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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A beautiful girl gunned down

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Speaker 1: was split second precision by a drive by sheeter. It's

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Speaker 1: almost too much too believe, and that's not what the

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Speaker 1: family of Caitlin Arquette believes. We are live at Crime

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Speaker 1: con with the latest and what is called a cold case.

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Speaker 1: Nobody believes the story that was given to cops that

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Speaker 1: somehow coincidentally two cars drive it at a rapid speed

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Speaker 1: and one driver managed to get off a hit that

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Speaker 1: executes a female driver. Nothing fits together. I gotta tell

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Speaker 1: you this is one of the most difficult types of

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Speaker 1: cases to solve. A drive by sheet. The evidence is gone,

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Speaker 1: just like that. Maybe somebody saw what happened, maybe they didn't.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's a camera, maybe there's not. Very often drive

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Speaker 1: bys are strategically engineered so there are not witnesses. But

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Speaker 1: right now I want you to find out about the

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Speaker 1: victim in this case and why the case remains unsolved.

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Speaker 1: I'm a very very special group with me and I'll

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Speaker 1: introduce him as they speak, but first to you. E

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Speaker 1: k Ellen colorin Crime online dot Com investigative reporter in

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Speaker 1: a Nutshell. Kit Lenard Kat was eighteen years old on

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Speaker 1: July sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine. She had recently graduated from

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Speaker 1: high school. She was an honor student with a great

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Speaker 1: future ahead of her, going to college Ion medical school.

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Speaker 1: That night, she had gone to visit a friend at

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Speaker 1: her home, and on her way back from there, she

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Speaker 1: was shot. While she was driving. Her car careened over

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Speaker 1: a median and came to a pause on a sidewalk.

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Speaker 1: She had two bullet holes another a third bullet hole

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Speaker 1: in the in the car. She lived for twenty hours

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Speaker 1: with her family. When you say two bullet holes, she

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Speaker 1: had two. She was shot twice. She had two gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 1: But there is also a third bullet hole in the car.

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Speaker 1: Which is very interesting to me that in moving traffic

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Speaker 1: somebody could peel off three rounds at least and hit

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Speaker 1: the target. And when I say target, I mean inside

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Speaker 1: the car. That's some pretty sharpshooting in moving traffic. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is the overview. Joining me also, Cheryl McCallum, you

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Speaker 1: know her very well. Not only she's the director of

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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute. She and I met in

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Speaker 1: the trenches over twenty years ago, fighting crime. With your

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Speaker 1: view of cold case reconstruction, tell me with the important

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Speaker 1: facts evidentiary facts. What you think of the case, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: If this was our case and I was talking to

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Speaker 1: you in your office, the first thing that sticks out

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Speaker 1: for me is there's two gunshot wounds in the victim's head,

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Speaker 1: one by the temple and one right here at her cheek.

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Speaker 1: And Detective Anita and I have talked about this before,

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Speaker 1: but I know cops that standing still shooting at a

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Speaker 1: target that's not moving could not do that. So you're

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Speaker 1: talking about Kate's car is moving, the perpetrator's car is

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Speaker 1: allegedly moving. That is unbelievable shooting, if at all possible,

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Speaker 1: and if nothing know it happened in moving traffic. We

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Speaker 1: have witnesses. But here's the thing again, y'all know about

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Speaker 1: our witnesses, that's a whole nother session. Maybe they saw

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Speaker 1: it in that time, maybe it was delayed what they saw.

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Speaker 1: But the reality of what I'm trying to tell you is,

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Speaker 1: if nothing else we know, there was at least two

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Speaker 1: people in that car. One had to be driving and

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Speaker 1: one had to be shooting. It had to be had

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Speaker 1: to be at least two people, and not necessarily both

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Speaker 1: in the front seat, not necessarily at all. So to me,

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Speaker 1: that would stand out. But here, here's the thing. It's

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Speaker 1: hard enough to hit a bull's eye without anything moving. Okay,

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Speaker 1: don't keep guns in our house, but I've been to many,

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Speaker 1: many firing ranges as a prosecutor. We had to. It's

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Speaker 1: hard enough to shoot a bulls eye at a distance

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Speaker 1: when nothing's moving, much less when you're moving and they're moving.

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Speaker 1: And I assume that you believe, Cheryl, that the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: was in fight in a moving vehicle at the time

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Speaker 1: of the shooting. Doesn't have to be. It doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to be, but possibly one one shot. But again, the placement,

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Speaker 1: the placement to me is almost impossible, Nancy to do

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Speaker 1: while moving, because again, have you ever thought and I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying this was a sniper, but have you ever

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Speaker 1: thought that the part was not in a car? Oh? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: And that's why I'm well, I'm getting there. But again,

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Speaker 1: there's witnesses the car. She was being chased. Witnesses said

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Speaker 1: that we know that, so she's trying to get away.

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Speaker 1: So not only are they trying to shoot at her,

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Speaker 1: they're having to navigate the same traffic while catching up

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Speaker 1: to her and getting alongside of her because the trajectory shout,

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Speaker 1: and Cheryl, why don't you say somebody else thinks she

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Speaker 1: was being chased? How do we know she was really

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Speaker 1: being chased? How do we know it wasn't just a

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Speaker 1: car speeding up and it was perceived as being chased. Well,

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Speaker 1: there were witnesses on scene, one of them a perpetrator

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Speaker 1: in his own right, a felon, a convicted felon in

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Speaker 1: his own right, he's one of our witnesses. Another witness

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Speaker 1: is a police officer that later on was arrested for

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Speaker 1: Robin Banks. So again, this case gets convoluted very very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where what the witnesses say.

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Speaker 1: Did they say they saw the shooter or sheet out

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Speaker 1: of the v They said that Caitlin was being chased.

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Speaker 1: There were three shots and then she crashed her car.

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Speaker 1: And what did the other car do? Pulled into a

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Speaker 1: vacant lot, turned its lights off, stay there a moment,

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Speaker 1: and then left going west on Loomis. And what was

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Speaker 1: the description of the vehicle vw Z. You don't normally

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Speaker 1: think of that VW as being to get away a

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Speaker 1: v W a bug, a VW bug. Nobody would pick

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Speaker 1: a bug that had to be their car would see

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Speaker 1: would not pick a bug right to be your getaway

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Speaker 1: and the witness that was also the convicted felon had

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Speaker 1: access to a vehicle just like that. Oh do you

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Speaker 1: take their suspects? Is that what you're saying? Absolutely, anytime

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Speaker 1: you have a known criminal at an active, hot, violent thing,

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Speaker 1: he would become number one for me. And if I

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Speaker 1: was the crime scene investigator on that case, I would

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Speaker 1: immediately tell my lead detective, Hey, I know that guy.

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Speaker 1: That guy's hot, he's you know, got a record, and

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Speaker 1: I will let Detective Menina tell you what she'd do

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Speaker 1: with him. But I can already tell you what she'd do.

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Speaker 1: He'd be halfway to the station, Am I right, Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: It wouldn't be pretty joining me. In addition to Ashley Wilcott,

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Speaker 1: E K Klaurin, Cheryl mccaullaugh special guest with Me, Carrie Arquette,

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Speaker 1: this is Caitlin's sister. And also you've been informally introduced

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Speaker 1: to Christine Menina Indianapolis Police Department. You can also find

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Speaker 1: her at the Menina files dot com. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us your recollection of the day of the shooting? So

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Speaker 1: Kate was the baby in the family. Out of five children,

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Speaker 1: I was second to the oldest. I was actually living

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Speaker 1: in Dallas, Texas. I had two young children. And the

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Speaker 1: phone rang in the middle of the night and my

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Speaker 1: husband grabbed it and I saw him just pause and nod,

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Speaker 1: and then he handed it to me, and I guess

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Speaker 1: my mother had said, I've got very bad news. You

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Speaker 1: need to be there for Carrie. So my mother said,

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Speaker 1: Kate's been shot. And all I could think see Kate

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Speaker 1: was like the neighborhood babysitter. She would be the person

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Speaker 1: that people took on vacation with them to take care

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Speaker 1: of their kids so that the parents could go frolic.

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Speaker 1: And all I could think was one of those kids

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Speaker 1: got their parents gun and Kate trying to take it

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Speaker 1: away from them, and somehow it went off because people

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Speaker 1: like us don't get shot, right, I mean, we had

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Speaker 1: never known anybody who had gotten shot. My mother was

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Speaker 1: a very very successful author. My father was an electrical

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Speaker 1: engineer at Sandy Laboratories. We were on speech teams in

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Speaker 1: volleyball on tell them some of the books. So when

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Speaker 1: I say my mother's a successful author, her name is

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Speaker 1: Lois duncan Oh, I see people going ah, so She

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Speaker 1: was known as the matriarch of young adult novels. She

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Speaker 1: wrote I Know what You Did last Summer? Recently in

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Speaker 1: the theaters down at Dark Hall. She wrote A Hotel

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Speaker 1: for Dogs. She wrote probably fifty five books before she

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Speaker 1: died three years ago. That's a lot. It is a lot.

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Speaker 1: And she was an exceptional woman. And she said that

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Speaker 1: she would never ever die before getting justice for Kate.

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Speaker 1: And she actually it was a kind of an interesting evolution.

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Speaker 1: I'll go back to Kate in a minute, but now

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Speaker 1: you've thrown it to me about Mother, it makes me

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Speaker 1: connect to it even more. Yeah, you know us on

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Speaker 1: the outside looking in, we feel like we know her,

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Speaker 1: we know you because of all of her books now movies.

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Speaker 1: And when Cheryl first told me about this case, I

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Speaker 1: have never heard of it. And she said, you know

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Speaker 1: about Hotel for Dogs? Like yeah, because well that that's

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Speaker 1: the Mom. I'm like, what. And it makes me feel

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Speaker 1: like I know them, which of course I don't, But

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Speaker 1: it gives people a connection to you and to her,

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Speaker 1: so I wanted them to know about it. So Mother

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Speaker 1: was this little, tiny, introverted writer. She lived a lot

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Speaker 1: of the time in her head. But after Kate was murdered.

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Speaker 1: She became this roaring lioness who did everything she could

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out what had happened to Kate.

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Speaker 1: And I think in some ways I wonder whether or

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Speaker 1: not the noise that she made ticked off people in

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Speaker 1: authority to the point that they were just angry and

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Speaker 1: they didn't want to help us anymore crime stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace anyway, Kate, it's not always anger. It's not

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Speaker 1: always anger because I would get calls when I first

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Speaker 1: went to the DA's office, and I'd pick up the

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Speaker 1: phone and go, Hello, Polton County District Attorney's Office, this

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Speaker 1: is Nancy Grays. Can I help you. By the end

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Speaker 1: of ten years, I just go DA. I'm so tired.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of times when people were calling me

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Speaker 1: asked about a case that I didn't know the answer

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Speaker 1: to that, I'm completely overwhelmed and I haven't been able

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Speaker 1: to get or find out or do whatever they call

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Speaker 1: me the last ten times wanting me to do. And

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Speaker 1: so it's not always anger. It's almost guilt because you

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Speaker 1: can't get to it all and you want to give

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Speaker 1: people answers, and you don't always have answers. And then

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Speaker 1: there is the irritation factor. I haven't done it yet,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna say that I may not do

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Speaker 1: it when they oh, it's so and so again. I've

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Speaker 1: heard other prosecutors say that mother was the again. So

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Speaker 1: I got on an airplane the next day and I

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Speaker 1: flew from Dallas to Albuquerque. Kate was in a coma

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Speaker 1: at the hospital. I wish, if you're going to be

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Speaker 1: in a coma, is a good place to be. And

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Speaker 1: she stayed in that coma for about twenty hours as

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Speaker 1: different family members arrived from different states where they lived

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Speaker 1: and where Kate's boyfriend actually hung out with the family

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Speaker 1: for quite a few hours. And I'm mentioning the boyfriend

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Speaker 1: at this point because he's going to come back into

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Speaker 1: the story. He was Kate's first significant boyfriend. They were

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Speaker 1: living together at this point, and he was involved in

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Speaker 1: criminal activity. And when Kate, when you talk about Kate,

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Speaker 1: when I talk about Kate, you know, I want to

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Speaker 1: make her sound like she walks on water and that

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Speaker 1: she's this beautiful, innocent teenager. But the truth of the

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Speaker 1: matter is she was a teenager. So here she is

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Speaker 1: at eighteen, living with her boyfriend, and she knows that

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Speaker 1: he's involved in some of these activities. What activities what

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Speaker 1: we know he and his friends were involved in were

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Speaker 1: out of state insurance fraud scans where the Asian community

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Speaker 1: members would rent a car and then they would crash

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Speaker 1: into a car of other Asians and they would go

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Speaker 1: to a doctor who was Asian and be represented by

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Speaker 1: Asian lawyers and they would all claim soft tissue injuries. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that is not new, nor is it explosive to one group,

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Speaker 1: as she's saying Asians. Somebody ran into me when I

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Speaker 1: was a DA and I was fine. I went straight

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Speaker 1: to court. I got home that night and somebody had

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Speaker 1: an unlisted number call me, a runner, call me on

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Speaker 1: the phone, asking to represent me. I'm like, I'm a prosecutor,

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Speaker 1: I've got caller ID, and you just broke the law. Clicks.

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Speaker 1: It's a scam. A lot of lawyers do it, a

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Speaker 1: lot of doctors do it, and they get insurance money

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Speaker 1: through fake injuries soft tissue. It's like, oh, my neck hurts,

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Speaker 1: and there's no way to really prove it or disprove it.

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Speaker 1: I suppose she's talking about we were told that this

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Speaker 1: was the Asia, and I'm saying Asian because it was

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Speaker 1: the Vietnamese mafia, and within minutes of Kate being declared

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Speaker 1: brain dead, a phone call went out from her apartment

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Speaker 1: where nobody was supposed to be, to the copper of

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Speaker 1: the Vietnamese mafia in California. Obviously we believe, saying Okay,

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Speaker 1: she's dead. That was within two or three minutes of

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Speaker 1: her being taken off life support. Detective Menina, I'm coming

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Speaker 1: right to you, but share that's very probative in my

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Speaker 1: mind what she just said. That is a lot of

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Speaker 1: money on the line, and I'm speculating, but that's how

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Speaker 1: investigations work. You all sit down, if you have anybody

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Speaker 1: to talk to you and you go, what about this?

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Speaker 1: What about that? I mean, if that's true and I

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Speaker 1: have no reason to disbelieve it, that's a lot of

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Speaker 1: money we're talking about. What if she had ever said,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this isn't right, I'm telling or I

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Speaker 1: want out of this. What if I can tell you.

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Speaker 1: Lois Duncan absolutely believed that Kate knew and in some

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Speaker 1: way said either she was going to tell or that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't right, or they needed to stop doing it

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Speaker 1: because there were other scams they were running. They were

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Speaker 1: running college loan scams. I mean hundreds of thousands of

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Speaker 1: dollars are talking about, So Kate had a lot of

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Speaker 1: information that would not have fared well to Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I'm saying what Kate knew for a fact

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Speaker 1: was hundreds of thousands of dollars. There are several things,

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Speaker 1: and fortunately, I've been a police officer for twenty five

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Speaker 1: years and I have to say that the police screwed

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Speaker 1: this up from the very beginning. So really they are

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Speaker 1: the ones that made this case complicated. With that being said,

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Speaker 1: there's just some things that one on one detective work

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Speaker 1: that wasn't done very early on. When Kate went to

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Speaker 1: her parents' house before she went to a friend's house

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Speaker 1: before she was murdered, and in that brief conversation, she

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Speaker 1: was talking with her mother about arguments and she was upset.

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Speaker 1: Mom had seen her and said, you'd been crying, and

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Speaker 1: she made a comment that said, you know what, all

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Speaker 1: she said, did you have another fight with your boyfriend?

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Speaker 1: She said, well, not a new one, the one from

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Speaker 1: yesterday or whatever. I'll tell you about it later. So

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Speaker 1: what that tells me is she was getting close to

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Speaker 1: communicating with her family about what maybe she knew, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think this is complicated. I've been a homicided

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Speaker 1: for ten years. I've solved all but two murders, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not that smart. They're not that complicated. Okay, you

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Speaker 1: got you got to keep things simple, I think at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, in my opinion, And I've

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Speaker 1: dove into this for three weeks. And when I mean dove,

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Speaker 1: I haven't slept because I've started to read it and

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Speaker 1: it makes me crazy. It's probably his sickness. But there's

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Speaker 1: a few things. She was arguing with him. She wanted

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Speaker 1: him to move out, and we all know that. Are

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Speaker 1: you sure she wanted him to That's that's from the book.

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Speaker 1: That's from Lois's mouth. She had the locks changed. The

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Speaker 1: locks changed, there's uh the landlord has Okay, sorry, when

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Speaker 1: you're changing the locks, that's big. So there's a few things.

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Speaker 1: That night, Mom picked up on it, and then Kate said,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you about it, maybe even tonight. Okay. The

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Speaker 1: boyfriend gets to the hospital and I can't even believe

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Speaker 1: that he was allowed to go to the hospital when

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Speaker 1: they told him. I would have yanked his ass and

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Speaker 1: thrown him down into the homicide office. I'll get to

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Speaker 1: you when I get to you. Number one suspect, Number

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Speaker 1: one suspect. Secondly, he gets to go to the hospital.

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Speaker 1: And if they were any good police officers at all,

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Speaker 1: if they're gonna let you go to the hospital, I'm

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Speaker 1: right on your ass. I'm going with you, okay, Because

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Speaker 1: he says, this is all my fault at the hospital.

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Speaker 1: So now we've got Mom who's concerned, Kate who says,

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Speaker 1: i'll tell you about it later. We've got a boyfriend

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Speaker 1: that says this is all my fault, and you have

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Speaker 1: a bunch of ignorant police officers and detectives that don't

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Speaker 1: look at this stuff. They don't interview him for a while,

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Speaker 1: they don't interview the family. Yeah, there's some complicated things

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Speaker 1: to this case. The Vietnamese were probably involved. Her boyfriend

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Speaker 1: didn't pull the trigger, but he might as well. Love

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Speaker 1: and that stuff wasn't looked into. So it's really disturbing

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Speaker 1: and upset for me to stand up here and say

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Speaker 1: that the police department failed this family, absolutely failed his family.

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Speaker 1: And I'm a cop lover, you know, I believe in

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Speaker 1: the thin blue line until it's bent, and then I

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00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 1: have an issue with it. Yep. So getting the word

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Speaker 1: out this case isn't complicated. If I were on this case,

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Speaker 1: I would grab my French Harold here, I'd grab Nancy

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Speaker 1: and I'd say let's go to California and get the boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: And he doesn't leave my interview until he tells me

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Speaker 1: what the hell happens. One other important thing in a

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Speaker 1: conversation that Mom had a couple days after when he

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Speaker 1: was really upset because he calls Mom and says, hey,

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Speaker 1: can you call the landlord? I can't get into the apartment. Well. Sure.

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Speaker 1: At this point Mom still likes him and is still

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Speaker 1: feeling him. The sisters are having some issues. Okay, they

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Speaker 1: are not really excited about this guy. He calls the

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Speaker 1: landlord and says, hey, or it calls Mom and says,

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Speaker 1: can you call the landlord. I can't get into the apartment.

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Speaker 1: I want to get my stuff. I want to go

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Speaker 1: to sleep. Sure calls the landlord and says, oh, hell no.

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Speaker 1: I loved your daughter, liked her a lot. My wife

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Speaker 1: liked her, but I didn't like him, and I definitely

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Speaker 1: didn't like his cronies. That's what I call in a

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Speaker 1: basic one oh one, a clue, Right, this isn't hard.

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Speaker 1: This isn't hard, people. But what this is its effort.

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Speaker 1: It's it's talking to everybody, anybody, and the guy at

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Speaker 1: the scene, what right they got his name? He's a

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Speaker 1: he's a felon. Even if you're not a felon. If

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Speaker 1: you're at my crime scene, sorry about your luck. Your

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Speaker 1: night's over with. Taking you down to the homicide office.

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Speaker 1: We're talking. I'll get your coffee, I'll let you pee,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna be together for a while. They got

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Speaker 1: his name and a false number. What and they let

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Speaker 1: him go so we could sit up here and talk

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Speaker 1: about thuries The police department screwed this up. Okay, let

336
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Speaker 1: me jump in and let y'all know just how bad

337
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: so at a crime scene when you have a dead body,

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Speaker 1: that dead body belongs to the medical examiner. That car

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Speaker 1: belongs to me. Now, Detective A. Nina, I'll already know

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Speaker 1: her highest solve rate in the United States as a

341
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Speaker 1: homicide detective if she was my lead detective. That car

342
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Speaker 1: belongs to me. Clear, I'm gonna tell her what I've got.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell her what I found. Then she can

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Speaker 1: go back over it with me. That's how we would

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Speaker 1: work this. That car of Kate's. In the report from

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Speaker 1: the criminalis said no fingerprints found on the car. What

347
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Speaker 1: so what Kate got shot twice in the head and

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Speaker 1: wiped her on prints off the car. It's not possible

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Speaker 1: that her prints weren't on the car. Now, they could

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00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: have meant no workable prints, no prints that didn't come

351
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Speaker 1: back to the victim, but that's not what they wrote down.

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Speaker 1: So I have an issue with that too. So while

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Speaker 1: I'm doing so, then your theory is they either didn't

354
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Speaker 1: do their job or the car was wiped down, correct,

355
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Speaker 1: So which one is it? Well, that's where we are.

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Speaker 1: But at the point that I would be in that vehicle,

357
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Speaker 1: couldn't find a workable print or a good print, detective

358
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Speaker 1: A Nina would be going to the judge to get

359
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Speaker 1: a search warrant for her home to keep that car

360
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: put a hold on that car. And I'll let the

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Speaker 1: judge jump in at this point. But I just know

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Speaker 1: that whole world would have stopped turning until we were

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Speaker 1: done with it. And how do you have something off

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Speaker 1: like that, Ashley? You do the subpoenis, You ask for

365
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Speaker 1: the subpoenas, and I, as a judge, would sign them absolutely,

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Speaker 1: if you have any probable cause to say to me,

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Speaker 1: this is why we think there's evidence here. What this

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Speaker 1: is evidence is I'm going to sign them. I get

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Speaker 1: warrants in front of me all the time, all day long.

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Speaker 1: I say, okay, detective, raise your right hand. Do you

371
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Speaker 1: swear for him to tell the truth? Holding not much

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Speaker 1: as oh my god, yes, all right, let's go tell

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Speaker 1: me what you're putting this warrant and why, and I

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Speaker 1: make sure there's probable cause, and if I am, I

375
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Speaker 1: sign off. And I do it all the time for

376
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 1: this reason, because you need to collect that evidence. Again,

377
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: a search warrant, it's not beyond a reasonable doubt. It's

378
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 1: just what the affiant, the one swearing, knows, and it

379
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: can be hearsay, it can be anything that leaves needs

380
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: them to believe. They need to search a location, a car,

381
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: a locker, a person, get fingerprints, whatever they need. It's

382
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,719
Speaker 1: just probable cause. That's all you need, is a very

383
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: low threshold and would have been very easy to get.

384
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Speaker 1: And that's your station. You can't even get one on

385
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Speaker 1: the phone. Yeah, and let me just add, if I

386
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Speaker 1: had these ladies as my witnesses and a court case

387
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 1: in front of me. It would be a great day, right,

388
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 1: this is so unusual, Honestly, Detective, I'm just going to

389
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: say this to have someone who's this transparent to say,

390
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 1: this is what we found, This is what the evidence is,

391
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: this is what was messed up. This. For a judge

392
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: to hear this evidence or a jury to hear this

393
00:24:39,720 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: evidence would be key crime stories. With Nancy Grace back

394
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 1: to carry our kid. I want to go back to

395
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: what happened in the hospital because it's not always admissible

396
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 1: in court, but I like to know. I like to

397
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: know where everybody was standing. In other words, what was

398
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: the boyfriend doing, what was his demeanor, how did he

399
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: interact with other people? Who else came to the hospital,

400
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: what happened in the hours following her being pronounced dead

401
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: and the hours leading up to that. I want to

402
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: hear about everybody's demeanor at the hospital, and then what

403
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: happened with her apartment. Yeah, my memories about what happened

404
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: in the hospital. When I think back on it, it

405
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: feels flat to me. My family isn't a family of

406
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: big criers, very little histrionics. When I walked in, my

407
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: mother was sitting by my sister and I had never

408
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: I had never seen somebody in that situation before. And

409
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: I remember my mother saying, touch her, she's warm, and

410
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: somehow reaching out and holding my sister's hand. It reminded

411
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: me of past Christmas and birthdays and it tied us

412
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: all together in a very tight knot of love. Why

413
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 1: did she say that, touch her, she's warm. I don't know.

414
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: I think she. I think she needed me to. She

415
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: knew how frightened I was, and I think she needed

416
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: me to connect with Kate, not a body, and that

417
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: was her way of doing it. And then when my

418
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 1: first child was born, Aaron, one of my other sisters,

419
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: Robin and mother created an entire, an entire record or

420
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: tape of lullabies and it was called Songs from Dreamland.

421
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: And Mother wrote all the lyrics and Robin wrote all

422
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: the music and sang it. And I put on Songs

423
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 1: of Dreamland and I figured that my sister's beautiful voice,

424
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: in my mother's words, could sing Kate to sleep for

425
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: the last time I was there for a while other

426
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: siblings arrived. In these situations, you know, nobody knows what

427
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: to do. You don't know whether you're supposed to sit

428
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: by the bed or are you supposed to not talk?

429
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: Can you talk? Should you go get that cup of coffee?

430
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 1: We just we have no clue how this works, And

431
00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 1: so we stood around, just numb, not knowing what the

432
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: next step was going to be. And at points yune

433
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: the boyfriend came and went, and nobody wanted him there,

434
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: but nobody knew how to tell him not to be

435
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: there because he didn't. They want him there because it

436
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: seemed like such an intimate experience to see, to witness

437
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: Kate's last hours, and while he had been part of

438
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: a family thanksgivings and such for a year or two,

439
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: none of us really knew him, and we knew that

440
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: he was having problems with Kate, and if she didn't

441
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: want him there there being in her life or in

442
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: their apartment, the idea of having him there at the

443
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: time that she was taking her last breaths seemed like

444
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: it dirtied. The situation just feels wrong. It feels wrong.

445
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: But there he sits, with his back up against the

446
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: wall in the hospital corridor, weeping. By the way, none

447
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: of the rest of the family is weeping. We're all

448
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 1: being stoic, but he's sitting there with his knees up

449
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: to his chin weeping. We're all ignoring him. Did you

450
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: know at that time she had changed the locks? I

451
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: didn't know that, But you have to remember that I

452
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: was a you know, a young mother, completely overwhelmed with

453
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: two children and living in another state, you know, far away.

454
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: I don't think. In fact, I'm quite sure that mother

455
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: didn't know and daddy didn't know, because Kate was treating

456
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: this all like a teenager treats things. I mean, if

457
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: you tell your parents that your boyfriend is being awful

458
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: to you, then when the boyfriend's not being awful to you, well,

459
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: parents are like elephants. They never forget right. You may

460
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: decide that you want to go back to that boyfriend,

461
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: but your parents would always hold it against the boyfriend

462
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: that he was hurting me. Oh, I'm still mad at

463
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: Lucy's bully from the first grade. I see her every

464
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: day the parking lot pick. I'm m h still mad

465
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: about it. Yep. So I think that Kate was um.

466
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: Kate was very intentionally not telling the family a lot, Detective.

467
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: I I just see her from so down writhing. Okay. Well,

468
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: and another thing, guys, is this and she just told

469
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: me this morning but I assumed this based on the books,

470
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: is that the police or the detectives never spoke with

471
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: the family. What yeah, what like? And I told her,

472
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: I said, if I were at the scene that night,

473
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, and I and I try to be um compassionate.

474
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm the detective on this, which means, here's my cell number, right,

475
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: call me if you need me. I know the next

476
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: couple days are going to be difficult. I need to

477
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: speak with you as soon as possible. I'll contact you

478
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: after the funeral, but if you need me before, call me.

479
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: The family was never ever interviewed. The people that are

480
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 1: the closest to you have the answers, right. The sisters

481
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: knew a little bit that she was into some stuff

482
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: a little bit. There was a little bit of a

483
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: feeling of it. That's information that I need to know.

484
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: That's that's that's a clue. Right, So you go to

485
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: the closest people, the boyfriend, I would still be talking

486
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: to him now. I want to go talk to him now,

487
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: he's gon how fourney he wants to go? Right? You know,

488
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: it's another interesting thing. Anybody on this jump in. You

489
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: take social cues and if the rest of the family

490
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: is standing there being stoic. Yeah, why would you be

491
00:31:55,000 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: in a ball out in the hall crying because okay, ladies,

492
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: I know, let me just say it. A man, why

493
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: is he out there crying in a ball and with

494
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: the mother and the sisters trying to be strong. I mean,

495
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: the whole picture is just there's something really wrong. What's

496
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: happening now? Akay? Where does it stand? Now? Oh? Hold on,

497
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: hold on, wait wait, I just wanted to um, yeah,

498
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: we are kind of a female dominant family. But you

499
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: said the mother and the sisters, and I want to

500
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: make it clear that my daddy was involved. He is

501
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: a part of this puzzle. He's the quiet one with

502
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: mother being so um well known, and he is an engineer,

503
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: kind of a personality reticent. But he was there and

504
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: two brothers as well, so we we just Yeah, I'd

505
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: kind of like to stereotypical because I'd think if anyone

506
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: it would probably be one of the younger sisters that

507
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: would break down and start crying, not the dad. Um.

508
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is why is he behaving that

509
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: way when no one else is. It just doesn't prove anything, no,

510
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: but I noticed it. It's a note in my head. Um,

511
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 1: what what is happening now, Cheryl? Where where can we

512
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: go from here? Well, it's been about thirty years and

513
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: it's right where it was. Basically, Um, I was able

514
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: to go to the spin on that to make a

515
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: sound a little bit better. I absolutely cannot make it

516
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 1: sound any better. I'm gonna be really honest with you.

517
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: I don't want it to sound any better. I want

518
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: everybody to leave here just as frustrated as Lois and

519
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: Carry and the rest of the family. I mean, I've

520
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: met with her brothers, Cheryl, I don't understand here. Let

521
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: me tell you some things we were told, because y'all

522
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 1: are gonna love this. I met with the prosecutor and

523
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: she flat told me that because Lois wrote a book

524
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: and outline the case and outline too, you know, she

525
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: thought was involved, that she had harmed any future prosecution

526
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: that could happen because she interjected some reasonable doubt if

527
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: it turned out not to be the person that Lois highlighted.

528
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. There's something every single person in

529
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: this room can do, and that's one care that is

530
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: to research this case on your own. You'll see what

531
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 1: we see. It's there when the police show up because

532
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 1: I'm still at the scene. I'm not even at the

533
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: hospital yet. And understand, there are reports and there are

534
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 1: affidavids from the folks that wrote in that amulance and

535
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,280
Speaker 1: EMS said there were no police when they arrived on scene.

536
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: How in God's name is that possible? When we get

537
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: to a scene, we put a rookie in the middle

538
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 1: of the street, and that rookie flags them down. If

539
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: they could have missed this scene? Back up a little

540
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: bit more. The police report says it's a single car,

541
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: a crash with no injuries. For the love of all

542
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: of it is good and holy. How and that's that

543
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: was reported? It gets even better. Guess who found the

544
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: bullet hole in the car? Ems, shut your mouth, Not

545
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: the detective, not the police officer, somebody that rode the ambulance.

546
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: So do I think that the police are embarrassed? Yes?

547
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: Do I think they want Lois to shut up? Yes?

548
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: Do I think they want this case to go away? Yes?

549
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: They should be embarrassed when they say the single car

550
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: crashed with no injuries and it turns out others a

551
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: dead girl with a couple of bullet holes in her head,

552
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 1: And then they say what address are you at? They say,

553
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: there ain't no address here. I've walked the scene myself.

554
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you right now if I'm facing east

555
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: west north of South Okay, I'm one of those you

556
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: know people in law enforces that say you better tell

557
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: me you were getting your ass kicked behind the waffle

558
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: house so I can find you. Don't tell me you're

559
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 1: northeast of Bourbon Street, because I don't know where you are,

560
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: all right. They said there's no address. When I walk

561
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: the scene big as Dallas, there's the address. Okay. Let

562
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: me understand that the prosecutor told you, yes, that they

563
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 1: can't prosecute the case because the mother had a different

564
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: theory and wrote a book about it. Can I just

565
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: remind you about what you reminded me of I had

566
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: a triple homicide? Or the mother of the victim. Yes,

567
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: Lord got up on the stand. She did go ahead.

568
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: This was so dramatic. We had a triple homicide. Now

569
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: imagine that that's enough. Nancy Grace is in the courtroom

570
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: being Nancy Grace, and she's got the jury in the

571
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: palm of her hand, and the mama gets on the

572
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 1: stand and the jury is right with her locked in

573
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: and that mama points to that shooter and she said,

574
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: that is not who shot my son. Well, I'm sitting

575
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: there going, well, this is an old moment. What's Nancy

576
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: Gray's gonna do about this one? Right? All of a sudden,

577
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: I turned without missing a bee. Nancy handles it so

578
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: beautifully that jury goes right back to Nancy because Nancy

579
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: explains what shock and trauma and disbelief can do to

580
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: a victim. On top of where does that mama have

581
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: to go back and live in that neighborhood with those shooters?

582
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: In the shooters family convicted crime stories with Nancy Grace.

583
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,240
Speaker 1: My point is that's a lie to say the mother

584
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: has a different theory. How many people have read the book?

585
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: How many people have read the book? Awesome? Okay, so

586
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: you can't tell me that you can't move it to

587
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: a jurisdiction where coming and read the book? Can? People?

588
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: Like five people raise their hand. But so the judicial

589
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: system's specifically designed. I believe in our justice system, and

590
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: let me say this, it's specifically designed to handle those situations.

591
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: You do move jurisdictions for any prosecutor to ever say

592
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: we can't prosecute that case because there's reasonable that should

593
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: that person should no longer be allowed to try a

594
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: case as a prosecutor ever ever can ask questions, can

595
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: you believe Renee Rockwell has a question? It questions? This

596
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: is to the detective number one? Where are the important

597
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: witnesses at this point? Well boyfriends in California living in

598
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: a townhouse. Okay, this is a This is a situation

599
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: where even today the statute of limitations has not run

600
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: on the investigation. Correct, correct man in that state? How

601
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: long can you put as to get a hold on

602
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: the person? The problem is is this is that I've

603
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: got to get law enforcement. If I were to take

604
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: this case, if she said, hey, take it, which I

605
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: want to, I want to go, you know I would.

606
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: I would go find him. But the problem is in

607
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: the bigger picture of this, and we probably might even

608
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: have time to go into it, is the fact that

609
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: the police department doesn't want anything to do with this. So,

610
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: as I was talking to her before this podcast, We've

611
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: got to find somebody in the Albuquerque Police Department that

612
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: has a freaking heart right and says that this is wrong,

613
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: and and police officers were awful at it. We're ego driven,

614
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: We're like we're right. It's just it's just not that way.

615
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: We're humans. We got to go in there and say, look,

616
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: we really mess this up. This was wrong. We have

617
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: grieving family. It is our duty as police officers, my

618
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: duty when I said I'm gonna be a police officer,

619
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do what I can for you. So my

620
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 1: job today, if I could say anything, is I'll say, look,

621
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: I've dive it. I've dove into this case for three weeks.

622
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: I want to give you, if nothing else, hope, right,

623
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: And that what everybody wants. They want somebody to say,

624
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: you know what, I've looked at this case. I give

625
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: a I'm gonna go do everything I can do to

626
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: bring you some answers because in her, in her opinion

627
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: and the family's opinion, the police department failed her. That's horrible.

628
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll be able to solve everything. But I'll

629
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: tell you what, no family that I have ever ever

630
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: ever dealt with said I didn't do everything I possibly

631
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: could preach. That's what we have to get in closing.

632
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 1: It screams to me with this fraud overview that perhaps

633
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: somebody in the police department is involved. Absolutely, Nancy, can

634
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: I just absolutely so that's what I was trying to

635
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: paint the pictures. So Nancy and I had a case

636
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: a long long time ago where this family went out

637
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: of this way to tell us how this little beauty

638
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: girl got out of the house on her own and

639
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: must you just run off and was lost somehow? Okay,

640
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: that's got to be the most perfect storm for all

641
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: of those things to line up and happen, for this

642
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: car to have no fingerprints, for there not to be

643
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: an address, for it to be a single car crashed,

644
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: no injuries. Excuse me for them to have, you know,

645
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 1: the police not stay at the scene and flag down MS,

646
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: for them not to call for the amulance. What bothers

647
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: me is that you have let's say it was a

648
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: stranger and a happenstance at a drive by shooting and

649
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: we don't know the person. How freaking lucky are they

650
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: that all of these in up cops were the ones

651
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: that showed up. I don't believe that. I don't believe

652
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: in that kind of coincidence. I never will, I never have.

653
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: You got a seasoned detective that's on scene within forty seconds,

654
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: forty seconds and they don't call for an amulets ask

655
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,959
Speaker 1: your question, what about ballistics? Since they managed to get

656
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: one of the bullets, I assume they did a ballistics test.

657
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: I think they said that they were twenty twos. At

658
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: first they were thirty two that fall. That's not hard

659
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: to mess that up. That the calibers on the bullet

660
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: look at it. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, And then

661
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: but they said it was a twenty to the nancy,

662
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: what do you think? No, Well, I mean that this

663
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:28,320
Speaker 1: is the problem. This case unfortunately represented a huger issue

664
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: in the new Albuquerque Police Department. So what can we

665
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: do now? And I believe you have something you want

666
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: to read? Yeah, I would What can we do now? Well,

667
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: I mean you got the biggest voice in here. You know.

668
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: We could go to we're doing it. We can go

669
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: to um uh, the Albuquerque Police Department, we could go

670
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: to the mayor. We could go to somebody that has

671
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: some power, and all they have to say is we

672
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: need this, this case to be reopened. If we need

673
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: to bring in somebody, and I wouldn't bring in anybody

674
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: from the Albuquerque Police Department, I would go what I'd

675
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: call change firsdictions on that. We'll get somebody brand new. Well,

676
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: you just go over one step up and get up. Yeah. Absolutely,

677
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: go to the chief, Go to the chief, go to

678
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: the mayor, find a special prosecutor. Absolutely. I was just

679
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: curious when em Best wrote the report. Was she found

680
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: on the passenger side of the driver's side, passenger side

681
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: with the windows down. This window was shattered, So again

682
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: somebody should have noticed the driver's side window was shattered

683
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: and the bullet hole. So again you've got police officers

684
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: on the scene that didn't notice that, the MT's notice that.

685
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: So again she was driving. She was driving. Last side

686
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: fell over, but she veered all the way over to

687
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: the left. She went over all those lanes of traffic

688
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: in the media and jumped the curve, hit the telephone

689
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: pole and came to rest. But there was fresh damage

690
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: to her back bump her. So somebody could have tapped

691
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: her to try to stop her. They rammed her, stopped her,

692
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: shot her. Is it possible she was in the passenger

693
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: side somebody else was driving and then she was pushed

694
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: into the driver scene. No, no, even her shoes, everything

695
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: was here. I mean you could see even in the

696
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: car there was void were some of the glass where

697
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: she was sitting. And then she slumps over. So when

698
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: she shot, you know, she goes that way. Yes, pursue

699
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: it from another idle, even from somebody else not out.

700
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: I believe the family tried the FBI got the same result.

701
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: What happened was I think they contacted the FBI. With

702
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: the FBI they need to have They needed that new

703
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: Albuquerque Police Department to ask the FBI, and they didn't

704
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: ask them. They said, we don't need your help. We

705
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: got this. Do we still have the vehicle impound? Where's

706
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: the vehicle? Nancy? They never put an evidently hold on

707
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: the vehicle. The vehicle is never even transferred from the scene.

708
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: That's horrible. There's a there's a The first thing is

709
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: with the scene. I have some she's with the vehicle

710
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: even being driven. What I think my theory is is

711
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: it was pitted. Okay, it was hit from behind. It

712
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: was pitted. She rolls into the pole after she was shot.

713
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: Been on many homicide cases where the victim has been

714
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: shot in the car and they roll into a pole. Okay,

715
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: with that type of shot. And I told sherless before,

716
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: on my best day, and I'm pretty good shot on

717
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: my best day with God sitting on my shoulder, hell no,

718
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 1: could I've executed those shots into her face? No freaking way.

719
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: Could they tell if there was any gunshot residue, was

720
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: it a point blank or within three feet? I mean,

721
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: you're asking things that should have the medical exam. I

722
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 1: can tell you there's a photograph of Kate in the

723
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: hospital and her hands are bagged. What her hands are bagged?

724
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: So that means they had to look at the gunshot wound.

725
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 1: If you shoot about thirty six inches or lest, there

726
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: should be a gunshot residue on your body that comes

727
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 1: from the weapon. After that, it's too sign like talcum

728
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: pound to go much further than that. So to right,

729
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: when I do gunshot residue on a shooter or a

730
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: assumed shooter, I will do the top of their hand separately,

731
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: I'll do the inside of their hand. So if there's

732
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: gunshot residue here, were you doing like this? Right? Because

733
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: if you're holding the gun, it shouldn't be there. It

734
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: should be void. Does that make sense? Okay? And I'll

735
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: do both hands exact same way. Because you'll see on

736
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 1: TV they do this. Don't ever do that. Don't watch TV.

737
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: Don't do Yeah, the next time they take a GSR,

738
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: they won't do that now. The only time CSI is

739
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: like TV is when the really sexy girl shows up

740
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: in the hummer and that's all real. That's us us.

741
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: I don't know why we're not on TV. Yeah, baby,

742
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: we're here, and y'all, y'all are sexy. Did I hear

743
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: you right? That they reported as a single car accident

744
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: with no injuries. That's a fact. That would be the

745
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,359
Speaker 1: first mess up of the scene, bess hearing that, And

746
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,479
Speaker 1: they also had no address for whereas see. That makes

747
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: me question the eyewitness because if she was ran from behind,

748
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: that's not what the eyewitness really said. But remember one

749
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: of your eyewitnesses as an own felon that was standing

750
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: by the car and was not taken downtown and shot too.

751
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you're gonna leave a witness. You have somebody

752
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: that went to prison for harm and women standing by

753
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 1: a car with a dead girl in it, and you go, okay,

754
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: you may go have a good evening. Can I jump

755
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: in right there about the witness. That's one of the

756
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: theories about maybe why the police didn't pursue this case

757
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: as much as they should have, because that man that

758
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: was standing next to the car with the dead girl

759
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: with a mortally wounded girl in it, had a violent

760
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: criminal history, violence against women, sexual assault of his step sister,

761
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 1: so that he could go to jail and protect a

762
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: relative from being hurt in prison. Just on and on

763
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: and on. And they didn't even run his name. So

764
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: that was one of the theories that the family had

765
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: that maybe they were trying to cover their tracks because

766
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: it was such a terrible mistake. I want to get

767
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: all your questions in pronto, go ahead of anybody, won't

768
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 1: be out the prison life. Sorry. Okay, So you said

769
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: that there was a bug or a Volkswagen whatever, and

770
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 1: there was a boyfriend. The boyfriend had a connection to

771
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: that kind of car, right, No, no earth witness? So

772
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: was that car ever checked to see if it adding

773
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:38,760
Speaker 1: any damage on the front buffer? What do you think? Yeah? Yeah, So, Actually,

774
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 1: as I understand it, the witness at the scene when

775
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: the first cop drove up, he found this man standing there.

776
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: The man had a VW bug also. By the time

777
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 1: er arrived and said there was nobody at the scene,

778
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: the man and the bug had been allowed to leave,

779
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 1: and the cops had left, he'd have been in cuffs.

780
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say again, how lucky is that shooter.

781
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Is the entire police department on the take?

782
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: I didn't hear the class the entire police department on

783
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: the take. I can just tell you no, because people

784
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: can't keep their mouths shut for that long. And we

785
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 1: need to find that one officer, right Like when somebody

786
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 1: I always say this, when somebody tells you a secret,

787
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you the secret. You gotta swear to

788
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: God you're not gonna tell anybody. Swear I swear. I

789
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: mean that's where all the theories about OJ's conspiracy cover

790
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: up that did not happen. Uh, she wants to know

791
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: you believe anyone within the force is connected to the

792
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: crime ring I do. It only takes one. Again, you

793
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: had one of the police officers that was on the

794
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: scene later arrested for robin a bank. Absolutely. Well, it

795
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like this was investigated very well. So this

796
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,800
Speaker 1: is probably a dumb question. I've read that what about

797
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: this friend that she was going to visit and the

798
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: written directions to your house? I mean, the shooter had

799
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: to know where she was to be able to gun

800
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 1: her down. Um, so was she ever questioned? Um? You know,

801
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: I think she was a questioned. This is how this

802
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: went down. She was questioned, I think, and then she

803
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: said she didn't have anything to say, and the detective

804
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, that's not how any of that works, right, guys,

805
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: there's a special thing. Um. I want you to hear

806
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: that our guest has written. Um. Can I do it here?

807
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: Or do it right? Uh? And of course she threw

808
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,439
Speaker 1: it to me. I have to open the phone. So

809
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: you talk about anniversaries and you think of them as

810
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: being something lovely. You know, it's it's your wedding anniversary.

811
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: Kate's thirty year shooting anniversary is July sixteenth. And like

812
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: my mother, I am an author, and this is the

813
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: message I would like to send out there. You, you

814
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: who killed my sister, You who know who killed my sister,

815
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 1: You who suspect who killed my sister, are aging. The

816
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: day will come when you discover a lump in your breast,

817
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: a swelling in your growing blood, in a palm when

818
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: you cough. There will be a time when you're told

819
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: that a test result showed something too frightening to look

820
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: at directly, and you will cry out to God. You

821
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: will try to make deals and promise him, anything, everything.

822
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: If only you are spared, you would not the courage

823
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: the spine during your life to do the right thing,

824
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: to lessen the suffering of my family by speaking the truth.

825
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: And now you cry out to be spared your own suffering. Listen,

826
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: that's God laughing for our recording. If you have information

827
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,240
Speaker 1: regarding the cheeting death of Caitlin Arquett, just eighteen years

828
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: old at the time she was shot, please call five

829
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: zero five eight four three stop repeat five zero five

830
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: eight four three seven eight six seven. Nancy Grace Crime

831
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: Story signing off, goodbye, friend W