1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: Okay, this is it heading the refreshed button. It's eight 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: fifty nine am. On the morning of July ninth, twenty nineteen, 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: I was sitting at my kitchen table with the Supreme 4 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Court's website open on my browser. I uh, honestly, my 5 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: stomach is I'm a wreck waiting for them to post 6 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: their opinion and one of the most important cases for 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Native land and treaty rights in half a century. I'm 8 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: a mess, oh man, knowing their decision could determine the 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: land rights of five tribes in Oklahoma, including mine. Come 10 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: on load, it's nine to one am. Okay, my great 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: view Oklahoma. Who wrote it? Got in this episode? I'm 12 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: going to walk you through what that opinion said and 13 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: what it means for tribes in eastern Oklahoma. But first 14 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: I need to tell you the story of how we 15 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: got here. On January fourth, right after the new year, 16 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: hundreds of people filed into the auditorium at River Sperit 17 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: Casino in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 18 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: My fellow Skogi Cree Nation, brothers and sisters, as we 19 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: gather here today, it's a great honor for me to 20 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: be able to be It was. 21 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: The inauguration of Muskogee Creek Nation's democratically elected chief. One 22 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: of the first speakers was Poet Laureate Joy Harjo, a 23 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: citizen of Muskogie Creek Nation and the first Native American 24 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: to receive that honor. 25 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: We stand together like pine trees leaning into wind, because 26 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: we were here before these times of eroding human spirit, 27 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 3: and will be here after. 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: Muskogee Creek Nation is the fifth largest tribe in the 29 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: United States. Its reservation in eastern Oklahoma spans eleven counties 30 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: and is roughly the size of Connecticut. But this land 31 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: in eastern Oklahoma is not their original homeland. 32 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: When we stand together, we remember we come from those 33 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: who kept moving through test of history. 34 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: Until the eighteen thirties, Muskoki people lived in what is 35 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: now the southeastern corner of the United States. After the 36 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: Indian Removal Act, the US military rounded up Muskogee citizens 37 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: by gunpoint and forced them on a death march to 38 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: Oklahoma in what is now called the Trail of Tears. 39 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 4: Our ancestors survived the world's worst act in the country's history, 40 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 4: our force removal. 41 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: This is newly elected Principal Chief David Hill. 42 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 4: Our ancestors survived broken promises, broken treaties and broken intend 43 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 4: to raise our Muskogee people from history. Yet your ancestors persevered. 44 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 4: We the Muskoge Nation, are the outcome of the strength 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 4: and the resiliency of those who came before us. 46 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: When Muscogee people were removed to Indian Country, they were 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: promised this land would be theirs forever. But for over 48 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: a century Oklahoma pushed those treaty rates aside. Last week, 49 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: all that changed. 50 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 4: The Muscogee Creek Nation will remain resolute, stand firm again. 51 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 4: It's attempt to weaken our nation, whether it's at the 52 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 4: state Capitol or before the US Supreme Court in Washington, 53 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 4: d c. As a nation, we have nurtured what was 54 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 4: given to us by our creators and our ancestors. In 55 00:03:55,400 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 4: today's modern world, our resiliency continues. 56 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: You're listening to This Land, a podcast about broken promises, 57 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: tribal land and murder from Cricket Media. I'm your host, 58 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: Rebecca Nagel, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Last summer, we brought 59 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: you the story of one court case posed to determine 60 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: the future of half the land in Oklahoma and the 61 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: treaty rights of five tribes. Since then, so much has happened. 62 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: Let me fill you in. In twenty eighteen, the Supreme 63 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 1: Court heard the case of Patrick Murphy, a man sentenced 64 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: to death by the state of Oklahoma for murder. Murphy 65 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: claimed Oklahoma didn't have jurisdiction to prosecute him because the 66 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: crime occurred on the reservation of his tribe, Muskogee Creek Nation. 67 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: Oklahoma claimed that reservation no no longer existed. Last June, 68 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court was scheduled to issue its decision, but 69 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: then it didn't happen. 70 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 5: At the end of the term. As you know and 71 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 5: your listeners know, the court ended up not deciding it 72 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 5: and kicking it over for reargument. 73 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: This is Ian gershen Gorn, Patrick Murphy's lawyer. 74 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 5: And then, in a very unusual situation, having kicked it 75 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 5: over for reargument, the court didn't schedule it for reargument, 76 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 5: didn't schedule it in October, didn't schedule it in November. 77 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: But in December the Court made a shocking announcement. 78 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 2: The US Supreme Court is scheduled to hear in Oklahoma 79 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: man's appeal today after he said his case should not 80 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: have been tried in state court. 81 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: They decided to hear a totally different case. 82 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 6: In nineteen ninety seven, Jim C. McGirt was convicted and 83 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 6: sent to prison for the rest of his life for 84 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 6: raping his wife's four year old granddaughter. The rape McGirt 85 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 6: committed happened within the boundaries of Greek Nations historic territory. 86 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: McGirr is also a tribal citizen of Seminal Nation of Oklahoma. 87 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: His alleged crime and Patrick Murphy's are both egregious, but 88 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: states don't have jurisdiction over crimes committed by Indians on 89 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: Indian land. Only tribes and the federal government do. 90 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 5: Mister McGirr, having learned of the Murphy case in the 91 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 5: Tenth Circuit and the victory there, with the help of 92 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 5: fellow inmates so called jailhouse lawyers, filed a pro sey 93 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 5: handwritten petition in the Oklahoma State Court. He lost in 94 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 5: the state court, and then he filed the handwritten pro 95 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 5: se cert petition in the Supreme Court. 96 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: And on December thirteenth, twenty nineteen, the Supreme Court announced 97 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: they would hear his case. 98 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 5: So he didn't have a lawyer up until and through 99 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 5: his Supreme Court cert. 100 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: Petition, that lawyer became Ian Gershenngorn. But if the Supreme 101 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: Court was already deciding this issue with Murphy, why would 102 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: they choose to hear a second and basically identical case. 103 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: If you remember, in Murphy, Justice Gorsich recused himself because 104 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: he had dealt with the case in the lower court. 105 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: So the Supreme Court was down to just eight justices, 106 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: an even number that seems to have left them with 107 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: a tie vote. 108 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 5: What the Court was doing was looking for another case 109 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 5: that presented the same legal issue, but would do so 110 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 5: in a context in which Justice Gorsich was not recused. 111 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: Which brings the total number of justices back up to nine. 112 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: So the case that would ultimately decide native land and 113 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: treaty rights in our state became McGirt via Oklahoma. 114 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 7: We'll hear argument first this morning, Case eighteen ninety five 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 7: twenty six McGirt versus Oklahoma. 116 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: This is Chief Justice Roberts speaking on a conference call. 117 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: Like all our lives, the Supreme Court's term was disrupted 118 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: by the coronavirus pandemic. The transition to at home hearings 119 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: came with a few awkward moments. 120 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 8: Thank you, counsel, Justice Gorswitch. 121 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: But it also made history for the first time ever 122 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: the public could listen live. That Monday morning, I was 123 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: sitting at my desk with c SPAN open on my computer. 124 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: It felt like everyone in Indian country was tuned in. 125 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: Angel Ellis, Creek citizen and reporter for Muskogi Media, the 126 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: tribe's newspaper, was listening from her home in Okumulgi County. 127 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: I was watching it online and I had my headphones 128 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: on and then staring at my computer screen. Occasionally I 129 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: start talking to my computer screen and my kids look 130 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: at me, like, what was mom gone crazy? Or she just, 131 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: you know, kind of having a rant. It was kind 132 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 2: of strange to be watching people talk about your tribe 133 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: and components of their history, and maybe they do or 134 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: maybe they don't always understand. It was a really surreal experience. 135 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 9: I felt like I was experiencing history and my dining 136 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:21,079 Speaker 9: room table. 137 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 7: Mister Chief Justice, and may have pleased the court. 138 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: This is Ian Gershngorn making his opening statement. 139 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 8: The decision below must be reversed because the text makes 140 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 8: clear that Congress never terminated the Creek Reservation and never 141 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 8: transferred federal criminal jurisdiction to Oklahoma. 142 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: For all the different facets of this case, the legal 143 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: question presented to the Supreme Court is actually quite simple. 144 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: Did Congress ever pass a law that ended the reservation 145 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: Muskogee Creek Nation citizen and Federal Indian law professor Lauren 146 00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: King says no. 147 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 10: Congress set goals for the negotiators going out to Creek 148 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 10: country in eighteen ninety three. It told them to seek session. 149 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: But when those. 150 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 10: Agents returned, they informed Congress that the Creek refused to 151 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 10: ceede any portion of their land. And so when Congress 152 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 10: finally acted, it chows a lotment, not session, and use 153 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 10: the precise language the Court has already held in numerous 154 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 10: cases is insufficient to disestablish the reservation. 155 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: King as the chair of the Native American Law practice 156 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: group at the law firm Foster Garvey, and while she 157 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: is an expert in this area, she spoke to us 158 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: as a citizen, not as a representative of her tribe. 159 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 10: The test of whether Congress has broken the United States 160 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,559 Speaker 10: promises has not been met here, and that means our 161 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 10: reservation still exists. Any other result would require the Supreme 162 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 10: Court not only stepping out of its authority and legislating 163 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 10: from the bench, but yet again breaking a promise to 164 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 10: the Muscogee Creek Nation after after all that we've already 165 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 10: been through. 166 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: Last year, the state tried to get around this question 167 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: by arguing that even though there wasn't a specific law 168 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: where Congress ended the reservation, that was still what Congress 169 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: intended to do. But in McGirt, Oklahoma came back with 170 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: something totally different. Here is Solicitor General Mansein Haney. 171 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 11: Thank you, mister Keith Justice, and may please the court. 172 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 11: Oklahoma has jurisdiction over the eastern half of the state 173 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 11: because it never was reservation land. 174 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: Now Oklahoma is saying the reservation never existed in the 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: first place. So what land rights is Oklahoma proposing? Muskogee 176 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: Creek Nation had after their multiple treaties with the United States. 177 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: According to their solicitor general, it was what's called a 178 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: dependent Indian community, basically tribal citizens living on something other 179 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: than a reservation. It's an idiosyncratic interpretation of the law, 180 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: and during oral arguments, no one was really buying it. 181 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: Even the federal government, which argued against the tribes alongside Oklahoma, 182 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 1: didn't agree. Here's their lawyer, Edwin Needler in in exchange 183 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: with Justice sodomyor. 184 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 12: I haven't figured out whether you've accepted the Oklahoma's suggestion 185 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 12: about the dependent Indian community exception or argument. Are you 186 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 12: endorsing that argument? 187 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 11: No? 188 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 8: Not in terms we're not. 189 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 10: It makes you kind of laugh king again because the 190 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 10: attorney is put into a difficult position where he's asked 191 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 10: by a justice do you agree? And so he has 192 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 10: to say in an eloquent, intactful way that he doesn't agree. 193 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: So if Oklahoma scrapped its original argument and its new 194 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: argument was basically dead on arrival, doesn't that mean an 195 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: easy win for the tribes? You would think so. But 196 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 1: during oral arguments, the laws and the text weren't the 197 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: only things weighing on the justice's minds. They kept coming 198 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: back to the potential consequences of the case, the scariest 199 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: one being the idea that past convictions would automatically get 200 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: thrown out. 201 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 7: What makes this. 202 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 12: Chase hard is if there have been hundreds, hundreds of prosecutions, 203 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 12: some very heinous offenses of the state law. 204 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: That's Justice ginsburg Man Singhani was ready to affirm her fears. 205 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 11: Let me put some some solid numbers on this. We 206 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 11: have currently over seventeen hundred inmates whose crimes were committed 207 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 11: in the former Indian Territory who identify as Native Americans, 208 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 11: so the state presumptively would not have jurisdiction over those 209 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,359 Speaker 11: people would have to release them. 210 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: Oklahoma has thrown out wildly different numbers in the history 211 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: of these two cases. But here's what's interesting. They have 212 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: never provided any public record of where those numbers came from. 213 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 5: One of the most frustrating pieces of the argument and 214 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 5: of the briefing was that Oklahoma and the Solicitor General's 215 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 5: office never provided any backing for any of the numbers 216 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 5: that they came up with. 217 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,479 Speaker 1: This is Ian Gershenngorn. 218 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 5: Again, whatever data they had, they hadn't given it to 219 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 5: the court. They hadn't given it to us. It had 220 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 5: not been subject to adversarial testing. 221 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: Curious about how accurate these claims were, last fall, I 222 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: decided to create a public record myself, with the help 223 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: of a paralegal, I sent open records requests to the 224 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: counties that would be impacted by the Supreme Court's decision. Hi, 225 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: I was calling I'm trying to send an email to 226 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: you guys, and the email that was listed on the 227 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: website bounced. I tried sending it. We looked up trial 228 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: and Appellate court dockets, got arrest information from police departments 229 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: and county courthouses, and spent months crunching the numbers. 230 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, am, I have just called. 231 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: I think we just spoke, and so I emailed it 232 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: to at gmail dot com and that also bounced. Our 233 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: main source of data came from the Oklahoma Department of Corrections. 234 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 6: Thank you for your patience while holding, Please continue holding. 235 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 5: We'll be with you in a moment. 236 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: They sent us a list of one thousand, eight hundred 237 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: and eighty seven Native inmates incarcerated for offenses that occurred 238 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: in a county within the treaty territory of one of 239 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: the five tribes. This is the total number of people 240 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 1: that could possibly be impacted by the Supreme Court's decision. 241 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: But who actually qualifies for a new trial is more complicated, 242 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: not because of any laws about reservations, but because of 243 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: the laws governing the criminal appeals process. Ironically, the law 244 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: that applies here also comes from Oklahoma. In response to 245 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City bombing, Congress passed the Anti Terrorism and 246 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: Effective Death Penalty Act in nineteen ninety six. The rules 247 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: that created are pretty technical, but basically, if you're convicted 248 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: in state court, and you either lose your appeal or 249 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: decide not to appeal, you have a year to petition 250 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: the federal courts to hear your case. After that, it's 251 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: too late. Here is Matthew Fletcher, law professor at Michigan 252 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: State University and citizen of Grand Traverse Bay, Band of 253 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: Ottawa and Chippewa Indians. 254 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 13: If you don't raise your jurisdictional claim early on in 255 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 13: your criminal case, you lose it forever. Even if it 256 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 13: means that you spend fifty years in jail from a 257 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 13: court that didn't have jurisdiction over you, you lose that 258 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 13: right to make that claim. 259 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: Given that strict statue of limitations, how many people would qualify? 260 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: We couldn't look up the appeals record of all one thousand, 261 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: eight hundred and eighty seven people. So we decided to 262 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: examine four groups. Everyone convicted of first degree murder or rape, 263 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: everyone with death or life sentences, and a sample group 264 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: of people who would get out in about five years. 265 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: Of the over three hundred inmates we researched, less than 266 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: ten percent would qualify for federal habeas relief. Less than 267 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: ten percent. So, while Oklahoma says, so we're talking. 268 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 11: To here about potentially around thirty over three thousand inmates 269 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 11: we may have to turn over. 270 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 1: My research showed the overwhelming majority wouldn't even qualify for 271 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: a new federal trial. I actually published these findings before 272 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: the oral arguments in the Atlantic, which is why I 273 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: was surprised to hear Oklahoma's lawyer, sir, go back to 274 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: these wacky numbers. 275 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 10: Here's King again, the numbers that Oklahoma kind of spouted 276 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 10: out at oral argument. I would call this kind of 277 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 10: bar napkin math. 278 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: The court wasn't just worried about Oklahoma losing jurisdiction, they 279 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: were also concerned about tribes gaining it, specifically over all 280 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: the non native people who live in eastern Oklahoma. 281 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 8: Well, what would you say to those people if we 282 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 8: decide this case in your favor? Won't they be surprised 283 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 8: to learn that they are living on a reservation? 284 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: This is justice? 285 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 8: Alito, am, I correct that more than ninety percent of 286 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 8: the people who live in the area directly affected by 287 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 8: this case are not members of the Creek tribe. 288 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: Alito is basically saying, how could there possibly be a 289 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: reservation on land where the majority of residents are not 290 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: Native Tavannah chimed in. Racial demographics was the topic of 291 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: almost every question he asked. As Sletcher puts it. 292 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 13: Justice Kavanaugh seemed obsessed with the year eighteen ninety. 293 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 7: Given the demographics as of eighteen ninety. My understanding is 294 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 7: that as of eighteen ninety, so it was already predominantly 295 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 7: non Indian. By eighteen ninety, Indian territory was predominantly white. 296 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: Kavanaugh seems to be saying, Look, the area was majority 297 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: white in eighteen ninety, so Congress couldn't have intended for 298 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: the tribe to maintain their reservation. And since the area 299 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: is still majority white, you know what that means. Kavanaugh 300 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: isn't the only federal judge who thinks this way. 301 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 13: Every time you would see a brief in a tribal 302 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 13: jurisdiction case, the brief really doesn't even argue the law, 303 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 13: just says, come on, how could you possibly let Indian 304 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 13: tribes have jurisdiction over the white man? Seriously, that's the 305 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 13: whole thrust of the argument, and they win ninety percent 306 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 13: of the time. 307 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: At nine am, Oklahoma time on Thursday, July ninth, the 308 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: Supreme Court of the United States posted their decision in 309 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: McGirt Va, Oklahoma, Oky, Margaret Vie, Oklahoma. I clicked on 310 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: the PDF and started scrolling who wrote it? 311 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 12: Got Oh? 312 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: Wait wait For half a second, in my overwhelm, I 313 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 1: thought maybe I had read something wrong. I mean, could 314 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: this really be true? 315 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 14: Yeah? 316 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: It was. We won. When Lauren King woke up that morning, 317 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: her phone was blowing up. 318 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 10: It was a string of text messages. 319 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: I spoke to her a few hours later. She told 320 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: me what it was like to read the decision for 321 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: the first time. 322 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 10: I ran to my computer and I pulled up the decision. 323 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 10: I skipped past the syllabus and I read that part 324 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 10: on page one, and I just I can't read it 325 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 10: without crying. 326 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 2: And I just started crying. 327 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 10: And I read through the rest of the decision and 328 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 10: it's just more tears, more tears. 329 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: Could you read that opening paragraph that Corsets wrote? Yeah? 330 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 10: On the far end of the Trail of Tears was 331 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 10: a promise. Forced to leave their ancestral lands in Georgia 332 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 10: and Alabama, the Creek Nation received assurances that their new 333 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 10: lands in the West would be secure forever. In exchange 334 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 10: for seeding all their land east of the Mississippi River, 335 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 10: the US government agreed by treaty that the Creek country 336 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 10: west of the Mississippi shall be solemnly guaranteed to the 337 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 10: Creek Indians. Today we're asked whether the land and these 338 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 10: treaties promised remains an Indian reservation for purposes of federal 339 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 10: criminal law, because Congress has not said otherwise, we hold 340 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 10: the government to its word. 341 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: How did you feel reading that. 342 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 10: The tears were streaming down and throughout the opinion because 343 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 10: he says so many things that we know in our 344 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 10: hearts is true in the law, and it's so often 345 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 10: not reflected in the court decisions. I had to kind 346 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 10: of wonder to myself, you know, why is why am 347 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 10: I so emotional here? But it's happened time and again 348 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 10: that courts just seem to want to divest tribal people 349 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 10: of their rights, and they manufacture these new creative interpretive 350 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 10: rules and other pretexts to get them there. And you 351 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 10: saw it in the dissent. You see four out of 352 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 10: the nine justices that want to create a new rule 353 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 10: to get them to where they want to be. So 354 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 10: Indian people have lost so much as a result of 355 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 10: this creativity from the court. And today the Court didn't 356 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 10: accept Oklahoma's in the United States, invitation to do that 357 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 10: yet again to Indian people, and to see the words written. 358 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: What we always knew and felt. 359 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 10: There's not words to describe how meaningful that is. 360 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: So you had faith the last time we talked that 361 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg would side with your tribe. But to 362 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: be honest, I had my doubts. Why do you think 363 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: Ginsburg voted the way that she did today? 364 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 10: I agree with you that she probably was the swing vote. 365 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 10: That was my prediction, as well as that she would 366 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 10: be the deciding vote which way the five to. 367 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: Four would go. 368 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 10: And she has a past history of ruling against the 369 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 10: tribes in some very important cases. And I think maybe 370 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 10: what held the day for her she seemed to be 371 00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 10: concerned about the practical consequences, was the fact that on 372 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 10: the ground, the Mescogye Treek nation already has a lot 373 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 10: of agreements in place with other jurisdictions and has a 374 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 10: long history of cooperating with the state, and so those practical. 375 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,479 Speaker 1: Concerns are ameliorated by that. 376 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 10: And so maybe if I was a fly on the wall, 377 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 10: that that would have been the thing to get her 378 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 10: to the majority. At the end of the day. 379 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: Though Ginsburg was arguably the real swing vote, it was 380 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: not her name that dominated headlines about the case. 381 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 14: Justice Neil Gorsich wrote the majority opinion. 382 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 6: Justice Gorsich joined justices. 383 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: In a five to four decision. Judge Gorsuch sided with 384 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: the court's liberal wing. Justice Neil Gorsich, a conservative justice, 385 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,719 Speaker 1: a Trump appointee, not only sided with the tribe but 386 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: authored one of the most pro tribal decisions in the 387 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 1: history of the court. How did that happen? 388 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 5: Justice Gorsich is very much a textualist. 389 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,119 Speaker 1: This is Ian Gershenngorn again, ce mcgertz lawyer. I spoke 390 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: to him by phone the day after the decision came down. 391 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 5: Then our argument was the treaties created the reservation as 392 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 5: plainly as they could, and there was no statute from 393 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 5: Congress that disestablished the reservation or changed that. And given that, 394 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 5: that's the end of the story. And that was how 395 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 5: Justice Gorsuch saw it. 396 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: What's striking to me is how how what he does 397 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: is really just apply the law and the statute. Could 398 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,439 Speaker 1: you talk about how that is actually ground breaking in 399 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: federal Indian law. 400 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 5: Well, first, let me talk about how it's not groundbreaking 401 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 5: in any other area. I mean, nobody thinks if Congress 402 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 5: passes a statute that says X, that if a state 403 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 5: chooses to act in a different way, and say, oh 404 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 5: it actually the statute says why that the court would 405 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 5: buy that right? And so you know the real question 406 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 5: in our minds was, is there some reason to think 407 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 5: there's a different rule when the statutes happened to govern Indians? 408 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 5: And you know, when you phrase it like that, it 409 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 5: seems like the answer, you know, should be pretty straightforward. 410 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: The last thing I want to know is just practically 411 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: what happens next for mister Murphy and mister McGirt. 412 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 5: The most immediate thing from mister Murphy's perspective is that 413 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 5: he no longer faces the death penalty. The question about 414 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 5: how the case proceeds then depends on what the US 415 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 5: Attorney's Office, who's the federal prosecutor, would like to do. 416 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 5: And so you know, we'll see what happens with them. 417 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: Talking to King and Gersh and Gorn answered most of 418 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: the questions that I had about the case, but there 419 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: was one question particularly salient to me that remained unanswered. 420 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 1: The decision affirm the reservation of Msco Creek Nation but 421 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: what about the other four tribes including mine? For that 422 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 1: I called fellow Cherokee Nations citizen and legal scholar Stacy Leeds. 423 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: She worked on one of the briefs for the case. 424 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 14: So in the majority opinion that he authored, it was 425 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 14: very narrowly tailored to the facts before the court. And 426 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 14: so it was this question about Muscogee Creek Nations boundaries. 427 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 14: I think conventional wisdom and the descent all think that 428 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 14: it does apply to all five tribes. The Attorney General's 429 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 14: office put out a statement saying that the federal, state 430 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 14: and tribal authorities would work together and you know, chart 431 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 14: this new course. And then, of course all of the 432 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 14: five tribes also put out their individual or collective statements 433 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 14: to that effect. So I think that everyone presumes on 434 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 14: the ground that this is a decision legally binding on 435 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 14: the Muscogee Creek Nation, but applicable to the five tribes 436 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 14: in eastern Oklahoma. 437 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: And so, so are you telling me that this morning 438 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: I woke up on a reservation. 439 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 14: You have always been on a reservation, sister. It's just 440 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 14: that the people around you all recognize that. Now. 441 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: So now that Muscogie Creek Nation one, what happens, you 442 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: know what is happening on the ground with convictions, with 443 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: future prosecutions, with this huge question of criminal jurisdiction. 444 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 14: Tribal courts are here, they are staffed up. They're going 445 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 14: to have to ramp up their capacity. But it's not 446 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 14: as if they're going to be created whole cloth out 447 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 14: of nothing, right. You know, people who practice law tend 448 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 14: to be licensed in the state of Oklahoma and the 449 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 14: Creek Nation and the Cherokee Nation, and the attorneys all 450 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 14: swat between all the judges and all of the different jurisdictions, 451 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 14: and the people who are doing this in the trenches, 452 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 14: they're not concerned about this at all. So it just 453 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 14: means that they're going to have more cases in one 454 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 14: court and less cases than the other, but they're still 455 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 14: going to be practicing the same kind of law that 456 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 14: they always have. 457 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: Angel Ellis was in the newsroom a Muskokie Media when 458 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: the decision came down. Though she had been following the 459 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: case and reporting on it for years, she wasn't prepared 460 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: for how the good news would hit home. 461 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 9: I feel like if I was watching this like for 462 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 9: any other indigenous group in the world, any other if 463 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 9: I seen this play out, and I knew the impact. 464 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 9: I would feel the same way because it's like this 465 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 9: is has been the standard all over the world for 466 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 9: Indigenous people. It's been stomp trod, move over and just railroading. 467 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 9: And to finally have just a little bit of information 468 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 9: to go our way has made all the difference, Like 469 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 9: in the way you carry yourself, you know, like it's 470 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 9: not a matter of pity or need. We know who 471 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 9: we are, but we just don't want to fight to 472 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 9: be that way anymore. So to get one win can 473 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 9: fuel you up and fill your cup long enough to 474 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 9: keep going. 475 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that never happens, not hardly at all. 476 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 9: And I don't think that Indigenous people ask a lot, 477 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 9: Like it's not a huge ask. I've never met anybody 478 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 9: in my community who thinks that they're owed a whole 479 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 9: lot of anything. Like they're very much do it yourself, 480 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 9: pull yourself up by the bootstraps. They've had to be. 481 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 9: The tenacity is there. They just don't want you to 482 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 9: choke them out while they're trying, you know. That's it, Like, 483 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 9: don't step on me on my way, that's it. Like, 484 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,560 Speaker 9: And I think that most people get that respect, you know, 485 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 9: or are willing to give it in the world. It's 486 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 9: just that these mechanisms that are set in place that 487 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 9: want to, you know, take advantage, take the land, take 488 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 9: the resources, that's where the people get crushed. And so 489 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 9: to have other people from other communities stand up for 490 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 9: that is an incredible thing. 491 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: Really, if your ancestors were alive today to see this happen, 492 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: what do you think they would say? 493 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 9: It has been entrenched in us for generations and generations 494 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 9: in my family that no matter what, the rest of 495 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 9: the world sees you as you are Muskogie and that's 496 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 9: inside you. And so I think that they would just 497 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 9: kind of be high five in us all and saying 498 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 9: it's about time that the rest of the world acknowledge too. 499 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: During the eighteen twenty eight presidential election, candidate Andrew jackson 500 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: slogan was the will of the people. As the first 501 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: populist president, he campaigned on the promise of removing all 502 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 1: tribes to west of the Mississippi, but when it came 503 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: time to get his signature policy through Congress, the votes 504 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: were tight. The Indian Removal Act sailed through the Senate, 505 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: but not the House of Representatives, where northern states had 506 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,479 Speaker 1: more votes. White Northern Women and one of the first 507 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: political actions led by women in the US, organized a 508 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: massive petition drive and nearly defeated the bill, but by 509 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: political horse trading, Jackson squeaked it through. On May twenty sixth, 510 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty, the Indian Removal Act passed the House one 511 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: hundred and two to ninety seven, a margin of just 512 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: five votes. Its passage laid the groundwork for the removal 513 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: of Southeastern tribes from their homelands to Indian Territory in 514 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: what can only be described as a death march. Andrew 515 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: Jackson's government promised in this bitter exchange that these new 516 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: lands would belong to our tribes for forever. That promise 517 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: would be broken time and again in creative, illegal, and 518 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: brutal ways. Sadly, it's not that surprising. History repeats itself, 519 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: as the saying goes, But on Thursday, for once, it 520 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: didn't by the same knife's edge as the policy that 521 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 1: led to our removal. This time the tide went our 522 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: way by one vote. The court upheld what our tribes 523 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: have always held to be true. The legal right to 524 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: our land never ended, and despite the grave injustices of history, 525 00:33:45,200 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 1: we are still here. This Land is written and hosted 526 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: by me Rebecca Nagel, citizen of Cherokee Nation, from Crooked Media. 527 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: Sarah geismer Lyra Smith and Tanya Soominator are the executive producers. 528 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: Sydney Rapp is our fact checker. Our theme song is 529 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: composed by Jared Tate, citizen of Chickasaw Nation. Podcast art 530 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: by Kelly Gonzalez, citizen of Cherokee Nation. Additional production support 531 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: from Alison Falsetta. Thank you so much for listening.