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Speaker 1: Also media, Hello and welcome to cool People who did

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Speaker 1: cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that I have a

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Speaker 1: podcast that you've listened to more than once a week.

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Speaker 1: If you're listening to the second part, I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Marta Kiljoy and my guest this week is prop Hi.

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Speaker 2: How are you hey? Shout out why Cliff Jean. It's stupid.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1: He's HAYESHI wait, you know he he didn't eve run

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Speaker 1: for president of Haiti. He did run for then he won,

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Speaker 1: like they wouldn't let him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Mini, he's a great artist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I like his music. I feel like I

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Speaker 1: don't know anything about him as a person, and maybe

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Speaker 1: there's something.

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Speaker 4: No idea people being like, I don't know who he is.

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Speaker 4: He's mister Shakira Shakira.

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Speaker 2: Ja Cara shake Cara.

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Speaker 1: Yeah you've heard him. It's funny because in my mind,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, how could you not hear?

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Speaker 2: Why clife? Sewan is?

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Speaker 1: I don't know who, like almost anyone is. I think

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Speaker 1: it's because I was a child of the nineties. I

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Speaker 1: think that's why I know who he is.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, I was like, no, it's probably

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Speaker 3: a age like yeah, yeah, because the Fuji's and Lauren

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Speaker 3: Hill like that is so important and why Cliff is

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Speaker 3: so important to that moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one time, he's.

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Speaker 3: Got greatest in two of the biggest songs on Earth.

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Speaker 3: He got an ad lib, you know, so like killing

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Speaker 3: me softly, He's like one time, two times.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, we are indeed talking about Haiti. Well, first we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the fact that our producer is Sophie Hi, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: how are you hey? And our audio engineer is Rory Hi.

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Speaker 1: Rory Hi?

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Speaker 2: R I was Roy?

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Speaker 5: Oh, Rory you sound different.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I've never met Rory.

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Speaker 5: You're hilarious.

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Speaker 1: Our theme musical is written forced by Unwoman. And this

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Speaker 1: is part two of what's going to be a four

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Speaker 1: parter about the Haitian Revolution, which was on my short

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Speaker 1: list of things that no matter what I knew, I

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Speaker 1: had to cover at some point or like, well, there's

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Speaker 1: so much a lot of the stuff, and I still

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Speaker 1: haven't covered the stuff that I haven't covered because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: there's so much to it, you know, And we're not

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Speaker 1: even no one who listens to the show regular is

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Speaker 1: gonna be shocked. We're not even going to get to

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Speaker 1: the Haitian Revolution today.

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Speaker 5: Multiple episodes in contexts you no.

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Speaker 1: Way, but this one's full of stories and poison.

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Speaker 5: I thoroughly. I thoroughly.

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Speaker 4: So we were doing a script read of one of

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Speaker 4: a series Jamie was working on, and she was like,

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Speaker 4: and then I realized I needed to do a second part,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, really really, And it's the

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Speaker 4: same with you, really, yeah, both of you.

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Speaker 1: Because the thing that happens, like one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I do when I start doing a researching a

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Speaker 1: topic is I like go and listen to the other

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Speaker 1: people who've covered it and stuff. To be fair, I

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Speaker 1: have actually a long time ago I listened to the

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Speaker 1: Revolutions podcast by Duncan, I think about Haitian revolution, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't re listen to it for this episode. But

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Speaker 1: when you go and you just like read the the

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Speaker 1: pop articles and stuff, you know, like they don't do

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Speaker 1: it for me. They're missing something. There's nothing wrong with them.

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Speaker 1: Well sometimes they're literally wrong, but it's flat. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: part of it is that it's like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff I don't know about the world,

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Speaker 1: and I like so I like, yeah, I like being

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Speaker 1: able to come in and be like, hey, look, there's

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Speaker 1: an island. It's over here. You know, if you're not

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Speaker 1: from there, you're not born knowing what it is, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm also like, my my problem is always like

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Speaker 3: where do you start? Where do you start the story?

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Speaker 3: Like like context has context. Whatever starting point you started

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Speaker 3: had background. Yeah, so you're like, okay, well well let

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Speaker 3: me tell you about the background. But that background has background.

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Speaker 3: So I'm always like, where do.

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Speaker 2: You I don't know where to start? How do I

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Speaker 2: bring you in?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I think it's Karl Segum.

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Speaker 1: I could be wrong. Was like, if you want to

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Speaker 1: if you want to teach someone to make an apple

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Speaker 1: pieform scrap, you have to create the universe.

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Speaker 2: That is an amazing take.

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Speaker 1: I remember at one point I got really obsessively into

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Speaker 1: DIY For a while. I had this cabin that I

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Speaker 1: had like built in and lived in, and then I

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Speaker 1: started being like I want to make all my own stuff.

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Speaker 1: And then I was like, I can't realistically make my

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Speaker 1: own shoes. I mean, I know people who've made shoes,

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Speaker 1: but like, realistically it's not going to happen. And then

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Speaker 1: I was like I can build a computer, but I

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Speaker 1: can't make a computer. And it's started like bugging me

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Speaker 1: that I couldn't make everything, and then I eventually now

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Speaker 1: I don't have to make my own clothes again. Now

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Speaker 1: I can just go ahead and get close.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's the bell curve of like like the bell

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Speaker 3: curve of unplugging, Like at some point you're like.

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Speaker 2: Well, can I just plug that one?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Supplements very funny.

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Speaker 1: And then with history it's you get the same thing

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Speaker 1: where you're like, Okay, well I can't I can't do

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Speaker 1: all of the context ever. Yeah, but I can do

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Speaker 1: a lot of it, and I enjoy it. So and

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Speaker 1: send among Vodu was practiced by enslaved people and also

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Speaker 1: importantly by self emancipated people, by the Maroons. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of different arguments about how many what percentage

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Speaker 1: of people were Maroons at any given point in Haiti's history,

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Speaker 1: and as we pointed out, all of the records were destroyed,

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Speaker 1: so we kind of don't really know. But like, the

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Speaker 1: best estimate I've seen was that about one percent of

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Speaker 1: the enslaved population was Maroon at any given point, which

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Speaker 1: would put it at around like five thousand people or so.

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Speaker 1: But I've also read things that are like twenty thousand

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Speaker 1: and more, and I don't know. There were also free

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Speaker 1: people of color on the island who are generally mixed

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Speaker 1: African and French folks who are called a word that

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say on air. I just literally

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Speaker 1: don't know whether I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know, don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it wasn't like cut and dry. Oh, there's

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Speaker 1: this religion with a distinct name in culture and beliefs

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Speaker 1: being practiced during as time we talked about history is

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Speaker 1: really messy. Wording to almost every version of I could

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Speaker 1: find of the Haitian Revolution, there was this one major

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Speaker 1: precursor to the Haitian Revolution. I was like, not a

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Speaker 1: lot of uprisings, and then suddenly this big conspiracy plot

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Speaker 1: that was a rebellion against colonial power. And that's what

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Speaker 1: I expected. I was going to tell you today, and

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Speaker 1: I'm still going to tell you, but I'm going to

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Speaker 1: tell you. I'm going to tell you two versions of it.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: I compared a ton of sources. I wrote it all

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Speaker 1: up and everything two hours before recording time. I referenced

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Speaker 1: one more source, a more recent book from twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three put out by Harvard Press. I devoured the introduction

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Speaker 1: in the chapter on the guy that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: talk about right before recording. The book is called A

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Speaker 1: Secret among the Blacks Slave Resistance before the Haitian Revolution

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Speaker 1: by John D. Garagis. Okay, so here are two stories

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Speaker 1: about a guy named Francois Macandal. You ever heard of

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Speaker 1: Francois Macandal.

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Speaker 3: Like I said, like, I know, just disparate names here

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Speaker 3: and there, but I can't tell you no facts about him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand. He is entirely mythologized. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: figure out exactly what's real. And there's this guy, his

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Speaker 1: original name, his birthplace, all of that is forgotten because

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Speaker 1: of you know, slavery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: At first people said he was from the Guinea Coast,

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Speaker 1: the southern coast of West Africa as it was called

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Speaker 1: at the time. Later people said he was probably from

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Speaker 1: the coast of what's now the Republic of Congo. Then

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Speaker 1: after that people were like, actually, the fact that there's

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Speaker 1: no vowel at the end of his last name means

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Speaker 1: he was actually probably from the interior of Congo. But

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Speaker 1: he is from one of the places. So what they

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Speaker 1: what that means is he's from one of the places

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Speaker 1: that everyone in eighty was from.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, got it, thanks, yea.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he might have been named after a village or

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Speaker 1: tribe called Macandahal. He might have been named after Makanda,

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Speaker 1: meaning a totem or a fetish, or people named his

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Speaker 1: fetishes Maconda after him. That actually seems like the most likely.

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Speaker 1: In the pop version of his history, he's royalty. Like

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Speaker 1: in Africa, he was royalty, and a lot of figures

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Speaker 1: throughout history, once they're important, people will be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: they were secretly royalty. Either they were like secretly royalty

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Speaker 1: in Africa in like a colonized area, or they like

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Speaker 1: the one white person in their lineage was a princess

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Speaker 1: or whatever you know. But Makeundal might have actually been royalty.

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Speaker 1: That seems fairly. It is certainly possible. It might even

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Speaker 1: be the most likely thing, if nothing else. He was educated.

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Speaker 1: He knew how to read and write, He spoke Arabic,

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Speaker 1: and most accounts said he was very, very skilled as

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Speaker 1: an herbalist. He was also probably Muslim. He knew how

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Speaker 1: to heal, and he knew how to poison. When he

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Speaker 1: was twelve, he was captured and trafficked to Sandumung, probably

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Speaker 1: in the seventeen twenties or the seventeen thirties. He was

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Speaker 1: called the old man of the Mountain later thirty years later,

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Speaker 1: but you know, considering most people only lasted a year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was sold to a.

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Speaker 1: Man named Lena mon de Masi. And if I pronounced

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Speaker 1: your name wrong, you shouldn't have.

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Speaker 2: Enslaved people exactly.

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Speaker 1: He was set to work on an indigo plantation in

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Speaker 1: a fairly remote rural area, one that soon turned into

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Speaker 1: a sugar plantation. Most accounts from long after his death

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Speaker 1: said that he lost a hand or an arm while

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Speaker 1: processing sugar, and it gets called a I love the

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Speaker 1: euphemisms of history. A workplace accident.

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Speaker 3: Like this story is starting to like come back of

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Speaker 3: like the dude one hand Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, like a workplaces?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like is it a workplace? Is it an accident? Like?

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Speaker 1: Neither of those feel like appropriate work.

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Speaker 2: I don't think this is a workplace.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in the Saw movies and he loses an

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Speaker 1: arm while he's in the Saw movies. Yes, sugar plantation

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Speaker 1: work required a bunch of cattle. I guess I. I'm

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Speaker 1: not an expert on having a sugar plantation. And you

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Speaker 1: need someone to hang out and keep people away. From

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Speaker 1: stealing the cattle. And so he's got one arm, and

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Speaker 1: so they're like all right, or one hand, or maybe

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Speaker 1: he has both hands. We only have one attestation that

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Speaker 1: he lost a hand, but either way, he gets a

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Speaker 1: job guarding cattle. And look, as far as having been

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Speaker 1: enslaved in the saw factory, this is the job you want.

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Speaker 1: It is a remote job with almost no supervision. There's

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Speaker 1: like his boss's owner or whatever. It's like nowhere around.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so for a few years, from eighteen forty four

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Speaker 1: to eighteen forty eight, he hangs out in this hut,

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Speaker 1: either alone or with another enslaved person, and watches after

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Speaker 1: the cattle. And meanwhile he builds a reputation as a

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Speaker 1: healer of animals of enslaved people, and probably white people

225
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Speaker 1: were coming to him too. There's a lot of like

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Speaker 1: the French people were like so fucked because I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're clearly in a better position, but they're like so fucked, right,

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Speaker 1: because all of the skilled healers are like herbalists from Africa.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're all in the bush yep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you'd like you'd be like, oh, my

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Speaker 1: kid's sick. I can't take them a little white doctor,

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Speaker 1: they'll put leeches on them. I don't know if they

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Speaker 1: put leeches on them or not, but you know, like

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Speaker 1: the African doctors were doing a lot better work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like they're using plants, like how the rest

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Speaker 3: of human society has for a long time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also, I still always go back to whenever whenever we

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Speaker 3: talk about old medicines, this is when I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I only want to have been born now. Yeah, totally,

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Speaker 3: there's no other era i'd want to live in. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you gottah, you gotta cut on your arm. Let's just

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Speaker 3: saw that shit off. How about a here's some whiskey.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna cut your arm off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got a fifty percent chance of surviving

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Speaker 1: after we do it.

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Speaker 2: Hey, you might not make it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I want to be born after antibiotics.

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Speaker 2: But like that's yeah, yeah, Like let me just listen.

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Speaker 3: Nah, fam you telling me. You're telling me I got

251
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Speaker 3: a little sickness. You won't go to the river and

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Speaker 3: pull out a water roach, you know, and put it

253
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Speaker 3: on my cut?

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, I'm good. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: God, even imagine being like the people trying to figure

256
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Speaker 1: out what works because you're like, well, I guess we

257
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Speaker 1: just caught off a bunch of people's arms and see

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Speaker 1: what happens.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, man, it seems like if you just

260
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Speaker 3: didn't have that arm where that thing is, it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be a product the rest of your body.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is better than dying of the infection.

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Speaker 2: True. Yeah, I don't want to live at no other time, no, anyway.

264
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Speaker 3: No.

265
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Speaker 1: And so he's living in this hut and then at

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Speaker 1: some point insides to run away. The two versions of

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Speaker 1: the story. One version of the story, though like, is

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Speaker 1: that he walks away. He's like, no one's watching me,

269
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Speaker 1: I'm done, and he leaves. The more common version of

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Speaker 1: the story, I don't know if it's true or not,

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Speaker 1: is that he had a falling out with the guy

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Speaker 1: who had enslaved him. Well rather not the original. That

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Speaker 1: guy dies and then is like wife inherits him and

274
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Speaker 1: then marries a new guy and whatever. Yeah, the guy

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Speaker 1: who owned him was raping this enslaved woman, but he

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Speaker 1: and that woman were in love. One night he was

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Speaker 1: caught sleeping with her, and so the slaver ordered him

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Speaker 1: to be lashed fifty times. This was, as you're kind

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Speaker 1: of talking about, This is more or less a death sentence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you are in sandamong and you are lashed fifty times,

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Speaker 1: you're probably gonna die.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna die.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so he's like, well, I don't want to die,

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Speaker 1: so he leaves or he just left anyway because no

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Speaker 1: one was watching him.

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Speaker 3: I heard that story, like he was just what nobody

287
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Speaker 3: there as he just left. Yeah, that's the story I heard.

288
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Speaker 3: But who knows.

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Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I actually think that both stories work.

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Speaker 2: Both stories.

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Speaker 1: It is completely possible, but the less spectacular one is

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Speaker 1: like always going to be slightly more likely in my head,

293
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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

295
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and especially because it wasn't like and then he

296
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Speaker 1: went back and killed whatever, no shade on him, no

297
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Speaker 1: matter what he chose. However, he ended up self emancipating. Yeah,

298
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Speaker 1: so he walks into the mountains in eighteen forty eight

299
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Speaker 1: and he lived there for ten years. And both versions

300
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Speaker 1: of the story, besides exactly why he left, they they

301
00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,600
Speaker 1: agree at this point. Both the like, this isn't where

302
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,559
Speaker 1: I had to like rewrite everything. Okay, here's where they

303
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 1: start to fork off. He converts from Islam to Vodu

304
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,600
Speaker 1: or I guess you don't really have to give up

305
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,640
Speaker 1: Islam to practice vodu, and who knows, he becomes a

306
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 1: leader of the Maroons because he is a man with

307
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 1: an idea. It's a very simple idea when it comes

308
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,280
Speaker 1: down to it. It's a simple idea. It's complicated in

309
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,920
Speaker 1: its execution, but the idea is this, White people can't

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Speaker 1: enslave you when they're dead. I'm very sympathetic to this position.

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Speaker 3: Hear me out, guys. Yeah, okay, I'm spinballing here. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: what if they're dead?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just it's a very elegant solution. Yeah, and

314
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Speaker 1: if you don't want to be dead, don't enslave people.

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Speaker 3: I feel like they kind of like you kind of

316
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Speaker 3: put us in a precarious position here. I feel like

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Speaker 3: this seems to be that you don't listen to reason. Obviously,

318
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Speaker 3: or we wouldn't be here in the first place. So

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Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah.

320
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Speaker 1: One of your own friars who showed up right away,

321
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Speaker 1: was like, this is a bad idea, and you didn't

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Speaker 1: listen to him.

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Speaker 3: That's what your passed to said. You'll pass to say it,

324
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Speaker 3: y'all sent it? Yeah, okay.

325
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Speaker 1: And as for how to get these slavers to go

326
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Speaker 1: from living slavers to dead bodies. He fell back on

327
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Speaker 1: what he knew best plants. He was a brilliant poisoner.

328
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Speaker 1: His idea united people across ethnic and linguistic lines. I've

329
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Speaker 1: read that he had three thousand Maroons working with him.

330
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Speaker 1: I've read that he had twenty thousand maroons working with him.

331
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Speaker 1: He built up a network across Sandomong to help people

332
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Speaker 1: escape into the hills, with agents in every major city.

333
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Speaker 1: He worked with free black people, with the pocketeers who

334
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Speaker 1: went from plantation to plantation to pedal wares to enslave

335
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Speaker 1: black people. And this part is actually particularly astounding because

336
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Speaker 1: getting free black people to be part of a slave

337
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 1: vault at this time was particularly hard because there was

338
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 1: a kind of a three way tension happening between the French,

339
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,960
Speaker 1: the free black people, many of whom were middle class,

340
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,720
Speaker 1: and the enslaved black people. And so good on him

341
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: if that is, and good on the you know, middle

342
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,600
Speaker 1: class people for thrown down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because once you're out, you're like, well, I'm not

344
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,000
Speaker 3: trying to like like you're supposed to stay under a radar, like, oh,

345
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,160
Speaker 3: I don't want no problems, Like I'm out. We made it,

346
00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 3: just you know, good luck to you.

347
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: But Yeah, slip you a little bit of money if

348
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: you need to get Yeah, yeah, here you go.

349
00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, get out of your kid. Yeah.

350
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,360
Speaker 1: These groups led raids on plantations to free people and

351
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 1: steal shit. And several times, the story goes he was

352
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: captured and each time he escaped, he recruited people, and

353
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Speaker 1: then he and his agents started poisoning people. About six

354
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: thousand people were poisoned to death during this. If you

355
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,200
Speaker 1: read a simplistic retelling of events, he poisoned white people.

356
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,840
Speaker 1: That's the nice way to tell the story, right, Yeah,

357
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 1: if you read the stuff that's more willing to engage

358
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,320
Speaker 1: in the ethically complicated nature of revolt. He poisoned white people,

359
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,560
Speaker 1: and he poisoned black people who didn't agree with him

360
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 1: about his plans for revolution. Yeah, and he also poisoned

361
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,200
Speaker 1: livestock and crops because those animals and crops were capital

362
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,800
Speaker 1: assets of the colonial economy.

363
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

364
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:24,240
Speaker 3: The part that was brought forth to me, like when

365
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 3: they it was always a comparison contrast between like him

366
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 3: and Harriet. Tell me that's the way I remember real

367
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 3: being taught to me. Oh interesting, Yeah, in his like

368
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,879
Speaker 3: I got out, but I'm not just gonna leave y'all.

369
00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like we're going to figure

370
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,280
Speaker 3: out how to get everybody out. But the difference between yeah,

371
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,200
Speaker 3: when he's male, it was female, like you know, working

372
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 3: with cloaks, but just him being like if you ain't

373
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 3: forced you against us, Yeah, and his understanding, whether he

374
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,320
Speaker 3: knew it or not, of capitalism of like you have

375
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 3: to like you have to not only do you have to,

376
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 3: you have to cut off their reason for even having slaves,

377
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,440
Speaker 3: you know, and that understanding of that sort of solidarity

378
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,199
Speaker 3: of like non poisono cattle and the idea that like

379
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,639
Speaker 3: I've always said that, like privilege makes you brittle, but

380
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 3: it also makes you aloof in the sense that you're

381
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,159
Speaker 3: not paying attention to what we're putting in these drinks.

382
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,680
Speaker 3: You're not paying attention to that, you know how we're

383
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,000
Speaker 3: making you salad. You're not paying attention to this. You

384
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying, Like you don't know what we

385
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,720
Speaker 3: feed you, you know, So that as a act of

386
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,879
Speaker 3: resistance was like I said, that's when you said Francoise

387
00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 3: was like I knew the name and like it was

388
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:36,560
Speaker 3: starting to come together, But that was the thing to

389
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 3: where it's like you have to you have.

390
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 2: To cut off the money.

391
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 3: And that's what what we understood him as, whereas Harriet

392
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 3: Tubman was like, well let's get free, right, he was like,

393
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,040
Speaker 3: you got to stop the money because they just gonna

394
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:50,920
Speaker 3: bring somebody else.

395
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know yeah yeah, and also just like and

396
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 1: we're just gonna literally kill them until they go away,

397
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, like we're gonna.

398
00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 2: Just like you don't have to be here. No.

399
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,680
Speaker 1: As a that is a really interesting comparison to to

400
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,120
Speaker 1: him because I got you know, I mean, Harry Tubmans

401
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 1: like one of the most singular heroes in all of history,

402
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,120
Speaker 1: you know. But like you look at this and I'm like, well,

403
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,040
Speaker 1: it's not a bad plan.

404
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, like you know what I'm saying, it'd

405
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,879
Speaker 3: be like and you know, and it's like and Haiti

406
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 3: not like Haiti was aware of America, you know what

407
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,160
Speaker 3: I'm saying. But like at the time or now looking

408
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,560
Speaker 3: at it now, I'm like, it's hey, he's a lot smaller.

409
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 3: Yeah then you know, the Confederate South, so it's smaller.

410
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,600
Speaker 3: So there's like you could probably pull it off. Like

411
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 3: there's not that many of y'all, you.

412
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:39,040
Speaker 1: Know, saying there's only about I had trouble finding the

413
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: exact population of white versus black and exactly this year.

414
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,160
Speaker 1: But by looking at charts and conjecturing there's about half

415
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: a million enslave people and there's about forty thousand white people.

416
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,200
Speaker 2: It's not that many.

417
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So if he killed six thousand of them,

418
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 1: that is fifteen percent of the white people. Big, well,

419
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:57,800
Speaker 1: on your way, you know.

420
00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

421
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: Some say that this poisoning spree lasted six years. Some

422
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,159
Speaker 1: say that lasted eighteen years. Some say that it was

423
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 1: more than six thousand people. Some people say his goal

424
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: was to spark a race war and or just literally

425
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 1: kill all the white people on the island. It could

426
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: have worked. He was working on his most ambitious project.

427
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,760
Speaker 1: Yet when he was caught what his most ambitious project

428
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: was speaking of fucking with the money is pivoting to ad.

429
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 1: See he started podcasting.

430
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was good. That was good.

431
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,200
Speaker 1: You have me, Thank you, thank you. That's a that's

432
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:41,560
Speaker 1: my main job. Here. Here's a bunch of ads and

433
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 1: we're back. So he's working on this ambitious project. He

434
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 1: is going to poison the water supply of cap friend Swis,

435
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 1: the capital of the colony. In seventeen seventy, the Capital

436
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 1: is going to move to Porta Prince, but that was

437
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 1: already more populous cap front, sois was like the second

438
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: most populous city trying to kill a ton of people

439
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 1: in the Capitol. In terms of the ethics of this

440
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: particular action, Look, he is not walking away without blood

441
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 1: on his hands. Two thirds or so of the population

442
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: the city was enslaved. But you know, he also told

443
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 1: people that he had magic powers. He told people that

444
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 1: he was immortal. He said that if he were to

445
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 1: be killed, he would not die, but instead he would

446
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: return as a mosquito to keep killing slavers.

447
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 2: Love it, Yeah, love it.

448
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 1: He goes to a local dance at a plantation. There's

449
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: like a party once a year. Basically you get your

450
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: holiday party and he's ratted out and captured at the party.

451
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 3: I just had this totally separate I just had this

452
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 3: image of just like, yeah, your work, your office into

453
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 3: the year Christmas party.

454
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, slaves though.

455
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and only half of you are still alive from

456
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: the start of the year.

457
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Looking at that party, that party would be

458
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:58,360
Speaker 2: either morose.

459
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,159
Speaker 1: Or wild or both. Dude, And I mean, can we

460
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 1: kind of actually know a little bit about how those

461
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,479
Speaker 1: parties went because that's where vodoo comes from. Yes, like

462
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: let's do ecstatic stuff while we're like trying not to die.

463
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: Yeah.

464
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 1: So he's captured, he breaks out of his cell, he's recaptured.

465
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: He is sentenced to death by being burned at the stake.

466
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 1: On January twentieth, eighteen fifty eight. He is burned at

467
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: the stake. First he slips his bonds, even though he's

468
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 1: like missing a hand. He has to be retied, and

469
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: then he's burned in order to make an example out

470
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: of him. Enslave people were brought to witness his death,

471
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 1: but they said he did not die. We saw him.

472
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: He turned into a mosquito and he flew away. He

473
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 1: promised he would return and free all of us. And

474
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: mosquitoes did a lot of the killing killing in the

475
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,639
Speaker 1: Haitian Revolution. Yes, yes, mosquito born illnesses were essential to

476
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: military victory of the Haitian people against the European powers.

477
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 1: And as those soldiers died, people would say, see Macon

478
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: Dallas still doing his work.

479
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 3: Good old sickle cell anemia. Yeah, yeah, I came to

480
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 3: save us all. You know what I'm talking about.

481
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 1: No, I don't remember, because I didn't because I haven't

482
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: gone to the part where I remember it was like

483
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 1: yellow fever or something killed a lot.

484
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, not like so malaria.

485
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 3: Like even this helped, even with like Rome trying to

486
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 3: conquer Africa was because Africans.

487
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 2: Developed a recessive sickle cell trade.

488
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,719
Speaker 3: Now if you get two dominant ones, how you get

489
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 3: sickle cell anemia. If you have one dominant and one recessive,

490
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: which most West Africans have, then we become in some

491
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 3: ways we have a defense against malaria. Right, so from

492
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 3: a lot of the mosquito born problems, but that shit

493
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 3: was wiping out the colonize and it's like, it's because

494
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,199
Speaker 3: we have sickle cell like white blood cells, you know.

495
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: And it's like so it's it's been There's even an

496
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 3: island off the coast of South Carolina that ended up

497
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 3: like all of the white people had to leave because

498
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 3: there was too many mosquitoes. But it was killing in

499
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: but it wasn't killing us. And it's because we're from

500
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 3: West Africa and we have sickle cell traits, so I

501
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: don't kill it.

502
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 2: So that's why I was like good old sickle seal.

503
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: That's probably a huge reason why they had to wait

504
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 1: to invent the machine gun. In order to take most

505
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: of Africa.

506
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the mosquitos was killing him.

507
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, we weren't getting the yellow fever, like we

508
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 3: just wouldn't given it, and it was.

509
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the people who are gonna get sick and

510
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: died already gotten sick and died, you know, whereas all

511
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 1: the soldiers had just shown up and were just like

512
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: completely destroyed.

513
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

514
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: And charms and omulets and poisons would be called macanda still,

515
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: and a practitioner who makes these might get called them Macandal.

516
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 1: It's possible that the etymology goes the other way, that

517
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: he got the name macandal not because of where he

518
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 1: was from or like whatever, but because of what he did.

519
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: They might have called him that as sort of a

520
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 1: word for like witch or you know, yeah, practitioner. But

521
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: that's okay. So this is that's the story I was

522
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:05,479
Speaker 1: prepared to tell you.

523
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

524
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: I've read it. I've read a dozen ways, and is

525
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: a wonderful story, and I sort of secretly hope it's

526
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: true what I'm guessing happened based on this book. And like,

527
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: maybe this random book from twenty twenty three isn't true, right,

528
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't know this story that it presents about what

529
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: happened with Makendahal maps so clearly to what we've talked

530
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: about over and over on the show about hysteria around

531
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: magic and witchcraft. It parallels the story of Elizabeth Battori

532
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 1: was the you heard about the like usually people call

533
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 1: her Bathory and she like bathed in the blood of

534
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: virgins to stay forever young. She was one of the

535
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: first people we sort of accidentally covered on the show.

536
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: She almost certainly was just like a healer woman who

537
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: was like a rich aristocratic lady who lived alone and

538
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: taught girls how to become healers. But she owed the

539
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: king owed her money, so the king went after her

540
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: and like wow, had like an inquisition against her and

541
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: locked her up in her own castle and accused her

542
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: of killing virgins or whatever. You know, I.

543
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 3: Swear like us Listen, Yeah, I'm glad, Margaret. I'm glad

544
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 3: you got out when you could. Because men are just

545
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 3: like I just like sometimes I'd just be like, oh this,

546
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 3: oh that woman's smart witch.

547
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

548
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: Oh they don't like they don't like, they really just don't.

549
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes they just like being alone among themselves and they

550
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about nobody sexualizing their bodies or.

551
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 2: Like yeah, bro, like what like she can read witch?

552
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, just to say nothing wrong with which was nothing

553
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:42,719
Speaker 4: wrong with horrors?

554
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: Nope, we support, we stand, and but people are saying

555
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 1: it in a real not nice way.

556
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, listen, yes, yeah, you know what's great?

557
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 5: Do you know what's great though?

558
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 2: What?

559
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 1: Oh?

560
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 5: Witchy horror?

561
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah and witchy horror?

562
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 4: Oh?

563
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: Whoa some of my best friends, some of your best friends?

564
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: Was the music?

565
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: Some of my friends just the witchiest soares you've ever met?

566
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: Yeah?

567
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 3: Man, oh, this girl knows how it like knows that

568
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: this flower when you mix it with this when it

569
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: makes a good.

570
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 1: Tea, which yea better burn her? Yeah, and it And

571
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: it also happens to people who marginalize in other ways.

572
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 1: It happens to people who racialize. The whole history of

573
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: the way that people talk about voodoo and voodoo is

574
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: this right? It's like, what you have a religion where

575
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: you sacrifice an animal? It's clearly the devil.

576
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, what, okay, what are you talking about?

577
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: Sacrificial lamb? Got it?

578
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.

579
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

580
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: It's good when we drink blood. It's bad when you

581
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: and I would say ours is uh is not literal,

582
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: but Catholics literally believe it's literal.

583
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, transubstantiation, transistantiation. Yeah.

584
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: So the short version what this book presents the idea

585
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: of is he he never poisoned anyone. Really, he was

586
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: a He was a kind of wacky cult leader who

587
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: was framed up and executed during a like a panic,

588
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: a witch panic.

589
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: More or less, I wish I wish listeners could see

590
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 3: my face repressing right now. I'm like what yeah, oh yeah.

591
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: And and so it's like and I feel hesitant saying

592
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: it because this is a like he's an important cultural figure.

593
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 3: He's a big deal. Like a lot of people are

594
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 3: named Francois because of him.

595
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like yeah, like what I'm gonna quote Seal R.

596
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: James about him soon, you know, like like he's an

597
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: important fucking figure.

598
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

599
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: But the whole like kill all the white people is

600
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: the thing I currently believe. I could, I could, I

601
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: could be proven wrong. I would support this man either way.

602
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: It was probably white people freaking out. It was probably

603
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: a like a panic on some.

604
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: Nat Turner type panic. Yeah. Yeah, I never thought of

605
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 2: it like that. Dang.

606
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's this whole thing, where like

607
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 1: oppressors are always convinced that the people that they oppress

608
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: are just waiting to turn the tables and do the

609
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,239
Speaker 1: exact opposite. Yeah, right, like Israeli citizens who are like, oh,

610
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: we can't free Palestine because then they'll kill us all

611
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: because we treated them so badly for so long. Yeah,

612
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: Or white people in the US who are like, who

613
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 1: believe that the majority of black people want to kill

614
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: all the white people instead of end white power? Right?

615
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Yeah?

616
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: And I actually think if he had wanted to kill

617
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 1: all the white people on the island, I think there's

618
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: an understandable impulse and might have been strategically sound like, yeah,

619
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: you get into the blurry like it's probably never good

620
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: to kill children, you know, Like I mean you brought

621
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 1: up that Turner earlier, right, Like you know that Turner,

622
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: as far as I understand his raids, absolutely killed like

623
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: you know, non combatant white people or whatever.

624
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: H Yeah, you just gonna grow up and become a slaver.

625
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 2: So yeah.

626
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: But like if you're in the Saw movie and you

627
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: have a chance to try and stop the next one,

628
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: I am not at you, Like, yeah, in the abstract, no,

629
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: don't kill innocent people, you know, Yeah, but like I'm

630
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: not mad at that turner, and I am not mad

631
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: at the version that I thought this man was.

632
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. That's wow, that is it makes

633
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: so much sense, the idea that like, well, yeah.

634
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: It was a it was a panic, yeah, and yeah

635
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 3: he was and he was you know, he probably inspired

636
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: some people. You know, maybe some people got poisoned because again,

637
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 3: like we make your food, yeah, do you know, so

638
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 3: like yeah, like I don't, I mean, we good, you know.

639
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: And it's one of the things that I like almost

640
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: like literally keeps me up a night because I'm a

641
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: little bit obsessive about my job is the fact that

642
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: like you start off with the version of the story

643
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: like take patre Oh she bathed in virgin blood to

644
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: stay young forever, and you're like, no, she probably didn't, right, Yeah,

645
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: she's probably like a healer, right, but but what if

646
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 1: she did, Now that would actually not be an ethical

647
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: thing to do, but liketal, it's not boring, is an

648
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: interesting thing, and then like all kinds of shit like

649
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: in that story. One of the reasons she ended up

650
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: the way she did theoretically, but again, she probably didn't

651
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: turn out the way people say she did uh huh.

652
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: She watched her dad, who was like the count or

653
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck, execute someone by cutting open a cow

654
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: and then swing the person alive into the stomach of

655
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: the cow. What And that is not contested. The way

656
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 1: that Europeans killed people. It seemed like every time they

657
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: executed them, they had to come up with the most

658
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: widely coyote way of doing it.

659
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, like they just got bored. Ye just think of

660
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 2: some mills.

661
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: And so then I read about like there's this whole

662
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: thing where Italian women were poisoning their husbands because before

663
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: Republicans want to get rid of no fault divorce, the

664
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: thing that women had before no fault divorce was we

665
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: make your food and we're going to poison you. And

666
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: that's real as best as I can tell. And it

667
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: seems real that there was this quote unquote magical underground

668
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: in a lot of Western European cities, like in the

669
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: early modern era, like medieval era or whatever, where you

670
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: go and you can talk to someone who will provide

671
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: abortion for you, who will read your fortune, who will

672
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: do this. It's called a service. Magic is the way

673
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: an anthropologist everyone talks about it.

674
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just.

675
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: Going to come back into this story in a little bit.

676
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: And maybe those people killed kids. I don't know they

677
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: were accused of it. Yeah, they probably didn't. But yeah,

678
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: we've lived in this world long enough to see crazy shit,

679
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Yeah happen in the news. So like like the Satanic

680
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: panic of the eighties, those kids weren't out there of

681
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: sacrificing kids to worship the devil, but someone probably did

682
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 1: at some point, right.

683
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 3: Like Mighty was being funny and just enjoy themselves and yeah,

684
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 3: you're right, that is true, dude.

685
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and so so yeah, this poison plot almost

686
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: certainly just describing hysteria. But as you pointed out, probably

687
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: a bunch of these people got poisoned.

688
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: Idea.

689
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah maybe not by Mackndall, but like they certainly deserved

690
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: to be.

691
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: It's easier, Yeah, it's easier.

692
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 3: It's needed to wrap this thing that you don't understand.

693
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 3: Just wrap it up with a nice little bow with

694
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 3: a person. This, dude, is where it came from.

695
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: Totally. It just easier to wrap your brain around that totally. Yeah.

696
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: No, that's such a good way to put it, because like, okay,

697
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: and so the idea that he was going to kill

698
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: all the white people. Whatever is probably propaganda. And the

699
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: argument that is made about this, we know that there

700
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: is propaganda that says this. The year he was killed

701
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: seventeen fifty eight, there were already anti black pamphlets circulating

702
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: around France about how he had been leading an army

703
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: set on killing all the white people. By seventeen eighty seven,

704
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: there was a new version going around that he was

705
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: just a crazy man. He was a gifted healer who

706
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: had been driven mad by the evils of slavery. And

707
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: after the Haitian Revolution, this was the version of the

708
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: story that's spread. Cel R. James one of the more

709
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: important black theorists and historians. Yeah, he wrote a book

710
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: called The Black Jacobins about the Haitian Revolution in nineteen

711
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 1: thirty eight, and in it he wrote, quote, an uninstructed

712
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: mass feeling its way to revolution usually begins by terrorism,

713
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: and Mackndahl aimed at delivering his people by means of poison. Yeah,

714
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: and so it's like it is a justifiable thing to believe.

715
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

716
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no like, dude, even listening to your past

717
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,400
Speaker 3: episodes just about various things that different anarchist revolutions and

718
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 3: stuff like that, that happened in Europe, like I think out

719
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 3: of just trauma, pain and protest, I like refuse to

720
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: learn about a lot of Europe, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah,

721
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 3: fair so much more. Yeah, Earth is much larger than this, guys.

722
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 3: You know. So but that being said, you miss out

723
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 3: on a lot of like pretty dope shit that was

724
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 3: going on up there. You know, you sometimes get to

725
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 3: this place to where you're like, damn, like I can't,

726
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: we can't, we can't know what happened, you know. So

727
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 3: then I start thinking about now and I'm like, well,

728
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 3: how many how many things can I not really explain

729
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: to y'all? Like how am I going to explain like

730
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: Sophie appreciate this? How am I going to explain Kendrick

731
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: and Drake to y'all to a hundred years from now?

732
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: How am I going to say? Like I like, it's

733
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 3: I'm listening, you know, with the Bastard's thing on Oprah,

734
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 3: Like I can't understate how big Oprah is, you know,

735
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 3: And or was like to be like mister beast like.

736
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: Is that like how do I how do.

737
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: I make you understand? You know what I'm saying? Like

738
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: That's what I was trying to say with Drake with

739
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 3: a lot of your young lings. I was like, listen,

740
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 3: I can't understate how big of a star jaw Rule was,

741
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: Like when I tell you Jah Rule was Drake like,

742
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 3: and he's a joke now because of fifty cent And

743
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 3: I don't know how Like I know that doesn't make

744
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 3: sense to you, but you just like I, I can't.

745
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 2: Draw this straight line for you.

746
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 3: So I think about now how frustrated I would be

747
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 3: to be like when Kendrick said he's not like us,

748
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 3: like all of what that means?

749
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 2: Who is us? What do we mean by that?

750
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 3: Like this was a this is a like I'm I'm

751
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: I'm trying to make a parallel here, but like, this

752
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 3: is a moment. It's a moment in pop culture, subculture

753
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 3: and hip hop culture. This is a like I'm not

754
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 3: being corny, this is a water that was a watershed moment.

755
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 3: Ye like that I think changed the music industry and

756
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: changed hip hop forever. Like I truly believe that moment

757
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 3: what Kendrick did right now, But how do you how

758
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 3: do we do it? How do we do a cool

759
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 3: people episode on Kendrick? Like I don't know how to

760
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,000
Speaker 3: explain what this and how this moment came because because

761
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 3: this happened, well, then I have to talk about Mustard

762
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: sending in five beats a day for three months, you

763
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: know what I mean? And that's why we're going star

764
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, like, I don't I don't

765
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,360
Speaker 3: know how to I don't know what's myth.

766
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: Just send that video up and playing. They're not like

767
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 4: us like seventeen times.

768
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 5: At the forum.

769
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 2: It's so amazing.

770
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 4: So and then just like seeing everybody's faces in the crowd,

771
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 4: it's like that's it.

772
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 2: But how do you put it back? Yeah?

773
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 5: But how do you put that into words? Is the question?

774
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 2: How do I put it into words?

775
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 3: Yeah? And then so then what do you do? You

776
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, you film a biopic and you say, oh, yeah,

777
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: you know, Kendrick.

778
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: I simplify it.

779
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: You simplify it.

780
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: But it's like it's frustrating because like it was so

781
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: much more beautiful than that. Yeah, you know, so whatever

782
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 3: happened with francois that Like I'm really my mind blown

783
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 3: by being because what you're saying is so possible that

784
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 3: it's like probably wasn't even probably wasn't even that serious,

785
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 3: Like you know.

786
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and and and so much is built up

787
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: around this concept that you almost get into this like

788
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 1: at a certain point it almost becomes true, you know,

789
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: it almost like yeah, it's so messy and I don't know. Yeah,

790
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: the the unknowableness of so much of this. Yeah, it's

791
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: the thing that keeps me up at night is that

792
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, I will read all of these different sources

793
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: and all of them are flawed. But that's like, oh lord,

794
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: the concept of exploring mysteries you can't understand is like

795
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: central of the Catholic faith. And yeah, like the idea

796
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: that you can never know God, right, you just can

797
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: kind of peace out around it. That's like how I

798
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 1: feel like trying to read this history shit is that

799
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, well I have all of these impressions,

800
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,839
Speaker 1: and somewhere in the impression is the blurry truth, you know.

801
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

802
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: And it's supposed to be like bouncing off the mysticism

803
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: of the of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, evangelicalism tried to

804
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: turn it into a rubric and here's your points. But

805
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 3: that's supposed to be beautiful, yeah, supposed to be inspiring

806
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 3: that you that this is above us. It's this this

807
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 3: transcendent thing that all of us are attracted to, and

808
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 3: we can't wrap our minds around it or wrap our

809
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 3: hands around it. And that's what makes it divine. And

810
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 3: you're supposed that's supposed to inspire you. Yeah, you rather

811
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 3: than getting your arms around it, building a fence and

812
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 3: saying I understand who God is and you don't, you

813
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying.

814
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 2: So yeah, So like.

815
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 3: I however, well we talk about hit, I'm frustrated. Yeah,

816
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 3: but with history, I'm like, no, but like what happened though,

817
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 3: I know.

818
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: I know, you know exactly. No, Yeah, yeah, Like, well

819
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: what John de Garrigus claims happened. Quote He was a

820
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: diviner in the Congo tradition who formed spiritual communities for

821
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: healing and self defense, and doing so, he established one

822
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: of the multiple cultures of resistance that emerged in the

823
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: decades before the Haitian Revolution. Other enslaved people took vengeance

824
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 1: against their enslavers or appealed to colonial courts to protect

825
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: them from torture and abuse. Still, others planned and participated

826
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: labor stoppages and strikes against plantation policies and leadership. Enslave

827
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: people were thinking strategically about their lives as they imagined

828
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: and worked for a future in which French colonists would

829
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: no longer dominate sand among And so he's saying, like, look,

830
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: he did something interesting. He created these like communities for

831
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: self defense and healing and other people who weren't just

832
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 1: led by him. He didn't have like an army everywhere,

833
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, got all this shit done? And what

834
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 1: what the he claims actually happened. What these communities for

835
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: healing and self defense are was that they all got

836
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: together and did its sports ad gambling stuff.

837
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 2: Did it to me a kid?

838
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: Thank you? Thank you.

839
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 3: I honestly think if we ever do a Cool Zone Awards,

840
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: like Margaret a girl, you.

841
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 4: Use the judge for the Coal Zone Awards because it's me.

842
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 4: I'm like, you get a trophy, you get a trophy,

843
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 4: you get you get.

844
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 5: A trophy, everybody gets a trophy.

845
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't be the judge.

846
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 3: I'd like then no one else is ever like like

847
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 3: actually tricks me.

848
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, what happens next?

849
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: What it takes a deep cynesis because with Robert he

850
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: changes his voice.

851
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, the pitch is different, you're.

852
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 5: Fully stay in tone.

853
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty good, thanks.

854
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 5: Whereas Robert's like and you know who.

855
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like, oh, commercial.

856
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 5: Coming, and you're like, yeah, are we fucking five billion?

857
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 1: And here's some of them unless you have cooler zone media,

858
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: in which case here's none of them and we're back.

859
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 1: So in terms of what happened, Okay, you ever had

860
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: a roommate or you like live with people who aren't

861
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: your roommates and something goes missing and you're like, damn

862
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 1: you roommate, you probably stole my thing like that. Oh absolutely, yeah, sibling.

863
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, listen, living with another human yeah yeah.

864
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: Now, imagine you're a guy who owns people and you

865
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: get sick because you ate some bad meat. M Who

866
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: are you going to blame?

867
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: Probably the probably the people that cooked the meat.

868
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So people were getting sick and dying because they

869
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 1: were bad at being humans. Uh, and they had bad food.

870
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: They were like they had stored stockpiled food that spoiled

871
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: and they ate it anyway because they're dumb Europeans.

872
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 3: You poisoned us, Yeah, no, sir, the air did. Yeah,

873
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 3: that's called sal Manila.

874
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah okay, yeah.

875
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: Or like they get mosquito bit and they're dying and

876
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: they're like I bet it was. And to be fair,

877
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 1: if you are like a monster who is destroying hundreds

878
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: of thousands of people's lives, it's reasonable to think that

879
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: they're the ones who hurt you.

880
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 3: And that again makes so much sense. And if you

881
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 3: and if you, the black people you like could be

882
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 3: exactly maybe I did. Yeah, maybe I did. You know

883
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: what I'm saying, like, do nothing? They just left You

884
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 3: left the milk out all night and then drank it

885
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 3: real like, yeah.

886
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: You ain't smell that beef before you cooked it. You see,

887
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: we wasn't eating it. Yeah, you don't feed us nothing,

888
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: and we knew not to eat that. Yeah.

889
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so that is the It seems like historians

890
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: are leaning towards the some people just ate some bad

891
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: food for a while because some stores went bad.

892
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 3: And the moral of the story is the great African

893
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 3: American proverb, wash your chicken.

894
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I.

895
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: Know scientifically you're not supposed to, but.

896
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 5: Wash your chicken, wash your rice.

897
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: Wash your chicken, wash your rice. Anyway, what were you saying? No?

898
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: No, okay, So but it seems likely just trace the

899
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: story of Mackindal by this other, this new presentation of

900
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: it is that up until the point he's in maroon

901
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: were more or less all in the same page. He

902
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: walks into the mountains and then he kind of just

903
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: starts a cult. He has a fairly absentee owner, so

904
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 1: he can kind of just walk around pretending to be

905
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: a free black man. I think his owner's usually out

906
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: to sea, because like the wife, the new husband is

907
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: like off to see or whatever. He has a little

908
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: spot in the mountains and he has followers living there

909
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: of a religious tradition that derives from Congo practices that

910
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: are not Vodu. In particular, he makes it, distributes charms,

911
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: get called Mackandal's, and almost everyone coming from these traditions,

912
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: as I read it, at least was carrying some kind

913
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: of charmer fetish at this point, like a lot of

914
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: different practices had you do this, but these ones were

915
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: meant to be different. These ones were considered alive. They

916
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: had to be fed and such. The mock and dolls

917
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: were made of bone fragments from a baptized child taken

918
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: from a graveyard, mixed with other stuff like grated plantain

919
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: root and soot from a cooking pot, communion bread wrapped

920
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: up with a little lead cross. The missionaries were giving

921
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: everyone lead crosses, so they had a lot of them. Yeah,

922
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: and he would give you a mac and doll and

923
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: he'd say, now you're not allowed to eat beans or

924
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: fresh meat except for poultry, and you can't drink wine

925
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: and if you do, your macandal will stop working unless

926
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 1: you atone. Some of this seems like food safety stuff, right, Yeah,

927
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 1: some of it might have been. You know, a lot

928
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: of different religions have been like, oh, we got to

929
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: come up with some way to get people to stop drinking.

930
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: So that yeah, people, yeah, start.

931
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 1: Acting right or whatever. Some of the stuff around the

932
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,839
Speaker 1: religious practices I'm more skeptical about, just because they raise

933
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: my red flags of like, well, I'm about to tell

934
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: you that they worship the literal devil in the second

935
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: and that's the part that raises the leg Did they Yeah,

936
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 1: I don't know. In that same way that like people

937
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,800
Speaker 1: are always like, oh, these kids worship the devil, and

938
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: I'm like, I bet some of them.

939
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: Did.

940
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: I have friends who do? Like no, Yeah, you know,

941
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: there's some politics in what he's doing because in the

942
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: Congolese tradition, he's from healing people meant healing. The land

943
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 1: illness was caused by bad social relations, and so it's

944
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: like this is a sick place because of all this

945
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: stuff is happening. He seemed fairly legitimate about like he

946
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 1: also seemed to be actually a good healer and people

947
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: will come to him from all over and stuff. And

948
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: when I say that it was a cult, I'm claiming

949
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 1: it as distinct from Votu, which was not a cult.

950
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 1: And it seems that his ceremonies started with cursing both

951
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: white people and anyone who wasn't yet initiated who was black,

952
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: So like everyone who's not with us is bad or whatever,

953
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: and that's the where I'm like, if that's true, it's

954
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: kind of culty.

955
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

956
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: They theoretically had a cut called the Devil's Hut that

957
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: had the largest mocand doll of them all in it.

958
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: They also worshiped God. It wasn't a like, you know, literally,

959
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: it was kind of a like, ah, you Christians are

960
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 1: forcing us to do this shit, and you got God

961
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: and the devil or whatever, they're both fine.

962
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: Put them on the shelf. It's fine.

963
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is is the largest macandall of them all

964
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: the size of a child. And they would worship it

965
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: and then say there's nothing in the world greater than

966
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 1: God Satan and after those two Francois macndal. Wow. And

967
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: I am afraid of this just being and playing into stereotypes,

968
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 1: But it seems to be being presented as a as

969
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: a historical way of looking at a thing that happened,

970
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 1: and it overall is it's not coming from a position

971
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: of like, oh and those wacky you know, devil worshipers

972
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: or whatever. He helped a lot of people. He formed

973
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: a little counter society outside of slave society. Also again

974
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: you're like, even if you're like, ah, it's a little weird,

975
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: like the other thing is slave society.

976
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, man, I'm gonna go.

977
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 3: I think i'd I'd take my chances with the with

978
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 3: the weird kulti voodoo then.

979
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:43,760
Speaker 2: To continue to be a slave.

980
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

981
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

982
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: And he's basically a service magician. He is, you know,

983
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: present in basically every society throughout history as you have

984
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: the person who performs divination and healing and stuff. The

985
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 1: main thing the book I read didn't call him a

986
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: cult leader. That's my interpretation of what I read. Yeah,

987
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: they called them a diviner, and that seems very likely.

988
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: And a service magician is contrasted from witchcraft. Witchcraft in

989
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: this context, not Haitian context, but the context of like

990
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: talking about pre modern magic whatever. Witchcraft is like magic

991
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: that does stuff I don't want it to. So witchcraft

992
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,760
Speaker 1: is the like poison your crops and kill your cattle

993
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: and make you unfertile and like, you know, and service

994
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: magicians including Macandahl regularly work to counter witchcraft. So among

995
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: his like charms and stuff is he'd be like, well,

996
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: I can tell you who is poisoning you, you know,

997
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: I can. I can divine who has cursed you, right, okay.

998
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: And it was actually this particular task, the figuring out

999
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 1: who poisoned someone that got him killed because people were

1000
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: dying a bunch of bad food at the time, or

1001
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: possibly being poisoned. I don't know, but probably mostly the

1002
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 1: supplies had gone bad, and there's this mass hysteria and

1003
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: colonial authorities are convinced that it is evil African magic

1004
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: killing everyone. And so before they got to him, they

1005
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: rounded up a bunch of other like suspected poisoners in

1006
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,959
Speaker 1: a very witchcraft trial way where they're like you grab

1007
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: one person, you torture them, and they're like, ah, my

1008
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: friends made me do it and they name them and

1009
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: then they go get them and you torture them and yeah,

1010
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: you know. And so they were already afraid of the

1011
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: big evil poison plot to kill all the white people,

1012
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: and the coffee plantations have been creeping up the mountains

1013
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: and it was more people from Congo, and so that

1014
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,439
Speaker 1: was like one of the communities he was working within,

1015
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: and they had their big December dance, their work party,

1016
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: and they invited him because they needed him to help

1017
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: divine who had been poisoning them. But then a little

1018
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: boy went and told the white people that there was

1019
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: a poisoner at the dance.

1020
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: Damn it, I know, I know.

1021
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: Two colonists grabbed him and they didn't have any shackles,

1022
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: so they hog tied him and then tied him to

1023
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: a fifty pound weight. What And then yeah, because speaking

1024
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: of the way that you Europeans would like murder people

1025
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: like the whole like all of the terrible devices that

1026
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 1: blacksmiths came up with to do to enslave people like.

1027
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 2: But like why though, yeah why yeah? Yeah.

1028
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I watched a movie about

1029
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 1: a Maroon community and it had one of the people

1030
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,120
Speaker 1: in one of those like net cages with spikes pointing

1031
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: to your neck so your head has to stay up right.

1032
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:28,920
Speaker 1: And I remember like seeing that in the movie and

1033
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: I was like, dear Internet, and the Internet was like yeah, no, no, yeah,

1034
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: people used to do that to people, Like yeah, yeah

1035
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: for real, Yeah that was the thing. Imagine living in

1036
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:39,479
Speaker 1: that society and being like this.

1037
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 2: Is all right, you know, and and that you're on

1038
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 2: the right side of history. Yeah, Like how do you

1039
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: fucking sleep at night?

1040
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 4: How?

1041
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: How do you think of it? Like we do? Do

1042
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: you just come to you in a drink? Like how

1043
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 2: you think of it?

1044
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're clearly enjoying the art form of your work.

1045
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: And I yeah, I like don't traditionally believe in hell

1046
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: is a concept, but I might now you.

1047
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,520
Speaker 2: Know, no fam that came out of it. Yeah.

1048
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: So he has a fifty pound weight tied to him.

1049
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: They hold him captive. After his guards fall asleep, he

1050
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: crawls out the window, even though he's still tied up,

1051
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: and he is like running through the fields, probably dragging

1052
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: his fifty pound weight. They catch him with dogs. They

1053
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: arrest him. He's held in jail. In court, he denied

1054
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 1: making poisons. He did name some of his followers. I

1055
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: assume he's being tortured, and these are all they're all arrested,

1056
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:33,439
Speaker 1: and I think most of them are killed too. There's

1057
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,919
Speaker 1: almost no records of the trial. Instead of it being

1058
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: like the actual records of the trial, it's the like

1059
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: side notes, like the recollect like the people talking about

1060
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: it or whatever. There's no evidence brought against him for poisoning,

1061
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: even though that's what he's killed for. Oh, he was convicted,

1062
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: and among his many things was seducing slaves and corrupting people.

1063
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: He was also the reason they burned him at the

1064
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 1: stake is that what he did was sacrilegious because he

1065
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: crosses in his charms, even though he's from a place

1066
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: that's been using crosses in their charms for two hundred

1067
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: and fifty years, because the Congo has had Christians there

1068
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: for a really long time, for a long time.

1069
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:08,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1070
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he was accused of trying to start a

1071
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: race war. The only theoretical thing that possibly in any

1072
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: way backs us up. Though again like literally, if all

1073
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: the white people have decided that all the blood whatever, anyway,

1074
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 1: I don't need to justify this. Yeah. The only thing

1075
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 1: that he might have done that said something like that

1076
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: is that. There's a one follower said that he performed

1077
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 1: a magic trick once where he took a he turned

1078
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: a cloth from olive to white to black, like kind

1079
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: of just like handkerchief magic, you know, oh yeah, yeah,

1080
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: which is really charming. And when he did it, he

1081
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: used it to represent who rules the island. Olive was

1082
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: the indigenous people, white for the French, and black for

1083
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: the people who would rule. And this was like, see,

1084
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 1: he's going to have a race war like again whatever.

1085
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1086
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: By the end of the day, the I just handed

1087
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 1: down the sentence and he was burned at the stake

1088
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: the same day.

1089
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 2: Damn.

1090
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: While he was on fire, he pulled his shackles out

1091
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: from the post and ran for it. He was recaptured

1092
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: and tied up again. And then I don't have any

1093
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 1: reason to say that he didn't turn into a mosquito

1094
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: and killed all the invading armies, because it could be,

1095
00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: you know. And that is uh the end of part two.

1096
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: I remember four partner in the Haitian Revolution.

1097
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: Francois getting us to thirty years before the Haitian Revolution.

1098
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 3: Shall stiff got to the revolution. I'm just no Haiti

1099
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 3: still got slaves right now? If you're keeping up. There's

1100
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,919
Speaker 3: still still slaves in Haiti right now.

1101
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: I've tried a couple of times to keep up with

1102
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: what's going on in Haiti, and it is I don't

1103
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 1: want to be like gets messy and so therefore I

1104
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 1: don't understand it. But I just like literally haven't really

1105
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: come to understand it yet.

1106
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,479
Speaker 3: Oh right now, it's it's it's like it's the Warriors movie.

1107
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: It's gangs.

1108
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and even the guy that's the prime minister, his

1109
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 3: name is Barbecue no Less.

1110
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I remember from Barbecue Gang Gang.

1111
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, yeah, like it's pretty The first crash

1112
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 3: out was a few years back, when you know, the

1113
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 3: prime minister left. They just ran him out and he

1114
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 3: was he was somewhere in Columbia, and I think that

1115
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: that was like an they put a hit out on you.

1116
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but like, yeah.

1117
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,240
Speaker 3: I say this with all like a complete straight face.

1118
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, no, that's it's.

1119
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not safe in Port de Prince right now.

1120
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. And then just

1121
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: I mean watching what I don't know, hundreds of years

1122
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: of just like every other country in the world, just

1123
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: trying to fuck you.

1124
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,799
Speaker 3: I just the only like, imagine you're a kid. You're

1125
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 3: playing djenga in just like every ten minutes, somebody, your

1126
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 3: brother's friend just comes and kicks the shit out of

1127
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: the whole thing. Yeah, and you're just like, well, damn.

1128
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 3: And then you try to do it again, somebody else

1129
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 3: just kicks the shit out of the whole thing.

1130
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then they're all looking at you like, how

1131
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: come you don't know how to do janga? Yeah, you're

1132
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 2: so bad at this. It keeps falling over.

1133
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 3: Suck it Jenga. And I'm like, well, if you didn't

1134
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 3: kick it, yeah, might be able to figure some shit out.

1135
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then you just took half the bricks.

1136
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1137
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1138
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: The more you learn about how wealth is just systemically

1139
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: stripped from marginalized communities, including in the United States, just

1140
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 1: just which means that they're producing wealth, Like they wouldn't

1141
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: put a chain store into a ghetto if it didn't

1142
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 1: give them money, if there wasn't wealth being produced in

1143
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,359
Speaker 1: that community, and they want it for themselves instead.

1144
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:38,360
Speaker 2: Thank you that.

1145
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: Thank thank you for saying that, because I'm like, why, like,

1146
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 3: why why is Africa?

1147
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1148
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 3: Just farmed and raped and drained and tapped dry by

1149
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 3: Europe and the rest of the Western ass because it's

1150
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 3: got shipp.

1151
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's rich as fuck. Yeah, it's rich as fuck.

1152
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: That's why. Yeah. Yeah, damn man.

1153
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 1: Well on that pleasant.

1154
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 2: Hey, at least they're about to have the most successful

1155
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 2: slaver vault in history.

1156
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 3: I was like, does the cool part start? Yeah, Okay,

1157
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 3: that's what I signed up for.

1158
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: No, I know, and and what I thought he was

1159
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: just this poisoner guy. That's why I was like, and

1160
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna leave on a high note because he's

1161
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 1: gonna do this amazing thing. And then I'm like, but

1162
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,319
Speaker 1: he still did this amazing thing. You know. It's like

1163
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: leading a like both free and unfree people into like

1164
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: healing and like community in the mountains. Like yeah, for years,

1165
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, he was for a decade he was up

1166
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: there as a maroon and again in the Saw Factory.

1167
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: I've never seen the Saw movies. Is going to be

1168
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: really obvious to everyone who has is I keep using

1169
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: this discomparison. Yeah, it's just my Like, it's literally like

1170
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: the most horror I can horror imagine, because the reason

1171
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: I don't watch it is because it's too.

1172
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,479
Speaker 3: Hard, you know, Yeah, I feel you, but no, I think, yeah,

1173
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 3: I think the yeah, like the messiness that we talked

1174
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 3: about earlier, you know, is something to me. But I

1175
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 3: think there is something to be said about like just

1176
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: myth making, and like sometimes that like myth making becomes

1177
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 3: like you said, that becomes the truth. Yeah, you know,

1178
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 3: and that's like and which is you know, us as

1179
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 3: people who enjoy history, ends up that actually ends up

1180
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 3: being more true than what happened. Yeah, because because the

1181
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 3: myth making is impact, Yes, is the impact and how

1182
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 3: that affected the rest of the world that you were in.

1183
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 3: It created a reality that existed because of this myth.

1184
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 3: So I think so to that point, yeah, the myth

1185
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 3: is also something that should be understood in its historical context.

1186
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. And even the fact that like how deeply Haiti

1187
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: the Haitian Revolution scared all of the like white colonial forces. Yeah,

1188
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,440
Speaker 1: like and then they all punished them for it. But

1189
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 1: it's like that's how intense the impact was. Even though

1190
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: it like yeah, kind of it's still better than not

1191
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: having had that revolution, right, but like sure it kind

1192
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: of didn't work out great for them, you know, yeah,

1193
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: the white lash, but like but someone's got to do something,

1194
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: you know. And also like it really did spur on

1195
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: so much of US abolitionism, even.

1196
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 2: Though it like absolutely yeah, and there.

1197
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: Was people like going from the US over to Haiti

1198
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 1: and there was like people planning to invade the US.

1199
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: There was like, I can't remember his name, there's an

1200
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: abolitionist as a black man and self emancipated and then

1201
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: like went to Haiti to raise an army and was

1202
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: going to invade.

1203
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: But then I think it was gonna come back.

1204
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1205
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 1: I think then that the Civil War kicked off while

1206
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: he was getting ready for that, and so he was like,

1207
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: all right, let's go do that instead, you know.

1208
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but yeah, it's.

1209
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 1: So impactful anyway, whatever, we'll keep talking about how it's impactful.

1210
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: As we talked about what happened.

1211
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: I can't wait, man.

1212
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, the politics will PROP. I'm gonna go

1213
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 3: straight to the to the ads. Hell, yeah, to the

1214
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 3: plug politics will prop. Yeah. You can go to prop

1215
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 3: hip hop dot com to get I got some shows

1216
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 3: coming up, like uh Dope on it LA with Sa

1217
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 3: Rock if you know indie hip hop rhyme sayers, she's

1218
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 3: one of the dopest MC's on Earth. Sunset Rooftop Flyers

1219
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 3: on the website, terror Form the book out, please please

1220
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: support some poetry, and yeah, in the podcast is still

1221
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 3: kicking in, screaming and it's visual now.

1222
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,280
Speaker 1: Also hell yeah, And if anyone who doesn't listen to it,

1223
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 1: it is just genuinely one of the best like ways

1224
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 1: of understanding what's happening in modern politics that I've ever heard.

1225
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 2: So I really appreciate that people should listen to it.

1226
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: And if you want to pay more attention to what

1227
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: I do, Oh, I have a book coming out. I

1228
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: say that all the time. Yes, I write a lot

1229
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: of books.

1230
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 2: You write a lot of books.

1231
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: But first I'm going to cough, but then Rory's gonna

1232
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: cut out my coffee, and so I'm just gonna say

1233
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna cough, but then there's not gonna be a cough,

1234
00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: and you' all are gonna be very confused. But I

1235
00:59:50,360 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 1: have a book called The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice

1236
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:55,200
Speaker 1: is the third book in the Danielle Kine series, and

1237
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,600
Speaker 1: we'll be kickstarting it in March. And part of that

1238
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,680
Speaker 1: is that there will be audiobook version of the first

1239
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: two books too, And if you want to hear the

1240
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 1: first book, I read it to Robert Evans on this

1241
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: very podcast. If you go back far enough, if you

1242
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: go back in Cool Zone Media book Club, Let's go

1243
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: and yeah, that's a that's about it.

1244
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that you're like this is no gas,

1245
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 3: Like I'm not blowing smoke. I like, you're one of

1246
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 3: the smartest humans I know. And it's and it has

1247
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 3: a lot to do with like your the breadth of

1248
01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 3: like where your intelligence lies is like I said, it's

1249
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 3: like it's in an area that like.

1250
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: I just skipped. I was like, I'm skipping that chapter,

1251
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 2: you know, But it ended up.

1252
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,640
Speaker 3: Being such like connective tissue for a lot of the

1253
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 3: stuff I did end up like spending most of my

1254
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 3: time understanding. So like I one reason why I enjoy

1255
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 3: the show, but like another reason like hearing you say like, no,

1256
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 3: no props, Prop's got a good show, Like it's like

1257
01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 3: heang like that.

1258
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 2: Actually I really take that as a compliment, like for.

1259
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, and I appreciate it. I don't know,

1260
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: I really like Cool Zone Media and I am proud

1261
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: to be part of it.

1262
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 3: The love Fest. Yeah, we are the Wu Tang of podcasts.

1263
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: Anyway, We will talk to you all next week with

1264
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: more about the Haitian Revolution.

1265
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: Please go.

1266
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1267
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media.

1268
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 5: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website.

1269
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 4: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1270
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1271
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 5: You get your podcasts.