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Speaker 1: Ah beaut force. If it doesn't work, you're just not

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Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to software Radio, Special Operations, military

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Speaker 1: news and straight talk with the guys and the community

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Speaker 1: SOCCREP dot com on time on Target and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're excited to have on Huge Slatter. It's been a

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Speaker 1: long time since, really, Tim free Back, since we've had

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Speaker 1: a guy served in Africa at the African military on

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Speaker 1: the podcast. And there is no African military well you

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Speaker 1: know what I mean. He was he was a zimbabwe

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Speaker 1: was air fight at Air Vice Marshall. There, he's someone

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Speaker 1: who served in Africa. He served in an African military.

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Speaker 1: I dare you trying to make people so um? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for it to have him on um. And

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Speaker 1: also po w um which is a pretty crazy story

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Speaker 1: in his book today. Yeah, it's wild. Um. I had

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Speaker 1: heard of this gentleman Huge Sladder because Tim Backs, you

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Speaker 1: previous guest who served in the Salute Scouts, had said,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is a must read book. You gotta

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Speaker 1: take a look at this. So I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean Tim Backs recommends him, then we'll definitely hit

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Speaker 1: him up. Yeah, and Tim was a great guest. I

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Speaker 1: love that I'd like to have him back on at

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Speaker 1: some point. Yeah, we we should, We definitely should. Um So,

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Speaker 1: I guess the first order of business is the March

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Speaker 1: for Our Lives. You were at the March for Our

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Speaker 1: Lives rally in New York, so you have a pretty

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Speaker 1: objective standpoint of what went on, as opposed to you know,

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Speaker 1: most of us who just saw it on TV as

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Speaker 1: far as what, yeah, what's going on at that protest

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Speaker 1: or that march. Um, you know, we were out there

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Speaker 1: filming a documentary, you and Daniel Beasy right, Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: it'll it'll be a short documentary like fifteen minutes or so,

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Speaker 1: and really just the concept behind it is that, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's really just us going around and interviewing people and

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Speaker 1: trying to interview as many different types of people with

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Speaker 1: as many different viewpoints as we can and then kind

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Speaker 1: of put that together into a short piece. Um So,

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Speaker 1: you know, conceptually, instead of having you know, a talking

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Speaker 1: head or even someone like myself interpreting what the march

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Speaker 1: was about, you're just hearing directly from the people who

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Speaker 1: are there. Um So, I'm excited. I think it will

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Speaker 1: actually be you know, a meaningful piece when when it's

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Speaker 1: all put together well, what was your impression, Because people

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Speaker 1: who listen to the to the podcast reader articles, they

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Speaker 1: know your feelings. You're a very pro Second Amendment guy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you've spoken length about that. You don't think banning an

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Speaker 1: A R fifteen, which seems to be like their big thing,

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Speaker 1: is going to make any difference. So I mean, just

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Speaker 1: but you were objective interviewing me there. Yeah. I was

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Speaker 1: just trying to ask people questions and try to have

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Speaker 1: them articulate their viewpoints. And um, I think there there's

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Speaker 1: definitely a diversity of viewpoints amongst the people who are

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Speaker 1: out there that day and what they feel should be done. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think really across the board, to include the pro

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Speaker 1: Trump people, the pro n r A people we talked to,

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Speaker 1: um all everybody seems to be in favor of stronger

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Speaker 1: background checks. Um. They think we can do better there.

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Speaker 1: They think we do better with mental health issues. UM. Now,

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Speaker 1: then you get into some other issues and there's a divide.

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Speaker 1: Even when you even the people who are pro gun control,

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Speaker 1: they have different views about what should be done. There

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Speaker 1: are some people who think we should ban assault weapons.

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Speaker 1: There are some people who think we should do away

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Speaker 1: with the A R fifteen there's no reason for people

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Speaker 1: to have guns like that, At least on Twitter. There's

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Speaker 1: some people who think we should ban all weapons, and

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Speaker 1: you do talk to some of you know, we talked

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Speaker 1: to some of the on Twitter right now. I think

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Speaker 1: that as I was on Twitter, it was like banned.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna look right now because I saw that it

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Speaker 1: was like the number one thing on Twitter trending. So

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Speaker 1: it's not herbally to say that. There's people who know

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Speaker 1: that they were out there for sure. Um and I

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Speaker 1: would say that was like the minority viewpoint. There you go.

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Speaker 1: Repeal the Second Amendment is one of the main things

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Speaker 1: trending on Twitter right now. So I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't take a census of everyone at the march

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Speaker 1: was pretty big. What I don't think most people outright

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Speaker 1: wanted to ban guns, although there were some people who

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Speaker 1: feel that way, that we should just take away everybody's

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Speaker 1: guns and um and I even talk to those people.

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Speaker 1: I was like, you know, I actually I tried to

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Speaker 1: mention this with everyone. I was like, what do you

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Speaker 1: think about this um cultural schism in America? Because you know,

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Speaker 1: you the person I'm talking to at the march, you're

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Speaker 1: a Native New Yorker, like you don't know anything about

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Speaker 1: guns or gun culture. Um. And when you say native

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Speaker 1: New Yorker, we should say New York City because people

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Speaker 1: up state I sometimes get those emails like upstate New

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Speaker 1: York people love their guns. Right. Yeah, absolutely, that's a

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Speaker 1: totally different culture. Um. Yeah, I'm talking about people who were,

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Speaker 1: you know, live in New York City and have been

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Speaker 1: here pretty much their whole lives. Um. They don't understand

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Speaker 1: what it's like for somebody living in you know, Central Georgia,

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Speaker 1: where you have guns in the house and that's normal.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when you're ten or eleven or twelve

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Speaker 1: or whatever, your dad teaches you how to shoot a

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Speaker 1: rifle and you know, you go shoot guns in your backyard,

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Speaker 1: you go hunting whatever. I mean. It's just a total

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Speaker 1: different cultures that people like that they don't think twice

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Speaker 1: about guns. They don't see it as a as a

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Speaker 1: as a big issue. Um. And it'd be like telling

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Speaker 1: someone in you know, in those areas about a factor

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Speaker 1: week in New York City or like riding the subway

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Speaker 1: or something like that. It's like they would have no

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Speaker 1: conception of that at all. Um. And it's not that

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Speaker 1: they're bad people. We're not talking about very different bad people.

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Speaker 1: Were just saying that, you know, there is a cultural

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Speaker 1: divide in this country and between urban and rural areas,

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Speaker 1: and those people are going to have different types of

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Speaker 1: views about things. And I tried to bring that up

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Speaker 1: to people, It's like, what do you think about that?

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Speaker 1: And some of them were like, no, I understand that.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are people elsewhere in America and they

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Speaker 1: feel it's they're right, and you know, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to take away their guns, you know, I just want

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Speaker 1: some more restrictions so that crazy people can't get all

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Speaker 1: the weapons. Um. And then there's other people I talked

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Speaker 1: to who are like, I don't care what they think.

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Speaker 1: We need to take away all the guns there there is,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I could say this is a native

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Speaker 1: New Yorker, like, there is definitely an elitist attitude of

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Speaker 1: some people on the coast. So you think of funk

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Speaker 1: Middle America, they're all backwards, they're all racists, they're all rednecks.

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Speaker 1: I've sat at dinner parties in New York and I

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Speaker 1: have heard like the most asinine things said about what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the rest of this country. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: it would be. It's just one of those weird contradictions

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Speaker 1: where like you'll have people, You'll have a bunch of

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Speaker 1: white people sitting around debating about how non racist they are.

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Speaker 1: It's like, this is just hilarious. Like there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: of affluent white people talking about how non racist they are,

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Speaker 1: Like are you fucking kidding me? Um? But then they'll

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Speaker 1: sit there and talk all kinds of uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: talk about white trash and rednecks and racists, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: you don't even have a clue what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: You've never gone to these places, you've never met these people.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's there's racism in in Middle America,

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Speaker 1: there's no question about that. But they're just like I

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Speaker 1: lived in the South for eight years and it's just like, categorically,

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Speaker 1: you know, paint all those people with a broad brush,

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Speaker 1: that they're all racists and they're all bad Awards idiots.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's just so offensive and ridiculous. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know, Like, you're just an idiot if you believe that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's from watching dB and watching watching duck Dynasty. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also, you know, I've heard white people who have

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Speaker 1: racist attitude and s towards black people who don't really

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Speaker 1: hang out in areas like that, and something from like

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Speaker 1: watching b et this is how every black person acts

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Speaker 1: listening to you know, like white supremacists in central in

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Speaker 1: the middle of Middle States of America talk about how

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Speaker 1: they hate the Jews, and it's like, have you ever

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Speaker 1: met a Jew? Do you know any Jews? Like, well, then,

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Speaker 1: how how do you hate these people? You don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about them? Yeah, it's very true. So here was

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Speaker 1: my first hand experience in the March for Our Lives.

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Speaker 1: I was in Delray Beach, Florida, uh, living it up,

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Speaker 1: enjoying life with a mohito in one hand and a

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Speaker 1: Cuban cigar. I've actually just when when this happened. I

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Speaker 1: was at a Starbucks, but I saw across the street

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Speaker 1: there was there was marching probably like a dozen senior

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Speaker 1: citizens with like anti guns signs and March for our

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Speaker 1: Live signs. And next to me, we're like young teenage

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Speaker 1: girls and one of them goes yes, as you know

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Speaker 1: is the most overused phrase of you're looking at me

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Speaker 1: like I'm nuts, The like y A S S. That's

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Speaker 1: what they all say now it's like me, it means yes,

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Speaker 1: but it's become it's become like the phrase you're you're

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Speaker 1: you're not listening to enough, I guess young teenage girls

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Speaker 1: on Twitter or fucking girls your age on Twitter. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: and then one of them turned and was like, I

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Speaker 1: think the problem is the people, not the guns. And

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Speaker 1: then it was like, I think it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of both. And it made me realize that this is

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Speaker 1: what your average sixteen year old girls opinion of this

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Speaker 1: issue is. They're not very well informed on the Second Amendment,

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Speaker 1: which dude, totally understandable, which makes me, uh sensitive to

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Speaker 1: the fact that on Twitter, I would say, people who

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Speaker 1: are more on our side are calling these kids Nazis

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Speaker 1: and and are like really vilifying them for having a

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Speaker 1: difference of opinion. And the reason I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really stupid argument to make. For one, we always call

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Speaker 1: out people when they say, oh, Donald Trump is literally Hitler,

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Speaker 1: Well you're those same people are doing the exact same

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Speaker 1: thing when you're calling these kids Nazis. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: people including myself, when you're sixteen, seventeen or more liberal,

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Speaker 1: I was way more left wing and eventually I you know,

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Speaker 1: my views evolved very much because of people like Ron

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Speaker 1: Paul when he ran for president. Like what he said

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Speaker 1: resonated with me. But keep in mind, as these kids

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Speaker 1: get older and their opinions on issues evolved, they're not

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Speaker 1: gonna want to team up with the people who called

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Speaker 1: them Nazis. Yeah, well, they're not going to be millennial

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Speaker 1: social justice warriors forever. They're gonna grow up. Some of

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Speaker 1: them maybe, but some of them may not be. A

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Speaker 1: lot of them are gonna go and they're gonna, you know,

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Speaker 1: get jobs and join the workforce, and they're gonna pay taxes,

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Speaker 1: and their political views are going to change over time.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's tons of studies that show how young

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Speaker 1: people are generally more liberal and people become more conservative

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Speaker 1: as they get older. Um, you know, these kids, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is what it is. I mean, when you're young,

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Speaker 1: you don't have a lot of knowledge, and it's not

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Speaker 1: because you're a bad person. How could you you're not

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Speaker 1: old enough to acquire all this knowledge and have all

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Speaker 1: these experiences. It doesn't mean they're bad. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you also think you know far more at that

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Speaker 1: part than you do I because you don't know what

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Speaker 1: you don't know, yeah, you know, we were all stupid.

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Speaker 1: You know, are not stupid, but kind of ignorant at sixteen.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, when you're a young person, you're

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Speaker 1: filled with passionate conviction, and you know, as you get older,

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Speaker 1: you start to have I think, uh more doubts because

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Speaker 1: you realize how much you don't know in life. But

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Speaker 1: I am disappointed that people our age and older don't

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Speaker 1: have the foresight to say, you know what, maybe it

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to malign these people with Nazis and

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Speaker 1: compare you know them like raising a fist on stage

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Speaker 1: to the you know, seguile. Like I think it's really

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Speaker 1: it's it's both childish, smature and strategically, if you're trying

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Speaker 1: to convince these people to come to your side, it's

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Speaker 1: not a very good strategy. Well that's how I I've

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Speaker 1: always seen you know, this issue, Um, the way a

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Speaker 1: lot of gun owners or pro Second Amendment people behave

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Speaker 1: is just immature. I mean, we'll have to call it

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Speaker 1: what it is. I mean, I see them, you know,

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Speaker 1: posting all this wild stuff on social media, and it's like, look,

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Speaker 1: you're the gun owner, you're the one advocating for civil rights.

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Speaker 1: You have to be the adult in the room, and

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Speaker 1: even when the other side acts stupid and they say

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Speaker 1: dumb things, it's okay to counter that. But running around

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Speaker 1: with all this sort of vitriolic talk, and I'm aligning

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Speaker 1: people like this and you know, like that whole just

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Speaker 1: like gunbro culture and these people, I'm against everything they

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Speaker 1: stand for. It's just kind of immature and it also

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Speaker 1: lacks a kind of pragmaticism. Um, And I don't think

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Speaker 1: those words have ever been very well received by the

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Speaker 1: people I direct them to. I'm just pointing out that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we should be the adults in their room.

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Speaker 1: We shouldn't. We shouldn't go down to their level just

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Speaker 1: because some kids or or some anti gun people are

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Speaker 1: acting stupid. We shouldn't like replicate that or mirror their

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Speaker 1: behavior and engage them in conversation the way that you did.

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Speaker 1: Because it's very likely someone spoke to you who was

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Speaker 1: like level headed and they're like, you know what, that

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Speaker 1: guy made some sense and it will resonate with them

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Speaker 1: and you. I mean, it was interesting because I went

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Speaker 1: and I tried to interview everyone in an objective way

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Speaker 1: without you know, projecting my thoughts or opinions on them,

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Speaker 1: and I was just stunned to see that the pro

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Speaker 1: Trump and r A folks and the the gun control

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Speaker 1: marchers actually agreed on a very fundamental issue about background checks,

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Speaker 1: and they could probably work together on that issue. But

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Speaker 1: if you were at the march at that moment, what

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Speaker 1: was going on is these two groups were yelling at

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Speaker 1: each other. Fuck you know, fuck you, and they're screaming

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Speaker 1: at each other and hurling insults. UM. So it's, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's ironic, and you know, there's a lot of group

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Speaker 1: think taking place, I'm sure on both sides, and uh,

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Speaker 1: that's unfortunate because they can probably work together on some issues,

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Speaker 1: not all issues. There's some things that are always going

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Speaker 1: to disagree on. Um. But that's you know, that signals

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Speaker 1: a lost opportunity. I'm wondering what the age demo was,

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Speaker 1: because this was a rally Allegedly they're saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: started by kids basically in high school, but they're definitely

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Speaker 1: organizers at the top who are older. Uh. Was it

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Speaker 1: a younger crowd, was it an older crowd? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was a pretty even mix.

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Speaker 1: There were definitely quite a few young people there, and

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Speaker 1: I interviewed. Um, you know, some girls in high school

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Speaker 1: who are there with their parents. Um. And but there

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Speaker 1: were also older folks, you know, older New Yorkers who

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Speaker 1: came out. There were people who some people took the

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Speaker 1: train in from Connecticut or Long Island, a lot we're

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Speaker 1: from here, from the city. UM. I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: think it was probably a pretty even uh you know,

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Speaker 1: b down as far as age. So it was a

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Speaker 1: massive rally throughout the country. Looking at the photos of

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Speaker 1: d C, New York everywhere. Do you think this is

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Speaker 1: going to change anything or that it was just a rally? No,

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think this particular rally is going

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Speaker 1: to change anything. Um. You know, I understand the uh

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Speaker 1: you know, these young people are saying, now is the moment.

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Speaker 1: Now It's gonna happen. I don't think so. But what

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Speaker 1: this is a trend that I noticed And my perhaps

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Speaker 1: my one of my bigger criticisms of the left overall

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Speaker 1: is that they, um, they tend to engage in these

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Speaker 1: sort of like emotional expressions, particularly at these protests and marches,

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Speaker 1: Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, all these things. They

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Speaker 1: don't come together, they don't mobilize around policy reforms. It's

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Speaker 1: just kind of I'm gonna go out and express myself

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Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna go back home and everything goes

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Speaker 1: back to normal and tweet about it. What I was

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Speaker 1: seeing at that march was a lot of people with

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Speaker 1: signs and a lot of people saying, you know, thoughts

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Speaker 1: and prayers is not enough. UM, It's not enough just

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Speaker 1: to be an activist. You know, we have to organize

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Speaker 1: around policy reform. We have to we have to push

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Speaker 1: our electric representatives UM on specific policy issues. And I

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Speaker 1: think that could signal UM perhaps some sort of maturing

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Speaker 1: or a realization of how to manipulate the political process

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Speaker 1: on in terms of the American left. And I think

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Speaker 1: it will be very interesting to see if these UM

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Speaker 1: protest movements are able to mobilize people towards political change

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Speaker 1: in a more substantial, uh, pragmatic way than they have

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Speaker 1: been in the past, where it's like, oh, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have this protest and we're gonna express ourselves and have

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Speaker 1: this sort of cathartic moment and nothing changes. I get

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Speaker 1: the sense that they're kind of waking up to the

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Speaker 1: futility of that. And and also to keep in mind

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Speaker 1: that these are people in in New York and even

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Speaker 1: if they are voting the way things currently are, we

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Speaker 1: have a very left wing mayor of New York City,

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Speaker 1: we have a left wing governor of New York City.

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Speaker 1: So like people are voting with with these policies in mind,

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Speaker 1: but that this is the way New York is. So

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of preaching to the choir. What they're

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Speaker 1: saying isn't necessarily resonating to the Midwest. But yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it is, and I'm not sure that

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Speaker 1: it ever will. Yeah. The only thing that has changed

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Speaker 1: recently in terms of gun laws, it's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 1: and I guess it's going sort of under the radar

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Speaker 1: because of this march was Trump banning UM bump stocks,

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Speaker 1: which was that an executive order? I I'm not sure. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'd have to go and look at myself, but it

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Speaker 1: does seem that there's going to be some kind of

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Speaker 1: movement to do away with bump stocks, which I mean

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Speaker 1: doesn't bother me any I you know, I fired I

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Speaker 1: used one um out at actually out of the shot

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Speaker 1: show at range Day one year, and I mean it's

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Speaker 1: kind of it's it's struck me as kind of like

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Speaker 1: a gimmick or a toy, you know, something you take

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Speaker 1: out to the rain can play with. And unfortunately that

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Speaker 1: one nutcase in Las Vegas used it to mow down

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Speaker 1: a lot of people in uh out at that concert. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean the bump stock and bump firing, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a way, it's a loophole around the law. You know,

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Speaker 1: the law says you can't make modifications internal modifications to

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Speaker 1: your weapon to make it fully automatic. What they did

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Speaker 1: was they found an external way and external modification to

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Speaker 1: make the weapon fully automatic. Um So it's always been

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Speaker 1: one of those things that you know, it's like kind

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Speaker 1: of getting around the intent of the law. Um So

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Speaker 1: I don't really have a problem with them closing that loophole.

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Speaker 1: That's not something that really bothers me. Yeah. Yeah, um

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Speaker 1: So that's the only thing I guess that that you

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Speaker 1: could say that is changing in terms of gun laws. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think there's probably some people angry at Trump because

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Speaker 1: they believed him to be a very pro Second Amendment guy,

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Speaker 1: and this is not seen as a pro Second Amendment action. Wow.

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Speaker 1: With Trump, it's so hard to know. I mean, he'll

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Speaker 1: go and he'll say things, you know, you remember that

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Speaker 1: comment he made like, look, I'm in favor of taking

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Speaker 1: the guns first and then do process. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: then he'll reverse course two days later and say something

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Speaker 1: totally different. So I mean, what do you make of that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I agree? Oh and and then the other thing, Um,

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Speaker 1: your opinion on this. I know you always say I

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Speaker 1: don't really care if Trump is golfing, and you think

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Speaker 1: these are nine issues. I don't even care if he

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Speaker 1: has sex with porn stars. That doesn't bother many. I

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Speaker 1: kind of wish you would just admit to it and

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Speaker 1: be like, hell, yeah, you know, I would actually respect that.

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Speaker 1: But um. The reason I mentioned that, though, is there

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Speaker 1: were some people saying that he should have at least been, uh,

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Speaker 1: I get doing something as these marches were going on

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Speaker 1: and hearing out these protesters, and he was golfing that day.

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Speaker 1: Like what was he supposed to do? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but that that's some people are outraged over the fact

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Speaker 1: that he was golfing on a day over everything I means,

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Speaker 1: they are, you know, what's what was he was he

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Speaker 1: supposed to like wade into the middle of one of

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Speaker 1: the marches and be like here be America with like

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Speaker 1: like stand up on a podium like le enitis. What

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Speaker 1: was he supposed to do? Well? I mean, what did

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Speaker 1: when all those other protests went on? What was Obama doing?

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Speaker 1: I guess people are wondering, is he hearing out these protesters?

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Speaker 1: Is he taking their views seriously? Because they are Americans?

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Speaker 1: As for the ones who are of age they are voting, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, it depends on your point

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Speaker 1: of view. I mean, this is the United States, where

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Speaker 1: you know, a democratic republic. We don't have mob rule.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the mob out on the streets can does

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Speaker 1: not you know, make legislation. Thank god for that, because

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Speaker 1: there are all kinds of nutty things that people, especially

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Speaker 1: large groups of people, when they come together, they tend

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Speaker 1: to do, you know, and believe some silly things. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean the real I guess point or value from

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Speaker 1: the perspective of the marchers is to influence who we

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Speaker 1: elect to Congress in the Senate and you know ultimately

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Speaker 1: the president. The the president as well. Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: know who cares. It's a march. You know what, what's

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Speaker 1: the president is supposed to do? I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: like we criticized presidents who make decisions bake based on polls,

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Speaker 1: playing the popularity contest, like oh, you know, like trying

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Speaker 1: to game gallop polls, you know. So I mean, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's a march as the president is supposed to like

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Speaker 1: change his opinion because of that. I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: really think that's how our country should work. So I

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Speaker 1: was at Occupy Wall Street with Mike Bins covering that

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Speaker 1: for well Cow when that went down, and you saw

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Speaker 1: some crazy people out there in New York City any rally,

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Speaker 1: you see some nut jobs. So I wondering, like, who

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Speaker 1: was the biggest nut job that you saw? Um? I

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Speaker 1: didn't interview some anyone who's too crazy. I interviewed. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I did interview one woman who went on about Obama's

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Speaker 1: shadow government and how you know most of the protesters

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Speaker 1: were paid by George Soros. Um, you know that kind

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Speaker 1: of conspiracy theory stuff. Um, but I didn't. I don't

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Speaker 1: think I interviewed anyone who was like totally like like

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Speaker 1: saying just like wazoo ganzo stuff. Other than that, all right,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were out there.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed about twenty people out of a protest that

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Speaker 1: had like over a hundred thousand people, I believe, so

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Speaker 1: it's not exactly a statistically significant I just was interested

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Speaker 1: because I always feel like there's crazy people out there

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Speaker 1: that they're just fun to talk. There was actually in

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Speaker 1: front of Trump Tower there was a fight. There was

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Speaker 1: a scuffle um between one of the gun control people

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Speaker 1: and some dude who ran out there with a flag

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Speaker 1: with an a R fifteen on it and it said

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Speaker 1: something like come and take them or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and they got into a shoving match out there. NYPD

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Speaker 1: came and broke it up real quick. I'm sure a

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Speaker 1: video of that, right maybe somebody has on video. It

426
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: actually went down so quickly that we didn't get it

427
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 1: on tape unfortunately. All right, well, looking forward to that.

428
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: It will be on probably the spec Ops channel right

429
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 1: our TV channel. Um, all right, well, with that, we

430
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 1: should get over to Hugh Sladder right on. So on

431
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: with us is Air Vice Marshal Hughes Sladder, former Chief

432
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: of Staff of the Air Force of Zimbabwe uh and

433
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: the author of Pilot Prisoner Patriot One Man's Triumph over

434
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: Torture and tragedy. And it's just a real honor to

435
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: have on someone who served in the military there in Zimbabwe.

436
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 1: We don't get to speak to people from that side

437
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 1: of the world very often. Um. Tim Back's was the

438
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: last guy that we did who I know spoke highly

439
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 1: of your book, Um, and I should throw out there.

440
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 1: The book is available exclusively at hughes Sladder dot com,

441
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: either signed or unsigned, so we're looking forward to getting

442
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: into it. And it's a honor to have you on

443
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: the show. Well, thank you and Jacko. I'm delighted to

444
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: be on the show and appreciated. The book has been

445
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: a long time coming and I thought about it for

446
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 1: a long time, but only actually put into paper when

447
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 1: my friends in Africa said, shoo, what what do you

448
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: do in the States? You've been gone a long time?

449
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: And my Americans end said, well, what did you do

450
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: in Africa? We don't know much about it, So that's

451
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: that's the time to write a book, but hopefully appealed

452
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: to both sides, and it does have a military back

453
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: back down to it obviously because that was my life

454
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: in Africa. But thank you for taking the time to

455
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: do this. I appreciate it absolutely. Who you know. After

456
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: I saw Tim Bach's endorsing your book, I was like, Okay,

457
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: we definitely have to get this gentleman on. And you know,

458
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: it's very rare that you know, we cover a lot

459
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,000
Speaker 1: of military topics, but it's very rare that you get

460
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody who served in a air force

461
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: in Africa. UM. I can't recall reading a book or

462
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: seeing an interview about somebody who served in the Rhodesian

463
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: Air Force. So this is really a unique experience for

464
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: us as well. Well good, I'm happy and I hope

465
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: that those who have looked at the book. I've had

466
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: some good comments on the book obviously, And before we

467
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: get into that, let me just mentioned Tim Back's moment.

468
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a warrior and a hero from our

469
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: part of the world who has had this remarkable life

470
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 1: going through the military and the s A S, this fishing,

471
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,920
Speaker 1: New Services and then the Salute Scouts, a unique regiment

472
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: in our world. And Tim has written a couple of

473
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 1: good books, I'm sure you know, and he's, uh, he's

474
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: a fine man. So's he did give me a kind

475
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: sort of review on the book, and appreciate that. Jim,

476
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: thank you. You know, we're definitely gonna have to get

477
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: Tim back on the show at some point because I

478
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: read his first book, but I have yet to read

479
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: his second book. Um, so I'm gonna have to give

480
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: that a read. But with that, I'm I'm still in

481
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,479
Speaker 1: the process of reading your book and I'm really enjoying

482
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: it so far. And of course this is a memoir,

483
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: so I mean, I guess the right place to start

484
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: is to ask you if you could talk a little

485
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: bit about, you know, your upbringing in Rhodesia, and it

486
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 1: sounds almost like a like a paradise, you know, where

487
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: you grew up in that time period. Yeah, I think

488
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 1: it was. I think I started by saying that I

489
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: didn't appreciate what an idyllic lifestyle we had in those days.

490
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: I was a young a young boy growing up in

491
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: Southern Africa. We were we were well governed, sensible government.

492
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: The country was well run, which was a net exporter

493
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: of goods, especially agricultural products and minerals. We had plenty

494
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: of all that stuff. So the schools were based on

495
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: the British system and the discipline was very strict. I mean,

496
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: it was not unusual to get kane for not doing

497
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,239
Speaker 1: But I have no emotional scarring. That's the funny thing.

498
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 1: All these people say, you know, spare the rod, spoil

499
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: the child. It's probably quite right. So, but but they're

500
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: growing up was was good. My father had a farm

501
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:34,880
Speaker 1: up in the mountains and we used to spend holidays

502
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: up there, and my father taught me to shoot and

503
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: fish early on in life. I mean, I think I'm

504
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: mentioned in the book. I had a rifle and a

505
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 1: shotgun about my bed every night when I was ten

506
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 1: years old, and that was just to to shoot full

507
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: apart and for protection in case there was any There

508
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: were some nasty animals around there. No lanes or elephants left,

509
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: but there were leopards and wild boar and various things

510
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: like that, so you have to be careful. And it

511
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: was fun, it was exciting. It's just incredible for us

512
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: to think about growing up in America and how different

513
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: it was for you know, people like yourself. And I

514
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 1: think Tim Bax was talking about growing up. I can't recall.

515
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: I think it was Tanzania maybe where he grew up

516
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: as a young boy. And here's these stories about wild

517
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: animals coming right up to the house and having to

518
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: fire off your rifle to scare them away. Yeah, yeah,

519
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: I think too most Tanzania, right, And I think he

520
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: also spent a bit of time in Kingday, but I

521
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: think his early days for Tanzania. And yeah, that is

522
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: a great book. I enjoyed that book so much, the thesis.

523
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I've read it twice and each time I've

524
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: enjoyed it immensely. You also talk about your your grandfather Um,

525
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: who lived the ripe old age of ninety nine, and

526
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: he was really a part of the history of South

527
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: Africa and Rhodesia, wasn't he. He certainly was. You know,

528
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: he came up to Rhodesia seven Redsias and then or

529
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: became certain Redsia with the Pioneer Column. And he was

530
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: a remarkable man. He fought in the Zulu Wars, survived

531
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: that dreadful massacre at is San Juana where the regiment

532
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: was wiped out, and the only reason he was spared

533
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 1: as he was out on patrol with Lord Chelmsford. And

534
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: then he managed to get away to Rokes Gift, that's

535
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: a famous name in South African history, and survived the

536
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: night there and then continued. So he was. He was

537
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: an interesting man. And at ninety seven years old, he

538
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: used to tend the Seventh Acre Garden all on his own,

539
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: the only reason he died at was because he fell

540
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: and broke his hip, and of course in those days,

541
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: they didn't know what to do about that. And when

542
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: he realized he was going to be bid written, he

543
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 1: just kind of gave up. It's amazing. And do you

544
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit then about how you

545
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: came into the military service? Sure I was. I'd actually

546
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: gone down to college in South Africa and it wasn't

547
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: doing very well there. Didn't get on well with my professor,

548
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: and towards the end of the year just decided I'm

549
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: going to jump on a motor bike and go home

550
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: and figure out what were doing. My parents were very good.

551
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: They didn't land base me or give me a hard time.

552
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: They just said, we'll figure out what do you want

553
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: to do. So I took some part time work at

554
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: the archives and the source of advertisements for flying in

555
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: the Air Force and decided that I'd give it a go,

556
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: and long story made short, ended up being given a

557
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: letter of offer and joining there force that in the

558
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two when I was nineteen years old, and

559
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: so went off and did all this flying, which was

560
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: which was fun. It was fun and until people were

561
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: shooting back, what what air frames were you trained on.

562
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: The early training we did on the aircraft called the

563
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: Personal Province, which was a big nine cylinder radio airplane.

564
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: To see there a difficult airplane to fly, required a

565
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: lot of rather it was a tail dragons and landing

566
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 1: it was picky, particularly in crosswinds. But if you could

567
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: fly the Promise and graduate through what was our basic

568
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: flying school, you could probably fly most most airplanes. And

569
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: then on the advanced flying we gone to the Vampire object.

570
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: There was a twin seater for advanced flank, and then

571
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: when we were doing weapons training there was a single

572
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: seater as well, the FBN, and they were they were

573
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: good airframes, solid old of course. But and then the

574
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: other airplanes that were operational was the Hunter. I think

575
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 1: you've probably heard of the Hawker Hunter, famous British fighter

576
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: in the mold of the Saber. And then we had

577
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: helicopters and transport and sound like that. But we were

578
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: very small air force. I mean we were probably just

579
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: over a hundred airplanes and eight squadrons, so it was

580
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: it was we called it a pocket air force. There

581
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 1: was a potent little air force that it saved a

582
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: lot of the countries problems during the war, but it

583
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 1: wasn't enough to save the country from extinction, as I learned.

584
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: And in those early years when you were learning the fly, um,

585
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: it was still a peacetime army, you know, hostilities hadn't

586
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: ramped up. Do you want to talk a little bit

587
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: about that period of time before the war really started

588
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: in earnest Yeah, though it wasn't really very long before

589
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: the war started. And you know, I graduated with wings

590
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three, and in nineteen sixty five we

591
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: were already getting reports of incursions into the country from

592
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: the north, so we would fly Rakis in the promised

593
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: as well. Actually you could do four hours endurance and

594
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: get half of the border done, you know, flying and

595
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: checking what's going on. And the war didn't ramp up

596
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: really until the early seventies. And then of course the

597
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: terrorist forces were being supplied and trained by Russia and

598
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: China and more and more of their numbers. You know,

599
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: kids were being kidnapped in the villages and carried across

600
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: the border and forced into training. Now maybe some of

601
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: them went willingly, but a lot of them did not. Anyway,

602
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: long story made short, the war started ramping up but

603
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: in terms of the apparent we were up against and

604
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: the numbers we were up against. Uh. For people who

605
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: maybe are not familiar, do you want to describe the

606
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: Rhodesian Bush War as we know it today and what

607
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: that conflict was about and why it came about. I'm

608
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: sure a lot of Americans are probably just hearing about

609
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: this for the first time. Yeah, it's it's a little complex,

610
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,959
Speaker 1: but I'll try and keep it brief and simple. Rhodesia

611
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: it was part of the British colonies in Africa, and

612
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: some of the other colonies were granted their independence on

613
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: the basis of majority rule, but Southern Redsia was not,

614
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: and so Southern Redisia or Rhodesia proclaimed it's independence the

615
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: same way that you guys did in seventeen seventy six.

616
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: You managed to take it stick and we couldn't. So,

617
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, Britain wind running off the United Nations and

618
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: bleating and getting everything lined up against us with sanctions.

619
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: So we ended up in this war fighting against extreme

620
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: black elements. There were black elements. A lot of people

621
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: confused Redisia with South Africa. We did not have an

622
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: Apartheixis government. We had a multi racial society. There was

623
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: a qualified franchise. You had to earn tax amount of

624
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: dollars or own land or pay taxes or whatever it was.

625
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,479
Speaker 1: I have a certain level education, so it was not

626
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: one man one boat in Britain was pushing for this.

627
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: Did nothing to help us, and eventually the world descended

628
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: on us and most of the world sponsored the so

629
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: called freedom fighters. And I didn't consider them freedom fighters.

630
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 1: I don't consider anyone who murders farmers and their families

631
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: in their beds and now to freedom fader, I consider

632
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: them a cowardly terrorist. Well, there are communist forces, yes,

633
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: they were backed by Russia in the north and by

634
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: China in the east Mozambiak, but out of Zambi in

635
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: the north, and they were they were pretty well supplied.

636
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: I mean they had decent weaponry and that dropped better

637
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: and better as time went on. They ended up with

638
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: them streller you know, the Sam seven missile ground to

639
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: a low level stuff. So we lost some airplanes and

640
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: the war became harder and harder. But the biggest thing

641
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: that hurt us was that we had no oil. We

642
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: had no natural oil in the country, so that's gore.

643
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: Was there any country that agreed to supplans with oil.

644
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: But then the pressure was put on South Africa of

645
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,239
Speaker 1: our the United Nations and Dr Kissinger and other people

646
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 1: who seemed to spend five minutes in Africa, and I

647
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 1: think there were instant experts on Africa. So last Thory

648
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: made short sat down at a political settlement conference in

649
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: London called the Lancaster House Agreement signed with the extreme

650
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: elements of the Zebra, the armed forces from the North

651
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: and Zander the armed forces from the East, and basically

652
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: it was on on a ceasefire basis while there was

653
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: a so called election. So called election, I say it

654
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: like that because there was a lot of intimidation. It's

655
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: very easy to intimidate people who are out in the

656
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: tribe lands and trust lands. And to the people's noses

657
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: were cut off, four ears were cut off, four tongues

658
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 1: were pulled out if they didn't support the the extremus.

659
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: So end of the day, the U gentleman by the

660
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 1: name of Robert mcgaby was elected Prime Minister. And actually

661
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: my first dealings with him were fine. He was a gentleman,

662
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: He was courteous, he asked good questions, he listened. You

663
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: always thank me for his briefings, and it took some

664
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 1: years before he started becoming a despot, and I don't

665
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: know what triggered that. Before we before we get to

666
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,399
Speaker 1: the transition into Zimbabwe, I was wondering if you could

667
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about your career in

668
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: the Rhodesian Air Force and described some of the operations

669
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 1: or missions that are most memorable to you. Um, just

670
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: before we skipped too far ahead into the future, okay.

671
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: I was on seven Scotland, which was the helicopter squad

672
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: and supporting ground forces in the late sixties early seventies

673
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: when they were operations going on, and normally to be

674
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: the question of us having a couple of helicopters deployed

675
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: to the front line where are ground forces were operating.

676
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: Actually our ground forces were also we had some of

677
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: the most some of the finest fighting soldiers that I have.

678
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: Certainly they come across the r ALI, the s a S,

679
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: the Solution Scouts, so it was always a privilege to

680
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: operate with them. And it was normally tracking and finding

681
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: terrorist groups who were in the country, and then only

682
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: later on did we get into going external and attacking

683
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: the big camps, and that was where people like the

684
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Backs and Tonos vessels and those guys from the SAS

685
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: and Graham Wilson and a couple of other seroes rarely shod,

686
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:32,240
Speaker 1: so developed quicker than we were expecting. I guess seven Spot,

687
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: and I did some time on then too Spot, in

688
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: which the vampires in close support with heavier weaponry of

689
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: our troops. If we were going to do an attack

690
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: on a large camp, we normally sent in Canberras to

691
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: do some bombing, and of course our front line of

692
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: owned troops would be pretty close by, so we had

693
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: to be pretty careful. And then after we put in

694
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: an airstrip, our ground forces were going and just kind

695
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: of tidy up, you know. And I guess in some ways,

696
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: I really don't know, but I imagined it was. Some

697
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: of the stuff was almost like our American forces had

698
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: to fight him get Nam. If I understand correctly, you're

699
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,879
Speaker 1: saying that you made the transition from flying fixed wing

700
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 1: to rotary wing later in the war. Yeah, you know,

701
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: because we were smaller outfit, it was kind of fun.

702
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: We only had eight squadrons, and I think I operated

703
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: on four different squadrons, and one of them was person

704
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: Two of them were jet and one was rotary wing,

705
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, so it was it was always interesting. What

706
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: was that like trying to inserting troops, you know by

707
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 1: rotary wing in the Bush War. I mean it's from

708
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: some of the accounts I've read from you know, the

709
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: R L I or s A S. It sounds like

710
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: it was pretty hairy. Yeah, and I think it got area.

711
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: You know, in my day, they were small groups we

712
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: were operating against, and of course they were shooting at Tew,

713
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: but they were shooting the primitive weaponry. Later on, when

714
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 1: they had more sophisticated weaponry and there were more of them,

715
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: it became area and area, and they asked the guard

716
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: for our troops whould be going into these hot zones,

717
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: and you know, we would get in and get out

718
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: and then stand by to extracting if need but you

719
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: or to expect sadly our wounded or even now did

720
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: it was? It was? It was a rough time, that's

721
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:09,919
Speaker 1: but the differences that we were fighting for our own

722
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: country in our hearts were solidly in it, you know.

723
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: And please correct my pronunciation if I'm wrong, But you

724
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 1: were flying the Alouette three, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah,

725
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: the elevate three, and that was a fine and helicopter.

726
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: We could carry four or five troops. We eventually got

727
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 1: drowned to mounting a twenty Middle Tan and on it

728
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: and twin Brownings, So it was pretty potent. You could

729
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: be dropping off some troops and playing down some pretty

730
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: intense ground fire because it was a very effective close

731
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: supporting machine. Did you participate in fire force operations with

732
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: the r L I, Yes, yeah, we were just starting

733
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:51,560
Speaker 1: the fire force concept while I was on that squadron.

734
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: It was very effective and it became a very slip operation.

735
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: When I was running the Eastern operational area. The fire

736
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: force ship was you had you had fire forces based

737
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: on all the major airfield and the fire force was

738
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: normally four for trooping helicopters or free trooping helicopters and

739
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: a gunship or even four creeping helicopters and a gunship,

740
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: and you're called the whole time, and you were based

741
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: with the r ALLI at a camp and you could

742
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: get airborne in ten or fifteen minutes to respond to

743
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: a citing or if the big ops were planned, you

744
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: were called in from the planning and then you'd congregate

745
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: somewhere with with all the helicopters and all the ground

746
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: forces in veterum, we started going external. For the people

747
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: who don't quite know, you know, about the war, I

748
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 1: just point out that fire force operations are still seen

749
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 1: as perhaps a high water watermark for maneuver warfare light

750
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: infantry warfare in the way that it combined both air

751
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: and ground attacks. Yeah. I think what happened because again

752
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: we were such a small outfit and you know, we

753
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: got to no army counterparts very well, we were we

754
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 1: were camped together, we together um, and it wouldn't be

755
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: unusual to go out on an operation and to find

756
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: if you knew all the army commanders in the same operation,

757
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: you knew a lot of the troops. You know. It was.

758
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: It was a very close teamwork and it worked except

759
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 1: you well, because of that, because of the camaraderie and rapport,

760
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: since you all knew each other so well. Yeah, exactly,

761
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 1: And you know that was tough when you lost your buddies.

762
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 1: But we got on with it again. There was no

763
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,439
Speaker 1: time to waste. We just did the best we could

764
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: and we get into you know, the final years of

765
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: the war, and you know, sadly everything that we know

766
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: happened now Um, do you want to describe those you know,

767
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: those winding down years and the transition into what we

768
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:52,439
Speaker 1: now call Zimbabwe. Yeah, I would say the winding down

769
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: was pretty abrupt, quite honestly, because we were mounting heavy

770
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: operations externally in late seventy nine, even while the leg

771
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: the House talks were going on to set up the

772
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: so called election, and then all of a sudden, the

773
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: next House agreement came out and British monitoring forces came

774
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: into the country to monitor the election, monitor the ceasefire,

775
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: and then I would say, in a period of four months,

776
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: it was all over. It was as quick as that.

777
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: So winding down was was pretty rapid. Actually, I understand

778
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: you were an airman, of course, but what what was

779
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: your feelings and your emotions and political thoughts? I suppose

780
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: at this time, well, you know, we were in a

781
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: political force, which means that we support of the government

782
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 1: of the day and we were a responsible, sustainable government

783
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: under under the Redision government under Ian Smith, and the

784
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 1: country worked h there was were we perfect, not by

785
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 1: any manner of means, but we were on a path

786
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: that would guarantee wider representation by the majority, and that

787
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: was obviously not fast enough for Britain, but certainly not

788
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: fast enough for the extreme elements of the Zander and

789
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: Zebra political crowd. So it's I mean, there was there

790
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: was a lot of concern about handing the country over

791
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: to majority rule, and it seemed for a year or

792
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 1: two it would probably be okay, and then it started

793
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 1: into this rapid decline. I don't if you followed what

794
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: happened to the currency inflation in Zimbabwe became a quadrillion percent.

795
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's sixteen zeros if I'm thinking rightly, as

796
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 1: they just kept renting currency. Yeah, so you know that

797
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: the country descended into ruined Farmers were confiscated, farmers were murdered,

798
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: ands on. So the history of that government has been

799
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 1: chalk and cheese compared to the responsible government. The previous

800
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: government with the country worked politically. It wasn't perfect, but

801
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: it was on a good part. So I'm afraid now,

802
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: I don't know how much you've studied a Zimbabwe, but

803
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: the place is kind of a mess. There are very

804
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: few farms, viable farms left. I don't know what happens

805
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: to the mineral of China is in there in spades, uh,

806
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 1: And I don't know that Russia is there that much,

807
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: but China is very active throughout Southern Africa. What was

808
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: it like for you personally making that transition from the

809
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: Rhodesian Air Force to the Zimbabwe Air Force. Yeah, it

810
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: was difficult, to be honest, because you know, I was

811
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: born in the country and my wife and I had

812
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: these discussions, and I have a lot of good friends

813
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,240
Speaker 1: who left at the time and said we're not staying here.

814
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: And I decided, well, you can't fix something from a far.

815
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: If you're going to try and fix something I have

816
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: a positive influence, you'd better stay and get on with

817
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: it and put up with the with the rubbition trying

818
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: try and keep the air Force viable. Well, I wasn't

819
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: able to do that, as you know, because shortly thereafter

820
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: I was arrested and falsely charged with all these treason

821
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: at acts and own into jail and then deported. So

822
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: I didn't get much of an opportunity. But the time

823
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 1: when I was chief of staff, it was difficult. We

824
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: were trying to integrate the Zebra and z and the

825
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: forces with what was left of our redesion forces. Most

826
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: of our army guys and special forces left, and I

827
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: think That was probably understandable because no one was sure

828
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: if there was going to be an even indictiveness on

829
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 1: the part of the new government. As it turns out

830
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: there wasn't. But our our adeesion security forces were desimated,

831
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: and the security forces were taken over really by by

832
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 1: Zandler mostly and Zebra, and of course they swore allegiance

833
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: to a political party, not not to the government of

834
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: the day. Could you talk to them about what you

835
00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: had mentioned about how you were arrested on false charges

836
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: and it sounds like you were essentially a political prisoner. Yeah.

837
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: While I was actually on vacation up in the mountainous

838
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 1: district and doing some fishing, and I got a phone

839
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: call from Directive Operations. He said, I can't talk over

840
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: the phone, but maybe you should come back here. We've

841
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: had a very nicety incident yet. So I went back

842
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: into town and met them and what had happened as

843
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: a bunch of saboteurs, small bunch had got into one

844
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: of our main air force blaces done in Guillo, down

845
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: in the sort of central part of the country at

846
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: Thorn Hill, blown up about ten of our of our

847
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: really valuable airplanes, hunters and hawks and disappeared into the

848
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: night and the aircraft were destroyed. The hangars were badly damaged.

849
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: Who do you think the saboteurs were? But who do

850
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: you think the committed those acts of sabotage and all actuality?

851
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: You know, that's the million dollar question. I have my

852
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 1: own theory. Um, there's no one has ever come forward.

853
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: There's been no corroborated proof who it did. But there's

854
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: a lot of evidence suggesting it was reggy groups out

855
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: of South Africa who had previous connections to Rhodesia. Because

856
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: all the Solution scouts and says a lot of them

857
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: were absorbed into I believe it was six Wrekie in

858
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: South Africa. Yeah, I think a lot of the guys

859
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: that have done there, I'd be fairly surprised if any

860
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: of them decided to go on a mission like that.

861
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 1: But who knows. You know, there were people who who

862
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: were unhappy with the way things have gone. Um. I

863
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: denied that to myself for a long time because I said,

864
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, I've been on staff course in South Africa,

865
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: which is of course that if you graduate from it,

866
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: it equips you for for promotion to general rank. You

867
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: have to go through that if you're ever going to

868
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: get to general rank. And I knew a lot of

869
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: the guys who were in senior positions in the South

870
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: African forces. Then I knew also that during our training

871
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: it was emphasized that we needed stability in the country.

872
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: So I couldn't imagine that any of the generals that

873
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: I knew have been through all this training would promote

874
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: a crazy operation like that to create instability on your

875
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: on your neighboring country. I mean, that makes no sense

876
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: to me, and it never has. So I don't know

877
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 1: how that operation was authorized. When we were operating externally,

878
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: we had to get authorization from cabinet, and I imagine

879
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,919
Speaker 1: the South Africans have the same requirements that they would

880
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,799
Speaker 1: had to have have an externalkloration. I touched on it

881
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: in the book, but I really can't corroborate it, but

882
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence to support my point of view. Interesting. Okay,

883
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,440
Speaker 1: so you were called into work and uh and what

884
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: happened from there? Well, there were these three black See

885
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: central intelligence officers they were calling those days, and they

886
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: said they wanted to go home and look at stuff

887
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: for me, And I said, I sure, you can come

888
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: home what is it they want? Is the stuff I

889
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:39,800
Speaker 1: can help you find? And they sort of steered and giggled,

890
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,279
Speaker 1: and so we were at home for a couple of

891
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: hours and they went through the house and through the

892
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 1: gardens on and then they said, okay, we wanted to

893
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: come down to CEO headquarters with some further questions. I

894
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 1: said the other Luckily, as I was being taken away,

895
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: my wife arrived back from work and she said, what

896
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: are you going? And I said, I'm just getting downe

897
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: to the questioning. I'll be back in a little while.

898
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: And of course I did show what they've been doing

899
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: these guys, as they've been arresting lower level officers and

900
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: engineers and torturing them into making false accusations and incriminating others.

901
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: You know, that's the typical pattern. I believe it the

902
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: sort of thing. And by the time they got to me,

903
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,720
Speaker 1: they decided that there's been enough torture of these guys

904
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: to make them write stuff about me. And so I

905
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: was taken away, moved around the country at nighttime for

906
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: thirteen days so nobody could find us. My wife cleverly

907
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 1: got lawyers the next day. She said, you know, I've

908
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: seen this go on with too many others and I'm

909
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: not going to have us heaven to my husband. But

910
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: they couldn't find me. They've written. They tortured more of

911
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: my fellow officers during those thirteen days to make more

912
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: incriminating statements. Um and then the same thing happened to me,

913
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,440
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, I can I can hang on

914
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: for a while, sore. But then at some stage of

915
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: the torture they introduced my family. I forget what Bruce

916
00:48:58,120 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: are is something about what we know where your family live,

917
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: students on. I thought, okay, I'll write these statements and

918
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: I hope you can get to a court and maybe

919
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: get us all out in the open. One day, I

920
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: wasn't at all confident that was going to happen, and

921
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: I smuggled a letter up to my lawyers when I

922
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: was in jail, saying to my wife to leave the

923
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: country undone for take the kids, go and start a

924
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: new lafe, because they very cleverly set us up in

925
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 1: this thing. So we were in jail for thirteen months,

926
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: and I must say that jails were okay. They didn't

927
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: torture us or give us a hard time. The only

928
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: people who gave us a hard time with the so

929
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: called secret police, the central intelligence people, and they did

930
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: give us a hard time anyway, we had this trial.

931
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: Is there any way I'm sorry, Is there any way

932
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: you can expand on that? Though? What do you mean

933
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: exactly by a hard time? Because you know, I know

934
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,240
Speaker 1: in the book we talked about like some real torture

935
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: that goes on. Yeah, Look, we were badly treated and

936
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: some of the youngsters, the younger guys and I were

937
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: physically assaulted as well as being tortured. I mean, you know,

938
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 1: and it goes without saying that there was no food

939
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: to speak of. There was a little bit of water,

940
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 1: so I mean after third I think I lost twenty

941
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 1: three pounds in the thirteen days when I was weighed

942
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 1: in the prison. And you know, when I saw my

943
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: fellow officers too, they all like looked like spilitans. I

944
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: can laugh about it now, it wasn't funny at the time,

945
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 1: I can tell it. And it may be badly beaten

946
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: up as well, not just electric torture. I don't know

947
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 1: whether these moons decided because of my rank, that I

948
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 1: didn't need to be beaten up, but they couldn't stop

949
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 1: them torturing me. So um, yeah. Anyway, I don't want

950
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: to jump ahead too far. But up the trial, they'd

951
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: locked up our lawyers because they said, if you support

952
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: Slatter and his fellow criminals, you must be criminals as well.

953
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 1: Kangaroo court. Yeah, and anyway they were. They were finally

954
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: released and our lawyers, very cleverly, our local lawyers, had said,

955
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 1: we're going to go public with this. We're gonna get

956
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 1: public on the torch and so, because that's the only

957
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: way you'll ever get a fair trial. And they did.

958
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 1: And that was when they were locked up and then released,

959
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: and my wife managed to get this good lawyer from overseas.

960
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: He was a QC of Queen's Council. He actually prosecuted

961
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: successfully the Yorkshire ripper don if you've ever heard of that.

962
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: So he came out, Harry Ardnold. There was a nine

963
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 1: week trial. He was he was masterful because he remembered

964
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 1: every name, every time, every place in the strange country

965
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: while these things were going on, and he caught the

966
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 1: secret police and the Central Intelligence Office offers lying, oh sapiently,

967
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: and the judge was just writing notes. He was he

968
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: was the senior black judge in the country. A very

969
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: good man. By the name of Justice, Chief Justice. He

970
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: knocked dumba Chenna. I will never forget his name. And

971
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 1: he was an absolute gentleman, trained very well overseas, and

972
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: long story made short. After the night week trial, he

973
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 1: had five weeks to review and then he acquitted all

974
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: of us. He said, he's made innocent and the police

975
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: have lied and you're free to go. Well, the governmentors

976
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 1: promptly locked us up again because the Minister of Home

977
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 1: Affairs or whatever said the courts don't rule the country.

978
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: We rule the country and be locking you up again.

979
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: So that was when some political pressure started to bear

980
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: from the government, both from the US thankfully, very good

981
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,919
Speaker 1: man by the name of Senator Tom Eagleton who took

982
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: this on as a cause. Even Britain started to feel

983
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: some guilt about this and put pressure on and long

984
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: story made short, two of us were released. We said

985
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: we weren't going to go until everybody was released, but

986
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: that drew so much anger and so much, so much

987
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: so many other threats that we decided, okay, we all talked,

988
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: you guys go first and then we'll get the others out,

989
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: which is actually what happened. It took about four months,

990
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 1: but eventually we've got everybody released. Everybody was deported. Uh,

991
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: and so we all sort of life in different countries

992
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: and here I am in America and decided to be

993
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: in American. America has been very kind, very good to us.

994
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,480
Speaker 1: I hope I've tried to what I've had, tried to

995
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: repay what the America has done for me. And I

996
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 1: couldn't be more appreciative. Safe place for my family and

997
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 1: eat and an opportunity for my grandchildren. Well, we're glad

998
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: that you decided to make your home here. And uh,

999
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: could you talk to us then about making that transition

1000
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: from you know, from you spent your your whole life

1001
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 1: in Southern Africa and Zimbabwe. How did you make that

1002
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 1: transition to the United States. What did life have in

1003
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:28,800
Speaker 1: store for you from there? Um? I was very fortunate

1004
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: to be helped a lot by Senator Eagles. We were

1005
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,879
Speaker 1: put on an airplane to England initially, and I lived

1006
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: there for four months with friends, but we had no

1007
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 1: money or anything because the government had confiscated everything about.

1008
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 1: My wife had had a bad accident and she could

1009
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: only join me after about six weeks, But eventually she

1010
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: did and I was invited to come to American have

1011
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: some interviews which I did with generally Elegatric and Martin

1012
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,919
Speaker 1: Marietta and Bowing and people like that, and all facilitated

1013
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: by this wonderful Senator Tom Eagleton. He was he was

1014
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: a Democrat and the naicest guy. And I said, in Tom, God,

1015
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 1: what have you as a Democrat taken on this cause

1016
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: of white man in Africa? And he said, simply, Hugh,

1017
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do. You were treated badly

1018
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: and I want to help fix it. So after after

1019
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 1: several months, I got a job offer, one from one

1020
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: from McDonnell Douglas, which was canceled because of a major strike,

1021
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: and then one from General Electric, and we moved to

1022
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 1: Cincinnati too to start our new life with General Electric.

1023
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: And General Electric has been a fine company for me.

1024
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: I've had wonderful bosses. My first class was great. He

1025
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: took me into his staff meeting and said, I want

1026
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: to be able to meet you. He talks funny, but

1027
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: he's okay. Here's there's a wonderful guy. And he he

1028
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: was doning to work at six in the morning and

1029
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: start before his meetings helping me the stuff, and then

1030
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: he'd stay until eight or nine at night. So he

1031
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 1: felt that I could learn the ways of American business,

1032
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: and I owe him a lot. You were still in aviation,

1033
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 1: you know, on the on the private sector side, right,

1034
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,360
Speaker 1: I was actually supporting the military side. For the first

1035
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,280
Speaker 1: six years. I was a group called Integrated Logistics Support,

1036
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 1: which looked after things like ts stands and spares and

1037
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: tooling for the U. S. Navy in the U. S.

1038
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 1: Air Force, and I thought that was great because I'd

1039
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 1: be working with people, you know, military people, and Somebody's

1040
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: actually one of the more frustrating periods of my life

1041
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: because our procurement system is so convoluted and complex. And

1042
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: you know, I said at one time, we don't need

1043
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 1: an enemy. We we are. It's true. Anyway, after six years,

1044
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: I've got an opportunity to move over to the commercial side,

1045
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 1: which which I took because I didn't want to leave

1046
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: with this our taste in my mouth about military. I'd

1047
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,720
Speaker 1: had such a good military career and I just felt

1048
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: bad that we couldn't help our operators at the sharp end,

1049
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: our engineers and our palates more more than we were.

1050
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: But our procurement system is a mess. I'll tell you,

1051
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: it really is. So then I got into commercial again.

1052
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: I was lucky. I had a wonderful boss took me

1053
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: under his wing, and I found the whole atmosphere more refreshing.

1054
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: You were dealing with people who understood profit and lass

1055
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: and I was trying to learn that how to how

1056
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: to run a business size And moved up to Seattle

1057
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: to join the programs running the programs for Boeing Airplanes

1058
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: and that was that was a great opportunity for a

1059
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: few years, and then back to England to do some

1060
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,280
Speaker 1: I had a responsibility for sales in northern and Western Europe,

1061
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: which finally that's included Aeroflot. Now is what It was

1062
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: ironic that here I am sitting drinking vodka and eating

1063
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: cavia at at a at a dinner with Russians and

1064
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: these were the guys we were fighting just a few years.

1065
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: It was ironic such a us you know, bizarre and

1066
00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 1: surreal trajectory that sometimes life takes you on where you

1067
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: cross paths with enemies and what do you do you

1068
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: even know? How do you how do you reflect on

1069
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: these things now when you look back on them, Well,

1070
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: you know, I learned in the case of Russia that

1071
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: the Russian people are great and I just tend to

1072
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: the conclusion that it's really the politicians who screw things up.

1073
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 1: The people are wonderful, and you know, politicians just don't

1074
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: get it. I'm afraid. So it's probably true for all

1075
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: of the world, but I think it may well be. Yeah,

1076
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: I think it may well be. But anyways, so yeah.

1077
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: I wrote a couple of pages at the back of

1078
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 1: my book, Reflections on Life, and really I tried to

1079
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 1: express my dismay and my disappointment at Southern Africa and

1080
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: what Africa has done to itself. You know, if anyone

1081
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: can show me a responsible government from Cairo to Cape Town,

1082
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:55,240
Speaker 1: I'd like to know where it is. But maybe Botswana,

1083
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: the little country of Botswana has a has a pretty

1084
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: decent responsible but the rest is a mess. And I'm

1085
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 1: sorry to say that Salisca is getting down the same path.

1086
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: Do you see any future or any hope on the

1087
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: African continent? I mean so often the all we see

1088
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: in the news back here in the States is the

1089
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: you know, the dark continent, this di SMaL place where

1090
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 1: everyone is suffering and everyone always will suffer forever. Is

1091
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: there any hope for the future? You know? I wish

1092
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: I could be optimistic about it. I have friends and

1093
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,920
Speaker 1: families still in Southern Africa and it saves But you know,

1094
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 1: the latest idiocy to come out of the government in

1095
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: sulath because that they've now approved emotion in parliament to

1096
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: seize white art owned farms without compensation, which is what

1097
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 1: Zimbabwe did, isn't it. That's exactly what Zimbabwe did, and

1098
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: that was the rapid start of the decline of the country.

1099
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: So if this proceeds, and I hope it doesn't. If

1100
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: it does proceed, that's the ruin of the South African

1101
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: economy and then and from there the ruin of the country.

1102
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: I'm afraid the only way you can turn this round

1103
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 1: is to get a sensible government who will attract investment,

1104
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: get jobs going, because I mean, unemployment is the major

1105
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: problem in Africa in my view. Get the jobs going,

1106
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: get get some international investment, and then maybe you've got

1107
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: to hope of turning it around. You know, had that

1108
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 1: great start under Mandela. You know, he was a statesman

1109
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: who understood all this stuff, but he only was there

1110
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: four years. He was old, and since then they've had

1111
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: more extreme elements takeover and now we're into this latest

1112
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: absurdity of the confuscation without compensation. It's it's the beginning

1113
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 1: of the right. If it proceeds, nothing good can come

1114
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 1: out of that, that's for sure. No, I mean, and

1115
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: it's crazy. When I talk to some of my American

1116
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: friends here, they're like, sure, you're kidding me. That can't happen.

1117
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: That say, well, it's happened before. You know. It's difficult

1118
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 1: for us in America to understand what irresponsible government really is.

1119
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: We've had responsible government for years and years. We may

1120
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,280
Speaker 1: not always agree with everything they do, but we do

1121
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 1: have responsible government, thank god. Yeah. I mean, we're just

1122
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: so isolated and that part of the world. Honestly, Southern Africa,

1123
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: the southern tip of Africa is so isolated from the

1124
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: rest of the world in general. I mean, were very

1125
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: few of us tend to make a trip down there,

1126
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: tend to understand that region as well as you know,

1127
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: people like yourself do well. It's a shame because the

1128
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,439
Speaker 1: resources are endless. I mean, it's a wonderful agricultural place.

1129
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 1: It's a wonderful place for tourism. It still has great

1130
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: wildlife that has great mineral deposits. I mean, it's got

1131
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: huge resources, but they've got to be used properly. As

1132
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: we wrap things up today, I want to thank you

1133
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: again for joining us here. Is there anything else that

1134
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: I failed to cover, Anything that you really want to

1135
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,320
Speaker 1: get out there and talk about. Well, look, I've enjoyed

1136
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: it and thank you for getting some exposure. They're one

1137
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: thing I would mention, and it's in the book. Is

1138
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: I decided when I wrote this that any prophets that

1139
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 1: I make are going to go do veterans organizations, and

1140
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: I selected one here locally in the in my part

1141
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: of the world, up in the Northwest here and one

1142
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,280
Speaker 1: in Southern Africa, and we're you know, anything that we

1143
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 1: can do to promote sales. So long as people understand

1144
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: I don't make opinion out of this. I pay taxes

1145
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: and make a penny. It all goes to our veterans,

1146
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 1: and I'm proud to be able to do something like that,

1147
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: So thank you for this opportunity. Can I mention one

1148
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: thing on my website when you order in the US,

1149
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 1: that's www dot Hugh Slatter dot com. And it's better

1150
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: just to go straight onto the internet if you use

1151
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: a search engine, that will bring up all sorts of

1152
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: other stuff about the trial, about what we went on.

1153
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 1: And it's hard to find the book. So if you're

1154
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 1: interest in the book, just go spread onto the world

1155
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: Wide Web and plugging my my name dot com and

1156
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: it'll it will give you some background on the book

1157
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 1: and how to buy it. Yeah, and I say it's

1158
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,680
Speaker 1: available signed or unsigned, so check it out. That's the

1159
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: exclusive place to get it. And once again, the book

1160
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: is Pilot Prisoner Patriot, One man's triumph oward torture and tragedy.

1161
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: And I mean this has been awesome. It's not every

1162
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: day that you get to speak to a guy who

1163
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: who sat down with Robert mcgaviy, for example, and endured

1164
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 1: what you have. Yeah, Ian and Jack, thank you for

1165
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: the opportunity. You appreciate it, and I hope we can

1166
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 1: continue to help our vets this right. Yeah, thank you again.

1167
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I really hope people will go and

1168
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 1: take a look at this book. Um. As I said

1169
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: in the beginning, this is just a very unique experience,

1170
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: and this is a very unique book of course because

1171
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,440
Speaker 1: the author has had a very interesting, adventure filled life.

1172
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 1: And I hope people will go and take a look

1173
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: at it. Thank you, and I appreciate it, and thank

1174
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: you America. Thanks, appreciate it. You you have a good day, guys,

1175
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: Talk to you soon. Great having Hugh Sladder on really

1176
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: unique guest from a unique perspective, And I think that's

1177
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 1: what we do is uh, you know, it's soft Wrap Radio,

1178
01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: but we don't just have on soft veterans. We have

1179
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: veterans from all over the GLO. This is what makes

1180
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: the show is that we go and find these interesting

1181
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 1: folks out there that not too many people have heard of. Uh,

1182
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: you know Tim Beck's Hugh Sladder, Um. We had Dr

1183
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: Lenny Wong on who his research is. Actually he saw

1184
01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: in the news the other day that it's having an

1185
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,520
Speaker 1: impact on the military. Um that they're cutting back on

1186
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: mandatory training that our troops have to go through so

1187
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: they can focus on their actual combat tasks. I would

1188
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: think that's a good thing. So Lenny's research is having

1189
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 1: a positive impact. You know. We had we had Pat

1190
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: McNamara on Mike Finding, Mike Finding and just these I mean,

1191
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:29,919
Speaker 1: that's what makes the show. It's just we have these

1192
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: really interesting guests on yeah efor in depth interviews. Really

1193
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: because if you know, I don't think Hugh Slider is

1194
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 1: doing any news appearances, but if he does. It'll be

1195
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 1: a two minute thing, you know, small hit, and we

1196
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 1: got to have a bond for an extended period of time.

1197
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: Wrapping things up here, I got a really interesting email

1198
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: sent to soft repped out radio at softwarep dot com

1199
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 1: and we hope you keep those keep sending those in

1200
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: um Greetings gents. John East here from Gainesville, Florida. Huge

1201
01:03:58,360 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 1: fan of the site and long time listener. I appreciate

1202
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: your time reading this and will be as brief as possible.

1203
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 1: I work as a paramedic for our local fire rescue service,

1204
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,120
Speaker 1: our local county Fire Rescue Service, and as a flight

1205
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 1: paramedic for Shan's Got Shan's Care Flight Program Helicopter e

1206
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:18,919
Speaker 1: m S. The most recent podcast with George Hand made

1207
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: me realize how inadequate the awareness of human trafficking is

1208
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 1: in my fields. Moreover, it paid me to think that

1209
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: over my years working in this field, I almost certainly

1210
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 1: have come across people in this situation that could have

1211
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: been helped. I brought this topic up to our admin.

1212
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: They responded well and are willing to help me find

1213
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: ways to better educate our region on the matter and

1214
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: raise awareness. I'm reaching out to you guys for contact

1215
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: info and George, which you know, forward over to him.

1216
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: Our current resources in education or insufficient. Our county lies

1217
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: between Orlando and Jacksonville, and thus I can only assume

1218
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: that there is at least some degree of human trafficking

1219
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: crossing through our area of operation. My department is on

1220
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,400
Speaker 1: board with helping bread awareness through our region, also through

1221
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 1: the hospital based flight program I work for. I have

1222
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 1: the means to this, UH, disemanate any education and resources

1223
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: throughout the northern half of Florida. With a little assistance,

1224
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: I think we can help some of these victims. Attached

1225
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,560
Speaker 1: to all my contact info and he also sent me credentials.

1226
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: Any help would be greatly appreciated. UM. So I thought

1227
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 1: that was really cool. And then he also sat on

1228
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: here and who knows we could save lives? Keep up

1229
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: the strong work and please get Ritland or draw go

1230
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: back on uh. And then he says you could share

1231
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 1: this on air? So, I mean the last thing I'll say, UH,

1232
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,120
Speaker 1: To be honest, Ritland is very busy working on his

1233
01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: own podcast. UH. You know, I like Mike, but I

1234
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: don't know if he'll be coming on anytime soon. Uh.

1235
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: I I've met Drago before, but he's not someone like

1236
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:49,480
Speaker 1: I have a personal connection with really um and from

1237
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: last that I saw he was kind of like m

1238
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: I A. So either of those guys, I don't think

1239
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 1: we'll have on soon. We do have other great people

1240
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: in the works. But I just thought that was a

1241
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: really cool email. Yeah, I mean that's the goal, right, Yeah,

1242
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: get the word out. More people who know about it,

1243
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: the more likely, you know, maybe they'll be able to

1244
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: help pull somebody out of a bad situation. Yeah. The

1245
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,880
Speaker 1: pictures that Um Georgia post, like, I would never have

1246
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: thought like these tattoos meant these women were being trafficked,

1247
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: and the way that he explains it of like the

1248
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: initials and stuff like that. And then also the stuff

1249
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 1: you said on the show about seeing a picture with

1250
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 1: like stacked up McDonald's cops. It's a telltale sign. These

1251
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: are things that had George Ship not said, I would

1252
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,120
Speaker 1: have never known. Yeah, the crown with the initials on it,

1253
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: the rose, the diamond. Uh. Another one I believe is

1254
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: the cheetah or black leopard spots. I think that's another one, yeah,

1255
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: which is a popular tattoo. Though some of all these

1256
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: are I mean roses, and you know, so you've got

1257
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 1: to be pretty particular about like what you're spotting out. Yeah,

1258
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't hope you're not calling the cops

1259
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:53,919
Speaker 1: every time you see somebody with a rose tattoo. Yeah,

1260
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: every time you see like a stripper with cheetah print.

1261
01:06:57,560 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, great having George on, and we're gonna

1262
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: have him back on soon because we've never had George

1263
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: on to talk about his experience in Delta Force. And

1264
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: after getting Pat mcnamarito open up, I'm looking forward to

1265
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 1: getting him to open up. Yeah. I mean, Georgia has

1266
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 1: some very interesting stories. If you cant I'm talking. Yeah,

1267
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 1: So I'll beyond very soon. Uh yeah. And with that,

1268
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: keep the reviews coming please. UM it helps us in

1269
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:25,440
Speaker 1: our ranking, and that's on Apple podcast. That's really the

1270
01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: place to review it. It's really simple. You just go

1271
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: to the podcast app write your review. We really could

1272
01:07:31,280 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: use those five star reviews. It helps um. And then

1273
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 1: also visit Kuna Dog. That's like the newest thing happening

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01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 1: with Hurricane Media is uh Kuna Dog if you own

1275
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: a dog. That's our new subscription box veteran dog owners

1276
01:07:45,640 --> 01:07:48,600
Speaker 1: helping us out with picking stuff, and it's uh Kuna

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01:07:49,080 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: dot Dog and that's spelled SeeU and a dot dog.

1278
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 1: And next episode is going to be kind of a

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01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: best of compilation presented by Harley Davidson with some great

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01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 1: guest we've had on whether it's Mike Vining, uh, Chris

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01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 1: Tonto Pronto and I have a lot of guys on

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01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,840
Speaker 1: their um unheard stuff from Rob O'Neil, so you'll hear

1283
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: some cold stuff from Rob O'Neil. And also Ivan Castro

1284
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: who lost his eye in combat. That was a really

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01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 1: great one and believe it or not, if you were

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01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: you probably remember kind of an uplifting story and that

1287
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:27,559
Speaker 1: after losing his eye, continues to serve runs Marathon's happened

1288
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: to be there during the Boston Marathon, the infamous Boston Yeah,

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01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:34,759
Speaker 1: it really is and I got to meet him in person.

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01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,080
Speaker 1: Um and yeah, I would love to have him back

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01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:42,519
Speaker 1: on to at some point. Awesome. Cool. Well, thanks again

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01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: to Hugh for coming on. I hope you guys enjoyed

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01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,559
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, to keep checking out of stuff at

1294
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: Soccer Up Radio, Instagram, Twitter and we're out give us review.

1295
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: Cool you've been listening to saf rep Radio. New episodes

1296
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: up every Wednesday and Friday for all of the great

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01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: content from our veteran journalists. Join us and become a

1298
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: team room member today at soft rep dot com. Follow

1299
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:13,960
Speaker 1: the show on Instagram and Twitter at soft Rep Radio,

1300
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: and be sure to also check out the Power of

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01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 1: Thought podcast hosted by Hurricane Group CEO and Navy Seal

1302
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 1: Sniper instructor Brandon Webb.