Speaker 1: Today's episode contains spoilers for The Witch and The Lighthouse,
Speaker 1: so be prepared for that. Hello, my name is Joel Lenique.
Speaker 2: And I am Carmen Laurent and.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Xtra Vision Extras, an X ray vision series
Speaker 1: where we dive deep into even more of your favorite shows, movies, comics,
Speaker 1: and pop culture. Every superhero team meets side Quest, and
Speaker 1: our rotating panel of producers and guest hosts will be
Speaker 1: suiting up to help Jason and Rosie cover all of
Speaker 1: the amazing nerd content out there.
Speaker 2: Today in the series of Robert Egger's coverage, we are
Speaker 2: covering the movie from twenty nineteen, The Lighthouse, and in
Speaker 2: our this is all in our lead up to the
Speaker 2: movie coming out on Christmas Day this year No Speratu,
Speaker 2: so get ready for that and like I said, get
Speaker 2: all your gas out now.
Speaker 1: Tired of these damn farts. But first, yes, previously on okay,
Speaker 1: let's try to have you listened to The Witch. Last
Speaker 1: week we had a very chaotic recap. We're going to
Speaker 1: try to duplicate recapping the Stillness Sour. I was thinking
Speaker 1: about Essel's watching and I was like, it's so big
Speaker 1: and nebulous. This movie that it's really hard to beyond
Speaker 1: the basic description, which I think would go something like
Speaker 1: this young man gets hired to go to a lighthouse
Speaker 1: where he meets an over zealous aged lighthouse watcher. Uh huh,
Speaker 1: as he's pushed to the edge of his sanity to
Speaker 1: anyone with an overzealous boss can easily identify with a
Speaker 1: battle ensues between the two of them, centered specifically on
Speaker 1: their masculinity. Over time, power exchanges hands more and more rapidly,
Speaker 1: to the point where sometimes you're talking two minutes of
Speaker 1: a character being in a position of power before somebody
Speaker 1: else overtakes that. Uh. They are driven mad by isolation,
Speaker 1: bad weather.
Speaker 2: And the sea, maybe even the lighthouse.
Speaker 1: Possibly, Oh, we're going to get into Possibly the lighthouse
Speaker 1: is doing it, and they're both driven to a state
Speaker 1: of madness that sort of ends up in a BDSM
Speaker 1: pet play relationships. There are a spackling of great Shakespearean
Speaker 1: monologues where Egres gets to showcase his knowledge of the
Speaker 1: bard An attempt to do some of his own monologue writing,
Speaker 1: and mysterious ending did we do it, didn't we do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very it's very I mean, this is like
Speaker 2: and we're gonna we're gonna talk about it in the
Speaker 2: discussion here, but it's very much like a very cosmic horror,
Speaker 2: and that is what leads to it being kind of,
Speaker 2: I think, so confusing and also fun to watch, or
Speaker 2: all of the cosmic elements of this.
Speaker 1: So glad you said cosmic horror, because the whole time
Speaker 1: I was thinking about space. Hear me out, Yes, like
Speaker 1: the ocean being this vast unknown, the ocean maybe being
Speaker 1: a stand in for women. I had this thought of, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe this film is saying the ocean is like women
Speaker 1: in that they are deep and unknowable, and they are
Speaker 1: a horizon you cannot touch, especially if you're a man
Speaker 1: isolated on an island with another man, which was like,
Speaker 1: that's the the layers of visual artistry we're dealing with.
Speaker 1: Let's go over some of the stats of this film
Speaker 1: before we get too far into a breakdown. So this
Speaker 1: is released May nineteen, twenty nineteen. It can October eighteenth.
Speaker 1: It comes to US theaters. It's got a budget of
Speaker 1: eleven million and does a box office of about eighteen
Speaker 1: point three, which for a sophomore film coming off the
Speaker 1: success of The Witch. Yeah, it's interesting. I think from
Speaker 1: a producer investor perspective, this might have been a little
Speaker 1: bit disappointing. But from an artistic director standpoint, if your
Speaker 1: movie makes money, you did it. We can pay back
Speaker 1: the investors. Everyone got a small percentage. We didn't make
Speaker 1: as much money as we were hoping, but we got
Speaker 1: our percentages off.
Speaker 2: That's a seven million, seven million, you know.
Speaker 1: What, Damn straight seven million is enough to start funding
Speaker 1: the next film. We can put it that way. Jarren
Speaker 1: Blashki is the cinematographer.
Speaker 2: Sorry, also basically the same team he used for The
Speaker 2: Witch Yes music and cinematography, which is great.
Speaker 1: I think I really appreciate a director who's like, this
Speaker 1: is my crew, because if you have spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time on a crew, it's just really good. I'm Carmen.
Speaker 1: You spent your first was that your first time working
Speaker 1: with the film crew when you were down in Texas?
Speaker 2: No, we did it here in Atlanta. We did it
Speaker 2: at the Atlanta Capital. That was with Lisa from The
Speaker 2: Fake Doctor's Real Friends production.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 2: And of course I've been on I've been on a
Speaker 2: set when we did our Toyota film, our Toyota commercial,
Speaker 2: and I've been on another set with Violet when she
Speaker 2: shot her music video for Fade de Grae, the cover
Speaker 2: of the song Fade Degrae. So I've seen a couple,
Speaker 2: you know, small productions, but that was my first time
Speaker 2: actually working on a production and a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: It is a lot of fun, and I think when
Speaker 1: you're coming back to the same cruise repeatedly, there's a
Speaker 1: level of artistic creativity and pushing one another that you
Speaker 1: get to do. Uh. And he's worked with Giant on
Speaker 1: all of this films. So he also shoots The Northman
Speaker 1: and The Witch.
Speaker 2: Does he shoot the uh, the Nose Frauty movie?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll
Speaker 1: do some deeper research on Jarn's you talk about him
Speaker 1: when we talk about the north film, because I actually
Speaker 1: had a lot of questions and we're going to get
Speaker 1: into some color theory on this black and white film
Speaker 1: because I have a lot of thoughts about that. Okay,
Speaker 1: So Mark Korn does the music. It's got a respectable
Speaker 1: runtime of one hundred and nine minutes. I thought this
Speaker 1: movie was longer. I remember it feeling very long. It
Speaker 1: does because of the stress Hunters. It's really chaotic. How
Speaker 1: do you feel about the run time?
Speaker 2: The tension builds very slowly throughout the movie, just like
Speaker 2: in The Witch. Similarly, there's a lot of similarities between
Speaker 2: this movie and The Witch. I find there and we
Speaker 2: are going to hark. I also wanted to say, Jaron,
Speaker 2: he is the one who pushed Robert Egger's to shoot
Speaker 2: in this almost square aspect ratio. So it's like one
Speaker 2: point one nine to one aspect ratio with black and
Speaker 2: white thirty five millimeter film on these like teak lenses.
Speaker 2: So I think that's where some of the budget went
Speaker 2: in comparison to The Witch. This was also shot in Canada,
Speaker 2: Nova Scotia. It was shot at Cape Horseshoe is what
Speaker 2: it's called, and they built the lighthouse themselves, which I
Speaker 2: found to be very interesting.
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to talk to you about Edgar's dollhouse theory,
Speaker 1: especially when it was so much more prominent in this
Speaker 1: movie than in The Witch, and I thought it was
Speaker 1: used a great effect.
Speaker 2: Yeah The Witch.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's talk about first reactions and experiences watching
Speaker 1: this film. Do you remember the first time you saw
Speaker 1: this film?
Speaker 2: Yes? I actually okay, so I just recently watched this
Speaker 2: for the first time. I want to say, back in
Speaker 2: late September early October, and it was around the same
Speaker 2: time I actually watched the first episode of the Uzumaki anime,
Speaker 2: which first episode was great and then it went on
Speaker 2: on a downward spiral. And I remember thinking after I
Speaker 2: watched the Uzamaki first episode and then watching this, I
Speaker 2: remember thinking, Wow, there's a lot of similarities between this
Speaker 2: and Uzumaki. Obviously they're different subject matter, but they are
Speaker 2: both cosmic horrors, and they are both in black and white.
Speaker 2: And the kind of droning, especially at the beginning of
Speaker 2: the movie, you have that like droning horn sound that
Speaker 2: is played throughout all kind of gave me same like
Speaker 2: atmospheric vibes of the Uza Maki and this is just
Speaker 2: like The Witch is another movie that is very much vibes.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of vibes and a lot of atmosphere
Speaker 2: going on here.
Speaker 1: Both get into some weird cerebral body horror as well.
Speaker 1: I consider The Mermaid vagina body horror. I'm just gonna look,
Speaker 1: you guys, it's so weird.
Speaker 2: The tentacles and all of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, you see a lot of reputation there.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: I first saw this at TIFF and there was a
Speaker 1: lot of buzz obviously coming after Can and the question
Speaker 1: was sort of, will general audiences like this like they
Speaker 1: liked The Witch. The answer was for a lot of
Speaker 1: critics was no. I think box office suggests that's true.
Speaker 1: It's not as in my mind accessible as The Witch.
Speaker 1: But I remember leaning back in the theater and being like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is brilliant, like just for I like a movie
Speaker 1: that makes me feel And I think, yeah, that's not
Speaker 1: an experience everyone vibes with, particularly and perhaps I've been
Speaker 1: talking to a lot of folks who don't like horror,
Speaker 1: almost all men, by the way, who were like, I
Speaker 1: am not interested in horror films. I don't want to
Speaker 1: watch Aaron and abou our producers here don't like horror.
Speaker 1: They we were like passes to nostraati. They're like, well, literally,
Speaker 1: pass We're not interested.
Speaker 2: My boyfriend not at all interested.
Speaker 1: Really, Okay, so this is fast. Please write in and
Speaker 1: tell us if you're a man who doesn't enjoy horror
Speaker 1: or why. I just want to hear more about this.
Speaker 1: A lot of the guys I've talked to have an
Speaker 1: issue there, like I don't like the feeling of being terrified.
Speaker 1: It puts me on edge. I can't relax. I don't
Speaker 1: understand why you're having fun with this. I think women
Speaker 1: are always afraid and being.
Speaker 2: Able exactly what I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: Being able to practice it in a safe environment where
Speaker 1: you can't actually be hurt is a wonderful fun bonding
Speaker 1: experience with your galp hoals And because and we sort
Speaker 1: of talked about this before on some of our other
Speaker 1: horror episodes, but having a final girl that you can
Speaker 1: really lean into you and love is such a joy.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what makes horror great. And with
Speaker 1: that thought in mind, I would talk about like the
Speaker 1: gender identity in Egger's films, if we have what He's
Speaker 1: like again. Eggars didn't call it a feminist film, but
Speaker 1: said that he was proud or excited. I can't remember
Speaker 1: his exact adjective. That people felt like The Witch was
Speaker 1: feminist film, and to me, I think you could categorize
Speaker 1: it as that there's some possibly if there aren't that
Speaker 1: many women involved directly in the storytelling, is it feminist.
Speaker 1: I think the narrative I would put is leans heavily
Speaker 1: into a lot of feminist shows. Specifically, if you're looking
Speaker 1: at the wich is an evil entity in America. Okay, great, Absolutely,
Speaker 1: this film is absolutely about toxic masculinity. He said that
Speaker 1: he sort of stumbled upon that as they were writing,
Speaker 1: so not his agenda in starting the project. He saw
Speaker 1: his brother brought him the story, a real story of
Speaker 1: two men who were like abandoned or something in a lighthouse,
Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, that's an interesting story.
Speaker 2: It's called the Smalls Lighthouse Tragedy. It's a real story
Speaker 2: of an accident that happened at a lighthouse in Wales,
Speaker 2: which I found very interesting. And it was partly inspired
Speaker 2: by the Edgar Allan Poe short story of the same
Speaker 2: name that he never got to finish before he died.
Speaker 2: So he started it like months before death, and then
Speaker 2: and yeah, and then die.
Speaker 1: I love say, I love that Edgars is so into
Speaker 1: historical village. He's such a nerd uh. And then there's
Speaker 1: something I really appreciate and vibe with, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I Greyl and Poe didn't get to finished. I want
Speaker 1: to do a horror in a lighthouse. I wouldn't need
Speaker 1: turned to that as inspiration. That's beautiful. So he was
Speaker 1: like as we're rioting, and if you're dealing with two
Speaker 1: guys who are isolated in a job that is considered
Speaker 1: rather masculine but also requires a lot of feminine tasks, Yep.
Speaker 2: All placed on Robert Pattins's character.
Speaker 1: Because he's the young and new one and less experienced one,
Speaker 1: and therefore is considered the lesser of the men, and
Speaker 1: so he's forced to do women's work, which he finds
Speaker 1: extremely degrading and keeps bringing it up. And then he
Speaker 1: has a reaction like I think many a woman has
Speaker 1: had in her life for someone's like, oh this isn't
Speaker 1: done well. He was like, bitch, what do you I
Speaker 1: have scrubb Queen's maid could come here and not do
Speaker 1: as good a job as I had you. Oh, he
Speaker 1: was angry, he was upset. And because of that you
Speaker 1: get like you do start like stripping away women as
Speaker 1: Alia dog. Yes, yes, the stripping women away. It totally
Speaker 1: is Carmen, And there's like there's it's just such an
Speaker 1: interesting way to explore like what is masculinity? Right? And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times when people try to
Speaker 1: explore toxic masculinity, what you're doing is you're looking at
Speaker 1: the end result of it, which is to say, oh,
Speaker 1: violence against women is like the root of toxic but
Speaker 1: really it's like the root of toxic masculinity is an
Speaker 1: insecurity in men, right, Like it's it's your own insecurities
Speaker 1: of what it means to be a man. These unfair
Speaker 1: societal pressures and been created to put on other men
Speaker 1: of like what does it mean to be a man?
Speaker 1: And throughout the film you get a back and forth
Speaker 1: exchange of that. Okay, so you have younger guy comes
Speaker 1: saying clearly you're inferior. Okay, but I'm physically stronger than
Speaker 1: you are a man, I'm superior. Okay. Well I have more
Speaker 1: experience and I'm more intelligent than you, but I'm more
Speaker 1: modern and I'm more adept at working in these situations. Okay,
Speaker 1: but it's literally my lighthouse line and your boss. I
Speaker 1: have more experience than you. I'm on top. Okay, but
Speaker 1: I could Okay, And then you get a twist, so
Speaker 1: we've run out of things to top each other with.
Speaker 1: So now it's yeah, and I'm lonely and I hate
Speaker 1: this place, and this place is so hard. Now I'm
Speaker 1: codependent on you and I have and Okay, so we're
Speaker 1: sparking up a friendship, but we can only bond.
Speaker 2: Each other while we're drunk and dancing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we only bond with each other through being super drunk,
Speaker 1: through fighting, and once we reach the depths of that,
Speaker 1: our repression comes out. You know, we're repressed. We're not
Speaker 1: He's not even supposed to masturbate, like, which is crazy.
Speaker 1: It's like, bro, we're alone on an island with no
Speaker 1: TV and apparently enough books, books and teens. Day would
Speaker 1: have been a dream for me. Women would have nailed this.
Speaker 1: I just want to say, if women had been had
Speaker 1: just been women at the Lighthouse, this is a very
Speaker 1: different movie. Last Yeah, totally. It's just quiet and there
Speaker 1: are no men, and it's scenic and beautiful and it's
Speaker 1: gonna storm tonight. I have books and good food. We
Speaker 1: can go.
Speaker 2: We're good.
Speaker 1: We're truly living a blessed life. About your coachy sweater weather,
Speaker 1: stop it. I'm fine. The only thing I'm worried about
Speaker 1: is cleanliness, and we can figure it out. So yeah,
Speaker 1: So I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on both
Speaker 1: the way masculinity is portrayed throughout the film and also
Speaker 1: the way these two specific performers sort of go back
Speaker 1: and forth in there, like it's a really interesting pairing
Speaker 1: Robert Pattinson and Willem Dafoe. Willem Dafoe is, you know,
Speaker 1: known for doing these big, over the top characters. She's
Speaker 1: got this incredible thing, and Robert has, you know, post
Speaker 1: Twilight has been very interesting and sort of the same
Speaker 1: way that Daniel Bradcliffe has been on choosing weird roles
Speaker 1: that just speak to and challenge, and he's not even
Speaker 1: afraid of going into something like a Batman a blockbuster
Speaker 1: as long as he can be weird about it. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'll be there. And so to allow these two really
Speaker 1: incredible performers to be at the peak of weird talking
Speaker 1: about masculinity like, I just think it's a stroke of brilliance.
Speaker 1: How did it touch you?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And it's interesting too because they both personally reached out
Speaker 2: to Robert Eggers after they saw The Witch and told
Speaker 2: Robert Eggers that they wanted to be involved in his
Speaker 2: next project.
Speaker 1: Robert, what a dream? What a yeah, right, what a
Speaker 1: dream to get these too? Yeah?
Speaker 2: What a dream to get these two big names in
Speaker 2: Hollywood for your next film that are just like down
Speaker 2: for whatever and super excited to work on your next project.
Speaker 2: You know, I want to tie back the conversation of
Speaker 2: toxic masculinity. And I don't know if this exactly answers
Speaker 2: the question, but the subject of toxic masculinity being like
Speaker 2: the centerpiece of the movie, I think it ties in
Speaker 2: also into how men, just like we were also talking
Speaker 2: about it at the top, how men don't like horror
Speaker 2: movies is because not only because they don't like to
Speaker 2: feel afraid, but feeling afraid is something that I think
Speaker 2: challenges a lot of men's masculinity in a way that
Speaker 2: they're not comfortable with. And I'm not calling anyone out,
Speaker 2: you know, but.
Speaker 1: No, but I think that's fair.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I you know, another thing I wanted to
Speaker 2: add to that too, is like all of my gay
Speaker 2: male friends love horror.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's so true.
Speaker 2: And it's I think because they are not tied to
Speaker 2: masculinity in the same way is that, you know, sis,
Speaker 2: straight men are tied to masculinity.
Speaker 1: They're not asked to perform the ideology of masculinity exact way,
Speaker 1: so our community sort of allows them to you feel
Speaker 1: how you feel, Okay, wow, Okay, go on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So in the movie, I just think that
Speaker 2: they do such a great job, you know, with monologuing
Speaker 2: each other and and kind of you can with each
Speaker 2: thing that Willem Dafoe's character says to Robert Pattins's character,
Speaker 2: you can just see in Robert Pattens's face, like how
Speaker 2: annoyed he's getting with Willem Dafoe, and that tension is
Speaker 2: just slowly and slowly building until they finally, you know,
Speaker 2: have this huge fight which is also during a storm,
Speaker 2: which I think is also a really perfect like symbolism
Speaker 2: of kind of of the anger that men can like
Speaker 2: hold up inside of themselves. It can be very destructive
Speaker 2: and it literally, if I'm not mistaken, it destroys the
Speaker 2: how you know, it destroys where they're where they're staying.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of like symbolism in the movie
Speaker 2: I find with that and and toxic masculinity, I agree.
Speaker 1: When we come back, we're going to talk about the
Speaker 1: black and white, the aspect ratio, and what does the
Speaker 1: lighthouse mean? What's happening up there? Is it is it real?
Speaker 1: Is it magic? What what's going on?
Speaker 2: Is it dreams?
Speaker 1: Is it dreams? We'll be right back. Okay, and we're
Speaker 1: back all right. So we've been talking about the ways
Speaker 1: toxic masculinity are explored throughout the film. I want to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the visual imagery and work
Speaker 1: our way back to this idea. So yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it was an inspired choice to shoot in this aspect ratio.
Speaker 1: It's almost a perfect square. It did make projecting it difficult.
Speaker 1: You had to have a screen of a certain size
Speaker 1: in order to shoot it.
Speaker 2: And I'm also curious what the IMAX experience would have
Speaker 2: been like with this movie.
Speaker 1: I saw it in an Imax projection. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: that was an IMAX projected theater. My screening it, the
Speaker 1: screenings at any film festival, but especially one OF's large
Speaker 1: at TIFF is like one of the five Oscar qualifiers. Immaculate,
Speaker 1: like really really gorgeous, deep deep blacks, like stunning, stunning visually,
Speaker 1: and they, you know, found a way to I think
Speaker 1: they used the classic Kurrasawa I believe. I remember reading
Speaker 1: that effect of putting ink in water to make rain
Speaker 1: pop in a black and white film, right, because the
Speaker 1: rain is gorgeous in it. But it's hard to shoot
Speaker 1: rain in black and white because it just kind of
Speaker 1: looks grainy, so you really have to give it a
Speaker 1: different saturation of color. And this really pushes Eggeries as
Speaker 1: a director to shoot in black and white. It's not
Speaker 1: for those of you unfamiliar with like filming processes. The
Speaker 1: best way to explain this is to encourage you to
Speaker 1: look up with picture of the set of the Monsters
Speaker 1: from the nineteen sixties. It is pastel as hell.
Speaker 2: It is light the Monsters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you look at the Monsters set photos
Speaker 1: from the sixties and seventies, so the Monsters were shot
Speaker 1: in black and white, but their set is almost pestel.
Speaker 1: You can also do this with looking at old black
Speaker 1: and white makeup tests. In color women wore green lipstick
Speaker 1: to appear red on screen, So you have to be
Speaker 1: so in your bag on your color theory to shoot
Speaker 1: in black and white. Well, it is a challenge a
Speaker 1: lot of directors get excited about, but it's difficult to
Speaker 1: pull off. I thought Eggers did a really great job
Speaker 1: of finding like such a great balance. Everything is very visible,
Speaker 1: the contrasts are like really strong. This is very technically
Speaker 1: difficult work to do, and I thought it was beautiful.
Speaker 1: And the square framing of the film highlights the claustrophobia
Speaker 1: in such a way that it like, I have a
Speaker 1: fear of claustrophobia. I don't like being in small or
Speaker 1: tight spaces. And I think by like, there was a
Speaker 1: there's a shot where Robert is up in the lighthouse
Speaker 1: obviously not touching the light yet because he's not alive,
Speaker 1: and Dafoe is climbing up the ladder, and uh, it's
Speaker 1: two separate shots. So one shot of Dafoe looking down
Speaker 1: on him, Robert is standing above him. At this point
Speaker 1: in the film is still pretty early. I would say
Speaker 1: the film is divided almost into two parts. It's or
Speaker 1: maybe three. It's like his early arrival, and then you
Speaker 1: get this time when they're sort of bonded to the
Speaker 1: time he's supposed to leave, and then you get off
Speaker 1: full hour, which is insane. It's so much time between
Speaker 1: the time he's supposed to leave and doesn't get picked
Speaker 1: up to the end. And that's where really the downward
Speaker 1: spiral just goes completely out of control. So in this shot,
Speaker 1: these two solo shots, you're bouncing back and forth, and
Speaker 1: the eye line is diagonal, it's across the frame. When
Speaker 1: you're cutting between the two of them. They feel like
Speaker 1: they're standing like Robert is standing on top of Defot's shoulders,
Speaker 1: almost because there's such a tight frame that when you
Speaker 1: have someone looking across and down, it like shoots their
Speaker 1: height way up visually, and it really makes you like again,
Speaker 1: it just cramps everything together and makes it so tight.
Speaker 1: You feel like you're in this lighthouse and there's literally
Speaker 1: zero reprieve. It never comes. You are always this tight
Speaker 1: and locked in. And I think shooting that way again
Speaker 1: technically difficult when you're used to having all of this space,
Speaker 1: you have a lot of them. You have to use
Speaker 1: a lot of economy of space to pull it off
Speaker 1: and make it look good. And so I think what
Speaker 1: really impresses me. I think sophomore films are such a
Speaker 1: challenge to pull off. And if you think, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: getting really theoretical here, and there's no proof of anything
Speaker 1: I'm about to say, so I feel free to disregard it.
Speaker 1: I think it's a very interesting subject for Egers to
Speaker 1: go from a film he's excited to have people call feminist.
Speaker 1: Being lauded as an extremely successful early director like this
Speaker 1: is huge. You could do one of two things. You
Speaker 1: could take on a great, big studio project, because I'm
Speaker 1: sure they were offered to him. You could repeat and
Speaker 1: lean into becoming a horror director, or you could turn
Speaker 1: your back on all that and say it was really
Speaker 1: important to me is telling stories I'm excited about period,
Speaker 1: and what excites me is writing my own stories. He
Speaker 1: stayed small when he could have. We've seen directors and
Speaker 1: that was really the era of these. Like if you
Speaker 1: think the guy that did Jurassic Park one hit Steven
Speaker 1: spielg wurds like I love you, He's like, great, I'll
Speaker 1: make I'll direct Jurassic Park. Next.
Speaker 2: I read that Robert Eggers was actually being offered lots
Speaker 2: of studio, big studio projects, but he was not interested
Speaker 2: in any of them, and instead his brother Max brought
Speaker 2: this story to him and that's when he really like
Speaker 2: piqued his interest. So he really is like a director
Speaker 2: who seems to choose things that he's passionate about or
Speaker 2: things that he's really interested in, versus what Hollywood wants
Speaker 2: him to do. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we saw that in that era, like with
Speaker 1: Gareth Edwards, who directed the new Directsic Park trilogy, was
Speaker 1: also offered Rogue one. Both of those films not as
Speaker 1: well received. But if you were a white man who
Speaker 1: had a successful indie film Rogue one, Yes, but he's
Speaker 1: replaced his director towards the end and they reshoot most
Speaker 1: of it right before it releases. Yeah, one is my
Speaker 1: favorite Star Wars film. But yeah, behind the scenes a
Speaker 1: lot of issues. And to be truthful and honest, it
Speaker 1: is very, very difficult to go for making an indie
Speaker 1: to doing a big studio project because so much more
Speaker 1: is required of you. There's so much more money, there's
Speaker 1: so much more pressure. Oftentimes you're now dealing with stars
Speaker 1: instead of actors who were just excited to work, and
Speaker 1: that comes with the whole other set of conditions. You
Speaker 1: need to know how to speak with and work with
Speaker 1: those people so that you both have their respect and
Speaker 1: their attention slash devotion. Like, it's a very hard it's
Speaker 1: much more political than people think to make a big
Speaker 1: studio film, and so like it makes sense to and
Speaker 1: who I think it takes a really big person, or
Speaker 1: it feels to me like it would take a really
Speaker 1: big person to turn down all of that money, all
Speaker 1: that opportunity, all of that praise to come do something small,
Speaker 1: but to and especially with your sophomore project to land
Speaker 1: that plane is really really difficult. I think he did
Speaker 1: a great job. He gets his brothers in space to
Speaker 1: work on his writing, which I love, and he comes
Speaker 1: up with this idea of like, okay, if we're if
Speaker 1: I'm turning my back on all of that, let me
Speaker 1: really examine what I'm turning like. I really think a
Speaker 1: lot of there's a lot of toxic masculinity. This is
Speaker 1: me too, Era, It's just lining up for me. And
Speaker 1: whether that's a bunch of coincidences or just how the
Speaker 1: universes were happening to unfold. In other words, all these
Speaker 1: things are around, and so of course you're comparing what's
Speaker 1: coming out of this film where you can't say for
Speaker 1: sure that this is what's Ineggar's heart is. He's working
Speaker 1: on it, but it was I think it came an
Speaker 1: interesting time for me as a viewer, I'll say, to
Speaker 1: be exploring all those things. It was really a felt
Speaker 1: uh difficult as a woman to get into this movie.
Speaker 1: At first, the farts are yes, this is a dirty.
Speaker 2: It really is. They really want you to be annoyed
Speaker 2: with Willem Dafoe and just like damn, this old man
Speaker 2: is so crotchety and disgusting, and he's really effective at that,
Speaker 2: you know. But at the same time he also there
Speaker 2: are times when he earns your respect just with his
Speaker 2: wisdom and like the knowledge that he has of being
Speaker 2: a seafarer somebody who lives on an isolated island, Like
Speaker 2: he knows what he's talking about. But he's also very,
Speaker 2: very hard to deal with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, here's another thing that's interesting. When you're doing two
Speaker 1: actors in a show like this, so there's there's no
Speaker 1: supporting castors. There's excuse me. There is a mermaid who's
Speaker 1: played by a woman who is here and she but
Speaker 1: she's not giving a lot of interaction, right, Like the
Speaker 1: thing she's almost all of her shots are like one shots.
Speaker 1: It's just her, you know, she's isolated, almost like these birds,
Speaker 1: until maybe she's pulled into it's like maybe Robert's hands
Speaker 1: are there or something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but in the sex scene, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, I loved that. The Twilight girlies it Robert's doing
Speaker 1: what in this movie? We'll be there and they were like,
Speaker 1: he is a masturbating a shirtless his asses out a
Speaker 1: little bit. Enjoy Listen. He's beautiful even when he's that filthy.
Speaker 1: I have many Okay, so one, you can smell Robert
Speaker 1: Egger's films, and that's something we're seeing a lot. It's
Speaker 1: things that people who've seen No Satu are already commenting
Speaker 1: on the fact that you can almost smell how dirty
Speaker 1: the film is. When Robert goes just throw the absolutely
Speaker 1: not this is a film my life. I've ever seen
Speaker 1: Aggers's film in forty I don't need to smell it.
Speaker 1: Oh gross. When Robert throws the shit over the side
Speaker 1: and it blows back up into his face, I was like,
Speaker 1: I was having such a hard time. But again, if
Speaker 1: we go back to this core idea of this is
Speaker 1: an exploration of masculinity and what it means to be
Speaker 1: an or what two men thinks it means to be
Speaker 1: a man, and they're going and their ideas are constantly
Speaker 1: a conflict in war with each other. Picking up on
Speaker 1: what you said about Defoe's performance, there are times where
Speaker 1: you're really not sure if this is a guy who's like,
Speaker 1: I need to put you through your paces because this
Speaker 1: is a difficult job and I've been here for a while,
Speaker 1: so screw you. I'm not doing all the story. If
Speaker 1: you're young, you can do it like get to work,
Speaker 1: or it is my intention to drive you literally mad
Speaker 1: because it's fun for me. Right, You cannot tell, and
Speaker 1: it feels like it changes from time to time, which
Speaker 1: is something I learned recently on American Psycho. Defoe in
Speaker 1: that film plays three different versions of his character, so
Speaker 1: they would have him do three takes. Right, So the
Speaker 1: first take it is like he believes everything that Christian
Speaker 1: Bale's character is saying, he doesn't believe anything, and the
Speaker 1: third take he doesn't know what to believe, and then
Speaker 1: they would mix up those takes, so you get a
Speaker 1: very confused, unsure off foot character. I have mixed feelings
Speaker 1: about that As somebody who studied directing, I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: a part of me is like, it feels disrespectful to
Speaker 1: the actor not to give them the space to make
Speaker 1: these choices to create a character. And anybody who's edited
Speaker 1: a film knows you can absolutely make beautiful or destroy
Speaker 1: a performance within an edit. I think they did a
Speaker 1: great job with it. In the end. It turned out
Speaker 1: to be a decision that works for the movie. But
Speaker 1: I imagine Edgar sort of gave him the space to
Speaker 1: make these choices and it works just as well here
Speaker 1: with somebody who is maybe all three of these things
Speaker 1: at different times. And that's also very legit for the character.
Speaker 1: It makes everything Robert gets to do like you are
Speaker 1: so with him in this of like this guy is
Speaker 1: driving me creat When he lets him carry a barrel
Speaker 1: all the way up the spirals in your.
Speaker 2: Case and take it back down, He's.
Speaker 1: Like, catch your breath, Catch your breath, boy, Okay, I
Speaker 1: take that back downstairs. I would kill him right there.
Speaker 1: There'd be no in your sleep for me. I'd be like, well,
Speaker 1: you have to die, because that's like let's but to
Speaker 1: be fair, his next response is, if you don't want
Speaker 1: to set this whole lighthouse on fire, take that back
Speaker 1: down if it's not safe. But why did you let
Speaker 1: me get my ass all the way up here, old man,
Speaker 1: just to teach me a lesson. It's like it's infuriating.
Speaker 2: And it does make you think it that is like
Speaker 2: his goal is to like either teach a lesson, drive
Speaker 2: him insane, or or or just have fun with tormenting
Speaker 2: this poor guy. I wanted to say too, just to
Speaker 2: your point about like if Robert Eggar, if Robert Eggers
Speaker 2: gave Willem Dafoe the space to make that decision. I
Speaker 2: really think he did, because I get the impression just
Speaker 2: from an interview I watched about the lighthouse that I
Speaker 2: think Robert Eggers takes the opinion of his actors to heart.
Speaker 2: Like there is a moment in the interview where he
Speaker 2: talks about the first lighthouse that they scouted for the
Speaker 2: movie was the one that they had decided on, and
Speaker 2: they took the actors the crew there and the actress
Speaker 2: who plays the mermaid, her name is Valeria Karaman, She's Russian,
Speaker 2: and she immediately said, what is this ugly Soviet bullshit?
Speaker 2: You know, like, what is this horrible mids It was
Speaker 2: a mid century designed lighthouse, and that's when Robert Eggers
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, you know what, we can't use this
Speaker 2: because it's it's not right, and she didn't like it,
Speaker 2: So we're going to build our own lighthouse on this cape.
Speaker 2: So I think he does value and that's what I
Speaker 2: think is respectable in a directors, when they actually value
Speaker 2: the opinions of their talent and stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's a balance of trust that needs
Speaker 1: to be established, and not always, but sometimes it bodes
Speaker 1: well when actors frequently return with directors because you understand
Speaker 1: there's a sense of trust and relationship building there that
Speaker 1: brings them back and it makes you feel good. And
Speaker 1: by that I mean I work in this industry and
Speaker 1: I know how toxic and awful it can be. And
Speaker 1: so when there's ever a glimmer of hope that maybe
Speaker 1: this is a director that people, particularly women, seem to
Speaker 1: feel good and safe around and creatively free, like, that's
Speaker 1: always exciting. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the Light,
Speaker 1: which is something we've sort of speculated on at the
Speaker 1: beginning of this episode. At first, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a metaphor for when I'm being in my
Speaker 1: most base instinct. Okay, this is a metaphor for a woman.
Speaker 1: It's this thing that they long for that they can't see.
Speaker 1: But then it's like, no, this is our responsibility and
Speaker 1: without women. Okay again, if you're going along the American
Speaker 1: idealized idea of like what a man is this whole
Speaker 1: like Cowboy, rugged, independent, A key factor, a high key factor.
Speaker 1: If you've been watching Cross on Amazon, they talk about
Speaker 1: this a lot, or like, really exploit this idea. If
Speaker 1: you're a man, you're supposed to be a savior or
Speaker 1: a hero or a protector or at the very least
Speaker 1: a provider. At the very least, your responsibility is to
Speaker 1: financially and with like care and taking of the land.
Speaker 1: That is your responsibility. That is the thing that defines
Speaker 1: you as a man. And if there are no women
Speaker 1: to protect, but you have this lighthouse, this responsibility of
Speaker 1: like protecting your fellow man. But it's so offhands right,
Speaker 1: Like you're not actively in it with your fellow man.
Speaker 1: You're literally separated from and from a distance supposed to
Speaker 1: be trying to help them. It's like, so, okay, so
Speaker 1: is the light this idea of their But then they
Speaker 1: literally become like consumed and obsessed over this thing, and
Speaker 1: you think, okay, well maybe that's about like greed.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: He's like, I want to take care of les, like
Speaker 1: it's my responsibility. You're not their young buck, I can
Speaker 1: slow your role. He's like, no, okay. Maybe it's a
Speaker 1: metaphor for like when do you lose your manhood? Like
Speaker 1: Willumdafoe's aging, he's older, is he going to age out
Speaker 1: of this job? And what will he do once it happens.
Speaker 1: Robert's trying to make his way, He's trying to get
Speaker 1: enough money to support himself and build this house and
Speaker 1: starts to fan like they're at they're both trying to
Speaker 1: use this pinnacle and they understand inherently one thing that
Speaker 1: they can't do it together, and is that the light.
Speaker 1: I have a lot of maybe the light changes, what
Speaker 1: does it mean for you? How does it come off
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: You know, I hadn't thought about it like that, but
Speaker 2: I like the idea that the lighthouse is this symbol
Speaker 2: of a woman. And you could even if we're if
Speaker 2: we're going with that analogy, you could even say the
Speaker 2: conflict they have of like, well, when am I going
Speaker 2: to take care of the lighthouse? Is sort of like
Speaker 2: is like when two men are are fighting over a woman,
Speaker 2: you know, and and who gets to be the one
Speaker 2: that cares for and looks after this woman? And you
Speaker 2: can really tell with Robert Pattens through Robert Pattenson's character,
Speaker 2: that is something that he's really consumed with with his
Speaker 2: little soap carving of a mermaid, his dream dreams or
Speaker 2: actual encounters with the mermaid. Who knows what's actually happening there,
Speaker 2: but he is really consumed with this idea of a
Speaker 2: woman when there are no women around, So I think
Speaker 2: it could. I think the analogy of the lighthouse being
Speaker 2: a woman does work for me, But I think it
Speaker 2: could also be fluid in the sense that it at
Speaker 2: different times means different things. But the fact that Willem
Speaker 2: Dafoe like gets naked and like goes up there and
Speaker 2: you know, bathes in the light feels very much like
Speaker 2: you know, a guy like going to a strip club
Speaker 2: and like, you know, enjoying the entertainment of women and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. So I think it's an interesting analogy
Speaker 2: to look at it that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love the Again, the nebulousness of it has
Speaker 1: got the uh two thousand and one Space Odyssey vibes
Speaker 1: of like, who is how supposed to like represent or be?
Speaker 1: You know, is how your own enterdemon is. The outreach
Speaker 1: of man trying to explore beyond this whole earth that
Speaker 1: we've been given is a you know more about I
Speaker 1: don't want to break down this movie. I'm sorry, we're
Speaker 1: on the Lighthouse, but that's the idea of just just
Speaker 1: to compare it as a cosmic horror, This idea of
Speaker 1: the unknown and the desire that you can't reach is
Speaker 1: so fascinating, and we talked a lot in The Witch
Speaker 1: about vibes in tone, and this film starts off in
Speaker 1: a fog of cloudy haze, like it's really trying to
Speaker 1: sell you on the idea of not being able to
Speaker 1: see what's directly in front of you. And I think
Speaker 1: that's really interesting because what these two guys are never
Speaker 1: able to do is find a real partnership, right Like
Speaker 1: you're really what's supposed to be happening here is your
Speaker 1: two dudes who are running a lighthouse. This shouldn't be
Speaker 1: that complicate. There's enough food, there's enough drink, there's enough
Speaker 1: jobs for everyone to be doing. But immediately Defoe is like,
Speaker 1: I need to be on top, And immediately Robert's character
Speaker 1: is coming from a place of I need to establish
Speaker 1: myself here in order to go back and make more money,
Speaker 1: like he's he's formally like a logger. They're both coming
Speaker 1: off with some pretty traumatic experiences and neither can give
Speaker 1: each other the space to sort of be their own person.
Speaker 1: There is this need to be the most dominant figure
Speaker 1: in the space.
Speaker 2: And Robert Pattinson's character is also lying about who he
Speaker 2: really is true, and he takes over the place of
Speaker 2: the real Frahim Winslow and pretends to be Frahim Winslow,
Speaker 2: which I think is what also kind of maybe is
Speaker 2: part of because he is trying to conceal something about himself,
Speaker 2: he's unable to actually connect and be genuine and authentic
Speaker 2: with Willem Dafoe's character. Oh man, does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's definitely. That's definitely was my takeaway as well.
Speaker 1: When we come back, we're gonna talk about the Dollhouse
Speaker 1: and what that means to Eggers and how it impacts
Speaker 1: this film. So stay tuned. Okay, we're back. Last week
Speaker 1: we talked about the Dollhouse. Edgers when he was designing films, right,
Speaker 1: he has a background in production design, that's sort of
Speaker 1: what he was studying in college. He goes on to
Speaker 1: become a filmmaker and when he's staging his films in
Speaker 1: his head and he's writing the scripts. Eggers gave a
Speaker 1: long talk where he was explaining that his films are
Speaker 1: overwritten because he writes them for himself and he wants
Speaker 1: investors and producers and everyone involved to understand what the
Speaker 1: tonality is because they're so reliant on nailing that. So
Speaker 1: part of that is building literally a dollhouse where he's
Speaker 1: sketching out like what happens in each moment, and then
Speaker 1: he was saying that it's really his goal to walk
Speaker 1: people through that dollhouse in his film. The opening of
Speaker 1: his film come off off the foggy water, and then
Speaker 1: it's a slow walk through the lighthouse and exploration of
Speaker 1: this whole space. It is both. I think it's like
Speaker 1: two and a half to three minutes something in there
Speaker 1: of just scenery and looking around. It builds a creep factor,
Speaker 1: to be sure. But what I think it does more
Speaker 1: than that is imbue you to this space as like
Speaker 1: a setting. That's a really poor way of saying it,
Speaker 1: but I just rewatched Young Frankenstein and the Lutro credits.
Speaker 1: It's a great fucking movie. And the introduction of that
Speaker 1: film is classic, right. It's the old world. It's inspired
Speaker 1: by the films of the thirties. In fact, the entire
Speaker 1: set comes from a production designer in the thirties who
Speaker 1: they went to his house and they were like, hey,
Speaker 1: can you tell us how to make this stuff? He's like,
Speaker 1: I actually have all of it in my garage. If
Speaker 1: you want it, you can just piece together and make
Speaker 1: your own set out of all these old set pieces
Speaker 1: I have. I think it was the original Frankenstein film
Speaker 1: that this guy did, and they just took all that
Speaker 1: stuff and read right, reset it up here, which is
Speaker 1: very cool. But the opening of that film is just
Speaker 1: the castle. It's the castle. It's cracks of lightning and
Speaker 1: credits and what it's like. Okay, so you're in this
Speaker 1: old world caped place. You see there's some lights. It
Speaker 1: gets your brain thinking. And we talked a lot about
Speaker 1: this last week as well, the three aspects of Edgar's films.
Speaker 1: I really think that just pacing the floorboards allows you
Speaker 1: to think, how would I survive in this situation? And
Speaker 1: again not a life or desk situation, but I'm isolated.
Speaker 1: It's kind of beautiful. It's a little creepy though, it's
Speaker 1: all like washed out. It's but it seems scenicd but
Speaker 1: it's also what if I get hurt? Who would come?
Speaker 1: How would you get here? It's so isolated and allowing
Speaker 1: you to sort of sink in and settle into that
Speaker 1: space before you meet your main characters. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: putting your setting first. It's saying the story couldn't happen anywhere,
Speaker 1: but here. I think it elevates and makes special everything
Speaker 1: you're about to see because it's like in a mooge
Speaker 1: booth bosh. I don't speak the language. I'm sure I'm
Speaker 1: not French. Likely a palate cleanser.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, it really is. And then that first
Speaker 2: shot that we get of Robert Pattenson and Willem Dafoe
Speaker 2: standing next to each other with all their stuff, it's
Speaker 2: just like they just look they just look so grim
Speaker 2: and like like, why the fuck are we here? You know,
Speaker 2: they just don't look happy. They don't look happy. So
Speaker 2: it really also sets the tone.
Speaker 1: It does. It's yeah, it's it's a hell of a movie.
Speaker 1: I guess we should talk about the ending now. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: so we spent this whole movie watching these two men
Speaker 1: try to one up each other. There is a power
Speaker 1: struggle and it yeah, really I kept going backwards and
Speaker 1: forwards in the last maybe half hour to track the
Speaker 1: exchange of power, and there's I mean literally, if you
Speaker 1: were to just rewind and fast forward through this part
Speaker 1: like I did, it's every two minutes, every three to
Speaker 1: five minutes, and what is changing is not always clear.
Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about it earlier. My
Speaker 1: big takeaway from watching this film initially was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's strange. How if there's only two people in a room,
Speaker 1: you will become what you need to each other. Maybe
Speaker 1: not in a healthy way, but at some point they're
Speaker 1: parenting each other. At some point, they're brothers, at some point,
Speaker 1: they're coworkers, at some point their families, at some point
Speaker 1: their potential lovers. Like they're going through every possible relationship
Speaker 1: you could have with a person through this time frame.
Speaker 1: And if that's the case, then what your characters are
Speaker 1: left with is really they're fighting themselves and their entertainments,
Speaker 1: which again is the core in space of where masculinity,
Speaker 1: any kind of insecurity lives. And it builds to a
Speaker 1: point where Defoe's character is reduced to a dog and
Speaker 1: Pattenson's character is his owner. It is somewhat bondage puppy
Speaker 1: play maybe, but also just a complete psychotic break and
Speaker 1: instead of you know, you might you would expect an
Speaker 1: unwell person to maybe like beat the dog or to
Speaker 1: shun and like abandon the dog. Maybe again an unwell
Speaker 1: person take the dog out and like shoot it. But
Speaker 1: what he does is he buries it alive. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: what what does this this meaning ending mean to you?
Speaker 1: And also if if this is a film about toxic masculine,
Speaker 1: what do you think Edgar's takeaway is with this this
Speaker 1: part of the conclusion it's a conclusion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I don't even know if I have
Speaker 2: like a fully formed idea yet of what it means
Speaker 2: to me. But I will say the first time I
Speaker 2: watched it, I was like, what the hell is happening?
Speaker 2: What in the hell? Where did how did we get
Speaker 2: to this? But then you do go there is an
Speaker 2: escalation that gets us to that point, and I think,
Speaker 2: you know, I think maybe burying him alive might be
Speaker 2: a symbolism of like him Robert Pattinson's character, burying his shame,
Speaker 2: burying his you know, inadequacyes, those kinds of things. But
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I have like a fully
Speaker 2: formed idea of what exactly it means yet. You know,
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna have to watch it a few
Speaker 2: more times to really kind of understand it, especially after
Speaker 2: this conversation, because you've really kind of given me a
Speaker 2: new light on on the movie. But yeah, I think,
Speaker 2: if anything, he feels ashamed about a lot of things,
Speaker 2: replacing the actual Frahim winslow lying doing all of this
Speaker 2: like power dynamic stuff, and then it evolves into a
Speaker 2: very homo erotic direction where he is really more attracted
Speaker 2: to women, or supposed to be attracted to women. There
Speaker 2: could be like a bevarying of shame going on there.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, I.
Speaker 1: Really like that read. I want to bring up. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to see if HBO will let me share this
Speaker 1: audio because I think the final speech.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Edgars is.
Speaker 1: A prolific Shakespeare scholar, studied in school at the collegiate level,
Speaker 1: like really really loves Shakespeare. Talked a lot about his
Speaker 1: love of Shakespeare when he was doing The Witch. And
Speaker 1: I think because this movie is predominantly monologues between men
Speaker 1: swinging erratically between emotions, no states of being can really
Speaker 1: get to embrace that idea. And because you're also dealing
Speaker 1: with death and sort of this operatic level of power,
Speaker 1: it works well. And so I just want to play
Speaker 1: a little bit of the speech that Defoe is as
Speaker 1: he's being buried alive.
Speaker 3: Shut up all all ship breastwork, oh right, aproaching arm
Speaker 3: sway him up from men's minds and men and heart
Speaker 3: Promathian plunder stoking eyes with divine shames and horror.
Speaker 2: I'm casting them.
Speaker 1: Down to David jonas he others.
Speaker 4: Stay mind yet in it see oh, the divine passion,
Speaker 4: the fedders green scent, where no man suffered, what toil is.
Speaker 1: Actually flab.
Speaker 3: Dot changing.
Speaker 4: Yes, the sha who gurdles round the globe.
Speaker 3: That's true, go Mesh.
Speaker 2: Very Shakespearean in the sense that I had to google
Speaker 2: a lot of those phrases to actually understand what the
Speaker 2: hell any of it meant.
Speaker 1: I know Davy Jones, but yeah, I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: so sent to Davy Jones is thrown undersea. To me,
Speaker 1: the I was just looking. I actually was in the
Speaker 1: process of looking at Philler's Greeds Afterlife, where there is
Speaker 1: prepa mirth okay, a filler never stops playing, and dancers
Speaker 1: you never tire, okay. So talking about being sent to
Speaker 1: the afterlife. But to me rewatching that scene and re
Speaker 1: listening to the speech now and having had this conversation
Speaker 1: with you, I do wonder if this is about And
Speaker 1: again I don't think Eggars is so literal. I think
Speaker 1: his films are open enough to leave it to your interpretation,
Speaker 1: which is to me one of the best forms of art.
Speaker 1: I really like art that is specific enough that it
Speaker 1: becomes universal. This is a really hard element to achieve.
Speaker 1: Oh God. Mir Kari, who's a Japanese fashion designer, talks
Speaker 1: a lot about this in their approach, which is essentially
Speaker 1: like the simpler, smaller, more unique you can be, the
Speaker 1: more universally people will understand, reflect and be able to
Speaker 1: attach to your artwork. That's a very broad way of
Speaker 1: explaining that, but I think Eggers were a lot of it.
Speaker 1: It's inside of that bubble. And because he's a director
Speaker 1: who doesn't talk too much about his work, he doesn't
Speaker 1: wind up cornering it into a very solid idea. And
Speaker 1: so what I get out of this scene is okay,
Speaker 1: if really like at this is patentson having quote one right.
Speaker 1: The masculinity race is one by the younger, more up
Speaker 1: and coming guy, and this is the old guy being
Speaker 1: accepting his end, accepting that he's no longer sort of
Speaker 1: a masculine dominant, accepting that it is his time to go. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but in a strangely in a merry way. And so
Speaker 1: I don't have to toil anymore. I don't have to
Speaker 1: work hard. I don't have to any longer adhere to
Speaker 1: these ideas of masculinity because I'm going to a place
Speaker 1: where that no longer matters and I can experience genuine
Speaker 1: joy I think I experience with him. Yeah, And I
Speaker 1: think that's a really interesting way, because you see in
Speaker 1: Patentson's performance that his character isn't getting any kind of
Speaker 1: joy out of this, even in the light at the end,
Speaker 1: which where we come to the second ending. Right, So
Speaker 1: the first ending is Defoe's character is literally buried alive,
Speaker 1: perhaps accepting that and being excited to leave this plane
Speaker 1: and don't have to deal with this bullshit anymore. Who
Speaker 1: couldn't identify Robert's Like, finally me and this light get
Speaker 1: to be together, and also I'm gonna burn this whole
Speaker 1: place down because I'm crazy, Okay, cool. So he gets
Speaker 1: up to the light and it sort of radiates and
Speaker 1: takes over everything, and this is sort of the final imagery.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the first the only color we see in the film,
Speaker 2: which I think is really fascinating too.
Speaker 1: Whenever the purple I think of purple hearts, right, like
Speaker 1: the idea of the wounded warrior, the fact that maybe
Speaker 1: no man gets out unscathed by the ideals of masculinity. Again,
Speaker 1: I don't think this is a film that's meant to
Speaker 1: say this is what it is to be a man.
Speaker 1: But it's a film interrogating the ideals of masculine and
Speaker 1: the way that they shape and harm the men who
Speaker 1: have to live under them, which is a profound and
Speaker 1: beautiful and weird and absolutely disgusting thing. You had. It
Speaker 1: was so so FROs but it worked on a lot
Speaker 1: of levels. This is a film that I don't know
Speaker 1: if I'll be visiting again soon, but that I have
Speaker 1: a deep appreciation for. Like I appreciate that everyone here
Speaker 1: was willing to be like weird and uncomfortable. I appreciate
Speaker 1: that this is a film that wanted to interrogate masculinity
Speaker 1: in a way that like Fight Club is similarly trying
Speaker 1: to explore this ideal masculinity, but unfortunately became cool and
Speaker 1: guys were like, yes, this is what I would have liked.
Speaker 1: It completely missed, like many people will miss the point.
Speaker 2: I don't think the light House will do that. I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: stay free of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah you may miss the point, but you won't be
Speaker 1: like I want to be like these guys.
Speaker 2: Right, I want to model myself after Yeah, I want to.
Speaker 1: Be as hot and Vicious's Brad pitt You know, none
Speaker 1: of that here, even though Pattinson is bringing the body,
Speaker 1: it's just it's not the same. And so I really
Speaker 1: appreciate that you love the space that I appreciate the
Speaker 1: odd ratio. I appreciate that he went back to working
Speaker 1: with animals despite having a terrible time working with him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and his first film, he really to mine Eyes has
Speaker 1: pushed himself as a director to get better and try
Speaker 1: new things and get out of his comfort zone. And
Speaker 1: I think that's where great art is made. What is
Speaker 1: the Lighthouse leave you with? And how likely are you
Speaker 1: to watch it again sometime soon?
Speaker 2: Well, this was the second time I watched it in
Speaker 2: one gear. I do think I want to go back
Speaker 2: and watch it again, maybe in the new year, and
Speaker 2: just to kind of again process everything that we talked about,
Speaker 2: because you know, on my first two watches, I was
Speaker 2: a little bit confused as to how what the ending meant,
Speaker 2: you know, but I still respected as like some as
Speaker 2: you said that something that can you can add your
Speaker 2: own interpretation to. I like the fact that he doesn't
Speaker 2: like lay it on thick in the sense like this
Speaker 2: is exactly what it's supposed to mean and that people
Speaker 2: can really add their own, you know, their own thoughts
Speaker 2: and beliefs into it and just kind of see their
Speaker 2: own reflection in it. But yeah, as a woman, it
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily particularly speak to me because I'm just like,
Speaker 2: you know, can can everybody stop being such guys about
Speaker 2: everything and just you know, actually talk and connect with
Speaker 2: each other and just chill. But you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: It's definitely one that I think probably leaves more men
Speaker 2: with like these thoughts of like, wow, what is my
Speaker 2: masculinity actually mean? And so I would be curious to
Speaker 2: get I would be curious. I tried to get my
Speaker 2: boyfriend to watch this one with me, and he wouldn't
Speaker 2: watch it with me because he was.
Speaker 1: Like, my boyfriend is not that scary. It's more trippy,
Speaker 1: even scary. Come.
Speaker 2: So I really want to get a man's read for
Speaker 2: how they feel about what men.
Speaker 1: Twice we have asked for your opinion, it probably won't
Speaker 1: happen again, so feel free to just really let us
Speaker 1: know how you feel about the horror movies and why,
Speaker 1: and specifically how you feel about this movie before we go.
Speaker 1: I just want to say with the black and white,
Speaker 1: I find it really interesting. I actually, while I was
Speaker 1: watching this, was really thinking about No Serratu, the story
Speaker 1: and what we have already, and I had to go
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, is it in black and white? Nos? Not,
Speaker 1: It's in color. But if you look at the images
Speaker 1: they've released so far, it is very heavily leaning into grayscale,
Speaker 1: which is a new and fun way. Like again, it's
Speaker 1: like living yeah, not that shitty filtered blue. Like it's
Speaker 1: very exciting to me to be like, oh, you're working
Speaker 1: mostly in black and white, gray scale in it within
Speaker 1: a color film. And then it seems to me to
Speaker 1: be really leaning into fire and light a sort of
Speaker 1: a contrast to that element. And if you watch The Northman,
Speaker 1: which you should because we're gonna cover it next week, Uh,
Speaker 1: they use the blue of the night sky and fire
Speaker 1: as contrasting points of visual color throughout that film in
Speaker 1: a resting way. I cannot wait to talk about The Northman.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: I really love this film, like kind of unapologetically and
Speaker 1: very much into it. This is another film that explores masculinity,
Speaker 1: but in a different kind of way, more in an
Speaker 1: inherited father to son way than a general societal pressure way.
Speaker 1: And also Anya's back in a very fun, different type
Speaker 1: of witchy role, so there can be a lot for
Speaker 1: us to break down in the Northmen.
Speaker 2: And it's the one ager's movie the guys on our
Speaker 2: on our team have watched.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Aaron, my peachy, that's gonna be exciting. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to say about the
Speaker 1: Lighthouse before we get out of here? No?
Speaker 2: I just love it and it really feels and I
Speaker 2: know that, you know, Lovecraft is a controversial figure, but
Speaker 2: I just I love the use of these there. What
Speaker 2: really captivated me the first time I watched it was
Speaker 2: the use of that ultraviolet kind of purple color, which
Speaker 2: is which is known to be kind of like a
Speaker 2: cosmic horror sort of color. I love the use of
Speaker 2: like the tentacles and all of these things that make
Speaker 2: you think like, is there some sort of like monster,
Speaker 2: Like is there some sort of like unseen monster going
Speaker 2: on here? Because it really adds to all of the
Speaker 2: mystique and the mystery surrounding the movie. So those are
Speaker 2: the things that I think I really enjoyed about. And
Speaker 2: of course the performances from Willem Dafoe and Robert Pattinson.
Speaker 2: Willem Dafoe really nailed. He really nailed his character and
Speaker 2: really might have.
Speaker 1: Been a missed opportunity for Oscars. Too disgusting for the Oscars.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'd love to go back and wait. Let's actually,
Speaker 1: let's see who were the If this movie comes out
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, then it's eligible for twenty twenty Oscars.
Speaker 1: Let's see twenty twenty eight Oscars. The other question, do
Speaker 1: you think he would have been best supporting or.
Speaker 2: Lead should have been made? I think Robert Pattinson felt
Speaker 2: more I know that he was kind of the main character,
Speaker 2: but Robert Patson felt more like a supporting character to
Speaker 2: Willem Dafoe's performances because his performances were so big and
Speaker 2: they were so like grand you know. It's funny Parasite
Speaker 2: won Best Picture that year and Joker had eleven nominations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a sad year. It's also the year
Speaker 1: of Jojo Rabbit, which initially I liked and then I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it.
Speaker 1: Marriage Story nine seventeen. Once upon a time, we were
Speaker 1: dealing with some great films and I'm not even gonna lie.
Speaker 1: I think was that the year? Oh god, what Best
Speaker 1: Supporting Actor?
Speaker 2: He didn't even get Best Director nomination? What the hell?
Speaker 1: Mm mmm, yeah, it was a strange year. No, to
Speaker 1: your point, Carmenate, don't think that there were any nominations
Speaker 1: for this film. Okay, Best Supporting Actor Brad pitt One
Speaker 1: from Once Point a Time in Hollywood is clipped booth.
Speaker 1: Tom Hanks was nominated for a Beautiful Day in the
Speaker 1: Neighborhood is Fred Rogers? Now, how is he Best Supporting Actor?
Speaker 1: Someone make it makes sense. He's a titular character. But
Speaker 1: oh my god. Anthony Hopkins was nominated for two Popes
Speaker 1: Appacino for The Irishman and Joe Peshy also for The Irishman.
Speaker 1: The Irishman. Yeah, I don't think anyone. Again, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure anybody would have voted for this. It's very disgusting.
Speaker 1: It's not an Oscar winner.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Oscars are not. As we know, the Oscars
Speaker 2: are not a barometer for what's actually good the culture.
Speaker 1: Necessarily, it gave a keen phoenix his Oscar for playing
Speaker 1: the Joker, which, okay, fine, listen, it's a solid performance
Speaker 1: in a shitty film. To me.
Speaker 2: It had one nomination. Oh they did win for Okay,
Speaker 2: it nominated for was nominated at the Oscars for Best Cinematography,
Speaker 2: which feels okay, Yeah, I mean that's good, but it
Speaker 2: still feels like I feel like Robert Eckers maybe deserved
Speaker 2: Best Director nomination at least.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's really getting a lot out of these actors.
Speaker 1: And it's an argument I would have heard, Wait a minute,
Speaker 1: Best Directors, Bonking home one for Parasite. He should have
Speaker 1: Sam Mendez nineteen seventeen. That film is a doozy to
Speaker 1: get through, really like emotionally impactful. I agree with that nomination.
Speaker 1: Tarantino for a Once upon a Time in Hollywood, Okay,
Speaker 1: Todd Philips for Joker Again, I say, okay, gets nominated.
Speaker 1: I could kick Todd or Tarantino out of this category
Speaker 1: to make room for Eggers in this I would absolutely
Speaker 1: hear that argument. I didn't think we're gonna get to
Speaker 1: Awards talk. But you know, there's a lot of this
Speaker 1: is again. I really admire the way it's strived to
Speaker 1: achieve and then accomplished a lot of what its drived
Speaker 1: to do. I think it is as disgusting as it
Speaker 1: is it's genuinely beautiful. I do think you're getting some
Speaker 1: truly great performances. The range these guys have to go through,
Speaker 1: the way they're pushing each other, supporting each other too,
Speaker 1: and no one is ever outperforming. They're only sort of
Speaker 1: bolstering each other's performances. The dialogue. I mean, really, someone
Speaker 1: give this man a script writing nod, because the language
Speaker 1: and the way we didn't talk too much about it
Speaker 1: today and we do have to go. But the language
Speaker 1: and the way he manipulates and authenticates language from the
Speaker 1: era in the same way that he's manuscripts and stuff
Speaker 1: to craft the language for it's the wish and use
Speaker 1: the actual words of children who felt they were possessed
Speaker 1: and gave it to his characters. Here he found a
Speaker 1: woman who broke down the lexicon of different dialects along
Speaker 1: the eastern coast of America, and he used her book
Speaker 1: to really to write his own lines. He feels iffy
Speaker 1: about taking the words of other people and putting it
Speaker 1: on characters. He's like he was trying to be respectful
Speaker 1: then he wasn't sure if it was or wasn't. I'm
Speaker 1: not really sure where I fall along that line, but
Speaker 1: I do love that he has put so much effort
Speaker 1: into bringing these languages to life. The you versus ye
Speaker 1: conversations like battle they have yees you ye. Yeah. It's
Speaker 1: magnetic and it exemplifies so much of like they're from
Speaker 1: different spaces, they had different trades like it really livens
Speaker 1: the characters, and there is something to be said for
Speaker 1: being able to write that dialogue and for people who've
Speaker 1: never heard it before to be able to understand it clearly,
Speaker 1: you know, not just in the addiction of the actors,
Speaker 1: but in these words for the most part makes sense.
Speaker 1: And if they don't, I can at least interpret from
Speaker 1: the performance what's happening. Yes, that happens a lot in Shakespeare.
Speaker 1: It's a difficult thing to pull off. I think he
Speaker 1: does beautifully, So yeah, I don't. Should we end by
Speaker 1: ranking the film?
Speaker 2: I still think The Witch remains my favorite, agree, but
Speaker 2: this would be my my close second for sure. Oh,
Speaker 2: to be completely transparent here, I have yet to watch
Speaker 2: The Northmen, I.
Speaker 1: Compose, Oh my God, imply.
Speaker 2: But I am going to watch it on Thanksgiving, so
Speaker 2: it is going to be my Thanksgiving watch.
Speaker 1: Okay, I can't wait to hear your thoughts. I think
Speaker 1: I'm with you right now. Since we haven't reviewed The Northmen,
Speaker 1: I will keep it based off of these two. The
Speaker 1: Witch wins slightly ahead.
Speaker 3: For me.
Speaker 1: I think the tension in this is oftentimes as as
Speaker 1: good as the Witch. But to me, the little spaces
Speaker 1: in between the Witch are not as laborious, and by
Speaker 1: that I mean ye beats and I can understand more
Speaker 1: innately myself, like the looks between the parents and the
Speaker 1: looks between the kids, like there's something more happening there
Speaker 1: than for me, Like sometimes we're just looking at like
Speaker 1: house equipment for like thirteen seconds, You're like, oh, Robert,
Speaker 1: what what are we doing here? To the next thing? Please,
Speaker 1: for the love of God. But again, Boody Tony fun
Speaker 1: gets under your skin. Performance is so dynamic you can't
Speaker 1: look away from the scream. A solid film and definitely
Speaker 1: we're checking out. If you somehow got through this podcast
Speaker 1: and have never watched a film and you weren't sure
Speaker 1: about it, I highly suggest watching it. It is not
Speaker 1: very scary. It does sort of mess with your brain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's good. Carmen, we did it. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much again for being here. This was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: I cannot wait for our next one.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: Thank y'all, So thank you guys for listening. You can
Speaker 1: join us back here tomorrow as we have our first
Speaker 1: roundtable with They Had It Coming, an episode where we
Speaker 1: discussed our favorite deserves death from film and television. That
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, A book is us our next guide of
Speaker 1: Dude Prophecy. Thursday, we're looking back at our favorite video
Speaker 1: games of twenty twenty four. I didn't play many, but
Speaker 1: I'm excited to hear what y'all loved. Thinking him back
Speaker 1: on Monday, where Carmen and are going to break down
Speaker 1: Egger's most recent film, The Norseman. That's the episode. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening, Bye y'all. X ray Vision is hosted by
Speaker 1: Jason N.
Speaker 5: Supsion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our
Speaker 5: supervising producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen
Speaker 5: Laurent and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 5: Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman
Speaker 5: and Heidi on Disco Moderata