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Speaker 1: A little baby starved dead in his own bassinet while

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Speaker 1: the parents are in the home. The home is a wreck.

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Speaker 1: One child sleeping in a hammock, one child sleeping in

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Speaker 1: a dog bed on the floor, the other child in

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Speaker 1: the bassie, wasting away until the baby dies. Now the

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Speaker 1: parents are claiming, Oh, it wasn't our fault. We're vegans. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I've heard of the twinkie defense. I've heard of the

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Speaker 1: I'm all my period defense, but now the vegan defense.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories. I want justice

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Two parents in Cape Coral are

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Speaker 1: charged with the death of their eighteen month old son.

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Speaker 1: The baby wage just seventeen pounds at the time of

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Speaker 1: his death. Experts say seventeen pounds is what a seven

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Speaker 1: month old should weigh, not a baby who's a year

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Speaker 1: and a half old. A Lee County grand jury indicted

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Speaker 1: Ryan Patrick O'Leary and Sheila O'Leary Wednesday on charges a

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Speaker 1: first agree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter, child abuse,

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Speaker 1: and two counts of child neglect. According to a police report,

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Speaker 1: the mother called nine one one in September when she

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Speaker 1: noticed her son was not breathing and felt cold. According

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Speaker 1: to Newspress, the baby was dead when paramedics arrived. The

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Speaker 1: state attorney for the case says the indictments also include

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Speaker 1: three other children who suffered child abuse and extreme neglect.

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Speaker 1: They are three years old, five years old, and eleven

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Speaker 1: years old. You are hearing our friend at CBS Miami.

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Speaker 1: That's Katie Johnson's speaking. An eighteen month old infant dead,

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Speaker 1: weighing just seventeen pounds us what a baby should weigh?

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Speaker 1: A six or seven month old? With me an all

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Speaker 1: star panel to make sense of it all. Doctor Daniel

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Speaker 1: Bober forensics psychiatrist at Doctor Daniel Bober on Instagram, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, the medical examiner for the State off Florida Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Zasberg Founder Beer Bones Consulting, Karen Smith, James Shelnut twenty

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Speaker 1: seven years metro major case and SWAT officer, now lawyer

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Speaker 1: and joining me special guests to represents. Sheila O'Leary, the

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Speaker 1: thirty five year old mom and you can find him

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Speaker 1: at MUSCA law dot com MUSCA. But first, let's go

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Speaker 1: through the facts. What we know happen when mommy calls

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Speaker 1: nine one one. Sheila O'Leary thirty five and Ryan O'Leary,

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Speaker 1: thirty are from Florida, and mommy calls nine one one

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Speaker 1: when she realizes her baby is cold to the touch.

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Speaker 1: First of all, to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for

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Speaker 1: the state of Florida, how long would it take in

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Speaker 1: all beyond air in a home. Let's just say at

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Speaker 1: sixty eight to seventy degrees in the home. How long

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Speaker 1: would it take for a baby to get cold to

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Speaker 1: the touch? Well, after the baby dies, the body loses

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Speaker 1: about one degree per hour, So then cold to the

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Speaker 1: touch of sort of a relative term, So I would

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Speaker 1: guess it would be a few hours before the baby

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Speaker 1: starts feeling cold to the touch. I'm sorry, did you

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Speaker 1: say one to three hours. I'm saying that the body

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Speaker 1: loses one degree of temperature every hour, So if the

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Speaker 1: baby feels cold to the touch, the baby should have

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Speaker 1: been deceased for several hours. Well, how what body chimp

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Speaker 1: makes you cold to the touch? How cold you have

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Speaker 1: to be to be cold to the touch? Well, that's

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Speaker 1: a relative term. Everyone's a little different, you know, But

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Speaker 1: I would think that once the body temperature goes below

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Speaker 1: ninety degrees aarrenheight. Then most people would assume that that

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Speaker 1: would be a cold to the touch. Okay, below ninety

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Speaker 1: degrees fahrenheit equals cold to the touch, and that's I'm

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Speaker 1: sure ephemistic. I'm sure you're you're going with in light

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Speaker 1: most favorable to the mom and dad. So body temperature

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Speaker 1: is typically ninety eight point six Do I at least

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Speaker 1: have that right? You certainly do now, certainly, So to

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Speaker 1: get down to ninety degrees to be cold to the

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Speaker 1: touch would be eight point six hours. Is that not correct?

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Speaker 1: That would be true for an adult with a baby,

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Speaker 1: possibly they would lose heat even even faster than that.

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Speaker 1: So I would say maximum eight hours of death, but

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Speaker 1: it could be a half that, it could be four

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Speaker 1: hours or so. It depends on the body, the surface

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Speaker 1: area of the of the baby when they die. I'm

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Speaker 1: very curious about what time of the day that nine

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Speaker 1: one one is called. I'm taking a look at the

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Speaker 1: family's home. They are in Cape Coral. It looks like

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Speaker 1: a lovely home. There is a grass yard in the front,

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Speaker 1: a palm tree in the front that it's landscaped and manicured.

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Speaker 1: It's not big, but it looks like a typical ranch

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Speaker 1: style home. It looks to me like there is a

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Speaker 1: BMW parked in the front. But what I do know

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Speaker 1: is that mommy calls. Also, we've learned that there was

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Speaker 1: a probably caused affidavit that was issued by police. It

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Speaker 1: says the other children were pale and had yellowish skin,

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Speaker 1: and one of them had blackened teeth caused by dental decay. Okay,

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Speaker 1: doctor Gallingher, I know you're a you're an MD, not

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Speaker 1: a DDS a dentist, But what can you tell me?

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Speaker 1: How long would it take teeth blackened from decay? Not

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Speaker 1: long at all, as it also depends on the child's genetics.

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Speaker 1: But if you are malnourished, you do not have good

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Speaker 1: teeth formation, and that they are more susceptible to becoming

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Speaker 1: decayed if good dental hygiene is not practiced regularly. But

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Speaker 1: I mean turning black. How can you say that doesn't

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Speaker 1: take long and off your teeth and turn black. Well,

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Speaker 1: your teeth have to start out good to begin with,

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Speaker 1: and if they have a chronic history of being malnourished,

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Speaker 1: the teeth will not form properly and they are very,

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Speaker 1: very susceptible to decay if they're not brushed enough. Kept

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Speaker 1: so you know, it could just it could be we're

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Speaker 1: talking in terms of eighteen months, could be two years,

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Speaker 1: you know, before they turn black like like you're describing. Okay, No,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, you said, no time at all. I

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Speaker 1: guess I'm looking at things differently than you do, doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: because I'm looking at obvious premeditated child neglect. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: for me, that can be a period of hours you

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Speaker 1: neglect your childs if also the swimming pool and dies,

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Speaker 1: you neglect your child old, it burns itself on your

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Speaker 1: curling arm because you're not paying attention. That's felony child

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Speaker 1: abuse neglect. Eighteen months is a lifetime, a lifetime to

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Speaker 1: form premeditation under the law. But before I have these two,

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Speaker 1: the mom and the dad, Ryan Patrick O'Leary and Sheila

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Speaker 1: O'Leary strung up at the gallows, let's go to Sheila

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Speaker 1: O'Leary's defense attorney, excellent reputation throughout the jurisdiction, John Muska. Okay, John,

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Speaker 1: how can the children's teeth be black with decay and

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Speaker 1: they're not be parental neglect? What would be the defense

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Speaker 1: for that? Nancy? My understanding is that they had been

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Speaker 1: receiving don't care, and we have not been able to

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Speaker 1: confirm on ir ND that they have in fact been

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Speaker 1: neglected to that extent. So defense counsel is unequivocally denying

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Speaker 1: any type of in that respect. Okay, So here's my question,

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Speaker 1: and you're gonna have to face this when you guys

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Speaker 1: go to trial or the case is resolved. I guarantee

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Speaker 1: you that they're going to at least, at the very

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Speaker 1: least be police witnesses or defacts for what they're worth.

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Speaker 1: Department Family Children's Services witnesses stating that children's teeth were black.

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Speaker 1: Not talking about the dead baby, talking about the other children. Now,

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Speaker 1: there was an eleven year old in the home that

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Speaker 1: apparently was thriving. Documents revealed the eleven year old, who's

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Speaker 1: Sheila Ulear's daughter from another relationship, visits her bioden Virginia

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Speaker 1: every two months. She was in much better physical shape

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Speaker 1: compared to her emaciated half siblings. Now we also learned

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Speaker 1: that when interviewed by police, your client, Sheila O'Leary. This

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Speaker 1: is according to their documents, she said her youngest child

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Speaker 1: had not eaten anything other than breast milk for the

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Speaker 1: week leading up to his death. She said he didn't

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Speaker 1: have an appetite because he was teething. You know, John,

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Speaker 1: you better not stack that jury full of moms, because

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Speaker 1: I nut up if Lucy won't eat her dinner last night.

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Speaker 1: She only ate half of her steak patty with cheese

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Speaker 1: on top, and I was beside myself. I made her

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Speaker 1: a penyb in j after with a glass of meal

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Speaker 1: to tempt her, which she ate. Sounds a little bit

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Speaker 1: happier with that, But a week, John, I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is not the police. This is your clients saying that

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Speaker 1: according to police documents. How can you fight that at trial? Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: first of all, the reality is that many many kids

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Speaker 1: worldwide are raised on vegan and vegetarian diets. Are that

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Speaker 1: you just find something else was happening here, something else

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Speaker 1: was going on. We're still gathering information, we're still in

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Speaker 1: the early stages of China ascertain an alternate cause here.

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Speaker 1: But we're solidly of the opinion that the child was

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Speaker 1: doing just fine and had been doing fine on the

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Speaker 1: raw vegan diet. So we're yet to determine where we're

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Speaker 1: going to go from here in that regard. Well, I

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Speaker 1: agree with you on much of what you just said,

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Speaker 1: John Musca, because many people are vegetarian. My nephews vegetarian,

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Speaker 1: his wife, girls and my daughter's Scout troop are vegetarian.

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Speaker 1: They're doing They're all doing just fine. Now. These children

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Speaker 1: were all fed a diet, according to mommy and daddy

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Speaker 1: of mainly consisting of mangoes, bananas, avocados. They were also

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Speaker 1: homeschooled by their mother. But to say that the child

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Speaker 1: hadn't eaten for a week because it was teething, that's

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Speaker 1: not gonna fly. I mean, daughter Tim Gallagher Medical Exam

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Speaker 1: or State of Florida. How many days can a child

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Speaker 1: go without eating and live an infant well, if a

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Speaker 1: child is well nourished, they can go probably five to

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Speaker 1: seven days, you know, without protein, but they will need fluids.

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Speaker 1: You know. Another part of this case is, you know,

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Speaker 1: the autopsy is going to prove very vital. Here we

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Speaker 1: alone to make sure that the child did not have

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Speaker 1: a gastro intestinal or stomach or intestinal malle Time Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Hearing the couple's initial court appearance, a

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Speaker 1: defense lawyer argued that the eighteen month old baby been

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Speaker 1: six for six months prior to death, But what the

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Speaker 1: defense is up against is that the autopsy report says

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Speaker 1: that the baby died from mal nutrition. That is what

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Speaker 1: the autopsy report shows, So too, doctor Tim Gallagher, how

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Speaker 1: would the autopsy What would the child's body look like

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Speaker 1: if it had been malnourished, died of malnourishment. Well, naturally,

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Speaker 1: there would be no apparent fat on the body. The intestines.

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Speaker 1: Once the inspection of the intestines will reveal that there

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Speaker 1: is no food in the upper part of the intestine

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Speaker 1: and no stool in the lower part of the intestine.

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Speaker 1: Plus all the measurements that we do, the circumference of

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Speaker 1: the head, the circumference of the stomach, the length of

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Speaker 1: the body, each and all of the limbs would be

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Speaker 1: well under what would be considered normal. Well, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean anything to me, doctor Gallagher, about the length, because

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Speaker 1: when Lucy was in my stomach, all the dactors told

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Speaker 1: me that she was progressing perfectly. When she was born,

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Speaker 1: John David weighed over five pounds. She barely weighed two pounds.

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Speaker 1: Her body was the right length, but she was not

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Speaker 1: getting the nourishment. So I don't know if I agree

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Speaker 1: with you. Of course, I'm a JD. You're an MD

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Speaker 1: that the length of the body means anything. Am I

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Speaker 1: totally off base? Well, it would have to be not

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Speaker 1: just the length, that's the one that's not the measurement

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Speaker 1: you want to key in on. But it's the circumference

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Speaker 1: of the stomach, the weight of the organs, it's the

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Speaker 1: entire body taken as a whole. Okay, so if you look, so,

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Speaker 1: if you look at somebody who is normal compared to

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Speaker 1: somebody who was malnourished, you're going to see obvious differences

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Speaker 1: in the sizes of the exterior and when you go

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Speaker 1: inside the body you'll see the same thing on the inside. Well,

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Speaker 1: we have another issue. I'm gonna throw this at John Muska,

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Speaker 1: the lawyer for Sheila O'Leary, the mom in this case.

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Speaker 1: I guarantee you John, you're going to face an issue

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Speaker 1: in that people judge the mom or harshly than than

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Speaker 1: the dad. You know, doctor Daniel Bober, Forensics, psychiatrists joining

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Speaker 1: me out of the floor to jurisdiction. Why is it

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Speaker 1: that in a case like this, people are gonna blame

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Speaker 1: the mom more than the dad. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: you know in divorce cases they always say that the

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Speaker 1: child should go to the mother too, so I think

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Speaker 1: both parents probably share blame equally. But you know, society

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Speaker 1: has preconceived notions about gender roles. No offense, but that's

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Speaker 1: totally not my question. Go ahead. I think society has

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Speaker 1: preconceived notions about gender roles, so I think that's what

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Speaker 1: it has to do it. Okay, I guess you know

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Speaker 1: if everybody searches your heart, I know you love your

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Speaker 1: dad because my dad was closest person in the world

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Speaker 1: to me and I miss him every single day. But

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Speaker 1: when you skin your knee, when you're in trouble, when

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Speaker 1: you get out of jail or you're on the run,

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Speaker 1: who do you go to? Mommy? Mommy, it's always mommy.

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Speaker 1: You look on the inmates in the jailhouse, who do

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Speaker 1: they have tattooed on their arm? Mommy? They don't have Daddy. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why that is. I'm not a shrink,

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Speaker 1: but I guarantee you Musca, at trial, they're gonna judge

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Speaker 1: mommy more harshly than dad, unless you can come up

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Speaker 1: with a battered women syndrome defense where she was afraid

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Speaker 1: to do anything other than what she did. Also, is

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Speaker 1: it true that your clients Sheila has a prior case

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Speaker 1: out of Virginia because her oldest daughter had been placed

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Speaker 1: in state custody for failure to thrive and severe malnutrition

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Speaker 1: that had already happened in Virginia. Well, Nancy, I can

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Speaker 1: confirm only that that matter out of Virginia has been closed.

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Speaker 1: But I don't I don't believe defense counsel. Well, oh, wait,

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Speaker 1: what matter? What matter in virtu indicated that you're inquiring

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Speaker 1: about some type of matter in Virginia. Correct, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: was inquiring about a case out of Virginia that mom's,

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Speaker 1: Sheila O'Leary, now thirty five, had when our eldest daughter

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Speaker 1: was put in state custody over a failure to thrive

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Speaker 1: and severe malnutrition. Now that happened in Virginia, and then

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Speaker 1: they moved to Florida. I also know the prosecutor said

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Speaker 1: that one of the children had to have teeth pulled

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Speaker 1: because of severe decay and malnutrition. Hold on just a moment,

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Speaker 1: let me go to our doctor, doctor Gallagher. Doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: when doctors or teachers or nurses see any type of

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Speaker 1: neglect or what they think is neglect, I mean, MUSCA

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Speaker 1: may have a perfectly good reason to explain all this,

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Speaker 1: which I doubt musca no offense, but don't dentists if

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Speaker 1: given the opportunity, Okay, no, go ahead, go I want

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Speaker 1: to hear it. And you mentioned defense Council would need

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Speaker 1: to have a good reason, you know, a battered women's

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Speaker 1: under mine. I don't believe. I don't believe we need that.

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Speaker 1: I believe we need to posit solid alternate theories that

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Speaker 1: speak to both the cause and the manner of death,

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Speaker 1: alternative to neglect. And I believe once the evidence is

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Speaker 1: revealed and the facts become known, I believe that we're

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Speaker 1: going to be successful doing just that. As you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: with first degree murder, it's premeditation you mentioned earlier. Premeditation

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Speaker 1: that means that the prosecutor is going to need to

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Speaker 1: prove that Sheila had to have knowledge that she was

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Speaker 1: harming the child in a knowing or intentional manner, and

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Speaker 1: we believe that that's going to be difficult to prove. Remember,

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Speaker 1: it's the mental state as well that they need to

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Speaker 1: prove the need to somehow get into her head and

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Speaker 1: establish that as a key element of the offense. And

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Speaker 1: we simply don't believe that they're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to prove that. Well. John Muska is joining maybe a

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Speaker 1: lawyer for Sheila O. Leary at Musca law dot com.

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Speaker 1: Does she have any type of mental or emotional impairment? Well,

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to be able to get into

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Speaker 1: as that's protected by the attorney claim privilege. Nancy, I'm

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Speaker 1: not able to comment on that. And again we're still

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Speaker 1: learning more and more about this case daily, okay, And

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Speaker 1: I understand that that's going to be an offensive trial.

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Speaker 1: You want to keep that close to your vest. But

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Speaker 1: under the law, premeditation can be formed in a moment,

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Speaker 1: in the twinkling of an eye and the time it

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Speaker 1: takes you to pull a trigger. If you have already

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Speaker 1: told police you didn't feed your baby for a week,

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Speaker 1: the baby had never been to the doctor in eighteen

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Speaker 1: months according to police, You've got other children with their

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Speaker 1: teeth getting pulled because of malnutrition and a prior incident

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Speaker 1: in Virginia. Doesn't have to be a conviction where a

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Speaker 1: child is taken away because of malnutrition the law. If

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Speaker 1: all that is true and there is no mental impairment,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't that equal premeditation? To doctor Bober, for instance, psychiatrists

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Speaker 1: wouldn't that qualify it? I agree with you, Nancy, you know,

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Speaker 1: specifically with the time period. I mean it could be

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Speaker 1: eighteen months, and it could even be a second. I

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Speaker 1: think that's uh, that would be enough to qualify for

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Speaker 1: premeditation crime. Stories with Nancy, Grace got a question, what

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about their vegan diet. John Musca

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Speaker 1: very particular about and making sure that the children were

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Speaker 1: fed in a healthy manner. Vegan diet and as we

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Speaker 1: would know, would include nuts, beans, cantaloupes, potatoes, bananas, just

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Speaker 1: you know, anything, anything and everything that was healthy. Most vegetables.

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Speaker 1: The children ate a lot of homegrown tomatoes, cucumbers, homegrown tomatillos,

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Speaker 1: even figs. They are around the healthiest of diets, the

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Speaker 1: healthiest of diets. But they, according to police and all

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Speaker 1: the documents, were malnourished. There had been a previous case

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Speaker 1: of malnourishment in Virginia. So you know, you say it's

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Speaker 1: a great vegan diet, but they weren't getting enough to eat.

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Speaker 1: Their teeth were rotting out in pull because of malnourishment.

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Speaker 1: Another issue I don't quite understand. To doctor Daniel bober

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Speaker 1: Neighbors reportedly claimed they did not notice anything wrong. What

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Speaker 1: can you tell us about signs of neglect that are

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Speaker 1: missed well? And Nancy, you know, in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: families will try to conceal it from their neighbors because

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Speaker 1: they know that the neighbors are probably the first people

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Speaker 1: that are going to be calling the authorities. So I

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Speaker 1: would say that very often attempts will be made to

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Speaker 1: even prevent the child from speaking to the neighbors, having

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Speaker 1: any outside contact, because they do want to keep things

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Speaker 1: a secret and sweeping under the road. You know. Also,

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Speaker 1: I think that to Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of

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Speaker 1: Bare Bones Consulting, when you're speaking to neighbors, very often

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Speaker 1: they may see the children, but they're not close enough

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Speaker 1: to realize something is wrong. And very typically children are

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Speaker 1: not going they're out of fear or they're shy. Are

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Speaker 1: not going to go up to people and say I'm hungry. No,

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Speaker 1: they won't. And when neighbors see children may be playing

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Speaker 1: out in the yard, they're closed, Nancy, they have clothes on.

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Speaker 1: They're not seeing these children without their clothes on, and

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Speaker 1: that may be a telltale sign. They may be happy,

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Speaker 1: go lucky kids playing in the yard. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: an eighteen month old baby here that is now deceased.

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Speaker 1: And when you go in the crime scene of something

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Speaker 1: like that, the hardest thing to do is stay clinical

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Speaker 1: and stay objective. That's my job. My job is not

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Speaker 1: to hamstring anyone. My job is to go in and

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Speaker 1: find the evidence, to collect it, photographs everything. The mother

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Speaker 1: alleged she was breastfeeding the child. Was she pumping breast milk?

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Speaker 1: Was there any in the fridge? Did she have a

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Speaker 1: warmer for the bottles? What kind of food was in

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Speaker 1: the cabinets, what was in the refrigerator, What did the

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Speaker 1: environment look like? Where were they sleeping? All of those

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Speaker 1: things would be my job to collect and document. And

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Speaker 1: in this case, I really don't know what they had

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Speaker 1: or what they didn't, But I do know that one

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Speaker 1: of the investigators on the scene said it was horrible,

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Speaker 1: and I really don't know what that means. We don't

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Speaker 1: know what that means. We've got to get detailed police reports.

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Speaker 1: But I do know this. The autopsy is in the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner says that the taught died complications relating to malnutrition, dehydration,

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Speaker 1: micro steatosis of liver, and swelling of hands, feet, and legs.

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Speaker 1: What does all that mean, doctor Gallagher. Yeah, that's probably

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Speaker 1: what we would expect to find in somebody who died

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Speaker 1: of malnutrition. So when you draw blood on somebody who's malnourished,

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Speaker 1: it is highly viscous, meaning is very thick because there's

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Speaker 1: no water present in the body that the rest of

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Speaker 1: you know. The same goes for the other blood results

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Speaker 1: that you'll get. They certainly would show a pattern of

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Speaker 1: dehydration and malnutrition in terms of having low protein in

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Speaker 1: those fluids. Microsteatosis of the liver is of the there

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Speaker 1: is no protein to support the growth of the liver,

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Speaker 1: and steatosis is fatty infiltration of the liver, and if

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Speaker 1: you have fat in the liver, then the normal function

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Speaker 1: of the liver is compromised. Right, You're to a point

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Speaker 1: where even if you do get food, Right, You're to

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Speaker 1: a point where, even if you do get food, that

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Speaker 1: you will not be able to process it and recover

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Speaker 1: from this level of malnutrition. Take a listener, friends at

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Speaker 1: Fox four. This is Jessica Alprin describing what happened. Going

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Speaker 1: back to those neighbors that I had been speaking with.

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Speaker 1: They were again describing a very chaotic scene out here

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Speaker 1: in their home. They say when those officers showed up,

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Speaker 1: they saw some of the children being taken away, but

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Speaker 1: they also saw officers going behind the home of the o'learies,

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Speaker 1: checking even in the garbage cans to see if there

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Speaker 1: was new evidence even there. So again, neighbors just out

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Speaker 1: here this morning with a lot of questions. They'll remain

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Speaker 1: exactly what happened to that child. We're still working to

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Speaker 1: figure out the relationship of the o'learis, Patrick Ryan, Patrick O'Leary,

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Speaker 1: and Sheila O'Leary, And again, neighbors describing to us that

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Speaker 1: they believe at least four children lived inside of this home.

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Speaker 1: We do it does sound from those neighbors that all

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Speaker 1: of those children have been taken away ever since that

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Speaker 1: initial death investigation that took place here in September. So

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Speaker 1: we're working to put the pieces together for you, and

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Speaker 1: as soon as we have new information, will be sure

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Speaker 1: to update you both on air and online. The indictment

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Speaker 1: also includes three other victims, a three year old, a

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Speaker 1: five year old, and an eleven year old, who it

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Speaker 1: is alleged suffered from child abuse an extreme neglect. The

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Speaker 1: alleged crimes occurred during twenty nineteen in Cape Coral. The

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Speaker 1: evidence in the crime scene in these cases are gut wrenching.

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Speaker 1: As a mother and a state attorney, these are images

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Speaker 1: I will never be able to forget. I'm very curious

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Speaker 1: about what else was found at the scene. We are

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Speaker 1: learning that the neighbors described as chaotic saying with a

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Speaker 1: children being taken away from their home to doctor Daniel

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Speaker 1: Bob or forensics psychiatrists. What effect will that have on

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Speaker 1: the siblings, the ones that lived, Yes, Nancy, you know

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Speaker 1: it's going to be traumatic for them and it's currently

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Speaker 1: they will you know, need therapy or counseling to help

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Speaker 1: them deal with this. Well, I guess so. And how

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Speaker 1: do you get over to doctor Tim Gallagher? Or extreme

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Speaker 1: malnourishment to the point that your teeth have to be

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Speaker 1: pulled out, that's going to be very difficult, Nancy. They're

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Speaker 1: going to have to if it's possible to even recover

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Speaker 1: from this type of malnutrition, they will need intravenous fluid

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Speaker 1: or intravenous protein material through their bloodstream, so we can

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Speaker 1: go directly to their organs and try to resuscitate them

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Speaker 1: or try to get them going again. So this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a very difficult, very long process, and

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Speaker 1: I would imagine somebody who was in their adolescence it

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Speaker 1: would probably take six months or maybe even a full

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Speaker 1: year to recover totally. Take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at NBC two. This is Megan Bragg. We're also learning

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Speaker 1: the three other children in the home were only allowed

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Speaker 1: to eat raw fruits and vegetables, and two of them

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Speaker 1: were severely underweight. Sheila and Ryan did admit to police

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Speaker 1: they thought something was wrong with her baby weeks before,

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Speaker 1: but didn't call for help. In this nine page report

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Speaker 1: just obtained by NBC two, Sheila tells police the baby

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Speaker 1: became six six months ago and was throwing up and

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00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: lost weight about a week before the baby died. Sheila

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Speaker 1: says they're eighteen month old, stopped eating and would only

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Speaker 1: breastfeed occasionally. The medical examiner says the baby was extremely malnourished, dehydrated,

424
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: and feet were swollen. Sheila says the baby has never

425
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: been to the doctor. Was born inside their home. Cape

426
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: Coral police also say two other children were also extremely

427
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: underweight and one of their children's teeth were rotting. Sheila

428
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: told police the family would sleep in the living room

429
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: with one child on a hammock and another on a dogbed.

430
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Sheila and Ryan did admit

431
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: to police they thought something was wrong with her baby

432
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: weeks before, but didn't call for help. In this nine

433
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 1: page report just obtained by NBC two, Sheila tells police

434
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: the baby became sick six months ago and was throwing

435
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: up and lost weight about a week before the baby died.

436
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: Sheila says they're eighteen month old, stopped eating and would

437
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: only breastfeed occasionally. The medical examiner says the baby was

438
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: extremely malnourished, dehydrated, and feet were swollen. Sheila says the

439
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: baby has never been to the doctor and was born

440
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: inside their home. Cape Coral. Police also say two other

441
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: children were also extremely underweight and one of their children's

442
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: teeth were rotting. Sheila told police the family would sleep

443
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 1: in the living room with one child on a hammock

444
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: and another on a dogbed. Sheila O'Leary's attorney told me

445
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: all the kids living in this home were healthy and

446
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: now I did ask him about the claims of malnourishment,

447
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: and he says o'larry actually breastfed her son just a

448
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 1: few hours before he died. So he doesn't think malnutrition

449
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,719
Speaker 1: was the cause of death. Now, Sheila O'Leary and her

450
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: husband Ryan face a manslaughter charge after their baby died

451
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: here back in September. They turned themselves in last night

452
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: after the medical examiner revealed malnutrition caused the baby's death.

453
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: Alariy's attorney, John Muska told me on Skye today that

454
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: his client was so religious that she did not allow

455
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: any of her four kids to watch television. He also

456
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: says she's vegan but fed her children balanced mills. But

457
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: he did say there were health concerns regarding the toddler

458
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: before he died. The child had been sick six months

459
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: prior and had not fully recuperated. The child had started

460
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: eating better, and then the child began teething, and the

461
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,479
Speaker 1: mother was concerned, very concerned that that was causing him

462
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: to not eat as well. You're hearing attorney John Muska,

463
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 1: who's with us right now along with Fox Foreign Knees

464
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: reporter Rachel Lloyd. So how do you combat at trial, John,

465
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: when the medical examiner says cause of death is malnutrition,

466
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: starved to death? How do you fight that and say, though, no, no, no,

467
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: that's not why I died. Well, the cause of death

468
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: may be listed as malnutrition on the corners or port Nancy,

469
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: but the manner of death is listed as an accident.

470
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: And as I'm sure you know, if the suggestion was homicide,

471
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: the manner of death would be listed as such on

472
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: the corners or and it's not. Also with respect to

473
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: the cause of death indicated as malnutrition is this is

474
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: one medical examiner's opinion and one examiner's opinion alone, and

475
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: so so we're optimistic. Okay, I understand that. I got

476
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: another question for you. Why is one of the children

477
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: sleeping in a hammock and another child sleeping in a

478
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: dog bed? Nancy? I don't I don't have any answer

479
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: to that, Okay. You know that's going to be something

480
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: fun for you to face at trial. Back to the

481
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: medical exam, we're joining US Chief Medical exam Er for

482
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: the State of Florida's doctor Tim Gallagher. You know, I'm

483
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: listening to what John Musk is saying at MUSCA law

484
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: dot com. What do you make of the claim that?

485
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: And you know when the lawyer says something like he'd

486
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: been sick for six months, the lawyers getting that from

487
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: somewhere Muscat to just make that up. That had to

488
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: come from either the mom or the dad or someone

489
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: related to the family. So wouldn't that have shown up

490
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: in the medical examiners report number one and number two?

491
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: How can the malnourishment, the starving of a child be

492
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: an accident because it takes at least a week for

493
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: a child to starve to death. Good questions, Nancy, You

494
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: know the the second part of the question would be,

495
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, why is it an accident? Well, you know

496
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: he did mention that it is. There is one medical

497
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: examiner's opinion. So based on the totality of the evidence

498
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: provided to the medical examiner at the time of the autopsy,

499
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: they were unable to determine at that time if it

500
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: was intentional or if it was an accident. Other medical

501
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: examiners may put the manner of death as undetermined, but

502
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: he felt confident enough to say that it was an

503
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: actual How can starving a child? Okay, let me try

504
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: to rephrase my question. How can a child starve to

505
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: death over a period of at least seven days and

506
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: that be an accident? Doctor Gallagher, That's a great question

507
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: and a great question to ask the medical examiner who

508
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: did the autopsy. Um, But again, that was his opinion.

509
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 1: Why is it an accident? I really don't have an

510
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: answer for that. Maybe he was not a praise of

511
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: all of the information at the time that he did

512
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: do the autopsy. And I believe that would be the

513
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: most likely cause, Nancy, we could go ahead, jump. We

514
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: could have many many causes underlying causes of malnutrition which

515
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: could eventually lead to lead to dehydration and death. You know,

516
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: children suffering from a very intense flu virus, children having

517
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,800
Speaker 1: an allergic reaction to a certain food type of food groups,

518
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: which which leads to malnutrition and leads to death. So

519
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: I think we're I think we're I think we need

520
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: to put away the butcher knives and the pitchforks and

521
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: not make make a rush to job dgment on exactly

522
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: what the cause of death was here. But clearly, this

523
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: particular medical examiner, on this particular day made the conclusion

524
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: that the cause of death was malnutrition. And obviously, well, John,

525
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: I hear you, I hear you. Don't have a pitchfork

526
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: in my hand, but I do have twelve year old

527
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: twins boy girl, who I nursed to health when they

528
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 1: were born extremely premature, and one greatly malnourished in utero.

529
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: I do know that much, and you're right. I don't

530
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: have an MD MD, I have a JD, but I

531
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: know this much. I don't need an MD to tell

532
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: me something is very wrong when your children's teeth are

533
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: black because of mal nourishment. And I know I don't

534
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: need anybody to tell me. I know there's something wrong

535
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: when a baby sleeps in a dog bed on the floor.

536
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: I know that nobody needs to tell me that that

537
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: is going to be your uphill battle. And John Muska,

538
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: I'm not attacking you. You are what we want in

539
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: America because when people are charged with crimes, we need

540
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: lawyers that are ready, willing and able to defend them

541
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: with all ethical possibilities. But this is just a tiny

542
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: bit of what you are up against. Listen to Wink

543
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: reporter Anika. At first glance, you'd never know the scope

544
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: of suffering. Police say happened at this house. But after

545
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: spending the day in the neighborhood, I can tell there's

546
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 1: a sense of anger and sadness, sadness for the suffering.

547
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: The children who lived in this house went through an

548
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: anger at the parents. Detectives say, let it all happen.

549
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: The medical examiner says, in this house, a little boy

550
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 1: starved to death, and police likely saved his two older sisters,

551
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: ages three and five, from a similar fate. As a neighbor,

552
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: I wish that there was something that I wouldn't go

553
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: and as a mom, it's horrible. It's horrible. Investigators point

554
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: the finger at their parents, Sheila and Ryan, and O'Leary's

555
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: shocking to find that out, especially with little children, he said,

556
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 1: those four children there was Police removed the surviving three

557
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: children from the O'Leary's care when they found the eighteen

558
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: month old victim dead. In the last days the mom

559
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: and dad were both in court. They both have pled

560
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: not guilty to murder and other charges stemming from the

561
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: death of their eighteen month old child, Ezra Sage O'Leary.

562
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: Those charges first degree murder, aggravated child abuse, aggravated manslaughter,

563
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: child abuse, two count's child neglect. We wait as justice unfolds.

564
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace's crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,