and in the process built what became known

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Speaker 1: as the Stax Sound. a sound Porter still describes as

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Speaker 1: the pursuit of pure emotional connection. Porter grew up on

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Speaker 1: a dead-end street in Memphis that also produced Maurice White

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Speaker 1: of Earth, Wind & Fire and members of the Barcays.

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Speaker 1: He started out singing in church before eventually singing and

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Speaker 1: producing music for Stax. He never learned to read music,

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Speaker 1: none of the great names that Stax did. Instead, they

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Speaker 1: built songs by ear in the room together, a process

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Speaker 1: Porter calls head arrangements, and it became the foundation for

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Speaker 1: some of the greatest songs in the history of R & B. Today,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Edlum sits down with David Porter to talk about

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Speaker 1: how he and Isaac Hayes built a signature sound to

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Speaker 1: set themselves apart from Motown, Burt Bacharach, and Hal David.

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Speaker 1: He also recalls the writing session that turned a bathroom

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Speaker 1: joke into Sam and Dave's Hold On, I'm Coming, and

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Speaker 1: the incredible story of how Otis Redding went from an

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Speaker 1: artist's personal driver to a Stax superstar. This is Broken Record.

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Speaker 1: Real musicians, real conversations. Here's Bruce Hedlum with David Porter.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming in to Broken Record.

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Speaker 2: David Porter, producer, arranger, singer, composer, now a philanthropist, and

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Speaker 2: just one of the five or six most essential people

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Speaker 2: at Stax Records. And people talk about the Stax sound

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Speaker 2: all the time. Combination of gospel, this, that, blues. When

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Speaker 2: you think about the stack sound, how do you define it?

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Speaker 3: The essence of pure emotional connectivity, the abilities to the

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Speaker 3: purity of the dedication of being real with the performance,

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Speaker 3: with the writing, to be so vulnerable and authentic in

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Speaker 3: the expression of the art until the words sold is

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Speaker 3: the best word that you can use to equate to

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Speaker 3: it the abilities for it to mean something more than

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Speaker 3: this last message that you heard talking about the same

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Speaker 3: subject because it finds a fresh way to talk about

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Speaker 3: common emotions and subject matters that can be relatable to anyone.

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Speaker 3: And that was a gift inside of the times and

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Speaker 3: the spirit of the music that was done at Staxe.

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Speaker 3: that accomplish that goals quite effectively.

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Speaker 2: I was very interested in your book, and we are

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Speaker 2: talking about your book, Soul Man, which is a wonderful,

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Speaker 2: wonderful book to read, and everybody should.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I was very interested that when you were working with

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Speaker 2: Isaac Hayes, who was your great songwriting partner, you were

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Speaker 2: very deliberate in how you set out to create a sound.

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Speaker 2: You looked at other artists, Motown... Burt Bacharach and Hal David,

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Speaker 2: and you said, okay, what can we bring to it

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Speaker 2: that's different? Can you talk a little bit about that process?

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Speaker 3: I thought it was fascinating. Coming up in the 40s

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Speaker 3: and 50s, as Isaac and I did, we had the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to see the transition of authenticness of Black talents,

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Speaker 3: meaning that they found the greatest path to recognition for them.

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Speaker 3: And that became what was something known as an identity

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Speaker 3: for them. Motown, in the writing at Motown, exemplified that

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Speaker 3: in a way that cracked America's consciousness open to being

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Speaker 3: appreciative to music that was made by people that look

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Speaker 3: like me, unlike anything else that had happened prior to that.

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Speaker 3: Even though inside of the greatness of the Fats Dominoes

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Speaker 3: and the Muddy Waters and the Chuck Berries, that uniqueness

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Speaker 3: was also there. But it was evident, that those times

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Speaker 3: of talents finding themselves in their own originality would be

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Speaker 3: the means by which it would change the American appreciation

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Speaker 3: for music coming from people that look like me. And

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Speaker 3: that is really the meat of the merit of what

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Speaker 3: this music has done throughout the world.

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Speaker 2: And you were, a lot of people sort of put

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Speaker 2: Stax and Motown against each other. like they're opposites. You

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Speaker 2: liked Motown Records.

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Speaker 3: I love what Motown was doing. Motown was able to

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Speaker 3: take what I call the straight four beat, straight four,

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Speaker 3: and put these beautiful melodies on top of them and

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Speaker 3: make you feel that. And then when they wanted to

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Speaker 3: get pretty with a little bit of strings or whatever,

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Speaker 3: they were able to do that in the most effective way.

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Speaker 3: Burt Bacharach, Hal Davis were able to take chord progressions

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Speaker 3: and melody, intricate ways of going about finding uniqueness inside

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Speaker 3: of their melodies and make it be so, so powerful

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Speaker 3: and profound. Those two were the tempest of what we

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Speaker 3: aspired to do, we being Isaac and I. But we

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Speaker 3: knew that we cannot do Motown better than Motown, and

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Speaker 3: we could certainly not do Rack-a-Rack Hal David better than

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Speaker 3: they could. So we had to find an identity that could,

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Speaker 3: in fact, work for us. That opportunity existed from the

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Speaker 3: foundation that we got from the church and from that

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Speaker 3: emotional merit that the spirituality of the church would give

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Speaker 3: you when you would go to worship. And out of

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Speaker 3: that came an appreciation for the rhythmic kinds of essences

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Speaker 3: that came through the spirituality of people expressing themselves, not

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Speaker 3: just through the song, but through the movements and the

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Speaker 3: tempos that were set in those movements that gave you

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Speaker 3: something to think about. Well, if that kind of action

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Speaker 3: works in that kind of way, why not let us

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Speaker 3: find a way to do that through the music that

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Speaker 3: we would do that would not be competing with those

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Speaker 3: that we respect, such as Motown. And so we found

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Speaker 3: that that was existing on the low end through the bass, drums, guitar,

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Speaker 3: and keyboards. And we found that the opportunity to create

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Speaker 3: a signature line, as we call it, a musical part

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Speaker 3: from that area and make that be a compliment in

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Speaker 3: addition to the lyrical connotation, the merit of the melodies

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Speaker 3: as well, would have an identity that could possibly create

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Speaker 3: a niche for us. And we knew that that was

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Speaker 3: the way to go when we did a record on

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Speaker 3: Sam and Dave called You Don't Know Like I Know.

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Speaker 3: That was the path that we should work to even

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Speaker 3: perfect even more. We were attempting to do it, but

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Speaker 3: we were not all in until we got the opportunity

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Speaker 3: to try this on Sam and Dave.

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Speaker 2: So what did you do on that song that you

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Speaker 2: weren't able to do before?

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Speaker 3: It was in the bass pattern, the bass line pattern

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Speaker 3: on the song. That was a signature line happening with

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Speaker 3: that bass pattern. There was a signature happening also with

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Speaker 3: the horn patterns. We created melodies, singing melodies with the

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Speaker 3: horn patterns that were also a little bit extended beyond

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Speaker 3: what you would hear on other records, Motown and others

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Speaker 3: as well. That was an avenue that we felt gave

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Speaker 3: us an opportunity to have a lane that was unique

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Speaker 3: for us.

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Speaker 2: And you mentioned the floor-on-the-floor feel. Of Motown.

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Speaker 3: Motown.

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Speaker 2: You didn't have that though.

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Speaker 3: No, no. The straightforward that Motown had, they would make

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Speaker 3: the beat, make you feel the straightforward beat, but the

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Speaker 3: melodies that they would do through the singers and the

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Speaker 3: songs would create the movements for the accents or whatever

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Speaker 3: they would want to do through that way. But they

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Speaker 3: didn't overemphasize it through the musical instruments. And we did.

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Speaker 3: That was a conscious effort on our part to do that.

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Speaker 2: And so how did you, when you sat down, You

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Speaker 2: and Isaac sat down, you wrote that song, and then

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Speaker 2: how did you communicate that to the band? And the band,

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming, was Al Jackson the drummer on that?

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Speaker 3: Al Jackson Jr., Steve Cropper, Duck Dunn, some cases Booker T. Jones,

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Speaker 3: other cases Isaac would be playing the keyboard. The Memphis

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Speaker 3: horns would consist of Wayne Jackson and Andrew Love, and

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Speaker 3: we would add, in most cases, a couple other players,

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Speaker 3: different players, but always around Andrew and Wayne. That was

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Speaker 3: the foundation of the uniqueness of Stax Records. And we

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Speaker 3: used that to its fullest to also magnify what we

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Speaker 3: saw was the individuality of us. Now, having to do

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Speaker 3: that would be going into the studio, giving each musician

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Speaker 3: the parts that created, as I mentioned to you, the

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Speaker 3: emphasis that we were going for on the low end.

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Speaker 3: And Otis Redding was the artist that perfected this technique,

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Speaker 3: but we had it as well. But Otis was perfect

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Speaker 3: at it. And that is going around the room, giving

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Speaker 3: the identical lines that you wanted the bass player to play,

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Speaker 3: the guitar player to play, the essence of the drum,

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Speaker 3: percussive kind of direction to go in for Al, and

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Speaker 3: then to put those together and make it marry the

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Speaker 3: personality that you were trying to find inside of the song.

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Speaker 3: So we did what we call head arrangement. That is,

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Speaker 3: after we would write a song, and this happened with

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Speaker 3: everybody at Stax over time, we would go into the

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Speaker 3: studio and let the uniqueness of the personality of the

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Speaker 3: song come through, not only through the melody and the lyrics,

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Speaker 3: but in the music that would accompany it.

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Speaker 2: Did the band members, when you worked with them, did

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Speaker 2: they contribute some of their own things to it? Or

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Speaker 2: were they kind of doing what you said?

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Speaker 3: Any of the patterns that we would give out had

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Speaker 3: to be played to the trueness of the pattern. But

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Speaker 3: inside of any pattern, as you well know with music,

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Speaker 3: you have the opportunity to, to have a little bit

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Speaker 3: of your persona and your personality, because the only way

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Speaker 3: you can make it have the feel that it has

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Speaker 3: is you have to believe in what you're doing. And

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Speaker 3: the only way you can do that is feel that

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Speaker 3: you're connected in a personal way to doing it. And

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Speaker 3: so that was a part of it as well. So certainly,

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Speaker 3: but each of the patterns were patterns that were thought

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Speaker 3: out in order to have freshness and uniqueness for these

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Speaker 3: musical parts. You had to have, because you had basically

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Speaker 3: the same players playing a personality and a persona, from

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Speaker 3: artist to artist, song to song, if not everything would

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Speaker 3: end up sounding alike. And so we had to magnify

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Speaker 3: the efforts to be sure that we were accomplishing that goal.

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Speaker 2: So you would have different ideas for Carla Thomas than

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Speaker 2: you would for Sam and Dave or for the emotions.

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Speaker 3: On purpose and with the surety that in order to

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Speaker 3: have a chance to make the music have connection in

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Speaker 3: the marketplace, there are no new emotions. You have to

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Speaker 3: find a fresh way to talk about common emotions through songs.

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Speaker 3: In order to do that, you have to look for

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Speaker 3: fresh ways in every aspect of it to do it.

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Speaker 3: And inside of the book, I talk about that extensively

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Speaker 3: because it's so important for people to understand that as

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Speaker 3: great as we were with what we attempted to do

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Speaker 3: at Stax Records, it was not something that we just

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Speaker 3: haphazardly went into the studio to do. We had so

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Speaker 3: many artists to work with. We had to think through

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Speaker 3: processes in order to have a value for every artist

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Speaker 3: that the public would get a chance to hear in

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Speaker 3: the marketplace. And we were passionate about that.

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Speaker 2: So when you were writing, were you always writing with

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Speaker 2: a certain group in mind?

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Speaker 3: Every time.

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Speaker 2: Because at Motown, they would write a song and say, well,

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Speaker 2: this would be good for Martha Reeve. This would be

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Speaker 2: good for Diana Ross.

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Speaker 3: No. No. No, we had to personify the uniqueness of personalities.

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Speaker 3: We want identity artists that we would work with. The

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Speaker 3: artists that we worked with and we were passionate about

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Speaker 3: all had Their personal identity that could stand on its

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Speaker 3: own and what they needed to have to magnify that

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Speaker 3: was the right kind of material to help them to

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Speaker 3: do that. So we knew if we would sit down

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Speaker 3: to write a song for, hypothetically, Johnny Taylor, we knew

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Speaker 3: why we would take it a particular direction to do

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Speaker 3: it a certain kind of way on Johnny Taylor. By

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Speaker 3: the same token, we would do the same thing with

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Speaker 3: Sam and Dave. or if we were working on a

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Speaker 3: song for Albert King, or we would go to the

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Speaker 3: other end of the spectrum and work on a song

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Speaker 3: for The Emotions or The Soul Tour. And we knew

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Speaker 3: that we had to capture their true essence, but also

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Speaker 3: not lose the abilities of being sure that we're not

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Speaker 3: replicating something that we would have done on some other

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Speaker 3: artists the day before.

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Speaker 2: So, for example, Johnny Taylor, who had a huge hit

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Speaker 2: with Who's Making Love.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, right.

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Speaker 2: What would you do on a Johnny Taylor record, say,

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Speaker 2: compared to a Sam and Dave record?

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Speaker 3: Well, on the Johnny Taylor record, that was produced by

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Speaker 3: a gentleman by the name of Don Davis. But Don

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Speaker 3: couldn't get what we call the final master take on Johnny.

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Speaker 3: And so he got Isaac and I to help him

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Speaker 3: with that record. So Isaac did the horn arrangements on

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Speaker 3: Who's Making Love. I did the vocal arrangement with Johnny Taylor.

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Speaker 3: And with Johnny Taylor, I knew that part of his arrangements,

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Speaker 3: identity rather, that worked well for him, for him to

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Speaker 3: have signatures and inside of words or inside of what

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Speaker 3: we call a squall or a vocal sound that sounds

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Speaker 3: like a scream. And on Who's Making Love, I gave

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Speaker 3: him a line that said, hear me now. And he

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Speaker 3: screamed that, hear me now, at the very top of

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Speaker 3: the record. And he screamed it a couple of times

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Speaker 3: in the record. That was calculated and on purpose. And

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Speaker 3: so in the horn parts that gave that track energy,

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Speaker 3: that was Isaac Hayes.

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Speaker 2: He wrote all the horn parts, right?

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Speaker 3: On that particular song. The song was not written by us,

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Speaker 3: but at Stax Records, we had a thing about trying

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Speaker 3: to help everybody to have success because fortunately for Isaac

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Speaker 3: and I, we were fortunate enough to have success just

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Speaker 3: on everything we worked on.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever write the horn parts?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's what I meant by head arrangement. We would

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Speaker 3: come up with horn parts by head arrangement. Isaac didn't

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Speaker 3: sit down and write a horn chart. We'd come up

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Speaker 3: with the parts inside of the room. So I would

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Speaker 3: come up with some parts as well, But Isaac was

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Speaker 3: more profound at that than anyone. Anyone associated with Stax Records.

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Speaker 3: No one can compete with Isaac Hayes on horn parts.

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Speaker 2: So I'm thinking of the, it's one of the signature

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Speaker 2: horn parts of all time that starts Hold On, I'm Coming.

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Speaker 3: That was Isaac. Matter of fact, that horn part on

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Speaker 3: Hold On, I'm Coming, Isaac had that down a couple

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Speaker 3: weeks before we even came up with the idea of

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Speaker 3: Hold On, I'm Coming. That idea came about when we

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Speaker 3: were out at a club one night just jamming and

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Speaker 3: and having fun, we would leave a club, go back

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Speaker 3: to the recording studio, work on writing songs late at night.

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Speaker 3: Many nights we would do that. And one of the

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Speaker 3: nights was Hold On, I'm Coming, and I went to

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Speaker 3: the restroom, and Isaac was trying to rush me out. Well,

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Speaker 3: he screamed, hey, man, hurry up. And I screamed, hold on,

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Speaker 3: I'm coming. I came out of the restroom and said, hey, buddy,

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Speaker 3: I got one. He said, what? I said, hold on,

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Speaker 3: I'm coming. And we talked about the concept and sat

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Speaker 3: down and talking about it. He said, I have a

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Speaker 3: horn pattern that could work on that. And he played

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Speaker 3: that horn pattern for me. And we talked about a

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Speaker 3: rescue song. And in 20 minutes, we wrote Hold On,

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Speaker 3: I'm Coming.

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Speaker 2: Now you say a rescue song. Is that how you

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Speaker 2: talked about it back then?

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: We were motivated off of the TV show Superman. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We were really motivated off of that small TV screen.

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Speaker 3: And during that time, Superman was a big hit on television.

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Speaker 3: So the concept was a rescue song. And that's why

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Speaker 3: Isaac said, hey, I got this horn pattern that sounds

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Speaker 3: like a fanfare for rescue. And that was where that pattern,

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Speaker 3: we had that pattern before we started writing the song. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So it was a restroom song that became a rescue song.

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're telling me? Yes.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to ask you one more question about

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Speaker 2: influences at that time, which is on one of your

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Speaker 2: own albums, and I think it's the opera album.

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Speaker 3: Victim of the Joke.

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Speaker 2: Victim of the Joke. You do a great... great rolling

301
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Speaker 2: cover of Help by the Beatles.

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Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Love that.

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Speaker 3: I love that version.

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Speaker 2: Were you influenced by the Beatles at all at that time,

306
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Speaker 2: or was it too early for them to make an impact?

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Speaker 3: No, the Beatles were quite impactful. I thought their writing

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Speaker 3: was really, really special. This was 1972, 73 when I

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Speaker 3: recorded that album, and they had already been superstars And

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Speaker 3: their writing was already validated as unbelievably great. And we

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Speaker 3: had artists that wanted to record and cover some of

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Speaker 3: the Beatles songs. By the way, the Beatles had already

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Speaker 3: approached Jim Stewart about coming to Saks to record. The

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Speaker 3: only reason they didn't is the word got out that

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Speaker 3: they were going to. That was something I wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to do a song by the Beatles. That

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Speaker 3: was one of those head arrangements things that I was

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Speaker 3: talking about. Now, after doing the head arrangements for the

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Speaker 3: rhythm of the song, I did sit down with a

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Speaker 3: string and horn arranger and hummed out parts for him

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Speaker 3: to put on the charts of that. And I did that.

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Speaker 3: And all of those parts were head arrangement parts. But

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Speaker 3: that was wanting to take the song in a direction

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Speaker 3: that was more like my kind of energy, but also

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Speaker 3: trying not to embarrass myself by doing a weak version

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Speaker 3: of something of one of the greatest artists who had lived.

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Speaker 3: That was a passion for me. I had such great

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Speaker 3: respect for those guys writing.

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Speaker 2: And then your friend, Maurice White, ended up covering them

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Speaker 2: a little bit with Earth, Wind.

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Speaker 3: & Fire, too. Well, the interesting thing in my book,

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Speaker 3: I talk about this. Maurice and I came from the

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Speaker 3: same day at Inn Street in Memphis, Tennessee, singing at

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Speaker 3: that church, Rose Hill Baptist Church, being influenced by the church,

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Speaker 3: and understanding the value of crystallizing a concept if you

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Speaker 3: wanted to do music. And he took the concept part

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Speaker 3: of that, and I talk about how he vetted the

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Speaker 3: title of Earth, Wind, and Fire with me and how

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Speaker 3: we went through me going to Los Angeles and him,

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Speaker 3: we walking up Sunset Boulevard, and he explained the concept

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Speaker 3: of that. But we both understood the value of being

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Speaker 3: sure that you find a fresh way to talk about

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00:18:55,936 --> 00:19:01,656
Speaker 3: common emotions lyrically, melodically, and musically. And so that was

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Speaker 3: a part of that. He perfected it with Earth, Wind,

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Speaker 3: and Fire. I like to think Isaac and I perfected

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Speaker 3: it with what we were doing at Stacks Records.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going back to that dead-end street where you

348
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Speaker 2: grew up. How many siblings did you have?

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Speaker 3: Twelve.

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Speaker 2: Twelve siblings.

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Speaker 3: You're right.

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Speaker 2: But your father died when you were.

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Speaker 3: My father died when I was two.

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Speaker 2: And is it true that you never saw a photo

355
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Speaker 2: of your father?

356
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Speaker 3: I have never seen a photo of my father to

357
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Speaker 3: this day. What was happening is he worked at IC Railroad,

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Speaker 3: hard-working man. Big family was not a lot of money

359
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Speaker 3: in the 40s, not for the Porter family. And so

360
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Speaker 3: the last thing that was thought about, I would imagine,

361
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Speaker 3: would be let's get a camera to take pictures. So

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Speaker 3: it was about survival. And so there was no way

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Speaker 3: for him to know that he would pass. He passed

364
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Speaker 3: in his 40s. He was 43 years old when he died.

365
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Speaker 3: And so certainly not thinking about leaving the earth that young.

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Speaker 3: And so I would imagine over time he may would

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Speaker 3: have had some. But no, I've never seen a picture

368
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Speaker 3: of him. The family that lived next door to me

369
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Speaker 3: was the Cunningham family. That street was the dead end

370
00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:12,836
Speaker 3: street was full of of creativeness, in my opinion. Maurice

371
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Speaker 3: White right across the street from me from my house.

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Speaker 3: The Cunningham family next door door to me. Carl Cunningham

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Speaker 3: was the drummer of a group called the Bar Cays.

374
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Speaker 3: He also was the drummer that perished in the airplane

375
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Speaker 3: crash with Otis Redding. So on that street was the

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Speaker 3: Bar Cays, Earth, Wind & Fire, and the producers at

377
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Speaker 3: Stax Records, one of them, and David Porter.

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Speaker 2: That's a pretty good dead-end street.

379
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Speaker 3: That's a pretty good dead-end street.

380
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Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from David Porter after

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Speaker 1: the break.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned the church because... What fascinated me in your book,

383
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Speaker 2: because there was so much talent in Memphis, but you wonder,

384
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Speaker 2: a lot of that talent could have gone to waste.

385
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Speaker 2: But there were institutions that seemed to really kind of

386
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Speaker 2: nurture you and a lot of the people who ended

387
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Speaker 2: up at Stax. You mentioned the church. Was that your

388
00:21:05,966 --> 00:21:07,306
Speaker 2: mother's church that she went to?

389
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Speaker 3: Yes, definitely so.

390
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Speaker 2: So that was the church everybody went to, because I'm

391
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Speaker 2: sure she made sure of that.

392
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Speaker 3: That was the place right there.

393
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Speaker 2: And now did you sing... In the choir at church,

394
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Speaker 2: did you sing solos?

395
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Speaker 3: It was a very, very small choir. Maurice Kelly and

396
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Speaker 3: Leanna Cunningham, the brothers of Carl, we were the ones

397
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Speaker 3: that were singing in that small choir.

398
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Speaker 2: Now, do you have a favorite song from back then

399
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Speaker 2: that you remember from that?

400
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Speaker 3: Amazing Grace was a staple of all of the Baptist

401
00:21:34,246 --> 00:21:38,046
Speaker 3: churches back in those days. And that was just one

402
00:21:38,086 --> 00:21:40,726
Speaker 3: of those things. And when I was coming up at

403
00:21:40,746 --> 00:21:44,476
Speaker 3: a very, very young age, there were standard hymn songs

404
00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:47,636
Speaker 3: that were sung more than anything else. As time went on,

405
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Speaker 3: by the time you get to the latter part of

406
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Speaker 3: the 50s, there were more gospel artists coming up with

407
00:21:53,416 --> 00:21:57,976
Speaker 3: more original songs, more original songs that had more melodic stretches,

408
00:21:58,056 --> 00:22:01,776
Speaker 3: melodically and musically, and it became a different world. So

409
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Speaker 3: now I'm singing in high school in church, the songs

410
00:22:04,626 --> 00:22:07,246
Speaker 3: were different. But on that day at Inn Street, it

411
00:22:07,286 --> 00:22:12,926
Speaker 3: was mostly Amazing Grace and those kinds of standard kinds

412
00:22:13,006 --> 00:22:17,156
Speaker 3: of gospel singing that was permeated throughout most of the

413
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Speaker 3: churches of the times.

414
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Speaker 2: Did anybody say, wow, David, you've got a great voice?

415
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Speaker 3: Well, interestingly enough, I never heard anybody say it, but

416
00:22:26,426 --> 00:22:29,186
Speaker 3: it did not stop Maurice White David Porter and Leanne

417
00:22:29,226 --> 00:22:31,326
Speaker 3: and Kelly Cunningham from thinking that we had great voices

418
00:22:31,546 --> 00:22:33,946
Speaker 3: because we thought people were reacting to us in the

419
00:22:34,006 --> 00:22:37,946
Speaker 3: church based on what was going on during the services.

420
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Speaker 3: We didn't realize until later when our mothers told us

421
00:22:41,136 --> 00:22:44,036
Speaker 3: to shut up, the people were worshiping because we thought

422
00:22:44,056 --> 00:22:45,856
Speaker 3: it was about us. We thought we were great singers.

423
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Speaker 3: But the church gave us as youngsters confidence to be

424
00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:54,516
Speaker 3: comfortable and confident being in the presence of people and

425
00:22:54,576 --> 00:22:56,996
Speaker 3: showing what you had in your talent pool.

426
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Speaker 2: And were you singing in harmony back then?

427
00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:04,836
Speaker 3: You had the opportunity to learn those kind of traits very,

428
00:23:04,856 --> 00:23:07,676
Speaker 3: very young. Yes, you could sing in harmonies. You could

429
00:23:07,736 --> 00:23:11,576
Speaker 3: sing with attitude. You could sing with range and all

430
00:23:11,596 --> 00:23:14,696
Speaker 3: of those because you heard so much of that. There

431
00:23:14,736 --> 00:23:18,646
Speaker 3: was so much talent in our communities during those times.

432
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Speaker 3: You heard so many examples of those people who were

433
00:23:23,426 --> 00:23:27,726
Speaker 3: stretching themselves to find themselves through song. And that motivates

434
00:23:27,766 --> 00:23:30,886
Speaker 3: you to try to find yourself. So yes, homities and

435
00:23:31,726 --> 00:23:36,656
Speaker 3: range and baritone and tenors and sopranos and altos was

436
00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:39,396
Speaker 3: a common trait for any and everyone to sing.

437
00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:41,436
Speaker 2: Did you learn to read music then?

438
00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,776
Speaker 3: None of us read music. Really? We didn't have the

439
00:23:44,856 --> 00:23:49,556
Speaker 3: opportunities to have music class. At Stax Records, Isaac did

440
00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:52,336
Speaker 3: not read music. David Porter didn't read music. None of

441
00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:55,486
Speaker 3: the folk at Stax Records. We all did head arrangements.

442
00:23:55,816 --> 00:23:59,166
Speaker 3: and learn to play just by playing. I was not

443
00:23:59,226 --> 00:24:01,706
Speaker 3: a person that grabbed an instrument. I wanted to play trumpet,

444
00:24:01,746 --> 00:24:03,866
Speaker 3: and I started with a trumpet and put it down

445
00:24:03,926 --> 00:24:06,426
Speaker 3: quickly because I wanted to be a singing star. Maurice

446
00:24:06,446 --> 00:24:09,436
Speaker 3: started beating cans and things such as that, and he

447
00:24:09,456 --> 00:24:11,056
Speaker 3: wanted to be a drummer. By the time he got

448
00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:13,496
Speaker 3: in high school, he was playing drums in a band.

449
00:24:13,556 --> 00:24:16,636
Speaker 3: I was singing on talent shows. But as far as

450
00:24:16,776 --> 00:24:20,016
Speaker 3: reading and going through a lot of that, no, that

451
00:24:20,056 --> 00:24:20,846
Speaker 3: was not the case.

452
00:24:21,226 --> 00:24:23,286
Speaker 2: Now, was it true that your first talent show you

453
00:24:23,326 --> 00:24:24,606
Speaker 2: sang a Paul Anka song?

454
00:24:26,086 --> 00:24:29,936
Speaker 3: I flunked on the talent show because I was in

455
00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:32,796
Speaker 3: high school, the ninth grade, and that was not the

456
00:24:32,816 --> 00:24:35,016
Speaker 3: first talent show I sang on, but that was the

457
00:24:35,056 --> 00:24:37,976
Speaker 3: first high school talent show I sang on. And here

458
00:24:38,076 --> 00:24:41,496
Speaker 3: I was thinking that I was such a huge fan

459
00:24:41,536 --> 00:24:44,926
Speaker 3: of that song called Diana by Paul Anka. And I'm

460
00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:48,606
Speaker 3: thinking that I'm going to sing Diana on this talent show. Now,

461
00:24:48,766 --> 00:24:51,926
Speaker 3: mind you, the radio station that was now playing black

462
00:24:52,006 --> 00:24:58,356
Speaker 3: music in Memphis, WDIA-NC, It already started. It started in 1947, 48.

463
00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:01,296
Speaker 3: By the time we get to the late 50s, 59,

464
00:25:01,296 --> 00:25:04,126
Speaker 3: I had enough music in my coffers to grab some

465
00:25:04,146 --> 00:25:06,806
Speaker 3: of those songs that were played on DIA. But I

466
00:25:06,826 --> 00:25:10,346
Speaker 3: was such a fan of beautiful melodies and lyric and

467
00:25:10,866 --> 00:25:13,406
Speaker 3: all of that. And I just looked at songs and songs.

468
00:25:13,506 --> 00:25:15,546
Speaker 3: I thought I would take that song and do it

469
00:25:15,606 --> 00:25:20,376
Speaker 3: on a talent show. And I bummed. I could not

470
00:25:20,416 --> 00:25:24,466
Speaker 3: believe that no one responded to me whatsoever singing Diana.

471
00:25:25,146 --> 00:25:28,186
Speaker 3: And the reason being was people were getting on the

472
00:25:28,226 --> 00:25:33,606
Speaker 3: stage singing Bobby Blue Bland songs, singing Ted Taylor songs,

473
00:25:34,246 --> 00:25:36,776
Speaker 3: and some of the great R & B artists and

474
00:25:36,816 --> 00:25:40,736
Speaker 3: David Porter got on the stage singing a pretty beautiful song,

475
00:25:41,396 --> 00:25:44,396
Speaker 3: which had very little connectivity to it, to that audience.

476
00:25:44,576 --> 00:25:47,316
Speaker 2: Written by a kid from Ottawa, Canada.

477
00:25:48,816 --> 00:25:50,346
Speaker 3: Yeah.

478
00:25:50,586 --> 00:25:53,426
Speaker 2: There were some amazing talents at that school. Is that

479
00:25:53,446 --> 00:25:54,456
Speaker 2: where you met Booker T?

480
00:25:55,056 --> 00:25:58,396
Speaker 3: Booker T. Jones was two years behind Maurice White and I.

481
00:25:59,056 --> 00:26:02,936
Speaker 3: William Bell was two years in front of Maurice and I.

482
00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:05,096
Speaker 2: Who sang You Don't Miss Your Water.

483
00:26:05,116 --> 00:26:08,496
Speaker 3: You Don't Miss Your Water. Andrew Love, the leader of

484
00:26:08,536 --> 00:26:12,666
Speaker 3: the Memphis Horns, was two years above us. Al Jackson

485
00:26:13,166 --> 00:26:16,706
Speaker 3: was four years above us in high school. Rufus Thomas,

486
00:26:16,826 --> 00:26:20,246
Speaker 3: many years before us, went to Booker T. Washington High School.

487
00:26:21,336 --> 00:26:25,096
Speaker 3: a school so rich in talent. Isaac Hayes, who we

488
00:26:25,136 --> 00:26:29,016
Speaker 3: were friends only from talent shows that were held on

489
00:26:29,056 --> 00:26:32,066
Speaker 3: Beale Street at a movie theater called the Palace Theater

490
00:26:32,406 --> 00:26:35,606
Speaker 3: when you sing on Wednesday nights trying to win $ 3

491
00:26:35,186 --> 00:26:39,426
Speaker 3: for first place. He was a product of a Manassas

492
00:26:39,446 --> 00:26:42,806
Speaker 3: High School, which was on the other side of the city,

493
00:26:43,426 --> 00:26:47,496
Speaker 3: and they were known for their emphasis around jazz. Music

494
00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:50,566
Speaker 3: in schools and and the like, that's such an important thing.

495
00:26:51,066 --> 00:26:54,586
Speaker 3: It's a shame when schools don't really, really push to

496
00:26:54,626 --> 00:26:57,986
Speaker 3: have that as a common thing in our educational systems.

497
00:26:58,766 --> 00:27:00,546
Speaker 2: But you didn't take an instrument in high school. You

498
00:27:00,586 --> 00:27:01,976
Speaker 2: just sang, right?

499
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:04,836
Speaker 3: No, I wanted to be Clyde McFetter. And I put

500
00:27:04,876 --> 00:27:07,616
Speaker 3: the trumpet down, any thoughts of that, and I wanted

501
00:27:07,636 --> 00:27:10,756
Speaker 3: to be a singer. And that's what I pursued passionately.

502
00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:16,846
Speaker 2: You mentioned another great Memphis institution, which was WEIA. I

503
00:27:16,866 --> 00:27:19,926
Speaker 2: think it was the first... radio station in the U.S.

504
00:27:19,946 --> 00:27:22,126
Speaker 2: that primarily focused on a Black audience.

505
00:27:22,366 --> 00:27:27,506
Speaker 3: It was the very first. WDIA was the first African-American

506
00:27:27,586 --> 00:27:30,606
Speaker 3: radio station in the United States of America who had

507
00:27:30,626 --> 00:27:34,846
Speaker 3: an emphasis totally around Black music. And that was the

508
00:27:34,896 --> 00:27:39,996
Speaker 3: beginning of us in 47, 48, Maurice White, Isaac Hayes,

509
00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:44,796
Speaker 3: David Porter, learning about the power of individuality in artists

510
00:27:44,816 --> 00:27:47,776
Speaker 3: who found a way to show their own uniqueness by

511
00:27:47,796 --> 00:27:52,246
Speaker 3: the way they created melodies by the way they played instruments,

512
00:27:52,446 --> 00:27:55,986
Speaker 3: by the way they sang songs. And that told us

513
00:27:56,286 --> 00:27:57,666
Speaker 3: that if you want to have a chance to be

514
00:27:57,706 --> 00:28:01,526
Speaker 3: successful in music, you got to find the individuality seed

515
00:28:01,926 --> 00:28:05,186
Speaker 3: that exists in everyone and magnify that to the extent

516
00:28:05,526 --> 00:28:07,806
Speaker 3: that people can feel you, that you're comfortable with it,

517
00:28:08,086 --> 00:28:10,976
Speaker 3: you're passionate with it, and you're also effective as you

518
00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:11,306
Speaker 3: do it.

519
00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:13,776
Speaker 2: Who are some of the artists you remember listening to

520
00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:14,896
Speaker 2: and being moved by?

521
00:28:14,916 --> 00:28:21,896
Speaker 3: Oh, Fats Domino is one. Mm-hmm. Johnny Ace is another.

522
00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:27,216
Speaker 3: Ray Charles, needless to say, is another. The Moonglows and Lil'

523
00:28:27,296 --> 00:28:31,406
Speaker 3: Anthony and Imperials are others. I mean, there was Benny

524
00:28:31,506 --> 00:28:34,726
Speaker 3: King in the very late stages of my career when

525
00:28:34,746 --> 00:28:37,246
Speaker 3: I'm starting to really get some traction was another. There

526
00:28:37,266 --> 00:28:40,626
Speaker 3: were so many great, great talents. Right before I graduated

527
00:28:40,646 --> 00:28:44,626
Speaker 3: from high school, the record that emotionally just moved me

528
00:28:44,706 --> 00:28:47,066
Speaker 3: to the hilt was a record by a group called

529
00:28:47,086 --> 00:28:49,456
Speaker 3: The Impressions. It was led by a guy by the

530
00:28:49,496 --> 00:28:51,896
Speaker 3: name of Jerry Butler, and the song was For Your

531
00:28:51,956 --> 00:28:55,976
Speaker 3: Precious Love. And I walked from my home to the

532
00:28:56,016 --> 00:28:58,936
Speaker 3: radio station where Jerry Butler came to Memphis and was

533
00:28:58,976 --> 00:29:03,936
Speaker 3: being interviewed at WLOK radio station. He was 19 years old,

534
00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:05,956
Speaker 3: and I asked him when he came out of the

535
00:29:05,996 --> 00:29:08,356
Speaker 3: radio station, would he mind telling me how to get

536
00:29:08,416 --> 00:29:11,486
Speaker 3: in music business? What's the best way? And he wasn't

537
00:29:11,506 --> 00:29:14,026
Speaker 3: that much older than I, but he had this massive

538
00:29:14,046 --> 00:29:16,926
Speaker 3: hit record, For Your Precious Love, with the impression, And

539
00:29:16,966 --> 00:29:20,026
Speaker 3: he told me to be diversified. And I kept that

540
00:29:20,066 --> 00:29:23,446
Speaker 3: word with me always. And I first found out the

541
00:29:23,486 --> 00:29:26,906
Speaker 3: true meaning of what being diversified meant. And I made

542
00:29:26,946 --> 00:29:29,646
Speaker 3: sure that I knew more than just singing. I started

543
00:29:29,966 --> 00:29:33,486
Speaker 3: really emphasizing the writing possibilities and finding out what other

544
00:29:33,526 --> 00:29:36,306
Speaker 3: kind of areas of music that one could get into

545
00:29:36,846 --> 00:29:39,306
Speaker 3: to be a part of it. And so that was

546
00:29:39,366 --> 00:29:42,136
Speaker 3: all a part of it. But the radio station WDIA

547
00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:47,266
Speaker 3: set the template for you to understand the power of individuality.

548
00:29:48,006 --> 00:29:51,066
Speaker 2: And they had DJs like Rufus Thomas, B.B. King.

549
00:29:51,416 --> 00:29:55,696
Speaker 3: Nat D. Williams. B.B. King was one. Nat D. Williams

550
00:29:55,776 --> 00:30:00,056
Speaker 3: was the first African-American DJ hired at WDIA. And he

551
00:30:00,116 --> 00:30:03,236
Speaker 3: was also a high school teacher. He taught at Booker T.

552
00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:06,876
Speaker 3: Washington High School history. He was also my teacher at

553
00:30:06,896 --> 00:30:09,026
Speaker 3: Booker T. Washington High School history. He was a great,

554
00:30:09,046 --> 00:30:13,736
Speaker 3: great man. The amazing thing about WDIA, the people they hired,

555
00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:15,696
Speaker 3: they may not have been aware of it totally. I

556
00:30:15,736 --> 00:30:19,036
Speaker 3: don't think they were. But the people they hired were educators.

557
00:30:19,456 --> 00:30:21,616
Speaker 3: So these were people that would go into the persona

558
00:30:21,736 --> 00:30:25,056
Speaker 3: of a personality or uniqueness for the performance of the

559
00:30:25,096 --> 00:30:27,706
Speaker 3: radio station and then come off of that and go

560
00:30:27,756 --> 00:30:32,486
Speaker 3: to a school and teach kids English, algebra, whatever. And

561
00:30:33,146 --> 00:30:35,926
Speaker 3: so the power of that was something that resonated in

562
00:30:36,066 --> 00:30:37,496
Speaker 3: an unbelievable way for us.

563
00:30:38,196 --> 00:30:40,836
Speaker 2: You know, another great institution, if you want to call

564
00:30:40,856 --> 00:30:43,696
Speaker 2: it that, in Memphis was Beale Street with all the bars.

565
00:30:43,796 --> 00:30:45,276
Speaker 2: When did you start singing there?

566
00:30:45,986 --> 00:30:48,686
Speaker 3: Well, the truth is, when I mentioned a day in

567
00:30:48,706 --> 00:30:51,086
Speaker 3: the street that I talked about and the talents that

568
00:30:51,106 --> 00:30:53,526
Speaker 3: were on that street, all of the talents that were

569
00:30:53,606 --> 00:30:56,346
Speaker 3: on that street, we could walk from our homes up

570
00:30:56,406 --> 00:30:58,906
Speaker 3: to Beale Street, which is not even a mile away.

571
00:30:59,346 --> 00:31:02,136
Speaker 3: So Maurice and I would walk to Beale Street. We

572
00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:04,616
Speaker 3: were too young to go in the clubs. But we

573
00:31:04,656 --> 00:31:08,756
Speaker 3: would see people on the street dressing these amazing suits

574
00:31:08,776 --> 00:31:11,836
Speaker 3: and looking all sharp and everything. You would see some

575
00:31:11,896 --> 00:31:15,116
Speaker 3: stars when they would come into town during the course

576
00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:17,916
Speaker 3: of the late afternoons. We were out of school. We

577
00:31:17,936 --> 00:31:21,036
Speaker 3: would see them walking into these clubs with instruments. And

578
00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:23,936
Speaker 3: some of the artists were going for rehearsals. And that

579
00:31:23,976 --> 00:31:28,316
Speaker 3: was so amazingly fascinating. And Beale Street was a street

580
00:31:28,656 --> 00:31:31,406
Speaker 3: that had all of the great entertainers walking. who would

581
00:31:31,466 --> 00:31:34,866
Speaker 3: come to perform on that street. All of the clubs

582
00:31:34,906 --> 00:31:39,196
Speaker 3: were loaded on the street with high-level entertainment. And that's

583
00:31:39,286 --> 00:31:41,376
Speaker 3: one of the reasons why a young man by the

584
00:31:41,436 --> 00:31:44,416
Speaker 3: name of Elvis Presley would be hanging around those clubs

585
00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:48,336
Speaker 3: meeting people. And this was during the times of segregation.

586
00:31:48,776 --> 00:31:50,756
Speaker 3: Elvis Presley, I didn't know he was Elvis Presley at

587
00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:53,696
Speaker 3: the time, but I saw this white guy on the

588
00:31:53,716 --> 00:31:56,596
Speaker 3: street quite often when we would walk up there, and

589
00:31:56,636 --> 00:31:59,716
Speaker 3: it was Elvis. And so it was one of those

590
00:31:59,796 --> 00:32:03,496
Speaker 3: things where A young kid with a passion for music

591
00:32:04,056 --> 00:32:07,626
Speaker 3: had kinds of potential influences that resonated with him in

592
00:32:07,706 --> 00:32:10,566
Speaker 3: meaningful ways. And Beale Street was one of those streets

593
00:32:10,906 --> 00:32:13,286
Speaker 3: that played a key role in that. There was a

594
00:32:13,346 --> 00:32:16,566
Speaker 3: theater on the street, the Palisade, that would have talent

595
00:32:16,586 --> 00:32:19,626
Speaker 3: shows every Wednesday night for young kids who were in

596
00:32:19,686 --> 00:32:22,696
Speaker 3: high school to come and sing on the talent shows

597
00:32:22,736 --> 00:32:25,816
Speaker 3: that show their talent wares. And that also was one

598
00:32:25,856 --> 00:32:28,896
Speaker 3: of the great pluses. That's how I really got to

599
00:32:28,936 --> 00:32:31,326
Speaker 3: know Isaac Hayes very well. He had a vocal group

600
00:32:31,366 --> 00:32:34,116
Speaker 3: called the Teen Tones, and I had a vocal group

601
00:32:34,136 --> 00:32:37,236
Speaker 3: called the Marquettes. And we would compete on Wednesday nights

602
00:32:37,576 --> 00:32:39,936
Speaker 3: for $ 2 and $ 3 trying to win the first prize.

603
00:32:40,836 --> 00:32:42,596
Speaker 2: Were you singing kind of classic doo-wop?

604
00:32:43,236 --> 00:32:45,536
Speaker 3: What were you singing? Without a doubt. Isaac was a

605
00:32:45,556 --> 00:32:49,526
Speaker 3: bass singer with his group. There was a record called

606
00:32:49,566 --> 00:32:52,726
Speaker 3: Get a Job that the bass would do that was

607
00:32:53,066 --> 00:32:56,366
Speaker 3: highly noted. And I had a song called Come to Me,

608
00:32:56,406 --> 00:32:58,776
Speaker 3: Darling by the Dale Vikings that I used to sing.

609
00:32:59,266 --> 00:33:01,986
Speaker 3: I won first prize with that. He won first prize

610
00:33:02,286 --> 00:33:04,526
Speaker 3: with Get a Job. Isaac and I used to talk

611
00:33:04,566 --> 00:33:07,766
Speaker 3: about that. We remember those two songs because they worked

612
00:33:07,806 --> 00:33:10,696
Speaker 3: for us in that setting at the Palace Theater.

613
00:33:10,976 --> 00:33:13,696
Speaker 2: Now, did you know when you were doing those shows,

614
00:33:14,036 --> 00:33:15,296
Speaker 2: this is what I want to do, I want to

615
00:33:15,336 --> 00:33:15,756
Speaker 2: do music?

616
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:18,836
Speaker 3: I knew that I was passionate about it. I didn't

617
00:33:18,876 --> 00:33:21,776
Speaker 3: understand with total clarity how to get in it. I

618
00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:23,896
Speaker 3: knew I wanted to get in it. I knew I

619
00:33:23,936 --> 00:33:26,406
Speaker 3: wanted to find out more about it. So I knew

620
00:33:26,426 --> 00:33:29,676
Speaker 3: I had the passion for that. more than anything else.

621
00:33:30,156 --> 00:33:31,956
Speaker 3: I just didn't know the path that it would take

622
00:33:32,556 --> 00:33:35,136
Speaker 3: to make it work. I did, as I mentioned to you,

623
00:33:35,996 --> 00:33:39,636
Speaker 3: Jerry Butler saying, be diversified and all those kinds of

624
00:33:39,676 --> 00:33:42,986
Speaker 3: things that would happen as examples and things I would see.

625
00:33:43,596 --> 00:33:47,426
Speaker 3: But I was passionate about a desire for that. Over time,

626
00:33:47,846 --> 00:33:51,486
Speaker 3: that passion grew and looked for opportunities to make it

627
00:33:51,526 --> 00:33:54,216
Speaker 3: be manifested in things that I could take action on.

628
00:33:54,226 --> 00:33:57,966
Speaker 3: And eventually it did with the day that This kid

629
00:33:58,006 --> 00:34:00,446
Speaker 3: working at a grocery store walked across the street for

630
00:34:00,486 --> 00:34:04,206
Speaker 3: these people who were recording country records called Satellite Records.

631
00:34:04,566 --> 00:34:08,666
Speaker 3: He convinced them to do music that ultimately became a

632
00:34:08,966 --> 00:34:10,546
Speaker 3: record company called Stax Records.

633
00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:12,976
Speaker 2: So tell me about that day. You had a young

634
00:34:13,016 --> 00:34:13,896
Speaker 2: family by that point.

635
00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:14,276
Speaker 3: Yes.

636
00:34:14,296 --> 00:34:16,176
Speaker 2: You were working very hard. You were working at two

637
00:34:16,216 --> 00:34:17,176
Speaker 2: supermarkets in town.

638
00:34:17,196 --> 00:34:17,576
Speaker 3: Right.

639
00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:21,156
Speaker 2: And then across the street from the theater that became Stax.

640
00:34:21,176 --> 00:34:25,846
Speaker 3: Yes. Well, I was a curious kid. And as I'm working,

641
00:34:26,226 --> 00:34:29,086
Speaker 3: I'm now right out of high school. I still got

642
00:34:29,126 --> 00:34:32,746
Speaker 3: a job now because I got a family member response before.

643
00:34:33,286 --> 00:34:35,066
Speaker 3: And I'm going across the street to find out more

644
00:34:35,086 --> 00:34:38,486
Speaker 3: about this place. And they were doing country music. They

645
00:34:38,526 --> 00:34:43,656
Speaker 3: had two artists, Charles Hines and Nick Charles. Nick Charles

646
00:34:43,696 --> 00:34:46,256
Speaker 3: was a disc jockey out of St. Louis. Charles Hines

647
00:34:46,276 --> 00:34:49,576
Speaker 3: was a local singer out of Memphis. And I worked

648
00:34:49,696 --> 00:34:52,776
Speaker 3: on trying to convince Jim Stewart to consider letting me

649
00:34:52,816 --> 00:34:55,916
Speaker 3: have an audition there. And his sister was running a

650
00:34:55,996 --> 00:34:59,576
Speaker 3: record store that was connected to this movie theater. And

651
00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:01,936
Speaker 3: I found that it's much easier for me to go

652
00:35:02,046 --> 00:35:05,526
Speaker 3: in her record store every day to try to talk

653
00:35:05,586 --> 00:35:09,126
Speaker 3: to her, listen to music, learn new songs that I

654
00:35:09,146 --> 00:35:11,266
Speaker 3: would want to sing at a club to try to

655
00:35:11,286 --> 00:35:13,766
Speaker 3: make two or three dollars a night. And that's how

656
00:35:13,786 --> 00:35:16,706
Speaker 3: I developed a relationship with her that ultimately ended up

657
00:35:17,396 --> 00:35:20,536
Speaker 3: her convincing Jim Stewart to let me do the audition

658
00:35:20,896 --> 00:35:23,476
Speaker 3: that changed this country label into an R & B

659
00:35:23,496 --> 00:35:27,876
Speaker 3: label and changed David Porter into a songwriter producer. She

660
00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:29,496
Speaker 3: was a beautifully kind lady.

661
00:35:29,836 --> 00:35:30,296
Speaker 2: Estelle.

662
00:35:30,556 --> 00:35:34,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, Estelle Laxton, who was the AX of Stax. Jim

663
00:35:34,836 --> 00:35:40,026
Speaker 3: Stewart was ST of Stax. AX, his sister, was Estelle Laxton,

664
00:35:40,046 --> 00:35:42,926
Speaker 3: her married name. And so she was a beautiful lady.

665
00:35:43,386 --> 00:35:45,366
Speaker 3: And many of us who had to experience the Stax

666
00:35:45,406 --> 00:35:48,286
Speaker 3: records give her a lot of credit for the beauty

667
00:35:48,326 --> 00:35:51,526
Speaker 3: that she showed at a time of trying times in

668
00:35:51,566 --> 00:35:54,466
Speaker 3: this country. And she encouraged some kids to look like us,

669
00:35:54,946 --> 00:35:57,446
Speaker 3: that there was a means to an end for us.

670
00:35:57,706 --> 00:36:00,726
Speaker 3: And she made sure that her brother took the time

671
00:36:00,766 --> 00:36:04,346
Speaker 3: to listen. And he listened to his advantage that worked

672
00:36:04,386 --> 00:36:05,346
Speaker 3: out quite well for him.

673
00:36:05,826 --> 00:36:08,606
Speaker 2: And then you became, I mean, you were a singer.

674
00:36:09,126 --> 00:36:12,016
Speaker 2: You started producing. You didn't know anything about producing, though,

675
00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:12,316
Speaker 2: did you?

676
00:36:12,816 --> 00:36:15,136
Speaker 3: I didn't even know what the word meant. But I

677
00:36:15,156 --> 00:36:18,746
Speaker 3: started learning singing. about what those things were. When Isaac

678
00:36:18,766 --> 00:36:21,606
Speaker 3: and I first started producing records, our names were not

679
00:36:21,666 --> 00:36:24,856
Speaker 3: put on the records. I have to be honest, Jim

680
00:36:24,896 --> 00:36:29,076
Speaker 3: Stewart put produced by staff on several records when all

681
00:36:29,116 --> 00:36:31,876
Speaker 3: the time Isaac Hayes and David Porter were producing those records.

682
00:36:32,196 --> 00:36:35,236
Speaker 3: But as we learned about those steps of what the

683
00:36:35,276 --> 00:36:38,676
Speaker 3: business was, we then learned how to say, well, look,

684
00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:41,456
Speaker 3: we are the producers of the records, our names and

685
00:36:41,536 --> 00:36:44,066
Speaker 3: our royalties have to be associated with that. So we

686
00:36:44,086 --> 00:36:47,226
Speaker 3: started making changes. with that success, but we came in

687
00:36:47,266 --> 00:36:51,626
Speaker 3: green and learning what those things meant and how to

688
00:36:51,646 --> 00:36:54,526
Speaker 3: make them have merit for us, including the publishing and

689
00:36:54,566 --> 00:36:56,806
Speaker 3: writing and all those kinds of things.

690
00:36:57,446 --> 00:37:02,326
Speaker 2: But you were more than the sum of your parts

691
00:37:02,966 --> 00:37:05,226
Speaker 2: at Stacks. You were this kind of connector. You brought

692
00:37:05,286 --> 00:37:07,706
Speaker 2: in your friends from high school. You brought in Maurice.

693
00:37:08,606 --> 00:37:10,606
Speaker 2: Did you bring in Booker T. Jones as well?

694
00:37:11,086 --> 00:37:13,726
Speaker 3: I brought Booker T. Jones in to play the demo

695
00:37:13,746 --> 00:37:17,496
Speaker 3: with me. that I did for my audition. But after that,

696
00:37:17,896 --> 00:37:20,356
Speaker 3: when Jim Stewart was impressed by a guy by the

697
00:37:20,396 --> 00:37:23,496
Speaker 3: name of Rufus Thomas to record a song with him

698
00:37:23,976 --> 00:37:26,096
Speaker 3: and his daughter, Jim didn't know how to put a

699
00:37:26,116 --> 00:37:29,756
Speaker 3: band together. He had just opened himself up to consider

700
00:37:29,796 --> 00:37:33,266
Speaker 3: doing something with talents that looked like black books, because

701
00:37:33,286 --> 00:37:37,046
Speaker 3: they were. And I got Booker T. Jones out of

702
00:37:37,106 --> 00:37:41,226
Speaker 3: high school to come and play baritone horn on that record,

703
00:37:41,646 --> 00:37:44,646
Speaker 3: as well as some other people. The baritone horn on

704
00:37:44,686 --> 00:37:48,486
Speaker 3: the record that got the attention nationally for Stax Records,

705
00:37:48,886 --> 00:37:51,746
Speaker 3: a song called Cause I Love You by Rufus and Carla.

706
00:37:52,046 --> 00:37:55,686
Speaker 3: The baritone horn player on that record was Booker T. Jones.

707
00:37:56,386 --> 00:37:58,696
Speaker 3: And if you read Booker T. 's book, you'll see

708
00:37:58,736 --> 00:38:00,976
Speaker 3: him talking about that in his book. And if you

709
00:38:01,016 --> 00:38:04,236
Speaker 3: read The Soul Man, Life of Songwriter David Porter, I'm

710
00:38:04,296 --> 00:38:07,116
Speaker 3: talking about it in mine, too, because that was really

711
00:38:07,136 --> 00:38:10,876
Speaker 3: the beginning of the transition of Stax Records into Stax.

712
00:38:11,246 --> 00:38:12,026
Speaker 3: a soul label.

713
00:38:12,226 --> 00:38:13,626
Speaker 2: And when you say you called him out of school,

714
00:38:13,686 --> 00:38:15,766
Speaker 2: he literally missed a class at school to come and

715
00:38:15,786 --> 00:38:16,126
Speaker 2: do that session.

716
00:38:16,146 --> 00:38:18,426
Speaker 3: I literally went to school. It was a school I

717
00:38:18,446 --> 00:38:21,206
Speaker 3: graduated from, and I was popular in high school. And

718
00:38:21,276 --> 00:38:23,276
Speaker 3: I talked to Mr. Martin, who was the band director,

719
00:38:23,656 --> 00:38:27,096
Speaker 3: and told him that I had an opportunity for Booker T.

720
00:38:27,136 --> 00:38:29,316
Speaker 3: Jones to make a record, and he helped me get

721
00:38:29,356 --> 00:38:30,016
Speaker 3: him out of school.

722
00:38:30,836 --> 00:38:33,656
Speaker 2: Amazing. So what was it like working with Isaac Hayes?

723
00:38:33,716 --> 00:38:35,376
Speaker 2: Did you have your own writing room, or did you

724
00:38:35,416 --> 00:38:36,256
Speaker 2: work in the studio?

725
00:38:37,036 --> 00:38:40,936
Speaker 3: We started out in the studio, but we became... Poplar

726
00:38:40,976 --> 00:38:43,316
Speaker 3: needed us to say quite quickly, and we ended up

727
00:38:43,376 --> 00:38:44,556
Speaker 3: having our own office.

728
00:38:44,936 --> 00:38:46,036
Speaker 2: And it had a piano?

729
00:38:46,216 --> 00:38:48,816
Speaker 3: It had a piano in there, office desk and a

730
00:38:48,856 --> 00:38:51,736
Speaker 3: piano in there, and we would work in our writing room.

731
00:38:52,076 --> 00:38:55,096
Speaker 2: So how would you write together? Neither of you wrote music.

732
00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:56,256
Speaker 2: He would be at the piano.

733
00:38:56,656 --> 00:38:59,276
Speaker 3: We would hear what we would hear, come up with ideas,

734
00:39:00,106 --> 00:39:02,646
Speaker 3: and he could find the chords and play the chords.

735
00:39:03,306 --> 00:39:04,886
Speaker 3: And the more he would play the chords, the more

736
00:39:04,926 --> 00:39:07,346
Speaker 3: he would become acclimated to one, three, fives, how to

737
00:39:07,786 --> 00:39:11,066
Speaker 3: structure harmonies, where the sevens were. You know, he developed

738
00:39:11,086 --> 00:39:15,506
Speaker 3: more of an instinct musically on his own. Self-taught is

739
00:39:15,526 --> 00:39:18,586
Speaker 3: the best way to say that. But also going into

740
00:39:18,626 --> 00:39:21,546
Speaker 3: the studio to do the parts, we both trusted our

741
00:39:21,706 --> 00:39:26,216
Speaker 3: instincts in the creative process after we learned instinctively how

742
00:39:26,276 --> 00:39:28,736
Speaker 3: we wanted to do sessions. And that's why I use

743
00:39:28,756 --> 00:39:32,576
Speaker 3: the term head arrangement. So we'd create a song, we'd

744
00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:35,196
Speaker 3: decide on the instruments that we would want to have

745
00:39:35,296 --> 00:39:37,576
Speaker 3: on the song. We would then go into the studio.

746
00:39:37,956 --> 00:39:42,706
Speaker 3: We trusted each other. without question. And so we knew

747
00:39:42,736 --> 00:39:44,746
Speaker 3: what we were doing and we would each play our

748
00:39:44,786 --> 00:39:47,286
Speaker 3: part in putting it together. And we did it that

749
00:39:47,326 --> 00:39:52,416
Speaker 3: way without writing any charts out in that regard. Not

750
00:39:52,456 --> 00:39:52,816
Speaker 3: at all.

751
00:39:53,056 --> 00:39:55,236
Speaker 2: Now, you were doing most of the melodies on top

752
00:39:55,276 --> 00:39:56,476
Speaker 2: of what he was playing.

753
00:39:56,666 --> 00:39:59,786
Speaker 3: I was doing the melodies, lyric, and come and go

754
00:39:59,806 --> 00:40:03,306
Speaker 3: with musical directions that we could go in. Sometimes I

755
00:40:03,346 --> 00:40:06,046
Speaker 3: would tell him, look, let's take this chord down or up.

756
00:40:06,346 --> 00:40:08,046
Speaker 3: Let's spray it the chord. We're going to put a

757
00:40:08,066 --> 00:40:10,726
Speaker 3: background here. We're going to have an accent here. Those

758
00:40:10,766 --> 00:40:12,356
Speaker 3: are the kinds of things that are part of what

759
00:40:12,376 --> 00:40:14,956
Speaker 3: we call head arrangements. And we were doing that throughout

760
00:40:14,996 --> 00:40:17,996
Speaker 3: the whole process, not only with the writing of the songs,

761
00:40:18,016 --> 00:40:20,356
Speaker 3: but with the musicians as we would work with them

762
00:40:20,816 --> 00:40:23,076
Speaker 3: in the recording sessions. And that was part of the

763
00:40:23,156 --> 00:40:25,736
Speaker 3: magic of Stax Records, because that happened with everyone.

764
00:40:26,016 --> 00:40:28,536
Speaker 2: And you wrote out the lyrics, I assume, did you?

765
00:40:29,316 --> 00:40:31,876
Speaker 3: I definitely created words for most of the songs that

766
00:40:31,916 --> 00:40:32,416
Speaker 3: we would write.

767
00:40:32,666 --> 00:40:34,566
Speaker 2: But would you actually write them out for the artists

768
00:40:34,606 --> 00:40:35,726
Speaker 2: then and then take them in?

769
00:40:35,966 --> 00:40:38,246
Speaker 3: I would have to do that to teach them the song, yes.

770
00:40:39,006 --> 00:40:41,626
Speaker 3: And I would then direct the artists on the microphone

771
00:40:41,886 --> 00:40:44,586
Speaker 3: to sing the song. Because as we would do the session,

772
00:40:44,606 --> 00:40:46,646
Speaker 3: they would come in for the session, then had the

773
00:40:46,666 --> 00:40:48,956
Speaker 3: opportunity to learn the songs. I would have to teach

774
00:40:48,996 --> 00:40:52,256
Speaker 3: them the song before we'd bring the musicians in. Once

775
00:40:52,596 --> 00:40:54,626
Speaker 3: they would do that, now they're familiar with it. I

776
00:40:54,686 --> 00:40:57,146
Speaker 3: want the naturalness of their emotions to be pure with that,

777
00:40:57,606 --> 00:40:59,106
Speaker 3: and I'd be sure that I would get them into

778
00:40:59,126 --> 00:41:01,386
Speaker 3: the character. Now they're ready to record the song, I

779
00:41:01,406 --> 00:41:04,386
Speaker 3: would go to the microphone back when they're ready to record,

780
00:41:04,666 --> 00:41:06,446
Speaker 3: and I would stand on the other side of the

781
00:41:06,486 --> 00:41:09,806
Speaker 3: microphone and direct them. I did that with Sam and Dave.

782
00:41:09,866 --> 00:41:12,206
Speaker 3: I did that with everyone we worked with. After we

783
00:41:12,226 --> 00:41:15,166
Speaker 3: work up the arrangements inside of the room, that would

784
00:41:15,186 --> 00:41:16,006
Speaker 3: be the role I would do.

785
00:41:16,266 --> 00:41:17,626
Speaker 2: Did it always work when you got in the room

786
00:41:17,646 --> 00:41:19,406
Speaker 2: with the artists, or sometimes did you have to go

787
00:41:19,446 --> 00:41:21,986
Speaker 2: back and say, this isn't working, we've got to redo it?

788
00:41:23,076 --> 00:41:26,506
Speaker 3: That very seldom ever happened with us. There was only

789
00:41:26,626 --> 00:41:29,686
Speaker 3: one song I can recall that we had difficulty in

790
00:41:29,766 --> 00:41:33,166
Speaker 3: really making work for us in a real creative way,

791
00:41:33,606 --> 00:41:35,946
Speaker 3: and that's a song called It's a Wonder You Don't

792
00:41:35,986 --> 00:41:38,506
Speaker 3: Turn to Sugar. And that was a song that we

793
00:41:38,586 --> 00:41:40,766
Speaker 3: ended up on one of the albums on Sam & Dave,

794
00:41:41,316 --> 00:41:44,016
Speaker 3: but it was not our best work on a session

795
00:41:44,156 --> 00:41:47,336
Speaker 3: on Sam & Dave. That ended up later being a

796
00:41:47,376 --> 00:41:50,076
Speaker 3: part of an album that we would have wanted to

797
00:41:50,096 --> 00:41:54,116
Speaker 3: have recorded later. Again, but we never got the opportunity to.

798
00:41:54,976 --> 00:41:57,236
Speaker 3: They left and went back to New York with Atlantic

799
00:41:57,296 --> 00:42:01,096
Speaker 3: Records when their relationship dissolved with Atlantic Records and Stax.

800
00:42:02,096 --> 00:42:03,896
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with more from David Porter after

801
00:42:03,936 --> 00:42:04,276
Speaker 1: the break.

802
00:42:08,656 --> 00:42:11,596
Speaker 2: Now, Atlantic had signed Sam and Dave, but didn't know

803
00:42:11,616 --> 00:42:14,196
Speaker 2: what to do with them. So sort of gave them

804
00:42:14,256 --> 00:42:17,066
Speaker 2: to you and said, what can we do? Do you

805
00:42:17,106 --> 00:42:18,476
Speaker 2: remember meeting them for the first time?

806
00:42:19,316 --> 00:42:23,536
Speaker 3: I remember meeting them. You know, I've heard fairy tales

807
00:42:23,576 --> 00:42:25,816
Speaker 3: of Sam Moore talking about what he saw of us

808
00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:29,126
Speaker 3: and all of that, which it wasn't true. But I

809
00:42:29,186 --> 00:42:32,606
Speaker 3: remember meeting them, but I don't remember many of the

810
00:42:32,966 --> 00:42:36,646
Speaker 3: steps toward that meeting. I remember us being told, these

811
00:42:36,686 --> 00:42:39,586
Speaker 3: are some guys that we want to see you guys

812
00:42:39,626 --> 00:42:42,306
Speaker 3: work with who want to try to do the work

813
00:42:42,386 --> 00:42:43,946
Speaker 3: on them. And I was the one that took the

814
00:42:44,006 --> 00:42:46,896
Speaker 3: lead on that. The very first record is a record

815
00:42:46,916 --> 00:42:50,026
Speaker 3: called A Place Nobody Can Find. which was the first

816
00:42:50,066 --> 00:42:53,386
Speaker 3: release on Sam & Dave. You'll see my name 100%

817
00:42:53,386 --> 00:42:56,286
Speaker 3: right in everything on that song because I was the

818
00:42:56,346 --> 00:42:58,686
Speaker 3: one that did the first record on them. There was

819
00:42:58,746 --> 00:43:00,526
Speaker 3: not a lot of jumping up and down wanting to

820
00:43:00,566 --> 00:43:04,086
Speaker 3: do them. After that first record, Isaac and I approached

821
00:43:04,126 --> 00:43:07,686
Speaker 3: him about let's form a team and go and do it.

822
00:43:08,106 --> 00:43:10,366
Speaker 3: So I asked him if we could do the production

823
00:43:10,426 --> 00:43:12,046
Speaker 3: on them. He allowed us to do that, and the

824
00:43:12,106 --> 00:43:15,146
Speaker 3: rest is history. There came You Don't Know Like I Know.

825
00:43:15,886 --> 00:43:18,006
Speaker 3: And that was the beginning of a long string of

826
00:43:18,066 --> 00:43:18,866
Speaker 3: major hit records.

827
00:43:19,066 --> 00:43:21,086
Speaker 2: And then after that was Hold On?

828
00:43:21,876 --> 00:43:24,676
Speaker 3: After You Don't Know Like I Know was Hold On,

829
00:43:24,756 --> 00:43:25,796
Speaker 3: I'm Coming. Yes.

830
00:43:26,036 --> 00:43:28,206
Speaker 2: That was a number one record, I think, wasn't it?

831
00:43:28,216 --> 00:43:30,016
Speaker 3: That was a number one record.

832
00:43:30,136 --> 00:43:30,776
Speaker 2: Even in pop?

833
00:43:31,636 --> 00:43:34,176
Speaker 3: Well, it didn't make it. It was top ten in pop,

834
00:43:34,216 --> 00:43:36,716
Speaker 3: but it was number one in R & B. Soul

835
00:43:36,776 --> 00:43:40,016
Speaker 3: Man made number one in pop. That followed Hold On,

836
00:43:40,056 --> 00:43:40,456
Speaker 3: I'm Coming.

837
00:43:41,076 --> 00:43:43,116
Speaker 2: So was that a big moment in Stax?

838
00:43:43,416 --> 00:43:47,116
Speaker 3: That was a huge, huge moment at Stax. That was

839
00:43:47,156 --> 00:43:49,676
Speaker 3: the first number one record of Stax Records.

840
00:43:49,696 --> 00:43:51,996
Speaker 2: Did that sort of change the atmosphere in Stax?

841
00:43:52,836 --> 00:43:56,226
Speaker 3: Well, I would think so. We were so excited, and

842
00:43:56,266 --> 00:43:58,886
Speaker 3: needless to say, Isaac and I, but it was something

843
00:43:58,966 --> 00:44:03,266
Speaker 3: exciting for the entire company because we were now finding

844
00:44:03,446 --> 00:44:06,186
Speaker 3: our footing in the music industry, and there were some

845
00:44:06,226 --> 00:44:08,486
Speaker 3: other great records that were also being written and produced

846
00:44:08,526 --> 00:44:11,726
Speaker 3: and recorded at that same time as well. Booker T

847
00:44:11,746 --> 00:44:14,846
Speaker 3: and the MGs were now beginning to take off as artists.

848
00:44:15,246 --> 00:44:18,336
Speaker 3: And Booker T and the MGs were recording some amazing

849
00:44:19,056 --> 00:44:22,856
Speaker 3: instrumental records that were truly tremendous. And then we had

850
00:44:22,916 --> 00:44:26,916
Speaker 3: artists like Albert King and Johnny Taylor that also were amazing.

851
00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:32,146
Speaker 2: And then you started touring with the Stax artists, right?

852
00:44:33,186 --> 00:44:38,106
Speaker 3: I did, but I was not passionate about touring. I

853
00:44:38,226 --> 00:44:42,006
Speaker 3: wanted to be the artist myself. but I was having

854
00:44:42,086 --> 00:44:45,486
Speaker 3: so much success as a writer, producer, and I was

855
00:44:45,566 --> 00:44:49,186
Speaker 3: much more comfortable there than I was on stage. I

856
00:44:49,246 --> 00:44:52,396
Speaker 3: love the stage, but I was having much more success

857
00:44:52,956 --> 00:44:55,536
Speaker 3: writing and producing. I just couldn't walk away from that.

858
00:44:55,996 --> 00:44:59,496
Speaker 3: When Isaac exploded as an artist, he had no choice

859
00:44:59,616 --> 00:45:04,476
Speaker 3: because he became so amazingly huge. It just made all

860
00:45:04,496 --> 00:45:06,666
Speaker 3: the sense in the world for him to take advantage

861
00:45:06,706 --> 00:45:10,546
Speaker 3: of that. When he did, Atlantic had left Stax Records

862
00:45:10,566 --> 00:45:13,436
Speaker 3: completely in the relationships, and we had to have product.

863
00:45:14,176 --> 00:45:18,076
Speaker 3: And that was when Al Bell encouraged Isaac to record,

864
00:45:18,536 --> 00:45:21,116
Speaker 3: said that we needed a great number of albums, and

865
00:45:21,156 --> 00:45:24,186
Speaker 3: encouraged several of us to make records. And though I

866
00:45:24,266 --> 00:45:26,346
Speaker 3: had no intentions of going on the road and touring

867
00:45:26,366 --> 00:45:29,706
Speaker 3: at that or anything like that, I made a record myself,

868
00:45:30,086 --> 00:45:32,526
Speaker 3: and it did well. It was certainly not out of

869
00:45:32,566 --> 00:45:36,716
Speaker 3: the sales of Isaac's record, but 250,000 albums was not bad.

870
00:45:37,136 --> 00:45:40,116
Speaker 3: It was very good for albums. But I just started

871
00:45:40,316 --> 00:45:43,636
Speaker 3: recording these albums because they were successful, but I still

872
00:45:43,696 --> 00:45:46,186
Speaker 3: was in the studio working day in and day out

873
00:45:46,296 --> 00:45:49,966
Speaker 3: on writing and producing and building the publishing company and

874
00:45:50,026 --> 00:45:51,746
Speaker 3: overseeing the labels in A & R.

875
00:45:52,066 --> 00:45:54,646
Speaker 2: And that was more interesting to you than being up

876
00:45:54,706 --> 00:45:55,166
Speaker 2: on stage?

877
00:45:55,566 --> 00:45:57,826
Speaker 3: I did a couple of tours. One of the tours

878
00:45:57,886 --> 00:46:01,386
Speaker 3: I did was I was in Philadelphia at the Spectrum

879
00:46:01,926 --> 00:46:05,626
Speaker 3: on a Thursday night. Isaac was the headliner. I was

880
00:46:05,666 --> 00:46:10,816
Speaker 3: the co-headliner. Miles Davis opened the show. If you get

881
00:46:11,236 --> 00:46:14,746
Speaker 3: my book, The Soul Man, you'll see the placard that

882
00:46:14,786 --> 00:46:18,726
Speaker 3: was promoting that show at the Spectrum in Philly that

883
00:46:19,126 --> 00:46:21,046
Speaker 3: I did that. And Bobby Womack and I used to

884
00:46:21,126 --> 00:46:24,986
Speaker 3: tour together. Bobby was the headliner and I was touring

885
00:46:25,006 --> 00:46:27,946
Speaker 3: with him on some dates as well. But I just

886
00:46:27,986 --> 00:46:31,266
Speaker 3: wasn't as passionate about that as one would think. So

887
00:46:31,326 --> 00:46:34,926
Speaker 3: I was more comfortable being in the studio. I started

888
00:46:35,026 --> 00:46:38,286
Speaker 3: out before all the success of recording records. When Booker

889
00:46:38,306 --> 00:46:40,486
Speaker 3: T and the MGs first started having their success, I

890
00:46:40,686 --> 00:46:43,846
Speaker 3: was the vocalist for Booker T and the MGs because

891
00:46:43,886 --> 00:46:46,806
Speaker 3: we would perform on the weekends in colleges across America.

892
00:46:47,766 --> 00:46:49,606
Speaker 3: And then come back on Monday, we'd be back in

893
00:46:49,626 --> 00:46:52,186
Speaker 3: the studio making records. And that was fun.

894
00:46:52,546 --> 00:46:54,566
Speaker 2: Did you go on one of the European tours?

895
00:46:55,566 --> 00:46:57,246
Speaker 3: I was on the tour. Isaac and I both were

896
00:46:57,346 --> 00:47:00,606
Speaker 3: on the European tour in 67. We were not performers

897
00:47:00,686 --> 00:47:03,566
Speaker 3: on the tour, but we were on it. And we

898
00:47:03,606 --> 00:47:06,326
Speaker 3: were treated as stars on it because we didn't realize

899
00:47:06,686 --> 00:47:09,486
Speaker 3: the amount of fans that we had that were fans

900
00:47:09,546 --> 00:47:12,006
Speaker 3: of our writing and producers. That's when we found out

901
00:47:12,386 --> 00:47:16,826
Speaker 3: that people truly did love the songwriters and producers. With

902
00:47:17,006 --> 00:47:20,266
Speaker 3: all of those adulations and excitement for what we were

903
00:47:20,286 --> 00:47:23,026
Speaker 3: doing as writers and producers was really amazing to us.

904
00:47:23,286 --> 00:47:26,646
Speaker 2: Yeah, Stax had a huge audience in Europe.

905
00:47:27,486 --> 00:47:34,876
Speaker 3: Unbelievable. The acceptance in France and Amsterdam. in Germany, in

906
00:47:34,996 --> 00:47:38,896
Speaker 3: all these countries. It was amazing. And we had no

907
00:47:39,016 --> 00:47:41,596
Speaker 3: idea until we got there to find that that was

908
00:47:41,616 --> 00:47:44,336
Speaker 3: the case. And don't even begin to mention London when

909
00:47:44,416 --> 00:47:47,436
Speaker 3: all those big acts over there wanted to come and

910
00:47:47,506 --> 00:47:50,446
Speaker 3: find us, where we were staying and what pub we

911
00:47:50,466 --> 00:47:54,806
Speaker 3: were at outside of a gig night. It was amazing, amazing.

912
00:47:55,026 --> 00:47:57,186
Speaker 2: Did you end up meeting some musicians over there?

913
00:47:57,726 --> 00:48:00,206
Speaker 3: There were several of them that we had an opportunity

914
00:48:00,256 --> 00:48:02,606
Speaker 3: to meet. And I wouldn't begin to start calling out,

915
00:48:03,466 --> 00:48:07,186
Speaker 3: because I can't remember everybody, but the Beatles were huge fans.

916
00:48:08,056 --> 00:48:13,156
Speaker 3: The Animals, Eric Burden was a huge fan. Rod Stewart

917
00:48:13,436 --> 00:48:16,276
Speaker 3: was a fan. I mean, a lot of those guys

918
00:48:16,316 --> 00:48:18,836
Speaker 3: that were making those records were huge, huge fans of

919
00:48:18,876 --> 00:48:19,576
Speaker 3: Stax Records.

920
00:48:20,176 --> 00:48:23,336
Speaker 2: So tell me about the first time you met Otis Redding.

921
00:48:24,936 --> 00:48:28,746
Speaker 3: Well, Otis Redding came to Stax as a driver, and

922
00:48:28,766 --> 00:48:31,506
Speaker 3: I talk about this in the book because it's fascinating

923
00:48:32,006 --> 00:48:35,646
Speaker 3: because No one knew about Otis Redding as a singer.

924
00:48:36,116 --> 00:48:39,636
Speaker 3: He was a driver and a gopher for a guy

925
00:48:39,736 --> 00:48:42,536
Speaker 3: by the name of Johnny Jenkins that Jim Stewart had

926
00:48:42,576 --> 00:48:46,436
Speaker 3: given an opportunity to record at Stax. Well, Otis was

927
00:48:46,456 --> 00:48:50,186
Speaker 3: the driver for this artist, came to Memphis, was on

928
00:48:50,226 --> 00:48:53,326
Speaker 3: the floor laying in the corner while Johnny Jenkins was

929
00:48:53,366 --> 00:48:56,086
Speaker 3: recording on the microphone. It just so happened that Johnny

930
00:48:56,126 --> 00:49:01,936
Speaker 3: Jenkins was not a comfortable, confident artist with star potential.

931
00:49:02,436 --> 00:49:05,396
Speaker 3: But No one knew that, and I never to this

932
00:49:05,436 --> 00:49:09,016
Speaker 3: day understood how he got in with Jim, except I

933
00:49:09,056 --> 00:49:12,566
Speaker 3: was told that someone talked Jim into giving him a shot.

934
00:49:13,066 --> 00:49:17,306
Speaker 3: This guy that was driving him asked Al Jackson if

935
00:49:17,366 --> 00:49:19,866
Speaker 3: someone would take a listen to him. They took a

936
00:49:19,886 --> 00:49:24,726
Speaker 3: listen to him, and Otis sang his original song, These

937
00:49:24,926 --> 00:49:29,046
Speaker 3: Arms Are Mine, and changed our world forever. He was

938
00:49:30,206 --> 00:49:33,586
Speaker 3: simply amazing. That's how I met him.

939
00:49:33,606 --> 00:49:36,796
Speaker 2: So you were in the room when he sang that

940
00:49:36,816 --> 00:49:37,586
Speaker 2: for the first time?

941
00:49:37,836 --> 00:49:38,106
Speaker 3: Oh, yes.

942
00:49:38,186 --> 00:49:39,396
Speaker 2: Who else was there? Do you remember?

943
00:49:39,976 --> 00:49:43,296
Speaker 3: Booker T. Jones was there. Not when he did the audition.

944
00:49:43,356 --> 00:49:47,376
Speaker 3: Steve heard him, along with Al Jackson and Jim Stewart.

945
00:49:48,006 --> 00:49:50,166
Speaker 3: I was in the room, but there was no session

946
00:49:50,206 --> 00:49:53,486
Speaker 3: going on. Jim quickly said, let's get some players together

947
00:49:53,986 --> 00:49:57,646
Speaker 3: and put this down. And that's how these songs of

948
00:49:57,666 --> 00:50:01,866
Speaker 3: mine ended up being recorded. But from that point on,

949
00:50:02,966 --> 00:50:05,336
Speaker 3: Otis became friends with everybody, to be honest with you.

950
00:50:05,896 --> 00:50:10,136
Speaker 3: But Otis and I developed a tremendous relationship because I

951
00:50:10,156 --> 00:50:12,636
Speaker 3: was marveling at the fact that Otis would do head

952
00:50:12,676 --> 00:50:15,416
Speaker 3: arrangements with the band. Head arrangements mean he would go

953
00:50:15,456 --> 00:50:18,016
Speaker 3: around the room and give them parts to play. And

954
00:50:18,036 --> 00:50:20,436
Speaker 3: he wouldn't even sing the song. He would just give

955
00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:22,156
Speaker 3: them the parts to play. And when he'd given them

956
00:50:22,176 --> 00:50:24,916
Speaker 3: the parts and they're playing the parts, then he would

957
00:50:24,956 --> 00:50:27,196
Speaker 3: go on the microphone without any lyric sheet or anything

958
00:50:27,216 --> 00:50:30,376
Speaker 3: like that and sing the song. So I found out

959
00:50:30,436 --> 00:50:33,556
Speaker 3: later that he was making up the songs on the spot.

960
00:50:34,196 --> 00:50:39,136
Speaker 3: He was that talented. So he was an amazing gifted talent.

961
00:50:39,176 --> 00:50:41,926
Speaker 3: He left the service much too soon for people to

962
00:50:41,946 --> 00:50:43,806
Speaker 3: find out the totality of his brilliance.

963
00:50:44,166 --> 00:50:45,366
Speaker 2: Now, did you write for him?

964
00:50:46,446 --> 00:50:48,426
Speaker 3: Isaac and I wrote two or three songs for him,

965
00:50:48,526 --> 00:50:51,706
Speaker 3: Trick or Treat. We wrote two or three songs that

966
00:50:51,746 --> 00:50:54,346
Speaker 3: we felt really good about him. I sang with him.

967
00:50:54,526 --> 00:50:57,306
Speaker 3: I sang on a record, the Fair, Fair, Fair, Fair,

968
00:50:57,326 --> 00:51:00,336
Speaker 3: Fair record. That's me singing harmony with him. But Otis

969
00:51:00,376 --> 00:51:02,596
Speaker 3: was such a great writer, and he did a favor

970
00:51:02,656 --> 00:51:06,616
Speaker 3: for us by allowing us to write a couple of songs.

971
00:51:07,296 --> 00:51:10,156
Speaker 3: But he was such an amazing writer himself. He didn't

972
00:51:10,176 --> 00:51:11,076
Speaker 3: need songs from us.

973
00:51:12,316 --> 00:51:14,466
Speaker 2: And then you did go on to, you mentioned you

974
00:51:14,726 --> 00:51:17,506
Speaker 2: did some of your own albums. You did Victim of

975
00:51:17,526 --> 00:51:19,566
Speaker 2: the Joke, Gritty, Groovy.

976
00:51:20,846 --> 00:51:21,796
Speaker 3: Gritty, Groovy, and Gettin' It.

977
00:51:21,826 --> 00:51:24,106
Speaker 2: Gettin' It. I mean, those are great albums, but it

978
00:51:24,226 --> 00:51:26,086
Speaker 2: wasn't your first love was not performing.

979
00:51:26,126 --> 00:51:28,606
Speaker 3: No, I had fun with the records. I did a

980
00:51:28,626 --> 00:51:32,486
Speaker 3: version of Hang On Sloopy on Into a Real Thing

981
00:51:33,026 --> 00:51:35,426
Speaker 3: that I used to love to sing that song because

982
00:51:35,746 --> 00:51:38,106
Speaker 3: I sung it differently in high school. And by the

983
00:51:38,146 --> 00:51:40,446
Speaker 3: time I'm now at Stax Records and have the opportunity

984
00:51:40,746 --> 00:51:42,666
Speaker 3: to call the shots on how I want to record

985
00:51:43,086 --> 00:51:46,016
Speaker 3: these records, I would think of creative ways to do

986
00:51:46,056 --> 00:51:48,936
Speaker 3: the songs. I did the same thing with The Masquerade

987
00:51:48,976 --> 00:51:52,606
Speaker 3: Is Over. So that was fun for me. And so

988
00:51:53,186 --> 00:51:56,826
Speaker 3: I was also pleasantly surprised that they were selling, the

989
00:51:56,926 --> 00:52:01,326
Speaker 3: albums were selling. Isaac was selling Double and Triple Platinum.

990
00:52:01,926 --> 00:52:06,246
Speaker 3: I wasn't in that league. I'm selling 150, 200,000 albums,

991
00:52:06,726 --> 00:52:10,246
Speaker 3: and that's worth your recording, but it wasn't worth me

992
00:52:10,606 --> 00:52:15,026
Speaker 3: putting everything I've got and focusing on just making records.

993
00:52:15,636 --> 00:52:18,476
Speaker 3: But it was enough to make me feel real good

994
00:52:18,836 --> 00:52:21,996
Speaker 3: that people were, to some degree, accepting what I was doing.

995
00:52:22,416 --> 00:52:23,346
Speaker 3: And I had fun with it.

996
00:52:24,936 --> 00:52:28,656
Speaker 2: You write in a really interesting way about the decline

997
00:52:28,696 --> 00:52:31,676
Speaker 2: of Stax when it eventually went bankrupt and it was sold.

998
00:52:32,356 --> 00:52:36,456
Speaker 2: There's this myth around Stax Records that it was torn

999
00:52:36,516 --> 00:52:37,976
Speaker 2: apart by racial division.

1000
00:52:37,996 --> 00:52:38,066
Speaker 1: Huh.

1001
00:52:38,896 --> 00:52:39,396
Speaker 3: That's not true.

1002
00:52:39,656 --> 00:52:42,856
Speaker 2: That there were guns being pulled on people, that Al

1003
00:52:42,896 --> 00:52:45,696
Speaker 2: Bell was a crook. You don't really see it.

1004
00:52:45,676 --> 00:52:49,736
Speaker 3: That way at all. Everything you just mentioned was the

1005
00:52:49,816 --> 00:52:53,366
Speaker 3: furthest thing from the truth. There were many people, because

1006
00:52:53,406 --> 00:52:56,446
Speaker 3: of the notoriety and the popularity of Stax, want to

1007
00:52:56,506 --> 00:53:01,286
Speaker 3: create the aura that they were intricately connected to Stax Records.

1008
00:53:01,966 --> 00:53:04,466
Speaker 3: That was the furthest thing from the truth. I could

1009
00:53:04,526 --> 00:53:07,256
Speaker 3: call names, but I won't call them out now, of

1010
00:53:07,316 --> 00:53:10,396
Speaker 3: people that were doing that. And they had all of

1011
00:53:10,416 --> 00:53:14,846
Speaker 3: these fantasies. The bond that we had in that studio,

1012
00:53:15,346 --> 00:53:19,026
Speaker 3: the whites were Steve Cropper, Doug Dunn, Wayne Jackson. The

1013
00:53:19,046 --> 00:53:23,756
Speaker 3: blacks were Al Jackson Jr., Booker T. Jones, Isaac Hayes,

1014
00:53:23,876 --> 00:53:28,696
Speaker 3: David Porter, Andrew Love, Wayne Jackson. And so that was it.

1015
00:53:29,156 --> 00:53:33,616
Speaker 3: The bond that we had was unbelievable. We would go

1016
00:53:33,676 --> 00:53:36,496
Speaker 3: and play gigs on the weekend. This is before we

1017
00:53:36,536 --> 00:53:41,126
Speaker 3: exploded as recording albums ourselves, Isaac or I. And I'm

1018
00:53:41,416 --> 00:53:44,386
Speaker 3: on the road with Booger T, Booger T and the MGs,

1019
00:53:44,926 --> 00:53:50,566
Speaker 3: Al Jackson Jr., Doug Dunn, Steve Cropper, and we're playing

1020
00:53:50,586 --> 00:53:55,586
Speaker 3: the college circuit. If that was racial, whatever, how would

1021
00:53:55,626 --> 00:53:57,956
Speaker 3: it look for Steve Cropper and Doug Dunn to be

1022
00:53:57,996 --> 00:54:01,316
Speaker 3: traveling all around the country in this station wagons, because

1023
00:54:01,336 --> 00:54:04,256
Speaker 3: we didn't have any limos at that time, that we

1024
00:54:04,456 --> 00:54:07,106
Speaker 3: would go on the road for these performances in. We

1025
00:54:07,146 --> 00:54:09,466
Speaker 3: went through all of that together. And we did it

1026
00:54:09,846 --> 00:54:12,326
Speaker 3: committed and devoted to each other. And when we would

1027
00:54:12,366 --> 00:54:16,026
Speaker 3: come up on a hotel that wouldn't accept us into

1028
00:54:16,066 --> 00:54:19,286
Speaker 3: the hotel, Steve and our duck would not stay in

1029
00:54:19,326 --> 00:54:23,146
Speaker 3: the hotel. They would leave. And so that's the commitment

1030
00:54:23,166 --> 00:54:25,546
Speaker 3: and the bond that we had. And the music that

1031
00:54:25,586 --> 00:54:28,666
Speaker 3: we made, how could you make music as beautiful and

1032
00:54:28,706 --> 00:54:31,826
Speaker 3: connected as that if there was anything remotely close to

1033
00:54:31,846 --> 00:54:35,446
Speaker 3: the vision inside the company? The people who were, like

1034
00:54:35,486 --> 00:54:38,466
Speaker 3: I say, making those fairy tales or people that wanted

1035
00:54:38,486 --> 00:54:40,406
Speaker 3: people to believe that they were connected in some way

1036
00:54:40,826 --> 00:54:44,026
Speaker 3: with Stax, that was the farthest thing from the truth.

1037
00:54:44,506 --> 00:54:47,736
Speaker 3: The beauty of Stax Records lives in through the spirit

1038
00:54:47,756 --> 00:54:50,276
Speaker 3: that you feel from the music. And you feel that

1039
00:54:50,296 --> 00:54:54,116
Speaker 3: spirit from the music because the authenticity of the passion

1040
00:54:54,156 --> 00:54:58,156
Speaker 3: and commitment and the locked in togetherness of the people

1041
00:54:58,656 --> 00:55:03,266
Speaker 3: was felt throughout the energy of that music. Every time

1042
00:55:03,346 --> 00:55:06,426
Speaker 3: a record was played, every time a song was recorded,

1043
00:55:07,126 --> 00:55:11,206
Speaker 3: every time a record was released, it was never released

1044
00:55:11,326 --> 00:55:16,466
Speaker 3: unless it had all those qualities of commitment, passion and togetherness.

1045
00:55:16,996 --> 00:55:18,696
Speaker 3: And that's why those records were successful.

1046
00:55:19,256 --> 00:55:23,496
Speaker 2: You also write about the studios themselves because people talk

1047
00:55:23,536 --> 00:55:27,136
Speaker 2: about the stacked sound. Part of it is a slightly

1048
00:55:27,176 --> 00:55:30,176
Speaker 2: delayed beat on the drums. And you say it's because

1049
00:55:31,116 --> 00:55:32,756
Speaker 2: you had a sloped floor in the room. It was

1050
00:55:32,796 --> 00:55:35,556
Speaker 2: a former theater. Tell me how that affected the sound.

1051
00:55:35,916 --> 00:55:40,456
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, you know, years ago when there were, before

1052
00:55:40,476 --> 00:55:43,406
Speaker 3: all the world of technology as it is today, there

1053
00:55:43,426 --> 00:55:46,006
Speaker 3: were movie theaters where you'd walk inside of the rooms

1054
00:55:46,376 --> 00:55:49,426
Speaker 3: there would be a restroom right at the door so

1055
00:55:49,466 --> 00:55:51,826
Speaker 3: that when you walk to the back of that room,

1056
00:55:51,866 --> 00:55:54,306
Speaker 3: if you're inside of the theater, you open the restroom,

1057
00:55:54,346 --> 00:55:56,966
Speaker 3: the light would not go down and mess up the

1058
00:55:57,046 --> 00:55:59,306
Speaker 3: audience with a light coming on while they're trying to

1059
00:55:59,586 --> 00:56:02,746
Speaker 3: see the movie screen that's going up top as they

1060
00:56:02,786 --> 00:56:05,206
Speaker 3: look up. Well, you also, when you walk in that door,

1061
00:56:05,486 --> 00:56:08,086
Speaker 3: you walk down the floor and the seats would go up.

1062
00:56:08,186 --> 00:56:10,606
Speaker 3: Now you're sitting where everyone is able to see the

1063
00:56:10,626 --> 00:56:14,706
Speaker 3: screen that's up higher. Well, when Jim Stewart got that building,

1064
00:56:15,126 --> 00:56:19,726
Speaker 3: He didn't change the floor. And what happened was the

1065
00:56:19,936 --> 00:56:23,766
Speaker 3: instruments that were put in there to play, Al Jackson Jr.,

1066
00:56:23,596 --> 00:56:25,616
Speaker 3: rather than get at the top of the room as

1067
00:56:25,636 --> 00:56:28,076
Speaker 3: you walk in the door, got all the way at

1068
00:56:28,116 --> 00:56:31,656
Speaker 3: the bottom of the floor, near where the screen would

1069
00:56:31,696 --> 00:56:34,396
Speaker 3: go up to. And that's where he set his drums up.

1070
00:56:35,156 --> 00:56:38,216
Speaker 3: The piano was set up about four feet beyond him

1071
00:56:38,606 --> 00:56:42,686
Speaker 3: going back up the floor. Steve Cropper was another two

1072
00:56:42,746 --> 00:56:46,026
Speaker 3: or three feet above where the piano was. with the guitar.

1073
00:56:46,546 --> 00:56:49,506
Speaker 3: Doug Don was another two or three feet beyond Steve

1074
00:56:49,786 --> 00:56:52,446
Speaker 3: with the bass. The horns were a little bit further

1075
00:56:52,466 --> 00:56:55,266
Speaker 3: than that around a baffle in the center of the room.

1076
00:56:56,006 --> 00:56:59,206
Speaker 3: And there was the organ and the piano in the

1077
00:56:59,326 --> 00:57:05,266
Speaker 3: area toward the wall. Al Jackson had to hear the

1078
00:57:05,306 --> 00:57:07,966
Speaker 3: music being played through the amps. They were not directs

1079
00:57:08,046 --> 00:57:10,226
Speaker 3: at that time where you go directly into the wall,

1080
00:57:10,266 --> 00:57:15,806
Speaker 3: right into the recording mechanisms. It was Through amps. And

1081
00:57:15,866 --> 00:57:20,506
Speaker 3: so there was a natural delay that Al had to

1082
00:57:20,666 --> 00:57:24,046
Speaker 3: adapt to and create what we call a groove or

1083
00:57:24,126 --> 00:57:27,156
Speaker 3: a pocket for the music to feel good. It was

1084
00:57:27,216 --> 00:57:28,976
Speaker 3: not something that had been thought out that we're going

1085
00:57:28,996 --> 00:57:30,756
Speaker 3: to make it this way and we want the flow

1086
00:57:30,776 --> 00:57:34,136
Speaker 3: to be slow. It spoke to the brilliance of Al

1087
00:57:34,176 --> 00:57:38,226
Speaker 3: Jackson Jr., the drummer, being able to adapt to a

1088
00:57:38,316 --> 00:57:42,446
Speaker 3: pocket or a set pattern that merit the credibility of

1089
00:57:42,796 --> 00:57:45,616
Speaker 3: of what everything he was hearing and everybody could feed

1090
00:57:45,716 --> 00:57:49,096
Speaker 3: off of that to lock into where everything was. And

1091
00:57:49,156 --> 00:57:52,776
Speaker 3: that was done in the most amazing way, but it

1092
00:57:52,836 --> 00:57:55,336
Speaker 3: was an accident. It was not something that had been

1093
00:57:55,376 --> 00:57:57,896
Speaker 3: thought out to any credible way. Because here I am

1094
00:57:57,956 --> 00:58:01,276
Speaker 3: at the back of the room with Sam and Dave

1095
00:58:01,586 --> 00:58:06,666
Speaker 3: with our little headset song, singing the songs and laying

1096
00:58:06,686 --> 00:58:09,366
Speaker 3: the vocals and things back to this pocket.

1097
00:58:09,726 --> 00:58:13,856
Speaker 2: Now, were you singing... While the band was playing or

1098
00:58:13,876 --> 00:58:15,436
Speaker 2: did you record the singing later?

1099
00:58:15,736 --> 00:58:18,656
Speaker 3: No, no. You sang while the band was playing. The

1100
00:58:18,696 --> 00:58:20,416
Speaker 3: horns are playing at that same time.

1101
00:58:20,616 --> 00:58:21,156
Speaker 2: Wow.

1102
00:58:21,216 --> 00:58:25,126
Speaker 3: The amazing thing about those records during those times were

1103
00:58:25,446 --> 00:58:29,966
Speaker 3: that when you made the record, you had to do everything.

1104
00:58:30,246 --> 00:58:33,946
Speaker 3: You said one, two, three, four. I mean, the next

1105
00:58:34,006 --> 00:58:38,356
Speaker 3: time the one came, everything had to be perfect on

1106
00:58:38,516 --> 00:58:41,386
Speaker 3: the beat. And it had to be as it needed

1107
00:58:41,406 --> 00:58:44,296
Speaker 3: to be to be a record. So it was not

1108
00:58:44,336 --> 00:58:46,216
Speaker 3: like it is in today's world where you can make

1109
00:58:46,256 --> 00:58:49,136
Speaker 3: mistakes and you can punch in and correct that or

1110
00:58:49,176 --> 00:58:54,376
Speaker 3: correct this. No, the energy, the performance, the pocket, everything

1111
00:58:54,416 --> 00:58:57,796
Speaker 3: had to be with each cut. And that speaks to

1112
00:58:58,596 --> 00:59:03,126
Speaker 3: the emotional commitment of the creative processes with every studio

1113
00:59:03,166 --> 00:59:06,526
Speaker 3: during those times, from Motown to Chess to all, but

1114
00:59:06,566 --> 00:59:09,136
Speaker 3: certainly it stacked with that sloped floor That speaks to

1115
00:59:09,176 --> 00:59:09,936
Speaker 3: what we were doing.

1116
00:59:10,136 --> 00:59:12,616
Speaker 2: So how many takes would you have done of a

1117
00:59:12,656 --> 00:59:14,506
Speaker 2: song like Soul Man, for example?

1118
00:59:15,366 --> 00:59:16,466
Speaker 3: Maybe 12, 13, 14 takes. Mm-hmm.

1119
00:59:19,686 --> 00:59:20,796
Speaker 2: Would you do them all in one day?

1120
00:59:21,296 --> 00:59:24,756
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely. We'd cut four songs in one day. I

1121
00:59:24,776 --> 00:59:28,296
Speaker 3: would be able to teach Sam and Dave all four

1122
00:59:28,336 --> 00:59:30,796
Speaker 3: songs in one day. They were that in tune to

1123
00:59:30,836 --> 00:59:33,336
Speaker 3: what we were doing, and we were that in tune

1124
00:59:33,376 --> 00:59:35,276
Speaker 3: to what we needed to do for them.

1125
00:59:36,016 --> 00:59:40,416
Speaker 2: So a lot of people now hear that stack sound,

1126
00:59:40,436 --> 00:59:42,236
Speaker 2: but they probably don't know they're hearing it. They hear

1127
00:59:42,296 --> 00:59:46,086
Speaker 2: it on Dream Lover by Mariah Carey. There's so many

1128
00:59:46,126 --> 00:59:47,546
Speaker 2: samples of staff songs.

1129
00:59:47,566 --> 00:59:53,756
Speaker 3: Wu-Tang Clan, Will Smith, LL Cool J.

1130
00:59:53,836 --> 00:59:56,796
Speaker 2: Biggie, or all those. So a lot of those, when

1131
00:59:57,036 --> 00:59:59,636
Speaker 2: you go back to those records, you hear Blind Alley

1132
00:59:59,716 --> 01:00:04,016
Speaker 2: by The Emotions. You're like, well, that's where that organ

1133
01:00:04,036 --> 01:00:04,756
Speaker 2: part comes from.

1134
01:00:05,256 --> 01:00:09,216
Speaker 3: Well, that's David Porter. that wrote that song 100% and

1135
01:00:09,236 --> 01:00:14,956
Speaker 3: produced that record in 1973. And Blind Alley, it happens

1136
01:00:14,996 --> 01:00:17,546
Speaker 3: to be one of the most sample pieces of work

1137
01:00:17,586 --> 01:00:19,086
Speaker 3: that ever came out of Stax Records.

1138
01:00:19,666 --> 01:00:20,026
Speaker 1: Really?

1139
01:00:20,366 --> 01:00:20,686
Speaker 3: Oh, yes.

1140
01:00:20,706 --> 01:00:22,166
Speaker 2: Do you make sure you get paid for those?

1141
01:00:22,806 --> 01:00:24,346
Speaker 3: I'd have to be kind of crazy if I didn't

1142
01:00:24,386 --> 01:00:26,726
Speaker 3: make sure. I may be a lot of things, but

1143
01:00:26,746 --> 01:00:31,686
Speaker 3: I'm not crazy. No, it's been real good for me.

1144
01:00:31,926 --> 01:00:34,166
Speaker 2: So after all this, you still live in Memphis.

1145
01:00:34,436 --> 01:00:36,676
Speaker 3: I still live in Memphis. I I certainly want to

1146
01:00:36,696 --> 01:00:39,216
Speaker 3: give something back to a community that has given so

1147
01:00:39,236 --> 01:00:39,716
Speaker 3: much to me.

1148
01:00:41,556 --> 01:00:43,296
Speaker 2: And so what are you doing now?

1149
01:00:43,916 --> 01:00:48,886
Speaker 3: I have a nonprofit. The nonprofit is called The Consortium.

1150
01:00:48,926 --> 01:00:52,486
Speaker 3: That's T-H-E is important part of the name of the organization.

1151
01:00:52,886 --> 01:00:59,126
Speaker 3: The Consortium MMT. So you can go to the consortiummmt.org

1152
01:00:59,646 --> 01:01:02,906
Speaker 3: and you'll be surprised to see that that is a

1153
01:01:02,946 --> 01:01:05,886
Speaker 3: program that is free to young people who have aspirations.

1154
01:01:06,316 --> 01:01:08,236
Speaker 3: to be in the music business. It gives you the

1155
01:01:08,296 --> 01:01:11,236
Speaker 3: principles and processes of some of the greatest artists who

1156
01:01:11,296 --> 01:01:15,016
Speaker 3: ever lived. Philip Bailey talks about how to be a

1157
01:01:15,036 --> 01:01:18,666
Speaker 3: vocalist who takes care of their voice. Valerie Simpson talks

1158
01:01:18,726 --> 01:01:22,206
Speaker 3: about the writing structure of songs and how to make

1159
01:01:22,246 --> 01:01:25,726
Speaker 3: those magical. Stevie Wonder talks about how to come up

1160
01:01:25,746 --> 01:01:29,746
Speaker 3: with concepts of lyric and melody and that you can

1161
01:01:29,786 --> 01:01:32,866
Speaker 3: make the uniqueness and individuality of what you're doing have

1162
01:01:32,926 --> 01:01:40,166
Speaker 3: its own persona to it. Valerie Simpson, Eric Benet, Philip Bailey,

1163
01:01:40,726 --> 01:01:44,226
Speaker 3: Jimmy Jams. The list is so long. I have 130

1164
01:01:44,226 --> 01:01:46,896
Speaker 3: plus videos of some of the biggest names in our

1165
01:01:46,916 --> 01:01:51,196
Speaker 3: business talking about processes that are used to make great

1166
01:01:51,276 --> 01:01:54,596
Speaker 3: music from our day. And it's given freely to young people.

1167
01:01:54,676 --> 01:01:58,016
Speaker 3: And we stress that there are no new emotions. You

1168
01:01:58,056 --> 01:02:00,496
Speaker 3: have to find fresh ways to talk about common emotions.

1169
01:02:00,856 --> 01:02:03,836
Speaker 3: So you're finding... just a fresh way to talk about

1170
01:02:03,896 --> 01:02:06,336
Speaker 3: something that is the same thing. So you can benefit

1171
01:02:06,816 --> 01:02:09,856
Speaker 3: from hearing the expertise of some of these talents in

1172
01:02:09,896 --> 01:02:12,666
Speaker 3: this program. And so I wanted to do that and

1173
01:02:12,686 --> 01:02:17,046
Speaker 3: it's done free. In addition to that, I'm passionate about

1174
01:02:17,506 --> 01:02:20,466
Speaker 3: the soul man life of songwriter David Porter, because I

1175
01:02:20,526 --> 01:02:23,926
Speaker 3: want to create as many opportunities as I can to

1176
01:02:23,966 --> 01:02:27,936
Speaker 3: give people insights about the credibility and the magic of

1177
01:02:27,976 --> 01:02:31,316
Speaker 3: what was once Stax Records and still is Stax. stacks

1178
01:02:31,336 --> 01:02:35,246
Speaker 3: to the credibility of music, but also to be just

1179
01:02:35,346 --> 01:02:39,106
Speaker 3: documented for young folk in the future to realize that

1180
01:02:39,126 --> 01:02:42,126
Speaker 3: there were people like me who was passionate about a

1181
01:02:42,146 --> 01:02:44,496
Speaker 3: thing called music out of respect for what it had

1182
01:02:44,506 --> 01:02:46,036
Speaker 3: done so much for him.

1183
01:02:47,156 --> 01:02:49,316
Speaker 2: Well, the emotion right now is gratitude. Thank you so

1184
01:02:49,356 --> 01:02:53,016
Speaker 2: much for coming in. It's fascinating and just some of

1185
01:02:53,036 --> 01:02:54,996
Speaker 2: the greatest records ever made. Thank you so much.

1186
01:02:55,636 --> 01:02:57,506
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I really have

1187
01:02:57,646 --> 01:02:58,726
Speaker 3: enjoyed the time with you.

1188
01:03:01,976 --> 01:03:04,266
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with

1189
01:03:04,326 --> 01:03:07,506
Speaker 1: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

1190
01:03:07,666 --> 01:03:11,426
Speaker 1: is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1191
01:03:11,746 --> 01:03:12,886
Speaker 3: If you love this show.

1192
01:03:12,766 --> 01:03:16,366
Speaker 1: And others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin

1193
01:03:16,386 --> 01:03:19,226
Speaker 1: Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and

1194
01:03:19,346 --> 01:03:22,576
Speaker 1: ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month. Look for Pushkin Plus

1195
01:03:22,616 --> 01:03:25,756
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show,

1196
01:03:25,856 --> 01:03:27,736
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review us on your

1197
01:03:27,756 --> 01:03:31,236
Speaker 1: podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.