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Speaker 1: Hello, it's Richard mclin smith here. Unfortunately, due to a

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Speaker 1: slight bout of illness, I've not been able to get

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Speaker 1: this week's episode ready in time. The show will return

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Speaker 1: as per normal next week, but in the meantime, here's

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Speaker 1: an episode from the vaults. It starts back in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties in Delhi, India, when three year old Shanty

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Speaker 1: Devi becomes convinced she's lived another life before her parents

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Speaker 1: assume it's just a childish game. Today, many consider her

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Speaker 1: story to be nothing less than absolute proof of reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: This is unexplained Season three episode ten, Here is Always

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Speaker 1: Somewhere Else. On January eighteenth, nineteen oh two, in the

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Speaker 1: Indian town of Mattaa, ninety miles southeast of Delhi, a

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Speaker 1: young couple Yagte and chatterbudge By, celebrate the birth of

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Speaker 1: a baby girl. Ten years later, the child, whom they

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Speaker 1: named Lugdi, is given up for marriage to a local

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Speaker 1: shopkeeper named keddinat Chowbie. After many years of marriage, Lugdi

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Speaker 1: fell pregnant, but was devastated to learn only a week

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Speaker 1: before she was due to give birth that the baby

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Speaker 1: had died. Some years later, by then twenty three, Lugdi

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Speaker 1: was overjoyed to discover she was pregnant once more, but

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Speaker 1: again there were complications. Fearing for his wife and unborn child,

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Speaker 1: Kdinat rushed them to the much better equipped hospital in

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Speaker 1: the city of Agra, thirty miles away. It was there

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Speaker 1: the next day, on September twenty fifth, nineteen twenty five,

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Speaker 1: that Lugdi gave birth to a healthy baby boy named Nabonite.

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Speaker 1: For Lugdi, however, the pregnancy had taken a hefty toll.

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Speaker 1: She would not live to see the child she had

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Speaker 1: brought into the world, dying nine days later. On the

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Speaker 1: morning of October fourth, five years later, and roughly six

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Speaker 1: hundred miles to the south, in the coastal town of Dandy,

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Speaker 1: a gentle looking man, modestly dressed in a pristine white

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Speaker 1: doughty and shawl, reaches down into the wet mud at

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Speaker 1: his feet, lifting a handful of it into the air.

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Speaker 1: He turns to the fifty thousand strong crowd of men

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Speaker 1: and women who have waited twenty six days for this

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Speaker 1: very moment, and declared, with this, I am shaking the

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Speaker 1: foundations of the British Empire. Next, the man filtered salt

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Speaker 1: granules from the mud and placed them in a pot

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Speaker 1: of boiling sea water. He watched with a smile as

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Speaker 1: the water slowly began to evaporate, liberating the salt from

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Speaker 1: its bonds, until with the water having all but vanished,

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Speaker 1: the salt was all that remained at the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the pan. The man was Mahandas Karamchant Gandhi, perhaps better

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Speaker 1: known as Mahatma Gandhi. With this powerful, peaceful gesture, Gandhi,

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Speaker 1: who had walked for twenty six days to get to

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Speaker 1: the coast, had shone a light on a greedy and

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Speaker 1: restrictive salt tax that had been imposed on the people

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Speaker 1: of India by British colonial powers. As with all empires,

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Speaker 1: there comes a time when the ruling powers are no

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Speaker 1: longer able to reconcile the myth of their great nation

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Speaker 1: with the truth of what it is to sustain it.

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Speaker 1: And so it would prove with Great Britons. With Gandhi's

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Speaker 1: iconic Salt March proving an irresistible catalyst, opposition to British

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Speaker 1: rule among both the local Indian population and the British

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Speaker 1: public intensified. Though at the time the empire's Viceroy Lord Irwin,

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Speaker 1: equipped that Gandhi's Salt campaign would be unlikely to keep

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Speaker 1: him up all night. Only seventeen years later, the Indian

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Speaker 1: nation achieved independence. After the Salt March, Gandhi's position as

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Speaker 1: a leading statesman and as the head of the Indian

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Speaker 1: independence movement had been thoroughly secured. As such, his trust

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Speaker 1: and judgment was often sought on a number of wide

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Speaker 1: ranging events and incidences, provided they were of sufficient importance.

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Speaker 1: None were quite as strange, perhaps as that which was

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Speaker 1: presented to him in nineteen thirty five regarding a peculiar

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Speaker 1: case of a young girl who claimed to have already

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Speaker 1: died ten years previously. You're listening to Unexplained, and I'm

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Speaker 1: Richard McLean Smith. Born in December nineteen twenty six, Shanty

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Speaker 1: Devy rarely cried as a baby, despite living in the

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Speaker 1: intense bustle of inner city Delhi. Having grown into a

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Speaker 1: shy and quiet toddler, it was all the more surprising

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Speaker 1: when the young girl became suddenly agitated one afternoon. This

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Speaker 1: wasn't her home, she complained to her perplexed mother. My

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Speaker 1: house was much bigger, she said. Shanty's mother naturally assuming

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Speaker 1: her daughter to be playing a game, did her best

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Speaker 1: to ignore her strange proclamations. It was far harder, however,

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Speaker 1: for her to ignore Shanty's insistence that she wasn't her

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Speaker 1: mother at all. Her real mother lived in the city

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Speaker 1: of Mattra, over ninety miles away, as did her husband

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Speaker 1: and sisters. For the next year, Shanty continued to talk

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Speaker 1: about another life, claiming that her name was in fact Lugdi.

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Speaker 1: One evening, at the dinner table, after her mother had

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Speaker 1: dished out the food, Shanty screwed up her face and

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Speaker 1: pushed her plate away. It isn't right to eat animals,

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Speaker 1: she said, I won't do it. The now four year

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Speaker 1: old Shanty went on to explain that she and her

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Speaker 1: husband only ate sat for food, a group of foods

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Speaker 1: that pertained to the Hindu modes of existence, consisting only

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Speaker 1: of meat free, energy enriching foods. Only Shanty's parents weren't Hindus,

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Speaker 1: nor could they fathom how a four year old child

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Speaker 1: could have learnt such a thing. A few years later,

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Speaker 1: with Shanty showing no sign of dropping the charade, she

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Speaker 1: explained blankly one morning that she had died giving birth

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Speaker 1: to a child, and that she wanted to see her

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Speaker 1: husband again. But when Shanty's mother asked who he was,

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Speaker 1: she would say only that when she knew him, he

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Speaker 1: sold fabrics and that he owned a shop near the

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Speaker 1: Duar Kadije temple in Matra. Though Shanty's parents try to

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Speaker 1: reassure themselves that their daughter's behavior is only a phase,

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Speaker 1: it is hard not to be concerned. It is said

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Speaker 1: in the Vedic Scriptures, the most sacred text of Hinduism,

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Speaker 1: that any child who could remember a past life was

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Speaker 1: destined to die young. Growing increasingly unsettled, Shanty's parents forbade

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Speaker 1: her from talking any more about her past life, but

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Speaker 1: Shanty never lost sight of her dream to return to

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Speaker 1: her long lost family in Matura. It was some time

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Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty five that Babu Bhushan Chand first heard

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Speaker 1: about Shanty's strange obsession. Chand was a teacher at Shanty's

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Speaker 1: school in the Daria Gang district of Delhi. Being a

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Speaker 1: relative also, he couldn't help but be intrigued. After overhearing

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Speaker 1: the now eight year old girl telling yet another friend

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Speaker 1: how she needed to find a way to get to

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Speaker 1: Matura to visit her husband, determined to see if Shanty

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Speaker 1: was telling the truth. Chand demanded that she tell him

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Speaker 1: the name of her husband. She refused. Chand offered to

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Speaker 1: take her to matter himself if she would only give

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Speaker 1: him his name. The young girl hesitated, explaining that it

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Speaker 1: would not be correct to speak his name, but finally relented.

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Speaker 1: She gestured for Chand to bend down and whispered it

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Speaker 1: into his ear, ca denat Choubi, but that wasn't all.

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Speaker 1: She knew his address as well. Before rushing off to

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Speaker 1: visit the man, Chand suggested they write him a letter

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Speaker 1: first to see if he can help verify her claims. Together,

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Speaker 1: they composed it, putting in everything that Shanty had said

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Speaker 1: that she was once married to a man named Choubi

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Speaker 1: who had owned a fabric shop near the Dewa Kadish

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Speaker 1: temple in Mattera. She added also that one of their

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Speaker 1: homes was painted yellow and that she believed her name

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Speaker 1: to be Lugdi. After posting the letter, Chand waited for

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Speaker 1: almost two weeks before finally receiving a reply. I did

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Speaker 1: have a wife who died named Lugdi, it said, and

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Speaker 1: I have a shop very close to the Duwa Kadish

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Speaker 1: temple and my name is Kennedat Chaubi in matterra Kedanat

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Speaker 1: had barely slept since first receiving Shanty's letter. Having sent

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Speaker 1: his reply to chand he contacted a cousin, Pandit Kanjamaal,

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Speaker 1: who lived in Delhi, and asked him to visit Shanty

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Speaker 1: and her parents on his behalf A few days later,

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Speaker 1: an astounded Pandit sat with the young girl and her

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Speaker 1: parents as she detailed the layout and location of the

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Speaker 1: house that Lugdi used to live in with his cousin,

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Speaker 1: also describing perfectly the streets close to it that she

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Speaker 1: had worn many times before. When she asked about the

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Speaker 1: health of her son, a stunned Pandit can only mutter

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Speaker 1: that he is doing well. When Kadinat's cousin bids farewell

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Speaker 1: to Shanty later that evening, it is with the absolute

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Speaker 1: conviction that he had just spoken to Kdenat's deceased wife.

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Speaker 1: The following day, he traveled to his cousin's home to

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Speaker 1: deliver the incredible news. It was only a few days later,

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Speaker 1: on November twelfth, that Pandit returned to Shanty's home along

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Speaker 1: with Kdinat and his new wife, as well as ten

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Speaker 1: year old Nabonite, the son that Lugti had died after

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Speaker 1: giving birth to. When they arrived, Shanty's mother, who was

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Speaker 1: clearly troubled by the situation, was there to greet them

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Speaker 1: at the door, explained that Shanty had not yet returned

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Speaker 1: from school, but invited them inside, none the less to

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Speaker 1: sit and wait for her. When the young girl returned

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Speaker 1: home half an hour later, it had been decided that

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Speaker 1: they would try and catch her out, having been informed

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Speaker 1: that more people had come to speak to her about

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Speaker 1: her supposed past life. Shanty was led into the living

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Speaker 1: room and introduced to a few of the guests, including Kadenat,

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Speaker 1: who was introduced as an older brother of Lugdi's, but

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Speaker 1: Shanty was confused. No, she said, that is my husband.

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Speaker 1: Walking straight up to him, she bowed her head and

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Speaker 1: stood by his side, as was customary for the time.

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Speaker 1: Kdinat could only stare at, dumbstruck at the strangely confident

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Speaker 1: little girl stood beside him. A moment later, Nabonite was

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Speaker 1: shown into the room. At the sight of the young boy,

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Speaker 1: Shanty's eyes widened and began to well up. She rushed

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Speaker 1: toward him and hugged him tightly. My son, she cried,

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Speaker 1: you were my son. Immediately, Shanty turned to her mother

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Speaker 1: and asked her for all her toys to be brought

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Speaker 1: for the young boy, but she refused as she tried

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Speaker 1: to comprehend what exactly was happening before her. Shanty eventually

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Speaker 1: gathered them up herself and offered them to the boy. Later,

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Speaker 1: Shanty's parents watched their daughter leave the house with the

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Speaker 1: chowbees with the creeping sensation that maybe she hadn't been

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Speaker 1: making everything up after all. That afternoon, having taken a

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Speaker 1: trip round the city with Kedanat's family, it was said

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Speaker 1: that Shanty held on to Nabonite's hand the entire time.

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Speaker 1: That evening, the two families gathered again to talk, but

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Speaker 1: something was ailing the young girl. She couldn't stop staring

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Speaker 1: at the jewelry on the arm of Kadenat's wife. It

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Speaker 1: was as if she recognized it. You promised you would

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Speaker 1: never marry again, she said, turning suddenly to Kdenat. The

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Speaker 1: man's eyes turned to the floor. Sensing the awkward shift

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Speaker 1: in the mood, Shanty's father asked his daughter to talk

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Speaker 1: more about the house she had apparently lived in when

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Speaker 1: she was lookedy. The young girl's eyes lit up as

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Speaker 1: she recounted the place in great detail, including how she

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Speaker 1: loved to bathe and relax by the well located in

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Speaker 1: the middle of a grand courtyard in the center of

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Speaker 1: the property. Her apparent recollections drawing tears from Kadenat's eyes

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Speaker 1: at the memories. It was late evening when the Chowbee

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Speaker 1: family left the house, though Shanty was inconsolable. Together, they

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Speaker 1: promised to make arrangements to meet again. It wasn't long

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Speaker 1: before Shanti's extraordinary story reached the media and in turn,

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Speaker 1: Mahatma Gandhi. It has been alleged that Gandhi's interest in

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Speaker 1: the story stemmed as much from political motives as it

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Speaker 1: did from personal interest, being as it was an apparent

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Speaker 1: vindication of the Hindu belief system. Nevertheless, his involvement was

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Speaker 1: hugely significant. Having now met Kdinat, Shanty had only grown

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Speaker 1: more determined to visit her apparent former home in Mattera,

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Speaker 1: But every reference to her past life as Lugdi was

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Speaker 1: just one more break in the hearts of Shanty's parents,

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Speaker 1: who feared their daughter might be lost for ever if

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Speaker 1: they agreed to let her go. It was Gandhy who

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Speaker 1: finally convinced them to let whatever her destiny might be

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Speaker 1: play out. Such was the farraw surrounding the story. Gandhi

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Speaker 1: also organized for a committee of journalists and government ministers

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Speaker 1: to accompany the young girl to Matter to determine for

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Speaker 1: themselves whether her claims were true or not. And so

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Speaker 1: it was that on November twenty fourth, Shanty and her

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Speaker 1: family boarded a train to Matterra, escorted by Gandhy's committee,

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Speaker 1: which included among them, the respected Member of Parliament Deshpandu Goupta.

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Speaker 1: That cool morning, as the train trundled through a green

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Speaker 1: and dusty countryside and a warm, pink haze settled across

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Speaker 1: the land, a quiet eight year old girl gazed absent

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Speaker 1: mindedly out of the window, dreaming of a former life.

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Speaker 1: Having arrived at Mattera station. As the committee disembark, a

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Speaker 1: crowd of thousands are there to greet them, all desperate

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Speaker 1: to see the miracle child. As Shanty is led from

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Speaker 1: the train, the crowd surges forward and a middle aged

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Speaker 1: man steps into her path. Shanty stops after taking a

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Speaker 1: moment to look up at the man. She bows down

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Speaker 1: and touches his feet. Before the man can say anything,

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Speaker 1: Shanty is already back up. Baboo Ramchaubi. She says hello.

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Speaker 1: The man cracks a wide smile and turning back to

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Speaker 1: the crowd, hushes them away to give the child and

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Speaker 1: the committee room to get through. As they push on

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Speaker 1: to the front of the station, one of the committee

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Speaker 1: asks Shanty who the man is, to which she replies,

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Speaker 1: he is my husband's brother. Outside, the girl is led

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Speaker 1: into a tanger, a small horse and cart, where she

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Speaker 1: is joined by Dshbandu Gupta and another committee member, with

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Speaker 1: the others arranging to follow on behind. Much to Gupta's surprise, Shanty,

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Speaker 1: who has never been to matter before, wastes no time

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Speaker 1: in instructing the driver on where to go, telling him

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Speaker 1: to look out for a yellow house. As they make

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Speaker 1: their way through the streets, Shanty points out all the

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Speaker 1: places she remembers and the ones that have changed since

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Speaker 1: Lugdi's time, all of which the astonished driver confirms to

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Speaker 1: be true. Turning into one street flanked by a large,

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Speaker 1: colorful building fronted by a series of delicate arches, Shanty

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Speaker 1: points out the duwak at each temple, and on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the street the shop where her husband worked.

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Speaker 1: Reaching a crossroads. A short time later, she asks the

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Speaker 1: driver to pull over. But I don't understand, she says,

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Speaker 1: as she steps down from the cart. It's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be yellow. The committee members exchange concerned glances as they

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Speaker 1: follow the young girl across the road toward a decidedly

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Speaker 1: white house. Though the colour is wrong, the large crowd

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Speaker 1: of people gathered outside suggests they have indeed come to

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Speaker 1: the right place. Shanty points out two men standing by

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Speaker 1: the entrance as her brother and the brother of her

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Speaker 1: father in law, who both greet her warmly before leading

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Speaker 1: her inside. Moving from room to room, Shanty amazes everyone

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Speaker 1: with her apparent recollection of how the house had been

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Speaker 1: set up when Lugdi had lived there. However, one committee

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Speaker 1: member is unconvinced. After all, wasn't the house of her

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Speaker 1: to be yellow, but it was explained one of the

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Speaker 1: new residents it had been painted over after Lugdi had

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Speaker 1: died that afternoon. As the crowds continue to grow, the

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Speaker 1: eight year old girl from Delhi is hoisted onto the

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Speaker 1: shoulders of one of the committee members before effortlessly guiding

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Speaker 1: them all to the next property. It is the last

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Speaker 1: place that Lugdi had lived and Cadenat's current home. She

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Speaker 1: is especially pleased to find him waiting there for her

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Speaker 1: when she arrives. After being led inside once again, Shanty

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Speaker 1: seems able to recall the layout of the house, but

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Speaker 1: when she moved into the courtyard. Something is wrong the well,

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Speaker 1: says one of the committee members. You said there was

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Speaker 1: a well here that used to bathe beside, but there

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Speaker 1: is not. Without uttering a word, Kedanat walks into the

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Speaker 1: middle of the square and pulls up a large paving slab,

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Speaker 1: inviting the committee members to have a look underneath. It

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Speaker 1: was the well the family had paved over it only

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Speaker 1: a few years ago. Later, having moved up to one

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Speaker 1: of the bedrooms on the second floor, Shanty lets out

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Speaker 1: a short gasp. I remember something, she exclaims, turning to

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Speaker 1: the group under the floor. I hid a money box

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Speaker 1: full of savings for a special occasion just there, she says,

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Speaker 1: pointing to the floor. One of the group pushes at

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Speaker 1: the spot and finds the floorboard to be loose. He

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Speaker 1: pulls it up and, to the amazement of all, reveals

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Speaker 1: a small rusted tin nestled in the space below it.

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Speaker 1: The tin was, however, the girl, disappointed, turns to Kdenat,

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Speaker 1: who can only apologize he had found it some time

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Speaker 1: after Lugdi had died and spent the money on himself.

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Speaker 1: Satisfied they had seen enough for the day, Shanty made

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Speaker 1: one more request that they visit the River Yamuna, where

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Speaker 1: as Lugdi, she had apparently also enjoyed spending lots of

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Speaker 1: her time. After a short ride to the river, Shanty's parents,

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Speaker 1: who had endured so much, already watched with a strange

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Speaker 1: uncertainty as their young daughter gazed out across the water.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly she was running fast along the bank toward a

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Speaker 1: house in the distance. As the committee members tried desperately

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Speaker 1: to keep up, they were relieved to see Shanty stopping

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Speaker 1: outside another home, where a small crowd of people had

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Speaker 1: gathered to meet her. It was Lugdi's parents house, and

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Speaker 1: there standing at the front where Yagti and chatterboush by

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Speaker 1: Lukedi's parents themselves. Shanty already had tears in her eyes

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Speaker 1: as she approached the elderly couple. When her parents arrived

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Speaker 1: moments later, Yagti invited them into the house. As the

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Speaker 1: congregation of committee members and Lugdi's family sat and talked,

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Speaker 1: the young girl's parents can only watch with increasing dread

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Speaker 1: as their daughter, now sitting in Yagti's lap, continued to

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Speaker 1: amaze everyone with her supposed recollections of her life as Lugdi.

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Speaker 1: But although Shanty seems elated to be with her old

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Speaker 1: family again, she is equally struck by a deep melancholy.

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Speaker 1: Turning to Lukedie's mother, she asks, why did he not

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Speaker 1: keep bringing me flowers like you promised? Just like with Kedanat,

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Speaker 1: Yakti can only apologize, holding the girl tighter in her

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Speaker 1: arms as she wipes their tears away. Then comes the

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Speaker 1: moment that Shanty's mother had been most dreading. It was

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Speaker 1: clear that a decision had to be made. Both Lukdi's

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Speaker 1: family and the Chowbees were far more wealthy than Shanty's parents,

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Speaker 1: not to mention of a higher caste, and if it

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Speaker 1: was true that this place really was her home, would

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Speaker 1: it be wrong to deny her the opportunity to live here?

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Speaker 1: Yakti suggests the only fair thing to do is to

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Speaker 1: ask Shanty herself what she wants. Shanty's mother reluctantly agrees,

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Speaker 1: taking her daughter by the hand and trying not to

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Speaker 1: cry as she asks her the devastating question. All in

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Speaker 1: the room are silent as they watched the little girl

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Speaker 1: think on her decision. Then, after a moment's pause, she

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Speaker 1: turns to Luhdi's parents, embraces them one after the other,

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Speaker 1: and asks for forgiveness, telling them quietly through her tears

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Speaker 1: that she had another family. Now, turning back to her parents,

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Speaker 1: Shanty took them each by the hand and led them

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Speaker 1: out of the house. That evening, Shanty Deviy returned to

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Speaker 1: Delhi with her mother and father, escorted by Gandhi's committee members.

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Speaker 1: None were in any doubt that the child they had

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Speaker 1: taken to Matterer was nothing less than the reincarnation of Lukdibai,

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Speaker 1: the young mother who had tragically died over a decade ago.

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Speaker 1: In April the following year, a nine year old Shanty

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Speaker 1: is taken back to Mattera by another group, this time

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Speaker 1: led by prominent journalist since Nihal Singh and the psychologist

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Speaker 1: doctor Indra sen Again, the girl's claims are put to

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Speaker 1: the test, with varying degrees of success. Both men returned

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Speaker 1: to Delhi convinced that her extraordinary claims were true. A

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Speaker 1: few weeks later, doctor Senne arranged for Shanty to undergo

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Speaker 1: a process of hypnotic regression where she is alleged to

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Speaker 1: have documented Lugdibai's journey from death to the moment of

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Speaker 1: her rebirth before later becoming the child Shanty Devi. Soon

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Speaker 1: after this session, doctor Sen learned something else. Although it

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Speaker 1: was true that Shanty had never been to Matterer, not

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Speaker 1: only had Lugdi's husband kedinat Chowby been to Delhi a

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Speaker 1: number of times. One of the places he visited most

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Speaker 1: frequently was a fabric shop directly opposite Shanty's family home,

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Speaker 1: and he had done so since Shanty was only a baby.

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Speaker 1: Either way, for the rest of her life, Shanty Devy,

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Speaker 1: who had become a highly qualified teacher, never wavered in

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Speaker 1: her belief that she had lived a previous life. She

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Speaker 1: would eventually die at the age of sixty one in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, having never married out of respect for

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Speaker 1: her apparent former husband. This episode was written by Richard

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Speaker 1: mc lean Smith unexplained as an Avy Club Productions podcast

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Speaker 1: created by Richard mc lean Smith. All other elements of

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Speaker 1: the podcast, including the music, are also produced by me.

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Speaker 1: Richard mclin Smith unexplained the book and audiobook with stories

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Speaker 1: never before featured on the show, is now available to

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00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 1: buy worldwide. You can purchase from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Waterstones,

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00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: and other bookstores. Please subscribe to and rate the show

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Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and feel free to get

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00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: in touch with any thoughts or ideas regarding the stories

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Speaker 1: you've heard on the show. Perhaps you have an explanation

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00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: of your own you'd like to share. You can find

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Speaker 1: out more at Unexplained podcast dot com and reach us

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Speaker 1: online through Twitter at Unexplained Pod and Facebook at Facebook

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Speaker 1: dot com. Forward Slash Unexplained podcast a