1 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Lyra. What do you know about Jimmy Hoffa. 2 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: There have been several well known movies made about him, 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: and I feel like I've heard about Jimmy Hoffa my 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 2: entire life because he's associated with the Teamsters and the 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: mafia and JFK in some weird way, and a bunch 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: of other conspiracy theories. 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with 9 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect 10 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about 11 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy and his pursuit of Jimmy Hoffa. 12 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: Bobby Kennedy was, of course the original RFK meaning RFK 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 3: Junior's father for all our younger listeners, and as a 14 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: senator and as JFK's Attorney General, one of his signature 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 3: causes was taking on organized crime. At one point, Bobby 16 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 3: bragged about the fact that prosecutions for racketeering by his 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 3: Justice Department rose by three hundred percent and convictions of 18 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 3: organized criminals grew by three hundred and fifty percent. 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 1: And Bobby's enemy number one was Jimmy Hoffa. 20 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 3: Jimmy Hoffa was a major figure in the International Brotherhood 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 3: of Teamsters and eventually rose through the ranks to be 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: the president. He was also quite publicly in bed with 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 3: the mob. He used two hundred and fifty million dollars 24 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 3: in pension funds to curry favor with the mafia and 25 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 3: make a profit for himself. He also once threatened to 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: break both of Bobby's arms. 27 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: So the feud between Bobby Kennedy and Jimmy Hoffa was 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: not just about politics. It was personal, and its aftermath 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: hunted the Kennedys for years. 30 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 3: This week, to help us unpack all of this, were 31 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: joined by Dan O'Sullivan, co host of The Outfit, a 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: podcast about the mafia and their surprising and on how 33 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: society works. Dan, thanks for joining us. 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 3: I was wondering what got you into the mafia history 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 3: and how the mafia history has impacted American history. 37 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for that question. 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 4: And it's such a polite way of saying, why are 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 4: you so weird about this topic? 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's funny because it's like us with 41 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 3: the Kennedys, right, all right, Yeah, No, it's probably for 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: a lot of the same reasons. 43 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 4: You guys are so interested in the Kennedy's right that 44 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 4: you know, on my show, The Outfit with a Lot 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 4: of Hope Levenson, our pitch is always every week what 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 4: a mob story says about the hidden history of America. 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 4: And that is how I view organized crime, that the 48 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 4: history of organized crime in America is kind of this 49 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 4: rosetta stone to understanding a lot of things about it 50 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 4: that are not commonly understood. The era we're going to 51 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 4: talk about, to me is like it's the golden era 52 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 4: of the mafia and of the height of its power influence. 53 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: I don't think organized crime has gone away. I think 54 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: it's just changed since then. 55 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 4: But this is sort of to me when we think 56 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 4: of a mafia exercising power, this was the height of it. 57 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: And when we first wanted to talk about specifically the 58 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: rivalry between RFK and Jimmy Hoffa, which we will absolutely 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: get into, but when we were first talking off Mike, 60 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: you were saying, you know, I can talk more broadly 61 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: about the relationship between the Kennedys and the mafia. So yeah, 62 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: when you hear Kennedy is and the mob What comes 63 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: to mind, Well, I. 64 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 4: Think for a lot of people, it will be what 65 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,920 Speaker 4: we're going to talk about, right RFK being a mob 66 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 4: buster and all that, which I think is a little 67 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 4: more complicated than that. But for a lot of people 68 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 4: it's going to be Joseph Kennedy the patriarch, and specifically 69 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 4: the idea that he was a bootlegger, a rum runner. 70 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 4: Now he was setting himself up towards the end of 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 4: prohibition to be a legal alcohol magnate and essentially buying 72 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 4: low and selling high. I think people would be surprised 73 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 4: by the amounts of business interests that Joseph Kennedy, you know, 74 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 4: father of John Kennedy, father of Bobby Kennedy, had a 75 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 4: Hollywood mogul, heavily involved and I think it was RKAO 76 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 4: had an affair for many years with Gloria Swanson. So 77 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 4: his business interest ranged all over the world, and of 78 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: course that he also had a ranging career. He was 79 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 4: ambassador to the UK prior to World War Two, ardent 80 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 4: supporter of appeasing Hitler, not the finest moment, but essentially 81 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 4: as this kind of tycoon, he was very well sourced 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,679 Speaker 4: and had many contacts in the underworld at that time 83 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 4: that for instance, he had what was at that time 84 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 4: the largest office building in America, the Merchandise Mart Chicago, 85 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 4: still there, and that led to him forging ties not 86 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 4: only to the political machine in Chicago, but also to 87 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 4: the mafia there. 88 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: And then how did that transfer to the next generation 89 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: into their political ambitions. I mean, you read one of 90 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: the things that sort of repeated as you read about 91 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: Bobby's feud with Hafa and Bobby's taking on the mafia 92 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: is that ironically the mafia quote unquote helped elect jfk 93 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:01,640 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 94 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 4: So that would be a reference to what happened in 95 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 4: nineteen sixty, which is the razor thin election between Richard 96 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 4: Nixon and John F. 97 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: Kennedy. 98 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 4: Obviously John was not supposed to be the president, right, 99 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 4: it was Joe the pilot, but after he died. I mean, 100 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,559 Speaker 4: I don't know if your dad's are like this, mine 101 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 4: is not that the next in line had to be president. 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 4: But what that refers to is the razor type margin 103 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: and the accusation that Joseph Kennedy used his influence with 104 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 4: the mafia, in particular in Chicago, where Illinois being a 105 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: battlefield stayed at that time to sway the election towards 106 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 4: Kennedy to beat Nixon, and that, of course the mob 107 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 4: would get something out of it. And there's a lot 108 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 4: of controversy for whether that deal happened. I think it did. 109 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 4: I would not have done that if I was the mafia, 110 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: given what we're going to talk about in today's episode, 111 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 4: and given that Richard Nixon surprisingly also has some deep 112 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 4: organized crime ties. The famous stories about grave yards full 113 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 4: of voters and election shenanigans occurring in Chicago, which just 114 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 4: tipped Illinois into the JFK column, I think are mostly true. 115 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 4: And to talk about the emissary to that next generation. 116 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 4: One of the main connections between organized crime and John F. 117 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 4: Kennedy was Frank Sinatra, who was very close to both 118 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 4: and at that time was a big Kennedy booster. They 119 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 4: would have a falling out later, but Frank Sinatra was 120 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 4: often used by organized crime as a kind of cutout 121 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 4: to the legitimate world, and Frank Sinatra being a mob group, 122 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 4: Hee was happy to play that role. So in nineteen 123 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 4: sixty when the election happens, it's all funding games until 124 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 4: he appoints Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General. 125 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: I think something we will run into a lot, and 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 1: which we certainly did in trying to do research for 127 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: this episode, is the inconsistency of all historical sources, totally 128 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: primary sources. So I'm wondering, you know, as someone who 129 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: has thought a lot about this, how do you approach 130 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: deciding what is the truth and what isn't when all 131 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: these things are happening behind the fifteen closed doors. Everyone 132 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: is intentionally sort of weaponizing misinformation in the press and 133 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 1: privately took further their own narrative. 134 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 4: It's such a great question. I'm doing some research on 135 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 4: some episodes about al Capone coming up, and I'm realizing, Oh, 136 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 4: a bunch of things that, even after a lot of 137 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 4: study I thought were true, are not true. So many 138 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 4: myths get repeated and kind of reified into being the 139 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 4: reality that are not true, or you can trace them 140 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: to one source. I mean, the jagger Hoover wearing a 141 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 4: dress thing that we've all heard, right, what's. 142 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: The source of that? 143 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 4: The source is actually in a quite good book by 144 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 4: a journalist, Sam Anthony Summers, but it's just one witness 145 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 4: saying this, right. I don't think it happened, right, So 146 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 4: that's a perfect example. Are there corroborating witnesses? 147 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: Right? 148 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 4: Are multiple people saying the same thing even though they're 149 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 4: not in the same place. Right, primary firsthand documents, right, 150 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: you know Foyer documents from the FBI. Well, an FBI 151 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,160 Speaker 4: report is just an FBI special agent telexing it in, 152 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 4: but that can be important corroboration, right. So you know, 153 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 4: I always think of this when I see how easily 154 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 4: misinformation spreads, you know, online. It's really hard, it's really 155 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 4: really hard, and you have to read a lot of stuff, 156 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: and I think develop also a muscle to say this 157 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 4: doesn't sound as believable. And if you want to build 158 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 4: up that muscle, read the book The Irishman is based 159 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 4: on and just try to poke holes in it. That'll 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 4: be a really good exercise because it won't be hard 161 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 4: and anyone can do that. 162 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 5: We'll be back with more United States of Kennedy after 163 00:08:39,840 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 5: this break. 164 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: And we're back with United States of Kennedy. Okay. 165 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: I do think we should get into who Jimmy Hoffa is. 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:07,239 Speaker 3: I had name recognition for him, but didn't know exactly 167 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: what his story was. So who was Jimmy Hoffa? 168 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, so James Hoffa would ascend to be the president 169 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 4: of the Air National Brotherhood of Teamsters, which originated as 170 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 4: a union the latter half of the nineteenth century for 171 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 4: carriage drivers. And you know, obviously they didn't have trucks 172 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 4: back then, and over time it morphed into being truckers, 173 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 4: both local truckers and long haul truckers, these kinds of people, 174 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 4: but it also could be cab drivers. They tried to 175 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 4: organize a lot of anything involving a truck. The name 176 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 4: recognition is interesting in that he was one of the 177 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 4: most famous people in the country. I think the Teamsters 178 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 4: at its height had more union members than the largest 179 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 4: union today has. Given the population change, that's quite a change. 180 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 4: The union density was much higher. And you know, part 181 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 4: of the reason he's so well known is a union 182 00:09:55,080 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 4: of truckers is incredibly powerful with strike threats, the threat 183 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 4: of what they call secondary strikes. Right, So let's say, 184 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 4: for instance, a longshoreman union goes on strike, they say 185 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 4: they're not going to unload ships. You get some scabs 186 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 4: in there and the trucks keep picking it up, no problem. 187 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 4: But if trucks won't come to the terminal either, now 188 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: you have a real problem. And that power he had, 189 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 4: he wielded very mightily, was heavily politically connected. 190 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 1: But as always, if a union. 191 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 4: Is corrupted and it's powerful, the corrupt masters of that 192 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 4: union can use that same power for their own enrichment, 193 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 4: and that, unfortunately, is what was also happening with the 194 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 4: teamsters from an early point in Jimmy Hoffe's career. 195 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. 196 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 3: That's the part that took me a few run throughs 197 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 3: to understand, is where's the line between Jimmy Hoffa's corruption 198 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 3: and then just straight up organized crime. 199 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 4: That's a great question. I would defer to the journalist 200 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 4: who knows more about Jimmy Hoffer than probably anyone else, 201 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 4: a guy named Dan Maldea, who has been literally investigating 202 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 4: the Jimmy Hoffa case for I think fifty one years. 203 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 4: He has a great substack too, which I don't say 204 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 4: that sentence often, but you can check that out. His 205 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: view is that Jimmy Hoffa was essentially a racketeer himself, 206 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 4: a gangster. That there's been some revisionism of Jimmy Hoffa. 207 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 4: As you know, he got the nineteen sixty four Master 208 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 4: Freight agreement that was a huge national contract for truckers, 209 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 4: but he was compromised from the beginning, he was ultimately 210 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 4: hurting Teamsters, and as near as I can tell, the 211 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: common explanation for when the mob enters Jimmy Hoff's life 212 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 4: is in nineteen forty one, his base of power was 213 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 4: a local Teamsters local in Detroit. Two ninety nine, there 214 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 4: was an attempt by the newly formed CIO later to 215 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 4: become part of the AFL CIO to launch what they 216 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 4: call a raid on his locals members. A raid in 217 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 4: union parlance is we're going to go in and try 218 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 4: to steal your members, essentially for our union. To beat 219 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 4: back this effort, he enlisted mafia members in Detroit through 220 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 4: an interesting source. He had a former girlfriend who was Sicilian, 221 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 4: Sylvia Pagano, and she connected him to the mobsters. She 222 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 4: was also mother to a guy named Chucky O'Brien who 223 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 4: would become like Jimmy hoffa's foster son and may have 224 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 4: played an unwinning role in his disappearance. So he had 225 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 4: very very close ties to Italian Americans and to the 226 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 4: mafia from an early point in his career, and they 227 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 4: never went away. I mean, this is the thing with 228 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 4: the mob. If you let them in once they're there 229 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 4: forever you can't get them out again. And so from 230 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 4: that point on, mobsters had run of the place. As 231 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 4: his national ambitions grew, this grew to include mobsters all 232 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 4: over the country because obviously he needs support from every 233 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 4: geographic region of the country to supplant the prior president. 234 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 4: And so they're treating it like an ATM basically the 235 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 4: Teamsters pension and benefits funds. 236 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: And how is this viewed both inside the unions and 237 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: by the general public? I mean, obviously it hits a 238 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: fever pitch when he's being you know, interrogated on television, 239 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: But before that, is it on some level and open secret? 240 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: Is it something that there's a disappointment about within the unions? 241 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: How is he seen? 242 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 2: So? 243 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 4: First off, he's an absolute autocrat within the Teamsters union itself, right, 244 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 4: and this was not his creation entirely. This had been 245 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 4: what previous presidents had built up. But the idea of 246 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 4: union democracy, I mean, is a very important one that 247 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 4: the Teamsters still have issues with, which is all right, 248 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,199 Speaker 4: our members get to determine our leadership and what happens, 249 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 4: you know, what the leadership does. And this was not 250 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 4: really the case with the Teamsters that if you were 251 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 4: a dissident Teamster member or organizer or local leader, you 252 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 4: could expect violence to be visited upon you, right, So 253 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 4: you know, look, he was a very charismatic guy obviously, 254 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 4: and very talented and hard working in a number of ways, 255 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 4: so he did have a genuine base of support, but 256 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 4: it was also aided by the fact that they would 257 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 4: really brutally crush any dissent outside of the Teamsters. It's interesting, 258 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 4: right because a lot of union leaders who have more 259 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 4: integrity and be less corrupt tended to be more left 260 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 4: wing and progressive as well. So again, the environment at 261 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 4: this time of anti communism I think is an important context, 262 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 4: right that Jimmy Hoffa was not one of these guys 263 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 4: playing foot see with the Communist Party or with more 264 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 4: left wing causes. So that's good to a lot of 265 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 4: what they call hard hats and politicians. And really the 266 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 4: hearings targeting the mafia, I mean, there's the Kafaver hearings 267 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 4: in nineteen fifty to fifty one, which kind of demolishes 268 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 4: the lie that there is no mafia, but the other 269 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: hearings only really begin after all the scare stuff kind 270 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 4: of runs its course. They need a new coke basically, 271 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 4: and that's what they turn to. 272 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 3: So that brings us to RFK because he is trying 273 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 3: to make a name for himself. He is appointed to 274 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: this subcommittee that was previously McCarthy's committee is now McClellan yes, hm, 275 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: And they are focused on first Dave Beck, right, or is. 276 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: It Beck and haff A? 277 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: Are they aware of Haffa at the same level as 278 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: Dave Beck, who's the president. 279 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 4: It's really funny how this happens. In the drug war today, 280 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 4: we have what's called the Kingpin strategy. The idea is 281 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 4: we take out a Choppo Guzman, right, bring them back 282 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 4: for trial, and it's going to disable his drug cartel, 283 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 4: the Cineloa cartel. And in fact, what happens every time 284 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 4: is violence increases because all the lower run guys are 285 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 4: going to compete to control as much of it as 286 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 4: they can. I'll talk a little bit about how Bobby 287 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 4: Kennedy got there in a second. But Dave Beck was 288 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 4: Jimmy Hoff's predecessor as president of the Teamsters union, and 289 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 4: his main thing was he was more personally corrupt in 290 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: a way than Haffa was. Like I think he died 291 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 4: a millionaire. He was from the Pacific Northwest, not an 292 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 4: area with much influenced mob activity, and he was kind 293 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 4: of an easy target. He was so obviously financially corrupt 294 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 4: that Kennedy, focusing first on Beck, did succeed in ultimately 295 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 4: dislodging him. However, again, like with the Kingford strategy, what 296 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 4: do you do well, Jimmy Hoffer was trying to replace 297 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 4: Dave Beck, So you aided him immensely in rising to 298 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 4: the national presidency, and Kennedy regretted that after the fact. 299 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 4: You know, so what Bobby Kennedy's role was at this 300 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 4: time his brother was now a Senator from Massachusetts. Bobby Kennedy, 301 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 4: we have this conception of him as this sainted liberal hero, 302 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: and it does not a line with any look at 303 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 4: his record that I'm aware of. If you read Rick 304 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 4: Pearlstein's Nixon Land, he is an absolutely cynical figure, even 305 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 4: in his later iteration where he's a progressive Icut And 306 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 4: at that time in particular, I mean, he was very 307 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 4: upset that he had lost out on being chief counsel 308 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 4: to Joseph McCarthy on the Senate subcommittee. That job went 309 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 4: to Roy Cone. You know, Donald Trump's later attorney. One 310 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 4: of the worst people ever basically, so this is who 311 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 4: Bobby Kennedy lost the job to right and on the 312 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 4: Rackets Committee which forms later under an anti union senator 313 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 4: from Arkansas, John McClellan. Then he gets the Chief Council job, 314 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 4: and like Roy Cohne with McCarthy, is basically given a 315 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 4: lot of power, and this is sometimes called the Rackets Committee. 316 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 4: And he starts delving into the underworld, helps take out 317 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: Dave Beck, and then his attention turns to Jimmy Hoffeck 318 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 4: because the Teamsters just seem like a can of worms 319 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 4: that has endless worms in it. 320 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. In terms of Bobby's political career, the 321 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: two I would say big picture things that I came 322 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: out of this research thinking is a this entire crusade 323 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: was so clearly a way to make his name rather 324 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: than some sort of deep moral belief that he had. 325 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: And then the second one, and correct me if I'm wrong, 326 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: is that it seems to me like he left the 327 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: situation way worse than he found it because he first 328 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: focused on Beck when Haffa was quote unquote worse, and 329 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: then focused on Haffa, and then Fitzimmons came along and 330 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: was miles worse. So if the goal was to get 331 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: mafia influence out of Labor, he absolutely failed at the end. 332 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: Not to jump ahead, but no, no, it's a great point. 333 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 4: So he formed what was called a get haff A squad, right, 334 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 4: And again, Haffa really is a gangster, right, so he 335 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 4: is very skilled at evading. If you watch the hearings 336 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 4: of him being questioned by Kennedy, which I highly recommend 337 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 4: you can do, you can watch them all online. It's 338 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 4: really funny because Kennedy, I'll ask him a question about 339 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 4: do you recall this phone call? He'll play the phone 340 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 4: call for him after Hoffer says, yeah, no, I don't 341 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 4: really remember, and then he'll play it. He says, yeah, 342 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 4: I have no recollection of that, and he just does 343 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 4: this over and over again, and it makes Kennedy really mad. 344 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 4: Kennedy is kind of out of his element in this stuff. 345 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: He's right on like ninety percent of the stuff, but 346 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 4: he's in nept and maybe he doesn't need to be 347 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 4: skilled because it's really about raising his profile, raising his 348 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 4: family's profile. John Kennedy is on that subcommittee at that time, 349 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 4: so maybe it's just that. But the questioning is kind 350 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 4: of pointless. He'll get angry and harangue the guys. He'll 351 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 4: even taunt some of the mafia guys. He'll do things 352 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 4: like question a witness in private, find out they're going 353 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 4: to take the fifth a lot, and then put them 354 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: on TV even though they know that already, to make 355 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 4: them look bad. So RFK himself, you know, it's probably 356 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 4: not unlike what Jimmy Hoffa did, where he thought he 357 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 4: was embracing a good cause and he had to do 358 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 4: it this way to do it, but it sort of 359 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 4: corrupts the whole enterprise. 360 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: It doesn't root out the mafia. 361 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: I know Dan Moldea, who I mentioned earlier, thinks highly 362 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 4: of Rfk's mob fighting stuff. I don't really Again, he 363 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 4: knows more about it than anyone on earth, So take 364 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 4: what I'm saying with a grain of salt. But you're right, 365 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 4: I mean mob control of the teamsters actually gets worse 366 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 4: after he finally does get Haffa. 367 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 5: We're going to take a short break, stay with. 368 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 6: Us, and we're back with the United States of Kennedy. 369 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit more about the actual hearing, 370 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: because I'm trying to, of course, remember the timeline here 371 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: there were hearings that were before JFK was president, and 372 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: then there were hearings when Bobby was Attorney General under JFK. 373 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: So what are the kind of big medium moments from 374 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: those hearings? What do they accomplish? What are the lines 375 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: everyone talks about? Famously, Pafa uses the I don't recall 376 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: tactic a lot, but he also doesn't play the fifth Yeah, 377 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: which is a whole other thing. So where do we 378 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: start and where do we end with those hearings? 379 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 4: So the McClelland Committee, like I said, which is also 380 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 4: known as the Rackets Committee, it's ten senators sit on it. 381 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 4: I think of them only one or two could be 382 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 4: even considered pro union. Other members on the committee include 383 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 4: Barry Goldwater and Joseph McCarthy, who was very close with 384 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 4: the Kennedy family. I think he dated one of their 385 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 4: sisters in fact, So again not always fitting with the 386 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 4: idea we have of them right, But I believe it 387 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 4: starts in nineteen fifty seven. It first targets the Teamsters 388 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 4: and Dave Beck. Dave Beck is dislodged, Haffa replaces him. 389 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 4: They can take you with Haffa. Interestingly, this committee goes 390 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 4: after other unions, but it's not very successful with any 391 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 4: other unions other than the Teamsters, and it's dissolved in fact, 392 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 4: in part because they can't really get anything together and 393 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 4: the labor establishment takes pains to distance themselves from Haffa 394 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 4: and the Teamsters. The Teamsters are expelled from the American 395 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 4: Federation of Labor in an effort that's led by Walter Ruther, 396 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 4: the head of the United Auto Workers, who is everything 397 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:35,479 Speaker 4: Jimmy Hoffa isn't. Ruther is like almost killed multiple times. 398 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 4: Very brave, progressive hero, really deserves to be much more 399 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 4: well known. So also the effect of television, right the 400 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 4: cafaver hearings and the McCarthy hearings had pioneered this, but 401 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 4: this is made for TV, And because McClellan has delegated 402 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 4: so much authority to RFK, it's mostly his voice you're 403 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 4: hearing questioning these guys. So in terms of the highlights, 404 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's really like reality TV. It's kind of ridiculous. 405 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: It's like, you know, Hoffa not pleading the fifth so 406 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 4: to avoid perjury charges, he answers in all these bizarre ways. 407 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 4: Sometimes he's doing it just to literally run out the clock. 408 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 4: Like he'll talk very secuitously, like well, and of course 409 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 4: at that time it was ordered that I should be 410 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 4: made to appear, and like it's just like wasting their time, 411 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 4: and then Kennedy kind of badgering the witnesses honestly. 412 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: At one point he says. 413 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 4: It must beg a belief that you don't remember things 414 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 4: that any man on the street would remember things, like 415 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 4: you know, that's his great moment. It's really quite stupid. 416 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 4: Later hearings where they drag all the mobsters out, it's 417 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 4: a bit more sinister. We're talking every mafia boss you 418 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 4: can name in the country coming out, and they all 419 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 4: wear sunglasses. They plead the fifth a lot, and they 420 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 4: just look like this sinister cast of characters. One moment 421 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 4: I remember is Robert Kennedy quizzing Sam g and Kanna, 422 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 4: who was a boss with the Chicago mob and geeing 423 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 4: kind of laughs at something and rf cases, I thought, 424 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 4: only little girls giggle, mister g and Kanna, that's a 425 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 4: stupid thing to say. For a bunch of reasons. I 426 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 4: just also don't say that, don't ever say that. That's 427 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 4: not a good idea. So very much for prime time 428 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 4: kind of pro wrestling, antics, you. 429 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:22,640 Speaker 3: Know, and Haffa is openly playing mind games with Bobby. 430 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they call it the stare. That's it. 431 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 4: I mean, if you watch the videos, Kennedy will ask 432 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 4: a question and Hafa clearly is wearing short sleeve dress 433 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 4: shirts under his blazer, and his blazer arms will ride 434 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 4: up so his bare arms are exposed. 435 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: To the midway. It's just like a cave man like. 436 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 4: He's obviously not built to wear a suit, which again 437 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 4: is endearing to the audience, right, because what you have 438 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 4: is this guy with this sort of weird He's from Indiana, 439 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,720 Speaker 4: but I've never heard anyone with this accent other than him. 440 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 4: He has this weird Midwest accent, and he's answering this 441 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 4: guy with this ridiculous Boston Brahmin accent or whatever, and 442 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 4: he seems to be outsmarting him in the stare. He'll 443 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 4: take a few seconds after Kennedy's done, staring at him 444 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 4: as if to say, you are the stupidest guy on earth, right, 445 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 4: and I have nothing but contempt for you. And a 446 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 4: lot of audiences and teamsters and blue collar people really 447 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,719 Speaker 4: like this that it seems like he's outsmarting this preppy, 448 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 4: supercilious guy, which is not entirely wrong. I don't think, 449 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 4: you know, he never really pins him down. 450 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: This keeps coming up with the Kennedy's a lot. All 451 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: these stories are always different American archetypes going up against 452 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: one another. Bobby is sort of the privileged Boston lawyer, 453 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: and then Hafa is the hardened gangster or something. And 454 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: then obviously, when it becomes a media event, everyone at 455 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: home relates to the person they most want to win. 456 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: Speaking of which, how was this all covered in the press. 457 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: Was Bobby from the beginning scene as a hero? Did 458 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: people cheer him on? Was it divided along class distinctions? Yet? 459 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 4: So my grandparents for Irish ingrants and John Kennedy's portrait 460 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 4: literally was hanging in their homes. I see the similar 461 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 4: passion among black voters for Obama as the only close 462 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 4: thing today. It means so much more than it does 463 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 4: to other people. So they could sort of do no 464 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 4: wrong with a lot of Irish Catholic voters. 465 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: Obviously, Bobby. 466 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting No one gives a shit about Bobby, 467 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 4: right Like Jack is going to be the one, So 468 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 4: this is him trying to get his own thing going. 469 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 4: His father certainly doesn't care. He has his one crown 470 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 4: prince that he wants in. So this is Bobby trying 471 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 4: to get the world to care about him, trying to 472 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 4: get something for himself, which I think explains all this 473 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 4: passion and anger going into this. Even though it's all 474 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 4: kind of a nepley handled in terms of the reaction 475 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 4: to it from the public, I think it breaks down 476 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 4: a lot of not evenly along class lines, because obviously 477 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 4: the Catholic thing, the the HAFA leadership thing both appeals 478 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 4: to different segments. I will tell you another master that 479 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 4: RFK is serving here though, is interestingly a Southern anti 480 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 4: union agenda, right, which is much of what is behind 481 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 4: the subcommittee, and there's been increasing legislation throughout the fifties 482 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 4: that is anti union. One of the major consequences of 483 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 4: the committee is another round of anti union legislation which 484 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 4: sort of hardens that package called TAFT hardly. So, you know, 485 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 4: Bobby and Daring himself as well in some respects to 486 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 4: the business world. 487 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: So how much of this was specifically anti union rather 488 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: than anti corruption. When you're politically progressive, you think in 489 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: these conspiratorial ways where you're like, well, yes, Haffa was bad, 490 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: but they were going after the unions because they were 491 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: anti labor or something, and I don't want to fall 492 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: into that trap. But right, what was the I mean, 493 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,640 Speaker 1: you think of Democrats as being pro union traditionally, especially 494 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: in that time. What was the undercurrent of just labor 495 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: as labor that was running through this whole era. 496 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 4: So a big issue with the committee, the McClellan committee, 497 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 4: was it seemed to place all the blame for any 498 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 4: labor racketeering, any corruption on the unions, which is really 499 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 4: fifty percent of the story. Employers are also equally victim 500 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 4: and co conspirator in labor racketeering. In fact, you could 501 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 4: argue more responsible in the sense that union members are 502 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 4: the ones who lose out on any kind of corrupt 503 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 4: deal between an employer and a corrupted union. 504 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 3: Right. 505 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 4: We just recorded an episode on the Disney Animators strike 506 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 4: which involved the mafia, and what you had there was 507 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 4: an attempt to get Hollywood union members under the control 508 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 4: of the Iazzi, which at that time was controlled by 509 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 4: the mob. And that's going to benefit all the movie studios. 510 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 4: Are going to actually save money striking deals with that union, 511 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 4: right because they don't have to pay any good benefits 512 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 4: They really just have to pay bribes to a bunch 513 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 4: of gangsters, and that's ultimately more inexpensive than doing the 514 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 4: right thing by their employees. So this is not a 515 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,959 Speaker 4: part of the McClellan committee hearings, right, They're not going 516 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 4: to get into that at all. It's not really any 517 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 4: employer sided stuff, and any honest accounting of union corruption 518 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 4: should do that because that's where the money is. 519 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: Right. 520 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,239 Speaker 4: It's great to loot pension funds and do all that, 521 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 4: but labor racketeering is about extracting payoffs from these companies 522 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 4: in exchange for doing nothing for your union members. They 523 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 4: ignored that completely. In terms of the political layout at 524 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: that time, you know, it's interesting Democrats, certainly northern Midwestern 525 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 4: Democrats would be pro union, but this was still a 526 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 4: time where we had Dixiecrats Southern and they are not 527 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: pro union, right, so there is a cleavage in the 528 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 4: party between those wings, and you know, it is possible 529 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 4: able to cultivate those politicians too, which this committee really did. 530 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: Is going after organized crime in unions almost a cop 531 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 1: out in the sense that you are both being pro 532 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: labor in that you are trying to clean it up, 533 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,479 Speaker 1: but also being anti labor in the sense that you 534 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 1: are focusing on corruption in labor rather than in big 535 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: business or whatever. Was that part of the thinking. 536 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and you hear this in the hearings 537 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 4: when you hear McLellan decrying what hoff is doing, and 538 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, but you don't support unions either, Like 539 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 4: he's saying, oh yourself, and he has this really deep 540 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 4: Southern voice. 541 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 1: It's like, well, you don't care either. Right. 542 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 4: So, on the one hand, did Jimmy hoff A conspire 543 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 4: with the gangster Johnny Dio to create these what they 544 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 4: call paper unions, fake unions to run up his vote count? 545 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: Yes? 546 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 4: Did Johnny Dio later throw acid in the face of 547 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 4: a labor journalist, Yes, do you actually care about your 548 00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 4: union members? 549 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: In New York? These tax cab drivers were trying to 550 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: get represented. 551 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 4: No, you do not get real So yeah, I mean 552 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 4: Ronald Reagan would do this later, right, the mob prosecutions 553 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 4: of the eighties under his Justice Department. You know, it 554 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: was not a coincidence that so many of them went 555 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 4: after corrupt unions because he also hated unions. 556 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: Right, they were still corrupt, though, it must be. 557 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 3: Said, it kind of reminds me of Haffa's argument, or 558 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: maybe the argument of people who remained supporters of Haffa's, 559 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 3: that you know, his involvement with the mob wasn't different 560 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: from those who are prosecuting him. 561 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, it's like the Kennedy's had 562 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: mob ties. 563 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: And Hoffma makes the argument that, well, if the politicians 564 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 3: are in bed with the mob, and if everybody who's 565 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 3: in charge is in bed with them, then why shouldn't 566 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 3: I be? 567 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: Then I should be also. 568 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it has to be really emphasized. The mafia 569 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 4: at that time was a major institution in America, right, 570 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 4: and there were certain parts of business where it was 571 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,239 Speaker 4: just endemic, you know, fucking being one of them and 572 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 4: had been for a long time, so cleaning it up 573 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 4: would have required effort of the sort. 574 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: It must be said. 575 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 4: RFK did try to undertake with aggressive prosecution, and for 576 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 4: a time as Attorney General he did have results. So 577 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 4: that's where he deserves a good deal of credit. I 578 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 4: think as attorney general really aggressively prosecuting these guys. And 579 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 4: if you look at that early sixties period, it does 580 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 4: sort of give a glimpse of an alternate reality where 581 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 4: the mafia had its back broken in the sixties, it 582 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 4: was not inconceivable and not to go totally off the rails. 583 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 4: That ends with November twenty second, nineteen sixty three, where 584 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 4: as Jimmy Hoffe says to a reporter in Nashville that day, 585 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 4: Bobby Kennedy is just another lawyer now, which is kind 586 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 4: of a chilling thing to say, to be honest. 587 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 5: We'll be back with more United States at Kennedy after 588 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 5: this break. 589 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: And we're back with United States of Kennedy. 590 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: Now that we're here, can you tell us about the 591 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: Jimmy Hoffa conspiracy theory around JFK's assassination. 592 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 4: Oh boy, okay, that's a big question. You could get 593 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 4: lost in the sauce in this for quite a while, 594 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 4: and I have. I'll give an anecdote by way of 595 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 4: introducing this. Dan Maldea, the journalist I mentioned earlier who's 596 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 4: covered this from the beginning. He had a really funny 597 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 4: story where he's talking to Jimmy Hoffa, junior Haffa's son 598 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,080 Speaker 4: who later becomes Teamster's president himself. This was in the 599 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 4: seventies after his father's disappearance, and Maldea says to him, Look, 600 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 4: I'm going to say in my book that I believe 601 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 4: Jimmy Hoffa was involved in the murder of John F. 602 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: Kennedy, which he has done a lot of reporting on. 603 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 4: And Jimmy Hoffa Junior says, Oh, come on with that, 604 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 4: that's such bullshit. Everyone knows my dad was friends with 605 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 4: Jack Ruby, so what. And Maldea says, wait what, He 606 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 4: had no idea, So you volunteered this information to him 607 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 4: that his father knew Jack Ruby and was friends with him. 608 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 4: Obviously Jack Ruby assassin of Lee Harvey Oswald. So I'll 609 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 4: try to restrict myself to saying Maldea's reporting confirm this. 610 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 4: It's been confirmed by other reporters. Jimmy Hoffa at the 611 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 4: very least conspired to kill Robert Kennedy. According to an 612 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 4: informant who later testified against Haffa in Tennessee in the 613 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 4: trial that did send haff. 614 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: At a prison. 615 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 4: This guy Edward Grady Parton, and Parton said he talked 616 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 4: with me about blowing up Bobby Kennedy's house, about killing 617 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 4: him in his driveway, that this was discussed, that there's 618 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 4: corroborating evidence for this. Haffa is obviously in between the 619 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 4: underworld and the legitimate world. 620 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: There are ties. 621 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 4: Between teamsters and the mob obviously throughout the country, including 622 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: with a guy like Jack Ruby, who made numerous calls 623 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 4: in the weeks leading up to the assassination. Two guys 624 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,360 Speaker 4: connected to not just organized crime but also the teamsters. 625 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 4: And I know this all sounds a little crazy, but 626 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 4: people should look into the second Congressional investigation of the 627 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 4: Kennedy assassination, which is not as well known as the 628 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 4: Warren Commission, which really more broadly looks at the evidence 629 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 4: and finds evidence for a conspiracy and one involving organized 630 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 4: crime in HAFA. I think it was Bob Blakey who 631 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 4: said that it was a mob hit, and he's the 632 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 4: chief investigator for that second one. And what's the motivation. 633 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 4: The motivation's revenge. Jimmy Hoff is a brutal, vindictive person 634 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 4: who's been harangued for years, and this theory goes that 635 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 4: he aided the mafia was also under assault, to get 636 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 4: them off their backs, get Bobby Kennedy out of the 637 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 4: Attorney general job. This was not the deal when they 638 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 4: helped out the old man. And the way to do 639 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 4: this is one mob boss, Carlo Marcello and New Orleans 640 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 4: who's often linked to this. He says in Sicilian, I 641 00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 4: need to get the stone out of my shoe. That 642 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 4: was the saying he used. And the stone in the 643 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 4: shoe is Jack Kennedy, not Bobby. They get rid of Bobby, 644 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 4: they're going to replace him with someone else. They got 645 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 4: to get rid of this administration period. That's the way 646 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 4: this theory goes. And that Haffa aded. 647 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: It all right, So if it's revenge, I do want 648 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: to just clarify what had they gotten halfa for it, 649 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: because he did eventually go to prison for I think 650 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: he did eight years. 651 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, so they get him on I believe it was 652 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 4: extortion and fraud charges in Tennessee. Now, look, Haffa have 653 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 4: been involved in all these scummy things right, Like he 654 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 4: had the pension fund is being looted. They're making sweetheart 655 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 4: deals with employers selling out their own union members. They're 656 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 4: doing things like corrupt land deals for vacation homes for 657 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 4: Teamsters officials that are shitty. I it's just bizarre stuff. 658 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 4: So they do get him eventually. The way they get 659 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 4: him is they turn one of his goons, this guy Parton, 660 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 4: into a witness against him, and he tape records. You know, 661 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 4: Hafa and they get him cold. He goes to prison. 662 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 4: In nineteen sixty eight, while he's still in prison, he 663 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 4: is supporting Richard Nixon from prison while the Teamsters are 664 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 4: supporting Humphrey. Nixon wins and Haffa cashes that in by 665 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 4: getting a commutation of his sentence. He has the restriction 666 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 4: he can't re enter union politics till nineteen eighty. He's 667 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 4: going to try to get around that. That was the 668 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,280 Speaker 4: condition of him getting out, and then there's this final 669 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 4: war within the Teamsters which really ends with Haffa's disappearance. 670 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 4: But yeah, they get him eventually, and I take that 671 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 4: as a lesson too. Look, if the federal government is 672 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 4: intent on putting someone in prison, they will do it eventually. 673 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 4: You know, even a lot of Robert Kennedy's allies were saying, 674 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 4: this is an abuse of power. You cannot just determine 675 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 4: a guy has to go to prison and then work 676 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 4: around that. And I think a lot of that approach, 677 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: which he also brought to the mafia. If you believe 678 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 4: the conspiracy that the mob killed JFK, his treatment of 679 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 4: the Mafia members in that same way probably helped that 680 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 4: murder happen. Just to give one brief example. Carlos Marcello, 681 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 4: the New Orleans mob boss I mentioned earlier, was born 682 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 4: in Tunisia and then his parents immigrated with him to 683 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,359 Speaker 4: the US as a young child. Well, Bobby Kennedy ordered 684 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 4: him kidnapped and deported to Guatemala. So you had this 685 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 4: bizarre scene of this New Orleans mafia boss trudging through 686 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 4: the jungle in Guatemala, knowing Bobby Kennedy put him there. 687 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: That's a good way to get yourself killed. I have 688 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: to say. All right, So, as Haffa is in prison, 689 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: Frank Fitzimmons is rising through the ranks of the Teamsters 690 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: and is even more deferential to the mob. And then 691 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: a feud between Fitzsimmons and Haffa develops where Haffa is 692 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,280 Speaker 1: essentially accusing Fitzimmons of all the things that Bobby accused 693 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: him of. You're not doing right by the people that 694 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: you are pretending to serve. So, as I said, we 695 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: leave the situation a worse place than it was when 696 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: Bobby first got involved. And then what happens after that, 697 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: I mean, what is the legacy of the relationship between 698 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 1: unions and the mob? All right, So haff is in prison. 699 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 4: Now Bobby Kennedy got what he wanted, but Frank Fitzsimmons 700 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 4: gets appointed president. 701 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: Fitzsimmons is a Haffa, you drone. 702 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 4: I mean, he's not an inspiring figure in any way. 703 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 4: He's a caretaker, right, you keep the seat warm till 704 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:22,719 Speaker 4: I get back. 705 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 1: And then he decides he doesn't want to give the 706 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: seat up. 707 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 4: And in fact, Fitzimmons, in order to get rid of 708 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 4: the direct contact with the mob of the sort that 709 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 4: Haffa had, he gives more power to the regional directors 710 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 4: of the Teamsters. 711 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: And what that does is it shoves. 712 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 4: All that trouble off his plate and makes the Teamsters 713 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,440 Speaker 4: even more corrupt, because now you have like ten little 714 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 4: fiefdoms where every one of those guys has mob ties 715 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 4: and can do whatever he wants. And he doesn't have 716 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 4: that same autocratic grip on him that Haffa had, So 717 00:39:56,719 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 4: it actually made the problem worse. Haffa was at least 718 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 4: a strong figure who could resist the mob in some 719 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 4: respects Now that's gone. Fitzimmons is playing golf with Richard Nixon, 720 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 4: and so it leads to this bizarre series of events 721 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 4: where Haffa comes out and no one really wants him 722 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 4: back in the position of power, and Haffa, like you said, 723 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 4: starts getting loud because he wants the job back. And 724 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,680 Speaker 4: I think what really moves someone to act is he 725 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 4: starts squawking about stuff that he really shouldn't be squawking about. 726 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 4: It also should be said his disappearance needs to be 727 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 4: put in the context of a few very important murders. 728 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 4: Sam g and Kanna is murdered. John Rizselli, another major 729 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 4: Chicago mobster involved in the CIA and Cuba and all 730 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 4: this stuff, is murdered. 731 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: Haffa disappears in between those two. 732 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 4: All three would have been expected to be witnesses at 733 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 4: Ascetic committee reinvestigating the assassination plots involving the mafia and 734 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 4: CIA and JFK. So they all disappear kind of in 735 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 4: the same one year, year and a half, and they 736 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 4: can't tell whatever they know. In terms of where this 737 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 4: leaves us today, the Teamsters, man, it's interesting to talk 738 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 4: about the Teamsters now because they have had a continual 739 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 4: struggle to clean up. There's a period in the nineties 740 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 4: Jimmy Hoffa junior and sort of the old guard regains power. 741 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,839 Speaker 4: Later there's a reform movement within the Teamsters that has 742 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 4: always been suppressed, which succeeds an electing a guy named 743 00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 4: Ron Carry as leader of the Teamsters, who my father supported. 744 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 4: He was not a Teamster but another union member, and 745 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,359 Speaker 4: I think is a really awesome guy. 746 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: Ron Carry was sort. 747 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 4: Of undone by a criminal case that was very kind 748 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 4: of fishy, and now it's run by Sean O'Brien. It's 749 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 4: a much cleaner union. But interestingly, for those who've been 750 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 4: paying attention, Sean O'Brien is Donald Trump's biggest ally among unions, 751 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,399 Speaker 4: even though the current Trump administration is without a doubt, 752 00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 4: the most anti union administration in American history. It's torn 753 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 4: up the contracts of millions of federal workers, strip them 754 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 4: of collective bargaining rights, just by dictate and just to 755 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 4: put a dice boll on it. Sean O'Brien is from 756 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 4: lead in Charlestown, Boston, Massachusetts, one of the most mobbed 757 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 4: up locals in the country. So maybe there's a sequel 758 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 4: to this story there too, But you know, maybe everything 759 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 4: old is new again. 760 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: I think that is a really great place to end. 761 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: I have to say I've I don't know if i've 762 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: ever learned so much in a single hour. Well, wow, 763 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: thank you so much. And if anyone is interested in 764 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: more stuff like this and more about organized crime in 765 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: the history of organized crime Dan. The podcast is called 766 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,120 Speaker 1: The Outfit. That's right, The Outfit. 767 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 4: It's on Headgum and Higher Ground and available wherever podcasts 768 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 4: are found. 769 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: All right, great, well, thank you so much. This was great. 770 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 1: So that's it for this week's episode. Next week we're 771 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: talking about the cult classic documentary Grey Gardens. 772 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 3: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all 773 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 3: Things Kennedy every week. United States of Kennedy is hosted 774 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 3: by me Lyra Smith and George Severes. 775 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: Research by Dave Rue and Austin Thompson. The original music 776 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 1: by Josh Witzepolski, edited by Graham Gibson, and mixed by 777 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 1: Doug Bain. Our executive producer is Jenna Cagel. United States 778 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 1: of Kennedy is a production of iHeart Podcasts.