Speaker 1: I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are
Speaker 1: going to have to start making better content. I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about this for a long time.
Speaker 1: When you program for everyone, you program for no one.
Speaker 1: I think it's a were purpose driven platform. Like we're
Speaker 1: trying to get to substance. How was that you happy
Speaker 1: with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It really is?
Speaker 1: What's up? This is Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Christen.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Atlantia, episode eighteen. Does that make us
Speaker 1: vicial adults? You said we all grows up. We all
Speaker 1: grows up, we grown camp. That doesn't include you, know.
Speaker 1: So We've got a great show talking about audio with
Speaker 1: Andy Bowers, who super meta, super Meta we like, By
Speaker 1: the way, we need to bring back Mamas. We need
Speaker 1: to bring back mamas. We do. Laura's referring to a
Speaker 1: little bit of meta and a little bit of Mama.
Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to that episode, you will laugh
Speaker 1: your ass off. And if you don't, something's wrong with you.
Speaker 1: You're missing a chip. So anyhow, anyhow, we have Andy
Speaker 1: Bowers on the show, chief content officer of Panoply, also
Speaker 1: a good friend. I feel like I always say that,
Speaker 1: but it's true. We have a lot of good friends
Speaker 1: that come in here and talk to us. But someone
Speaker 1: that we created g podcast Theater with how many years ago,
Speaker 1: almost four and I was four years ago excuse like
Speaker 1: industry veteran came up through NPR, was really just waiting
Speaker 1: for the tech element of audio to take off, to
Speaker 1: give everybody access to what he's been seeing all along
Speaker 1: and super interesting to dive into past future present. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and also brands can get involved in podcasting because we're
Speaker 1: really not there yet. We have a lot of friends
Speaker 1: in the industry who are like, how do I get
Speaker 1: into this space? Not for their own show, meaning like
Speaker 1: how do I get my brand into this space and
Speaker 1: maybe for their own show? I don't know, And we
Speaker 1: always tell them like, this is the opportunity to be
Speaker 1: stand out and think about this in a totally different
Speaker 1: way and get into audio before audio starts getting so saturated,
Speaker 1: not just with advertising, but I think with experience. And
Speaker 1: what we're going to see is that the space actually
Speaker 1: starts getting pretty saturated in terms of um ex ovariants
Speaker 1: and content. And one of the things that I'm excited
Speaker 1: about is people bringing audio I R L right in
Speaker 1: real life. So how do people start taking what's the
Speaker 1: crossover the conversations with a microphone and bringing it into
Speaker 1: physical location so people can hear conversations that you know
Speaker 1: normally are reserved for the studio space, but start to
Speaker 1: actually now add the component of uh, you know, dialogue
Speaker 1: with those who listen with physical physical, physical space. Yeah,
Speaker 1: big on that. And there are a lot of and
Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who are There are
Speaker 1: a lot of people who are doing it. But I
Speaker 1: think that the opportunity for brands to get involved and
Speaker 1: like figure out where can they be additive to the
Speaker 1: talent in a physical experience is actually pretty exciting. So
Speaker 1: Andy Bauer's coming on in a few minutes with Laura
Speaker 1: and I. But in the meantime, Laura and I have
Speaker 1: some thoughts what are we talking about today? So today
Speaker 1: I feel like Burton Ernie today. Um, there are a
Speaker 1: couple of things that have been getting on my nerves lately.
Speaker 1: One when is brand content going to go away? What's
Speaker 1: interesting about that is some of the reaction we heard
Speaker 1: from episode seventeen with Vices Ben Deets was to one
Speaker 1: of the points he made, which I think may have
Speaker 1: been one of the single most important points um was
Speaker 1: when he talks about the inspiration for when they created
Speaker 1: the network. They came up in a world where they
Speaker 1: believed on the edges that ads were content and content
Speaker 1: we're ats, and a lot of people reacted to that,
Speaker 1: not in positive or negative. Just in thanks for making
Speaker 1: me think about that differently. And I think to your
Speaker 1: point we heard earlier in one of our earlier shows
Speaker 1: with Keith Grossman from Bloomberg, it's like, it's only advertising
Speaker 1: when it's bad advertising. So there's there's it's only that
Speaker 1: time one. Yeah, there's something perkling. But I also think
Speaker 1: like we're hitting this place where everybody now is coming
Speaker 1: out with some kind of not everybody. I think that
Speaker 1: they were the early folks. Now we're kind of in
Speaker 1: the middle. And then I think we're going to hit
Speaker 1: like probably a big critical volume of brands coming out
Speaker 1: with more kind of original content or co produced content,
Speaker 1: which I'm all for, But I just wonder when do
Speaker 1: we saturate right people's ears, eyes and hearts with branded
Speaker 1: content and people just start really loving brands or an
Speaker 1: experience that they're having with brands and it's no longer
Speaker 1: branded content, and like is branded content, just content can
Speaker 1: get just good content. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: this and I'm seeing and enjoying is brands starting to,
Speaker 1: I guess, fragment their approach to the market. Where you've
Speaker 1: got products and services and what your heart cell is
Speaker 1: on one side the coin and on the other side
Speaker 1: of the coin, it's about your purpose, drive emission. And
Speaker 1: I think we've heard about that over We've heard about
Speaker 1: that over seventeen episodes on this show. You know, put
Speaker 1: your money where your brand promises. And I think what
Speaker 1: HP is doing with keep reinventing. I think what we've
Speaker 1: seen with Glossier do around body Hero love, Body Hero awesome.
Speaker 1: I think what we've seeing, you know, Airbnb start to
Speaker 1: you know, delve into around diversity and inclusion. You know,
Speaker 1: brands are starting to recognize that to fall in love
Speaker 1: with a brand, it doesn't necessarily need to be tethered
Speaker 1: to that product or service that it is that you're selling.
Speaker 1: It's what are those values, what are those you know,
Speaker 1: consciousable things that you can put forward into the market.
Speaker 1: But now it's not good enough to just say it.
Speaker 1: I think there's this level of accountability where we actually
Speaker 1: have to invest in you have to invest in. It
Speaker 1: has to be real. Is this the same conversation we've
Speaker 1: had over the seventeen episodes? No, and yes, But for
Speaker 1: some reason it's been getting on my nerves a lot
Speaker 1: as people I've been talking to or talking about brand
Speaker 1: of content, brand and content, brand of content and that
Speaker 1: they're going out there and they're creating it, and I'm
Speaker 1: all for it, But to your point, when does it
Speaker 1: turn into something that's produced brands? That's right, something that's
Speaker 1: produced um and that sits outside of the brand and
Speaker 1: kind of it's peripheral or it's kind of core to
Speaker 1: the brand. One of the things that's always blown my
Speaker 1: mind is like, don't some of these brands have more
Speaker 1: credibility and pertise and some of these categories than content
Speaker 1: creators do. And with that regard, don't they have more
Speaker 1: of a right than Hollywood UM to talk about sustainability?
Speaker 1: For example? Don't they have a right to talk about
Speaker 1: the future relative to climate change or diversity or for
Speaker 1: the housing market? Goldman Sachs like, I mean, that's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: Like I would actually listen to Goldman Sachs talking about
Speaker 1: right a financial crisis. I would rather listen to Jamie
Speaker 1: Diamond of JP Morgan Chase talk about you know what
Speaker 1: his opinions are on bitcoin, whether I agree with them
Speaker 1: or not. Right, So anyway, that's my rant. You have one,
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that's going to be interesting
Speaker 1: is uh and we're going to get into it with Bowers.
Speaker 1: Is the idea of ad supported versus pay to lists
Speaker 1: and or pay to read or pay to watch. And
Speaker 1: I think, you know, assume you know it's interesting, you know,
Speaker 1: to start thinking about, well, what does mass mean anymore?
Speaker 1: And is it more valuable? And our people going to
Speaker 1: be more willing to pay for content that has an
Speaker 1: expertise in an authority as opposed to something that is
Speaker 1: just meant to entertain. And I think that's more to
Speaker 1: maybe generic too, does that you know when you go
Speaker 1: for that math we say it in the beginning of
Speaker 1: the show. You know, when you're programming for everyone, you're
Speaker 1: programming for no one. It's not a new idea. And
Speaker 1: so do we move from mass and efficiency to context
Speaker 1: and effectiveness? And I think that at the end of
Speaker 1: the day is the world I want to live in
Speaker 1: as a marketer. So me too, preach. We'll be back
Speaker 1: with Andy Bowers after the break. So we're back in
Speaker 1: the studio with a good friend, Andy Bowers, chief content
Speaker 1: officer of panoply Hi Andy and also known to Alex
Speaker 1: and I as our podfather father us. I have to
Speaker 1: say I'm not officially allowed to accept that title. Uh,
Speaker 1: someone else has claimed to it, but you can be ours.
Speaker 1: You've been actually telling us that for like three years
Speaker 1: because the first time we met you, when we went
Speaker 1: and talked to you about the message that we did
Speaker 1: right to the podcast theater, We're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: we're meeting with the pod father. Laura and I were
Speaker 1: like so excited, and then we like just came out
Speaker 1: in the meeting. We're like, you're the pod father and
Speaker 1: you're like, you can't say that, but we were like,
Speaker 1: we're gonna say it anyway. I will not stop you.
Speaker 1: So can we tell people about the origin of how
Speaker 1: the three of us met because it's one of my
Speaker 1: most favorite partnership development process in my career. Yeah, me too. Um,
Speaker 1: we had this idea like, why shouldn't we be telling
Speaker 1: our brand story in an audio space in a fictional format.
Speaker 1: I was kind of obsessed with what was happening with
Speaker 1: Serial Less. I mean, the story was amazing, right, the
Speaker 1: reporting and the journalism and the narrative amazing, all of
Speaker 1: that amazing, Yes, hands down, we all know that. But
Speaker 1: what I was fascinated with was what was happening in
Speaker 1: human behavior, consumer behavior, people listening to kind of this
Speaker 1: new narrative on demand audio. And I called Laura and
Speaker 1: I said, holy shit, this is big and we shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing video. We should be explaining our story and
Speaker 1: bringing people along via an entertainment platform, and I want
Speaker 1: to do it in audio. And she was like, hold on,
Speaker 1: I gotta order my number three at Taco Bell. Literally
Speaker 1: at midnight. At mid night. I was coming home on
Speaker 1: the train and Laura was at Taco Bell and she
Speaker 1: was like, this is right, and we know and we
Speaker 1: know who to take this to. And then we met you.
Speaker 1: We were sitting at Lapan lacot Did in right Pancoated
Speaker 1: in in Midtown and we walked in. It was this
Speaker 1: long table, it was noisy, and it was breakfast, and
Speaker 1: I was sitting next to you and Laura was like
Speaker 1: on the other side with Turk and we started talking
Speaker 1: about this g podcast theater and the message and what
Speaker 1: this could look like and how we wanted a partner
Speaker 1: to come along side us and not do just branded
Speaker 1: content right, but to really truly co produce this production
Speaker 1: like a true original production. This is a twenty. It
Speaker 1: was either yes, it was the beginning tail end. And
Speaker 1: you looked at me and in your very Andy Bower's way,
Speaker 1: like we were just saying out before we were on Mike,
Speaker 1: like the coolest hipster and pr guy in the room like,
Speaker 1: who are you talking about? Yeah, you like the coolest hipster.
Speaker 1: We'll say it again, Okay, we're not talking about you
Speaker 1: can stop raising your hand, um, And you looked at
Speaker 1: me totally calm, and you were like yes, and it
Speaker 1: was you. You were just like absolute yes. And then
Speaker 1: you told me the story about your dad. Yes. Well,
Speaker 1: you had said that you wanted to recreate G. E. Theater,
Speaker 1: the TV show from the fifties with Ronald Reagan and
Speaker 1: turn it into ge Podcast Theater, And I think I
Speaker 1: just blurted out, oh, that's so cool because my dad
Speaker 1: used to write for G. E. Theater. He was a
Speaker 1: screenwriter and TV writer. And uh, I think you liked that.
Speaker 1: It was like we were like, I liked it, but
Speaker 1: it was also like you gave you weren't that calm,
Speaker 1: like I have to say like this, we did get
Speaker 1: maybe a little beat of sweat on your head. You
Speaker 1: were like, yes, yes, and oh, by the way, I
Speaker 1: have a personal connection to this, and I just knew
Speaker 1: it was right. We just knew we were just like
Speaker 1: people done. From my point of view, I go to
Speaker 1: a lot of pitch meetings all the time, and you know,
Speaker 1: the majority of them, sometimes the vast majority of them
Speaker 1: do not amount to anything, and I come away underwhelmed
Speaker 1: by what people have pitched. And Matt said, you know,
Speaker 1: these are my friends from ge. They have this amazing
Speaker 1: idea for something. I think it has to do with drama,
Speaker 1: but it's branded. And I'm like, oh god, what is
Speaker 1: this going to be? And you laid it out for me,
Speaker 1: and I kept in my mind thinking, Okay, where's the
Speaker 1: big problem with this because this can't be what I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: which is this actually sounds really good. It's not only
Speaker 1: a good idea to do a branded scripted series, but
Speaker 1: their actual idea is a good idea. I would listen
Speaker 1: to this show. You know, you laid out the idea
Speaker 1: that there's this message that's been around for since World
Speaker 1: War Two that was received and people have been trying
Speaker 1: to decode it. I think that was kind of the
Speaker 1: German the idea you had, um that was like the
Speaker 1: beginning treatment. Yeah, but it was all there in the
Speaker 1: beginning treatment that the germ of I mean, that's exactly
Speaker 1: what we produced. And so I kept trying to think
Speaker 1: of ways to disqualify and I couldn't, And so I
Speaker 1: actually grew excited in a way that I rarely have.
Speaker 1: I think we got you. We got you excited a
Speaker 1: lot during the process. I mean absolutely, It's only been
Speaker 1: four years since the impetus of this partnership, and I
Speaker 1: think it's interesting and obviously we want to shift the
Speaker 1: conversation we're here approaching podcasting has exploded would probably be
Speaker 1: it underwhelming way of talking about what's happened in the space.
Speaker 1: Can you believe where it's come from having been in
Speaker 1: this space since the days of MPR, or have you
Speaker 1: just been waiting on and saying what's taking some that
Speaker 1: kind of that one. Yes, I started podcasting, and I
Speaker 1: think it was July of two thousand five. I had
Speaker 1: been actually before that waiting for what the digital audio
Speaker 1: spoken word medium would be. It was easy to make
Speaker 1: audio on the internet, but it was not easy to
Speaker 1: distribute it. And when that distribution method came along, I said, ah,
Speaker 1: this is what I've been waiting for. So I just
Speaker 1: I mean, even though it was incredibly cumbersome in those days.
Speaker 1: I mean like that was before the smartphone, So you
Speaker 1: had to download a podcast to your desktop computer and
Speaker 1: then sink it to your iPod, And it was you know,
Speaker 1: for me to think that normal people would go through
Speaker 1: this incredible process to get what you can get from
Speaker 1: the radio was not realistic. But I saw then just
Speaker 1: the power of on demand audio. How when you set
Speaker 1: your own schedule and you listen to what makes you
Speaker 1: happy or interested or entertained on your schedule rather than
Speaker 1: the radio schedule. It was incredibly powerful and addictive, and
Speaker 1: so I knew that this was going to be the
Speaker 1: future of the medium. I thought it would happen a
Speaker 1: lot quicker, especially when the smartphone came along. When the
Speaker 1: iPhone came in two thousands seven, I thought, oh, finally
Speaker 1: we're here. And I kept waiting and waiting. In my
Speaker 1: old colleagues at NPR, We're like, what are you doing podcasting?
Speaker 1: What is this weird thing? That kind of thought I
Speaker 1: was crazy, But then they got into it. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: now the pool is very full. Yeah, the pool is
Speaker 1: very full. So I mean my question is have we
Speaker 1: hit mass with podcasting? You know, from an audience perspective,
Speaker 1: I mean, how many podcasts? So you were on Charlie Rose.
Speaker 1: Let me take a detour. Actually, you were on Charlie
Speaker 1: Rose last week. I think it came out last week.
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, and you were talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of is this this great awakening you with a
Speaker 1: bunch of other guests, Um, great awakening of the you know,
Speaker 1: re rethinking of the golden age of audio, and Um,
Speaker 1: my question is have we really hit mass in audience
Speaker 1: or have we hit mass in volume of content? Right? Well,
Speaker 1: in terms of volume of content four thousand podcasts and iTunes,
Speaker 1: I think that's critical mass, chaotic mass. Yeah. I hope
Speaker 1: that actually clears out a little bit because it's just
Speaker 1: way too confusing to find what you want. In terms
Speaker 1: of audience, I think there's a lot more awareness now
Speaker 1: of podcasting. I think the audience has a long way
Speaker 1: to grow. We're still I don't know, quarter to a
Speaker 1: third of Americans who regularly listen. I think most spoken
Speaker 1: word audio will be listened to on demand in the future.
Speaker 1: So I think we have a long way to go.
Speaker 1: But now it's not a joke. I mean in the
Speaker 1: old days, I would go to a dinner party and
Speaker 1: say what I did, and people be like, podcasting isn't
Speaker 1: that dead? No, No, it's going really well, but they
Speaker 1: you know, it had totally lost its cachet. Well, now
Speaker 1: that's not true. Yeah, now that's not true at all.
Speaker 1: When you talk about you know, we're only a third
Speaker 1: or two thirds of the way there, you know, with
Speaker 1: technology and Alexa and I have talked quite a bit
Speaker 1: about the disappearing interface and the idea that audio will
Speaker 1: be that pervasive through line through everything we do, whether
Speaker 1: that's you know, via your technology in your hand, whether
Speaker 1: that's smart home audio in your home, whether that's in
Speaker 1: your car. So those sort of some kind of ambient assistant, right,
Speaker 1: So those are the things that get us excited and saying, like,
Speaker 1: to your point, like, we haven't even approached the tipping
Speaker 1: point in terms of where there is this critical, massive
Speaker 1: audience that understands the power of this medium and storytelling.
Speaker 1: We talk a lot about you know, brands understanding that
Speaker 1: you know, podcasting is only one part of the audio strategy. So,
Speaker 1: as somebody who's the chief content officer of what I
Speaker 1: would deem an audio network, what are some of the
Speaker 1: things that you see as being utility and audio that
Speaker 1: brands can start thinking about exploring. Well, one thing is,
Speaker 1: we just launched a children's audio service called Penna, which
Speaker 1: is a subscription service, and this is, you know, the
Speaker 1: opposite of ad supported. We decided very affirmatively that we
Speaker 1: did not want to have advertising for children in this network,
Speaker 1: so we made it a paid subscription service with a
Speaker 1: free podcasting component. But people have been saying for a
Speaker 1: long time, when are we going to get to the
Speaker 1: point when people will pay for audio? And it's hard
Speaker 1: with podcasts being out there free for a dozen years now, Um,
Speaker 1: people are not used to it. The advertising model works
Speaker 1: really well. It's far less intrusive than radio. It's more
Speaker 1: interesting the ad so it works on that level. But um,
Speaker 1: for kids audio, we at least really don't want to
Speaker 1: do that advertising. So we're now going to have this
Speaker 1: grand experiment where we're putting a lot of great programming,
Speaker 1: archival and original programming in this app Penna, and people
Speaker 1: are already in just a few weeks they're signing on
Speaker 1: and we're getting a great feedback for it is seven
Speaker 1: month or seventy nine dollars for a year, and so
Speaker 1: if it's sponsorship support, because this is the thing that
Speaker 1: a lot of brands are starting to face now right
Speaker 1: where there's people being will or people are willing to
Speaker 1: pay for app services and content services, etcetera. Because the
Speaker 1: ad model has become so intrusive or not contextually relevant,
Speaker 1: it becomes sort of, you know, attractive, It's attractive to
Speaker 1: the experience. So how can will brands have an opportunity
Speaker 1: at all to play within the Pinnas base? Do you
Speaker 1: see them being able to create original content at any
Speaker 1: time in the future. Is this something that you're preserving
Speaker 1: strictly for programming At the moment, we're keeping it just
Speaker 1: a programming. We'll we'll have to think about whether that
Speaker 1: fits into the strategy going forward, but right now we're
Speaker 1: trying to establish it with our own original programming and
Speaker 1: with audio books and other things that are you know,
Speaker 1: don't have any brands mentioned. How How do you okay,
Speaker 1: so I knew that was Are you going to download
Speaker 1: it for Phoebe? I am actually um for my too,
Speaker 1: and she's a little young for us where we started four,
Speaker 1: she's advanced. I have no doubt anyway. So she screams
Speaker 1: at Amazon, we changed it. It's not Alexa, it's Amazon.
Speaker 1: It's not Axa Amazon. She said, yeah, because it's ridiculous
Speaker 1: when we're on the phone. Um. But so I want
Speaker 1: to challenge that, because how do we start separating programming
Speaker 1: from quote branded content, especially around advertisers, uh and brands
Speaker 1: like a Lego. Do you see Lego movie as just
Speaker 1: one giant branded content piece. I see it very much
Speaker 1: as like what we did with the message, which the
Speaker 1: point was to make a good movie, and they did.
Speaker 1: The Lego Movie was fantastic. Yeah. Um, I think not
Speaker 1: everything achieves that level. But if that's the aspiration and
Speaker 1: you achieve it, then I think it's great that. I mean,
Speaker 1: could brands come to you and say we want to
Speaker 1: do something like that, and you guys would be open
Speaker 1: to creating it, like underwriting content that no, actually creating
Speaker 1: original content. So like if a Lego came to Panoply
Speaker 1: and said, listen, got it it pin a no advertising.
Speaker 1: We love that, but we've got this crazy, you know
Speaker 1: idea and we're doing you know, aided um walk throughs
Speaker 1: of new wired legos, you know, for kids, and we
Speaker 1: want it. We're launching it on Amazon Echo. You know,
Speaker 1: could you conceivably cross the line, we'd be happy to
Speaker 1: talk about it. But the the ultimate arbit arbiters of
Speaker 1: what will be appropriate for the service will be the
Speaker 1: people who are paying money for it, That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So one thing that Alex and I are on this
Speaker 1: bit of a crusade around is the idea of the
Speaker 1: live read and how people if if we're going away
Speaker 1: back from subscription into the add model more than just
Speaker 1: the live read, right, it's just advertising and advertising, And
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that we have a
Speaker 1: little bit have been a little bit frustrated with has
Speaker 1: been the idea that brands are kind of creating these
Speaker 1: boilerplate briefs and they're handing them off to us without
Speaker 1: any sort of contextual correctness around the stuff that we're
Speaker 1: talking about. Is this something that you see becoming an
Speaker 1: issue and a reason why, just like Spotify, just like Hulu,
Speaker 1: people may want to deviate away from a ad supported
Speaker 1: model to a pay to liston model because we haven't
Speaker 1: protected the space in which people are like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to listen to five ads before I get into
Speaker 1: the content. It's just and they're and they'ren't even relevant. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I do think that those sorts of ads that are
Speaker 1: just read off a piece of copy are not as engaging.
Speaker 1: They don't work as well as the improvised direct response
Speaker 1: ads that people in podcasting do so well. So I
Speaker 1: do think that will start to have fatigue set in
Speaker 1: for listeners, and there may be more impetus for people
Speaker 1: to subscribe to add free versions if they're available of podcasting.
Speaker 1: But there isn't a really good solution now for how
Speaker 1: to get podcasts without ads. I mean, there is no
Speaker 1: one universal solution. There are individual one. Slate of course
Speaker 1: has Slate plus where you can get the podcast without ads,
Speaker 1: and bonus content on um Mark Marin has something, but
Speaker 1: each of these is for an individual network or even
Speaker 1: an individual podcast, and I think it's going to be
Speaker 1: hard to scale that because smaller podcasts, less popular podcasts
Speaker 1: are not really going to be able to jump on
Speaker 1: that bandwagon. Atreon is one other possibility for that, but
Speaker 1: it's hard. And I do think you're right that for
Speaker 1: the live read model, we have to protect what makes
Speaker 1: that work, which is clever, improvised content that is contextually
Speaker 1: relevant to the podcast itself. Yeah, I agree. So one
Speaker 1: thing I want to talk about, So you just signed
Speaker 1: with w m E. That's right, not me personally. Well,
Speaker 1: write on that for work on that for you exactly. Um, well,
Speaker 1: my dad was with William Morris before. It was really
Speaker 1: every time this happens, you never know, like the deep
Speaker 1: fan connection. This is happening kind of all over the place, right,
Speaker 1: So you're not the only network that's announced that they're
Speaker 1: working with some kind of you know, Hollywood, um negotiation
Speaker 1: creative shop. Right. Um, what do you think the future
Speaker 1: of audio to site and motion is going to be?
Speaker 1: Is it going to get stronger? Are you gonna Is
Speaker 1: this like a road that goes two ways where maybe
Speaker 1: Piano Pole is going to be pulling ip from Hollywood
Speaker 1: or feeding well and both and that's feeding Hollywood. I
Speaker 1: p is happening now, right, But you know what does
Speaker 1: it look like on the flip side? Is that something
Speaker 1: you're also looking at? Yes? Absolutely, we are actually actively
Speaker 1: in talks for doing something along those lines. You know
Speaker 1: one reason that we're with w m is we've been
Speaker 1: working with w m E for years now, they've brought
Speaker 1: us projects, they brought us potential podcast hosts. We have
Speaker 1: a really good working relationship with them already and with
Speaker 1: other agencies, so there it's been going both ways. But
Speaker 1: the advent of i P on the podcast side moving
Speaker 1: to Hollywood is relatively new. There's movies being made, Amazon
Speaker 1: series sorts of stuff, and honestly, as I talked to
Speaker 1: the agencies, they say that pod cast i P is
Speaker 1: the hot thing in Hollywood. It is. They're just hungry
Speaker 1: for anything that has proven itself in another medium, and
Speaker 1: you have this explosion of creativity going on in podcasting,
Speaker 1: so it's the natural place to look. Now. I grew
Speaker 1: up in l A and Hollywood. My parents were both
Speaker 1: in the industry, so I know how cyclical this is
Speaker 1: and how quickly something can go from the hottest thing
Speaker 1: to a total afterthoughts. So I'm not holding my breath
Speaker 1: and thinking that podcasts are always going to be a
Speaker 1: feeder for Hollywood. But I think, you know, as long
Speaker 1: as the creativity persists, it's going to be an excellent
Speaker 1: place because it's a lot cheaper to try something in
Speaker 1: audio than it is in video. Do you see a
Speaker 1: day where one of these podcast networks or many of
Speaker 1: these pod NetCast networks come together and create a super
Speaker 1: media company. Um, you know what happens to Apple and
Speaker 1: what happens because they own the pipes. At the end
Speaker 1: of the day, they own the pipes, and that is
Speaker 1: the thing that kills is killing agencies. It's the thing
Speaker 1: that's killing a lot of cre native um when people
Speaker 1: don't own the pipes and don't understand the pipes. And
Speaker 1: so could that happen to podcasts? It could? I mean,
Speaker 1: up until now, the technological barrier to podcasting has been
Speaker 1: surprisingly high, and the fact that the iPhone has a
Speaker 1: podcasting app native installed when you get the phone has
Speaker 1: been the easiest way to tell people to get podcasts.
Speaker 1: It gets a lot of people over the hump. And
Speaker 1: all these other apps that have come along, especially for
Speaker 1: the iPhone and for Android, that involve having to go
Speaker 1: find it, install it, set it up. It's just an
Speaker 1: extra step that few people are willing to make if
Speaker 1: there's an easy solution right there on your phone. So
Speaker 1: it would be very hard to do that, especially with
Speaker 1: content that is widely available everywhere. I do think it's conceivable.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, how much would it take to
Speaker 1: buy up all the podcasting companies in the world. It
Speaker 1: would take you know, less than your average your acquisition,
Speaker 1: not a lot of money, so it's possible. But still
Speaker 1: getting people over that hump when there is a good
Speaker 1: ad supported solution right now, I think would be difficult. Plus,
Speaker 1: you're never going to get everyone to pay. You're always
Speaker 1: going to have to have some sort of freemium model,
Speaker 1: and I think that you're probably always going to have
Speaker 1: the majority of people listening to the ad supported version,
Speaker 1: and I think that's great. I think having a freemium
Speaker 1: model like that is probably the best of all worlds
Speaker 1: because it gives access to people who can't afford it
Speaker 1: or don't want to pay for it for some reason,
Speaker 1: but it gives people who are willing or can do
Speaker 1: it a better experience. It's going to be like the
Speaker 1: difference between what Broadcast and Netflix is today to what
Speaker 1: I imagine you know, Apple will be to this TBD
Speaker 1: thing I think we're talking about. Yeah, I'm excited by it.
Speaker 1: I think it's really because it it does come down
Speaker 1: to the content. I p if Panically or Gimlet or
Speaker 1: w my C is producing the best content out there,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden decides to create that
Speaker 1: pipe and invest in the technology you to do it.
Speaker 1: Raising my hand, why wouldn't I want to go over
Speaker 1: and listen to those shows in the same way that
Speaker 1: I could only get House of Cards on Netflix? Right?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's what's happening with Disney right now and Netflix.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the whole thing. And that's why I ask.
Speaker 1: And We've always been good at dreaming about things, um
Speaker 1: and then making them, making them so um, something that
Speaker 1: I'm like obsessed with. I've been asking everyone that I
Speaker 1: know do you listen to podcasts? And the people that
Speaker 1: say no, they follow it with but I know I
Speaker 1: should be always right. So podcasting has this fomo craze, right,
Speaker 1: fear of missing out all over itself. What can brands do?
Speaker 1: They don't have to be the g E and come
Speaker 1: right and create original content with you, um and really
Speaker 1: share the I P with you. Right, But what can
Speaker 1: brands do today to start getting their toe really dipped
Speaker 1: into the space in a meaningful way. Well, the good
Speaker 1: news is, unlike branded content in print, where you have
Speaker 1: to it's hard to get people to go to your page.
Speaker 1: You know, all the strategy is usually going to an
Speaker 1: editorial organization and doing sponsored content on that page, so
Speaker 1: it's separate. There's always that word they're sponsored, right, and
Speaker 1: it is different. It's like separating it from the other content.
Speaker 1: The great thing about podcasting for brands, for individuals, for
Speaker 1: anyone who wants to get into it is you're all
Speaker 1: there in the same place. You are equal. And if
Speaker 1: you make good content that is relevant to people and
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like an AD, because no one's going to
Speaker 1: go seek out an AD. But there have been many
Speaker 1: examples beyond the message of really good branded content that
Speaker 1: is useful to people and they there is not that
Speaker 1: differentiation because anyone can play in that space. And you know,
Speaker 1: we got to number one on the iTunes charts. It
Speaker 1: wasn't number one on the branded charts. It was just
Speaker 1: the number one podcast. What are other examples, Andy, If
Speaker 1: you could just rattle off a couple of brands you
Speaker 1: see doing it really well right now? Um, I think
Speaker 1: Gimlet is doing really great branded content with their partners,
Speaker 1: and I think they know instinctively that it has to
Speaker 1: be an interesting show and has to have good stories
Speaker 1: on it in order to be interesting. But I suspect
Speaker 1: that they're doing quite well with it because I see
Speaker 1: them on the charts and their stuff is getting a
Speaker 1: lot of attention and it's good. Um, there are a
Speaker 1: number of other places doing it, we hear it. Slate
Speaker 1: and panopally have been doing it probably longer than anyone else.
Speaker 1: We had one of the first creative studios and one
Speaker 1: of the first brand it is actually the first. What's
Speaker 1: in your cue right now? What are you listening to?
Speaker 1: Hang on? I'll I have to be honest. I spend
Speaker 1: most of my time listening to potential and in process
Speaker 1: shows pilots. Yeah, I have so little time to just
Speaker 1: sit back and listen to podcasts for entertainment. Now, this
Speaker 1: is the curse podcasting. Is that I you know, doing
Speaker 1: that listening to a podcast for pleasure. It feels like
Speaker 1: I'm cheating, like I'm going to get in trouble for
Speaker 1: it because there's no work element to it. That's so funny.
Speaker 1: One more last question, what does global audio look like?
Speaker 1: It's so I mean, audio is such a great place
Speaker 1: right to really get to global audience. Is that something
Speaker 1: that you guys. I'm winking at you because I know
Speaker 1: that's something you guys have been plotting towards. But what
Speaker 1: does that really look like like other language podcasting and
Speaker 1: audio coming from originating maybe in the US. Well, um,
Speaker 1: Slate just launched l gab Fest. Did you know about that?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I read about it? Which is the Slate
Speaker 1: and panoplies first Spanish language. Any other language podcast I'm
Speaker 1: trying to plot speak Spanish or is it translating plots?
Speaker 1: Is not on it. It has a completely different cast
Speaker 1: of folks. But you know, I think Spanish language is
Speaker 1: probably the next big market because you know, it's just
Speaker 1: such a global reach. Um. I think Chinese would be interesting,
Speaker 1: but there's some question as to whether the Chinese government
Speaker 1: will allow podcasting of the kind of crazy um no
Speaker 1: holds barred type. But you know, English is such a
Speaker 1: powerful language worldwide that I think there's we we have
Speaker 1: a lot of our audiences overseas. We hear from people
Speaker 1: all over the world who listened to our podcasts. The
Speaker 1: message charted in countries. So yeah, before we let you
Speaker 1: go kill by d I y really quick, what would
Speaker 1: you kill? What would you buy? What would you do yourself?
Speaker 1: I would kill the term podcasting if it was possible
Speaker 1: to kill. At this point, I think it has gotten
Speaker 1: enough brand awareness that, um, it's too late. But I
Speaker 1: think to a person, podcasters, at least those of us
Speaker 1: who have been around for a long time, think it
Speaker 1: is a terrible term. It refers to a device that
Speaker 1: doesn't even exist anymore. It was a joke. It was
Speaker 1: a joke in a newspaper column. Really yeah, at the
Speaker 1: end of two thousand four, I think this guy was
Speaker 1: just throwing out funny names that this new medium could
Speaker 1: be called, and it's throughout podcasting, and somehow it stuck.
Speaker 1: Everyone at MPR went yes, no, they weren't that interested
Speaker 1: in if those of us in it said, oh, that's
Speaker 1: kind of funny, and then it just kind of stuck around.
Speaker 1: People have been trying to rename it for years. I
Speaker 1: think that ship is sal for now. For now. But
Speaker 1: I also when people talk to me about podcasting, and
Speaker 1: then Lauren and I talked about this in Laura said earlier,
Speaker 1: it's not about podcasting. To us is this is about audio?
Speaker 1: This is about audio. It's audio on demand, video on demand. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would buy the Echo and the smart speakers because
Speaker 1: I think that's you tend for like a hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: I mean I did buy one of the speakers. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: I think that is going to be the future of
Speaker 1: this medium. Agreed. I think it's so important because it's
Speaker 1: all about voice. Could you imagine if it becomes Alexa casting?
Speaker 1: I will literally lose my mind. No, you lose your mind.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna lose my mind. I think Apple and Google
Speaker 1: are not going to allow They're not going to allow
Speaker 1: that to happen. But it's a race. And what would
Speaker 1: you do yourself? I would do I would carve out
Speaker 1: time to make more children's podcast myself. Oh nice, I
Speaker 1: love making kids podcasts. You could be like the Mr
Speaker 1: Rogers podcast. But he actually I forgot this. You didn't
Speaker 1: you do something with your dot? Didn't you write? You write?
Speaker 1: You wrote something for your daughter. You started doing a
Speaker 1: podcast together in two thousand five when she was five,
Speaker 1: and uh it. We went on for four or five
Speaker 1: years and it's now in Pinna. It's called Molly and
Speaker 1: the Sugar Monster, and which, by the way, so in
Speaker 1: your Twitter bio in which I didn't know, I was like,
Speaker 1: what does he talking about the sugar Monster? But now
Speaker 1: I know. Yes, he's a guy who comes to children's
Speaker 1: dinner tables and tells them don't eat anything healthy. Amazing.
Speaker 1: I'm not note. Thank you Andy Bowers Johnton, Officer of ANIPLA.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you Twitter at Andy Bowers? Awesome, Andy,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. It's been a blast. Andy Bowers,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us on the episode, and we're always
Speaker 1: supporting our show and us of these ladies going into
Speaker 1: l gap Fest. Maybe there's a la wait I don't
Speaker 1: speak Spanish. I was a German student, Lindia German. The
Speaker 1: next version, um, yes, So we want to thank Cameron
Speaker 1: Drew's are almost eighteen year old producer. Thank you kill
Speaker 1: that joke eventually, Kim, I can't. I gotta get maybe
Speaker 1: when yeah, maybe when we one we'll take you out.
Speaker 1: So thank you to our friends and family, a panoply,
Speaker 1: and a big thanks to our listeners. People who are
Speaker 1: talking to us on added Landia Podcast, emailing us at
Speaker 1: at Landia podcast at gmail dot com. Please review us
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts wherever you're listening to pods. And one
Speaker 1: of the re us I think we'll come away with
Speaker 1: this episode is tell five friends we'll take you out
Speaker 1: for pizza as many as we can fit around the pie.
Speaker 1: So thanks for listening everybody. We'll be back in two
Speaker 1: weeks m H Full disclosure. Our opinions are our own.