1
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,960
Speaker 1: Or Hey, do you think that intelligence is inevitable in

2
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 1: our podcast? I'm not sure A lot of our jokes

3
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,800
Speaker 1: are that's smart. Well, I think puns are a sign

4
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,799
Speaker 1: of intelligence in my opinion. But I was wondering about

5
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,120
Speaker 1: in life in general, like if you ran the Earth

6
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,480
Speaker 1: as an experiment many times, how often do you think

7
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: you'd get intelligent life? Sometimes I'm not sure we have

8
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,000
Speaker 1: intelligent life here on Earth anyway. So do you think,

9
00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,920
Speaker 1: like in another version of Earth, dinosaurs became smart, maybe

10
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,400
Speaker 1: like built the Internet, or what if like plants became intelligent?

11
00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 1: Then this could be a podcast done by bananas where

12
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,120
Speaker 1: Banana's world the world. Maybe it's done by bananas and

13
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,839
Speaker 1: listened to by intelligent dinosaurs, and it's probably a lot

14
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 1: smarter than this podcast, or maybe at least it's funnier.

15
00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 1: I am more handmade cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics. Hi,

16
00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm Daniel, and in this element of the multiverse, I'm

17
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 1: a particle physicists. You think there's an alternate universe where

18
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,039
Speaker 1: we swapped Daniel, Like I'm the physicist and you're the cartoonist.

19
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 1: I think you're well on your way to becoming a physicist.

20
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,000
Speaker 1: In this universe. I wish I could say the same

21
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,320
Speaker 1: about you, Daniel and cartooning. I should spend more time

22
00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,240
Speaker 1: doodling while we podcast, so I can work on my

23
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: art skills. That's how that's how I'm good at cartooning.

24
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 1: What do you think I do while you're talking about physics? Oh?

25
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,039
Speaker 1: You should totally publish the doodles. No, but I do

26
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: like to imagine other lives I may have lived where

27
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,640
Speaker 1: I pursued writing or art or music or something, and

28
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 1: I wonder how those would have turned out. But why

29
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 1: wait for another universe? Why don't you just right now

30
00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 1: and pursue music. Okay, hold on, I'm going to hang up.

31
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,440
Speaker 1: But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain

32
00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,080
Speaker 1: the Universe, a production of I Heart Radio in which

33
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,160
Speaker 1: we take you on that mental journey. We explore this universe,

34
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 1: We talk about other universes. We wonder, why is this

35
00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 1: universe like this? Are there other universes out there? How

36
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,360
Speaker 1: does this universe even work? Is it possible to understand it?

37
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 1: We wrap all that up in about forty minutes, stuff

38
00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 1: some puns in it, and feed it to you for

39
00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,840
Speaker 1: intellectual lunch. Because you know, I think the universe that

40
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 1: we live in is rich and amazing and huge, and

41
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,320
Speaker 1: there's still so much to discover. But there is the

42
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,040
Speaker 1: amazing and incredible possibility that maybe this is not the

43
00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,240
Speaker 1: only universe, and maybe there are other universes out there

44
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 1: waiting for us to discover, universes without bananas, universes without snacks,

45
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,480
Speaker 1: or maybe even universes with better snacks. Because a natural

46
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,800
Speaker 1: question when you look at our universe as you wonder like,

47
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:56,960
Speaker 1: is this the only way it could be? Could the

48
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: universe have been different? Are there other examples of universes

49
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,000
Speaker 1: out there where things are different? What does that mean

50
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,359
Speaker 1: for how special or how irrelevant we are? Yeah, and

51
00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,400
Speaker 1: I think it's, you know, the job of physicists to

52
00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,960
Speaker 1: think about these other universes. But I think the people

53
00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:13,959
Speaker 1: who get to have more fun with this idea are

54
00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 1: writers and science fiction writers, because they are free to

55
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 1: let their imaginations run wild and think about all these

56
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,480
Speaker 1: other universes and what they could be and what could

57
00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,120
Speaker 1: be in them. That's right. Science fiction writers not always

58
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,919
Speaker 1: constrained by the laws of physics the way us experimentalists are,

59
00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 1: but they still do contribute to this exploration of how

60
00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,160
Speaker 1: the universe is and how the universe might be, and

61
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: like we say in this podcast, a lot is a

62
00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,720
Speaker 1: vital element of exploring our universe thinking about how other

63
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,760
Speaker 1: universes might behave and what the rules are. Yes, So

64
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 1: it will be continuing today our conversation with science fiction

65
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,920
Speaker 1: authors about their work, about how they see these concepts

66
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,400
Speaker 1: in physics and how they let their imaginations run wild

67
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 1: in these universes that's right, and more specifically, how they

68
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 1: build their universe, because when you tell story, you have

69
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:03,280
Speaker 1: to put it in a universe, and the universe has

70
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: to follow rules for your story to make sense, for

71
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 1: your characters to have constraints, for those conflicts to mean anything.

72
00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,280
Speaker 1: And in science fiction you can invent any kind of

73
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,240
Speaker 1: universe you like, I suppose, as long as it's self consistent.

74
00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,960
Speaker 1: So we've been having fun talking to well known science

75
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,839
Speaker 1: fiction authors about how they are gods of their own

76
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,599
Speaker 1: universe and what rules they decided to put in it

77
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,800
Speaker 1: and what rules they decided to do leave to be.

78
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: On the podcast, we'll be talking about science fiction universe

79
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,200
Speaker 1: of Adrian Tchaikowsky's Doors of Eden, that's right. In Adrian Tchaikovsky,

80
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,400
Speaker 1: now a very well known and very successful science fiction author,

81
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 1: but has a quite an interesting background because he started

82
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,280
Speaker 1: out actually writing fantasy novels. You can do both, apparently

83
00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 1: you can't cross over, and he wrote some very well

84
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,359
Speaker 1: received fantasy novels. You know, he spent a lot of

85
00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,359
Speaker 1: time doing D and D as a kid, and I

86
00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 1: think those novels came out of that. And then he

87
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 1: switched over and a few years ago he wrote a

88
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 1: book called Children of Time, which is one of my

89
00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,640
Speaker 1: favorite science fiction novels. I was blown away when I

90
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 1: read it, and so I totally recommend his entire series

91
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,400
Speaker 1: of science fiction works. But today we're talking about his

92
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 1: most recent book, which is just coming out now in August.

93
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,440
Speaker 1: It's called Doors of Eaton. I guess, Daniel, what do

94
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 1: you see as a difference between a fantasy novel and

95
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 1: a science fiction novel? Like, where do you draw the

96
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:31,040
Speaker 1: line the number of dragons? I think, what, did you

97
00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 1: have a sci fi novel with dragons in it? Nobody's

98
00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,599
Speaker 1: ever done that. No, you totally could have a science

99
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,360
Speaker 1: fiction novel with dragons, And in fact, the one we're

100
00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 1: talking about today, the science fiction novel has a lot

101
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,640
Speaker 1: of weird creators in it. I think though, the difference

102
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,719
Speaker 1: between science fiction and fantasy, again according to Be and

103
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,360
Speaker 1: lots of people out there in the podcast verse can disagree,

104
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,400
Speaker 1: is that a science fiction universe is more like science

105
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,840
Speaker 1: that you set up the rules and then your universe

106
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,200
Speaker 1: follows those rules, whereas in fantasy you have magic and

107
00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 1: so basically you know, the rules can be anything at

108
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 1: any point. It's just sort of a different style there,

109
00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,800
Speaker 1: because you're either living in a world where you have

110
00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,440
Speaker 1: to follow the rules or you're living in a world

111
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,800
Speaker 1: where you sort of discovering crazy stuff at every moment. Well,

112
00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,440
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, sometimes fantasy has some rules,

113
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, like I know that sometimes they try to

114
00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,480
Speaker 1: have rules about how dragons can breathe and what they

115
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: need to eat and things like that. So maybe it's

116
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: a little bit of a fuzzy line. Well, I would

117
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 1: say that the best fantasy novels are the ones where

118
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,280
Speaker 1: the magic does have rules, where there's something about it,

119
00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 1: there's a reason it works this way, and their limits

120
00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,360
Speaker 1: to what you can do. You can't cast this kind

121
00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: of spell in that situation. You need this kind of

122
00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,400
Speaker 1: ability combined with that one to do something. But in

123
00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,520
Speaker 1: my book, that makes them science fiction and not fantasy,

124
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,279
Speaker 1: so once you start following the rules, it becomes science fiction.

125
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're talking about his latest book, which

126
00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 1: is called Doors of Eden, and it has to do

127
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,880
Speaker 1: with the multiverse, this idea that there are different universes

128
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,480
Speaker 1: besides ours, and it's it's the idea that the universes

129
00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,279
Speaker 1: are all different or they're all kind of different versions

130
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,200
Speaker 1: of ours. Yeah, they're all sort of different versions of Hours.

131
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,400
Speaker 1: And he really focuses on the role of evolution and

132
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: how evolution goes down a different path and each multiverse

133
00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,320
Speaker 1: and that's what gives this sort of a fantasy or

134
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: sort of critter based element, and like thinking about which

135
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 1: creator might have become intelligent and become dominant in each

136
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,760
Speaker 1: of these multiverses. Like if the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped

137
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: out by an asteroid, could they be maybe the dominant

138
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,480
Speaker 1: species in our planet right now and have developed intelligence

139
00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 1: and a physics podcast. They probably wouldn't be talking about

140
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,720
Speaker 1: bananas though. I can't see a t rex eating a banana,

141
00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: because how does it get it up to its mouth

142
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:42,680
Speaker 1: and it's like it's holding it, it peels it, and

143
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,920
Speaker 1: then it's just like they can't feed themselves. They's just

144
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 1: I don't see it working. Well, they're intelligent enough to

145
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,040
Speaker 1: have a podcast. I would imagine, Daniel, they could figure

146
00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,080
Speaker 1: out a way to peel a banana. Sometimes the simplest

147
00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 1: problems are the hardest to overcome. Yeah, So it's the

148
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: idea of the multiverse, and there are many different versions

149
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,960
Speaker 1: of the more diverse and so we'll get a little

150
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 1: bit more into this topic. But we were wondering how

151
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 1: many people out there believe the multiverse is possible, and

152
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,240
Speaker 1: more importantly, if we could ever travel between these different universes.

153
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 1: So I went out to the Internet and I asked

154
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: our listeners and folks like you if they thought it

155
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,520
Speaker 1: was possible to go from our universe to another. Not

156
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,520
Speaker 1: just whether the multiverse is real, not just whether other

157
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,320
Speaker 1: universes exist, but whether we could actually ever visit them.

158
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,200
Speaker 1: So think about it for a second. Do you think

159
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: we can travel between universes in the multiverse. Here's what

160
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,440
Speaker 1: people had to say. No, I don't think we ever

161
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 1: will be able to do this. For us to be

162
00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,400
Speaker 1: able to do that, we would have to know or

163
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,160
Speaker 1: have an idea of like a barrier. I really don't

164
00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 1: see us doing this any time soon or even in

165
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,280
Speaker 1: the future. I wish though, no, because fundamentally the multiverse

166
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: would be causely separated. Well, what don't they know? If

167
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,160
Speaker 1: there is a multi verse, I can barely travel through

168
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:06,520
Speaker 1: the actor the universe, So traveling through the multiverse sounds

169
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,839
Speaker 1: a bit too much. But well, maybe single particles. If

170
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,480
Speaker 1: there is a multiverse, I would say no, because if

171
00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,240
Speaker 1: we could travel through the multiverse, it would have to

172
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,920
Speaker 1: be redefined as just being the universe. Oh I am

173
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 1: I don't think we can because I just don't know

174
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,880
Speaker 1: how we would get there. Do we build a bridge,

175
00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 1: we have to open up a thing where do you

176
00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,959
Speaker 1: even find out where the opening to the multiverse is? No, No,

177
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,600
Speaker 1: I don't think so. And even if we could, with

178
00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 1: this pandemics thing in quarantine fourteen days, it is not

179
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: worth it. So for once, our listeners are pretty consistent. Yeah, well,

180
00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 1: I like the one who said we can barely deal

181
00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,000
Speaker 1: with this universe. I can't even wrap my head around

182
00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,360
Speaker 1: multiple universities. It's a good point. Maybe we should figure

183
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 1: this one out of we branch into other ones. But

184
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,720
Speaker 1: then again, maybe other universes have physics as easier to unravel.

185
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,679
Speaker 1: Just like takes fifteen minutes and boom, theory of everything

186
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 1: figured out. Maybe there's a universe where they figure out

187
00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,840
Speaker 1: of egg seed for this pandemic, and then we can

188
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 1: learn from that. I guess right, that's a positive thing.

189
00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 1: That's a positive thing. Yeah. I like that idea. But

190
00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,120
Speaker 1: nobody really seems to think that it's possible to go

191
00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 1: from our universe to another universe. They sort of all

192
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,840
Speaker 1: scoff at the idea that you could ever actually travel

193
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,680
Speaker 1: from this universe to another one. All right, well, let's

194
00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 1: get into Adrian's book here, Doors of Eden, and so

195
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 1: it's about the multiverse, and you're saying that are these

196
00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,600
Speaker 1: what kind of multiverse this is? This like a universe

197
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,080
Speaker 1: is just like ours but maybe had different initial conditions,

198
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,480
Speaker 1: or is it like the quantum universe where it gets

199
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,040
Speaker 1: split off every time a particle makes a left or

200
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 1: right decision. It's a very specific kind of multiverse. It's

201
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 1: one in which Earth exists and the basic laws of

202
00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:59,760
Speaker 1: physics are the same. And it doesn't have to do

203
00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,680
Speaker 1: with want of mechanics. It has to do more with

204
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,559
Speaker 1: thinking about how evolution might have gone differently, Like if

205
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 1: you start with Earth with primordial bath of little bugs

206
00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 1: and life develops then if you run that experiment a

207
00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 1: lot of different times, what kind of life might develop,

208
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,760
Speaker 1: what might win the evolutionary sweepstakes, and what might eventually

209
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,839
Speaker 1: become intelligent because it makes sense to think about how

210
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 1: that could be really influenced by random events. You know,

211
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,560
Speaker 1: a cosmic ray comes in and mutates this creat or

212
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 1: not that creator, or a DNA transcription error gives you

213
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,760
Speaker 1: this mutation and not that mutation, Or an asteroid comes

214
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 1: or it doesn't. These little details can really affect downstream,

215
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 1: have a massive influence on what ends up surviving and

216
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: what ends up being intelligent. So in the book, then

217
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: it's like a universe just like ours, but instead of

218
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,520
Speaker 1: like a mammal here and with limbs and skin, were

219
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 1: actually like dinosaurs with scales and big teeth. Yes, and

220
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,040
Speaker 1: this is where the novel really shines. Chakowski has a

221
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: background in zoology and he's very, very creative, and so

222
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 1: there are some very inventive other universes there with crazy critters,

223
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, walrus like creatures that build computers that are

224
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 1: mostly out of ice, or bugs that become like the

225
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,760
Speaker 1: size of planets and float through the universe, or all

226
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,840
Speaker 1: sorts of other crazy stuff. I don't want to spoil it,

227
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,200
Speaker 1: but it was really inventive, like ideas I'd never considered,

228
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,080
Speaker 1: ever thought of before, but seem kind of plausible. In

229
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,680
Speaker 1: each case, he's really thought through how this thing could

230
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,440
Speaker 1: evolve and what the environmental requirements were to sort of

231
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 1: select for that thing to happen. It's very richly imagined.

232
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,760
Speaker 1: It's almost like he's visited these things and just like

233
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,199
Speaker 1: scribbled down notes and come back to tell us about

234
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,280
Speaker 1: But they're all based on Earth, or are these like

235
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: dragons coming from space? These are all based on Earth.

236
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 1: So in each case he's imagining life here on Earth

237
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,360
Speaker 1: evolving in lots of different ways and ending up with

238
00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,959
Speaker 1: lots of different kind of intelligence creters. And so then

239
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 1: what's the plot? What's the story about? The story starts

240
00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,520
Speaker 1: here on our Earth with people who are like us,

241
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,760
Speaker 1: and there are cracks that open up between the multiverse,

242
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,040
Speaker 1: so instead of having completely paralleled separate universes, there starts

243
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,720
Speaker 1: to be overlaps, places where creators can go from one

244
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: to the other. And the story begins following some cryptozoologists,

245
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,719
Speaker 1: people who look for weird creatures like big Foot or

246
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,000
Speaker 1: the Lockneest Monster, and they find some weird creatures, like

247
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,040
Speaker 1: actually alive, strange things you wouldn't expect in our universe,

248
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,160
Speaker 1: and they follow them back and find these doors between

249
00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 1: universes where you can jump from one to the other.

250
00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,360
Speaker 1: And the basic plot of the book is to figure

251
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 1: out why are these universes overlapping, what or who is

252
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,280
Speaker 1: controlling it and for what purpose? And is it a

253
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 1: good idea or a bad idea? And then it just

254
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,200
Speaker 1: goes crazy as we jump from universe to universe and

255
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,960
Speaker 1: meet all sorts of crazy creatures. Interesting so they're not

256
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 1: naturally occurring cracks. It's like somebody's opening the doorways between universes.

257
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,360
Speaker 1: That's one of the big mysteries driving the book, and

258
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,240
Speaker 1: so I won't spoil it for our listeners, but it's

259
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 1: a fascinating question. Yes, all right, Well, let's get into

260
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,120
Speaker 1: the signs of the book and then we'll get to

261
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 1: your interview with Adrian Chaikowsky, author of Doors of Eden.

262
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:18,280
Speaker 1: But first let's take a quick break. All right, we're

263
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,840
Speaker 1: talking about the science fiction work of Adrian Chaikowsky, and

264
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,360
Speaker 1: specifically the book Doors of Eden, in which the multiverse

265
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,880
Speaker 1: exists and it's fun and there's all kinds of amazing

266
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,640
Speaker 1: different creatures in it, and the cracks between the universes

267
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 1: are starting to show. It's fun sort of the same

268
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 1: way like Jurassic Park was fun in those movies. Like

269
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 1: it's fun, but it's dangerous. You know. Some of these

270
00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,440
Speaker 1: critters are not exactly friendly. Oh, I see, all right.

271
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 1: So it takes place in our universe, and there's these

272
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: doorways to other multiverses that are opening, and there are

273
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 1: creatures from those multiverses coming into and out of our world. Yeah,

274
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,640
Speaker 1: that's right. And our humans sometimes go into those multiverses

275
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 1: and come back after many years suddenly changed, and so

276
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of going back and forth. But the

277
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,160
Speaker 1: basic sort of scientific premise is what if you could

278
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 1: explore multiple paths at once. You know, it's like when

279
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,600
Speaker 1: you have to make a decision in life, You're like

280
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 1: should I order mac and cheese or should I order

281
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 1: pizza or whatever, and you imagine, like, maybe this has

282
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,320
Speaker 1: a big role in my life. Maybe there's another version

283
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,720
Speaker 1: of me where I ordered the pizza and something happened

284
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,120
Speaker 1: and and now I'm a totally different person. And this

285
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: sort of gets to explore all these different paths the

286
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,760
Speaker 1: way the Earth might have gone if evolution had worked different.

287
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:34,080
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's have a lot of questions about

288
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,440
Speaker 1: the science, I guess, and so let's dig into that.

289
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,040
Speaker 1: And so, first of all, maybe we should recap a

290
00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 1: little bit about this idea of a multiverse, because there

291
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 1: are a lot of different flavors of multiverses in physics theories.

292
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 1: Yes there are, and multiverse is a hot topic these days,

293
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 1: not just in science fiction novels, but in theories of physics.

294
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,560
Speaker 1: It's something we talk about a lot. So explain to

295
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,280
Speaker 1: us what is the current definition of a multiverse. So

296
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,640
Speaker 1: there's lots of different ways to think about the multiverse,

297
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: and essentially, at the hands on what question you're trying

298
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 1: to answer? The whole idea for the multiverse comes from

299
00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 1: a lack of explanation of things we see in our universe.

300
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 1: Like we look at things in our universe and we

301
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,440
Speaker 1: measure them, and we wonder like, why is it this

302
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 1: way and not some other way? You know, Like we

303
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,680
Speaker 1: measure the rate of expansion of the universe driven by

304
00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,240
Speaker 1: the cosmological constant, and it's a number, and it's kind

305
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,880
Speaker 1: of a weird number. It's like kind of a small number,

306
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 1: and we wonder like, well, why isn't that number just

307
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 1: one or seven or twelve? Like why this number and

308
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 1: not some other number? Right? Like it could be something else,

309
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,760
Speaker 1: But why isn't it that? Or what isn't this? And

310
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 1: one possible answer is, oh, there's a reason it has

311
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,560
Speaker 1: to be this way, we just don't yet understand the

312
00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,280
Speaker 1: physics of it. And that's, you know, my favorite explanation,

313
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,160
Speaker 1: because that's the cleanest, it's the simplest. It tells us

314
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: why our universe has to be this way, but we

315
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 1: don't have that explanation yet. We haven't figured it out yet.

316
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 1: And another way to make sense of it, instead of

317
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,840
Speaker 1: finding a physics argument for why it has to be

318
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: this way is to say, well, it's just arbitrary and

319
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,160
Speaker 1: maybe it set sort of randomly when the universe began. Yeah,

320
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,360
Speaker 1: Like maybe it's just like a random throw of the die, yeah, right,

321
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 1: or like a random flip of the coin. And then

322
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,879
Speaker 1: you're wondering, why is it heads not to Yeah, And

323
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,680
Speaker 1: that feels sort of like a cop out, like it's saying, well,

324
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 1: there is no explanation, so maybe there can't be an explanation,

325
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,919
Speaker 1: or maybe it's just random, and that's the explanation that

326
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: sounds reasonable to me, but physicists have a very uncomfortable

327
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 1: time dealing with that answer. Yeah, because it feels sort

328
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 1: of like giving up, because you could use that argument

329
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,880
Speaker 1: for anything. You know, why is the Earth going around

330
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,679
Speaker 1: the Sun? I don't know, Maybe it's random. You know,

331
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: why are photons act this way? I don't know. Maybe

332
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,959
Speaker 1: they just do because they do. It feels like a

333
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,840
Speaker 1: non answer. It feels like you're saying, don't ask any

334
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,160
Speaker 1: more questions because there are no more answers. But we're physicists.

335
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,240
Speaker 1: We like to ask questions, We would like to figure

336
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 1: things out. But I guess my problem with this is

337
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:54,719
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like the best way to answer that

338
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,919
Speaker 1: question either, Like, you know, why does the Earth go

339
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 1: around the Sun? You can dig into it and you

340
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,640
Speaker 1: find out about gravity and orbits and things like that.

341
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 1: But if you get to a number that you can't explain,

342
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:07,240
Speaker 1: why can't it just be the way it is? Because

343
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 1: it is? Why does it? Why do you have to

344
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: invent the whole other set of universes to explain it? Well,

345
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,159
Speaker 1: it could just be the way it is, the reason

346
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 1: why a whole other set of universes sort of scratches

347
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 1: that itch. Especially works when the number is weird. Like

348
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 1: if you measure a number and it's sort of like

349
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 1: makes sense to you, like the number is one, you

350
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,160
Speaker 1: know these dimensionless numbers, You're like, okay, well the number

351
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,600
Speaker 1: is one. But if the number is really weird or small,

352
00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 1: then it seems unlikely. And then to explain it, you'd

353
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 1: like to imagine like, well, maybe there are lots of

354
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,240
Speaker 1: other versions and we're just sort of an unlikely random choice.

355
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 1: There many of these things and we just happen to

356
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,560
Speaker 1: be in one that's weird. And so that it doesn't

357
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,960
Speaker 1: really answer the question. You still have the arbitrary nous,

358
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 1: you still have the randomness, but then you have a

359
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 1: whole population. So instead of being the only one out

360
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,440
Speaker 1: on this weird tail, we're out of the weird tail

361
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 1: of a large group and most of the universe is

362
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,719
Speaker 1: normal and we're the weird ones. So it sort of

363
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 1: gives you some kind of an explanation, but it's not

364
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: totally satisfactory. See, it's more like why are we special?

365
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 1: And the answer is we're not. Yeah, I feel like

366
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,560
Speaker 1: that's kind of what you're trying to It's like, yeah,

367
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: it's like it's weird that we're special, but maybe we're

368
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,159
Speaker 1: not special. Maybe there's a whole bunch of other universes. Well, actually,

369
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,160
Speaker 1: I think it's more like the other way around. It's saying,

370
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,919
Speaker 1: why are we special? Isn't it strange that we have

371
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 1: only one example? And this example is special, and so

372
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 1: saying oh, yeah, well we are actually special, and there

373
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 1: are other universes out there with this special thing doesn't happen,

374
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: and so that explains, like why it's happening in this one.

375
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's not a totally satisfactory answer. And I

376
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 1: think part of the reason it survives is because it's

377
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: so mind blowing. It's like, whoa, You're gonna take the

378
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: whole universe and multiplied by a thousand or multiply by

379
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,919
Speaker 1: an infinite number of varieties. It's sort of philosophically mind blowing,

380
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 1: and that's why I think it's so popular. All right, Well,

381
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: there are many different kinds of multiverses, and we had

382
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: a whole podcast that out the different kinds of multiverses.

383
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 1: So if you're curious, please go back. There are lists

384
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 1: of episodes and find it. But I guess I'm curious

385
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 1: about the one that Adrian Chikovski uses in his novel

386
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,120
Speaker 1: The Doors of Eden. What kind of multiverse is it?

387
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,679
Speaker 1: Is it like a parallel is it in another spot

388
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: in space? Is it like a quantum kind of separation?

389
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: What kind of multiverse is it? I think it's most

390
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: similar to the quantum multiverse, actually, because it has the

391
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:32,160
Speaker 1: same laws of physics. So it's not like the multiverse

392
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: where the universe is different laws of physics in different places,

393
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 1: and other universes are just like you know, other parts

394
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 1: of space where the laws of physics are different, the

395
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 1: electrons have different masses or something. It's not that kind

396
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,199
Speaker 1: of configuration like in his book. Your electrons can go

397
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: to another multiverse and still be electrons, and there's still light,

398
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 1: and there's still particles, and everything is familiar. So the

399
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 1: laws of physics are the same. It's just sort of

400
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,920
Speaker 1: like another role of the die. So in that sense,

401
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: it's most similar to the quantum all diverse. The quantum

402
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 1: multiverse is the one where every time a quantum particle

403
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 1: does something random, you know, the electron goes left or

404
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 1: goes right. It doesn't actually just randomly choose one. It

405
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: does both. In the universe splits into two, one where

406
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,119
Speaker 1: it goes left and one where it goes right. And

407
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: so in this universe, that's kind of what is happening,

408
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: is that they're they're quantum multiverses, and in these different universes,

409
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, a primordial cell split this way and not

410
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, it's sort of like biology quantum multiverse,

411
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 1: where you're imagining that the random processes, which are fundamentally

412
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 1: quantum mechanical, are having a macroscopic effect on the biology

413
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: and on the evolution, which leads to all sorts of

414
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 1: different stuff. And you know that I think is totally

415
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: plausible because a lot of the mutation that comes in

416
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 1: evolution is based on quantum mechanical principles, you know, the

417
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: chemistry of these things interacting or cosmic rays flipping a

418
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 1: bit in DNA, so that's totally possible. Yeah, I guess

419
00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: these things all depend on really tiny events and really

420
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: tiny random events. Yeah. And in this sense, the multiverse

421
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: is sort of trying to scratch the same itch as

422
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: what we were talking about earlier. Instead of thinking like, well,

423
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: why is this fundamental parameter of the universe point one

424
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: instead of one or two, it's thinking why are we

425
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: in this universe and not the other one? Right. Why

426
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,120
Speaker 1: are we in the universe where the electrone went left

427
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,239
Speaker 1: instead of the one where it went right? How does

428
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 1: the universe randomly choose one of those things? Is there's

429
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: some like quantum die at the core of the universe

430
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 1: computer And so the quantum multiverse tries to answer that

431
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 1: question by saying, we're not special. It's not like the

432
00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: universe picked left. It picked both. We just happened to

433
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: be in the left one, and the people on the

434
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: right one are thinking why did it go right and

435
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: not left? Yeah, And in my mind that doesn't really

436
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,480
Speaker 1: answer the question. This whole quantum multiverse thing doesn't really

437
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: solve the problem of randomness because we still are in

438
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: the left one. You know, maybe the other ones exist,

439
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,720
Speaker 1: that's cool, but how come we ended up in the

440
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: left one. There's still a specialness to one of those

441
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 1: universes because it's the one that we are living in. Oh,

442
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: I see, you think it's still special because your special

443
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm the only me I know. So, yes, this universe

444
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: is different from all the other universes. Right, well, until

445
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,719
Speaker 1: the dinosaurs come, and then maybe we'll meet dinosaur Daniel,

446
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 1: who actually, yeah, there, he's a big advocate for down fruit. Alright,

447
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: So in this universe, I guess, then his multiverse and

448
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: the ones that they interact with in this novel, I

449
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 1: guess they're probably recent quantum multi universes, right, because like,

450
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 1: if you think about it's kind of like a tree,

451
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 1: like the branches in a tree, Like it's where he's

452
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: probably talking about other universes in a very close branch

453
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: of the multiverse, because like I imagine, if you go

454
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: back to the beginning of time and start splitting the universe,

455
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: then those would be super duper different than our universe.

456
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: You might not get there might not even be an Earth,

457
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,919
Speaker 1: that's right, Yeah, you wouldn't get a Milky Way or

458
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: an Earth, or even we might be in the middle

459
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: of a giant cosmic void instead of being in the

460
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: center of a superstructure. So you're right, he has an

461
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: Earth in each of these and the splitting happens sort

462
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: of after life begins on Earth. But again I don't

463
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 1: want to spoil too much. One of the fascinating elements

464
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 1: of the book is sort of tracing this back and

465
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: figuring out where the first branch happens. Interesting, all right,

466
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 1: And so there are other animals that develop intelligence and

467
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: that's all part of the plot to figure out how

468
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: that happened. Yeah, all right, Well let's get into your

469
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: interview with science fiction author Adrian Chaikovski, author of Doors

470
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: of Eden. So it's my great pleasure today to welcome

471
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: to the program Adrian Tchaikovsky, the author of Doors of

472
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: Eden as well as many other novels. He's the winner

473
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 1: of awards in both fantasy and science fiction writing, and

474
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 1: we're very glad to have him today on the program. Hello. Thanks, sure, so,

475
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: thank you very much for joining us. Before we get

476
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: started talking about your book, we'd like to get to

477
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 1: know you a little bit better as a writer. Can

478
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit more about your background,

479
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: how you got into writing science fiction. I know that

480
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: you have some sort of thing background in zoology and law,

481
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: and then before you wrote science fiction, you wrote a

482
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: series of well regarded fantasy novels. Yeah, I've got the

483
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: sort of background you get when you're rolling randomly on

484
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: some fairly banal tables. So yes, I've got I've got

485
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: my academic background as zoology and psychology. Um, it's not

486
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: the case that the zoology in the background led to

487
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,919
Speaker 1: the zoologe in the writing. It's more the case that

488
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 1: they're both symptoms of an overriding fascination with the natural

489
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: world that I've had since a very young age. Um

490
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: I have. I did work in law for years. I

491
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: mean I've been a full time writer for about a

492
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: year and a half now, but before that i've been

493
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: I was a sort of fairly junior type of lawyer

494
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: for about ten years, UM, which came about because when

495
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: I was looking for a job, there was an opening

496
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,159
Speaker 1: for a legal secretary, and because of the writing, I

497
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: had a very good typing speed. And that was basically

498
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: that I didn't really decide to become a lawyer at

499
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: any point, but there was on the job training available

500
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: and it just kind of happened beyond that. Actually, I

501
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 1: think the biggest influence for me becoming a writer has

502
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 1: probably been role playing games, which is my kind of

503
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: enduring obsession when I was certainly a teenager and kind

504
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: of still is, to be honest, But it turned out

505
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: to be a very very good sort of training ground

506
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 1: for designing worlds and designing characters and putting yourself behind

507
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: the kind of behind the eyes are very different sort

508
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: of people and creatures, and that certainly comes out clearly

509
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: and very well in your fantasy novels. What about the

510
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: transition to science fiction did you feel like you had

511
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: to leave some of that behind and build different kinds

512
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,719
Speaker 1: of worlds. Was that a different muscle for you? Did

513
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: you feel like the same sort of expression. It's a

514
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: bit of a different challenge, certainly when I'm writing science

515
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: science fiction, because I mean, there's a kind of a

516
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: bit of a slider that you can play with when

517
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: you're when you're approaching depending on how science accurate you

518
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: wanted to be, you're you're adding extra constraints that you

519
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: don't have to work with. So I mean, despite its

520
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: subject of the children at time, is certainly intended to

521
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: be a fairly hard science book in that not in

522
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:08,239
Speaker 1: that it's full of vastly complex mathematical equations, but in

523
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: that the science depicted there is at least intended to

524
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: be plausible and possible. So you don't have time traveling,

525
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: you don't have faster than light traveling, and of artificial gravity,

526
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: because I'm not convinced that things can actually be done

527
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: within the bounds of the universe were in and so

528
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: if I was approaching a book with those elements, I

529
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 1: would have to shift that slider off to the left

530
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: or whichever direction is is the less scientific end, But

531
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,239
Speaker 1: within that it's it's not enormously different. It's really just

532
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: that you you are, rather than setting your own ground

533
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: rules at the start, you're coming into play with a

534
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: series of ground ules already there, which are of course

535
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: the real Those are the real world, so you have

536
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: to research those. And it doesn't mean that it's considerably

537
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: more work than just making it up and then ensuring

538
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: you're consistent with what you've made up. But there is

539
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: a there's a definite satisfaction to basically working with what

540
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: what the universe allows and then building something like, for example,

541
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: a civilization and giant spiders, and there was a lot

542
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: of fun to read about. Well, then let me ask

543
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: you a series of short questions that we ask all

544
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: of our science fiction author guests to sort of acquaint

545
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: you in that universe. First question is philosophical question about

546
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: star trek transporters. Is it your opinion that a star

547
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: trek transporter kills you and creates a clone somewhere else,

548
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: or that it actually transports your atoms to your destination.

549
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: The cynic in me definitely goes with the first one.

550
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: There's a glory that the China Navel book called Krack

551
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: and where this is a kind of a minor issue

552
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: that has explored in an absolutely glorious scene in the book.

553
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean it is, it's it's it's kind

554
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: of hard to justify. And I appreciate it's in this

555
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 1: series because it's a lot cheaper to show on the

556
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: screen than actually having things like all bit planet shuttles

557
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: and things like that. But um, yeah, that the technology

558
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: is frankly terrifying when you start to think through the

559
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: implications on it. So if you think it is something

560
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: that kills you in clones, you would you be willing

561
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: to step into a transporter. I honestly think that one

562
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: of the great lessons of modern civilization is there are

563
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: very few terrifyingly unawysed things people won't do. Just cut

564
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: down on the commute. That's probably too You probably become

565
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 1: totally commonplace to kill yourself and be cloned at your

566
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: workplace every day. Well, in the vein of science fiction

567
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 1: tech becoming real, what technology that you see in science

568
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: fiction would you most like see become actual reality something

569
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: we can actually use on a purely practical level. I

570
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: think teleportation, if it was reliable and freely available, would

571
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: make a colossal amount of difference portals even though, or

572
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: even even better. One of Peter Hamilton's recent book Salvation

573
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: is a world where basically portal technology to anyway you

574
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: can get your portal as you would do is it

575
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: is just perhaps commonplace. And you have examples where there's

576
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: one action scene going through a house where every room

577
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: in the house is in a different place and the

578
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: doorways are just portals to take you from continent continent

579
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: and even into other other planets, just like stepping through

580
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: a room. Yeah, that's seen reminding me a lot of

581
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: sort of Hyperion where they have a house with rooms

582
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: in different solar systems. So on the topic then of

583
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: transport across solar systems, what's your personal answer to the

584
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: Fermi paradox? That is why I haven't aliens visited Earth yet.

585
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 1: Do you think that they aren't out there, or there

586
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: aren't interested in nurse, or that is not long lived enough.

587
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: I believe that there's life. That life is probably not

588
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: that rare in the galaxy, in the universe. I mean

589
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: not that rare still means obviously there are vast tracts

590
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: of universe with very little life in it, because that

591
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 1: have the universe works. But I believe that intelligent life

592
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: such as might be sending signals that we could theoretically

593
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: pick up. It's probably a lot rarer. There's um The

594
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: Cohen and Stewart book Evolving an Alien Involving the Alien Sorry,

595
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: talks about intelligent and extelligent, and the idea of having

596
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: that great overarching, fabricated civilization that would allow you to

597
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: kind of extend your reach beyond the planet you evolve

598
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: on is probably quite difficult to do. And we see

599
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: lots of examples of intelligence in the natural world where

600
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: there's no obvious sort of even looking pressure for them

601
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: to go about inventing cars and mobile phones, because they're

602
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: doing fine with the level of tool use from the

603
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: level of problem solving that they've got. I think the

604
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: other problem is that alien life is alien. It's entirely

605
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: possible that it's out there and we've even run into

606
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: its signals and not realized that's what they are. Because

607
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of background noise in the universe. In

608
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: order to have any kind of meaningful search at all

609
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: with the kind of the setting program and so forth,

610
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: you effectively have to restrict your options so that you're

611
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: looking for something that's very human. Indeed, and obviously anything

612
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 1: that evolves on an alien planet is going to be

613
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: de facto less like us than the most alien thing

614
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: on this planet. Although the counter argument, I think is

615
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: that there's a potential of convergence because we all live

616
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: in the same universe, and maths and physics is probably universal,

617
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: and therefore we might be able to communicate conceivably with

618
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: something very alien at some level, purely because we have

619
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: a common language in the basic principles of the universe.

620
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: And there's a fascinating tension there because if we met aliens,

621
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: we might only be able to converse with aliens that

622
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 1: are similar to us, which means they might not have

623
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: that much more insight into math and physics, whereas we'd

624
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: love to talk to the aliens that thinks so differently

625
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: about the universe that their insights into how it works

626
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: are shattering and mind blowing. But that may effectively be impossible. Yeah,

627
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: as far as I can work out from someone entirely

628
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: outside the discipline. It's interesting looking at the way that

629
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: animal behavior studies have gone fairly recently, because for a

630
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: long time it was a bit of a desert, certainly

631
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: from when I was studying back in the in the nineties,

632
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: because the ominent paradigm was the idea that animals couldn't

633
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: really think or feel, and maybe humans could think and feel,

634
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: but that was still up in the air with some researchers,

635
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: but animals certainly didn't. You weren't allowed to anthropomorphizers, which

636
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: basically kind of killed off any attempt at at looking

637
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: at animal behavior in any kind of meaningful way. And

638
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: this is purely my personal people, and I will probably

639
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: annoy of ours number of Bavil scientists who will justifiably

640
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: tear me a strip, But certainly now there appears to

641
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: be a bit more of an open idea to all

642
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: that's actually try and understand why they're doing things from

643
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: the point of or they living creature rather than a

644
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 1: sophisticated robot basically. And the reason I'm saying this is

645
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: if we were to want to try and understand an alien,

646
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: even an alien that was desperately trying to make itself understood,

647
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: you kind of need practice. You need to be looking

648
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: at other minds and on. You know, we've got some

649
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: effectively some training wheels other minds here on Earth, and

650
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: we could conceivably, Yeah, we could, we could, and we

651
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: are I think now trying to work on understanding. I

652
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: see that the lesson is pay attention to your cat

653
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: because it could help you understand the aliens. Well, then

654
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: let's talk about your novel, because this brings us to

655
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: very similar themes. I really enjoyed reading Doors of Eden, congratulations,

656
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,919
Speaker 1: and the novel features sort of multiple parallel worlds, which

657
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: is a familiar concept in science fiction. But you introduced

658
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: a couple of very clever and new elements exploring how

659
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: intelligence might develop differently in each of these parallel worlds,

660
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 1: and how that intelligence could potentially control and bridge those worlds. So,

661
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: first I want to ask you what gave you the

662
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 1: idea to use this concept in your novel. Did you

663
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: start from the science concept and try to build a

664
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: story around it, or was there a story you wanted

665
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: to tell that needed sort of this mechanism very much

666
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: the first basically I wanted for quite a while to

667
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: write a big, sort of speculative evolution book. There was

668
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: a convention I was at years ago in London where

669
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 1: they had a very good speculatory revolution track of talks,

670
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: and they had some of big names in the business

671
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: in Dougal Dixon and themo Customer and so forth, to

672
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: discuss just various sort of speculative world that put together

673
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: and how they had thought through the biology and so forth.

674
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: And I've avoid been fascinated by pale intelligion, particularly things

675
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: like I really enjoyed Steven J. Gould's book Wonderful Life

676
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: and his slightly off the wall exploration of the Burgess

677
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: Shale fauna and things like that, and the possibility that

678
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: he raises there that there's no the evolutionary course of

679
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: life on this planet is in no way re ordained,

680
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: and it's not even necessarily that well the best thing

681
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: one At any given stage, there's a lot of chance,

682
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: and it could have at any given point it could

683
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: have gone completely differently, and we could be sitting here

684
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: as the end result of a completely different evolutionary train.

685
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what I wanted to explore in

686
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: the book. And then, of course, you know, that's the

687
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: under arching story that the the human scale plot then

688
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: gets kind of built up around. But really the heart

689
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: of it is the kind of experiments in speculative evolution

690
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: and just thinking through balancing things going differently with the

691
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: kind of rules and principles that we at least think

692
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: that would apply to revolution under any circumstances. And it

693
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: seems to be something of a theme in your other novels,

694
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: Children or Time and Children are Ruined. These examples are

695
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: sort of varied evolution, intelligence arising in spiders or an

696
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: octopi or and so. Do you think that intelligence is

697
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: sort of inevitable and a million parallel universes you would

698
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: get intelligence on Earth in some significant fraction of them,

699
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: or do you think that any species is essentially capable

700
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: of it? I mean, I suppose the key point for

701
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: me as a writer's intelligence is narratively useful. If all

702
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: of that had gone on without intelligence, then it still

703
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: can be a very interesting piece of speculative evolution, and

704
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 1: it doesn't plug very well into any kind of human

705
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: level narrative if you have worlds and worlds without anything.

706
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: And I mean whenever you see these kind of broad

707
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: takes on sort of multiple strands of evolution and so forth,

708
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a book I read recently by Daniel

709
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: Benson call Junction, which does it with a number of

710
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 1: different eight completely alien worlds where you get to see

711
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: the kind of what they've come up with, and there

712
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: isn't intelligence is that is not universal. In fact, it's

713
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: almost not there at all. But there is at least

714
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: one example, and you always I think in box by

715
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 1: one example where you meet something that is obviously thinking

716
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: in some way and building in some way and doing

717
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: something that brings it to that kind of human level,

718
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: even if it is very alien. Indeed, I mean, in

719
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: all honesty, and this is very much going by the

720
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: Cohen and Stewart's metric of all, look what has happened

721
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: in the past before people, before kind of early hominids,

722
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: there's no real suggestion that intelligence had turned up. And

723
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: it may have done, and it may just not aun

724
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: less new traces. If if you had intelligence that didn't

725
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: lead itself to a kind of a manufacturing base and

726
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: a building building of tools and structures and so forth,

727
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: in the same way that some of my intelligence and

728
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: doors of Eden don't lend themselves to building things like that,

729
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: we wouldn't know and you know, several of the civilizations

730
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: I post it wouldn't necessarily leave any kind of fossil

731
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: trace that you would identify as intelligence. But there's certainly

732
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: no evidence that intelligence has turned up in the half

733
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: a billion years of life that we've got a record for,

734
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: and therefore I suspected probably isn't inevitable at all. And

735
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: there is, obviously, when we're talking about the Fermi paradox earlier,

736
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: there's always that rather dour idea that well, when it

737
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: turns up, it basically then just accelerates until it destroys

738
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: itself and knocks herself backed down into a point where

739
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 1: it isn't really a civilization anymore. And that also, I mean,

740
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: I kind of didn't give that idea much credence where

741
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 1: I first heard it decades ago, and now I'm looking

742
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: at thinking, yeah, okay, I see the point there that

743
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: that does seem to be what we're on the right doing.

744
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: So fine, all right, Well I want to talk about

745
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: that some more with our guest, Adrian Shakosky, But first

746
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Okay, we're back and we're

747
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: talking to Adrian Chaikowski, science fiction author of the book

748
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 1: Doors of Eden. The other sort of element, structural element

749
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: of your novel is this concept of many worlds and

750
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: having parallel universes and so you made a comment earlier

751
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: about being limited in science fiction to sort of writing

752
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 1: to the rules of our universe. Is it critical to

753
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,320
Speaker 1: you when you write your science fiction that you follow

754
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: the rules of our universe, that you that the physics

755
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: be plausible, or do you feel free to sort of

756
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: create your own physics and then followed those rules? Yeah,

757
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, I live in I live in

758
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 1: a kind of morbid dread all sort of picked up

759
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 1: my actual scientists forgetting the science wrong. And I think

760
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: there's if you're writing something and you have the science

761
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 1: role and someone reading the book understands that, then that's

762
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: going to kick him out of the immersion for the

763
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: reading experience. Now, there's always going to be a level

764
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 1: of stuff where again I don't know the questions to ask,

765
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: and I'm getting it wrong. With that real and knowing

766
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: I'm getting it wrong, but I kind of fellished my

767
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: duty as a writer to get it as right as

768
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: I possibly can and therefore keep the number of disappointed

769
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: scientifically minded readers to a minimum. I guess, well, that's

770
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: very kind of you. As a physicist. I certainly enjoy

771
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: reading scientist fiction novels where they are consistent with the

772
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: rules that they lay down. So if they create new

773
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: laws of physics, that's wonderful, that's creative, But then it

774
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: troubles me if then they depart from those in order

775
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: to get some story effect that they'd like to achieve,

776
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: regardless of the rules that they've set for themselves. Yeah,

777
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: I mean, my current project is more of it on

778
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: the space opera side. So the kind of the physics

779
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: slider is set off towards where I can kind of

780
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: I'm inventing stuff to do with kind of sort of

781
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: hyperspace travel and that kind of thing. But it's a

782
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: lot like building a magic system from a fantasy world.

783
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: And what I mean exactly as you say, it's all

784
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: to do with you've got to be consistent and you

785
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 1: can't suddenly have all. In this case, I can suddenly

786
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: do this unless it's been well foreshadowed within the kind

787
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: of a sistem you said. So then let me ask

788
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: you about the science in this novel. There's the many

789
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: worlds or the multiverse in your view, is the multiverse

790
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: something that's real in our universe? I do not have

791
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 1: any kind of educated stand point as to to make

792
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: a call on that one. In the real universe. I

793
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: suspect I do not understand the physics and the maths

794
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: enough to say. But to me it seems like I

795
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 1: don't think there needs to be one. I mean, it

796
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: comes down to a bit of an Okhm's Raither thing

797
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: in that I appreciate that every quantum event kind of

798
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: has sort of branching parles off from it, but kind

799
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: of uncertainty aside. It seems to me that each you know,

800
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: there is a resolution each time, and the resolution probably

801
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: takes one path rather than constantly splitting into a multiplicity

802
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: of of universes. Every kind of fraction of a second

803
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: that the universes is universe is in existence. It's a

804
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: very I mean from a human narrative point of view,

805
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: it's a very attractive idea to have an effect. What

806
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: would be an infinity if that makes any sense of

807
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: university to choose from, because you could always find a

808
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 1: universe where some thumb particular version of event has happened.

809
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: And of course we're looking at events on a human level,

810
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: So you know an event where this will went a

811
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 1: different way or where that that happened, and you could

812
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: maybe you could travel there and then maybe you would

813
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: you get all these TV shows like Sliders or or

814
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: so forth, where you're going through all these parallels where

815
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: different things have happened, and that it's it's a it's

816
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: a great basis for a story, but the kind of

817
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: the scientist in me kind of shies away from the

818
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: narrative convenience of its all. So then tell me that

819
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: your prices in coming over the concept of this connection

820
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: between intelligence and these multiple worlds, how one intelligence one

821
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: of these worlds could control or even crack through into

822
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: other universes. Um Well, weirdly enough, this is something I'm

823
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: getting from Brian Cox, who I suspect will be horrified

824
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: to be associated with anything I think like this. But

825
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: this is obviously Broncox the scientist rather than Brincox the actor.

826
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 1: So he was talking about he was specifically actually think

827
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 1: talking about ghosts or something like that, but he was

828
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 1: talking about the the the way that in a absurn

829
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: they're kind of breaking things, the universe down to its

830
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: most fundamental bits so that there isn't effectively there's no

831
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: room left for ghosts. If ghosts existed and had any

832
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: kind of effect on the actual universe, it should be

833
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: detectable because there would be particles or energy or some

834
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 1: kind of ghostly fingerprint on what was left there. And

835
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: if you break things right down and there's nothing that's ghostly,

836
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: then there are no ghosts. And that was he that's

837
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: his kind of philosophy of that. And so it struck

838
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: me that if I've got this set up where there

839
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,399
Speaker 1: are these multiple timelines existing kind of right next door

840
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: to each other, and if, as the book posits, there

841
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: are kind of weaknesses and points where they can intersect,

842
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: then if you had a sufficiently advanced technology, you pick

843
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: it up. And that's kind of what certainly were they

844
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: one of the more the more important sort of timeline

845
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: cultures in the book. They have a technology that's entirely

846
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: based around these kind of junctures between the world because

847
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: they were as the evolved, they became sensitive to them.

848
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: And again it's another it's a bit like the way

849
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 1: that there's if I've got this right, the biochemistry of

850
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: photosynthesis kind of exploit quantum mechanics to a certain extent

851
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: to work more efficiently. And if you had a if

852
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: you had a world with ghosts, as you had a

853
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: world with parallel world or anything like that that actually

854
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: was there, things would evolve to exploit it. If you

855
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: had ghosts, and ghosts could affect the world in anyway

856
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: by by moving things on a table or wrapping on

857
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: the walls. Ghosts are therefore a source of energy. You'd

858
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: have a thing that fed on ghosts if there were ghosts,

859
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: and just just the same way. You know, if in

860
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: one of these worlds, because you've got these these parallels around,

861
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: there's ascension. Species evolves that is sensitive to the places

862
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 1: where these worlds interact, and then that becomes a place. Well,

863
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: that's their energy freelance that they kind of build their

864
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: society on, and that kind of thing. So if ghosts exist,

865
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,840
Speaker 1: or parallel worlds exist in our universe, you'd expect particle

866
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: physicists to discover them first. But also I would I

867
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: would expect evolution to have discovered them hundreds of millions

868
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: of years ago. I would expect there to be some

869
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: kind of single celled organism that flourished in the presence

870
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,760
Speaker 1: of ghosts because there's energy. Because you know, if ghosts

871
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 1: can do a thing, make a noise, lower the temperature,

872
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 1: rattlesome chains, that is energy in the system, and energy

873
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: in the system is a lunch for something you would

874
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: have extreme a file ghost bacteria, is what I'm saying.

875
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Well, let me ask you one last question

876
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: about your portrayal of scientists and physicists. I find that

877
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: scientists and science fiction are often portrayed as dangerous, blindly

878
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: following their search for the truth, oblivious to the consequence, etcetera. Now,

879
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: in your novel, I really enjoyed that your physicist k

880
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: exploring the multiverse has a bit more nuance to her

881
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: approach though as a scientist. Thank you for that. Can

882
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about how you saw

883
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: her internal struggles between the desire to know and understand

884
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: and also the desire to keep her world and her

885
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: loved ones safe. Um, yeah, I mean it's I mean,

886
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: I kind of done. As I just read their Children

887
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: of Time Children of Time will know, I've kind of

888
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: done the more traditional mad scientists with Avon occurred, although

889
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: she's not the bad guy at any point, particularly, I mean,

890
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: she's a bit wrapped up in our own desires and ambitions,

891
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: but she's certainly not the villain of the piece. With Kay,

892
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: she's one who has I mean, unlike unlike Evona, and

893
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: I guess she's someone who's lived in the in our

894
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: real world. She's from here and now this with a

895
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: writing headache I'm probably not going to repeat, but yes,

896
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: the large show of the book is set in the

897
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: modern world in roughly the present day, although obviously written

898
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 1: before all of this business. And she's someone who's lived

899
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: her entire life with a theorem which has been completely

900
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: impossible to prove because effectively she doesn't have the missing piece,

901
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: which is the whole parallel world's business. And it's a

902
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: theory that's based on some things I've kind of peripherally

903
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: picked up about the idea of particular means of encrypting

904
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: information and decrypting information and things like that, and and

905
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: also kind of based on flat land, which is actually

906
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,760
Speaker 1: something I've used a couple of times in my writing,

907
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: the idea that if you are able to kind of

908
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: a cent or higher dimension in the purely sort of

909
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: g M trical sense of dimensions, it will give you

910
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: a colossal amount of freedom and influence on a lower

911
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: dimension world because of the way you wouldn't be bound

912
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,959
Speaker 1: by it, and thence you could get in places and

913
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: access places and look into places that would be completely

914
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: hidden to someone restricted by the recommentional number of dimensions,

915
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: and so that's kind of I've extended that to having

916
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: a dimension which is the access of parallel world, and

917
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 1: obviously there are Monday again, it's it's like the evolution.

918
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,240
Speaker 1: There are mundane applications to that, such as in this case.

919
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: It completely makes a nonsense of any attempt at data

920
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: security because you can always get to the data. They

921
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: made for a lot of fun twists in the book. Wonderful. Well,

922
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 1: thanks very much for answering all of our questions. I

923
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: would love to ask you also about your future project.

924
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: You mentioned you're working on space opera again. Is there

925
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: anything you can tell us about that or is it

926
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: all under wraps announcement of recently just kind of the

927
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: main stick is it's set quite a long in the

928
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: future where there is a humanity has a starfaring civilization.

929
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: There are other species around with star faring civilizations at

930
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: roughly the same level, which is again a narratively convenient conceit.

931
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: And the mechanics of getting from star to star involved

932
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 1: going through a kind of an hyper space called in space,

933
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: and probably there are things that come out of on

934
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: space and that are kind of natives there and some

935
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: of the things are called architects. You know about the

936
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: size of the moon. And what they do is find

937
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: planets that people are other sentient life live on and

938
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: turn them into avant garde sculptures, which is fatal for

939
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: everyone living on it. And they've done this to Earth,

940
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 1: which is what you see at the very beginning of

941
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: the book, and they've done it to a number of

942
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: viewer planets. And then they went away because we were

943
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: able to contact them and say we're here, And as

944
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: soon as they realized that people were actually there, they

945
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: just went away. And then the rumors have started about

946
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: a couple of generations later that actually they didn't go

947
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: away all that much. And may you be very in

948
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: fact back I see. Well, that sounds like a fascinating concept.

949
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: I can't wait to read it. All right. Well, thanks

950
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 1: again for coming out our program. It's very very kind

951
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 1: of you to invite me. All Right, pretty cool interview.

952
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,919
Speaker 1: And what was your takeaway from talking to the Dream

953
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: Well that was super fun for me because I've been

954
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: a big fan of his work for a long time.

955
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: I really liked a few things about the interview. I

956
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: liked his acknowledgement that alien life is probably really really alien.

957
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:29,279
Speaker 1: You know, that it could be out there and it

958
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: could just be like too hard to talk to. And

959
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: that's sort of satisfying in one way, because we want

960
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 1: to meet alien life because we hope to discover other

961
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: ways of living. But then they'd be frustrating because it'd

962
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: be really hard to figure out how to talk to them.

963
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 1: So I thought that was really realistic. And I also

964
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: liked that he, you know, respected the rules of our universe.

965
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 1: He wants to write a book exploring how things could

966
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: happen in our universe because he didn't feel confident inventing

967
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: rules for another universe. I thought that was pretty cool,

968
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: and he's done a great job of imagining, you know,

969
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: other crazy things that could happen in our universe without

970
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: changing any of the laws of physics. Right. Yeah, did

971
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,439
Speaker 1: he have any regrets about non including dragons. I didn't

972
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: say there were no dragons. Spoiler alert, spoiler alert. And

973
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: the other really interesting comment he made was that he

974
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: doesn't think it's necessary for intelligence to arise, which I

975
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: think is fascinating because in the book that you hear

976
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: me talk about in the interview, he has all these

977
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: parallel multiverses in which intelligence arises in all sorts of

978
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: different creative ways, but he doesn't think it's necessary. He

979
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: thinks we could have had Earth and life, a multicellular

980
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: life and just all have it be kind of dumb. Yeah,

981
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 1: it's totally possible, right, Like, if you wipe humans out

982
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,399
Speaker 1: right now, the Earth would keep going. The Earth would

983
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: keep going. And it's not clear whether intelligent life is inevitable.

984
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of fascinating studies recently about how

985
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: life began sort of quickly on Earth, but an intelligent

986
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: life became sort of late. And that's the us that

987
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,479
Speaker 1: life might be inevitable, but intelligent life might be rare.

988
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: But then again, you know we're basing that on just

989
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: one example, which is why it's so much fun to

990
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 1: think about all the other possibilities and all the other

991
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: examples that live in Adrian Sharkovsky's multiverse, and actual intelligence

992
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: in an intelligent species might be even rarer yet to be.

993
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: Maybe we can tap into the multiverse podcast network and

994
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: listen to that dinosaur podcast for better jokes. Maybe we'll

995
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: get better jokes from them. That's where all our best

996
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: jokes come from. I see you've been talking to dinosaur

997
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 1: Daniel having you, I'm plagiarizing all of his good ideas.

998
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: When you do work together. How do you high five?

999
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: That's a sore point. Okay, his little arms don't reach

1000
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: very high, so I try not to make fun of it.

1001
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks for joining us. I hope that

1002
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,640
Speaker 1: you enjoyed then and got you to think about all

1003
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: the different ways that our universe could have played out

1004
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 1: and how special it is that we're here. And if

1005
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 1: you have a science fiction book that you'd like us

1006
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,839
Speaker 1: to break down and interview the author, please send us

1007
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:02,439
Speaker 1: a suggestion to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com.

1008
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, See you next time. Thanks for listening,

1009
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: and remember that Daniel and Jorge explained the universe is

1010
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,319
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from

1011
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1012
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.