WEBVTT - Golden Age of Audio (+ Sugar Monsters) 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.920 I'm off my game today. No, you're not. People are 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:05.760 going to have to start making better content. I think 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:07.320 we're gonna be talking about this for a long time. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.319 When you program for everyone, you program for no one. 0:00:10.360 --> 0:00:12.440 I think it's a were purpose driven platform. Like we're 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.120 trying to get to substance. How was that you happy 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.080 with that? This is marketing therapy right now? It really is? 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.720 What's up? This is Laura Currency and I'm Alexa Christen. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.240 Welcome back to Atlantia, episode eighteen. Does that make us 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.520 vicial adults? You said we all grows up. We all 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.080 grows up, we grown camp. That doesn't include you, know. 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.559 So We've got a great show talking about audio with 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:39.760 Andy Bowers, who super meta, super Meta we like, By 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:41.879 the way, we need to bring back Mamas. We need 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.360 to bring back mamas. We do. Laura's referring to a 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:47.120 little bit of meta and a little bit of Mama. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.360 If you haven't listened to that episode, you will laugh 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.639 your ass off. And if you don't, something's wrong with you. 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.240 You're missing a chip. So anyhow, anyhow, we have Andy 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:57.320 Bowers on the show, chief content officer of Panoply, also 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.880 a good friend. I feel like I always say that, 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:01.520 but it's true. We have a lot of good friends 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:03.680 that come in here and talk to us. But someone 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.600 that we created g podcast Theater with how many years ago, 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.440 almost four and I was four years ago excuse like 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:14.080 industry veteran came up through NPR, was really just waiting 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.640 for the tech element of audio to take off, to 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.160 give everybody access to what he's been seeing all along 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.640 and super interesting to dive into past future present. Yeah, 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.479 and also brands can get involved in podcasting because we're 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:31.600 really not there yet. We have a lot of friends 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.000 in the industry who are like, how do I get 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.840 into this space? Not for their own show, meaning like 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.960 how do I get my brand into this space and 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.080 maybe for their own show? I don't know, And we 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.840 always tell them like, this is the opportunity to be 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:47.720 stand out and think about this in a totally different 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:51.720 way and get into audio before audio starts getting so saturated, 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.360 not just with advertising, but I think with experience. And 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.320 what we're going to see is that the space actually 0:01:56.320 --> 0:02:00.320 starts getting pretty saturated in terms of um ex ovariants 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:02.279 and content. And one of the things that I'm excited 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:04.800 about is people bringing audio I R L right in 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.560 real life. So how do people start taking what's the 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.679 crossover the conversations with a microphone and bringing it into 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:15.800 physical location so people can hear conversations that you know 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:19.360 normally are reserved for the studio space, but start to 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:23.520 actually now add the component of uh, you know, dialogue 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.000 with those who listen with physical physical, physical space. Yeah, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.480 big on that. And there are a lot of and 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:30.960 there are a lot of people who are There are 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:32.880 a lot of people who are doing it. But I 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.120 think that the opportunity for brands to get involved and 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.960 like figure out where can they be additive to the 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.960 talent in a physical experience is actually pretty exciting. So 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.520 Andy Bauer's coming on in a few minutes with Laura 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:47.760 and I. But in the meantime, Laura and I have 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:50.160 some thoughts what are we talking about today? So today 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:55.440 I feel like Burton Ernie today. Um, there are a 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.360 couple of things that have been getting on my nerves lately. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:03.400 One when is brand content going to go away? What's 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:05.560 interesting about that is some of the reaction we heard 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.000 from episode seventeen with Vices Ben Deets was to one 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:10.960 of the points he made, which I think may have 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.160 been one of the single most important points um was 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.400 when he talks about the inspiration for when they created 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.000 the network. They came up in a world where they 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.560 believed on the edges that ads were content and content 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.440 we're ats, and a lot of people reacted to that, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.480 not in positive or negative. Just in thanks for making 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.880 me think about that differently. And I think to your 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:33.360 point we heard earlier in one of our earlier shows 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:36.040 with Keith Grossman from Bloomberg, it's like, it's only advertising 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.040 when it's bad advertising. So there's there's it's only that 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.480 time one. Yeah, there's something perkling. But I also think 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.839 like we're hitting this place where everybody now is coming 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.920 out with some kind of not everybody. I think that 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.800 they were the early folks. Now we're kind of in 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:51.960 the middle. And then I think we're going to hit 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:56.720 like probably a big critical volume of brands coming out 0:03:56.760 --> 0:04:00.960 with more kind of original content or co produced content, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:04.680 which I'm all for, But I just wonder when do 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:09.640 we saturate right people's ears, eyes and hearts with branded 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.000 content and people just start really loving brands or an 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.360 experience that they're having with brands and it's no longer 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.960 branded content, and like is branded content, just content can 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.680 get just good content. And I think a lot of 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:28.359 this and I'm seeing and enjoying is brands starting to, 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:32.599 I guess, fragment their approach to the market. Where you've 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.920 got products and services and what your heart cell is 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.080 on one side the coin and on the other side 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.479 of the coin, it's about your purpose, drive emission. And 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.680 I think we've heard about that over We've heard about 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:44.520 that over seventeen episodes on this show. You know, put 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:46.919 your money where your brand promises. And I think what 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.640 HP is doing with keep reinventing. I think what we've 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.680 seen with Glossier do around body Hero love, Body Hero awesome. 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:58.320 I think what we've seeing, you know, Airbnb start to 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.840 you know, delve into around diversity and inclusion. You know, 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.039 brands are starting to recognize that to fall in love 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:08.799 with a brand, it doesn't necessarily need to be tethered 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:10.919 to that product or service that it is that you're selling. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.560 It's what are those values, what are those you know, 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.479 consciousable things that you can put forward into the market. 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:18.840 But now it's not good enough to just say it. 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:21.000 I think there's this level of accountability where we actually 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:22.680 have to invest in you have to invest in. It 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.760 has to be real. Is this the same conversation we've 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:29.880 had over the seventeen episodes? No, and yes, But for 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.240 some reason it's been getting on my nerves a lot 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:34.920 as people I've been talking to or talking about brand 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:37.039 of content, brand and content, brand of content and that 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:38.920 they're going out there and they're creating it, and I'm 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.560 all for it, But to your point, when does it 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:48.560 turn into something that's produced brands? That's right, something that's 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.560 produced um and that sits outside of the brand and 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.040 kind of it's peripheral or it's kind of core to 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:55.919 the brand. One of the things that's always blown my 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.680 mind is like, don't some of these brands have more 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:03.880 credibility and pertise and some of these categories than content 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.800 creators do. And with that regard, don't they have more 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:12.240 of a right than Hollywood UM to talk about sustainability? 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.160 For example? Don't they have a right to talk about 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.880 the future relative to climate change or diversity or for 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:23.719 the housing market? Goldman Sachs like, I mean, that's the thing, right, 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.040 Like I would actually listen to Goldman Sachs talking about 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.680 right a financial crisis. I would rather listen to Jamie 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:33.960 Diamond of JP Morgan Chase talk about you know what 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.360 his opinions are on bitcoin, whether I agree with them 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.880 or not. Right, So anyway, that's my rant. You have one, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:41.680 And I think the thing that's going to be interesting 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:43.920 is uh and we're going to get into it with Bowers. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.040 Is the idea of ad supported versus pay to lists 0:06:48.040 --> 0:06:51.320 and or pay to read or pay to watch. And 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.680 I think, you know, assume you know it's interesting, you know, 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:59.279 to start thinking about, well, what does mass mean anymore? 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.320 And is it more valuable? And our people going to 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:04.920 be more willing to pay for content that has an 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:08.640 expertise in an authority as opposed to something that is 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:10.600 just meant to entertain. And I think that's more to 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.280 maybe generic too, does that you know when you go 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.120 for that math we say it in the beginning of 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.400 the show. You know, when you're programming for everyone, you're 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.600 programming for no one. It's not a new idea. And 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.920 so do we move from mass and efficiency to context 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.040 and effectiveness? And I think that at the end of 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:27.840 the day is the world I want to live in 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.280 as a marketer. So me too, preach. We'll be back 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:47.320 with Andy Bowers after the break. So we're back in 0:07:47.360 --> 0:07:52.280 the studio with a good friend, Andy Bowers, chief content 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:57.200 officer of panoply Hi Andy and also known to Alex 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:00.440 and I as our podfather father us. I have to 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:03.360 say I'm not officially allowed to accept that title. Uh, 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:06.239 someone else has claimed to it, but you can be ours. 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.400 You've been actually telling us that for like three years 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.480 because the first time we met you, when we went 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.680 and talked to you about the message that we did 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:15.720 right to the podcast theater, We're like, oh my god, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:18.000 we're meeting with the pod father. Laura and I were 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:20.120 like so excited, and then we like just came out 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.840 in the meeting. We're like, you're the pod father and 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:23.440 you're like, you can't say that, but we were like, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.880 we're gonna say it anyway. I will not stop you. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.200 So can we tell people about the origin of how 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.280 the three of us met because it's one of my 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:37.160 most favorite partnership development process in my career. Yeah, me too. Um, 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.439 we had this idea like, why shouldn't we be telling 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:45.760 our brand story in an audio space in a fictional format. 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:48.560 I was kind of obsessed with what was happening with 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:51.640 Serial Less. I mean, the story was amazing, right, the 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:54.440 reporting and the journalism and the narrative amazing, all of 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:56.840 that amazing, Yes, hands down, we all know that. But 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.560 what I was fascinated with was what was happening in 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.880 human behavior, consumer behavior, people listening to kind of this 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:09.960 new narrative on demand audio. And I called Laura and 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:14.319 I said, holy shit, this is big and we shouldn't 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.560 be doing video. We should be explaining our story and 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.360 bringing people along via an entertainment platform, and I want 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.680 to do it in audio. And she was like, hold on, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:27.760 I gotta order my number three at Taco Bell. Literally 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:29.960 at midnight. At mid night. I was coming home on 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.640 the train and Laura was at Taco Bell and she 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.960 was like, this is right, and we know and we 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:37.720 know who to take this to. And then we met you. 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:43.320 We were sitting at Lapan lacot Did in right Pancoated 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:46.440 in in Midtown and we walked in. It was this 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:48.600 long table, it was noisy, and it was breakfast, and 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:50.360 I was sitting next to you and Laura was like 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:53.200 on the other side with Turk and we started talking 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:57.120 about this g podcast theater and the message and what 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.400 this could look like and how we wanted a partner 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.280 to come along side us and not do just branded 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.559 content right, but to really truly co produce this production 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.880 like a true original production. This is a twenty. It 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:18.000 was either yes, it was the beginning tail end. And 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.120 you looked at me and in your very Andy Bower's way, 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:24.080 like we were just saying out before we were on Mike, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:27.800 like the coolest hipster and pr guy in the room like, 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.800 who are you talking about? Yeah, you like the coolest hipster. 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:33.320 We'll say it again, Okay, we're not talking about you 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.600 can stop raising your hand, um, And you looked at 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:40.640 me totally calm, and you were like yes, and it 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.079 was you. You were just like absolute yes. And then 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:47.520 you told me the story about your dad. Yes. Well, 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.520 you had said that you wanted to recreate G. E. Theater, 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.680 the TV show from the fifties with Ronald Reagan and 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:56.360 turn it into ge Podcast Theater, And I think I 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.520 just blurted out, oh, that's so cool because my dad 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.280 used to write for G. E. Theater. He was a 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.880 screenwriter and TV writer. And uh, I think you liked that. 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.960 It was like we were like, I liked it, but 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.360 it was also like you gave you weren't that calm, 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.800 like I have to say like this, we did get 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.840 maybe a little beat of sweat on your head. You 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.960 were like, yes, yes, and oh, by the way, I 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.520 have a personal connection to this, and I just knew 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.040 it was right. We just knew we were just like 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.200 people done. From my point of view, I go to 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.200 a lot of pitch meetings all the time, and you know, 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:31.040 the majority of them, sometimes the vast majority of them 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.520 do not amount to anything, and I come away underwhelmed 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.440 by what people have pitched. And Matt said, you know, 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.319 these are my friends from ge. They have this amazing 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.199 idea for something. I think it has to do with drama, 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.400 but it's branded. And I'm like, oh god, what is 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.520 this going to be? And you laid it out for me, 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.719 and I kept in my mind thinking, Okay, where's the 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.520 big problem with this because this can't be what I'm thinking, 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:59.480 which is this actually sounds really good. It's not only 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:04.120 a good idea to do a branded scripted series, but 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.920 their actual idea is a good idea. I would listen 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.680 to this show. You know, you laid out the idea 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.240 that there's this message that's been around for since World 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.480 War Two that was received and people have been trying 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:16.800 to decode it. I think that was kind of the 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.360 German the idea you had, um that was like the 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:22.280 beginning treatment. Yeah, but it was all there in the 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.800 beginning treatment that the germ of I mean, that's exactly 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.160 what we produced. And so I kept trying to think 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.400 of ways to disqualify and I couldn't, And so I 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.080 actually grew excited in a way that I rarely have. 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:37.280 I think we got you. We got you excited a 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.200 lot during the process. I mean absolutely, It's only been 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.680 four years since the impetus of this partnership, and I 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.000 think it's interesting and obviously we want to shift the 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:52.360 conversation we're here approaching podcasting has exploded would probably be 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:56.560 it underwhelming way of talking about what's happened in the space. 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.680 Can you believe where it's come from having been in 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.000 this space since the days of MPR, or have you 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:06.600 just been waiting on and saying what's taking some that 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:10.000 kind of that one. Yes, I started podcasting, and I 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:13.600 think it was July of two thousand five. I had 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.439 been actually before that waiting for what the digital audio 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:20.720 spoken word medium would be. It was easy to make 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.920 audio on the internet, but it was not easy to 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.240 distribute it. And when that distribution method came along, I said, ah, 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:28.800 this is what I've been waiting for. So I just 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.760 I mean, even though it was incredibly cumbersome in those days. 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:35.120 I mean like that was before the smartphone, So you 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.640 had to download a podcast to your desktop computer and 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.520 then sink it to your iPod, And it was you know, 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:45.000 for me to think that normal people would go through 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.040 this incredible process to get what you can get from 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:51.840 the radio was not realistic. But I saw then just 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:54.840 the power of on demand audio. How when you set 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:57.679 your own schedule and you listen to what makes you 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.959 happy or interested or entertained on your schedule rather than 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:05.920 the radio schedule. It was incredibly powerful and addictive, and 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.000 so I knew that this was going to be the 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.480 future of the medium. I thought it would happen a 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:13.640 lot quicker, especially when the smartphone came along. When the 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.080 iPhone came in two thousands seven, I thought, oh, finally 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.680 we're here. And I kept waiting and waiting. In my 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.720 old colleagues at NPR, We're like, what are you doing podcasting? 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:24.920 What is this weird thing? That kind of thought I 0:14:24.960 --> 0:14:27.280 was crazy, But then they got into it. Well, yes, 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.840 now the pool is very full. Yeah, the pool is 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:33.800 very full. So I mean my question is have we 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.960 hit mass with podcasting? You know, from an audience perspective, 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:40.400 I mean, how many podcasts? So you were on Charlie Rose. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:42.280 Let me take a detour. Actually, you were on Charlie 0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:45.280 Rose last week. I think it came out last week. 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:49.160 I think so. Yeah, and you were talking about, you know, 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.240 kind of is this this great awakening you with a 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:56.400 bunch of other guests, Um, great awakening of the you know, 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.440 re rethinking of the golden age of audio, and Um, 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.760 my question is have we really hit mass in audience 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:08.760 or have we hit mass in volume of content? Right? Well, 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:12.440 in terms of volume of content four thousand podcasts and iTunes, 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:17.680 I think that's critical mass, chaotic mass. Yeah. I hope 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.560 that actually clears out a little bit because it's just 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.440 way too confusing to find what you want. In terms 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:26.560 of audience, I think there's a lot more awareness now 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.720 of podcasting. I think the audience has a long way 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.600 to grow. We're still I don't know, quarter to a 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.160 third of Americans who regularly listen. I think most spoken 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.320 word audio will be listened to on demand in the future. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:40.680 So I think we have a long way to go. 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:44.160 But now it's not a joke. I mean in the 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:45.920 old days, I would go to a dinner party and 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:51.040 say what I did, and people be like, podcasting isn't 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:53.960 that dead? No, No, it's going really well, but they 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.280 you know, it had totally lost its cachet. Well, now 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.440 that's not true. Yeah, now that's not true at all. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.960 When you talk about you know, we're only a third 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.360 or two thirds of the way there, you know, with 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.720 technology and Alexa and I have talked quite a bit 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.200 about the disappearing interface and the idea that audio will 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.000 be that pervasive through line through everything we do, whether 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.600 that's you know, via your technology in your hand, whether 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.040 that's smart home audio in your home, whether that's in 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:25.920 your car. So those sort of some kind of ambient assistant, right, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.960 So those are the things that get us excited and saying, like, 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.200 to your point, like, we haven't even approached the tipping 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.880 point in terms of where there is this critical, massive 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.280 audience that understands the power of this medium and storytelling. 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.040 We talk a lot about you know, brands understanding that 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.280 you know, podcasting is only one part of the audio strategy. So, 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.480 as somebody who's the chief content officer of what I 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.880 would deem an audio network, what are some of the 0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:53.520 things that you see as being utility and audio that 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.520 brands can start thinking about exploring. Well, one thing is, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.600 we just launched a children's audio service called Penna, which 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.680 is a subscription service, and this is, you know, the 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:08.439 opposite of ad supported. We decided very affirmatively that we 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:12.120 did not want to have advertising for children in this network, 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:14.800 so we made it a paid subscription service with a 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.639 free podcasting component. But people have been saying for a 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.119 long time, when are we going to get to the 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:22.880 point when people will pay for audio? And it's hard 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:27.760 with podcasts being out there free for a dozen years now, Um, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.280 people are not used to it. The advertising model works 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:33.480 really well. It's far less intrusive than radio. It's more 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.080 interesting the ad so it works on that level. But um, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.679 for kids audio, we at least really don't want to 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.359 do that advertising. So we're now going to have this 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.119 grand experiment where we're putting a lot of great programming, 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:49.439 archival and original programming in this app Penna, and people 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:52.320 are already in just a few weeks they're signing on 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.920 and we're getting a great feedback for it is seven 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.360 month or seventy nine dollars for a year, and so 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.119 if it's sponsorship support, because this is the thing that 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:04.840 a lot of brands are starting to face now right 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.480 where there's people being will or people are willing to 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:12.239 pay for app services and content services, etcetera. Because the 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:17.080 ad model has become so intrusive or not contextually relevant, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.600 it becomes sort of, you know, attractive, It's attractive to 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.359 the experience. So how can will brands have an opportunity 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:26.520 at all to play within the Pinnas base? Do you 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.160 see them being able to create original content at any 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.320 time in the future. Is this something that you're preserving 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.119 strictly for programming At the moment, we're keeping it just 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.439 a programming. We'll we'll have to think about whether that 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.840 fits into the strategy going forward, but right now we're 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.320 trying to establish it with our own original programming and 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.119 with audio books and other things that are you know, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.639 don't have any brands mentioned. How How do you okay, 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:51.200 so I knew that was Are you going to download 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:54.840 it for Phoebe? I am actually um for my too, 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:57.600 and she's a little young for us where we started four, 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.600 she's advanced. I have no doubt anyway. So she screams 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.199 at Amazon, we changed it. It's not Alexa, it's Amazon. 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.520 It's not Axa Amazon. She said, yeah, because it's ridiculous 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.680 when we're on the phone. Um. But so I want 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:17.040 to challenge that, because how do we start separating programming 0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:22.680 from quote branded content, especially around advertisers, uh and brands 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.679 like a Lego. Do you see Lego movie as just 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.680 one giant branded content piece. I see it very much 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:32.399 as like what we did with the message, which the 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.080 point was to make a good movie, and they did. 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:39.399 The Lego Movie was fantastic. Yeah. Um, I think not 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.159 everything achieves that level. But if that's the aspiration and 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.840 you achieve it, then I think it's great that. I mean, 0:19:45.880 --> 0:19:47.560 could brands come to you and say we want to 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.400 do something like that, and you guys would be open 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:55.159 to creating it, like underwriting content that no, actually creating 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:58.320 original content. So like if a Lego came to Panoply 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.520 and said, listen, got it it pin a no advertising. 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.159 We love that, but we've got this crazy, you know 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:09.520 idea and we're doing you know, aided um walk throughs 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:14.119 of new wired legos, you know, for kids, and we 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.760 want it. We're launching it on Amazon Echo. You know, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:21.240 could you conceivably cross the line, we'd be happy to 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.119 talk about it. But the the ultimate arbit arbiters of 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:27.800 what will be appropriate for the service will be the 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.560 people who are paying money for it, That's right. Yeah. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:32.639 So one thing that Alex and I are on this 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.040 bit of a crusade around is the idea of the 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.560 live read and how people if if we're going away 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:40.080 back from subscription into the add model more than just 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.000 the live read, right, it's just advertising and advertising, And 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:45.879 I think one of the things that we have a 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.640 little bit have been a little bit frustrated with has 0:20:48.720 --> 0:20:52.000 been the idea that brands are kind of creating these 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.720 boilerplate briefs and they're handing them off to us without 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:58.800 any sort of contextual correctness around the stuff that we're 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:02.120 talking about. Is this something that you see becoming an 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:06.080 issue and a reason why, just like Spotify, just like Hulu, 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:10.520 people may want to deviate away from a ad supported 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.679 model to a pay to liston model because we haven't 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:17.000