WEBVTT - Truth Be Revealed 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to the Pikedon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:10.639 Katie's Studios, Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the course 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.159 of seven episodes, we have examined the details of the 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.120 murders of eight members of the Rodent family, the investigation 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.319 that was launched in their wake, and what led up 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.000 to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.520 Now we're going to look at where the case stands 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:28.960 and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.680 Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.120 Leidecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week, 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.440 it was June twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.040 was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom. 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:45.880 She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:51.040 and connection with the Rodent murders. Here's Frederica's niece Deray 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:52.519 defending her aunt's claims. 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:57.440 First, the prosecutors falsely believed the bulletproof best were purchased 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:01.840 before the road and homicides. Both sides know that it 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.399 is not true. They were in fact purchased on May 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:10.280 the seventh, twenty sixteen, fifteen days after the date of 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:11.680 the road homicides. 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:14.440 So that's proven. We know that there's like receipts, right. 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.320 Yep, got receipts. We have everything. 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.959 Second, she guessed and thought that she bought them from Amazon. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:28.600 Now why they made a big deal about what what origin? 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.560 They came off the internet? She ordered them off the internet. 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.440 Whenever you go on the Internet, a bunch of places 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.440 come up. Usually Amazon's the first thing that comes up. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.560 She did that a lot, but they made a big 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:45.400 deal about it. So they went back through her books 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.000 and they found out that she did buy them, but 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.120 it wasn't from Amazon, it was eBay. 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.760 But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told Jeff that Frederica's 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.440 statements are a much bigger deal than deraythe. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.720 Well, obviously, when you have a situation like this and 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.040 someone involved with the people that are charged makes a 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.920 purchase of two bulletproof vests, whether it's from eBay or Amazon, 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.600 it's something that the prosecution would be interested in. And 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.120 you know, she apparently was before the grand jury when 0:02:20.160 --> 0:02:24.960 she misrepresented, if you will, where she bought these things from. 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:29.000 And it's relevant and also too. I think it would 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.639 be fair to say that the prosecution probably wanted this 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.080 put on of these charges put on her to have 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.000 a little bit of leverage with her too. 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.520 Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh, 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.440 I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney, 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.359 do you think that makes someone look more guilty? 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:47.720 Yeah, it does, especially something like this. And I know 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:51.320 she's elderly, but she certainly seems like she's pretty sharp. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.160 But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:00.840 if they purchase bulletproof vests online or any you purchased them, 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.200 you would think that you would remember where you purchased 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.200 them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look good 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.480 at all. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.320 Ultimately, Frederica Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that proved she made 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:19.560 the purchases fifteen days after the slayings. This led the 0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.480 defense team to turn over potential evidence as required to 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.200 the prosecution, too late to meet the criteria for a 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.840 speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against Frederica Wagner, while 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:34.000 reserving the right to charge her again. Mike Allen broke 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:35.360 down what all this means. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.920 With respect to the Ohio Speedy Trial Statute. It's generally 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.520 you have to bring a felony case within two hundred 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.200 and seventy days from the indictment. I think the prosecution 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.680 was running out of time, so strategically, I think they 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.640 decided to dismiss it with the option and the right 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:55.280 to refile it again if that becomes necessary. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.960 So so you can get charged with the same crimes again. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:00.760 Oh yeah, they were dismissed without prejudice, which means that 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.320 the state can refile them at a later date. 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.440 But it seems that Frederica Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.440 She is speaking to the press after the. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.240 Hearing, Trusting the Lord with all your heart, lean not 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.039 to your own understanding in all your ways, Acknowledge him 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.680 and he will direct your path. And as my attorney 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.160 will tell you, it was dismissed. 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:25.960 Because I was innocent. 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.799 They had no evidence against me. I never lied about anything. 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:37.320 Frederica Wagner's freedom validates what Deray has believed all along. 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:43.599 She has never in her life done anything wrong. 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:45.640 She's not capable of it. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.080 And you know, if she thought that her kids would 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:54.960 have done something bad, she would have recommended. 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.680 That they turn themselves in for anything. 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:01.640 I mean, she loves. She lives by what she says 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:08.640 she lives by, which is what well. She gives all 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:09.559 the glory to God. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:16.599 Angela, Billy Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:20.360 Angela Wagner's mother, Rita jo Nucom and Billy Wagner's mother, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.600 Frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.040 Newcomb was also charged with forgery. All six of them 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.480 pled not guilty, and our justice system presumes innocence until 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:37.400 guilt is proven. But one thing that doesn't help Frederica 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:40.359 Wagner's case is a revelation by the prosecution at a 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.760 pre trial hearing for her son Billy in twenty twenty, 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.039 the state submitted evidence showing that the night before Frederica 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.200 testified before the grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:56.000 searched the Internet for information about penalties for perjury. Here's 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.880 our anonymous Wagner family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:02.960 Do you think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, do 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:04.160 you think she had any involvement? 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.680 I believe that. I believe she could have yeah, I 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.320 believe that she definitely, Uh, I don't believe she tried 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.680 to stop it, you know, I don't believe that she. 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.400 I believe that anything. She probably definely she would have 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.839 encouraged it and her storry to do. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:21.440 What he did. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.799 Others like Rodent family friend Stephanne thinks that Frederica wasn't 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:30.880 just involved in the murders, but could possibly have orchestrated 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:31.360 the whole thing. 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.359 I don't take her for a dumb woman at all. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:39.240 She's a business woman. She's probably shrewd. She's the head 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:43.400 the monarch, you know, so the monarch is usually the 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.560 one that has their thumb on everybody. She wanted to 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:49.720 control over everything, seems to me. 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:56.120 Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the alleged involvement of 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.600 Frederica Wagner up ends conventions of who actually could be 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.640 capable of being involved in murder. 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.600 I think this case, if it ended today as it 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.000 is alleged, I don't think there is anybody on this 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.520 planet that can look at those people and say, those 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:16.600 people look like a family who could slaughter eight human beings. 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.480 If you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.560 looked like, I think this case in Pike County is 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.760 showing you you have no idea. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.640 So here we are four years later. Two of the 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.000 six defendants are free and four others are in prison 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.360 facing death penalty charges, accused of killing eight members of 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.760 the Rodent family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.960 As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.400 and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.400 few months. Now I really understand this case and where 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:49.680 it stands and what's to come, we'll have to examine 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.560 some of the most important points. In the five thousand 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:57.000 pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence, there 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.800 are more than three hundred and thirty two thousand files 0:07:59.840 --> 0:08:01.200 of evidence in this case. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.280 One of the exhibits in the prosecution's arsenal is related 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.560 to Billy Wagner in his copy of the nineteen ninety 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.440 nine movie The Boondock Saints. The film is about two 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.720 brothers in Boston who exacted a form of vigilanty justice 0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:16.360 by murdering mobsters and other criminals. It's extremely violent and 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.200 over the top, but the big takeaway for this case 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.720 is that the brothers in the film use silencers on 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.640 their guns, a method that members of the Wagner family 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:27.760 are accused of using to execute the Rodents. As we 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.080 covered in the last episode, a homemade silencer was discovered 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:33.680 at a farm once owned by Jake and George Wagner, 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.800 but Deray thinks the connection is tenuous at best. 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:43.000 I read that and I had to laugh. I had 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:48.440 to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have to remember 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:58.520 that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution. This 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.560 is something that you wouldn't learn. 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:02.720 On a DVD. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:11.360 Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.760 it was brilliant. 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:14.560 They're professional. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:17.920 These people are not professional killers. 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.600 Mike Allen told Jeff that the DVD could be a 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:25.160 building block in the state's case. 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.040 You can't watch a movie and learn how to wipe 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.000 out an entire family. That seems like a stretch. What 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:32.640 is your take on that. 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:35.880 Yeah, I don't think they could introduce it for the 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.800 proposition that that's how the Wagners learned how to do that. 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.040 I think if the state introduced it or attempted to 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:46.840 get it introduced, it would just be kind of peripheral 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.800 to like Hey, you know somebody in that family watched 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.800 that movie or ordered that movie or bought that movie, 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:57.840 and it's a movie about vigil anti justice. But I 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:01.320 would certainly try at least because apparently in this case, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.160 the allegation is silencers were used, and they were used 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.600 in that movie as well, So it would be one 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.960 piece of evidence that they could add on to other evidence. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.440 It would be a piece of evidence if admitted, that 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:18.520 they could talk about in closing arguments. So, while not 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.199 determinative in any way, shape or form, it is evidence 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:24.959 that could be helpful to the state. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:29.760 There's a mountain of other evidence. The prosecution plans on 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.040 using one that stands out as an Excel spreadsheet that 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.960 contains five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody. 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:40.320 I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.840 evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.560 they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:53.439 child custody and Facebook screenshots. Regarding it, what does that tell. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:56.920 You, Well, it tells me that could be part of 0:10:56.960 --> 0:10:59.920 the motive in this case, and it's pretty strong evidence 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.040 motive if they're keeping all these things in screenshots, and 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.240 it seems that they were kind of obsessed with his 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:11.800 desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial, 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.520 but in circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.960 Just because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.120 good evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:26.920 you're dropping, you know, pebbles into a pond. Every little 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.400 pebble makes a ripple, and you know, you build on 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.000 those things, and at the end of the day, if 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:36.160 the prosecution does it right, every little bit helps with 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:37.600 respect to building a case. 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.640 The discovery documents also include information about a person that 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.400 some speculator could be an informant Jody Barr told us 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:51.280 about trying to track down this source. The name of 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.640 the informant has not been published, which is why it's 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:54.680 bleeped in his interview. 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.079 Only thing I know is that was a name given 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.800 very early on who I was told did business with 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.920 Chris Rodin. I was never able to even find that 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:07.199 this person exists. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:11.280 I guess they did. This person really does exist. But 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:12.880 when I was given a list of names. 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.160 Of people who could have potentially either been involved in 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.800 this knew about this This is one person I tried 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.199 to track down and find over in Sciota County, which 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:24.560 is just across the line from Pike, and I was 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:25.880 never able to find this person. 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:30.320 But I was told that this person knew Chris Senior. 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.240 It's me as far as you know, they were together 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:38.280 a lot, and they were in some business ventures together. 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.120 But again I was never able to find this person 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:47.840 or to verify anything that was ever told me about them. 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.720 Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.360 of a specific meeting at Frederica Wagner's home. It occurred 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.480 with the other accused family members and allegedly included talk 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.000 of quote taking revenge on a special agent then Attorney 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:08.959 General Mike DeWine and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader. The 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.839 revengel was allegedly planned if her family was arrested. Jody 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.240 Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.960 It just seems so careless that the people accused of 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:23.120 this would be bringing outsiders into a home, although we 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.760 don't know who the confidential informant is, but that they 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.760 would risk getting caught if they were so skillful in 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.840 pulling this off that they would bring outsiders in to 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:37.280 have discussions like this where they're number one admitting it essentially, 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.199 But secondly, you're talking about taking hits out on the 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.720 chief law enforcer in Pike County and the chief law 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:45.600 enforcement for the state of Ohio. 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.000 But that's an interesting point that it doesn't really compute 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:49.560 that if they were like Ninja's and they could do 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.040 this elaborate crime, why would they be so sloppy then 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.480 to have these conversations with other people. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.680 When I see confidential informant in this sentence, man, a 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:00.600 part of me goes, I wonder if one of the 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:07.319 Wagners has rolled over and is helping this investigations still 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.559 something I know there have been some plea deals already 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:13.880 made here, some charges dismissed. 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.720 But you've got to wonder who. 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.520 Is this informant, because if it's a member of the 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.200 Wagner family, and I think that's a twist no one 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:22.800 saw coming. 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.680 Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:43.960 back in a moment. The discovery documents also have twenty 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:48.320 nine and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike Allen 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.400 spoke to us about the role of DNA could play 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:51.239 in the case. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.120 I can tell you from dealing with DNA evidence, both 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:58.120 as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, that's not 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:02.000 good news for the defense. If they've got almost three 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.680 thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would have been 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.520 sent to the lab and comes back, they've got to 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.640 have something. I mean, I would be shocked if they 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:15.880 didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at least one 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.960 of these defendants, probably more of them. That's bad news 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.160 for the defense. There's just no way of getting around it. 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:30.720 Because DNA evidence, if extracted properly and analyzed properly, it's 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.200 pretty much lights out if they did it correctly. So 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.600 I think that's problematic for the defense. 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.320 Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:46.800 In addition, the report also lists and seventy crime scene photos, 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.120 cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.360 their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.160 recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.960 pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago, 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.640 we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have. 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.880 So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.520 to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.600 on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.760 the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.760 argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.480 detectives on the case testified that he and his team 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.880 have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:29.400 with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.160 a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:38.400 and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.720 that shoe prints from the exact same shoes purchased at 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.680 Walmart by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.720 you remember, James Manly, were found in dried blood at 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:52.360 two of the crime scenes. And get this, In fact, 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.200 receipts for those exact same shoes, they're a very specific 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:00.480 Walmart athletic shoe were found during a search of Wagner 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:05.040 property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.560 recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner, who claimed there 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.520 really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:15.760 Hannah Rodin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:16.960 is just not true. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.800 Right. So with all of this, the Wagners still continued 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.760 to declare their innocence. Is it really possible that they did, 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.080 in fact have nothing to do with it? Well, recently 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:27.520 one of the Wagner's lawyers made statements to the press 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.480 saying that a loose custody arrangement between Jake Wagner and 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.760 Hannah fur their daughter Sophia, was being formalized by another 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:36.480 attorney in Ohio at the time of the killings, but 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.040 due to the fact that Hannah was murdered, the agreement 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:42.760 was never formalized, so it's not permissible in court. I 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.480 spoke with Deray about her second cousin, Jake Wagner, to 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.320 see if we could get any more information on the 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.520 custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodin. Do you know 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.560 anything about like they were trying to get custody of 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.200 Sophia before the murders. 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:56.840 I don't know anything about that. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.679 Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah, because you hear 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:00.399 a lot of that. 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.840 Yeah, I never heard, you know, I talked to my 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.320 antalot that was never mentioned. 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.160 So do you think that that is fabricated as well? 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.960 If I'm hearing you right, I don't believe that it 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:14.920 has anything. 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:15.000 To do with it. 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:18.960 I don't believe there was a custody battle. I think 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:20.879 that's another made up lie. 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.040 What makes you say that because. 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.679 I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it, 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:31.120 but we don't know who, and we're for sure it 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:32.879 wasn't the Wagner family. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:35.400 It's a tragedy, and most. 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.760 Of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:42.760 it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking. 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.080 We don't know. It's who knows. 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.040 It's a mystery. 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.040 We found it strange for a woman who covers her 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.160 family's case closely not to know anything about the custody 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.280 issues that other family relatives disclosed to us before. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.480 Even stranger is something else that was presented at George 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.400 Wagner's most recent pre trial hearing. Again he's the eldest son. 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:10.000 Prosecutors pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.880 Rodin to one of her friends. In this message, she's 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.480 discussing the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.919 custody documents. The ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.320 Now get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:29.800 family computer seized during the investigation, and again allegedly the 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:33.080 Wagner's got it by hacking into Hannah Rodin's Facebook account. 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:38.119 The message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:41.919 I quote, I won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen. 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.080 They'll have to kill me first end quote. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.359 It does seem clear that the Wagners were sort of 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.959 obsessed with custody and control of Sophia, and in speaking 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.760 with people close to the family, this actually wasn't the 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.800 first time custody became an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabby, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.600 was married to George Wagner for several years. The two 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:08.520 had a son together, but eventually split up. 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.240 According to Christina, following their divorce, the Wagner family tried 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.280 to force Tabby into handing over custody of their son. 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.920 This is Christina's recollection of events. She spoke to Jeff 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:19.359 about it. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:25.720 Somehow or another angela like manipulated her with different papers 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:30.119 to sign and stuff, and they had Tabby finding over 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:35.360 the rights and custody to George. You know, they had 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:40.640 money for expensive lawyer. Tabby didn't, and so they had 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.879 custody plumb up until you know, they got caught and 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:46.440 stuff for the crimes. 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.320 Do you think that she was obsessed with having custody 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:50.639 of all of her grandkids? 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:51.199 Oh? 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:52.080 Yeah, definitely. 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:53.440 Why do you say that? 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.360 Tabby Like whenever she would try to reach out to George, like, hey, 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.400 can I come visit my son, and Angela would get 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:05.119 on there and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.800 Would tell Tabby like, oh, you might have gave birth 0:21:08.880 --> 0:21:12.280 to him, but I'm his real mother because I take 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.639 care of him, and all these just nasty things. 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:21.719 And Christina told us that in the aftermath of Tabby 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:25.280 and George's custody battle, Hannah rode In contacted Tabby for 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.680 advice and how to deal with their own custody issues 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:28.840 with the Wagoners. 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:33.199 I knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.479 Sophia because she went to her and my sister were 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.440 pretty close, and you know, Tabby straight up told her 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:44.960 like a if they present me with papers, do not 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:47.760 sign them. Give them to a lawyer first. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:49.720 Let the lawyer read it. 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:54.240 Over and proceed from there, because they will try to 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:58.520 steal custody of Sophia, even if they're trying to act 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:03.720 like they're understated, and all of the swords. Do not 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.240 listen to them because they will scree you over. 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.520 Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.440 to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin, 0:22:16.600 --> 0:22:19.239 clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.640 it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked Deray about 0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:27.760 George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims. 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.840 I want your side of this. People say that, like 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:33.239 George had a custody situation where he tried to get 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.879 custody of his son Jake, maybe a similar situation. People 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.119 are saying that, like Angela was just obsessed with getting 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.800 the kids and wanted all the control of the children. 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:43.800 Yeah. 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.520 I don't believe that. I don't believe that. 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.480 I know she loved him, but I don't believe. 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:53.040 She was obsessed. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:55.679 I think she was a normal grandmother and then she 0:22:55.760 --> 0:23:00.440 was an excellent role model. 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.840 While we don't know all the details of George Wagner 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.920 and Tabby's custody case. There is evidence that the Wagners 0:23:05.960 --> 0:23:08.719