1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Pikedon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: Katie's Studios, Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the course 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,159 Speaker 1: of seven episodes, we have examined the details of the 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: murders of eight members of the Rodent family, the investigation 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: that was launched in their wake, and what led up 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family. 7 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Now we're going to look at where the case stands 8 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm 9 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: Leidecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week, 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: it was June twenty sixth, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner 12 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom. 13 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury 14 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: and connection with the Rodent murders. Here's Frederica's niece Deray 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: defending her aunt's claims. 16 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: First, the prosecutors falsely believed the bulletproof best were purchased 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: before the road and homicides. Both sides know that it 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 2: is not true. They were in fact purchased on May 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: the seventh, twenty sixteen, fifteen days after the date of 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 2: the road homicides. 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 3: So that's proven. We know that there's like receipts, right. 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 4: Yep, got receipts. We have everything. 23 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: Second, she guessed and thought that she bought them from Amazon. 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: Now why they made a big deal about what what origin? 25 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 4: They came off the internet? She ordered them off the internet. 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 2: Whenever you go on the Internet, a bunch of places 27 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: come up. Usually Amazon's the first thing that comes up. 28 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: She did that a lot, but they made a big 29 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 2: deal about it. So they went back through her books 30 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 2: and they found out that she did buy them, but 31 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't from Amazon, it was eBay. 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told Jeff that Frederica's 33 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: statements are a much bigger deal than deraythe. 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 5: Well, obviously, when you have a situation like this and 35 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 5: someone involved with the people that are charged makes a 36 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 5: purchase of two bulletproof vests, whether it's from eBay or Amazon, 37 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 5: it's something that the prosecution would be interested in. And 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 5: you know, she apparently was before the grand jury when 39 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 5: she misrepresented, if you will, where she bought these things from. 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 5: And it's relevant and also too. I think it would 41 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 5: be fair to say that the prosecution probably wanted this 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 5: put on of these charges put on her to have 43 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 5: a little bit of leverage with her too. 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 3: Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh, 45 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney, 46 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 3: do you think that makes someone look more guilty? 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, it does, especially something like this. And I know 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 5: she's elderly, but she certainly seems like she's pretty sharp. 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 5: But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives, 50 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 5: if they purchase bulletproof vests online or any you purchased them, 51 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 5: you would think that you would remember where you purchased 52 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 5: them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look good 53 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 5: at all. 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: Ultimately, Frederica Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that proved she made 55 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: the purchases fifteen days after the slayings. This led the 56 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: defense team to turn over potential evidence as required to 57 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: the prosecution, too late to meet the criteria for a 58 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against Frederica Wagner, while 59 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: reserving the right to charge her again. Mike Allen broke 60 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: down what all this means. 61 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 5: With respect to the Ohio Speedy Trial Statute. It's generally 62 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 5: you have to bring a felony case within two hundred 63 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 5: and seventy days from the indictment. I think the prosecution 64 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 5: was running out of time, so strategically, I think they 65 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 5: decided to dismiss it with the option and the right 66 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 5: to refile it again if that becomes necessary. 67 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: So so you can get charged with the same crimes again. 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they were dismissed without prejudice, which means that 69 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 5: the state can refile them at a later date. 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: But it seems that Frederica Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. 71 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: She is speaking to the press after the. 72 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 6: Hearing, Trusting the Lord with all your heart, lean not 73 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 6: to your own understanding in all your ways, Acknowledge him 74 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 6: and he will direct your path. And as my attorney 75 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 6: will tell you, it was dismissed. 76 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 4: Because I was innocent. 77 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 6: They had no evidence against me. I never lied about anything. 78 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner's freedom validates what Deray has believed all along. 79 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: She has never in her life done anything wrong. 80 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 4: She's not capable of it. 81 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: And you know, if she thought that her kids would 82 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: have done something bad, she would have recommended. 83 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 4: That they turn themselves in for anything. 84 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 2: I mean, she loves. She lives by what she says 85 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 2: she lives by, which is what well. She gives all 86 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:09,559 Speaker 2: the glory to God. 87 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: Angela, Billy Jake, and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. 88 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner's mother, Rita jo Nucom and Billy Wagner's mother, 89 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: Frederica were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. 90 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: Newcomb was also charged with forgery. All six of them 91 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: pled not guilty, and our justice system presumes innocence until 92 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: guilt is proven. But one thing that doesn't help Frederica 93 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: Wagner's case is a revelation by the prosecution at a 94 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: pre trial hearing for her son Billy in twenty twenty, 95 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 1: the state submitted evidence showing that the night before Frederica 96 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: testified before the grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had 97 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: searched the Internet for information about penalties for perjury. Here's 98 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: our anonymous Wagner family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. 99 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 3: Do you think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, do 100 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 3: you think she had any involvement? 101 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 7: I believe that. I believe she could have yeah, I 102 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 7: believe that she definitely, Uh, I don't believe she tried 103 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 7: to stop it, you know, I don't believe that she. 104 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 7: I believe that anything. She probably definely she would have 105 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 7: encouraged it and her storry to do. 106 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 8: What he did. 107 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 1: Others like Rodent family friend Stephanne thinks that Frederica wasn't 108 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: just involved in the murders, but could possibly have orchestrated 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the whole thing. 110 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 9: I don't take her for a dumb woman at all. 111 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 9: She's a business woman. She's probably shrewd. She's the head 112 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 9: the monarch, you know, so the monarch is usually the 113 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 9: one that has their thumb on everybody. She wanted to 114 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 9: control over everything, seems to me. 115 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the alleged involvement of 116 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: Frederica Wagner up ends conventions of who actually could be 117 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: capable of being involved in murder. 118 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 10: I think this case, if it ended today as it 119 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 10: is alleged, I don't think there is anybody on this 120 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 10: planet that can look at those people and say, those 121 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 10: people look like a family who could slaughter eight human beings. 122 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 10: If you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer 123 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 10: looked like, I think this case in Pike County is 124 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 10: showing you you have no idea. 125 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: So here we are four years later. Two of the 126 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: six defendants are free and four others are in prison 127 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: facing death penalty charges, accused of killing eight members of 128 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: the Rodent family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 129 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 11: As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, 130 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 11: and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next 131 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 11: few months. Now I really understand this case and where 132 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 11: it stands and what's to come, we'll have to examine 133 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 11: some of the most important points. In the five thousand 134 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 11: pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence, there 135 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 11: are more than three hundred and thirty two thousand files 136 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 11: of evidence in this case. 137 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 3: One of the exhibits in the prosecution's arsenal is related 138 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: to Billy Wagner in his copy of the nineteen ninety 139 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 3: nine movie The Boondock Saints. The film is about two 140 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 3: brothers in Boston who exacted a form of vigilanty justice 141 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: by murdering mobsters and other criminals. It's extremely violent and 142 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: over the top, but the big takeaway for this case 143 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 3: is that the brothers in the film use silencers on 144 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: their guns, a method that members of the Wagner family 145 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: are accused of using to execute the Rodents. As we 146 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 3: covered in the last episode, a homemade silencer was discovered 147 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 3: at a farm once owned by Jake and George Wagner, 148 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 3: but Deray thinks the connection is tenuous at best. 149 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: I read that and I had to laugh. I had 150 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have to remember 151 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution. This 152 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 2: is something that you wouldn't learn. 153 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 4: On a DVD. 154 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did 155 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: it was brilliant. 156 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 5: They're professional. 157 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 2: These people are not professional killers. 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: Mike Allen told Jeff that the DVD could be a 159 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: building block in the state's case. 160 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: You can't watch a movie and learn how to wipe 161 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: out an entire family. That seems like a stretch. What 162 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: is your take on that. 163 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think they could introduce it for the 164 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 5: proposition that that's how the Wagners learned how to do that. 165 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 5: I think if the state introduced it or attempted to 166 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 5: get it introduced, it would just be kind of peripheral 167 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 5: to like Hey, you know somebody in that family watched 168 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 5: that movie or ordered that movie or bought that movie, 169 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 5: and it's a movie about vigil anti justice. But I 170 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 5: would certainly try at least because apparently in this case, 171 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 5: the allegation is silencers were used, and they were used 172 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 5: in that movie as well, So it would be one 173 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 5: piece of evidence that they could add on to other evidence. 174 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 5: It would be a piece of evidence if admitted, that 175 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 5: they could talk about in closing arguments. So, while not 176 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 5: determinative in any way, shape or form, it is evidence 177 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 5: that could be helpful to the state. 178 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: There's a mountain of other evidence. The prosecution plans on 179 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: using one that stands out as an Excel spreadsheet that 180 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: contains five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody. 181 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of 182 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently 183 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about 184 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: child custody and Facebook screenshots. Regarding it, what does that tell. 185 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 5: You, Well, it tells me that could be part of 186 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 5: the motive in this case, and it's pretty strong evidence 187 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 5: motive if they're keeping all these things in screenshots, and 188 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 5: it seems that they were kind of obsessed with his 189 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 5: desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial, 190 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 5: but in circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. 191 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 5: Just because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not 192 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 5: good evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like 193 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 5: you're dropping, you know, pebbles into a pond. Every little 194 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 5: pebble makes a ripple, and you know, you build on 195 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 5: those things, and at the end of the day, if 196 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 5: the prosecution does it right, every little bit helps with 197 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 5: respect to building a case. 198 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: The discovery documents also include information about a person that 199 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: some speculator could be an informant Jody Barr told us 200 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: about trying to track down this source. The name of 201 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: the informant has not been published, which is why it's 202 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: bleeped in his interview. 203 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 10: Only thing I know is that was a name given 204 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 10: very early on who I was told did business with 205 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 10: Chris Rodin. I was never able to even find that 206 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 10: this person exists. 207 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 4: I guess they did. This person really does exist. But 208 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 4: when I was given a list of names. 209 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 10: Of people who could have potentially either been involved in 210 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 10: this knew about this This is one person I tried 211 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,199 Speaker 10: to track down and find over in Sciota County, which 212 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 10: is just across the line from Pike, and I was 213 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 10: never able to find this person. 214 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 4: But I was told that this person knew Chris Senior. 215 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 10: It's me as far as you know, they were together 216 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 10: a lot, and they were in some business ventures together. 217 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 10: But again I was never able to find this person 218 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 10: or to verify anything that was ever told me about them. 219 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them 220 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: of a specific meeting at Frederica Wagner's home. It occurred 221 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: with the other accused family members and allegedly included talk 222 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: of quote taking revenge on a special agent then Attorney 223 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: General Mike DeWine and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader. The 224 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 1: revengel was allegedly planned if her family was arrested. Jody 225 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. 226 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 10: It just seems so careless that the people accused of 227 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 10: this would be bringing outsiders into a home, although we 228 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 10: don't know who the confidential informant is, but that they 229 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 10: would risk getting caught if they were so skillful in 230 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 10: pulling this off that they would bring outsiders in to 231 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 10: have discussions like this where they're number one admitting it essentially, 232 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 10: But secondly, you're talking about taking hits out on the 233 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 10: chief law enforcer in Pike County and the chief law 234 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 10: enforcement for the state of Ohio. 235 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 3: But that's an interesting point that it doesn't really compute 236 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 3: that if they were like Ninja's and they could do 237 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: this elaborate crime, why would they be so sloppy then 238 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: to have these conversations with other people. 239 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 10: When I see confidential informant in this sentence, man, a 240 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 10: part of me goes, I wonder if one of the 241 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 10: Wagners has rolled over and is helping this investigations still 242 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 10: something I know there have been some plea deals already 243 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 10: made here, some charges dismissed. 244 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 4: But you've got to wonder who. 245 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 10: Is this informant, because if it's a member of the 246 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 10: Wagner family, and I think that's a twist no one 247 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 10: saw coming. 248 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be 249 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: back in a moment. The discovery documents also have twenty 250 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: nine and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike Allen 251 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: spoke to us about the role of DNA could play 252 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:51,239 Speaker 1: in the case. 253 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 5: I can tell you from dealing with DNA evidence, both 254 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 5: as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, that's not 255 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 5: good news for the defense. If they've got almost three 256 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 5: thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would have been 257 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 5: sent to the lab and comes back, they've got to 258 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 5: have something. I mean, I would be shocked if they 259 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 5: didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at least one 260 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 5: of these defendants, probably more of them. That's bad news 261 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 5: for the defense. There's just no way of getting around it. 262 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 5: Because DNA evidence, if extracted properly and analyzed properly, it's 263 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 5: pretty much lights out if they did it correctly. So 264 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 5: I think that's problematic for the defense. 265 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 266 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 11: In addition, the report also lists and seventy crime scene photos, 267 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 11: cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and 268 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 11: their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the 269 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 11: recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the 270 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 11: pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago, 271 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 11: we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have. 272 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 11: So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making 273 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 11: to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison 274 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 11: on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of 275 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 11: the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an 276 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 11: argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead 277 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 11: detectives on the case testified that he and his team 278 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 11: have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides 279 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 11: with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including 280 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 11: a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun, 281 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 11: and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence 282 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 11: that shoe prints from the exact same shoes purchased at 283 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 11: Walmart by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, 284 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 11: you remember, James Manly, were found in dried blood at 285 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 11: two of the crime scenes. And get this, In fact, 286 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 11: receipts for those exact same shoes, they're a very specific 287 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 11: Walmart athletic shoe were found during a search of Wagner 288 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 11: property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand 289 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 11: recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner, who claimed there 290 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 11: really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and 291 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 11: Hannah Rodin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know 292 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 11: is just not true. 293 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: Right. So with all of this, the Wagners still continued 294 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: to declare their innocence. Is it really possible that they did, 295 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: in fact have nothing to do with it? Well, recently 296 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: one of the Wagner's lawyers made statements to the press 297 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: saying that a loose custody arrangement between Jake Wagner and 298 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: Hannah fur their daughter Sophia, was being formalized by another 299 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: attorney in Ohio at the time of the killings, but 300 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: due to the fact that Hannah was murdered, the agreement 301 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: was never formalized, so it's not permissible in court. I 302 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 3: spoke with Deray about her second cousin, Jake Wagner, to 303 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 3: see if we could get any more information on the 304 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodin. Do you know 305 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: anything about like they were trying to get custody of 306 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 3: Sophia before the murders. 307 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: I don't know anything about that. 308 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 3: Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah, because you hear 309 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: a lot of that. 310 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I never heard, you know, I talked to my 311 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: antalot that was never mentioned. 312 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 3: So do you think that that is fabricated as well? 313 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 2: If I'm hearing you right, I don't believe that it 314 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 2: has anything. 315 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 5: To do with it. 316 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 4: I don't believe there was a custody battle. I think 317 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 4: that's another made up lie. 318 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: What makes you say that because. 319 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 2: I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it, 320 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 2: but we don't know who, and we're for sure it 321 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: wasn't the Wagner family. 322 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 4: It's a tragedy, and most. 323 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: Of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking 324 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking. 325 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 2: We don't know. It's who knows. 326 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 4: It's a mystery. 327 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: We found it strange for a woman who covers her 328 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: family's case closely not to know anything about the custody 329 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: issues that other family relatives disclosed to us before. 330 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 11: Even stranger is something else that was presented at George 331 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 11: Wagner's most recent pre trial hearing. Again he's the eldest son. 332 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 11: Prosecutors pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah 333 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 11: Rodin to one of her friends. In this message, she's 334 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 11: discussing the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged 335 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 11: custody documents. The ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. 336 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 11: Now get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner 337 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 11: family computer seized during the investigation, and again allegedly the 338 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 11: Wagner's got it by hacking into Hannah Rodin's Facebook account. 339 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 11: The message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and 340 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 11: I quote, I won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen. 341 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 11: They'll have to kill me first end quote. 342 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: It does seem clear that the Wagners were sort of 343 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 3: obsessed with custody and control of Sophia, and in speaking 344 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 3: with people close to the family, this actually wasn't the 345 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: first time custody became an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabby, 346 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 3: was married to George Wagner for several years. The two 347 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 3: had a son together, but eventually split up. 348 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: According to Christina, following their divorce, the Wagner family tried 349 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: to force Tabby into handing over custody of their son. 350 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: This is Christina's recollection of events. She spoke to Jeff 351 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: about it. 352 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 8: Somehow or another angela like manipulated her with different papers 353 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 8: to sign and stuff, and they had Tabby finding over 354 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 8: the rights and custody to George. You know, they had 355 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 8: money for expensive lawyer. Tabby didn't, and so they had 356 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 8: custody plumb up until you know, they got caught and 357 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 8: stuff for the crimes. 358 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 3: Do you think that she was obsessed with having custody 359 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 3: of all of her grandkids? 360 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 4: Oh? 361 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 9: Yeah, definitely. 362 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 3: Why do you say that? 363 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 8: Tabby Like whenever she would try to reach out to George, like, hey, 364 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,400 Speaker 8: can I come visit my son, and Angela would get 365 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 8: on there and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. 366 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 8: Would tell Tabby like, oh, you might have gave birth 367 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 8: to him, but I'm his real mother because I take 368 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 8: care of him, and all these just nasty things. 369 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 1: And Christina told us that in the aftermath of Tabby 370 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: and George's custody battle, Hannah rode In contacted Tabby for 371 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 1: advice and how to deal with their own custody issues 372 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: with the Wagoners. 373 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 8: I knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of 374 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 8: Sophia because she went to her and my sister were 375 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 8: pretty close, and you know, Tabby straight up told her 376 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 8: like a if they present me with papers, do not 377 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 8: sign them. Give them to a lawyer first. 378 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 4: Let the lawyer read it. 379 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 8: Over and proceed from there, because they will try to 380 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 8: steal custody of Sophia, even if they're trying to act 381 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 8: like they're understated, and all of the swords. Do not 382 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 8: listen to them because they will scree you over. 383 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition 384 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin, 385 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when 386 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked Deray about 387 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims. 388 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 3: I want your side of this. People say that, like 389 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,239 Speaker 3: George had a custody situation where he tried to get 390 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 3: custody of his son Jake, maybe a similar situation. People 391 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 3: are saying that, like Angela was just obsessed with getting 392 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 3: the kids and wanted all the control of the children. 393 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 8: Yeah. 394 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 4: I don't believe that. I don't believe that. 395 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: I know she loved him, but I don't believe. 396 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 4: She was obsessed. 397 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: I think she was a normal grandmother and then she 398 00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 2: was an excellent role model. 399 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: While we don't know all the details of George Wagner 400 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 1: and Tabby's custody case. There is evidence that the Wagners 401 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: did deceive Hannah Rodin by trying to convince her to 402 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: sign fake custody documents. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. 403 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 11: It seems being locked up in prison hasn't even stopped 404 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 11: the Wagners for one second from trying to manipulate those 405 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 11: closest to them. As we discussed earlier in September of 406 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 11: twenty nineteen, Angela Wagner tried to discuss case strategy even 407 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 11: influenced testimony from prison. Prosecutors also claim that Angela Wagner 408 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 11: called her mother Rita Neukom she's the one that's accused 409 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 11: of forging those custody documents. She called her several times 410 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 11: and basically asked her not to testify against the family, 411 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 11: and also told her how to explain away the custody 412 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 11: documents that she's accused of forging. 413 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 3: As a punishment, a judge suspended Angela Wagner's in jail 414 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 3: phone and mail privileges. Mike Allen told us that this 415 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 3: is just another blow for the defense. 416 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 5: Any criminal defense attorney that is doing their job, and 417 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,680 Speaker 5: I'm sure every one of these criminal defense attorneys are 418 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 5: doing their job. They tell their client from day one, 419 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 5: do not, under any circumstances discuss the case on the phone, 420 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 5: because you can guarantee that the conversations are being taked. 421 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 5: Prosecutors can use those conversations if the person is talking 422 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 5: about strategy, makes some kind of admission, intimidates witnesses, the 423 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 5: recording doesn't lie, and that could end up to be 424 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 5: some pretty strong evidence against her at the end of 425 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 5: the day. 426 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: George Wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request 427 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: he made after five months in prison. He has to 428 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: be transferred from general population to solitary confinement. Usually, solitary 429 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: confinement is given to a prisoner who either is a 430 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: threat to other prisoners or who may be in danger 431 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: in the general population. My gallon told is that George 432 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: a different reason. 433 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 5: His stated reason was that you wanted to be able 434 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 5: to study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual 435 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,959 Speaker 5: when inmates ask for solitary a lot of times, although 436 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 5: they may not say it, they're asking for that because 437 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 5: they've been threatened, and you know, they want to make 438 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 5: sure that they're as safe as they can be in jail. 439 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 5: But when I read that, I kind of wondered, is 440 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,959 Speaker 5: that the real reason? I mean, you know, you just 441 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 5: have to wonder what the motivation is. 442 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: So how does all this evidence add up? How strong 443 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: is the state's case against Billy, Angela Jake and George Wagner. 444 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 5: Now I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be 445 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 5: a prosecutor, and as a criminal defense attorney, you know, 446 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 5: you never say never as far as you know your 447 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 5: chances in front of a jury. Having said that, the 448 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 5: evidence sure seems strong, and we don't know all the evidence. 449 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 5: All we know is what's public. So the old adage 450 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 5: that a prosecutor could die ham Sandwich is true. But 451 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 5: smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they 452 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 5: can win beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think Mike Dwine, 453 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 5: who was in the driver's seat in this thing, there's 454 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 5: no way he would have indicted this if he didn't 455 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 5: think he could prove it, or ultimately someone could prove it. 456 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: At the end of the day, let's stop here for 457 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. 458 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: We've been covering this case for over two years, and 459 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: in that time we've examined, not only the details of 460 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: the eight murders themselves, but the multiple theories that have 461 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection. 462 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: Discoveries the murder scenes are now advancing the theory the 463 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 2: killings could be related to a drug cartel. 464 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 12: The Rodents had a pretty sizeable crop of marijuana plants 465 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 12: on their property, so you know, there were indications that 466 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 12: they were involved in some drug deals, in drug trade 467 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 12: with marijuana. 468 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: We explored the rumors of small town revenge. 469 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 12: There had been reports of scuffles with other people in public. 470 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: In his message and he's talking about I'm going to 471 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 2: break his fucking legs and curb stop his ass. 472 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 1: We also investigated a series of eerily similar killings. 473 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 10: We have had a double homicide, four children left alive. 474 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 4: This is very similar to the Rodent case. 475 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 10: And we had heard that there were other people who 476 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 10: were shot Noel the night execution style in their homes. 477 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,479 Speaker 10: And when you're looking at the Rodent case and then 478 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 10: you see these other cases in a county that small, 479 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 10: you start asking yourself. 480 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 4: What the hell is going on. 481 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 10: It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless 482 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 10: there is some sort of common denominator. 483 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: But in the end, it was some of the people 484 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: who were closest to the Rodents that were arrested for 485 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: orchestrating the brutal, cold blooded massacre. 486 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,679 Speaker 13: At the center of this case were members of the 487 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 13: Wagner family, whom we believe the event will show conspired 488 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 13: together to kill these eight. 489 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: As we struggled to make sense of the crimes, we've 490 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: listened to the impassioned arguments of family members who insist 491 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 1: that their relatives are innocent. 492 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: Our family joke because there's no way that Betty Crocker 493 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: and the Dobe boys could ever go to an extreme 494 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 2: of murder. 495 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 4: Somebody did it, but it wasn't. 496 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: Now we've heard first person accounts from relatives that support 497 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: the primary motive in this case. 498 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 7: Hannah and Jake with the little girl. There was a 499 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 7: company battle and Hannah wasn't allowing Jake to see her, 500 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 7: and it just set him off to the point where 501 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 7: Jake he had made the comments you know that he 502 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 7: were going to kill her. 503 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: But there are some who are simply torn. 504 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 9: When the Wagoners were arrested, you had your fifty to fifty. 505 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 7: You had people that said, yes, I knew that they 506 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 7: did and then you've got people that day. 507 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 5: There's no way those people did that. 508 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 14: I don't think anybody would believe that, you know, a 509 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 14: family could have put together such a tactical hit on 510 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 14: another family that they had created life with. 511 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 4: It's still too difficult to accept and too hard to believe. 512 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: Many in the piked In area believe there is no 513 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: doubt that the Wagners plotted this horrific killing. 514 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 10: Spray people wanted to paint the sort of few between 515 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 10: the Rodents and Wagners and something like the hatfields of McCoys. 516 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 8: Doesn't make sense to me if they are innocent, because 517 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 8: who else would do that. 518 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: Whether the Wagners are innocent or guilty, doesn't change the 519 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: fact that the lives of eight members of a revered 520 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: local family, the Rodents, were taken on April twenty second, 521 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Dana Roden, thirty seven year old mother, grandmother 522 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: and nurse living in her brand new home. Chris Rodin, 523 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: forty year old, loving father and grandfather. Dana and Chris's 524 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: oldest son, twenty year old Frankie Rodin. Frankie's fiance, twenty 525 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: year old Hannah Gilly, who was in bed with their 526 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: six month old baby, Frankie Roden's three year old son, 527 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: both of whom were spared. Hannahme Roden, nineteen year old 528 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: mother to two year old Sophia, and her five day 529 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: old newborn Kylie, also spared. Dana and Chris's youngest child, 530 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: sixteen year old Chris Junior, who had just gotten his 531 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: driver's license, Chris Senior's older brother, forty four year old 532 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: Kenneth Roden, father of three, and his cousin, thirty eight 533 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: year old Gary Roden, who was staying with Chris Senior 534 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: that night. 535 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 9: It is horrible to this day in Dana and her 536 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 9: her family will never never get to celebrate birthdays, you know, 537 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 9: and have parties and get together some barbecues and stuff 538 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 9: like that. 539 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: It's terrible. 540 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 9: It just really hurts my heart. 541 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: In all this, it's sometimes easy to forget those whose 542 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: lives were spared that faithful night, but who lost everything 543 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: in the process, the Rodent children. 544 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 3: It's two families really have been destroyed. And at the 545 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 3: center of that tragedy is, you know, are these kids 546 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 3: whose families are torn apart and lost. 547 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 15: Sophia is the one that is losing the most at 548 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 15: this point in her life because She's lost her mom's 549 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 15: side of the family, she's lost her father's side of 550 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 15: the family, and she is in child protective custody where 551 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 15: no one knows where she is. 552 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 4: She has lost on both sides. She's lost both of 553 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 4: her families. 554 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: Because it's supposed to be happy for her, this is 555 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: her childhood. 556 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: The tragic legacy of the Rodent murders continues to loom 557 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: over the town of Pyton, Ohio. 558 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 10: You know, whatever happened that morning on Union Hill Road, 559 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 10: you know it impacted a lot more than just those 560 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 10: eight people who were killed. I mean, you've got their 561 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 10: family members, and you've got people in that area are 562 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 10: going to remember this forever. 563 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 4: This has never gone away. 564 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 7: My family was a part of this horrible, I mean 565 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 7: just absolutely awful act. You know that they destroyed this 566 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 7: other family completely. They have changed his family's life for 567 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 7: the rest of their life. So but then you know, 568 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 7: I'm like, well, you know ours has changed as well. 569 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 7: You know, we get tortured daily with the thought of 570 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 7: how our family could have done something like this, and 571 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 7: we still have love for them. I do feel so 572 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 7: terrible for the Romans, and I've always wanted to be 573 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 7: able to express how sorry, I am, And just because 574 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 7: we still love Angela and Jake doesn't mean that we 575 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 7: aren't sorry for what's take one, I guess. 576 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: With trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, and George Wagner potentially 577 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: just months away, the residents of the Pikeson area sit 578 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 1: in anticipation, awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter 579 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: in the town's history and a conclusion to Ohio's most 580 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: notorious murder case. 581 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 5: I've been in the system for over fifty years, and 582 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 5: that is extremely rare that you got for people, for 583 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 5: defendants facing the death penalty. 584 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: What will happen is anyone's guests if. 585 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,959 Speaker 10: They walk out of that courtroom without any convictions. I 586 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 10: just can't imagine how the rodents go on in the 587 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 10: public too. I mean, how do you go on not 588 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 10: knowing for sure exactly who did this? 589 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: Oh, it's going to be broken hearted, It's going to 590 00:33:54,720 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: be broken hearts. I honestly think that that's the Wagoners. 591 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 4: It's going to a mistrial. 592 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,240 Speaker 5: It's a search for the truth and that old proverb 593 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 5: from Shakespeare the truth will out in the end. I 594 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 5: believe that as it applies to this case, the mystery 595 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 5: will be solved the truth will eventually and inevitably be discovered, 596 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 5: and it looks like that's the way they're heading. I, 597 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 5: like everybody else, want to know. 598 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 4: I want to know how the story is. 599 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: Reach out to us on our social media outlets with questions. 600 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at pikedon Massacre. We 601 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: look forward to answering our questions and upcoming episodes. Pipedon 602 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 1: Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Leidecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 603 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 604 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shaine and Andrew Becker. The piked In 605 00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KAT Studios. For 606 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 607 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.