1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast 3 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: I and I'm Tracy Wilson, and we're coming up on 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: the fiftieth anniversary of the Kennedy assassination, which is an 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: event that is often referenced as a pretty pivotal moment 6 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: in American history, and it has spawned certainly endless debate 7 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: about conspiracies and cover ups and what actually happened. And 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: there are an endless array of websites to visit if 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: you love digging into the conspiracy angle. I don't know 10 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: about Tracy. I know I myself have never really been like, 11 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by it, But I'm not one of those 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: people that's really obsessed with the whole thing. When I 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: was a kid, I was really into all kinds of 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: like the true crime kind of conspiracy. Were kids love 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: a question mark? Yeah, I love a not certain angle. Yeah. 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: I remember like plowing through my grandmother's time life books, 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: kinds and subjects along this line. Yeah. I mean. Uh. 18 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: Even though there have been at various points on the 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: curve uh statements that no, no, this was solved, a 20 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 1: lot of people don't believe those statements um or don't 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: adhere to that motive thinking. And so, I mean it's 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: a huge, huge topic, and today we're actually just going 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: to talk about the assassination itself on a pretty fairly 24 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: basic level. We're not going to include all of the 25 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: many facets. We couldn't even begin to dig through all 26 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: of that and all of the pro and anti conspiracy 27 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: evidence in one podcast. I mean, that could be a 28 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: series and has been for some people. Uh, But our 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: focus today is on one of the witnesses to the assassination, 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: and it is a person who remains rather shrouded in 31 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: mystery even fifty years later. Yeah, it's kind of incredible 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: to me that that there can have been someone obviously 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: present at so high profile and events and we're still 34 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: not sure what the story is there. Um So first 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the assassination just in brief, 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: in terms of like broad stroke will hit some detail points, 37 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: kind of a refresher for people who are steeped in 38 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: American history and for our many listeners who are from elsewhere, yeah, 39 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: or even you know, younger listeners and maybe haven't gotten 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: to this yet. Uh. And it's like I said, it's 41 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: a basic rundown. It's by no means comprehensive. We've really 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: paired this down to the elements and details of the 43 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: event that are most relevant to today's topic. So, on 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: November twenty two of nineteen sixty three, US President John F. 45 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Kennedy's presidential motorcade was Indeley Plaza in Dallas, Texas, en 46 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: route to a sold out luncheon at the Trademark where 47 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: the President was to speak, and he was in that 48 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: motorcade when he was fatally shot at about twelve thirty. 49 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: About forty five minutes after the shooting, Dallas Police patrolman J. D. 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: Tippett stopped twenty four year old X Marine Lee Harvey 51 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: Oswald to question him. Oswald fit was basic description of 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: the suspect that the police had been given, and Oswald 53 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: shot and killed him uh At two fifteen. Oswald was 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: then arrested for the shooting of officer Tippett. He was 55 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: apprehended in a theater where he had fled after the shooting, 56 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: and at seven fifteen PM, Oswald was arraigned for Tippet's murder. 57 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: And it actually wasn't until after midnight. At one thirty am, 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: on what was now November twenty three of nineteen sixty three, 59 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: that Oswald was arraigned for the murder of JFK. They 60 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: hadn't determined that he was their suspect until he had 61 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: already been in custody for killing a police officer. While 62 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: Oswald was being transferred from the city jail to the 63 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: county jail on November four, nightclub owner Jack Ruby shot 64 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: and killed the suspect. Ruby's indictment for Oswald's murder was 65 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: two days later on November twenty six, and he was 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: found guilty and sentenced to death on March fourteenth of 67 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four. Jack Ruby ended up dying of cancer 68 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven while he was awaiting new trial 69 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: after an appeal of the conviction. So that's the very 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: short version, in a nutshell, the assassination. There are certainly many, many, many, 71 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,279 Speaker 1: many more details that we could go into, and resources 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: and lots of videos people can watch online. Um As 73 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: many people probably know, Jack Ruby shooting Oswald actually happened 74 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: on live television, so there is footage of it all 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: over the internet. It's not particularly grizsly, thankfully if you're 76 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: sensitive to that, but it is still unsettling to kind 77 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: of see that all unfold in a very chaotic It's 78 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: a little frightening obviously. Um So it's out there if 79 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: you're interested in in more details. Immediately after the shooting 80 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: of JFK, investigators, of course began questioning bystanders, anyone who 81 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: could have witnessed what had happened, anyone who had taken 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: photos or shot film, anyone who could provide any clues 83 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: as to who had shot the president uh photograph. Some 84 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: films that were taken by witnesses were developed and analyzed 85 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 1: by the authorities, so it became clear and all of 86 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: this that one of these witnesses had never been identified. 87 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: She's in the famous Abraham's A Pruder film as well 88 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: as other films and photographs. That famous film we talked 89 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: about in our Yeah. Louise Hoarez is one of the 90 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 1: scientists who evaluated that film to try to figure out 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: exactly what had happened. And this woman in question, UH 92 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: was wearing a brown trench coat in a headscarf, and 93 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: she filmed the motorcade as it passed down Elm Street, 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: and unlike other spectators, she didn't run when the shots 95 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: were fired. She kept filming, so she has some additional 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: footage from a unique angle that people might not have 97 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: otherwise seen. Uh. And then after that, after the shooting 98 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: had happened, she moved across the street, crossing Elm towards 99 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: the famous Grassy Knoll, along with a lot of other 100 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: people that were in the crowd. Uh. Some have speculated 101 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: that the crowd was sort of looking for who the 102 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: shooter had been, but if you look at it, there's 103 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: also a little bit of it seems like they're just 104 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: confused and looking around in general, like they're not even 105 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: quite sure how to process what's just happened. So, because 106 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: of her location on the south side of Elm Street 107 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: during the assassination, the film that this Mystery Woman shot 108 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: would have been almost a mirror to the prud footage, 109 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: and it is worth noting that she was not the 110 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: only person shooting from this angle. An a c engineer 111 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 1: named Orville Nix also captured the event on film from 112 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: the south side of Elm, but her vantage point also 113 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 1: would have included the book depository where Lee Harvey Oswald 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: shot from. And because of the triangular head scarf she 115 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: was wearing that day, which is similar to those often 116 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: associated with elderly Russian ladies. She became known as the 117 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: Babushka Lady, and her identity has been hotly debated, actually 118 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: for decades. The search for Babushka Lady includes a possible imposter, 119 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: allegations of a cover up, of course uh, and a 120 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: lot of fierce debate. But for several years after the shooting, 121 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: no one had any idea who this woman could be. 122 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: And before we get to the only person who's really 123 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: claimed to be her, So let's get back to the 124 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: bush Lady. So, as Tracy had said right before the break, 125 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: for many years after the shooting, no one knew who 126 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: this woman was. But in nineteen seventy that all began 127 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: to change. A woman emerged to claim the identity of 128 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: Baboushka Lady, and that woman was named Beverly Oliver. In 129 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: an interview with Jay gary Shaw, who is a researcher 130 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: and a writer of several books about the assassination, including 131 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: one called cover Up, The Governmental Conspiracy to Conceal the 132 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: fact about the public execution of John Kennedy, Oliver had 133 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: said that she had been there on Elm Street the 134 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: day of the shooting, and she had met Shaw by 135 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: chance and mentioned that she had witnessed the assassination, and 136 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: apparently he sort of felt like he had accidentally stumbled 137 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: upon this gold mine because people had been wondering who 138 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: that person was, and she just off handedly said, oh, yeah, 139 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: I was there, and he was, wait, are you this person? 140 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: And this raises quite a number of really important questions, 141 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: like who was this woman and why hadn't she been 142 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: silent for so long? And also why now? Yeah? So, uh, 143 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: you know she does She did mention off handedly in 144 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: that meeting, allegedly that she just didn't want it to 145 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: be a big public thing. Uh. But one of the 146 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: other things that's problematic is that some of the aspects 147 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: of her life caused people to question her credibility a 148 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: little bit. She had been a singer and a dancer, 149 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: though she is pretty adamant not a stripper, at a 150 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: Dallas burlesque club called the Colony Club from roughly one 151 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: and nineteen sixties six. A lot of sources you'll see 152 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 1: will say that she was working at the club in 153 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: sixty three, but she said in subsequent interviews that she 154 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: worked there until she was married in sixty six, and 155 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: she had worked there four and a half to five years. 156 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 1: So that's why we do the sixty one to sixty 157 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: six range. Uh. And the important thing is that the 158 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: Colony Club was right next to the Carousel Club, and 159 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: the Carousel Club was owned by Jack Ruby. Beverly Oliver 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: claimed to have been close with Jack Ruby and that 161 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: she had worked for him occasionally on a freelance basis, 162 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: not in his club as a normal performer, but as 163 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: a hostess and a cocktail mixer for after hours parties. 164 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: And she described the Carousel Club as rather sleezy in 165 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: comparison to her main place of business, which was the 166 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: Colony Club. Beverly Oliver was married briefly to George McGann, 167 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: who was also associated with the mafia and was murdered 168 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: in ninety so, which is another reason people kind of 169 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: don't give her a lot of credit. Um, you know, 170 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: she she does have a little bit of seediness in 171 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: her past. Yeah. These all feel like things that like 172 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: a defense attorney would be using to try to undermine 173 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: someone's credibility. Do you watch a lot of procedurals on television? Yeah. 174 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: And Oliver would have been seventeen at the time of 175 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: the assassination, and uh, in one of the questions of 176 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: like why didn't you come forward, she says that she did, 177 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: in fact walk across the street to the Grassy Knoll 178 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: after the shooting along with others because she had seen 179 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: official looking people there and she expected to be questioned, 180 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: but no one approached her, so she left. So it's 181 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 1: a little bit of a shrugger at that point, kind 182 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: of like, yeah, all right, you didn't approach them, or yeah, 183 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: that was my question. But I also can't claim that 184 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: I wouldn't know the mindset of a person who had 185 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: just witnessed that horrific event. I'm sure there's a little 186 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: bit of shock involved, so I don't know how a 187 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: normal a quote normal person would react. Just part of 188 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: the mystery. So according to Oliver, it wasn't until three 189 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: days later on November when she finally went back to 190 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: work at the Colony Club and then that she was questioned. 191 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: She described two men with FBI credentials waiting for her 192 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: at the club and they asked about her film from 193 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: the day of the shooting. She said she had it 194 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: in her makeup bag and turned it over to these 195 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: two men, and she asserts that one of them told her, well, 196 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: we want to take the film and develop it and 197 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: look at it for evidence, and we'll get back to 198 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: you in a few days. Then she said that no 199 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: one has seen the film since According to Oliver and 200 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: conspiracy researcher Gary Shaw, all government offices deny ever having 201 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: had possession of this film and it's never surfaced anywhere. Yeah, 202 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: and this particular story of how her film was taken 203 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: is one that people point to, uh and kind of 204 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: pick apart because it's shifted a little. There have been 205 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: times when it has been suggested that it was two 206 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: FBI agents and others where she's not sure if they 207 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: were both FBI, and Uh, there has been some speculation 208 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: that there were people walking around with fake credentials trying 209 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: to do potentially seedy things or cover up ethings. Uh. 210 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: So we don't really know. Uh. And the film sort 211 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: of being m I A it doesn't help matters. No, 212 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: But there are additional problems with her story. Uh. She 213 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: made several claims that really turned out to be a 214 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: little bit problematic. Yeah. Number One, nobody else has been 215 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: able to corroborate her claim that she was actually at 216 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: Dealy Plaza on the day of the shooting and at 217 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: the same time. No one has been able to place 218 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 1: her anywhere else either. Yeah, she doesn't have anybody that 219 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: could say I was with her or I knew she 220 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 1: was at place X, Y or Z, So it's really 221 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: just her word as to where she was. She also 222 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: asserted at one point that she had chosen a spot 223 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: near a man and his son on Elm Street in 224 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: anticipation in the motorcade passing by, and if you see 225 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: photos from that day, there is a man and a 226 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 1: young boy. However, that man, who was identified as Charles Brim, 227 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: had mentioned in an interview that he and his son 228 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: had first seen the motorcade at the corner of Maine 229 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: in Houston, and that they had then run over to 230 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: Elm just in time to see the motorcade passed by again, 231 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: So he couldn't have been standing there beforehand when she 232 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: said she took up her position near this family. Um. 233 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: There have been people that have said, like, this is 234 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: obviously a case of someone looking at a photograph and 235 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: then putting together a story based on what they see, 236 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: and that she's saying, no, no, I took it and 237 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: stood near these people when they weren't there to be 238 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: stood next to you prior to the event happening, right. Well, 239 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: then there's also the question of would you actually remember 240 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: that piece of it. I don't know. I don't really knew. 241 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: So then we get to the part where Oliver claimed 242 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: to have used a Yeshika Super eight zoom camera, but 243 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: that did not exist at the time of the assassination. 244 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: She's talked about this several times and tried to address 245 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: this as a criticism. Will kind of get into that 246 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: in just a minute, but her detractors have never found 247 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: her explanations for this to be very satisfactory. Uh yeah. 248 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: Oliver then later identified one of the men who she 249 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: said took her film as agent Redid Kennedy, who was 250 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: in fact an FBI agent, but Kennedy was actually in 251 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: New Orleans on the day that she claims he came 252 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: to the club. She also said that about two weeks 253 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: before the shooting, Jack Ruby introduced her to Lee Harvey 254 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: Oswald at the Carousel Club, referring to him as my 255 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: friend Lee Oswald of the CIA, which I'm not really 256 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 1: standard operating procedure for people who are supposed to be 257 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: operating in secret. Too, announced that fact to other people 258 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: and then be introduced that way. Yeah, Hi, my name 259 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: is Lee. I'm a CIA spook. Well, like I I 260 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: remember what a huge, huge deal that the Valerie plane 261 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: scandal was. Um, it was an enormous thing. Yeah, to 262 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: have leaked that information my understanding. I'm not in the CIA, 263 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: don't know. But my understanding is that you don't really 264 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: go around blabbing about it. There's usually a back a 265 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: secondary backstory to what your job is that it gets told. 266 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: But again, I'm not in it, I don't know. Oliver 267 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: also said that Janet Confordo, who was a dancer at 268 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: the Carousel Club she went under the stage name of Jada, 269 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: had witnessed grew Be introducing Lee Harvey Oswald to Beverly Oliver, 270 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: but Conforto had given interviews shortly after the events immediately 271 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: surrounding the assassination, and she had explicitly stated that she 272 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: had never seen Oswald at the club. So once again 273 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: her Beverly Oliver's account really contradicts what other people were saying. Yeah, 274 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: and then we get to the physical nature of what 275 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: Beverly Oliver looked like. The stature of the Baboushkal lady 276 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: compared to what Beverly Oliver looked like at age seventeen. 277 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: They don't quite match up. There even debates over whether 278 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: different images that people have claimed are the Baboosh Glady 279 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: are all the same woman. But the images mostly appeared 280 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: to be somebody with a thicker build than Oliver had 281 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: at that age. Yeah, most of them. She looks like 282 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: more like a middle aged woman that's a little bit heavier. Um, 283 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: whereas Beverly Oliver was a dancer and very fit. Uh 284 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: And in pictures and films from that time of Beverly Oliver, 285 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: you can see that she's a very lean well men, 286 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: So there's that. However, there's also the fact that the 287 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: woman was wearing a trench coat, so it obscures the figure. 288 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: It's not always clear. Well, and I know I have 289 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: a couple of coats that I put on and go wow, 290 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: this makes me look that's no, ma'am. And Tracy is 291 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: a lean girl. Uh So there are other discrepancies, and 292 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: they've all been analyzed and picked apart and supported and 293 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: refuted and argued over by Beverly believers and Beverly detractors. 294 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: Uh And before we get to the next bit about 295 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: how this really affected Beverly Oliver, we're gonna take a 296 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: brief moment, So back to Beverly Oliver. In an interview 297 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: with mobile Alabama paper The Harbinger in May, Beverly Oliver 298 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: mentioned how frustrating it was that people didn't believe her, 299 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: and she also asserted that Dan Rather, who's the only 300 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: member of the press who was allowed to see the 301 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: Zapruter footage early on, was part of the cover up 302 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: and that his career skyrocketed in aims for his involvement 303 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: in perpetuating this deception to the American people. Yeah, that 304 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: whole interview. I mean, it's with like a smaller paper, 305 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: but she really kind of comes off as she feels 306 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: very victimized by all of this, that there is a 307 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 1: cover up and that she particularly has been purposely discredited 308 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: because she somehow, you know, has this information like about 309 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: Lee Harvey Oswald knowing Jack Ruby and being in the CIA, 310 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: and that it's kind of all been a smear campaign. 311 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: And the reason that she points to for saying that 312 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: Dan Rather was part of this cover up is that 313 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: after seeing the footage for the first time, Rather described 314 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: what he had seen live on television and it's not 315 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: entirely accurate to what's actually in the film and in 316 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: his book that Cameron never blinks. He actually mentions these 317 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 1: inaccuracy of his account as being the result of relaying 318 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: rather shocking information. Uh. He has you know, he's still 319 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: in shock from the president being shot. He is seeing 320 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: this horrifying footage of the president being shot. He then 321 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: had to run several blocks she uh, do the broadcast 322 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 1: and relay this information, and he was doing it without 323 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: any notes. So he says it's just one of those 324 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: things where he did his best, but there are problems 325 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: with it, whereas all of our points to the discrepancy 326 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: and says he was clearly lying. Did you notice how 327 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: good his career got after that? It's all a cover up. 328 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: Also in this same interview, she was asked about Gerald 329 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: Posner's book Case Closed, in which he discredits her whole 330 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: story on the basis that it changed and that she 331 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: claimed to have used a camera that didn't exist in 332 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three. Uh, and her assertion that she was 333 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: introduced to Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, and that 334 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: Ruby introduced Oswald as being with the CIA. So he 335 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: pretty much discredited her whole thing based on these definitely 336 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,719 Speaker 1: problematic uh, pieces of her story. Yeah, and I'm going 337 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: to read a chunk. It's kind of longish, but it's 338 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: her response and it just kind of gives you interesting 339 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,880 Speaker 1: insight into you, uh, kind of how she has been 340 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: dealing with these things as they've come up. One she 341 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: said that she never actually read General Posner's book. Uh, 342 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: and the interviewer in this uh this article where they 343 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: do the interview, actually reads her sections of it. This 344 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: is her response. She says, Well, first of all, I 345 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: would like for him to tell me how my story 346 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: has ever changed. It has never changed. I never said 347 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: that I used to super eight camera that came from 348 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: a man named Gary Shaw in a book that he 349 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: wrote called The Cover Up. I might have said to him, 350 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: and this was seventy super eight meaning eight millimeter. All 351 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: I know is that it was a prototype camera that 352 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: a man I was dating, who worked for Eastman Kodak 353 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: by the name of Lawrence Taylor Ronco Jr. Gave me 354 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: as a present the September before the President was killed 355 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: in November, a brand new camera, a magazine load and 356 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: I had to send these little envelopes to Rochester to 357 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: be developed. That's all I know about the camera. And 358 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 1: it was a Yeshika. When this came out about the camera, 359 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: I called Yeshika New York and spoke to John Start. 360 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: I don't know what his position was. He was very 361 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: excited to do research on the camera. Posner is right 362 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,199 Speaker 1: that camera was not available to the general public in 363 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three, but it does not mean that I 364 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: could not have had a prototype camera of it. I'm 365 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 1: not saying it was super eight. I don't know what 366 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: it was. He also made a statement, and I have 367 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: it in writing in talking to his supervisors and people 368 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: of that time, that they felt like, probably if I 369 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: had used the word super eight in an interview, it's 370 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: like people going today to get something xerox. After they 371 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: came out, they just became the nomenclature for any kind 372 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: of an eight millimeter camera. She's so tired of talking 373 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: about that camera. I can tell um, Yeah, she's UM. 374 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I can appreciate. I don't know if her 375 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: story is true or not. If it is, I can 376 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: only imagine how frustrating it would be to have people go, 377 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: I don't believe you, I don't believe you. I don't 378 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: believe you. But at the same time, there's a lot 379 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: of convenient mulessness in the details. And at this point 380 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 1: it's been so far back, and there was time in 381 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: between different interviews. I don't I don't know that it 382 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: can never be sorted through. In two thousand three, forty 383 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: years after the Kennedy assassination, ABC News published polling results 384 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: that found that seven and ten of the Americans polled 385 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: believed that the killing of John F. Kennedy was a plot, 386 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: although they had varying degrees of conviction. Some were sure, 387 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: some we're pretty sure, somewhere I think probably. Yeah, So 388 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: all of those got counted in the seven out of ten. Yeah, 389 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: so a plot and not the work of just a 390 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: loan shooter. Of of those people, scent believed also that 391 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: there had been a government cover up. Only thirty two 392 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: percent of the people polled accepted the nineteen sixty four 393 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: findings of the Warren Commission UH that determined that Lee 394 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: Harvey Oswald had acted alone. And at the end of 395 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: the interview that we were talking about earlier in with 396 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: reporter Gary James, James asked Oliver if she had had 397 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: any regrets, and in response, she said, I'll tell you 398 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: there are two things in my lifetime I would change 399 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: if I could. One of them would be I would 400 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: not have been on the Grassy Knoll in November twenty. 401 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: The second thing is I would never have opened my mouth. However, 402 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: she has gone on to kind of make a career 403 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: out of being the Baboushka lady um In. She worked 404 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: with writer Coke Buchanan and wrote a book about her 405 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: story called Nightmare in Dallas, and she still makes public 406 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: appearances as the Baboushka Lady. Yes, she did one, I 407 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: don't remember where it was, but last month she appeared 408 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: coming to this part of a lead up to the 409 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: anniversary so act when yeah, uh and literally, I just 410 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: want to point out once again every person mentioned in 411 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: this discussion that we've had today has been called into 412 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: question in terms of truthfulness and credibility, as has almost 413 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: anyone who has touched the story, made a documentary, you know, 414 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: written a blog post on the internet. Uh. It's tricky too. 415 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: It's a tricky thing to want to talk about, I 416 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,880 Speaker 1: think because if you do, the second you have an opinion, 417 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: there is already going to be a herd of people 418 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: that want to disagree with you and argue it. So 419 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: it's It's a dynamic that's constantly kind of adversarial, which 420 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: is pretty fascinating. It's everyone trying to discredit everyone all 421 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: the time about everything related to the assassination of John F. 422 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Kennedy and her testimony before the United States of America 423 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: Assassination Records Review Board in November, she concluded her testimony 424 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: with the following statement. She says, but I would like 425 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: to make one statement to you and to anybody else 426 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: who is interested. When all the pictures or all the 427 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: pieces of this puzzle is put together, and I have 428 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: faith enough in my government and in my country to 429 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: believe that eventually it will all be it will be 430 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: all out, all of it will be given to the 431 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: researchers and the research community, unredacted, unedited, undamaged in any manner. 432 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: And whenever this is all put together and we really 433 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: have the honest pick sure of what happened that day, 434 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: no one more than Beverly Oliver hopes I have to 435 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: stand up to America and apologize. I'm not sure what 436 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: that means. That left me scratching my head, and it's 437 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 1: one of those things that I was surprised. I mean, 438 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: I granted him, not like surfing all of the various 439 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: conspiracy theory boards and the various historical analysis boards that 440 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: people really do deep dives on a lot of this, 441 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: but it's not something that comes up very often in 442 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: most of like the writing about her. And it's such 443 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: an odd statement that I yeah, it's a really odd 444 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: statement because it was a testimony before this review board. 445 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: Presumably it was given extemporaneously, right, Yeah, you and I 446 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 1: both know from doing this podcast sometimes when we are 447 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: speaking extemporaneously, ridiculous things that make no sense come out 448 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: of our mouth. Uh. But at the same time, the 449 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: part about no one more than Beverly Oliver hopes I 450 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: have to stand up to America and apologize, it just 451 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: rings odd. It's really strange. I mean, it follows this 452 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: questioning about the discrepancy of her camera model description, but 453 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: it's unclear whether she means like she wants to apologize 454 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: about saying the wrong things about the camera or just 455 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: in general, which seems like that doesn't make sense in 456 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: the context of all of this unredacted. Uh, you know, 457 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,959 Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle that she hopes magically all come 458 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: together at some point. It's just it opens up like 459 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: a whole new can of worms. For It's like, Beverly, 460 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? What are you apologizing for? 461 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: But I don't know, you know, will we ever know 462 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: the true identity of Babushka Lady. There's no telling. There 463 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: are so many crazy theories. But I shouldn't say they're 464 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: crazy their theories. We don't know what's true. Well, it's 465 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: the big question of if it isn't Beverly Oliver, then 466 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: who is it? Yeah? You know, is it just a 467 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: random person who somehow was in such a media blackout 468 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 1: that they didn't see or hear any of the many 469 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: requests for all witnesses to come forward, and anyone who 470 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: had taken film, Uh, some someone who had some clear 471 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: reason not to want to meet questions. Yeah, there have 472 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 1: even been people that have theorized that, in fact, Babusha 473 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: Lady was part of the whole thing. Uh, you know, 474 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: why didn't she run away and stop filming when this 475 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: all happened? Why did she keep filming, you know, seemingly 476 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: very calmly. Why did she know ahead of time what 477 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: was going on? Well, and the preter similarly kept filming. Yeah, 478 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: although he was much further away, she was quite close 479 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: to the street. Um. But yeah, there's lots of questions 480 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 1: and she's I will say this to that. Beverly Oliver 481 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: is not the only witness whose account has been questioned, 482 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: um and picked apart and kind of discredited, although she 483 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: is the only one that kind of emerged from a 484 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: cloud of not knowing who this person was after many 485 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: years well, and is a growing body of scientific study 486 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: examining how I witness. Yeah, eye witness testimony is often 487 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: vastly inaccurate. Yeah, I mean, and that's shown, like I said, 488 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 1: in some of the other accounts of that day by eyewitnesses. 489 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,360 Speaker 1: I forget the name of the woman who um. At 490 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: one point, I think it was that same day she 491 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: gave an interview where she was talking about a dog 492 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: in the road and there was no dog in the road, 493 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: and so you know, some people have used that to discreditor, 494 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: but others have said basically what you say, that eyewitnesses 495 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: don't always clearly remember what's happened, especially at a very 496 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: sort of watershed shocking event. Beverley Oliver has even said 497 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: at various times that she didn't really remember a lot 498 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 1: of that day and she only came to these memories 499 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: under hypnosis. Which has made other people kind of I mean, 500 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: that's the whole other thing. So we may never know 501 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: the truth. And I feel like the further and further 502 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: we get away from that day, I mean, we're fifty 503 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: years out now, the less and less likely we will 504 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: ever know. Well, and it's at this point but Busha 505 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: Lady could be deceased. Yeah, we don't know. Well, it's 506 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: we're fifty years out now. At this point, we have 507 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 1: like an official version of the story that has been 508 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: official for quite some time, although it's been questioned by 509 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 1: other officials, but it's also been so deeply screwed. May 510 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: I think maybe more deeply scrutinized and more persistently scrutinized 511 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,239 Speaker 1: than any other event in modern American history. Yeah, I mean, 512 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: I think in the modern equivalent is sort of nine 513 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: eleven and fifty years after that. It'll be very interesting 514 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: to be able to compare that and what's going on 515 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: in terms of investigation and questioning still, because I'm sure 516 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: it will still be happening to this at its fifty 517 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: year mark, and where will we be. And unfortunately, because 518 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, so many of the players in the JFK 519 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: assassination were dead within you know, a short period of time, 520 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: we can't ever question them. Uh so maybe for ever 521 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: probably uh But in the meantime we'll switch gears. Because 522 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: I have some really fun listener mail. Please read it. 523 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: I will. It made me laugh so hard. This actually 524 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: came to us via Facebook and it's from our listener, 525 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: Amanda Uh and it is in response to our Haunted 526 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: Mansion episode. She says, I never felt I had anything 527 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: outstanding to tell you about, but after listening to your 528 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: recent podcast on the history of the Haunted Mansion, I 529 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 1: knew I had something unique to contribute. Em boy does 530 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: she it's so fun. She says. My grandpa's best friend SI, 531 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: and one of those family friends that are just known 532 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: as my uncle. SI was the head of sanitation for 533 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: Disneyland in the early years. This was a really important 534 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: job because Mrs Disney stipulated that the park had to 535 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: be immaculate, unlike the other fairs and parks at the time. 536 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: So SI was interested with a very big job and 537 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: would tell us cool stories about the early years of 538 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: the park. So when I listen to your podcast on 539 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: the Haunted Mansion and how the creators had played pranks 540 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: on the cleanup crew. I had to giggle because I 541 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: had heard that story before, but from the jan Dur's perspective, 542 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: and how so I had to defend his poor staff 543 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: even though he knew it was just in good fun. Okay, 544 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: I love that so much because you never hear that 545 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: ankle like we always hear the worldly crumb story about 546 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: how you know they got the note about how you 547 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: couldn't you would have to clean up your own space. 548 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: But when you think about it from the janitors side, 549 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: like just trying to protect his people from these shocking 550 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: and scary moments, let's see it, and she says, I 551 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: wanted to leave you with my favorite story he ever told. Though. 552 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: So back in the very beginning of the Parks creation, 553 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: when things were pretty secretive about what was happening there, 554 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: my uncle Si would do all kinds of odd jobs 555 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: for the company to get everything set up, and I 556 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: was always told that he needed to keep a low 557 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: profile on what he was doing. One of these jobs 558 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: did not go as planned, so I was trusted to 559 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: move some of the animatronic animals for the Jungle Cruise 560 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: from the studio where they were created to their new 561 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: home and adventure Land. So siloeded the animals into a 562 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: big truck and covered the top and sides of the 563 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: tarps so no one could see through the slats of 564 00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: the truck. But as he was driving along the highway, 565 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: the tart aim unhinged and everyone could see the tigers, elephants, 566 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: and giraffes all piled up in his truck together. The 567 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: people driving along next to him and passers by gave 568 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: him very confused and concerned looks. One man seemed to 569 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: fear for size life and shouted to him that he 570 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: was a tiger in his truck, that there was a 571 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: tiger in his truck. So I just replied, it's okay, 572 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: I know. The man turned white, so I just laughed. 573 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: I hope this gives you a little more insight into 574 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: the park development, and I hope to hear more great 575 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: stuff from his troop in the podcast. I love that 576 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: it's so fun. Yeah, And I have to say I 577 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: love the janitorial staff at Disneyland specifically. And here's why. 578 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: Tell me, because when you run a race at Disneyland, 579 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: which I do a lot, the janitorial staff will put 580 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: up these huge banners when you're running through the backstage 581 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: area that say, let's say like things like Disneyland Sanitation 582 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: cheers you and they are all out there, like you know, 583 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 1: six in the morning, cheering for strangers, reading your name 584 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: off your bibb and clapping and they're all just so awesome. 585 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: They'll high five everybody as you go by, like they 586 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: just a great group of people. Holly is tearing up. 587 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: I love It's one of my favorite parts. Whenever I 588 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: do a race there. That's always like when I know 589 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: I'm coming around that corner to the sanitation office, I'm 590 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: always like, I love this pool because it's always really fun. 591 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: They're strangers who'd treat you like family well, and I'm glad. 592 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: Uncle Slide was a good boss who wanted, you know, 593 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: to protect his crew from undue stress, and his legacy 594 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: is that their sanitation department is still awesome. Love it. 595 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: If you want to write to us stories that will 596 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: make me miss the od and we'd be in a 597 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: good way, you could do so at History Podcast at 598 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: Discovery dot com. You can connect with us on Facebook 599 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: at facebook dot com, slash history class stuff on Twitter 600 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: at Misston History and at Miston History dot tumbler dot com. 601 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: We are also always pinning things on Pinterests. If you 602 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: would like to learn a little bit more about what 603 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 1: we talked about today, you can go to our website 604 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: and just type in the letters JFK in the search bar, 605 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: and one of the first articles you will see is 606 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: who killed JFK's examined some of the controversy and conspiray 607 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: you see around, various findings and stories and accounts of 608 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: the events of that day. Well, and by the time 609 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: this episode airs, we should also have a brand new article. 610 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: It's about JFK conspiracy theories fantastic, So if you want 611 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: to read those or almost anything else your mind can 612 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: think about, we have an article for it, and that 613 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: is auto website, which is houst works dot com for 614 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Because it 615 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: how s toff works dot com. Netflix streams TV shows 616 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: and movies directly to your home, saving you time, money, 617 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: and hassle. As a Netflix member, you can instantly watch 618 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: TV episodes and movies streaming directly to your PC, Mac, 619 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: or right to your TV with your Xbox three, sixty 620 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: p S three or Nintendo we console, plus Apple devices, 621 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: Kindle and Nook. Get a free thirty day trial membership. 622 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: Go to www dot Netflix dot com and sign up now.