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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, March twelfth, and we

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Speaker 2: have a stacked knight of headlines. So listen, ladies. The

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Speaker 2: prosecution and the defense have both rested in the Corey

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Speaker 2: Richin's case. You'll remember she's the mom accused of poisoning

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Speaker 2: her husband. Also, the Epstein nonsense continues. His accountant took

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Speaker 2: a real hot seat and has been naming names in

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Speaker 2: front of Congress, many of the names that we've discussed here,

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Speaker 2: and it's important stuff. And frankly, this is astounding information

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Speaker 2: and a real step forward. Plus it's a big night.

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Speaker 2: We have our Amanda Knox back. She's joining us yet again,

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Speaker 2: both to share her story and also to talk about

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Speaker 2: her podcast Doubt the Lucy let Be case. So if

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Speaker 2: you have any questions or you want to talk to

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Speaker 2: her live eight eight eight three one Crime, or of

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Speaker 2: course you can always leave us.

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Speaker 3: A talk that Hi, ladies, him Friday, Happy Little Friday.

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Speaker 3: You gotpy Friday Junior. Yeah, GE's wits. I was just saying,

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Speaker 3: I think it's I feel like it's Friday today, but

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Speaker 3: it's Friday, Junior.

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Speaker 4: It's Happy Friday Junior. Everybody.

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Speaker 2: We made it.

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Speaker 4: And how exciting. And Amanda is.

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Speaker 3: Here, I know, back by popular demand. She's such a

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Speaker 3: good such a good guest. And I can't wait to

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Speaker 3: talk to her about this case because we kind of

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Speaker 3: got into it last night a little bit about it,

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Speaker 3: and it's pretty interesting and I don't know where I

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Speaker 3: stand on it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I cannot wait to hear her her side for

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Speaker 5: last two better or what you know.

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Speaker 4: The investigative process has been so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm loving forward to it. So this is Cory Riches. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: my goodness. I mean, I mean we are seeing some

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Speaker 2: real action here.

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Speaker 3: This was wild today. So yeah, major turning point today

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Speaker 3: in the case. And again this is the case, the

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Speaker 3: murder trial of Corey Richins. She's the Utah mom and

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Speaker 3: she's accused of poisoning her husband Eric Richins with fentnel Well.

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Speaker 3: Prosecutors arrested their case today and then there was some

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Speaker 3: kind of kerfuffle in the courtroom about a witness they

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Speaker 3: wanted to bring in and the judge was like, no,

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Speaker 3: I already told you you can't do that. And if

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Speaker 3: you do, oh and then the judge left for a

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Speaker 3: little bit and he came back and he goes, well,

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Speaker 3: I guess we can bring this guy in, but if

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Speaker 3: you do, it's going to open the door to these

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Speaker 3: other two people. And then the defense was like, we actually,

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Speaker 3: uh want you to rule from the bench. They wanted

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Speaker 3: the defense or they wanted the judge to basically decide

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Speaker 3: right that in there to rule like a verdict. They

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Speaker 3: wanted a directed verdict, and the judge was like, no,

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Speaker 3: the prosecution has definitely provided enough evidence for the jury

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Speaker 3: to make a decision. I mean, it was kind of wild.

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Speaker 3: They as soon as the judge said as soon as

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Speaker 3: the judge was like, no, we're not going to do

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Speaker 3: a directed verdict, the defense was like, okay, fine, we

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Speaker 3: rest what.

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Speaker 2: What I know? That was a jaw dropping moment and

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Speaker 2: I was shocking, what Yeah, that was sort of a

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Speaker 2: record scratch.

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Speaker 5: It was, And I have to say I found it

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Speaker 5: so very curious because court had gone to lunch, the

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Speaker 5: jurors weren't yet seated, and the judge was saying, hey, defense.

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Speaker 4: Team, who do you want to start?

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Speaker 6: Right?

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Speaker 5: And the defense previously they had a list between thirty

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Speaker 5: and one hundred people. And then you see two of

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Speaker 5: the attorneys whispering at each other, whispering at each other

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Speaker 5: and then saying, oh, ps, we rest no one's going

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Speaker 5: on the stand. I mean, this isn't the first time

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Speaker 5: we've seen this. But I was actually expecting a defense.

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Speaker 2: Coorse, I know, for some reason, and I'm not even

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Speaker 2: sure why I was expecting that, to the extent because

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Speaker 2: I they were going to write it seemed as and

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Speaker 2: certainly in opening statements. But all that to be said,

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Speaker 2: it did sort of feel like what and is that

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Speaker 2: a conversation that they had practiced? Like what were they

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Speaker 2: saying to each other to come to that conclusion in

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Speaker 2: that moment?

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I wish what we knew.

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Speaker 4: That's what's so curious. Again, they just came back from lunch, like,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't you have made it?

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Speaker 2: Wouldn't you have talked about it over lunch before you're

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Speaker 2: sitting there in front of the joven?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well I know that. So they wanted to bring

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Speaker 3: this guy in who said that he had communication with Eric,

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Speaker 3: like many many many many years ago in which Eric

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Speaker 3: talked about getting high on funnel or something. Okay, but

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Speaker 3: the judge was like, no, it's not you know, we're

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Speaker 3: not going to allow this kind of testimony. And then

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Speaker 3: he went back and then he comes It was like

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Speaker 3: a twenty minute break and then he comes back and

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Speaker 3: he's like, Okay, we can allow this testimony, but if

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Speaker 3: we do, it's going to open the door to these

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Speaker 3: other two witnesses that the state wanted. Okay, And at

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Speaker 3: that moment is when the defense was like forget it.

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Speaker 3: Were done. So there was something there, But I don't

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Speaker 3: know why does.

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Speaker 2: That loose string? I know, I really don't know it either.

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Speaker 2: And I really don't really betting on one of you

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Speaker 2: having this piece of information.

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Speaker 7: I know.

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Speaker 2: I was like, of the three of us, one of

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Speaker 2: us should know, or we need a lip reader I

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Speaker 2: meeting maybe.

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Speaker 3: One of our guests, maybe one of our listeners know ease.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, although they were very good, they were using their hand.

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Speaker 5: I'm putting my hand up, you know, to block what

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Speaker 5: I'm saying. They weren't doing that. But yeah, part of

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Speaker 5: what you're referring to body is it was someone who

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Speaker 5: was going to speak to Eric, the deceased victim back

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Speaker 5: I think even as far back as high school using

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Speaker 5: what was called red devils. Right, however, red devils, and

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Speaker 5: the defense was, you know, intonating that that was code

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Speaker 5: for drugs. And the judge, who's been very cool tempered,

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Speaker 5: lost like the slightest bit is temper. He's like, we've

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Speaker 5: talked about this before, and Red Devil's like, you can't

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Speaker 5: bring it into court. It has not been like, it's

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Speaker 5: not justifiably being able to brought to court.

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Speaker 3: But then the judge went to his office to his

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Speaker 3: chambers and he came back with like paperwork on a

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Speaker 3: couple other cases, and he's like, I've reviewed these and

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Speaker 3: I'm going to allow it. But if I do, then

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Speaker 3: we're going to allow these two things that the state wanted.

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Speaker 3: And then defense was like, oh no, we don't want that.

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Speaker 2: So it's very interesting Pandora's box a little bit like here, well,

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Speaker 2: then great, you're going to have it's going to open

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Speaker 2: the door elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: Right, it's going to open the door to these two

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Speaker 3: witnesses that the state wanted, and the defense decided not

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Speaker 3: to go along with that. So now you know the

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Speaker 3: trial is going to be moving forward. Towards closing arguments

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Speaker 3: and of course jury deliberations, which is going to determine

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Speaker 3: whether or not Corey Richins is convicted of murdering her

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Speaker 3: husband or not. The judge told the jury they don't

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Speaker 3: need to report back to the courthouse until Monday at

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Speaker 3: eight thirty, and he tells the jurors, of course, not

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Speaker 3: to discuss the case with anyone and they'll be given

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Speaker 3: instructions on Monday after closing arguments.

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Speaker 2: Wow, such a big ask to have your jurors discussing

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Speaker 2: a major case like this that is in the news

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Speaker 2: and on every headline, and that the tip of so

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Speaker 2: many people's tongues.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's a real big ask.

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Speaker 2: And again it's you know, we're very grateful for jurors

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Speaker 2: for doing that, but no.

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Speaker 3: It's a massive civic you know, service.

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Speaker 5: A cornerstone of our society, really of society. And if

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Speaker 5: you are just joining us, we're talking about kind of

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Speaker 5: a wild twist that happened in the Cory Richins case.

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Speaker 5: She's the woman who's accused of murdering her husband, Eric Richards,

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Speaker 5: with fentanoyl and the defense today rested without calling a

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Speaker 5: single witness. What I thought was Another interesting moment was

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Speaker 5: when the judge confirmed that Corey Richins indeed did not

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Speaker 5: want to speak, and he said, hey, are you sure

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Speaker 5: that you you know, are going against I think was

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Speaker 5: the word to use, actually, and are not going to

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Speaker 5: take the stand. And it was the first time we

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Speaker 5: actually heard her voice in court.

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Speaker 2: Which was a little different than I was expecting, as

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Speaker 2: it always is, right, it always is. And you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm even curious. I wonder if even Amanda like optics

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Speaker 2: at this point are so crucial, right, every piece of

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Speaker 2: it seems that it's moving the needle in just a

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Speaker 2: little way one way or the other. And I'm so

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Speaker 2: curious if that's a big piece of her discussion. But

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Speaker 2: hearing her voice was surprising to me.

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Speaker 3: You know, I kind of wonder about that too, because

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Speaker 3: like when we're watching it, there's like a close up

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Speaker 3: of Corey, right, yes, but the jurors don't see that, right,

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Speaker 3: Do they have the same optics that we do.

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Speaker 4: They don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't believe they know. And it's such an interesting point.

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Speaker 2: I think I do think this is an assertion not

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Speaker 2: for every but any time that I've been in court,

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Speaker 2: there is a feeling in the room. That's of course,

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Speaker 2: there is really nothing quite like it. It's like the

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Speaker 2: difference between you know, watching something on television, right and

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Speaker 2: then versus being in the room. And sometimes it's there's

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Speaker 2: more empathy or anger.

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Speaker 4: It sort of heightens it a little bit.

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Speaker 2: But in this case, I was curious because she seems

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Speaker 2: so reserved and tough behind behind the table. What was

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Speaker 2: your thought on it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel I feel the same way, honestly, exactly

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Speaker 3: the same. There's really I don't. I just I just

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Speaker 3: often wonder like do they get the same like kind

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Speaker 3: of like entitled vibes that I get from her. I

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Speaker 3: don't know if. I don't know if they do, because

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Speaker 3: like you know, the cameras like zoomed in on her

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Speaker 3: that we see right, and we see all her micro

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Speaker 3: like you know.

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Speaker 2: Facial compressions or lays, and we have commentary. You know

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Speaker 2: there's someone she got very you know, she was very

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Speaker 2: she was giving me, you know, put off the tough

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Speaker 2: look or she had a feeling. So you know you're

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Speaker 2: hearing that commentary, And does that play a part? Is

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Speaker 2: that a version of bias?

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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 2: I would assume? So all that to be said the book, Okay,

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Speaker 2: so this book.

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Speaker 3: Did you know? Do you guys? Okay, so let's do this.

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Speaker 4: I saw her on the.

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Speaker 2: Today Show, I believe real Time, remember when she was

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Speaker 2: talking about this Real Time.

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Speaker 3: Wednesday's testimony kind of went into some details about that book.

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Speaker 3: It was written by ghostwriter. It wasn't even written by her.

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Speaker 3: I know, it wasn't even written by her. An the

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Speaker 3: police officer that testified, his name is Investigator O'Driscoll, right,

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Speaker 3: he's like the lead investigator, and he testified about this

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Speaker 3: children's book that she wrote, and he said that the

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Speaker 3: office that he works at received a copy of it

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Speaker 3: in like a gift box, and it was an anonymous

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Speaker 3: package and it had a note and the note said,

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Speaker 3: there are two sides to every story. This is the

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Speaker 3: true Cory. A devoted wife and mother thought you should know.

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Speaker 3: Well guess what they learned through a subpoena at Amazon

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Speaker 3: that the book was sent her mom. Her mom sent

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Speaker 3: the costs a gift and we're like, this is the

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Speaker 3: real Corey. She couldn't have done this. This is this

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Speaker 3: is who she really is.

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Speaker 2: I just thought that was and that kind of changed

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Speaker 2: it a little bit because the cops were not feeling

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Speaker 2: this book you know that kind of that part of

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Speaker 2: this story really shaped kind of empathy obviously for her.

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Speaker 2: I'm convinced there's a version of Munchausen's involved here, or

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Speaker 2: Munchausenes by proxy. Yeah, because she was getting sort of

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Speaker 2: accolades for being this you know, amazing widow that was

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Speaker 2: raising her children and managing their grief and putting that

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Speaker 2: grief on paper in a book. No less that she

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Speaker 2: was profiting off of and it was.

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Speaker 4: All fraud, right.

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Speaker 5: I think that was just a little, in her from

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Speaker 5: her purview, a little bonus on top of it.

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Speaker 4: All that attention, I do not think.

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Speaker 5: I think for some people that may be the driving

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Speaker 5: force which makes them. I think for her it was

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Speaker 5: cash and her extramarital boyfriend.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Fair, No, no, totally fair. But it speaks to the

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Speaker 2: psychosis a bit also of somebody who would actually poison

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Speaker 2: her husband a number one, let alone doing it twice,

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Speaker 2: and you know, then turning to her children whose lives

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Speaker 2: she's ruined, and consoling them in such a way, and

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Speaker 2: then receiving praise for the accolades. I literally saw her

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Speaker 2: doing an interview and thought to myself, as a viewer

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Speaker 2: of whatever the talk show was. I want to say,

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Speaker 2: it was the Today's Show and I felt for her

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Speaker 2: so deeply.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of the poisoning twice. The jury on Wednesday heard

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Speaker 3: calls between Corey and her mom, Lisa. They were played

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom and it was an including a conversation

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Speaker 3: when the two discussed the claim that Corey poisoned Eric

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Speaker 3: initially on Valentine's Day with that sandwich. And you can

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Speaker 3: hear Corey say on the telephone call, they are nuts,

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Speaker 3: saying it was a lie. You know, that she had

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Speaker 3: never poisoned him on Valentine's Day, So just to play

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Speaker 3: that sided story, Yeah, they played some of the Jellhouse

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Speaker 3: calls and mom was saying, hey, they said you poisoned

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Speaker 3: him with a sandwich, and Corey was like, no, that

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Speaker 3: they're nuts. I never would have done that.

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Speaker 2: The right's pretty convincing. She does claim her instnt you know,

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Speaker 2: so you know, I really hope that like there's a

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Speaker 2: there's this you know, secret innocence here, because that would

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Speaker 2: be very diabolical.

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Speaker 3: The testimony what yesterday Wednesday, to me was the most

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Speaker 3: compelling of the whole case. With the investigator, it's almost

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Speaker 3: like that, well, the state did save the best. For last,

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Speaker 3: they presented the walk the Dog letter. You know, we've

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Speaker 3: gone over that several times in which you know, it's

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Speaker 3: addressed to Corey's mom and it's basically telling Corey's mom, Hey,

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Speaker 3: tell my brother, you know, to tell the to tell

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Speaker 3: the authorities that Eric was drug seeking in Mexico and

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Speaker 3: you know, you got to get me home. She was saying,

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Speaker 3: you got to get me out of here, basically, you know,

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Speaker 3: telling it's witness tampering basically at this point, you know,

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Speaker 3: with this letter. And then he testified about the housekeeper too.

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Speaker 3: He said that when they went to go search her house,

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Speaker 3: they discovered drug paraphernalia, she had a gun that she

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Speaker 3: wasn't allowed to have because she has a criminal history,

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Speaker 3: and then there was a copy of Eric's obituary at

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Speaker 3: her house. Isn't that interesting?

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Speaker 7: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I just think it's interesting.

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Speaker 4: I thought that too.

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Speaker 3: And then they talked about her the housekeeper's interviews, and

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Speaker 3: they said that she minimized her role in the whole situation.

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Speaker 3: She appeared very guarded. He said that it was like

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Speaker 3: an attempt at self preservation. She told investigators she wanted

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Speaker 3: to help, but struggle to remember details. He testified that

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Speaker 3: the investigators encouraged her to share whatever she could without

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Speaker 3: guessing or filling in gaps, and he emphasized that specific

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Speaker 3: details were important to the investigation. And she was interviewed

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Speaker 3: six times over ten hours, and portions of those interviews

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Speaker 3: were played for the jury and for those who don't

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Speaker 3: know the case. Basically, the housekeepers, the one that testified

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Speaker 3: she supplied the drugs to Corey and when then Corey

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Speaker 3: of course poured the deadly fentanyl in the Moscow mule,

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Speaker 3: which she served to herself. That's what the state is alleging.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, it was very compelling teste. It was very good

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Speaker 2: the housekeeper. You could tell that you know they had

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Speaker 2: a thing at some point, but that there was no

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Speaker 2: real love.

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Speaker 4: Loss there no, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 5: Well, we'll obviously keep following this and when we come back,

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Speaker 5: Jeffrey Epstein's longtime account and testified before Congress, and he's

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Speaker 5: spelling names and opening up money trails. Later, Amanda Knox

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Speaker 5: joins us keep it here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney armstrong and body moved, and yes we have a

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Speaker 2: full full house. You have Sam and Adam waiting by

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Speaker 2: the phone, so if you want to call eight eight

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Speaker 2: eight to three one Crime and of course producer Taha,

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Speaker 2: who is keeping us on a tight leash tonight because

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Speaker 2: Amanda Knox is here. She is back, and we are

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Speaker 2: so happy to hear it. We got so much wonderful

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Speaker 2: feedback about her, her words of wisdom and inspiration and

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Speaker 2: just like what a cool cat. She was such a

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Speaker 2: big hit when she was here last time. And we're

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Speaker 2: so excited to talk about her new case that she

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Speaker 2: is knee deep in also her new podcast. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: all all that and more so Epstein here we are.

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Speaker 2: It continues, but you know, behind the scenes, the House

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Speaker 2: Overside Committee is continuing to do its thing. And Epstein's accountants,

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Speaker 2: you know, had to kind of face the music in

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Speaker 2: front of Congress once and for all. Now, when I

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Speaker 2: say accountant, let's just remember the accountant knows so much, right,

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Speaker 2: follow the money, follow the money, follow the money. So

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Speaker 2: to me, this is such a big piece of this story.

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Speaker 2: And boy boy, he did not disappoint absolutely.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. The guy's name is Richard Kahn. And not only

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Speaker 5: is he one of Epstein's accountants, he's also the.

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Speaker 4: Co executor of his will.

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Speaker 5: And this testimony ran about seven hours, and this all

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Speaker 5: happened at a closed door House Oversight Committee hearing. If

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Speaker 5: you are just catching up, Epstein was a financier, very wealthy.

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Speaker 5: He was arrested in twenty nineteen on federal sex trafficking charges,

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Speaker 5: and he now it is coming to light it really

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Speaker 5: was a world wide web of sex trafficking, and Congress

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Speaker 5: is holding lots of hearings to get information out. Finally,

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Speaker 5: so this investigation subpoenaed Richard Kahn. And here's a couple

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Speaker 5: of things that he said. So con said that his

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Speaker 5: work with Jeffrey Epstein was strictly professional, that he never

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Speaker 5: attended parties or social events. That also he was not

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Speaker 5: aware of the terrible, unforgivable things he did to women,

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Speaker 5: and that had he known about Epstein's abuse quote, I

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Speaker 5: would have quit immediately. So there's several more things. But

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Speaker 5: is there any like knee jerks you guys have, Oh yeah, huge,

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Speaker 5: My knee jerk is major. Whether he was on that

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Speaker 5: island or not.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a real look at complacency as

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Speaker 2: we look at this case as a general, overall arching case.

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Speaker 2: If you are collecting a bunch of money or managing

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Speaker 2: billions of dollars by some of the most powerful people

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Speaker 2: in the world, and you are looking a blind eye allegedly,

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Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly to something so grotesque that you could put

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Speaker 2: a stop to. I have a hard time believing the

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Speaker 2: accountant didn't think something was up, given all the red

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Speaker 2: flash eggs that we know to be true from so

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Speaker 2: many banks.

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Speaker 3: No, that that's exactly what I was going to say.

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Speaker 3: How could you not be suspicious of something going through

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Speaker 3: basically his finances, like where's he getting all this influx

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Speaker 3: of money or or where is he spending all this money?

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Speaker 4: Correct?

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Speaker 2: Why are we paying so many things in cash? Why

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Speaker 2: are all of these undisclosed amounts going to so many

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Speaker 2: random We're.

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Speaker 4: Not talking.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, but by the way, like we're not even

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Speaker 2: talking about little things here and there. We are talking

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Speaker 2: about millions, billions of dollars. These are egregious amounts of money.

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Speaker 2: The dollar amounts have become so wild that it's it's

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Speaker 2: even hard for us to wrap our brain around, like

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Speaker 2: this entire case big, it's almost too big. It's hard

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Speaker 2: to imagine. Listen, I watched the news yesterday and I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing ninety three billion dollars in lobster tails. I get crazy,

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Speaker 2: right that. I'm like, I look back before the ninety

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Speaker 2: three billions being spent this year lobster to last administration,

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Speaker 2: Like what it's like? Okay, so apparently this is a

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Speaker 2: little like how it's done regardless of either side, right.

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Speaker 4: Or is that okay?

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Speaker 2: And then you see this and you're like everybody seems

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Speaker 2: to have the same script. I didn't see anything. I

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Speaker 2: just took the check. I didn't know anything. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know anything. And in my mind, even if that was

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Speaker 2: the case, isn't that alone a crime to be that

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Speaker 2: bad of an accountant that you're not seeing me much

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Speaker 2: of a red flag?

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Speaker 3: Is it an accountant's job to get in the business though,

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Speaker 3: of what the person's doing with them. I don't, I

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Speaker 3: don't mean. I guess that's a question point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess that's a fair point. But like, if

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Speaker 4: we have.

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Speaker 3: Is it just to take the money and do whatever

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Speaker 3: whip it?

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Speaker 2: And yeah, follow instructions, right, follow the instructions.

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Speaker 4: Okay, fair enough?

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Speaker 2: Like I asked, you asked you asked, no, no reaction.

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Speaker 5: Yeah no, and I grant you like, is it the

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Speaker 5: accountant's job.

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Speaker 4: Let's say it's not. Let's assume it's hot, but agree,

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Speaker 4: let's assume it's not.

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Speaker 5: I still take issue with his testimony saying I wasn't

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Speaker 5: aware of anything that he did. This guy Richard Kahn

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Speaker 5: the account and he ran at least sixty four trusts

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Speaker 5: and financial entities. He was moving large sums of money daily.

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Speaker 5: These monies include payments to women, payments for tuition, and

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Speaker 5: unexplained cash withdrawals. So my point being, you know, even

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Speaker 5: if it wasn't quote his business, it would have raised

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Speaker 5: an internal eyebrow, like what is happening with all of

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Speaker 5: these monies and tuition?

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Speaker 2: And what is becoming more apparent is that just the

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Speaker 2: general lifestyle of Jeffrey Epstein. While of course many people

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Speaker 2: that are secondhand in third hand in his circle of

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Speaker 2: course maybe didn't know, but it seems like it was

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Speaker 2: such an open secret that it's shocking. It's actually shocking

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Speaker 2: how much of an open secret his dealings were and

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00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 2: how many people were made aware of these many complaints.

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Speaker 2: Even if we're just going to the women that we've

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Speaker 2: spoken to, here on the show.

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Speaker 4: Their their stories.

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Speaker 2: Alone have been vindicated, and still there's been there's been

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Speaker 2: no action. So the names, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead,

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Speaker 2: but like Court, these were pretty astonished, astonishing names. This

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Speaker 2: is where the House Oversight Committee is very useful. You

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Speaker 2: will be perjuring yourself. You were being asked a direct question.

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Speaker 2: Hand you know, literally hand up, as if you are.

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Speaker 2: It would be treason to lie at this point, right,

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Speaker 2: am I overstating? So he named names? Is it true?

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Speaker 4: Different difference?

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Speaker 2: I stand corrected.

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Speaker 4: However, a big deal, A big no no, But okay.

439
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 5: The oversight chair said that Richard Kahn did indeed name

440
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 5: the five main people who paid Jeffrey Epstein the most.

441
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 5: These include familiar names less Wexter we've spoken about. He's

442
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 5: the billionaire, victorious, victorious secret at the Crombie Bath and

443
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 5: body Works, et cetera, and many many.

444
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: Others, runs the hospital in Ohio and the largest hospital

445
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 2: name on the door, and also associated with so much

446
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: in these files and straight up accusations by young girls

447
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: underage and otherwise, including allegedly allegedly allegedly at the Zoro Ranch.

448
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: And there is that allegation from the farmer sisters that

449
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 2: one of them was like I woke up and I

450
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 2: was in his home less Westerner. Oh that's right, and

451
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: you know again allegedly, allegedly allegedly, But why are we

452
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 2: not seeing more accountability here? This guy just showed said,

453
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just didn't know what this guy

454
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 2: was doing. He said he worked for the Rothschilds. He

455
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 2: worked on behalf of them, so I had to believe him.

456
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 2: That's what he said in court, I don't know. And

457
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 2: then his lawyer literally said, I'm going to ask you

458
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 2: to stop speaking stock Yeah, like slapped his hand and like,

459
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 2: stop speaking. The guy hasn't said anything yet. This guy

460
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: has all the secrets in his head and he's getting

461
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 2: slapped on the wrist for saying two names.

462
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 4: But those names were big mic.

463
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 2: Drops, the Rothschilds Major, So yeah, that is the stick.

464
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein was working at a very high level with

465
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of cash, and I have to assume there's

466
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: arms involved with that. There's a lot of talk about,

467
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: you know, weapons and sales and laundering and how does

468
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 2: the account and not know any of this.

469
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, a few other names are I agree by the

470
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 5: way that he knows more, I believe than he was

471
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 5: letting on a few other names. You know, the Rothchild

472
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 5: family is among the top five contributors to Jeffrey Ebstein and.

473
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 4: They're big deal four year though the what were they paying?

474
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, like what were they giving him money for that?

475
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 5: I just don't get it in several instances, and it

476
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,959
Speaker 5: could be veiled. Listen, you can call things, but it

477
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 5: was for for managing my money.

478
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 4: And I'm going to pay, you know.

479
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 2: Getting him a sweet idea living not paying taxes like

480
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 2: the rest of us chumps. You know, Hey, we're going

481
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: to make you avoid taxes. We're going to open This

482
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: is allegedly. I'm not accusing us of the roths trials,

483
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 2: but this is the name that was given. And the

484
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 2: stick is LLC's having companies that are bunk, having you know,

485
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: fake this and fake that that you manage money in

486
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 2: and out and therefore you're skirting so much of your

487
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 2: tax needs. Meanwhile they're making all the money and not

488
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: paying taxes on it and doing egregious thing to young

489
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: girls and poise. At what point, like, we're the idiot's

490
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: payarent all the stuff stressing about the.

491
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: Bill at Albertson's right.

492
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, well these names, none of these names are stressing

493
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 5: about their albletson bills.

494
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 4: That is for positive. Leon Black also came up.

495
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 5: We've spoken at him, billionaire co founder of Apollo Global Manager.

496
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: He's the biggest one.

497
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: To me, that's like, weep, we have to deep dive

498
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 2: because that I think is going to tie the UFO.

499
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

500
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: I keep looking for a connection with Apollo and a

501
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 3: lot applied technologies or whatever. Yeah, I mean I'm going

502
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 3: to get into the plasma anyway.

503
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 4: Uh Yeah.

504
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 5: And investigators they've looked at about forty four thousand financial documents.

505
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 5: They've subpoened JP, Morrigan, Chase, and Deutsche Bank. They've received

506
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 5: suspicious activity reports and to the Treasury and listen, we've

507
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 5: talked about on this show. The there have been many

508
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 5: real outings of these banks knowledge. I mean, these banks knew.

509
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 5: It's not a question they knew. God, buddy, you have a.

510
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: Question about the account't so he said in this Oversight

511
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 3: Committee hearing that he didn't. If he had known that

512
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein was this guy, he would have quit immediately, right, correct,

513
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 3: But didn't He also help create victims compensation funds, So

514
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 3: he knew what do you mean, There's.

515
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: No way the accountant couldn't possibly have known what any

516
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 2: of these hush amounts were for.

517
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 3: He paid out over one hundred and twenty million dollars,

518
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 3: He resolved claims from more than one hundred and thirty

519
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: women and settled nearly sixty so he had to have

520
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: known something. Yeah, but did this happen later later?

521
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 5: I think, I think that's the I think that's it's

522
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 5: a timing thing.

523
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,439
Speaker 4: And I don't have the dates in front.

524
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 5: I don't either, Yeah of me, but yes, that would

525
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 5: that was an afterthing that he was the one you

526
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 5: manage and ps that was not out of the kindness

527
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 5: of you know, at Epstein's behest from beyond the grave.

528
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: It was because of the many lawsuits that Epstein had lost.

529
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: Right, And I keep in mind he was basically, you know,

530
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: in Layman's normy terms, he had several very high profile

531
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: clients that had him on some sort of a retainer

532
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: of sorts. Now we've seen the conversations about those retainers.

533
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: If he was like threatening, if you don't give me

534
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: what I want, Epstein to others, then this is where

535
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 2: I think the blackmail piece also is really important. Remember

536
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 2: honey potting, getting information. This is where the double agent

537
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: stuff goes. If you're being funded by multiple sources on

538
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 2: a regular basis, for air quotes, money management.

539
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: Remember this guy, he didn't even get out of college.

540
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 4: He was like a fraud.

541
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 2: He's a grift. This guy is a con right by

542
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: his own admission. I was just looking at like childhood

543
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: teenage photos of him, which I can't wait to share

544
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: with you guys. And you could see it there too.

545
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 2: This guy was like always walk in the walk with

546
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: surrounding was exactly he's with rockers. Oh suddenly he looks

547
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: like he's in a rock band, like seeing Jeffrey Epstein

548
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: with big hair, a chameleon, like the talented mister Ripley

549
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: of sorts. Right, so now you get these big, big

550
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: big fish on the hook. That's a steady income, baby.

551
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: This guy was dealing in the billions. You know, the

552
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: Rothschild's account alone would have to be the billions. You know,

553
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: they create the all the banks the end.

554
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: I mean, that's always the name that you hear when

555
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: you hear about like the Vanderbilts, and you hear about

556
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: the Rothchilds, Right, they're like the big money, you know.

557
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: I mean, if you're managing that kind of money, I mean,

558
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: you got to have a good accountant. I just can't

559
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:40,959
Speaker 3: imagine that this guy didn't know.

560
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: I just I don't know, or you have a real

561
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: like lousy one because you can boss them around and

562
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: they won't ask too many questions.

563
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: And they're getting paid good money to be able.

564
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: To getting paid good money to look the other way.

565
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: And I guess that's also like the choice everybody has

566
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: to really talk to themselves about, just like, really, where

567
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: is our line? Like what would you do? What would

568
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: you want nothing to do?

569
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: I know one of the other names that I thought

570
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: was very interesting, we've heard this name before. He mentioned

571
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 3: financial dealings with the former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barack

572
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: or one of his entities, but he couldn't remember any

573
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 3: of the details, which is interesting. But that goes back

574
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: to the double agent theory, right exactly.

575
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 2: Many victims have also accused of allegedly somebody in that

576
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 2: space of you know, really hideous crimes, and you know,

577
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: it seems like a lot of things. I've never imagined

578
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: a person could be so compromised everywhere like he was

579
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: compromising people in every category academia, medical, legal, I mean

580
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: his lawyer, political, world policy, arms deals. You know, he

581
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: was in science, like he was talking about you know,

582
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: genetics and how to pro create and create a master race.

583
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: So this guy was needee.

584
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 3: Well to create the perfect human, right, the perfect human.

585
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 4: DNA. I think that.

586
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: We all are the perfect humans, and you know we

587
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: should all be banning together and just remembering that.

588
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 3: Well, I hope we'll remember that.

589
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: And back by popular demands, we have Amanda Knox, who

590
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: we've gotten so much amazing, amazing feedback of that. We're

591
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 2: so glad you're here. Number one. You're doing a lot

592
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: right now, oh I don entrepreneur, journalist, writer, podcaster, and

593
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: also really cracking into a major case. I mean, this

594
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: lucy let Be case is no joke. So yeah, I

595
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: don't even know where to begin, but we're so glad

596
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: to see you, first and foremost, Yes, thanks, thanks so much.

597
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, this case is one that has been on my

598
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 9: radar for a long time. It's actually a long time coming,

599
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 9: and it's a case that found me. I was not

600
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 9: looking for lucy let Be. Lucy let Be found me,

601
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 9: and it was primarily from people who were in Britain

602
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 9: as this case was unfolding, especially as it was unfolding

603
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 9: in the tabloid headlines, and what caught my eye was

604
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 9: when people said, oh, my gosh, we have never seen

605
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 9: this kind of a vilification of a woman in the

606
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 9: headlines since your case. And so I went, okay, tell

607
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 9: me more.

608
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 4: We have so many questions.

609
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 5: First, I want to just catch a couple of people

610
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 5: up if they need it.

611
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 4: So Amanda Knox.

612
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 5: So she became recognizable as excuse me, one of the

613
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 5: most recognizable figures in modern true crime, after being accused

614
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 5: of murdering her roommate, you might remember, and that was

615
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 5: the British student Meredith Percher. This happened while studying abroad

616
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 5: in Italy back in two thousand and seven, and Amanda

617
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 5: was convicted and spent nearly four years in prison before

618
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 5: that conviction was ultimately overturned by Italy's highest court in

619
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 5: twenty fifteen, and that ruling was she did not commit

620
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 5: the crime period the end. But Amanda's case was a

621
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 5: global media phenomenon and it sparked ongoing debates about investigative

622
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 5: methods and media narratives wrongful convictions, which I think leads

623
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 5: us exactly to what you were saying with the Lucy

624
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 5: let Be case.

625
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 4: They came looking for you. So, yeah, how did that start?

626
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, so initially when I was approached it was by

627
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 9: people who it was shortly after she had been convicted.

628
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 9: So the backstory of this whole case is this hospital

629
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 9: in Chester, the Countess of Chester Hospital, in twenty fifteen

630
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 9: and twenty sixteen, sees a suspicious rise in the deaths

631
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 9: of premature babies, so very very fragile, sick babies, like

632
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 9: babies that are born at twenty five weeks, like very

633
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 9: very fragile human beings. This neonatal unit that is taking

634
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 9: care of these babies is noticing that instead of having

635
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 9: two or three babies die a year, they're seeing two

636
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 9: or three babies die a month, and they start freaking out, justifiably.

637
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 9: They go what's going on? And ultimately what happens is

638
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 9: the doctors take a look at the nursing staff and

639
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 9: they go, well, here is one nurse who has been

640
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 9: on duty during all of these babies deaths. It must

641
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 9: be her, and she must be a serial killer. And

642
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 9: they go to the police. They tell the police this story.

643
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 9: They advocate for a criminal investigation, and that unfolds. It's

644
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 9: called Operation Hummingbird. And over the course of that whole experience,

645
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 9: they end up finding a retired doctor, so one single

646
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 9: medical expert who comes to the table and says, I

647
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 9: know all of these you know deaths have been ruled

648
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 9: you know, natural causes, but I can tell that they

649
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 9: were all murders. And here's how I here's how I'll

650
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 9: tell you. So he he postulates a bunch of different

651
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 9: ways that this nurse might have killed these babies, from

652
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 9: injecting air into their stomachs, to injecting air into their veins,

653
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 9: to injecting them with insulin, just a number of different

654
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 9: pathologies that she has performed. The catch is, though, that

655
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 9: no one has ever seen her do anything. And as

656
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 9: it turns out, like all of this medical evidence is

657
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 9: really complicated and it is very ambiguous. And furthermore, these

658
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 9: like the really compelling piece of evidence that the prosecution

659
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 9: brought into court was this chart that said, like, okay,

660
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 9: here's all the nurses on staff, all the babies who died.

661
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 9: Look who's the only common denominator, lucy let be Well,

662
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 9: they didn't show all the babies that died. They only

663
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 9: showed all the babies that died while she was on

664
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 9: duty to say that she was the one who was

665
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 9: murdering them or more, they didn't show all of the

666
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 9: doctors who happened to be on duty, So like it

667
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 9: was a very like to me. So what came to

668
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 9: me was a number of people who were worried on

669
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 9: the medical side of things, and then on the statistical

670
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 9: side of things. It was primarily first the statisticians, the

671
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 9: ones who are looking at like this chart, going wait

672
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 9: a second, you're painting a pic. You're doing this thing.

673
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,840
Speaker 9: That's a cognitive bias, and that's an actual statistical error,

674
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 9: which is you look at a random scattering of data

675
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 9: and then you circle the ones that look closest together

676
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 9: and say this this is meaningful, when actually could it

677
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 9: could be random? And what's fascinating about this case is

678
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 9: it's not one of those cases where we have a

679
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 9: definitive answer ultimately, because so much of this evidence is

680
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 9: like really difficult, ambiguous medical evidence. You have to look

681
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 9: at not just how sick were the babies, but how

682
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 9: sick were the mothers when they were pregnant with these babies. Like,

683
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 9: there's so many factors that could have led to this

684
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 9: rise in deaths, including difficulties in the hospital, staffing shortages.

685
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 9: There was there was evidence of there being leaks of

686
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 9: bacteria in the hospital, so rises and infections. So there

687
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 9: are other reasonable things that people can look to to

688
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 9: finding an answer. But I think that they lead you

689
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 9: to question the validity of the hospital, the validity of

690
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 9: the doctors, the validity of these institutions. Instead, they were

691
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 9: eager to find fault in a single individual, and I think,

692
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 9: what there's a danger here of that being the case.

693
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 9: And it's yeah, go ahead.

694
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: You mentioned this medical You mentioned this medical doctor that

695
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 3: had retired. He was basically the prosecutors like star witness. Yes,

696
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 3: was that the Dewey Evans person?

697
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 9: That was Dowie Evans. Yes, and yeah, Dowie Evans. And

698
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 9: he was an interesting character because he had long since

699
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 9: retired and he had never actually set foot in this hospital.

700
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 9: He was just given the medical notes about these babies,

701
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,919
Speaker 9: and he said that he was able to determine within

702
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 9: ten minutes how these babies were murdered, when previous doctors

703
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 9: and pathologists had not been able to determine whether or

704
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 9: not they had been murdered at all. So it's just

705
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 9: it's really interesting his level of confidence when it seemed

706
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 9: like it was he was sort of motivated when he

707
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 9: came forward to the like to the prosecution and to

708
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,919
Speaker 9: the police to say, you need a medical expert, I'll

709
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:31,479
Speaker 9: be your guy.

710
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

711
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 3: So like he okay, so because even post trial other experts,

712
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: medical experts, they criticized his assessment then said that it

713
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 3: was medically implausible right for the babies to have died

714
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 3: the way Dowie Evans thought they did.

715
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 9: Wow, yes, and in fact it's Dowie Evans cited a

716
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,160
Speaker 9: medical paper as part like a research paper in the

717
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 9: medical field, as part of his proof to say, oh,

718
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 9: this is how these babies were were murdered. There was

719
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,959
Speaker 9: a patterns of like patchy blotches on the baby's skin,

720
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 9: and that was supposed to be proof of like an

721
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 9: air embolism. Well, he cited this paper as proof of

722
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 9: that being the effect. Well, the person who actually wrote

723
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 9: this paper, the one who had actually done the research,

724
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 9: came forward to say, doctor Dowie Evans has completely misunderstood

725
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 9: my research and has come forward to say, no, this

726
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 9: is not proof at all. In fact, it proves the opposite.

727
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 9: So it's led like that particular doctor coming forward, along

728
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 9: with a whole team of doctors, neonatologists, specialists in the

729
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 9: field who have come forward to question the validity of

730
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 9: the evidence and to argue that there's no evidence that

731
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,240
Speaker 9: anyone was killed at all. Is it's been a huge

732
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 9: controversial thing in the UK because and I think the

733
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 9: thing that makes this case so interesting is it's one

734
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 9: of those it's a very tip case for how a

735
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 9: woman is wrongly convicted, right like the way I was

736
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 9: wrongly convicted is very unusual when it comes to women, because,

737
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 9: first of all, a young woman was raped and murdered.

738
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 9: It's not typical that a woman is accused of a

739
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 9: rape and a murder. But here we go, that's what

740
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 9: happened to me. What we know for a fact is

741
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 9: that a crime actually happened, and ultimately we were able

742
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 9: to determine who committed that crime. But in the cases

743
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 9: of women, the vast majority of times that women are

744
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 9: wrongly convicted, it's because something ambiguous happens, and often it

745
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 9: has to do with children. So and immediately the assumption

746
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 9: is one of their caretakers, and typically the caretaker who

747
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 9: was most recently in their vicinity is held responsible, and

748
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 9: that's the mother or the babysitter or you know, the nanny.

749
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 9: That is a very typical thing that happens, where a

750
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 9: woman is held accountable for a crime that never occurred

751
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 9: because of an ambiguous we're not quite sure exactly what happened,

752
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 9: but we don't like the looks of that woman. She's

753
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 9: not behaving correctly, she's you know she we don't. There's

754
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 9: just like there's something off about her. And that's where

755
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 9: we see all the hallmarks of a potential wrongful conviction

756
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 9: in this case.

757
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 2: That's so interesting because just to that end, as a mother,

758
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: a mother's or anybody on a jury, it's like that

759
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: is really like the sin, right, like a mother hurting

760
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: your child. It's like, oh my goodness. So it enrages

761
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: It's like something everybody could agree on for joy to

762
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: have that be targeted and you know, that's a tough

763
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: one to come back from.

764
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 9: Oh absolutely, And I think that's what's so Another interesting

765
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 9: factor of this case is how the media played a

766
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 9: role in this because as opposed to it in Italy,

767
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 9: where people were allowed to do like tons of really

768
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 9: salacious coverage from the moment of my arrest up until

769
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 9: my conviction and beyond. In the UK, they have restrictions

770
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 9: around how you can report on a case that is

771
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 9: currently being being tried in a court room. And so

772
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 9: it was really the story was really on lockdown for

773
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 9: a long time. Basically, Lucy was arrested and she you know,

774
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 9: the news came out that she was arrested and she

775
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 9: was accused, but no one really knew the details of

776
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 9: the case until she was convicted, and by then the

777
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 9: narrative around that conviction had fully solidified. So there was

778
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 9: just here's all the facts of the case, but the

779
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 9: main headline is this is a this is a human

780
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 9: monster who deserves to rotten hell. And like the headlines

781
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 9: were just extremely hard line about that child murderer, like

782
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,879
Speaker 9: the worst of the worst human being gets all these

783
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 9: life sentences, And it really shut the door on any

784
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 9: kind of scrutiny into how the evidence was presented in court,

785
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 9: whether or not there was an effective assistance of counsel

786
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 9: in this case, whether or not she had gotten she

787
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 9: received a proper defense, and so and even like when

788
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 9: it was first brought to my attention, I remember like

789
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 9: poking around a little bit, like reaching out to various

790
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 9: like journal like journalism. You know people that I knew

791
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 9: at the BBC or whatever, and everyone was like, Amanda,

792
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 9: we can't talk about this case. It is so controversial,

793
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 9: like no one can touch this case. It is like

794
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 9: it and that to me is like the fascinating to

795
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,360
Speaker 9: do it well, but it's it's fascinating, but it's also

796
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 9: like this this ongoing problem that we have of like

797
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 9: in emotionally charged cases, how do we hold how do

798
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 9: we as a society hold on to presumption of innocence,

799
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,799
Speaker 9: the right to scrutinize cases, while also acknowledging a tremendously

800
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 9: emotionally charged case that has like potentially super traumatized families

801
00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 9: and victims. Like there's this this tension between between closure

802
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 9: and certainty and true and that is where I think

803
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 9: we should be able to have compassion and hold all

804
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 9: those things both at once. But they're often met in

805
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 9: opposition to each other, and people feel like they can't

806
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 9: speak out. Nurses who felt like this, this young nurse

807
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 9: is being railroad. It felt like they could not speak

808
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 9: out about it because they would lose their jobs, They

809
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 9: would lose their they would lose not just their careers

810
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 9: but their social standing they their friends.

811
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 2: It was yeah, exactly actually true. I mean even we're

812
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,959
Speaker 2: talking about a case even earlier in the show about

813
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: a mother in court, and by the way, even speaking

814
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: for myself, you put it together and you're like, oh,

815
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: this is you know, how dare she? But it's you know,

816
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: we're not there, And that is the perspective piece of

817
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: it that I think, even just for everyone listening, that

818
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: we all have to check ourselves on. You know, that

819
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: is the we're unpacking stuff because it reminds us maybe

820
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: in some ways, of some in our own life that

821
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 2: we can unpack or we can organize the world, and

822
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: somehow that's comforting. But in reality, you know, these are

823
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 2: real lives with real problems. In context and perspective is everything.

824
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 9: Yeah, and I find it troubling when for me, I

825
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 9: think it's a very extraordinary when a young woman with

826
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 9: no history of violence, no history of mental illness, and

827
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 9: absolutely no motive is suddenly cast as Britain's greatest greatest

828
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 9: serial killer. I have to pause and go, where did

829
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 9: that come from? And do we actually feel justified in that?

830
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 4: Well?

831
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, because she didn't did this commission that the case

832
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 3: got submitted to the panelist of like fourteen independent experts

833
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: found that there was no evidence that she committed any harm.

834
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: Is that right?

835
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,240
Speaker 4: That is correct?

836
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: Yes?

837
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 3: Wow? And she was still convicted. Yeah, well, this is

838
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 3: something that we add into. This is something that we're

839
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 3: going to have to get into after the commercial. But

840
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 3: I want to know something kind of important and it

841
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 3: did things change after she was taken in? Did the

842
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: babies do you know what I mean? Did babies continue

843
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 3: to die? Or did the hospital make corrections to their environment?

844
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 3: There's a lot of I mean, I have a lot

845
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: of questions about this case.

846
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 5: Yes, there are a lot more questions coming up, is right?

847
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 5: And luckily Damanda Knox is sticking with us as we

848
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 5: dig deeper into the Lucy let Bee case and the

849
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 5: larger questions it raises so many about how public narratives

850
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 5: form in major trials. Yeah, keep it here. True Crime Tonight,

851
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 5: we were talking true crime all the time.

852
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

853
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

854
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: Courtney Arms, Strong Body move in, and Amanda Knox is

855
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 2: back with us. Listen.

856
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 4: She checks every category.

857
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,760
Speaker 2: She's a journalist, a writer, an advocate and exonery listen

858
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: a mom. She's raising her life now in new days

859
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: and what critical times would be doing that. Also, she

860
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 2: has her own podcast, hard Knocks, and also another that's

861
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: based on this case that we were just discussing. That

862
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 2: really raises a lot of doubt. Perfect name for a title,

863
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: so right, doubt And that's I guess at its core, right,

864
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: you know, we have to just not we have to

865
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 2: check our biases, right, So that, I guess is one

866
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:40,439
Speaker 2: of those cases that we all could learn from.

867
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 4: In fact, we have a talkback right now.

868
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 6: Hey, this is Lisa from Pittsburg. Amanda Ox. You are

869
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 6: a hero, an inspiration, full stop. One thing I noticed

870
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 6: on the show was that the police searched with the

871
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 6: warrant with the house members. I like that, So nothing

872
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 6: could be planted with your experience in the system. What

873
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 6: is one thing about their system that you would want

874
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,439
Speaker 6: to see implemented here? And then vice versa, What would

875
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 6: you like to see implemented there that we have here?

876
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 2: Mmm?

877
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 4: This is a vertical question.

878
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's great because when I was going through everything

879
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 9: in Italy, I had zero knowledge about either the American

880
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 9: or the Italian system. So I had to just like

881
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 9: learn on the fly what's the different system and what

882
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 9: the rules are, and so I think, yeah, And since

883
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 9: coming home, I've been able to meet other wrongly convicted people.

884
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 9: I've been able to talk with prosecutors and defendants and

885
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 9: criminal justices advocates. So I know a lot more about

886
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 9: the system that I ever thought I would want to.

887
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 9: And there are some really interesting differences. One thing that

888
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 9: we do here in the United States that I think

889
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 9: is very valuable. It's imperfectly exercised or implemented, but a

890
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 9: very important thing in our adversarial system is that there

891
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 9: is some level of separation between the police and the prosecution.

892
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 9: Right Like, the police are the ones who investigate the case,

893
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 9: and they put the case together and then they bring

894
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 9: it to the prosecution as a kind of check against hey,

895
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 9: is this a prosecutable case? And technically the prosecution is

896
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 9: supposed to be that check. In Italy, they don't have that.

897
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 9: The prosecution is leading the investigation. There's no separation between

898
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 9: the police and the prosecution, so that check and balance

899
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 9: doesn't take place. One thing that they do in Italy, though,

900
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 9: that I think is incredibly smart, that we do not

901
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 9: do here is in Italy, all verdicts have to be motivated,

902
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 9: meaning that any verdict that is handed down by a

903
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 9: court of law has to come with a written explanation

904
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 9: for how that verdict was they came to that verdict.

905
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 9: So the jury and the judge deliberate, they come to

906
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 9: their conclusion, and they have ninety days to deliver a

907
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 9: fully written out, like over one hundred page document going

908
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 9: through each and every piece of evidence and saying this

909
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 9: is what we found compelling, this is what we found

910
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 9: not compelling, this is how we came to our determination.

911
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 9: It's a very transparent verdict process, which allows it makes

912
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 9: it more possible for appeals to take place because a

913
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 9: you know, a new judge can look at that motivation

914
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 9: document and can see that potentially a witness it later recanted,

915
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 9: or there was there was the determination of what DNA

916
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 9: evidence to decide upon that wasn't really justified. Like, there

917
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 9: are lots of ways that you can approach an appeal

918
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 9: when you actually know how the verdict was deliberated on.

919
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 9: Here in the United States, it's considered sacred and secret.

920
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 9: We don't know how the jury deliberated, and we don't

921
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,799
Speaker 9: know how they decided we just have to guess yes true,

922
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,839
Speaker 9: and it makes it really difficult, and it really up

923
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 9: to the discretion of any judge any day whether or

924
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 9: not you have a real chance at an appeal.

925
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 10: So can I jump in and Amanda, I want to

926
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 10: ask you a question. We talked to got to sort

927
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 10: of go back to the Lucy let Be case, and

928
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 10: last night we talked a little bit about it, and

929
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,359
Speaker 10: there was one thing I just had a hard time

930
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 10: getting passed, which was correctly if I'm wrong, But the

931
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 10: authorities found a note in her house that said, I

932
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 10: am evil I did this. Yes, that was something I

933
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 10: just really had Can you help me understand that or

934
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 10: unpact that.

935
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 9: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. Because prior to

936
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 9: Lucy being arrested for this crime she was getting she

937
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 9: was basically being harassed by her colleagues, her the doctors

938
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 9: at the hospital. We're trying to get her fired for misconduct.

939
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 9: They were like, we this nurse, we were suspicious of her,

940
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 9: were trying to get her out of here. She was

941
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 9: defending herself against them, but obviously like she's being accused

942
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,720
Speaker 9: of doing harming innocent babies and is reacting really strongly

943
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 9: to this is sort of having an emotional breakdown. She

944
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 9: goes to her therapist, and her therapist tells her, write

945
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 9: down everything that you're thinking and feeling. Just get it out,

946
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 9: because right now it's just all in your head. Just

947
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:18,919
Speaker 9: get it out.

948
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 2: And so she.

949
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 9: Has and she has friends who who also attest to

950
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 9: this that they were also taught this method of therapy

951
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 9: of just write down all of your thoughts, any thought

952
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 9: that comes into your head, just to get it out.

953
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 11: Yeah.

954
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 9: So they found lots of pieces of paper with lots

955
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 9: of things scribbled on it, including I didn't do this,

956
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 9: I hadn't why are they doing this to me? But

957
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 9: they cherry picked the pieces of paper where she's wrote

958
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 9: down things like I did this, I'm a bad person,

959
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,479
Speaker 9: which are not the same thing as a confession. Those

960
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 9: could be just her vocalizing what other people are saying

961
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 9: about her and her like processing this thing. So I

962
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 9: think that's another really interesting piece of this case is

963
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 9: how her behavior or these little like minor pieces of

964
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,479
Speaker 9: evidence were either cherry picked and then twisted to mean

965
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 9: more than they were, or her behavior in my own case,

966
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 9: and an ambiguous behavior like for instance, going on Facebook

967
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 9: and looking up the families of these babies who had died, right,

968
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 9: she's going online to check out these families online to

969
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 9: see to see how they're doing. Now, some people look

970
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 9: at that is as somebody who's concerned and is invested

971
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 9: in the lives of these people who she's a part

972
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 9: of their life. Other people look at that as her

973
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 9: gloating over the tragedy, over having murdered these babies and

974
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 9: sort of stalking the families online. Depending on how you

975
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 9: want to look at it, you can put you can

976
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,279
Speaker 9: have an opinion about it. But the ultimate fact is

977
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 9: you have a piece of paper. What is it a

978
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 9: confession or is it just her processing this very negative

979
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 9: experience that's happening to her. It's not the same thing

980
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 9: as her going to a police officer and saying, take

981
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 9: me in, I'm out of control, I'm hurting babies. I confess,

982
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 9: here's how I did it. That is not what happened.

983
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,560
Speaker 9: And so whenever she was questioned about this by the police,

984
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 9: she always one hundred percent maintained that she had no

985
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 9: idea how these babies died. She always did her best,

986
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 9: and she was very sad, but she didn't do anything wrong. So,

987
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 9: but if corse, a lot was made and it was

988
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 9: a very big headline. Everyone's zooming in on that one

989
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 9: little scrap of paper, ignoring all the others.

990
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, well answered, if you're just joining us, this is

991
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 5: a true crime tonight and we're so lucky to be

992
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:51,320
Speaker 5: here with Amanda Knox. And Amanda, among many other things,

993
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 5: is talking about her new podcast out now called Doubt

994
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 5: The Case of Lucy let Be. So, Amanda, do you

995
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 5: want to talk about so of what your process was

996
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,759
Speaker 5: in deciding to do the podcast and how what was

997
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 5: the process over time that came to build the podcast.

998
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

999
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 9: So, like I said, I was initially a lot of

1000
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 9: people started reaching out to me after her conviction to

1001
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 9: say they were really concerned that an injustice had taken

1002
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 9: place and here was a young woman who had no

1003
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 9: history of violence, no motive, no history of any kind

1004
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 9: of mental illness, who was suddenly being cast as the

1005
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 9: worst serial killer Britain had ever seen. And so they said, Amanda, like,

1006
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 9: we need you to look into this case. We think something,

1007
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 9: something really bad is happening to this woman. And I

1008
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 9: think that they knew that I would be someone who

1009
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 9: would be very open and considering that an injustice had

1010
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 9: happened and I think they were concerned about finding someone

1011
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 9: like me who would be open to that idea, because

1012
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 9: in Great Britain, the very like anyone who questioned the

1013
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 9: her conviction after the trial was over was considered a

1014
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 9: crackpot conspiracy theorist idiot who was just trying to torture

1015
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,280
Speaker 9: the families of these poor innocent children who were murdered.

1016
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 9: And so they reached out to me, and I had

1017
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 9: to have a moment of checking myself, because a lot

1018
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 9: of people reach out to me to ask me to

1019
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 9: look into their cases. And I have made the mistake

1020
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 9: before of believing in someone's innocence until I fully delved

1021
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 9: into the DNA evidence of the case, the very sticky,

1022
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 9: tricky blood evidence of a case, and I realized that

1023
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 9: I was wrong, and I had to do a huge

1024
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 9: maya culpa. I wrote a big Atlantic article about having

1025
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 9: made this mistake and realizing the mistake and trying to

1026
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 9: write the mistake. And I think that that was a

1027
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:01,280
Speaker 9: very important exercise for me as an advocate like I

1028
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 9: I'm so glad that I learned that lesson, and also

1029
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 9: that I kind of learned that lesson very publicly, in

1030
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 9: the sense that like it was. I think it's very

1031
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,560
Speaker 9: important for people who are charged with finding the truth

1032
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 9: to like hold themselves accountable. And so here I was

1033
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 9: with a story that came to to me that I

1034
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 9: think people knew that I would be sort of preconditioned

1035
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 9: to having sympathy for this woman who was being utterly

1036
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 9: vilified in the press using very scandalous overtones without like

1037
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 9: any true understanding of even if she were guilty, what

1038
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 9: her motives might be, like just sort of fantastic, fantasty

1039
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 9: something mental health was going on or he knows, yeah,

1040
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 9: and you don't know. And of course people are sort

1041
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 9: of armchair diagnosing from afar when in fact there's no

1042
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 9: history of her having any kind of medical disorder. So

1043
00:57:56,400 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 9: it's I like was primed to believe her. But I

1044
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 9: also knew that I could not just go into this

1045
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 9: case thinking this is a wrongful conviction case.

1046
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 3: So you recognized your own like confirmation bias here, right, Oh, yes,

1047
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 3: you recognized it. You faced it all, and that's what

1048
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 3: you have to do. Yes, we can recognize it. You

1049
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 3: came to terms with it, you wreck it, you know,

1050
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 3: you voiced it in Now you're looking at this one,

1051
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: and how do you set aside that, how do you

1052
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 3: set aside your own biases for maybe falsely accused women.

1053
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 9: Well, so, I so what what I do is I,

1054
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 9: first of all, I recognize the hallmarks of how women

1055
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 9: get wrongly convicted and also vilified. And there's a particular

1056
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 9: way that women are vilified. Very often. We are vilified

1057
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 9: through our reproducted reproductive function. So we're either highly sexualized

1058
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 9: or we are highly like we are turned into monsters

1059
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 9: from who murder children like that that is the narrative.

1060
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 9: And I look at right where the wicked girl who

1061
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 9: the wicked woman who snaps. That's very typical, especially when

1062
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 9: you hear cases of women who like hurt children. Is

1063
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 9: the ideas that just one day they were totally totally fine,

1064
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 9: everything was fine, and then one day they snapped. You

1065
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 9: hear that snapped all the time. There's a whole like

1066
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 9: genre of stories of women TV shows, TV show called snap.

1067
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 9: So there is that history in our conscious like in

1068
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 9: our social consciousness, of women who snap. So maybe they

1069
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 9: don't have a history of violence, maybe they don't have

1070
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 9: a motive, but like maybe women just snap. That's just

1071
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 9: an idea that's out there. I'm very skeptical of when

1072
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 9: people sort of put that, because I feel like that's

1073
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 9: an easy answer for we don't know why this happened,

1074
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 9: if it did indeed happen, So instead I have to

1075
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 9: look at this case and I go, Okay, well what

1076
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 9: do we actually know? So what was presented at trial

1077
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 9: was that there was no other explanation for how these

1078
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 9: children could have died, and in fact, there is a

1079
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 9: very clear you know, this is this is how this

1080
01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 9: baby died. This is how that baby died. Thought it

1081
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 9: was very interesting that this supposed serial killer didn't have

1082
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 9: just one way that she murdered, like there was right,

1083
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 9: Like supposedly there are all these different modus operandie, including

1084
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 9: injecting children with insulin, which I find fast. Like I

1085
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 9: have a sister who is in the medical field, who

1086
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 9: works in a hospital. She tells me that nobody can

1087
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 9: just get their hands on insulin. Every nurse has to

1088
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 9: like tap in to get any kind of medication. So

1089
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 9: the idea that she would just have insulin out there,

1090
01:00:44,640 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 9: Like there were lots of reasons why I felt like

1091
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 9: there was too much confidence on the part of this

1092
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 9: one medical expert for the prosecution to claim that he

1093
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 9: knew exactly how these babies died when it was actually

1094
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 9: quite ambiguous. And then beyond that, I was really interested

1095
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 9: in how the statistical evidence that was used in this case.

1096
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 9: So these charts that show only she could have done

1097
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 9: it because she was the only nurse who had done

1098
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 9: on the like, had been there when all the babies died, Well,

1099
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 9: that was just false. That that was just actually manufactured

1100
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 9: by the prosecution to present an idea that was not

1101
01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 9: actually true. And statisticians were the first to recognize it

1102
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:29,200
Speaker 9: and call foul. And that to me left me feeling like, Okay,

1103
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 9: in this case, we certainly don't have proof of innocence,

1104
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 9: but we also certainly don't have of guilt, and what

1105
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 9: do we do about that?

1106
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 12: Right?

1107
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 3: And go ahead, Courtney, I'm sorry, I'm listening to this podcast.

1108
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:55,320
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in this case. I just like that yesterday.

1109
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 3: Very interested.

1110
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 5: So great listen and we literally can't thank you enough

1111
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:06,120
Speaker 5: for joining us again. Yeah, it's such a it's such

1112
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 5: a pleasure to speak with you and hear your perspective. Okay,

1113
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 5: we will take you up on that tomorrow and listen everyone.

1114
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 5: Amanda hosts the podcast Hard Knocks as well as her

1115
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 5: new podcast Doubt The case of Lucy let Be. We

1116
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 5: know everyone will be talking in us first and they're

1117
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 5: available on substack wherever you get your podcasts. So thank

1118
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 5: your relations.

1119
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 3: Forget it, keep it here True Crime Tonight. We'll be

1120
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 3: right back.

1121
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1122
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

1123
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in huge thanks to Amanda Knock. Listen.

1124
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 2: She is so compelling. Honestly, it's the perfect person to

1125
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 2: have examining cases from that level because she does she

1126
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 2: has an experience that must have been so incredibly harrowing.

1127
01:03:11,320 --> 01:03:15,640
Speaker 2: It's actually sickening when I think about her experience in Italy.

1128
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: And by the way, I remember not working in true

1129
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 2: crime at that time. I remember that case kind of

1130
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 2: in the background, you know, so long ago. But the

1131
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 2: assertion of her being guilty was sort of just in

1132
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 2: the air, you know, was sort of how it was

1133
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:30,400
Speaker 2: being consumed and absorbed.

1134
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 3: It was generally accepted that she was guilty, right Yeah, and.

1135
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 2: Like she's been exonerated, and the courage it takes to

1136
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 2: kind of stick in with that is like no other.

1137
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: But also we were saying in the break, she kind

1138
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 2: of you know, we were reminded, all of us. I

1139
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 2: just kind of talking about it with her, like how

1140
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: do we all make sure that we're keeping each other

1141
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,840
Speaker 2: in check, in ourselves in check, and how is she

1142
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 2: doing that? Because, yeah, you're human being. You bring a

1143
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 2: bias to things if.

1144
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 3: You're anything wrong for you, she're like a wrongly convicted person.

1145
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:04,560
Speaker 3: You might observe cases that might have similar you know,

1146
01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,760
Speaker 3: things about that and go, oh, she must be wrongly

1147
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,200
Speaker 3: convicted too. But she you know, it sounds like she

1148
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 3: is putting her biases aside, of course, and I think

1149
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:15,200
Speaker 3: it's really good. You know, she mentioned something really interesting.

1150
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 3: We had a great talk back. Thank you for that,

1151
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 3: by the way. And you know, she asked about there

1152
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 3: is one thing from Italy that you wish we did hear,

1153
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 3: and she mentioned about the jury. So in Italy they're

1154
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 3: very transparent with how the jury came to the decision

1155
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 3: they came with and the jury has to like submit

1156
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 3: this document saying you know, this is what we found

1157
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 3: compelling and this is what we didn't right. Did you

1158
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 3: guys know here that in many states they actually destroy

1159
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 3: the jury notes.

1160
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 11: I did not know that.

1161
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, in California. I don't know about every state, but

1162
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,480
Speaker 3: I know they do Pennsylvania, which is why I'm bringing

1163
01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 3: this up. In Pennsylvania and California, you know, jurors take

1164
01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 3: notes and they're allowed to reference them during deliberation, and

1165
01:05:01,320 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 3: in those two states, and there might be more, they

1166
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 3: literally destroy them. And in the case of the West

1167
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 3: Memphis three, it was critical that they got these jury

1168
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 3: notes because it helped retest some of this DNA. So

1169
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,080
Speaker 3: it is something and I didn't want to listen. I

1170
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 3: didn't want to interrupt Amanda. We only had so much

1171
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 3: time with her note. But it's such a big deal

1172
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 3: what she said about Italy and comparing it to United States,

1173
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 3: that we really need to look at.

1174
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: That's why they don't keep them though, is all the appeals.

1175
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 3: And the reason I bring it up.

1176
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,680
Speaker 2: Now the same reason that they're getting destroyed, I think

1177
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 2: is the conceit like me, because you know, appeals are

1178
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: expensive and they go on forever. So you know, looking

1179
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 2: at a note from yesteryear from somebody who may not

1180
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: even be alive to remember the conversation that was had

1181
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,960
Speaker 2: within a room on a hot July day based on

1182
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: what out of context, it's like scribble almost.

1183
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 3: Well, speaking of of scribble. So this is what happened

1184
01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 3: was in the West Memphis three case, a juror wrote

1185
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 3: down information that was never talked about in court, but

1186
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 3: that they had heard about in the paper, and she

1187
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 3: wrote it down and then she scribbled it out you know,

1188
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm paraphrasing here, and erased it. But when they so

1189
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:25,280
Speaker 3: when they got the copy of the notes, they could

1190
01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 3: see that the person had actually written it.

1191
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're like, try to go evidence. Yeah.

1192
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 5: Wow.

1193
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 3: So it's I think And the reason I bring it

1194
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 3: up live on the air is I think we shtopped

1195
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 3: Jarrett for Arvantino about it.

1196
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:40,240
Speaker 11: Okay, I agree.

1197
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 3: You know he's in Pennsylvania. He's a prosecutor, right, he's

1198
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 3: tried many murder cases. What does he think about that?

1199
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 3: And in Pennsylvania, my understanding of it is that's one

1200
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 3: of the states that they destroy the jury notes. As

1201
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 3: soon as deliberations done, they confiscate the notes and like

1202
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,400
Speaker 3: shred them. I don't know what they do with them.

1203
01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 3: They destroy them, and.

1204
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 2: You're somebody's got all those notes. But I always find

1205
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 2: it fascinating too, all of those cases that are in

1206
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 2: like brown boxes. I mean, we work in these cases

1207
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm always shocked that in the weird

1208
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 2: you know, closet from nineteen seventy three, there's still like

1209
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 2: a banker box with like evidence in it and files

1210
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 2: and handwritten notes and they just handed to you. You're like,

1211
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 2: where are all these boxes every single trial and the

1212
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 2: history of time? And you get why they have to

1213
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 2: be you know, cherished and kept sacred, you would hope,

1214
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 2: But it's a lot of space.

1215
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1216
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 3: I just feel like, listen. Of course, it's supposed to

1217
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 3: be private and kept secret, but it's a number. It's

1218
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 3: not like, you know, Stephanie Leidecker dur number four. It

1219
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 3: just says journals.

1220
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 4: No no, no, you're not saying.

1221
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 2: It's an unsafety issue. No no, I don't mean it

1222
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 2: that all looks safety for the juror. I meant just

1223
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 2: like a lot of stuff to hold on to till

1224
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 2: the end of days. Every case, every scribble now things

1225
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 2: to be done, probably electronically, and they can be scans.

1226
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 2: I was just referring to, like the actual evidence you're everywhere.

1227
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 3: They keep them for so long to keep thankfully, and

1228
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 3: it solves stuff I didn't mean to, you know, get

1229
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 3: away from it. But I wanted to say.

1230
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 11: That's something new I learned every show I learned now.

1231
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 2: I'm also just to add to that to Body's point. Also,

1232
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 2: what I thought was interesting too about the jurors is

1233
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 2: the fact that there isn't such a Law and Order.

1234
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 2: You know, we've all seen the TV show Law and Order.

1235
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 2: It's a cot and then and then they ended over

1236
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:36,160
Speaker 2: to the team. It's so good. So who doesn't love

1237
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 2: that show? Every episode never disappoints, So you know, there's

1238
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 2: a real separation, and therefore there should be fresh eyes

1239
01:08:43,240 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 2: with an unbiased look. But if you're the investigator and

1240
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 2: you're also you know, doing the trial as in her case,

1241
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 2: that's rough also to maintain a level of objectivity because

1242
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 2: you get in a rabbit hole, oh very much. And

1243
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 2: then of course you want to support whatever your This

1244
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 2: is just human nature, not even the farious actions. Is

1245
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 2: you have a theory and point A supports it, well,

1246
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,360
Speaker 2: then you're going to start and other things you can

1247
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:18,120
Speaker 2: fit in to support it exactly.

1248
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to be listening to this podcast to

1249
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 3: the new Amanda. This case is very interesting to me.

1250
01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 3: I really want to know did the hospital make you

1251
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 3: know did the hospital that these babies died in was

1252
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 3: it environmental? And did they make like construction efforts? And

1253
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,559
Speaker 3: that's what listen because after this lady was arrested or whatever,

1254
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 3: and no more babies died.

1255
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I'm going to be honest, last night I

1256
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 8: felt a completely different way about Lucy, Like I was like,

1257
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:44,800
Speaker 8: it's guilty.

1258
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 3: Oh no, I don't know how I feel. I think

1259
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 3: there's compelling things on both sides. So I want to

1260
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 3: listen to the podcast and see, you know what what

1261
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 3: we learn because you know, this commission has the case

1262
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,520
Speaker 3: now and it could this case, it could be overturned.

1263
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:03,679
Speaker 3: You know, they could say no, she was found guilty,

1264
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,640
Speaker 3: and that's what you know we stand with. I don't know.

1265
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:10,280
Speaker 3: I'm going to follow it because it's very interesting to me. Anyway,

1266
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 3: I love it.

1267
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 11: We have time to want to jump to a talk

1268
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,040
Speaker 11: back jump.

1269
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,120
Speaker 12: Hi, guys, it's cricket. You are talking about the senior

1270
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 12: prank that turned deadly as the school warning and not

1271
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 12: for nothing. But I'm fifty seven years old and they

1272
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 12: warned us about school pranks. It was just because they

1273
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 12: didn't want to clean up the mess. Let's be honest,

1274
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 12: this kid should not be tried for homicide. It was

1275
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 12: a tragic accident that he's already going to have to

1276
01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 12: live with for the rest of his life. Give him

1277
01:10:41,000 --> 01:10:41,439
Speaker 12: a break.

1278
01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, cricket, It's like you literally were listening in

1279
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:50,000
Speaker 5: on what we were saying over the commercial break. We

1280
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 5: were talking about was yeah and really similar, and I.

1281
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 2: Mean race also of you know, the widow surviving widow

1282
01:10:58,720 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 2: and his brother and you know, their kids are mourning

1283
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: and the whole school is mourning. But who did not

1284
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 2: do a toilet paper prank in high school or some

1285
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,759
Speaker 2: version of the dumbness that you do in high school.

1286
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 2: And now this this kid has to live with that forever.

1287
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,120
Speaker 2: There's a real vilon online too.

1288
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 4: One of the.

1289
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 3: Saddest parts about this the situation is that the teacher

1290
01:11:22,160 --> 01:11:25,439
Speaker 3: was excited about the prank. He knew what was coming,

1291
01:11:25,479 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 3: he knew the kids are going to be there, and

1292
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 3: he was like, you know, excited about it. It was

1293
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 3: something that he was looking forward to. And so I

1294
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 3: see him as kind of a playful guy, you know, like, oh,

1295
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to get him, you know, and I'm going

1296
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 3: to scare him when they you know, I'm going to

1297
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 3: jump out from the bushes. I don't know what he

1298
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 3: was going to do, but I can see him, and

1299
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:48,519
Speaker 3: I just see so many of my wonderful teachers who

1300
01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 3: I you know, credit so many things to in that teacher,

1301
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:54,519
Speaker 3: and they would have done that kind of thing, and

1302
01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 3: I just it's just so so so.

1303
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 8: Sad was saying earlier, how I learned something every show,

1304
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 8: and I was kind of embarrassed to say that I

1305
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 8: learned this last night. But I thought when the widow

1306
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:08,240
Speaker 8: dropped the charges, she was like, I don't want to

1307
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 8: press charges.

1308
01:12:09,320 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 11: I thought it was a done deal. I didn't realize

1309
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:11,759
Speaker 11: that they.

1310
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 3: Oh, no, somebody can't die. And then you just go,

1311
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 3: I don't know what.

1312
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:20,479
Speaker 8: The world that I lived in where I'm like, oh, great,

1313
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:24,200
Speaker 8: that's it, but I that the most problesome.

1314
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 2: That's the case sometimes with domestic violence case. Also oftentimes

1315
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:32,800
Speaker 2: somebody who makes the complaint will withdraw it because they

1316
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 2: love their abuser or they're wildly brainwashed or heartbroken or scared. Yeah,

1317
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:41,640
Speaker 2: so you know, sometimes the police have to step in

1318
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 2: and do their job. Regardless of who's voting. You can't

1319
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 2: not be compelled by, you know what a beautiful grieving

1320
01:12:50,160 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 2: widow who has you know, that much strength to be

1321
01:12:53,280 --> 01:12:54,559
Speaker 2: able to forgive like that.

1322
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 3: And you know, well she said that, you know, prosecuting

1323
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 3: this kid would go against like all the all the

1324
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 3: things that he believed in. He believed in these kids, right,

1325
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:07,519
Speaker 3: he believed in them. He wanted them to succeed.

1326
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 2: He was like the perfect teacher, and they all just

1327
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:13,200
Speaker 2: are forever changed, like every one of those kids. You know,

1328
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 2: you move on and it wasn't worse to heal from anything,

1329
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 2: but this is like a really bummer horrible thing to

1330
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:23,799
Speaker 2: be one of your initial stories in this world.

1331
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:26,519
Speaker 3: And the kid even said too, He's like, I'm going

1332
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:30,320
Speaker 3: to live the rest of my life in honor teacher.

1333
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 3: And we got emotional last night during the break after

1334
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 3: we told the story.

1335
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:38,439
Speaker 11: Oh I'm getting emotional again, he did.

1336
01:13:39,120 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 4: It's all that so beautiful.

1337
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 2: It's really emotional, it is, and it's worthy of it's

1338
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 2: here tragic, it's so worthy of it. And it's also

1339
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:51,439
Speaker 2: slightly inspiring to see that level of you know grace. Yeah,

1340
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 2: the brother, his brother, you know, coming forward and speaking

1341
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:58,400
Speaker 2: from the brother said the same, like.

1342
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,200
Speaker 4: That he was just he loved these kids.

1343
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 2: And you know, let the record show on behalf of

1344
01:14:02,200 --> 01:14:06,200
Speaker 2: the family that you know this was a tragedy and

1345
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 2: an accident, and that his brother loved these kids and

1346
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 2: these kids loved them, and you know, it's it was

1347
01:14:14,240 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 2: a real you know, it's like the kind of teacher

1348
01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 2: we all wish for, you know.

1349
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 3: So that I can only wish to have that much

1350
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 3: grace when you know your face with such just you know,

1351
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:26,920
Speaker 3: the worst day of your life. Right, Yes, we can

1352
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:30,719
Speaker 3: all aspire to be more like them in the face

1353
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,800
Speaker 3: of that just really challenging, oh my.

1354
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 4: God, unimaginable loss.

1355
01:14:35,600 --> 01:14:37,759
Speaker 2: And you know what, it also speaks to community because

1356
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:40,600
Speaker 2: everybody is so rallying. By the way, it's really online

1357
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 2: that people are quite mean. Can we talk about a

1358
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:43,799
Speaker 2: case where.

1359
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,840
Speaker 8: Yes, how we shift the energy and let's go to

1360
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 8: something we want to rage talk.

1361
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 2: Let's go ahead, body, is the case you hate, Let's

1362
01:14:54,760 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 2: hear it. Let's rage right, Okay? I can think of one. Well,

1363
01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:04,639
Speaker 2: now that might be biased.

1364
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 4: I shouldn't say that. Let's go.

1365
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:13,320
Speaker 2: I'm so happy with Corey Richands right now. But you know,

1366
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 2: m Boddy, I.

1367
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:18,759
Speaker 13: Just had to share with you. It's Devin from Toronto.

1368
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 13: I about two years ago went to India and I

1369
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,439
Speaker 13: went to the taj Ma Hall, and it was so

1370
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 13: foggy you couldn't see the taj Mahal. So no, I'm

1371
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 13: sure of me standing in front of the taj Mahal,

1372
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 13: but you cannot tell it there. So then I jokingly

1373
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 13: photoshopped a picture of myself as a giant next to

1374
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 13: the taj Mahal, and it's a pretty hilarious picture. But

1375
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 13: I can totally relate.

1376
01:15:43,479 --> 01:15:47,080
Speaker 3: Okay, mine was only an hour plane ride.

1377
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:52,280
Speaker 2: You're allegedly, allegedly allegedly in front of the taj Mall.

1378
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 4: That's funny, that's funny. That is the.

1379
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 3: Hall like one of the Seven Wonders of the World. Yes, correct, Yeah,

1380
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,600
Speaker 3: you went all the way to India, right, Can you

1381
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:04,880
Speaker 3: imagine racket all the way.

1382
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 11: In the list? I've gotten through all six now number seven.

1383
01:16:16,800 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 2: I would love to go there.

1384
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I hate that thing happened for you, like,

1385
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 3: but I mean I flew to Malaysia, which was right

1386
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 3: next door and is such a long fly. Yeah, and

1387
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:28,680
Speaker 3: you get all the way.

1388
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,760
Speaker 2: We gotta do a redo. Come on, we're gonna do

1389
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:34,920
Speaker 2: the fog list. Come on.

1390
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

1391
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:38,240
Speaker 2: The sunshine and.

1392
01:16:41,160 --> 01:16:44,639
Speaker 7: I think, hey, guys, you just got off the air

1393
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 7: on Wednesday, March eleventh, and I'm so excited to listen

1394
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 7: to Amanda Knox and her op on Lucy because that's

1395
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:52,840
Speaker 7: just a crazy case. But you asked what our walk

1396
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 7: up song would be. Mine in high school was super

1397
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:59,840
Speaker 7: Massive black Hole, which is what played in Twilight during

1398
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 7: the baseball scene, and it was just such a fun

1399
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 7: like for the people that got it, it was funny,

1400
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 7: and then the people that like, We're like, okay, because

1401
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:08,639
Speaker 7: it's like a pretty good song anyway.

1402
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,960
Speaker 9: But anyways, love you guys, thank you, thank you.

1403
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 2: Okay, we were rocking to it during the break we did.

1404
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:20,880
Speaker 11: Can we play that one? Yeah?

1405
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:26,080
Speaker 2: It's like it is awesome rock on It's like walk

1406
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 2: on and rock on music.

1407
01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 11: There you go.

1408
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 8: Okay, I'm comment people you make want to fill everyone in.

1409
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 8: We just were talking last night about what songs would

1410
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 8: work best for our walk on, So keep those coming

1411
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:42,479
Speaker 8: because I actually like people tell them, did you.

1412
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,960
Speaker 3: Come up with a new one?

1413
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:55,160
Speaker 5: Was Eddie Murphy's Party All the Time, which is the.

1414
01:17:55,120 --> 01:17:58,080
Speaker 2: Song my guy was to party.

1415
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 11: I don't know what's what I get it.

1416
01:18:02,000 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 2: We're just to add a smoke machine to that and

1417
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:07,519
Speaker 2: it is right and then like balloons pop out behind

1418
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 2: him makes like the most beautiful place.

1419
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:15,920
Speaker 3: I was crying laughing. I just thought it was the

1420
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 3: most funny thing. But listen, stick around, We've got more

1421
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,639
Speaker 3: to dig into. We're gonna play some of your talkbacks.

1422
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 3: Were trying to get a little bit more serious. I

1423
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 3: don't know. And we've even got a few good dms.

1424
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 3: We're going to get to keep it right here. True

1425
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 3: Crime Tonight.

1426
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1427
01:18:41,720 --> 01:18:44,400
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1428
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:47,679
Speaker 2: and Body. I'm just seeing this now. Farah Fawcett's sun

1429
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 2: in court with devil horn, forehead tattoos, mid attempted murder charges.

1430
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 2: That is so incredibly tragic.

1431
01:18:57,400 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 3: I think I saw that on like News Nation today

1432
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:00,160
Speaker 3: or something.

1433
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't remember People Magazine. I just got some

1434
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:02,920
Speaker 4: people an alert.

1435
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah wow, we will obviously be following that.

1436
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:08,080
Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

1437
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 4: Faucet loved her. Yeah, so let's get to a talk back.

1438
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:15,439
Speaker 2: Huh okay, Hi.

1439
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:16,360
Speaker 4: True Crime Tonight.

1440
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:17,879
Speaker 3: This is April from Akron.

1441
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 14: I have a question about the Alexander brothers. In one

1442
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 14: of your statements, you were saying that they have been

1443
01:19:24,320 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 14: doing these crimes since high school? Is it possible their

1444
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 14: parents knew and were paying people off from the time

1445
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 14: that they were minors to now. I don't understand how

1446
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 14: they went so many years getting away with them.

1447
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:37,559
Speaker 4: Thank you love the show.

1448
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 3: I think it's I think it's very complicated, right. I

1449
01:19:41,360 --> 01:19:45,919
Speaker 3: think number one, when you're a young woman, right, sometimes

1450
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 3: you don't really know what happened, right, Like speaking from experience,

1451
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:54,040
Speaker 3: you don't really know what just happened to you. And

1452
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 3: especially during you know a while ago, you put yourself

1453
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:04,719
Speaker 3: in the time maybe ten years ago in history, you blame.

1454
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 2: Yourself, right, you feel like I was a shame.

1455
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 3: I agreed to go, right, it's a shame thing.

1456
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 2: And number two probably in yeah, or this person was

1457
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:19,080
Speaker 2: popular or or or or they're going to tell or

1458
01:20:19,120 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 2: your parents are going to think less of you, or

1459
01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:26,200
Speaker 2: or or you know, there's so many or story.

1460
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:29,200
Speaker 3: And I also think it's possible that, yeah, the parents

1461
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:34,559
Speaker 3: were settling quietly with you know, families of little of

1462
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,320
Speaker 3: girls basically at the time, who may be brought forward,

1463
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,200
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, I think I think these these

1464
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 3: assault kind of cases, like the Alexander brothers, maybe not

1465
01:20:44,040 --> 01:20:46,880
Speaker 3: on this grand scale that they were doing. But I

1466
01:20:46,880 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 3: think they happen every day in America. I really they do.

1467
01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:54,960
Speaker 3: And I think oftentimes victims you know, are young in

1468
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 3: high school men and women or I would say boys

1469
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 3: and girls actually who maybe I have just too much

1470
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 3: shame to talk about it. And they're sitting there suffering quietly, right.

1471
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:07,880
Speaker 2: Well, that's what they're That's what everyone's banking on, right.

1472
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:10,800
Speaker 2: I think that's the air that we're all sensing. Right now,

1473
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 2: there's like this like general discomfort in the air for

1474
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 2: so many obvious, huge reasons. Sure, you know, wars and

1475
01:21:18,479 --> 01:21:21,799
Speaker 2: you know, supports for the troops, and really the outcry

1476
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:25,720
Speaker 2: of victims. You know that like feeling is sort of

1477
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:28,240
Speaker 2: palpable to some degree. You would have to assume that

1478
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,840
Speaker 2: mom would have a sense if you're paying things off.

1479
01:21:30,880 --> 01:21:33,519
Speaker 2: But again, we have to just teach our sons too,

1480
01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 2: consent at every step of the way. You know, those

1481
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:41,920
Speaker 2: are uncomfortable conversations, but you know, here you are.

1482
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, but thank you for the talk back. We do

1483
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:47,960
Speaker 3: appreciate it. We don't. I mean, you don't know, but

1484
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 3: if I were to guess, yeah.

1485
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 11: I would say, yes, yeah.

1486
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 3: They seem very entitled. It seems like their family was

1487
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 3: taking care of them for quite some time.

1488
01:21:57,720 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 4: And sometimes that can be enough.

1489
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:01,800
Speaker 5: I don't know if that even without payment, if you

1490
01:22:01,920 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 5: have power, if you have in the stope of if

1491
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:09,080
Speaker 5: you are and I'm not alleging this in the Alexander case,

1492
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:13,519
Speaker 5: if you are giving big donations to the school, if

1493
01:22:13,560 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 5: you were on the board of something, if you are,

1494
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:19,000
Speaker 5: I don't know. If you guys have been following the

1495
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:27,880
Speaker 5: really gnarly case of the water polo players in Harvard Westlake, Yeah,

1496
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:32,759
Speaker 5: there was an African American water polo polo player who

1497
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 5: he allegedly was terrorized forever, called absolute racist, the most

1498
01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 5: disgusting things, repeatedly sexual assaulted by this other kid. And

1499
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:49,160
Speaker 5: seems like kind of everyone knew it turned to blind eye.

1500
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:54,760
Speaker 5: The other kid, a white kid, was player of the year,

1501
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 5: popular and had parents and who were very involved in

1502
01:22:58,760 --> 01:22:59,240
Speaker 5: the school.

1503
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:01,320
Speaker 4: And it can be because it depends.

1504
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:03,120
Speaker 5: And you know, we talk about you know, big everyone

1505
01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:06,200
Speaker 5: talks about big fish, small ponds. If your kids in

1506
01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 5: high school, that's their pond. And if you're a big fish,

1507
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:10,440
Speaker 5: that's all the matters.

1508
01:23:10,120 --> 01:23:13,120
Speaker 2: That's a Ponderry goodness, it's the it's your biggest thing

1509
01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 2: in the world at that time, and if anyone's not

1510
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:18,240
Speaker 2: familiar with that case, Harvard west Lake is probably the

1511
01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:23,759
Speaker 2: most expensive and considered affluent in influential high schools, private

1512
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:28,720
Speaker 2: high schools in uh Los Angeles, so you know, very

1513
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 2: difficult to get into an extremely vigorous academic program and

1514
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 2: you know, known for its sports and you know, nothing

1515
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,280
Speaker 2: but the best, and it's beautiful, like the campus looks like,

1516
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:43,960
Speaker 2: you know, imagine the most beautiful place imagining just go

1517
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:47,879
Speaker 2: to high school. But you know, maybe there's some entitlement

1518
01:23:47,880 --> 01:23:50,640
Speaker 2: that comes with that. And this seems, as reported that

1519
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 2: this was a bit of also an open secret where

1520
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:57,639
Speaker 2: you know, the victims parents were really asking for help

1521
01:23:57,680 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 2: and putting it on everyone's radar.

1522
01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:02,240
Speaker 11: And we're getting that I didn't know about this case,

1523
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 11: thank you.

1524
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:03,640
Speaker 3: I didn't know about that.

1525
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:05,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe we'll talk about it another night.

1526
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 5: And then there's a there's another case we should definitely

1527
01:24:08,439 --> 01:24:12,599
Speaker 5: I really want to talk about that involves kids also

1528
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:16,960
Speaker 5: from a private school in the Las Vegas area and

1529
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 5: what happened on a trip to Costa Rica that now.

1530
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:21,400
Speaker 4: The FBI is involved with.

1531
01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:26,560
Speaker 2: Further sort of like the category of this year, it

1532
01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 2: feels like a real look at you know, like a

1533
01:24:31,439 --> 01:24:35,080
Speaker 2: power and entitlement because power is influence is not a

1534
01:24:35,120 --> 01:24:37,920
Speaker 2: bad thing, right, that's not a terrible thing. It's a

1535
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:42,920
Speaker 2: beautiful thing. It's influential when used with good heart. But boy,

1536
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:46,040
Speaker 2: can that go sideways real quick. And you know cases

1537
01:24:46,080 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 2: like the ones we're talking about where money can buy

1538
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:51,880
Speaker 2: you out of anything quite literally, And it seems like

1539
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:54,920
Speaker 2: that quite literally is how it works. Yeah, I'm hoping

1540
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 2: that now that we're all like, wait, I didn't totally

1541
01:24:57,320 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 2: believe that that was actually how it worked. No, no,

1542
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,760
Speaker 2: he actually is. You just didn't know because you weren't

1543
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:05,760
Speaker 2: in the club. Like we're all realizing none of us

1544
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:07,920
Speaker 2: have been in the VIP room ever.

1545
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to be in the VP room.

1546
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:13,000
Speaker 2: No, no, we don't know, we do not. But that's like,

1547
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 2: I think that's the good news because we're all realizing it.

1548
01:25:16,360 --> 01:25:18,440
Speaker 2: And on the bad side, it's like we're all realizing

1549
01:25:18,479 --> 01:25:21,679
Speaker 2: it right. Confused.

1550
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:24,160
Speaker 3: It's been another talk bout Petrock hometon.

1551
01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:28,280
Speaker 15: I was wondering if the football players defense could bring

1552
01:25:28,439 --> 01:25:32,639
Speaker 15: up the issue of changing maybe his defense and saying

1553
01:25:32,760 --> 01:25:36,240
Speaker 15: it's a cause of some kind of medical issue related

1554
01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:40,679
Speaker 15: to his football career, most notably the CTE that's.

1555
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 12: Been going around.

1556
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 15: It's a head entry, but we don't know how to

1557
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:45,000
Speaker 15: study that until after.

1558
01:25:47,160 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 5: I think she was going to say after death. He

1559
01:25:52,080 --> 01:26:03,000
Speaker 5: can actually only be confirmed after someone is dead.

1560
01:26:00,080 --> 01:26:03,200
Speaker 2: As the famous NFL star who died and his brain

1561
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,360
Speaker 2: was examined and it was all kinds of terrible with

1562
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:07,360
Speaker 2: the ct scans.

1563
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't know if he can use that

1564
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,559
Speaker 3: as a defense. I'm not sure. That's a really good

1565
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:13,400
Speaker 3: question and something that should ask Jarret for Farantina, that

1566
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:14,040
Speaker 3: was to say, I.

1567
01:26:14,040 --> 01:26:19,640
Speaker 2: Mean, the statistics about brain scans and CTEs are staggering.

1568
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,720
Speaker 3: Didn't the shooter in New York who went to the

1569
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 3: NFL and what not? Didn't he have or he claimed

1570
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:27,879
Speaker 3: he had ct Yes.

1571
01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:31,639
Speaker 11: If we know, that's a good question because I don't think.

1572
01:26:32,000 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 2: He was saying he was using his mind. That's why

1573
01:26:34,160 --> 01:26:37,120
Speaker 2: he was initially going to go to the NFL, because

1574
01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:40,280
Speaker 2: he was like left for dead in his mind, going

1575
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 2: crazy because he never played free concussions for like Las

1576
01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:46,559
Speaker 2: Vegas High school or something.

1577
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 11: Right, he didn't that part, I.

1578
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:51,000
Speaker 3: Can't remember, but it's never.

1579
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 8: Heard his final autopsy results.

1580
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:57,320
Speaker 3: We should find out about that, and then we should

1581
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 3: also ask Jarrett if that is a vie defense, if

1582
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 3: they can use that, because we truly don't know. I

1583
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:05,240
Speaker 3: love that talkback though.

1584
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:06,760
Speaker 8: It's such a it's a smart one, and it makes

1585
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 8: sense because he had a pattern of violence in the past,

1586
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 8: so there is a lot that he did had on

1587
01:27:11,920 --> 01:27:12,240
Speaker 8: with that.

1588
01:27:13,000 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 5: So, by the way, and I just looked this up,

1589
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 5: the shooter we're discussing is Shane Tamora. He was a

1590
01:27:20,120 --> 01:27:23,160
Speaker 5: twenty seven year old who killed four people as well

1591
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:27,280
Speaker 5: as himself in July of last year, and he was

1592
01:27:27,360 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 5: a big shooting at a New York City office building

1593
01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:36,520
Speaker 5: and posthumously, in fact, he was diagnosed with low stage CTE.

1594
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,280
Speaker 2: And he remember he was writing a black football, black coat.

1595
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:43,760
Speaker 2: We're acquiring that a you know, that huge rifle right

1596
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 2: in midtown Manhattan and oh my, you know four o'clock

1597
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:50,680
Speaker 2: in the afternoon, you know, broad daylight, you know, a

1598
01:27:50,720 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 2: real sign of disorder.

1599
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:52,559
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1600
01:27:52,880 --> 01:27:56,679
Speaker 3: Did you guys ever see the video of Colt Gray

1601
01:27:57,360 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 3: with the poster board getting on the school bus?

1602
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1603
01:28:00,800 --> 01:28:02,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I didn't know if you guys had seen that.

1604
01:28:02,400 --> 01:28:02,960
Speaker 4: What did you think?

1605
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:04,639
Speaker 3: Crazy?

1606
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 2: I can't believe very like Neon signed crazy right.

1607
01:28:08,840 --> 01:28:12,280
Speaker 3: Like bread? I mean, I just can't believe nobody.

1608
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,400
Speaker 2: Was like, hey, you know what, because we're like, honestly,

1609
01:28:15,439 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 2: I think this is also like the bigger discussion too,

1610
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,559
Speaker 2: like communities changing, Like what is somebody going to do, Hey,

1611
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 2: something's wrong with your kid. You're not allowed to do that,

1612
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 2: you know, a bus driver, a neighbor. Then they're nosy,

1613
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:28,719
Speaker 2: Then they're gonna get you know, they're in a neighbor's

1614
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:34,719
Speaker 2: rage war. Everybody exactly like and I think by design

1615
01:28:35,080 --> 01:28:39,320
Speaker 2: everybody is like sizing everybody up right, so you know,

1616
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 2: in cases like that, yeah, I think you know, maybe

1617
01:28:41,920 --> 01:28:44,920
Speaker 2: cold Gray would not have fallen through the cracks per

1618
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 2: se because his folks were obviously going through a tough time.

1619
01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:52,559
Speaker 2: I mean that's like life, right, everybody has stuff, but

1620
01:28:52,640 --> 01:28:55,639
Speaker 2: sometimes there's an aunt or an uncle, or a neighbor

1621
01:28:55,880 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 2: or a family friend that's in that you know area

1622
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:01,439
Speaker 2: that can like step in and note stuff like no

1623
01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:02,479
Speaker 2: one's allowed to really do that.

1624
01:29:02,520 --> 01:29:05,640
Speaker 5: Nobody's allowed to do that anymore. And I agree with

1625
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:08,679
Speaker 5: everything you're saying. I will just say in the case

1626
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:10,960
Speaker 5: of I know you said it looked ridiculous with the

1627
01:29:11,000 --> 01:29:15,679
Speaker 5: poster board, but given the context when you're in high school,

1628
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:18,879
Speaker 5: people are walking around with big instruments. People are walking

1629
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:20,920
Speaker 5: around and I know it was wrapped up, but you're

1630
01:29:21,040 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 5: walking around, you have projects that.

1631
01:29:23,439 --> 01:29:26,160
Speaker 2: Are on even that you think the bus driver. I'm

1632
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,360
Speaker 2: not saying the bus driver should have done this. I'm

1633
01:29:28,400 --> 01:29:32,360
Speaker 2: just saying, in this alternate universe of like fun frolicking community,

1634
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:34,320
Speaker 2: hey what do you got there in that big, huge bag?

1635
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 5: You?

1636
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 2: How you doing this morning? Like even in a positive way,

1637
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:41,320
Speaker 2: not even in an accusacory way. He knowing what we

1638
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:44,400
Speaker 2: know now, he was carrying a very oddly play. It

1639
01:29:44,439 --> 01:29:47,000
Speaker 2: wasn't even like he was trying that hard to hide it.

1640
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 2: It was like a sheet on top of it. I

1641
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 2: think even he was surprised and what he actually stopped him.

1642
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,360
Speaker 3: For those who don't know, we're talking about the shooter,

1643
01:29:57,479 --> 01:30:01,680
Speaker 3: high school shooter whose father was just of basically his

1644
01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:04,960
Speaker 3: school shooting. He got on the bus and he was

1645
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:08,680
Speaker 3: carrying his the gun, the weapon, this big weapon in

1646
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,960
Speaker 3: a poster board. It was like two poster boards like

1647
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:13,320
Speaker 3: wrapped around it like.

1648
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,400
Speaker 2: A project if it looked like a school project.

1649
01:30:16,080 --> 01:30:19,559
Speaker 3: But it was so awkward in just the video that

1650
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:22,200
Speaker 3: we seen, or that was what we see that was released,

1651
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 3: was just it to me. Now, maybe it's because of

1652
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:28,759
Speaker 3: hine sight, but to me that's very obvious.

1653
01:30:29,040 --> 01:30:33,519
Speaker 5: Oh I agree in hindsightindsight, but again there's a way

1654
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:33,880
Speaker 5: for me to.

1655
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 3: Look at it.

1656
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:40,040
Speaker 5: I mean, I say, but looking forward with foresight. Next

1657
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:44,639
Speaker 5: week we have some exciting things coming up as we

1658
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 5: end our Yes We and our True Crime.

1659
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 4: Tonight we tell.

1660
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:53,160
Speaker 8: Tell Aaron Harness is going to be joining us on Tuesday,

1661
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 8: March seventh. And if you don't know him, he is

1662
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,280
Speaker 8: a twenty six year old lawyer, journalist, political comment hater.

1663
01:31:00,640 --> 01:31:02,679
Speaker 11: He's huge on tic tac TikTok.

1664
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:06,960
Speaker 8: He has like over five million followers. Stephanie introduced us

1665
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:08,519
Speaker 8: to him. So Stephanie, you could probably.

1666
01:31:08,320 --> 01:31:09,759
Speaker 11: Talk more about him than anybody.

1667
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:11,559
Speaker 2: No, but Boddy, go ahead, you have your hand up.

1668
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 3: I love it is this day that ends that doesn't

1669
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:18,080
Speaker 3: end in Why that Stephanie doesn't send us like four

1670
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:24,600
Speaker 3: of his videos. Why it's true he is obsessed with you.

1671
01:31:25,080 --> 01:31:27,639
Speaker 5: But that's the posters of him on her wall. They're

1672
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:28,520
Speaker 5: very flattering.

1673
01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,760
Speaker 2: It's like we wait to make it creepy, but like

1674
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,360
Speaker 2: he is. I feel like I've watched his rise. This

1675
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:43,040
Speaker 2: seems like a reasonably minded person who just does a

1676
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,600
Speaker 2: lot of he does a lot of reporting. I'm like,

1677
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:47,599
Speaker 2: where is this? Where is this kid?

1678
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:50,400
Speaker 11: He is? You're not the only one who's night with this.

1679
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:52,880
Speaker 2: Now he's on the cover of magazines, by the way,

1680
01:31:52,920 --> 01:31:54,960
Speaker 2: I think I think there was like two followers. I

1681
01:31:55,000 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 2: like to think I was one of them. I've never

1682
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 2: met him, I don't know him. I I'm impressed that

1683
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 2: he really covers stuff very thoroughly and has been acknowledged

1684
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:07,439
Speaker 2: for that and has the heck of a following.

1685
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,280
Speaker 4: Now, yeah, he's for thirty under thirty.

1686
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:14,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right, like all of it anyway, so that's

1687
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 5: going to be cool on Tuesday.

1688
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:19,280
Speaker 2: I think, Yeah, he's a really interesting source, has an

1689
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:21,720
Speaker 2: interesting backstory, and also just you know, I think his

1690
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:26,080
Speaker 2: coverage specifically on Epstein's stuff, you know, the Savannah Guthor,

1691
01:32:26,160 --> 01:32:30,040
Speaker 2: he does all of it. Sometimes it has a political slant,

1692
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 2: but if we're looking at it just through a true

1693
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,920
Speaker 2: crime lens, which of course is what we're doing, I'm

1694
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 2: so excited to have.

1695
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:39,840
Speaker 11: I am too. I'm a little nervous about one thing though.

1696
01:32:39,840 --> 01:32:42,639
Speaker 8: He told me that he's going to be a dad

1697
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:45,439
Speaker 8: and his wife is expecting the very next day, so

1698
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:48,439
Speaker 8: I was like, I know, Yeah.

1699
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:49,439
Speaker 3: What he's going to be.

1700
01:32:49,680 --> 01:32:50,960
Speaker 4: He's going to be talking with us.

1701
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:52,920
Speaker 2: His wife is not going to be happy with that.

1702
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 11: You're going to do the show with us day before.

1703
01:32:56,240 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 2: We might need a written note from her.

1704
01:32:58,240 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 11: I'm okay with that.

1705
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:00,679
Speaker 3: We are girls girls.

1706
01:33:01,120 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. She might have to send us

1707
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 2: a voice memo with her fire. I don't know about this, Aaron.

1708
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 2: Can you call us tomorrow instead of report?

1709
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:13,560
Speaker 9: I don't know.

1710
01:33:13,680 --> 01:33:14,719
Speaker 4: What's a pre record?

1711
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 11: That's also?

1712
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:20,639
Speaker 2: Did I forget that? The whole luck getting these guys

1713
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:21,400
Speaker 2: to come to work that day.

1714
01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:24,240
Speaker 4: You guys are going to be partying your faces off day.

1715
01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, the flu can't along with Aaron.

1716
01:33:32,880 --> 01:33:33,880
Speaker 4: That's not acceptable.

1717
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 2: You imagine the rabbit hole. I will be down that

1718
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:42,679
Speaker 2: she would be like, there would be no commercial breaks,

1719
01:33:43,200 --> 01:33:44,960
Speaker 2: it was just two hours straight.

1720
01:33:49,240 --> 01:33:56,960
Speaker 3: Oh god, Aaron, while we have you, it would just

1721
01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:58,519
Speaker 3: be one thing after another.

1722
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:03,280
Speaker 2: I love it. Save him, to save him, save him.

1723
01:34:03,280 --> 01:34:05,240
Speaker 2: But maybe we could pre record with him prior.

1724
01:34:05,320 --> 01:34:07,920
Speaker 4: I don't know. Well how exciting he's having a baby.

1725
01:34:08,080 --> 01:34:12,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not going to see you guys until Sunday. KFI.

1726
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:16,280
Speaker 2: We are coming back for you. Do not forget it.

1727
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 2: By the way. We've gotten great feedback on that, so

1728
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Speaker 2: thank you everybody for tuning in. We will be back Sunday,

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Speaker 2: see them bye, good night,