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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the

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Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through

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Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and

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Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is

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Speaker 1: so great to have you here, back for another episode

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Speaker 1: as we of course break down the psychology of our twenties.

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Speaker 1: Today's conversation is one that I've been wanting to have

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Speaker 1: for a very long time because if there is something

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Speaker 1: I would say all of us, if not a lot

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Speaker 1: of us, struggle with in our twenties, it is this

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Speaker 1: constant cycle of trying to become better, trying to break patterns,

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Speaker 1: trying to stop doing things we know we shouldn't be doing,

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Speaker 1: and just somehow always ending back where we started, whether

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Speaker 1: it is procrastination, whether it is phone addiction, vaping, drinking.

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Speaker 1: I think we've all had a moment. I've definitely had

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Speaker 1: a moment where I've been like, this is the last

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Speaker 1: time I'm ever doing this. I'm quitting, I'm done. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to become this discipline, motivated person and it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. I don't think the problem is with us,

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Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, I think the problem is that

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Speaker 1: we actually misunderstand the psychology behind why and how change

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Speaker 1: actually works. So today we are going to do a

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Speaker 1: deep dive into the science and the psychology behind changing

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Speaker 1: bad habits. Not like a surface level plan. We're going

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Speaker 1: to go beyond discipline. We're going to go beyond the

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Speaker 1: basic advice and really get into it. And we are

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Speaker 1: bringing on a special guest for this episode. She is

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Speaker 1: a Harvard trained behavioral scientist. She specializes in studying how

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Speaker 1: change works. She's a managing director at BCG. She's the

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Speaker 1: founder of the BCG Behavioral Song Science Lab. This woman

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Speaker 1: basically spends her entire day systematically breaking down human behavior.

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Speaker 1: She's also done some amazing TED talks, some of which

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Speaker 1: have been viewed over eight million times. She's written books,

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Speaker 1: she has a new book coming out, She's written for

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Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review, Forbes. There's just so much that she's done.

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Speaker 1: And she is a fellow Australian Julia Dhart. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the Psychology of.

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Speaker 2: Your twenties, Jaman, Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited. Well, okay, I'm going to I always

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Speaker 1: do this. Why I just jump into a question. The

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Speaker 1: first question I need to ask her is who are you?

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? I

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Speaker 1: know I did like the resume run down, but in

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Speaker 1: your own words, who are you?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know exactly where I'm from now, and now

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Speaker 2: so do your viewers and listeners. I grew up in

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Speaker 2: Australia and one of the important things to know about

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Speaker 2: me is after I was born in Byron Bay and

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Speaker 2: then moved to Canberra, I became a debater. I was

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Speaker 2: a debate kid, and so you might know this. But

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Speaker 2: for anyone who doesn't think about competitive debate, as we

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Speaker 2: have a big topic or a big question on the table,

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Speaker 2: there are two sides to the issue. One team talks

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Speaker 2: for it, one team speaks against it, and you go

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Speaker 2: back and forth exchanging these ideas. And I share that

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Speaker 2: as a starting point to say that's when I became

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Speaker 2: I think that was the first moment where I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: different people are different. Like often people believe really profoundly

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Speaker 2: different things will behave totally differently in response to the

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Speaker 2: same information. And I think that starting point in new

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Speaker 2: lots of classrooms in Australia actually got me thinking about

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Speaker 2: who are we really as people? Like what do we want?

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Speaker 2: What do we want to be?

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting and so like from when you were

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Speaker 1: a teenager, you were like, human behavior is just so

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Speaker 1: fascinating to me? Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so one of the ways we say it

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Speaker 2: is different people are different. But another way to say

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Speaker 2: it is other people are so weird. Everyone else is

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Speaker 2: so strange. And the more you say but it might

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Speaker 2: be quite interesting, it might be quite helpful to start

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Speaker 2: to understand them. Which when I went to university and

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Speaker 2: then eventually came to the United States to go to

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Speaker 2: graduate school, I was scratching over and over again at

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Speaker 2: this question of what is with other people? And of

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Speaker 2: course people who are saying themselves what is with other people?

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Speaker 2: There's usually something else going on there, And what they

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Speaker 2: really mean is what's the deal with me? Who am I?

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Speaker 2: What do I really want? And I think that was

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Speaker 2: the case for me.

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Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, did you so you went to the University

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Speaker 1: of Sydney. I sure did, just why I recently lived

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Speaker 1: and have a fun place in my heart. What did

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Speaker 1: you study at UCAID?

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Speaker 2: You studied economics and social science, the same as me.

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Speaker 2: And I wrote my thesis, my undergraduate thesis on the

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Speaker 2: economics of the luxury fashion industry, like why do people buy?

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Speaker 2: Why do people get attached emotionally to some brands and

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Speaker 2: not others? And that feel really really meaningful to me

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Speaker 2: at the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you look surprised. No, I'm just like that you've

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Speaker 1: set me off because I, oh, no, I'm just like, oh.

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Speaker 1: I could just go on like such a tangent of

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Speaker 1: like asking you about this, because we've just done like

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Speaker 1: all these episodes on like the psychology a personal style

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Speaker 1: and micro trends, and I've been reading so much about

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Speaker 1: fashion psychology recently.

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Speaker 2: Do you know about enclosed cognition? I do, promise to

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Speaker 2: make this a small tangent.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I do, but you have to tell everybody else

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Speaker 1: about about it. We've talked about it on a recent episode. Basically,

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Speaker 1: how what you wear actually influences your emotions exactly right

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Speaker 1: inclose cognition is one of these tiny psychological concepts, and

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Speaker 1: the best way to understand it is what you wear

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Speaker 1: influences how you think, so not just what do other

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Speaker 1: people think about you, but how you think, and so

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Speaker 1: one way to think about it is, perhaps if I'm

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Speaker 1: wearing a very formal suit that might lead me to

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Speaker 1: be more structured in my thinking.

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Speaker 2: For example, or more rigorous. If I'm dressed really casually,

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Speaker 2: perhaps that makes me more creative, more open, more expansive.

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Speaker 2: Did it change what you decided to wear?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm actually looking at ours and people who are

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Speaker 1: watching on Netflix, we'll see we're basically wearing a vision

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Speaker 1: of the exact same amount. It is true.

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Speaker 2: I thought that.

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Speaker 1: I know. I saw you walking and I was like,

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Speaker 1: great choices. But I like, that's so interesting because obviously

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Speaker 1: we're set. We've like emotionally set up for the same conversation. Oh,

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Speaker 1: which is nice because I love that. And like we've

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Speaker 1: got a nice like we've got a nice, crisp kind

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Speaker 1: of nice white top but not like overly for more

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Speaker 1: a nice slacks situation, but like comfy and then cute

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Speaker 1: creative shoes, literally creative fun shoes.

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Speaker 2: Oh, we're ready to do this.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Wait, Can I ask you one more

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Speaker 1: question about your thesis that you did?

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Speaker 2: Please?

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Speaker 1: What was like the most the thing that when you

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Speaker 1: found out or when you discovered you just couldn't stop

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Speaker 1: telling people about white people buy luxury, or why we

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Speaker 1: make certain fashion or purchasing choices.

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Speaker 2: I think the thing is that people who choose to

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Speaker 2: buy luxury goods or to buy one brand over another,

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Speaker 2: it's not because they feel a connection with the brand.

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Speaker 2: It is because having it only the thing is a

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Speaker 2: part of who they are. And one of the ways

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Speaker 2: you know that is and people in your life who,

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Speaker 2: for example, might buy luxury fashion and never wear it,

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Speaker 2: but they have it, and they know that they have it,

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Speaker 2: and so it feels very much like a part of

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Speaker 2: their identity, part of who they are as a person,

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Speaker 2: who or how they relate to one another, how they

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Speaker 2: relate to the world.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. See I have a friend who's like

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Speaker 1: this who and she bought this beautiful bag for herself

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Speaker 1: last year. She works so hard, And I asked her

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Speaker 1: the other day. I was like, why do you never

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Speaker 1: bring that out? She's like, it's a bit too flashy,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like it for her. It was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I've gotten to this point where this is like a

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Speaker 1: marker of success for women or for people that I know,

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Speaker 1: so I have to participate. But then it also feels

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Speaker 1: like contrary to my deeper identity.

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Speaker 2: This is so fascinating it's not quite me.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting. Also, I'm like thinking about what I'm

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Speaker 1: wearing that I need to move on. You can see,

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Speaker 1: and I'm wearing like all one brand. And when you

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Speaker 1: were saying that, I was like, oh my gosh, I

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Speaker 1: just thought I really liked that and that person. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: but maybe that's what they represent could be Wow. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's actually talk about what we what I've bought you,

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Speaker 1: not which we need to bring you back to. Just

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Speaker 1: talk about fashion psychology anytime. Let's talk about bad habits

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Speaker 1: and where bad habits come from.

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Speaker 2: A good starting point might be to say there are

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Speaker 2: no bad habits, or perhaps it's not very helpful to

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Speaker 2: call something a bad habit and just condemn it right

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Speaker 2: off the bat. Of course, there are habits that are

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Speaker 2: more or less destructive or damaging to our health or

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Speaker 2: our relationships or the way we show up in the world.

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Speaker 2: But even then just saying this is a bad habit

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Speaker 2: is maybe not very helpful. But what we can assume

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Speaker 2: when someone says I have a bad habit being not

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Speaker 2: eating as healthily as I would like, not exercising as

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Speaker 2: often as I might want to, what they mean is

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Speaker 2: there is something about the way I operate that I

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Speaker 2: want to change. So where do they come from? Well,

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Speaker 2: one of my favorite things about the work that I

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Speaker 2: do is I spend a lot of time talking to

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Speaker 2: people about changing. So not just change, but how do

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Speaker 2: I get better at changing? And part of it is

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Speaker 2: we're not totally sure psychologically about change. People have really

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Speaker 2: different reactions when you say do you want to change?

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Speaker 2: But if you say to someone would you like to

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Speaker 2: be better? Almost everyone says, yeah, that's what I'm here

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Speaker 2: to do. I'm trying to be better. So what's preventing us?

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Speaker 2: What's getting in the way of us actually being better?

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Speaker 2: There are basically three things, and they are environmental, tactical,

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Speaker 2: and relational. So and environmental cause of a bad habit

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Speaker 2: might be something really basic like I live very far

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Speaker 2: away from a place where I could safely exercise. They

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Speaker 2: don't have good quality access to healthy food that's affordable.

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Speaker 2: A relational one might be I have a set of

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Speaker 2: friends who when I go out with them, the night

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Speaker 2: kind of spins out of control, very good example of

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Speaker 2: a relational one. And a tactical one might be I

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Speaker 2: just haven't set myself up in quite the right way,

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Speaker 2: and so Katie Milkman at Warden the University of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: has a great set of research on how do we

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Speaker 2: create the tactical conditions for us to be a healthier,

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Speaker 2: be better versions of ourselves? And the most basic version

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Speaker 2: of it is do I put my gym shoes? Do

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Speaker 2: I put my trainers by the door before I go

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Speaker 2: to bed at night? So then when I wake up

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Speaker 2: so well my sneakers are right there. I don't have

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Speaker 2: to look around for all of the closed shoes I

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Speaker 2: need in order to go and exercise. So I've created

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Speaker 2: the right tactics for that to happen. Where someone has

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Speaker 2: a habit that they are seeking to change, part of

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Speaker 2: it is saying, let's diagnose what's really going here. They

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Speaker 2: got an environmental gap? Do I have a relational gap

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Speaker 2: or a set of relationships that are maybe taking me

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Speaker 2: to places that I don't necessarily want to go? Or

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Speaker 2: do I not just not have the right tactics. I

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Speaker 2: want to read more, but I never have a book handy.

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Speaker 2: I want to exercise more, but it seems like my

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Speaker 2: clothes are always in the laundry. These are things we

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Speaker 2: can change relatively quickly.

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Speaker 1: I love this way of thinking about it. When does

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Speaker 1: it become a motivational problem, and when does it become

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Speaker 1: maybe something bigger than all those things that like environment tactics,

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Speaker 1: you know, people can't change.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the really dangerous things that can

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Speaker 2: come from spending a lot of time thinking about your

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Speaker 2: own psychology is assuming that anytime you don't live up

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Speaker 2: to your own expectations, that's a problem of discipline or motivation.

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Speaker 2: I'm just not discipl lond enough. I'm too lazy to

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Speaker 2: be able to do the thing that I want to do.

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Speaker 2: And if instead you said to yourself, discipline and motivation,

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Speaker 2: these are really finite, psychologists would say they're cognitively very

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Speaker 2: expensive to maintain. It takes a lot of effort to

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Speaker 2: keep our goals and objectives at the very front of

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Speaker 2: our minds. And so if we can push ourselves a

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Speaker 2: little bit beyond that and instead say what we should

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Speaker 2: actually be trying to build all of the time is

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Speaker 2: self efficacy. And I continue to think that self efficacy

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Speaker 2: is just one of the most underloved concepts in all

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Speaker 2: of psychology. And you, of course know this, but if

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Speaker 2: anyone needed a quick definition, self efficacy is basically your

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Speaker 2: belief in your own capabilities that if an obstacle comes

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Speaker 2: up your level of confidence that you will figure out

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Speaker 2: a way around it that you already have or could

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Speaker 2: quickly require the resources and to solve it. You are

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Speaker 2: Ted Lasso viewer.

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Speaker 1: You are you my favorite person? Yes, of course I

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Speaker 1: am a Ted Lasso viewer. I'm a multi I have

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Speaker 1: a multi watch viewer. Have you watched it? Wait? Sorry, don't, yes,

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Speaker 1: Tuck talk to me about so.

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Speaker 2: In the very first season of ted Lasso, there's a

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Speaker 2: great line where Rebecca says to Ted, do you believe

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Speaker 2: in ghosts? Ted? And he says, you know, I do,

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Speaker 2: But most of all, I just want them to believe

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Speaker 2: in themselves. And I think that's what self efficacy is.

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Speaker 2: It's people believing in themselves but also being surrounded by

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Speaker 2: people who want them to believe in themselves. And so

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Speaker 2: if instead of saying, oh, I'm too lazy, I'm not

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Speaker 2: disciplined enough, you can say, do I actually have the

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Speaker 2: self efficacy that I need? And you can also increase

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Speaker 2: your own self efficacy just by thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: The example I always think of with self efficacy is

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Speaker 1: somebody's trying to quit drinking, right, and if you go

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Speaker 1: into the par or you go into the bar, and

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Speaker 1: you already are thinking, well, if I want to have

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Speaker 1: a drink, I can't say no, or like, will I

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Speaker 1: be able to say no? Will I be able to

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Speaker 1: not do that? Will I be able to cope with

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Speaker 1: not drinking tonight? And you don't have any backup, lin

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Speaker 1: you have no belief that you'll be able to like,

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Speaker 1: you've kind of already lost. And that's the same with

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Speaker 1: any kind of behavioral change. Right if you already are

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Speaker 1: counting yourself out, if you're already like letting kind of

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Speaker 1: doubts seep in, I think that shows that like self

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Speaker 1: efficacy kind of needs strengthening.

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Speaker 2: It needs a boost. And you've as soon as you've

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Speaker 2: started this negotiation with yourself exactly, perhaps I will just

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Speaker 2: have one, or I'll wait for someone to ask me.

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Speaker 2: You're not taking a second to remind yourself. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've done a lot of difficult things before. I have

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Speaker 2: overcome a lot of obstacles before. And if I can

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Speaker 2: spend the moment bringing those to the forefront of my mind,

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Speaker 2: perhaps even writing them down or talking to someone about them,

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Speaker 2: both of which we know make a really big difference

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Speaker 2: in your goal attainment. Even if I can just remind

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Speaker 2: myself mentally become very difficult things before our chance of

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Speaker 2: success goes way up.

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Speaker 1: I love that we talk about that a lot of

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Speaker 1: like I think you actually talk about it in your

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Speaker 1: book of like setting What was it like an early

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Speaker 1: win exactly?

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Speaker 2: And the idea that you can in very positive ways

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Speaker 2: trick yourself into change is extremely compelling to me. And

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Speaker 2: that they a couple of really easy tricks. One is

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Speaker 2: just reminding yourself of hard things that you have done before,

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Speaker 2: or for example, you're thinking about how might I exercise

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Speaker 2: much more regularly. Let's say that you have got You're

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Speaker 2: still in your home, and you've got as far as

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Speaker 2: putting your shoes on, even just saying to yourself twenty

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Speaker 2: percent of the way there now, like, I've got my

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Speaker 2: shoes on, I've got a podcast queued up, I'm about

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Speaker 2: to walk out the door, and basically more or less done.

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Speaker 2: We call that the endowed progress effect, that you have

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Speaker 2: an amount of progress that you've already achieved. All of

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Speaker 2: these actually are just the time test of little nudges

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Speaker 2: that move you towards becoming the person you want to be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I love these I really want to talk about

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Speaker 1: those in a second a little bit more. But something

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Speaker 1: that I've obviously skipped over is why do we even

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Speaker 1: end up in these places? Why do we end up

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Speaker 1: with a habit that is making us unhappy and making

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Speaker 1: us suffer, whether that is like, why do I end

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Speaker 1: up in the habit of being with people who aren't

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Speaker 1: nice to me even though I know the outcome? Why

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Speaker 1: do I end up in the habit of drinking too

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Speaker 1: much even though I know I feel bad, or you know,

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Speaker 1: not committing to things even though I know that they're

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Speaker 1: going to make me feel better. Can you kind of

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Speaker 1: explain how we end up at this point where we

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Speaker 1: know we need behavioral change, but we now were struggling

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Speaker 1: to do it.

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Speaker 2: And then you get by yourself for a second and

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Speaker 2: you say, what is wrong with me exactly? And then

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Speaker 2: you kind of ask yourself what is wrong with me?

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Speaker 2: And you say, well, I don't actually don't really know,

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Speaker 2: like I don't have good explanations, but I know where

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be and where I am. So

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Speaker 2: we have some good thoughts about why it might be

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Speaker 2: the case. A really important one is identity salience. So

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Speaker 2: we all wear like so many hats so many versions

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Speaker 2: of ourselves. We are different at work than we are

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Speaker 2: at home. We're different with some friends than we are others.

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Speaker 2: And you can think about these as not totally different people,

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Speaker 2: but they are different versions of Julia, different versions of

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Speaker 2: Gemma that people experience, and that's normal, it can be

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Speaker 2: really healthy. But often when we find ourselves in a

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Speaker 2: situation or a relationship, or an environment or a job

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Speaker 2: by the way, that we don't want to be in,

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Speaker 2: it is because there is some part of our identity

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Speaker 2: that that is really important to us, even if we

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Speaker 2: haven't properly excavated or understood it. Like if I became single,

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Speaker 2: I don't know who I would be, for example. Or

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Speaker 2: I have only ever had this job, so it is

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Speaker 2: impossible for me to imagine having another one, so I

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Speaker 2: can't quit, so I stay trapped in a job that

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Speaker 2: I know makes me unhappy, for example. And so really

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Speaker 2: doing two things. One is press yourself. So what's the

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Speaker 2: part of my identity that is really coming to the

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Speaker 2: forefront here, including I'm part of this friend group and if,

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Speaker 2: for example, I didn't go out with this friend group

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Speaker 2: on a certain night, maybe they would never be my

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Speaker 2: friends again. And then I would never have any more

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Speaker 2: friends for the rest of my life. So one is pressed, like,

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Speaker 2: what's the part of our identity that we're really protecting?

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Speaker 2: And how true is that? Is it possible that I

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Speaker 2: could not be happy as a single person? Is it

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Speaker 2: possible that there's any other job in the universe that

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Speaker 2: might be meaningful or satisfying to me? And then the

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Speaker 2: second is actually to look back a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: we call this in psychology the end of history illusion.

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Speaker 2: Daniel Gilbert and others at Harvard University pioneered this, which

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Speaker 2: is it's difficult for us to imagine that we will

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Speaker 2: change a lot in the future. For most of us,

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Speaker 2: we think this is finished product. But if you ask

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Speaker 2: us to look back, especially earlier in our lives, you say, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm twenty six.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: If I look back until to the time when I

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Speaker 2: was sixteen and ask myself, am I different? You say, oh,

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Speaker 2: my gosh, I'm basically a different person in so many ways.

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Speaker 2: And so I can also it's actually likely that I'll

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Speaker 2: be very different in the future, and so being able

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Speaker 2: to do a little bit of that prospection and imagine

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Speaker 2: that future Julia could be a totally different person, happy,

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Speaker 2: in a totally different set of circumstances, and that by

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Speaker 2: making some different choices now, we could actually be doing

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Speaker 2: something very kind for the future version of ourselves, even

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Speaker 2: if it's hard to do it for the present version

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Speaker 2: of ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I love thinking that way. Actually, I think about

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Speaker 1: that a lot where I'm just like, Wow, isn't it

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Speaker 1: amazing that the time's going to pass anyways? And in

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Speaker 1: one year, like a year in your twenties is like

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Speaker 1: five years everywhere else I do. I fully believe that,

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Speaker 1: like so much can change.

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Speaker 2: I love what you said, though, by the way, which

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Speaker 2: is the time is going to pass anyway? Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 2: The time is going to pass anyway. Someone is going

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Speaker 2: to get this opportunity that you may or may not

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Speaker 2: raise your hand for. And there's a set of relationships friendship, romantic,

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Speaker 2: professional that are available to you if you put yourself

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Speaker 2: out there. The time is going to pass anyway, and

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Speaker 2: so you might as well take a chance to take

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Speaker 2: a risk, And the returns on that risk taking in

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Speaker 2: your twenties are so much higher than through the rest

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Speaker 2: of your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or like tomorrow, Yeah, you may only have been

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Speaker 1: eating healthy for twenty four hours or you may only

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Speaker 1: have not, you know, vaped or smoke for twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: but then in three days it's going to be seventy

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Speaker 1: two hours, and then suddenly it's going to be six months,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, well, the time is passing anyways, and

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Speaker 1: like every all you have to do is be present

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Speaker 1: in that moment and not or do the thing that

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Speaker 1: you said you were going to do, and you have

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Speaker 1: this whole new life. So they're very interesting. This is

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Speaker 1: a question I have highlighted on my question list that

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Speaker 1: I really want to ask you. I am sure a

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Speaker 1: lot of us have heard about the magic number that

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Speaker 1: it takes ninety days to break a bad habit. This

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Speaker 1: is a very viral idea. Is that true?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't know exactly how long it takes to

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Speaker 2: break a habit. I feel very confident that the answer

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Speaker 2: is not ninety days most of the time. And we

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Speaker 2: can all think about it's a really easy way to

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Speaker 2: disprove this, which is we can all think of examples

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Speaker 2: of a friend or a relative, perhaps ourselves, who one

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Speaker 2: day says I have decided to quit smoking, for example,

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Speaker 2: or quit drinking or take up exercising, and they somehow

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Speaker 2: do then for the rest of their life that person

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Speaker 2: doesn't do that thing anymore. And we can equally think

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Speaker 2: about people at the opposite end of the spectrum who

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Speaker 2: with a lot of advice, with a lot of encouragement,

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Speaker 2: are not able to change or evolve, maybe even with

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Speaker 2: a lot of attempts to break a bad habit. There's

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Speaker 2: good evidence that suggests that to really internalize a new

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Speaker 2: habit in your mind can take anywhere from between four

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Speaker 2: and about two hundred and fifty five days, which is

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Speaker 2: obviously a really wide spectrum in terms of creating and

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Speaker 2: establishing new neural pathways in your brain so that whatever

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Speaker 2: the behavior is becomes automatic. There are for sure things

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Speaker 2: we can do to make it easier, because I could

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Speaker 2: imagine people saying, I'd like it to take four days

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Speaker 2: rather than two hundred and fifty six days. And with you,

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Speaker 2: I know you like the four days. Do we get

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Speaker 2: to pick how many days?

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Speaker 1: And so for I'd like it to take four days.

438
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: Things you can do to bring yourself closer to four

439
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: days rather than two hundred and fifty six days. Number one,

440
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: you can write it down. Number two, you can tell

441
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 2: somebody else about it. So that's clearly articulate. Your goal.

442
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 2: You can make it visible and social to people, and

443
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 2: you can shift your environment, shift the context in which

444
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 2: you operate to make it less likely that the habit

445
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: is available or attractive to you as well.

446
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: So this is the other thing I feel like is

447
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 1: the problem with the ninety day thing. And I wonder

448
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: if you have the same thought, which is, it takes

449
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: ninety days to break a bad habit. But once you're

450
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: past that, if you keep the habit for the rest

451
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 1: of your life, who's to say it didn't take one day,

452
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: there won't happen, I mean exactly, Like, so it's like

453
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: ninety days to set a new habit. But so it's like, well,

454
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: if I go back to smoking or whatever on day

455
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: one hundred, did you know what I mean? Like, it

456
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,480
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense because if you've set then new habit,

457
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: surely it lasts forever. Like do you know what I'm saying?

458
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Like, I know exactly what you're saying. And it's such

459
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: a good point because if we think about it for

460
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,160
Speaker 2: even a second. And this is why it's so important

461
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 2: I think for you to do exactly what you do

462
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: and help people really unpack like the science behind this collegy,

463
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: you pause and think about it for a second. See

464
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: is that likely? Like, is it likely that for everyone

465
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: ninety days is the magic number? Of course it's not likely.

466
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: Is it even a helpful guide? Not really? And instead,

467
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: what we should be perhaps encouraging people to think about

468
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 2: is the idea that instead of saying I have changed,

469
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: what I'm basically always doing is changing, like I'm always

470
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 2: evolving and hopefully moving towards something more positive. It's very

471
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 2: hard to run away from something negative for the rest

472
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: of your life. But if we can continue to say

473
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: all I'm trying to do is make a set of

474
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: better and better, kinder and kinder to myself into others' choices,

475
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:48,880
Speaker 2: then every single day I get the chance to make

476
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 2: the choice again, and hopefully that feels really positive rather

477
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: than exhausting to people of oh, we've got to get

478
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: up and decide not to smoke again, We're to get

479
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: up and go out and just how I'm going to

480
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: show up in this night, but instead say, let's take

481
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,119
Speaker 2: you one step at a time. We're always in the

482
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 2: process of becoming who we are.

483
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: I actually think that is such a smart way of

484
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: thinking about it, which is stop thinking about changing habits

485
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 1: as deprivation, but instead as addition, and I think they've

486
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: done amazing, amazing studies where it is so much easier

487
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: to well, it's so much harder to say don't eat

488
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:31,160
Speaker 1: the marshmallow or don't do the thing, then say opt

489
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: into doing something, opt into like do this activity instead

490
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: of eating the marshmallow, or like think about the habit

491
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: or think about behavioral change is something that is like

492
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: a gift or an addition to your life rather than

493
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: just like, oh, I have to spend the rest of

494
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: my life not drinking, I have to spend the rest

495
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: of my life not eating carbs or not that that's

496
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: a terrible habit example, but like I have to spend

497
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: the rest of my life depriving myself of something in

498
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 1: order to be happy. It's like, oh, you get to

499
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 1: spend the rest of your life, you know. Or today's

500
00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 1: day I get to wake up in like my lung'spe

501
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: even better today's day that I get to wake up

502
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: and try and new mocked out. Today's day I get

503
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: to wake up and like really nourish my body in

504
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: like a way that feels so fruitful. I feel like

505
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: that's such a good behavioral shift, and that's what I'm

506
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: hearing you kind of say.

507
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 2: Right, I like the idea of having an inner debate

508
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 2: with yourself, But the really positive form of the question

509
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: is what's in it for me? Like, what's in it

510
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: for me? Why would I even do this? And the

511
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: more you can start to say to yourself, oh, like,

512
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: I know what's in it for me, and it is

513
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: all those examples that you just gave, and probably many

514
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: more for people, you get to remind yourself that there

515
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: are benefits that are coming. Even better is if you

516
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: can remind yourself of benefits that are here already. I've

517
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: saved money, I got to have a conversation with someone

518
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: that I'm trying to repair a relationship with. For example,

519
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: I tried a workout dance class and fell down. But

520
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 2: I also fell down in front of a lot of people,

521
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 2: and I did not die of embarrassments, Like I have

522
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 2: learned something new and positive about myself. So there are

523
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 2: not only benefits that are coming in the future, which

524
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: is good but still hard for us to imagine. But

525
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm getting benefits right now.

526
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: I love that what's in it for me?

527
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 2: What's in it for me?

528
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: Like, if you want to change your behavior, be like

529
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: what's in it for me? What am I going to

530
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: gain tomorrow? And again, like we were talking about that

531
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: small wind, like setting yourself up to win big or

532
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: at least small, but it wins something like really really

533
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: early on, I want to just quickly go back to

534
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: one thing that we again, I keep like wanting to

535
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: pick your brain about all these things. Why does motivation

536
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: and discipline? But mainly I would say, actually, why does

537
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: motivation fail us so often? And why is it that

538
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: people who have all the motivation in the world are

539
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 1: often the ones who don't Always that aren't always.

540
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: Success Because motivation without both a really good plan, the

541
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: right support, and the right environment is just too much effort.

542
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 2: You are basically constantly pushing against a brick wall, and

543
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 2: so it is a way of trapping you in your

544
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: own good intentions. And that's so unfortunate because people really

545
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: deserve a chance to take all of the wisdom from psychology,

546
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 2: from behavioral science, from neuroscience and use it to their

547
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 2: own advantage. And if we just say to people, oh,

548
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 2: I think you need a little bit more motivation, it's

549
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 2: like saying to people, don't get defensive. It's going to

550
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: produce the exact opposite of the behavior that you hope

551
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: it will. And so when you feel that sense of

552
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: motivation for yourself, because it's not motivation is not bad,

553
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: it's just not enough, what can you do with it?

554
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 2: Instead of saying, Okay, well today it's the first of January,

555
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: I feel very motivated. I'm going to go out and

556
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: run fifteen miles and then I will eat a salad,

557
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: and then I will get eight hours a very good

558
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: quality sleep. A really good thing that you could do

559
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 2: instead is So I'm going to take that motivation and

560
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: use it to create a plan. I'm going to use

561
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: it to find a buddy to support me in what

562
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: I am doing. I'm going to use that motivation to

563
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 2: actually imagine what it's going to feel like in a

564
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 2: week when I'm back at work and extremely busy, and

565
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: make a plan for that version of Julia rather than

566
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: today's version of Julia. So can motivation be a fuel

567
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: for people to change? Of course, yes? Does it last

568
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: a very long time? No, it doesn't. And when it

569
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: meets other obstacles, it is very often not enough in

570
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: the face of those obstacles, And it is really really

571
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: unhelpful when we judge ourselves or judge other people for

572
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 2: not having enough motivation, not having enough willpower, It wasn't

573
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 2: ever likely that they were going to be successful on

574
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 2: motivation and willpower alone.

575
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: I think about this all the time whenever, And this

576
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: is a total like curve ball to throw you, but

577
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: we'll do the detail come back. I think about this

578
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: all the time when I see people like criticize people

579
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: who are overweight on the internet and they're like, just

580
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: have some willpower, just have some discipline, And I'm like,

581
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: that is honestly so ridiculous to think that that is enough,

582
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: and that that was ever enough for you to change,

583
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: or ever enough for anybody. Like the way that our environment,

584
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: our childhood environments are set up, the way that our

585
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: physical environments are set up, the way that modern society

586
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: is set up, means that it is more likely than

587
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: not that you will not change your behavior because of

588
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 1: how exhausting it is to go against all your history,

589
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: all like the stresses of modern life, all the coping

590
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: skills that you have to change. So I love that

591
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 1: you're saying, like that's motivation and willpower is not enough

592
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 1: for anybody. And if for somebody to say that, it

593
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: was meant that there were probably other things going on,

594
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: the tactile things, the relational things, the environmental things that

595
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: are like also shifting at the same time.

596
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: It's also such a good example, and if we can

597
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: extend the detour even a little further, what you ask

598
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: about is such a good example of what we call

599
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: in behavior economics but also now in psychology, the fundamental

600
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: attribution error. And basically, I experience myself as a very complicated, unique, special,

601
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: fully realized human being. I'm a complete person to myself,

602
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: and even people that we know very well, very intimately

603
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: remain sort of strangers to us in all kinds of ways.

604
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: We can not only never properly understand them, but they're

605
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: never quite as complete as we are as a person.

606
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: And so a consequence of that is we are extremely

607
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: quick to both blame it was probably their fault and

608
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: to judge there is something wrong with them other people

609
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: in ways that we might not for ourselves. It's a

610
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: really good example is if someone is late to a

611
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: meeting or to an event, especially if we're inclined to

612
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: judge them, we might say, oh, of course, they're very disorganized.

613
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: This always happens that they are not respectful, and we've

614
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: jumped really fast to they're not a good person, they

615
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: don't value our relationships, Whereas, of course, in one hundred

616
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: percent of the situations where I have been late, there's

617
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 2: obviously a very good explanation. The are usually outside of myself.

618
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: The train was delayed, someone else really needed me, perhaps

619
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: I was coming from a very important meeting. And so

620
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: that fundamental attribution error, the tendency to externalize our own

621
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: mistakes and to blame other people for their limitations, it

622
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: is really dangerous because it not only prevents us taking

623
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: a hard look at ourselves, but also prevents us being

624
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: more forgiving, more welcoming, maybe even more helpful to that person.

625
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,239
Speaker 1: I do this all the time. I'm hearing you say that.

626
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I did this this morning. There

627
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: was like somebody walking in front of me, and I

628
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 1: was like, that person is so rude. I was like,

629
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: can't they see that this is like busy sidewalk. And

630
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 1: then I literally did it like five minutes later, and

631
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: I was like, well, it's different, because you know, and

632
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: then I was like, no, it's not different.

633
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 2: Like I had to pause in the middle of the

634
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: tell someone.

635
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know where I was going.

636
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: I was like, well, this person probably didn't either. I know,

637
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: it's so interesting to like, basically what we're just talking

638
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: about is like empathy and like not judging other people's

639
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: progress or yeah, what they may or may not have

640
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: like in their toolkit.

641
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 2: I always think the first law of behavioral science is

642
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: people are people, and so are you, And so you

643
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 2: can be forgiving of other people while having very high

644
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 2: expectations for yourself and so indeed, people are people and

645
00:33:59,320 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: so are you.

646
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love that. Okay, let's talk about how we're

647
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: going to change our behavior. You've been giving us so

648
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: many little snippets, like little treats along the way, But

649
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: I'm like, let's get a little bit of a let's

650
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: get a little bit of a guide down from an expert.

651
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: What are, in your mind some of the most scientifically

652
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: successful ways to change behavior on an individual level, in

653
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 1: a family level, in a relationship level, maybe even an

654
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: organizational level. How do we make people, including ourselves change.

655
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: First, get specific, and second, get honest. So let's be

656
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: really practical about it, and let's just talk about individuals

657
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 2: for a second. Yeah, and then we can talk about

658
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: much more enjoyable than trying to change yourself trying to

659
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 2: change other people the best. Let's say do that instead,

660
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: but let's for the moment assume that we have to

661
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,880
Speaker 2: make a sincere effort to change ourselves. Okay, get specific.

662
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: What is the behavior that you are trying to change,

663
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 2: and so, for example, quit drinking is not a behavior

664
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: that's just a loose goal or it's a kind of

665
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 2: category of activities that you don't want to be doing anymore.

666
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 2: Deciding not to have a second drink, for example, on

667
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: any given night. Right, we're starting to get specific on

668
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 2: what you are seeking to do. It's very clearly measurable.

669
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 2: So get specific. We've already talked a few times about

670
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: the idea that writing a goal down, even if you

671
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: never show it to people, is very helpful. It seems

672
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 2: to trip some kind of cognitive switch for us. Asking

673
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: people for help is another thing that you can do

674
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 2: that is really powerful and useful. And so that might

675
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: be I have someone that I could text when I

676
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 2: am thinking about to extend this example having a second

677
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 2: drink and that night. The other thing that you can do,

678
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: and this works really well in organizations and teams as well,

679
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 2: and is like, let's start to imagine what that future

680
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: would be like, if I they decide or I make

681
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: this choice that I'm trying to move away from. If

682
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 2: it happens, if I want to have a second drink,

683
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 2: if I think about calling that person who I actually

684
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: have a pretty destructive relationship with, then what should I do?

685
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: If I have this feeling? Because feelings often precede our thoughts,

686
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: then what am I likely to think like I should

687
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:29,959
Speaker 2: call that person? And what should I do instead? Really

688
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: important is that we have some kind of replacement for

689
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: the behavior. So a good example in a pub would be, well,

690
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 2: what would I order instead? That might be a really

691
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: good moment to know what my alternative order is. If

692
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: you've never contemplated what you would order other than a

693
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: second drink, it might be good to have a plan

694
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: going in before you before you do so. And then

695
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: the next thing to do is to say, well, once

696
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: I've accomplished a really small version at that goal we've

697
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 2: talked too. It could be twenty four hours of successfully

698
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: achieving the goal, It could be thirty six, it could

699
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 2: be a month. Then what happens? What reward might I

700
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: give myself. One of the funny things that happens is

701
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: that the reward is often very motivating to us. We're

702
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: seduced by the idea of the reward, but once you

703
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 2: get there, you find it wasn't that important to you,

704
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: Like you didn't they want or need the thing that

705
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: you are going to reward yourself with, because the goal

706
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:31,720
Speaker 2: itself has become and its own reward. So get specific upfront,

707
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: get support, including from your own brain, about what you're

708
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: going to do instead, and then have your if then

709
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 2: escape plan.

710
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. If that intentions are so good, I feel like

711
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: very who I feel like James Clear wrote about them

712
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: a lot in Atomic Atomic Atomic Habits.

713
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 2: Atomic Habits, and it sounds really basic. But one of

714
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: the things that I love about it is it's not

715
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: just oh, there's a different plan, but that idea that

716
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 2: where kind of constantly on ranching pathways and you say

717
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 2: to yourself, oh, like there are always a different set

718
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: of choices. Yeah, like there were always This was always

719
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 2: a choose your own adventure. I could always have made

720
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,239
Speaker 2: different choices, and this is just one of those moments

721
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: where I can do that.

722
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: I feel like this is what we keep coming back to.

723
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,799
Speaker 1: It's like you're in charge of your reality. Prove it

724
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: to yourself. That you can be in charge.

725
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: Exactly and then no one cares more than you, like,

726
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 2: no one will care more than you. But I hope

727
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 2: the other really liberating thought and sometimes this comes with

728
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: time and sometimes you just have the opportunity to learn

729
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: it is no one cares. And it's a really good

730
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 2: version of that, which is you can do whatever you

731
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: want because most people are just not paying that much attention.

732
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: Oh it's the best.

733
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are thinking an awful lot about themselves and

734
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: how they're showing up in that situation, and aren't finding

735
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: whatever you are doing particularly memorable and in the best

736
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,280
Speaker 2: possible way, perhaps not even that interesting to them.

737
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: I feel like that is a completely different conversation. But

738
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: once you realize that, it's like, oh, wow, this whole

739
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: so much more about the world as possible to me

740
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: when I don't have this entire part of my brain

741
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: thinking about how somebody else is perceiving me when they're not, Like,

742
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: it's a huge freedom. I think. So.

743
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: Daniel Carneman said, nothing as important as you think it

744
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: is while you are thinking about it, And I think

745
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: the personal psychology version of that is I'm just not

746
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: as interesting as I think I am. Yeah, And it's

747
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: a little confronting, but hopefully also wildly freeing of people.

748
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: I'm just not that interesting to other people.

749
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can put the spotlight on somebody else for

750
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 1: a while. Following this vein of how to change behavior,

751
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 1: the vein being the entire episode, but following this specific vein,

752
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 1: what happens when you fail? You know, you've talked a

753
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: lot about how you will try multiple times. Likely you

754
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: likely will. I read the statistic that people try on

755
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: average like twenty five thirty times before behavior sticks, if

756
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: it ever does. What's the protocol then for when you've

757
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: noticed that you've slipped, you've fallen, it hasn't gone the

758
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: way that you wanted it to jam.

759
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 2: Can I just say I think that was the most

760
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 2: important sentence in the whole episode, what happens when you fail?

761
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 2: And so many people that I talk to, and I

762
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: do a lot of work with CEOs or very senior executives,

763
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: people much more established in their life and careers, refuse

764
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: to use the phrase when we fail or when I fail,

765
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: And we'll only talk about if we fail, And are

766
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 2: then very quick to say, but of course we won't.

767
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,320
Speaker 2: We will be in the minority who succeeds, but don't

768
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 2: do enough to really push themselves, push the team to say,

769
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: maybe it will be quite healthy to plan for failure.

770
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: What happens when we fail? And assuming that we will

771
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: both lets you in advance say well, I'm going to

772
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: forgive myself first when that happens. But then I'm going

773
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 2: to do two things. The first is I'm going to

774
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: declare a fresh start thing. And you might know the

775
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: fresh start effect, which is that certain periods of time

776
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: your birthday, New Year on Monday, can be very motivating

777
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: for us in terms of declaring that now is the

778
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 2: beginning of a new habit. We just seem to be

779
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: a little bit more successful when we have had a

780
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: fresh start. The thing that I love about this science

781
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 2: and psychology is anything can be a fresh start tomorrow,

782
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 2: the next hour, the next half hour. The more that

783
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: you can say to yourself, I have the opportunity to

784
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: begin again at any possible moment. And so if for example,

785
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: you have not started the day as healthily as you want,

786
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: and you're like, well today is shot, I might as

787
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: well eat a whole cake. You could all say two

788
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: pm is a fresh start. Nobody cares that there are

789
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: no rules, pick a time, begin with a fresh start.

790
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 2: The second is, instead of talking about what we have

791
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,399
Speaker 2: to do, or what the rules or requirements are, or

792
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: what we think other people expect others, it could be

793
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 2: really constructive to instead frame our goals in terms of

794
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: expectations that we have of ourselves. What expectation do I

795
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: have of myself? So I might have an expectation that

796
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,520
Speaker 2: I am a person who is able and excited to

797
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 2: get up early and exercise. I might have an expectation

798
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: that I am a person who gives help to other

799
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 2: people when I can see that they need it, that

800
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: I am kind or generous or a patient. And you see,

801
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: all of that is part of saying, here's a set

802
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 2: of qualities that I hope I have that I would

803
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: like to see more of in myself, and I'm going

804
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: to look for opportunities to practice them. I'm going to

805
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 2: look for opportunities to demonstrate that that's consistent with how

806
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,720
Speaker 2: I would like to see myself. So when we fail,

807
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: which all of us will, declaring a fresh start and

808
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 2: then reminding ourselves what expectations we have that ourselves makes

809
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 2: us much more likely to be successful the next time.

810
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: And I think people think that it's jinxing it or

811
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,920
Speaker 1: it's a self fulfilling prophecy. But it's like, well, wouldn't

812
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: you rather the prophecy than actually was able to get

813
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: back on track? Like then it just be completely derailed

814
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:38,959
Speaker 1: by not having an if then plan.

815
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost refusing to think about it is itself

816
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's exactly, you

817
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 2: can have a prophecy or you can have a plan,

818
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: but you can't have both of those. And what we

819
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: know for sure is that the plan path succeeds much

820
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: more often than the prophecy path.

821
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 1: I love that. That's an amazing quote. That is so good.

822
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: Put it on a T shirt.

823
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: I know, I'm like much. Let's get into this before

824
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,879
Speaker 1: we end up wrapping up. How do we handle people

825
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: who refuse to change? So, I know we've spoken a

826
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: lot about this relational factor. You know, maybe you have

827
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: parents who refuse to change, you have a partner who

828
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: refuses to change, You have friends who are enabling a

829
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: problem just as much as you are probably enabling them

830
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: as well. What do we do do we call out

831
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: their behavior? When do we just decide that maybe we

832
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: need to just not be in that situation. It's a

833
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: fine line. Do you have any advice for people who

834
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: are dealing with that?

835
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 2: It is so seductive to think a lot about how

836
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: other people need to change. Trust me, I spend my

837
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: whole life working on change, and the best is the

838
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: kind where you get to stay exactly the same and

839
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: other people have to change. Unfortunately, there's not a whole

840
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: lot of that out there. And so instead of really

841
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, occupying our mental and emotional headspace

842
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: with the ways that other people need to change, the

843
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:18,160
Speaker 2: safest assumption is that you can't change other people. It's

844
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: not that other people don't change, of course they do.

845
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: Can you make someone else change? No, Generally you can't.

846
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: And so what you can do, what you are always

847
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: in control of, is your response to that person and understanding,

848
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: i mean, why that person is so triggering for you

849
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: is a really good step to take, because you can

850
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: continue to change your relationship both like the quantity of

851
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 2: time that you spend with them, for example, how you

852
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 2: spend that time, what you do, or how you react

853
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: to what they say to you. Whether that is advice

854
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 2: from a parent, that doesn't make it an obligation to

855
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: do what they suggested that you do, or why someone

856
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 2: else's appetite for conflict doesn't have to turn into an

857
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 2: argument if you choose to remove yourself from the situation. However,

858
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: sometimes we see we feel like we've told someone to change,

859
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 2: suggested that they change, and they still haven't changed, and

860
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 2: it's really easy to interpret that as a statement of

861
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 2: disrespect from that person towards you. And I think there's

862
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: actually a really useful tactic in practice that comes from

863
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 2: family therapy actually or couple's therapy, around articulating a need

864
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,480
Speaker 2: that you might have or a desire that you might

865
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,959
Speaker 2: have for people to change. It's basically this. It's called

866
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 2: a clear and specific request because that is exactly what

867
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: it is. And so often someone will talk to me

868
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: about a person in their life. It could be a

869
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: person on their team, it could be their boss, it

870
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 2: could be a romantic partner or a friend, and they'll say, oh,

871
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: this person like all the things that I think are

872
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 2: wrong with them, and I just really think they should

873
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,879
Speaker 2: completely change. And I will usually say, have you made

874
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: a clear and specific request? When you are fifteen minutes

875
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,959
Speaker 2: late for our dinners? I interpret that as a sign

876
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: of disrespect. For me and for my time, and do

877
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: you think it would be possible for you to plan

878
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 2: to be five minutes early in the future, clear and

879
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: specific request, and it's not a trap. They're free to refuse.

880
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: They're free to say that isn't practical for me. It's

881
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 2: not an abuse of your power and abuse of the relationship.

882
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: But you've made a clear and specific request, and maybe

883
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: they can respond to that request. Maybe they can, but

884
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 2: you at least will know that you have done your part.

885
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: What I know for sure is not successful in changing

886
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,240
Speaker 2: anyone else's behavior is complaining about it to a third person.

887
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: That is the opposite of a successful strategy. It's enjoyable,

888
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 2: it's very emotionally satisfying. It unfortunately works zero percent of

889
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:05,720
Speaker 2: the time.

890
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it so often feels like emotional processing. Right.

891
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes I think we think that our reaction to their

892
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: behavior is the problem, which it probably is, and we

893
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: need to work through it. But we work through it

894
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 1: not with them, and we're like trying to find clarity

895
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: and somebody who isn't that person. It's very like a

896
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: roundabout way of like the other person becomes a proxy

897
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: for what you really should be saying to like the individual.

898
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: I feel like the most useful question in all of

899
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 2: the inter group relations interpersonal psychology is have you tried

900
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 2: talking to them about it? I know it so often

901
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: you don't even need the second question.

902
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 1: I know, I know, but it's so difficult, isn't it.

903
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 2: So often I will say to people have you tried

904
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 2: talking to them about it? Especially in a professional setting,

905
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 2: and often people will say, well, I was sort of

906
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,359
Speaker 2: hoping you would talk to them about it. That's why

907
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 2: we're having this conversation. And I think you're a dema,

908
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: so right to say it can be very helpful for

909
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: you to process, to understand your reaction, to actually figure

910
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: out is it. As a younger person in my life

911
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 2: said to me recently, is it an issue or is

912
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 2: it an ish them?

913
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: That's a t shirts's going to be.

914
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,879
Speaker 2: Is it an issue or is it an ish them?

915
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: And that conversation can be useful. It's just not going

916
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: to change the other person's behavior. But if we also

917
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: have pretty low expectations for other people and their ability

918
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: to change their behavior, that can actually be pretty empowering

919
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 2: for us because it's a reminder, Oh, what I can change,

920
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 2: what I can control is my own behavior.

921
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and often I think that actually is again another

922
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: very very freeing thing, you know, just being like, okay, cool,

923
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,359
Speaker 1: So this isn't the situation isn't making me happy? It's not.

924
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: You're not responsible for others emotions and they're not responsible

925
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: for mine, do you know what I mean? I feel

926
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: like that's a very empowering thing about behavioral change. It's

927
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: just realizing that nobody's going to come and save me,

928
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna come and fix me. This is completely my obligation.

929
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,479
Speaker 1: And that's terrifying and also incredibly freeing that I don't

930
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: need to really answer to anybody if I'm like, well,

931
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: I do, but as in like that I don't, like

932
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: I can just take control, like it's up to me.

933
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: I can make the decision that I want to be

934
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: different and just go and do it.

935
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: One of the most useful things, maybe the only useful

936
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: thing we can really do, is be self accountable. One

937
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: of the most confronting chunks of psychology that I read

938
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: about is basically the body of literature that says almost

939
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: no matter how well we know a person or how

940
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,480
Speaker 2: long we have known a person, it is very difficult

941
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 2: to accurately predict someone's feelings or thoughts in response to

942
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 2: a situation. So every time you're telling yourself a story

943
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: that you have to do something because another person will

944
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: be so upset, or because they are expecting you to

945
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 2: do that, or because they will think badly of you

946
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: if you do or don't do something, actually just reminding

947
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: yourself that you might not be as good a reader

948
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: of people, You might not be, in particular a very

949
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 2: good reader of this person. It can actually free you

950
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 2: up to see a whole different set of choices.

951
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm literally I'm just thinking about I'm thinking about

952
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,160
Speaker 1: myself there and being like, yeah, that's totally right. The

953
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: amount of times I've been like, oh, my friend's totally

954
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: going to react this way, or my partner is going

955
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 1: to react this way, it's like that never. I don't

956
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: rarely think I've ever been able to predict it.

957
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 2: A fun thing that I really love about it is

958
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: that there's some emerging research that says, in certain situations,

959
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 2: the better you know someone, the worse you are likely

960
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 2: to be at predicting their thoughts or feelings. In a

961
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 2: specific situation, which could be really confronting you the world,

962
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: it suddenly feels very unstable, but I kind of love

963
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 2: it as a way of saying that people can still

964
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: surprise you, that all kinds of things could happen in

965
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 2: a relationship that feels extremely stable or extremely concrete, that

966
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 2: actually we could continue to have new things happen in

967
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 2: this relationship, and that every time I encourage people to

968
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 2: do this, go out and look for the unexpected reaction

969
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 2: in your close friends, romantic partners, colleagues that you work with.

970
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: I think it's actually a very fun thing when you

971
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 2: say to yourself. Did not expect Jemma to say that.

972
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there we go. Okay, let's talk about your book.

973
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: Can we talk about it? I would be delighted on

974
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: my bookshelf over yonder. I was going to say, I

975
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: was going to explain it, but that's not my book,

976
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 1: so you have to explain it for me and tell

977
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: us about it.

978
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 2: Let me stop by talking about why we wrote it,

979
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 2: which was pretty much the same motivation for all of

980
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 2: the work you do, which is a lot of our

981
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: efforts to change in large organizations, even small teams or

982
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:46,560
Speaker 2: if you're a solo entrepreneur, are not very successful. We're

983
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: actually disappointing much more often than we succeed. But there

984
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: is a science to success as well, which is what

985
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: we put together in the book, that groups of people

986
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: can do big things together really well. And from the

987
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 2: world of airlines, fashion, food and beverages, from restaurant kitchens

988
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: and factories, we tell all of these stories about people

989
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:13,319
Speaker 2: who have successfully experimented with the science of change and

990
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: brought it into their own lives and into the work

991
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 2: that they do. And what we're trying to do is

992
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: create a bit of a challenge to our kind of

993
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 2: very standard model in a lot of workplaces where a

994
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 2: change is coming, and we basically say to people, shut

995
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: up and change and instead invite people to be part

996
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: of the conditions where they can change successfully.

997
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,399
Speaker 1: And it's called how change Really Works. If you're listening

998
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: rather than watching, what is the I don't want to

999
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: say a fun fact? What is the most interesting thing

1000
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 1: in that book that we can get that you think

1001
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: is the most interesting. Maybe it's a story, maybe it's

1002
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: a fact. I don't know, it's up to you in

1003
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: the book that people can look forward to. More of.

1004
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 2: Original experiment behind this book was with seven thousand people

1005
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 2: around the world asking them about their feelings or reactions

1006
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 2: to change your work. We were trying to figure out

1007
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 2: the answer to the question is it true that people

1008
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 2: just don't like to change? Are people allergic to change?

1009
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 2: And the answer is no. When we ask people how

1010
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 2: do you feel about a change that is coming, about

1011
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: half the time people feel quite positive about it. And

1012
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 2: when we ask them what feelings they have, they say,

1013
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 2: I feel curious but also anxious, and so we have

1014
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 2: an openness to change and also a great deal of

1015
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 2: uncertainty about it. But I think as soon as you

1016
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 2: know that about yourself about other people, you can start

1017
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 2: to say how do I then shift the conversation really

1018
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 2: quickly from change as an obligation something you have to do,

1019
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 2: to that invitation to be better?

1020
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: That is so cool? When is it available?

1021
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: Comes out nineteenth? How change really works?

1022
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: There we go. We have one final question for you.

1023
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: We me, I always do do you do that?

1024
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,719
Speaker 2: We always? It's nice, though, isn't it.

1025
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I just I've been trying to stop

1026
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 1: doing that. That's my bad habit.

1027
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: Oh who was like in your mind? Who are the

1028
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: other like?

1029
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: Whiz well? I think it's an Australian thing that I do,

1030
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: where I don't know if you're the same way. I

1031
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: think Australians are very much like you can't take credit

1032
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: for things, so you don't say we and it's like, no,

1033
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: it's just I do you know what I mean? Like

1034
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: I do.

1035
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true because I think in the United States

1036
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: would be like much more natural for something. Yeah, I

1037
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 2: like have this question like I have. Even I think

1038
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: especially for Studlians, it's if you if someone has helped you.

1039
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 2: So for example, you're like, oh, I actually like didn't

1040
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: write the final version of this question. I can't say

1041
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 2: I have a question.

1042
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. This is why I say to people you need

1043
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: to have American friends. Like all of my like Australian

1044
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,320
Speaker 1: British friends, I was like, we need to get you.

1045
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: Everybody should be prescribed an American friend because they really

1046
00:55:57,800 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 1: I think I just have like an ability to really

1047
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: talk about themselves more accurately, even if it might come

1048
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: off as arrogant, like more accurately than people who are

1049
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: humble all the time.

1050
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,080
Speaker 2: I think that sense of the personal narrative manifest destiny

1051
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: where I'm meant to be. But one of the things

1052
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 2: I really appreciate is the hype squad. I'm like excited

1053
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:20,959
Speaker 2: to cheer for other people as well.

1054
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know we're keeping that in. I love a

1055
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: chit chat. I never get anything done because I'm always

1056
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: doing things like this and chat I'm talking to people anyways.

1057
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: My final question, I want to know what is one

1058
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 1: piece of advice that you have for people in their

1059
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked

1060
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 1: about today.

1061
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 2: We are always in the middle of the story, no

1062
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: matter what has happened to you. You're the first day

1063
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 2: of a job, or the last day of the relationship,

1064
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 2: or the really messy, annoying middle of trying to create

1065
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 2: a new habit in your life. We are always in

1066
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: the middle of the story. And if you can be

1067
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 2: curious about how the story unfolds, interested in your own

1068
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,880
Speaker 2: life and the way in which you're a character in

1069
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: other people's life, I think that also frees you up

1070
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 2: to be the hero of that story and to remind

1071
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 2: yourself that anything is possible in the rest of the story,

1072
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 2: no matter what happened in the beginning.

1073
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: And what was the biggest lesson from your twenties.

1074
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 2: In any given situation, I think there are things to

1075
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: be afraid of, and there are things to be curious

1076
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: or excited about, and that's a choice. You can choose

1077
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: to be afraid, you can choose to be excited, And

1078
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 2: it feels easier to choose to be afraid. That feels

1079
00:57:53,240 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: natural or instinctive maybe, But choosing to be excited opens

1080
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 2: up an almost unlimited set of possibilities.

1081
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. That's actually such a beautiful way

1082
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: to finish the episode. That. Yeah, like it ties everything

1083
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: up in a nice, neat boat. Choose to be excited

1084
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: about your change, Choose to be excited about your twenties,

1085
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: about your life. I feel like that's a beautiful theme.

1086
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 2: Oh thanks for saying that.

1087
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

1088
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to leave a link in the description for

1089
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 1: your book, which will actually already be out when this

1090
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 1: episode goes live. Are you doing a launch party? Are

1091
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: you doing anything fun?

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00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, what's the most fun thing that you've seen

1093
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 2: someone do?

1094
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 1: What do you do for when like a book comes

1095
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: out or something like that. But I'm a big celebrating person. Good, so,

1096
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: like I'm always if there's an excuse for to get

1097
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: people together, I will always do it. My friends like

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00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: hired a boat for their book coming out, which was

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00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: really really fun. It was actually just so fun. I

1100
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: think they just wanted to hire a boat.

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00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: In general, there's a lot of commitment. Like it's not like, yeah,

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00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 2: I will stop buy your book party. It's like you're

1103
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 2: either here when the boat goes and you are here

1104
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 2: until the end, and also going to read the book

1105
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 2: aloud to you.

1106
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: I know that. It was really like we you're kind

1107
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,920
Speaker 1: of in your hands. Yeah, we've got to just kind

1108
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: of do it. But I feel like when this is

1109
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: so random, but a bunch of my friends of now

1110
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: writing books, and I always say to people because not random,

1111
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 1: they're amazing people. But I always say, like, make sure

1112
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: that the day comes out you do something really special

1113
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 1: because it's like a really big moment. But then often

1114
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: it kind of feels kind of flat. So hopefully you've

1115
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: got something fun planned.

1116
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 2: Oh I like that. Does it have a good mental

1117
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 2: snapshot movement? Yeah? You have plenty of things to do,

1118
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 2: Like we have plenty of media things to do on

1119
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: the nineteenth of May. One thing we're going to do,

1120
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 2: which I'm excited for, is have you spent time in

1121
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: New York?

1122
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:43,479
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1123
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 2: Love so Barnes and Noble on Fifth Avenue. We are

1124
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 2: going to do the window display over the holidays, but

1125
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 2: we are going to go there that day and sign

1126
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of copies, which I think is emotionally very

1127
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: meaningful for the authors. It's maybe like less meaningful for

1128
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: everyone else, but I feel I'm excited for that.

1129
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you've got it all sorted. I feel like that's

1130
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 1: going to be a fun mental snaphop. Because when my

1131
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 1: book came out, I just hung out. It's so bad,

1132
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: and I was like, this huge thing just happened for me,

1133
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: and I was like, so maybe I'll go to the

1134
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: grocery store of my dog.

1135
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: You've been working on it for a long time as well,

1136
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:18,959
Speaker 2: so that feeling is like, well, it's like it's done.

1137
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: I'm over it.

1138
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very It's like when you get a degree.

1139
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: It's like when you graduate, like so many things have

1140
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 1: like the work work, work, work, worker. Then it's like

1141
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:28,960
Speaker 1: it's just done, and it's like out, you've got the

1142
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: piece of paper, You've the books out in the world,

1143
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: like this thing is the project.

1144
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I agree with that. No, you have to

1145
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 2: celebrate it.

1146
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely.

1147
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: One of my favorite chapters in the book is called

1148
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:44,760
Speaker 2: ending Change, because we think a lot about the beginning

1149
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: and We never think about the end like okay, like

1150
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: this is this is done? How do we end change?

1151
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: Really? Well, there we go. Yeah, have a party that's

1152
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: on a boat. That's the answer. That's that's a solution. Yeah,

1153
01:00:58,080 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: you can take that chapter out. I just I just

1154
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: gave it away for free. Done. Well, I will make

1155
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: sure that if you're listening you know exactly what about

1156
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: Julia's book and where to see her ted talks and

1157
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: where to see what she is up to. Thank you

1158
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: if you have made it this far. If you are

1159
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: listening on Spotify, leave a comment down below what is

1160
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 1: the behavior that you were trying to change? Whatever it is?

1161
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 1: Where you are going to be an open book of

1162
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: promises to each other and promises to ourselves. You can

1163
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: of course follow us on Instagram. You can watch episodes

1164
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: on Netflix. You can do all of those things. There

1165
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: are like a million links in the episode description at

1166
01:01:32,120 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 1: this stage. So go there, explore. We have a substack.

1167
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: There's lots to be done with the podcast if you

1168
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: want to go even further on this episode or all

1169
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: of our other episodes. But of course, as I say,

1170
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,880
Speaker 1: as we wrap up every single topic, be safe, be kind,

1171
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: be gentle to yourself. We will talk very very soon.