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Speaker 1: Taking a Walk, And you know, it's like always tell

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Speaker 1: my students, when you start a song, you're just looking

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Speaker 1: at the same old, blank, white piece of paper. And

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Speaker 1: guess what, when Bob Dylan starts a song, that's what

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Speaker 1: he's looking at too, except that he has that whole

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Speaker 1: catalog like hanging over his head, like what are you

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Speaker 1: going to do now?

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Speaker 2: Bob?

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Speaker 1: You know, whereas if you're like a young, up and

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Speaker 1: coming creator, you're like, well, what am I going to do?

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Speaker 1: You know, instead of what am I going to do

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Speaker 1: compared to what I've already done.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Taking a Walk Podcast, the show that

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Speaker 2: talks with musicians, songwriters, and insiders about their inspiration, their

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Speaker 2: creative process, and their latest work. On this episode, Buzz

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Speaker 2: speaks with Beth Nielsen Chapman. She's a renowned singer and songwriter,

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Speaker 2: A true advocate for the healing power of music. Her

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Speaker 2: soulful voice and profound lyrics have filled numerous albums that

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Speaker 2: blend folk, country, and pop influences. Beth has also written

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Speaker 2: amazing music for countless artists, ranging from Faith Hill to

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Speaker 2: Willie Nelson. She's persevered with dignity and resilience from tremendous

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Speaker 2: life challenges, all while working as a motivational speaker and

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Speaker 2: a teacher helping others to find their creative voices. Beth

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Speaker 2: is truly inspiring and she joins buzz Night now on

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Speaker 2: taking a walk.

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Speaker 3: Beth, Welcome to taking a walk.

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Speaker 1: It's so great to have you on, great to be here.

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Speaker 3: How do you have so much strength and resilience?

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Speaker 1: I don't know how. I just know one step at

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Speaker 1: a time. You know, I don't necessarily always feel when

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Speaker 1: I'm going through a rough spell that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be resilient. I don't assume resilience. I think I just

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Speaker 1: you know, lift the next weight, then, you know, take

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Speaker 1: the next step. And I have learned in my sixty

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Speaker 1: eight years to trust, trust what I can't know yet

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Speaker 1: and look back on all the things that I thought

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Speaker 1: was weren't doable and that I did, and then go, well,

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Speaker 1: I did that, so I'm going to be able to

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Speaker 1: do this. It's like thinking makes it so or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I just kind of tell myself there's

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Speaker 1: a way. It's it'll open to me as I need

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Speaker 1: to know. I'm on a need to know basis on how.

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Speaker 1: But I just know that I'll get through it.

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Speaker 3: You often think that we all gain perspective, certainly through

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Speaker 3: challenging times, But do you sometimes think about it going

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Speaker 3: DoD Why is it that I need challenging times to

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Speaker 3: make me aware that I need perspective?

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't think I need challenging times. It's just

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Speaker 1: the byproduct of talent. Challenging times, and I don't think

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Speaker 1: you can be a human without them. I just think

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Speaker 1: it goes with the territory of being alive in the world,

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Speaker 1: bouncing like ping pong balls against all the other people

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Speaker 1: that are in your life that you love, that you hate,

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Speaker 1: that you run into things with. I think it's just

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Speaker 1: one of those things that accepting that there are going

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Speaker 1: to be challenges and just trying to make use of

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Speaker 1: the byproduct of it, which is perspective, which is a

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Speaker 1: really powerful thing to take notice of. And sometimes it

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Speaker 1: has to be pointed out to us, doesn't it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like we're in the middle and then we go wait,

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Speaker 1: hold on. You know, most of the time, the perspective

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Speaker 1: really comes after I've after things have settled back into normal,

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Speaker 1: and then I go wow, you know, I walk outside

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Speaker 1: and walk in nature, and I just I'm aware of

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Speaker 1: so much more that's beautiful in the world, and it's

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Speaker 1: such a hard time right now if you look at

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Speaker 1: the news and the things happening with the weather and

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Speaker 1: the wars and the things, and it's just, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's really important to balance that out with peace as

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Speaker 1: much as possible. However, you can dial it up, and

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Speaker 1: for me that's music and and just getting in nature

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Speaker 1: and breathing and not looking for a few minutes at

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Speaker 1: a time when all the stuff is going on out there,

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Speaker 1: we have to take care of ourselves.

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Speaker 3: One of the earliest influences of this podcast, the or

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Speaker 3: the some of the teachings of I always feel like

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Speaker 3: I'm mispronouncing his name, the late Teak Not Han.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, yeah, and how.

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Speaker 3: His teachings about you know, being aware when we walk

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Speaker 3: and walk in the woods and of you know, the

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Speaker 3: beauty around us and the sounds and everything. Who are

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Speaker 3: some of the musical influences, much like Teak not Han's

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Speaker 3: influences shaped you as a songwriter and a musician.

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Speaker 1: Oh so many, I mean both ends of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: from Deep like Paul Simon, James Taylor, kind of deep,

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Speaker 1: you know, seventies singer songwriter, all those guys, Joni Mitchell,

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Speaker 1: Carly Simon, Carol King, soul searching kind of lyrical musical masterpieces.

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Speaker 1: But I was also very moved by motown and Stevie

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Speaker 1: Wonder and just songs of life and and you know,

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Speaker 1: even going farther back, I started to really by way

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Speaker 1: of listening to Willie Nelson, actually I took a deep

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Speaker 1: dive into Gershwin and all of those incredible like songs

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Speaker 1: that are air tight, that where the melody and the

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Speaker 1: words are so shaped beautifully, it's like a piece of art,

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Speaker 1: you know, And and all of that influenced me. I

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Speaker 1: think being an air force sprat, moving around and being

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Speaker 1: in different cultures and different parts of the world also

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Speaker 1: had a big effect on me, feeling like we're not

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Speaker 1: all that different, you know, and I'm just I think

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Speaker 1: it just all kind of went into the fabric of

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Speaker 1: how I write songs as I got older and started

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Speaker 1: drawing from all that experience. And you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: always tell my students, when you start a song, you're

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Speaker 1: just looking at the same old, blank, white piece of paper.

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Speaker 1: And guess what, when Bob Dylan starts a song, that's

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Speaker 1: what he's looking at too, except that he has that

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Speaker 1: whole catalog like hanging over his head, like what are

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Speaker 1: you going to do now, Bob? You know, whereas if

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Speaker 1: you're like a young, up and coming creator, you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to do? You know, instead of

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Speaker 1: what am I going to do compared to what I've

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Speaker 1: already done. So there's even as you get successful and

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Speaker 1: you have some things happen that you're really proud of,

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Speaker 1: there's a weight attached to that that then can affect

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Speaker 1: how you rebloom into a new day of creating and

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Speaker 1: you try to get back to that innocence of childhood

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Speaker 1: or of the childhood of your writing. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like that around around life, you know too, just finding

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Speaker 1: the joy and the simplest things coming after whatever tragedy

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Speaker 1: one goes through. It's like it's doable, it's findable. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't always seem like it is, but I think I

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Speaker 1: think we find that getting back in touch with that stuff,

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Speaker 1: and that's what tick not. Han's so mastered. I remember

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Speaker 1: listening to one of his talks on eating an orange.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever listen to that one?

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Speaker 3: I don't believe I have.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, It's like he just did a whole lecture.

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Speaker 1: You'd probably find it on YouTube, and he says, just

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Speaker 1: look at the orange. Just look at it, Just look

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Speaker 1: at the and he describes the little dimples and the

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Speaker 1: little tiny pin dimples and now you're gonna smell it.

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Speaker 1: And this thing goes on for twenty minutes before you

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Speaker 1: actually taste it, and you're just like, your mouth is

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Speaker 1: dripping with anticipation. I like, random the store and got

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Speaker 1: an orange and ate it immediately because you peel it

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Speaker 1: and then there's this little spread. I mean, he's so

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Speaker 1: detailed about the experience of eating an orange, and you realize, gosh,

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Speaker 1: you know, most of the time, I just like, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking on the phone and I'm eating the orange and

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Speaker 1: I'm not even paying attention. And one of the great powerful,

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Speaker 1: wise choices of being in the world is actually not

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Speaker 1: missing what's happening right now. You know that is is

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Speaker 1: a practice about being present, and it changed so many

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Speaker 1: ways that I that I you know, I would literally

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Speaker 1: go back to that over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: I think the thing that's powerful about songs and the

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Speaker 1: way that people hear them is that they kind of

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Speaker 1: forget where they are and they just they are in

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Speaker 1: the song. And when I'm working with songwriters, I'm always

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Speaker 1: trying to make sure that it doesn't smell like a

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Speaker 1: songwriter was there. You want it to just be like

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Speaker 1: you send somebody on a little journey and they're in

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Speaker 1: the song with you and they're just like waiting to

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Speaker 1: see what happens now, and then at the end of

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Speaker 1: it they go, Wow, that was great. It's like a

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Speaker 1: little mini movie, you know, So it's amazing.

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Speaker 3: Which leads me to as a you know, as a

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Speaker 3: Hall of Fame songwriter, is there one or two things

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Speaker 3: that represent the essence of a great song.

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Speaker 1: Yes, to me, is something being communicated where another person

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Speaker 1: is moved by the communication or or spellbound or drawn in.

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Speaker 1: So when I get a song to critique, I will say,

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Speaker 1: who's talking to who? About what? And why? Those are

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Speaker 1: the answers to the questions. So, and there's a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of parameters there, Like you may not know exactly who,

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Speaker 1: but you get a sense of kind of who this

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Speaker 1: person is that's talking and who are they talking to.

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Speaker 1: Are they talking to the audience, are they talking to

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Speaker 1: another person, are they talking to themselves? What are they saying?

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Speaker 1: What exactly is it about, you know, and songs can

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Speaker 1: be very mystical but also be grounded in the sense of, oh,

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Speaker 1: I know what that song's about. It's not just one

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Speaker 1: size fits all, but it's those parameters are really important.

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Speaker 1: So it's to me, it's a communication that's not just

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Speaker 1: the words, but the notes the words are on is

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Speaker 1: very important to the meaning of what's being communicated. It's

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Speaker 1: fascinating art form.

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Speaker 3: You've written for so many artists over your career. Is

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Speaker 3: there a couple of particular collaborations that you'd like to

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Speaker 3: highlight that, really, we're particularly meaningful. I know you love

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Speaker 3: them all and they're they're all special, but are there

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Speaker 3: a couple you can say, oh my god, this one

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Speaker 3: really I have got a highlight?

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I've had such an amazing amount of

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Speaker 1: adventures with all my co writers, it's hard to pick

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Speaker 1: just one. I remember, you know, when I wrote a

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Speaker 1: song ended up getting three songs on a Willie Nelson

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Speaker 1: album back in nineteen ninety and I was a huge fan,

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Speaker 1: and you know, he had heard my first hit that

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Speaker 1: I wrote with Don Schlitz that was a hit for

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Speaker 1: Tanya Tucker, strong Enough to Bend, And I guess at

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Speaker 1: the time, Willy wasn't writing very much. I think he

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Speaker 1: was kind of transitioning out of one marriage into another.

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Speaker 1: And he'd had, you know, I think Lucas had just

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Speaker 1: been born. A lot was going on in his life.

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Speaker 1: And he told his producer, we'll get whoever wrote that

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Speaker 1: song to write a new one. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: just being asked was such a huge thing for me.

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Speaker 1: That I was. I just spent three months writing the song,

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Speaker 1: and then he ended up cutting it and a couple

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Speaker 1: of other ones, and after the record was finished, he

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Speaker 1: was playing it, I think, off the back of a

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Speaker 1: golf cart for Waylon Jennings, and Whylan loved the songs.

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Speaker 1: He kept saying, well, that's a great song, Will and Will.

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Speaker 1: He goes, well, I didn't write that one, and he goes,

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Speaker 1: well who wrote that? And he' said Beth muels Jef.

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Speaker 1: So that happened a couple of times when he was

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Speaker 1: listening to the record, and I ended up getting this

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Speaker 1: phone call from Waylon Jennings and he goes.

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Speaker 4: This is Ylon Jennings. This is a call for best Chapman.

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Speaker 4: I just have one thing to say to you, young lady.

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Speaker 4: Write me a damn song. Then he hangs up and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh my god, he didn't leave his phone number.

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Speaker 1: This is before caller I d you know, But I

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Speaker 1: got his phone number. And I ended up writing some

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Speaker 1: songs with Whylan, and he ended up cutting one of

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Speaker 1: my songs that I wrote for him, and uh, well,

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Speaker 1: he asked me to write him a song and I

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Speaker 1: kept trying to write an outlaw song and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I'm so not an outlaw songwriter. I was like, they

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Speaker 1: were sounding terrible. And then during that rite, during that time,

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Speaker 1: I heard that he had gone in for triple bypass surgery,

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Speaker 1: like a big operation, and he came through it just fine,

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Speaker 1: but he had a long period of recoup I mean

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Speaker 1: recouping recovery. And I thought, now, what would Waylan want

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Speaker 1: to say, you know? And I started thinking about sitting

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Speaker 1: on a porch with a little kid, just kind of

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Speaker 1: recuperating and doing something small and peaceful. And so I

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Speaker 1: wrote this song called old Church Hymns and nursery rhymes

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Speaker 1: about sitting on a porch with a kid and that

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Speaker 1: that's kind of what it's all about. And he cut

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Speaker 1: it and his daughter sang the harmony with him, and

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Speaker 1: then we ended up becoming friends and writing a bunch

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Speaker 1: of songs together, and I just he was one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite people to hang out with. And his wife,

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Speaker 1: Jesse also I loved so dearly, And I mean, he

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Speaker 1: used to say the funniest things. He'd say, like she

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Speaker 1: would be going out to the store while we were

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Speaker 1: in the living room writing and she'd say, what do

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Speaker 1: you want from the store, And he'd say, woman, you

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Speaker 1: just interrupted me. You made me lose my train of thought.

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Speaker 1: She goes, well, I'm gonna to have to eat what

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Speaker 1: I get and she just goes on and goes out

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Speaker 1: the door, and he turns to me and he goes,

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Speaker 1: I overmarried. So, I mean, you know, those kinds of

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Speaker 1: people that have the brain like he did, they're just

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Speaker 1: it's the most fun job in the world. There's so

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Speaker 1: many different stories I could tell about writing with different writers,

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Speaker 1: because it's like being entering into a whole other kind

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Speaker 1: of realm of humanity.

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Speaker 3: Tell us about your song put a Woman in Charge. Oh,

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Speaker 3: you collaborated with keV Mo, that's right, and John Lewis Parker,

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Speaker 3: John Lowis Parker.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So keV was working on this song with John Lewis,

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Speaker 1: who is in LA and keV was in Nashville and

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Speaker 1: I had just come back from a tour in the

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Speaker 1: UK with terrible aerngitis. This would have been about twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and I was standing in the kitchen telling my husband Bob.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I've got to go right down and

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Speaker 1: like I'm like I could barely talk, and he goes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go go rest. That's really smart. And then right

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Speaker 1: at that moment, the phone rang in my hand and

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Speaker 1: it was keV Money goes, what are you doing? I'm

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Speaker 1: like nothing, I guess can you come over right now?

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Speaker 1: I'm like I'll be right there, you know. And so

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Speaker 1: Bob was like watching me get in the car, like,

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Speaker 1: what part of going to rest is this? I'm like,

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Speaker 1: this is the part where Kembo called. So I went

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Speaker 1: over there and he said, we want to write this song.

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Speaker 1: We need a woman to be involved because you know,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to be out of our depth, but

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Speaker 1: we don't want it to be political. We want it

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Speaker 1: to be a humanitarian. And you know, it was like

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Speaker 1: just respect, you know, like respect for women. Where the heck,

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Speaker 1: what the heck what's going on here? It was way

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Speaker 1: before it right now, but right now it seems to

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Speaker 1: have been catching fire with Kamala Harris running for president.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, I think it's well beyond time that

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Speaker 1: women are in more positions of power than they are

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Speaker 1: and it's getting there, you know. So it's a fun

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Speaker 1: song though, and I loved when we were writing it.

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Speaker 1: You know, keb was very aware of not not bashing

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Speaker 1: men in any way, just saying women, you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: let's don't not use this resource here.

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Speaker 3: Well, Beth, you were a great guest on our sort

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Speaker 3: of companion podcast called Music Save Me with Lynn Hoffman.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that was so fun.

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Speaker 3: And I want to close by asking you the difficult question,

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Speaker 3: where the heck would we all be if we didn't

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Speaker 3: have music in our in our lives.

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine a world without music. And you know,

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Speaker 1: when I teach these workshops on voice and on songwriting,

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Speaker 1: one of the things I address for people is to

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Speaker 1: walk around in the world and instead of hearing people

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Speaker 1: talk thinking of think of what they're doing is singing,

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Speaker 1: because they're all you know, you're going, hi, how are you,

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Speaker 1: You're you're hitting different notes. You're literally making music all

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Speaker 1: day long unless you're talking to them on a tone,

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Speaker 1: and then it doesn't count. So I think if we

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Speaker 1: didn't have music in its present form of all of

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Speaker 1: the bells and whistles, that even speaking from one person

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Speaker 1: to another is music. I think our communications with each

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Speaker 1: other is music. It's just gone all wildly developed from

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Speaker 1: the simplicity of saying, hey, can you hand me that

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Speaker 1: tomata da da da da da da da da da.

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Speaker 1: You know. So I think we're just doing music all

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Speaker 1: day long. And I think when you when you put

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Speaker 1: up that antenna and you start to hear the songs

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Speaker 1: that people are singing in their communication, especially songwriters. I

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Speaker 1: try to encourage them to walk around in the world

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Speaker 1: and think of it as song hunting or standing in

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Speaker 1: the grocery line and somebody says something completely natural in

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Speaker 1: a conversation and you go, that's a great title, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the titles are all normal things. The number one

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Speaker 1: hit song I wrote for Willie Nelson was nothing I

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Speaker 1: can do about it now, which people say all day long,

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Speaker 1: you know. But being able to go, wait, that's a thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, Identifying it and doing something with it is

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Speaker 1: sort of the expertise of the of the listening songwriter

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Speaker 1: who's fully activated. So it's like, to me, the world

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Speaker 1: is everybody's a songwriter. Whether they're activated or not, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but I can help them get activated if

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Speaker 1: they're not.

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Speaker 3: Beth Nielsen Chapman, thanks for making the world a better place,

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Speaker 3: and thanks for being I'm taking a walk. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Taking a

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Speaker 5: Walk podcast. Share this and other episodes with your friends

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Speaker 5: and follow us so you never miss an episode. Taking

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Speaker 5: a Walk is available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 5: and wherever you get your podcasts.