WEBVTT - John Kasich On Trump's Disastrous Tariffs And Biden's Failure 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.040 Hello, They're happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:10.440 Chuck Podcast. So my guest later in this podcast, yesterday 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.080 we uploaded. I say yesterday. I know, in the world 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:19.239 of podcasting, perhaps you just you're listening to this the 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:22.279 day of my previous episode. How do I how about 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.560 we say that my previous episode, I had a former 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.360 Democratic governor of Washington, Stayed Jay ins Leon, who himself 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.800 ran for president in twenty twenty. Well, for this episode, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:33.280 I have a former Republican governor of the Great State 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:36.360 of Ohio who ran for president in twenty sixteen. It's 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:41.360 John Kasik. He's got a new book about how faith 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:46.600 communities can essentially do good in America in different ways. 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.280 And frankly, I think Kasik is somebody who is desperate to, 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:57.280 I think, revive a sense of local community again. He's 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.600 always kind of been that kind of politician, you know, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.240 he's you know, he made a name for himself at 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.240 first in Washington for being the budget guy, so it 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.679 was always cut cut cut. But you know, when I 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:14.919 think of the phrase compassionate conservative, which was made famous 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.400 by George W. Bush, to me, the avatar to that 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:19.760 is John Kasick, and before him, would have been a 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.480 guy named Jack Kemp. In the eighties, Jack Kemp was 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:28.520 considered a conservative with a heart and the point being. Look, 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.480 he was an advocate for smaller government, an advocate frankly 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:37.959 for more international engagement, an advocate for business, but also 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.840 an advocate for lifting people up. And being a former athlete, 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.920 he sort of was able to cut through the race issue. 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:44.640 You know. 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:47.840 He's one of those folks that I've always wanted to 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.680 write a book featuring the I can't believe they never 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.200 became president. Jack Kemp and Bill Bradley are my sort 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:57.360 of one A and one B, and I think it's 0:01:57.440 --> 0:01:59.720 Jack Camp, Bill Bradley, and John Glenn. You know, I 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:01.560 look at those four guys and you might throw Bob 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.480 Dole in there. You know, they they all ran. Don't 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.160 get me wrong, they all wanted to become president. They 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.520 all just ran in the wrong year in various ways 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.760 or in you know, they got on national tickets in 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.720 the wrong time, and you know, but for a different 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:20.880 political circumstance, they would have become president. Certainly had the 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:26.520 resume or the unique American background astronaut, athlete, you know, 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.960 et cetera. I think case it is one of these 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.840 people that this sort of has a little bit of 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:38.200 of of all of that sort of Oh what would 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:41.280 my friends in France call it genes sequa, meaning meaning 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:46.679 it's just this and he he just he feeds off 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.320 of community. And I mean that as a compliment on 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:51.680 that front. So I think you're going to enjoy this 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:56.560 conversation that we have really about figuring out how we 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:01.240 restore civics and a America in a way that's a 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.360 little less partisan and a little more productive. So I 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:06.600 hope you enjoy that conversation with him. And he's got 0:03:06.639 --> 0:03:11.160 plenty to say about the current situation in politics. But 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:14.760 I do think you'll enjoy this conversation. But before we 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:16.000 get to it, I want to pop in on a 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:19.600 couple of other issues. And to me, there's one giant 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:21.720 issue that is getting a little bit of attention but 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.200 probably deserves a lot more, and it's the current security 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:31.000 crisis in the Southeast Asia between India and Pakistan. And 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.600 it to me is this current situation is a troubling 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:41.080 reminder of what happens when American leadership retreats from the world. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:43.520 Now I'm not going to sit here and say America 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:46.080 is the cause of the situation. It is not okay. 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:50.120 This is a long standing regional rivalry between India and Pakistan. 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.760 It goes back. You know, we talk about a current 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.440 partition having to do with Israel and the Palestinians. You know, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:04:00.520 there's another partition that has also been the cause of 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:03.920 strife around in that region, and it's in India and Pakistan. 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.560 It was obviously the most just a quick refresher here, 0:04:08.640 --> 0:04:11.600 not sure how much you're following the story, but in 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.400 late April, April twenty second, it was a terrorist attack 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:19.560 in the Indian administered part of Kashmir. Twenty six civilians, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.080 mostly Hindu tourists, so there's a religious element here. The 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:30.280 Hindus and the Muslims were killed. A Pakistani based terrorist 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:35.080 organization called the Resistance Front claim responsibility, and India decided 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:37.400 to point the finger at Pakistan, the country saying they 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:43.000 were housing, essentially protecting these terrorist organizations. It's frankly a 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.240 similar thing that the US government had accused Pakistan up 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.520 back during the al Qaeda days. And of course where 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.440 did we find bin Laden in Pakistan? So this is 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:57.640 certainly not an unusual unusual situation and sort of how 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.000 things are managed in Pakistan. Pakistan's govern it has been 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.200 a mess from a while. You have a very you 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:06.240 have an sort of an independent intelligence agency that sometimes 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.239 feels like it operates on its own. The military literally 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.680 a military industrial complex and in many ways is the 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:15.400 stabilizer of the country. Civilian leadership that is either in 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.560 the pocket of the military or finds themselves in the 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:20.720 crosshairs of the military. But it is not a stable 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.760 There's an uneven check and balance that goes on there. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:26.840 So it is it is. It has always been a 0:05:26.960 --> 0:05:30.360 source of concern because both India and Pakistan have nukes, 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:35.160 but because of the unsteadiness of the governance of Pakistan, 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:39.640 and frankly, there's plenty of evidence that the that that 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:46.160 the notch of the nuclear intelligence that Iran in North 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.599 Korea has acquired has come through essentially leaks out of 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.800 Pakistan and a Pakistani scientist and things like this. So 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.760 it's always been an area of concern for a variety 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.760 of reasons, but loose nukes being the biggest one. But 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.520 obviously there is a when you're when you have your 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.680 own citizens attack and killed, most countries are going to 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:13.120 feel the need to respond. So on May sixth. India responded. 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.960 It called it Operation Sindoor. They made air strikes. They 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:20.400 claimed they never actually crossed into the airspace of Pakistan, 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.760 but they hit nine targets that they believe were areas 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:27.680 in Pakistan where many of these terrorist organizations were either 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:32.800 being protected or lived. Pakistan claims it shot down some 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:37.960 Indian jets. Look, I think it's possible we are close 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:42.800 to a crisis averted here, because India's sort of made 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.520 it clear that they did not want to escalate, that 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:48.919 their response was targeted and was designed to only go 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:53.479 after the terrorists themselves. The Pakistani response was, hey, we 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:59.440 shot down some Indian fighter jets, which is something that 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.920 is certainly not certainly pretty embarrassing for India. India has 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:07.400 a very much a conventional military advantage over Pakistan, but 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:09.760 the fact that Pakistan also has nukes that is what's 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:14.160 kept this sort of uneasy balance between the two countries. 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.720 And so I think it looks like they're both going 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.760 to take their off ramps. Obviously, if India escalates anymore 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.360 than Pakistan is probably going to feel the need to respond, 0:07:24.800 --> 0:07:27.160 but they really don't have the resources to deal with 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:31.400 India in a conventional military front, and there's no doubt 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.640 that they can't escalate. But this is a reminder of 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.800 what happens. I don't think it's an accident that when 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:43.360 the US is in retreat that suddenly we see situations 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:46.480 like this. So we're in the middle of a philosophical 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.800 shift here in Washington, and the Trump administration's made it 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.240 clear both through words and action that its foreign policy 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:56.360 is going to prioritize disengagement, less NATO, less Ukraine, less 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:59.440 commitment to traditional alliances. This says to two both economic 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.680 right we're seeing this with the retreat on trade, but 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:07.760 also just more skepticism in general of multi lateral agreements, 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:12.200 even when they come with security. So here's the problem 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:16.800 with this approach and why it may have helped escalate 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.520 the situation in India and Pakistan, is that when America 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.680 sort of retreats like this, it sends a signal. And 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.480 the signal is this that we're no longer going to 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.120 play the world's beat cup, We're no longer going to 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.640 be the world's first responder when there's a crisis, that 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:35.440 we're not even sure we want to be leader of 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:39.319 the free world anymore. I think the President wants to 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:42.200 be the strongest country in the world, but he doesn't 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.520 want to take that strength and accept the responsibility. That 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.000 means that we're sort of the you know, we're the 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.280 first ones to respond to a crisis, whether it's a 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:55.320 natural disaster, a famine, a civil war, an outbreak between 0:08:55.360 --> 0:09:03.120 two countries. Look, I get it's actuallyally pretty popular to say, 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.160 you know, these aren't our fights. America can't be the 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:11.240 world's cop. But here's always my response to that. If 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.760 America doesn't play the role of the world's cop, who's 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.719 going to And here would be my reminder the way 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.800 I would answer that question, It doesn't matter who does it, 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.520 We're not going to like it if it's anybody else 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.359 other than us, Okay, other than us. We trust ourselves, 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:33.040 our values. If we're not there to fill in the gap, 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.720 you know who will be China, perhaps in some parts 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.440 of the world of Russia. Just look at the entire 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.440 continent of Africa. Both Russia and China are making so 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:46.719 many in roads, military to military inroads that Russia's been 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.040 making in various places, and they're not interested in helping 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.520 the African people. They're interested in helping themselves. China has 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.200 engaged in a different way. They engage financially. They have 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.120 actually been a big part of of economic expansion in Africa. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.640 The United States has been way behind. And if anything, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:10.040 with the essentially the shuddering of aid, we've actually disengaged 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:13.320 even more from Africa, which is throwing many countries into 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.400 the arms of China or any other entity that is 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:22.640 willing to invest. So look, it looks like cooler heads 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.520 are going to prevail in Indian Pakistan. But it was 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:27.880 a bit disconcerting. And I know we're doing some stuff 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:32.280 behind the scenes, but we weren't at the forefront of this. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.120 We weren't quickly trying to de escalate in a hurry. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:39.400 We weren't quickly trying to frankly, figure out if the 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.760 Indians were right about who was behind this terrorist attack. 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.160 We weren't trying to figure out how much the Pakistani 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:52.520 government was involved. That's a more engaged United States perhaps 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:57.880 could have broken an uncomfortable piece before. Maybe this doesn't happen. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.920 The point is my concern now is that what we're 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.760 going to see is not less of this, but more 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:09.120 of this, where countries are going countries and frankly, terrorist 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.640 organizations are going to sort of test, Oh, there's no 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:16.200 more American beat cop on here, Let's see what happens. Right, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:20.760 It's almost like testing the fence. And if you're in India, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:22.920 you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have to 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:27.320 respond on our own. There isn't going to be a 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:29.880 global partner like the United States. And you know, think 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:32.480 about the neighborhood India's in, right, They've got China to 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:34.880 the north, they got Pakistan to the west. They certainly 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.479 don't trust the Pakistanis and they don't trust the Chinese. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.520 In many ways. They have by necessity decided to come 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:44.600 closer to the United States. You know, during the Cold War, 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.959 India was sort of in the was on the Soviet 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.640 side of things, and Pakistan by necessity was on the 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:56.400 American side of things. Ever since, and it really started 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.920 with George W. Bush after nine to eleven, and then 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.640 more so with Barack Obama, and that was actually continued 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.959 by Donald Trump. There's been a through line here of 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.880 getting closer to India. Economically, India is likely to be 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.880 the biggest beneficiary in the trade war with China, so 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.959 we certainly have a lot of interest in a stable 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:23.000 and secure Southeast Asia. Now the question is whether we're 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:29.679 willing to use our sort of our larger sort of 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:33.319 global capital to do that, and I think the fact 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:37.560 that it looks like we won't. It's just the likelihood 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.400 of more of these small regional conflicts breaking out into 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:45.160 hot wars, and of course one between two nuclear powers 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:50.760 is always of a huge concern. But I'll be honest, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:57.599 this is something that I think American disengagement indirectly is 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:03.920 encouraging the possible of more of this. This is why 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:09.120 so many of us are pro international engagement, because if 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.960 you look at the last eighty years since World War Two, 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:17.800 an American led free world has been safer and more 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.960 secure for the entire planet than in any of the 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.439 years previous to World War Two. Or frankly, already as 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.040 we see as we begin this disengagement, how violent things 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:35.280 are already getting on multiple continents. So, like I said, 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.520 hopefully things continue to de escalate. One other little note 0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.160 that I want to make before we get to the 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:45.199 interview with John Kaiseik. Joe Biden is back. He did 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.000 a sit down with the BBC. In some ways he 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:54.240 didn't really share anything new in the conversation, he expressed 0:13:54.240 --> 0:14:01.880 his speaking of international alliances. He called it he called 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.880 Donald Trump's decision to pressure Ukraine into accepting sort of 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.880 Russia seating territory to Russia. He called that modern day appeasement. 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.959 And he drew plenty of parallels to the failed policies 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.720 of the nineteen thirties. And he also believed that these 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.880 concessions are only going to embolden Vladimir Putin further. And 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:25.720 of course, the greatest test of the NATO alliance that 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:27.800 we all fear is what happens when he decides to 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.880 go into Latvia, or Lithuania or Estonia all three or 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:34.880 NATO countries all three on the border of Russia. I'm 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.200 old enough to remember when at Tucker Carlson flippantly said, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.360 what Americans are going to be willing to go to 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:46.160 war on behalf of Estonia? Well, that's what Article five 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.760 in NATO seems to say. And there is no doubt 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.440 in my mind that Putin is going to want to 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:55.800 test this premise. If he can get Europe to believe 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.240 that the United States won't be there for a NATO 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.960 member country, read, it would destroy NATO and probably allow 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.280 him to just march on through eastern Europe if we're 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:12.000 not careful on that front. More of Biden, he seemed 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:16.640 to He was asked about the withdrawal, should he have 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.520 gotten out sooner? Does he regret getting out at all? 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.560 And he just simply said it was a difficult decision. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:28.359 He didn't He believes an earlier exit wouldn't have benefited, 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:34.400 wouldn't have changed the outcome. It's an interesting, interesting take. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:36.080 Now we know he's going to be sitting down with 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.640 the folks at the view. He's looking for some friendly territory. 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:40.680 He knows some books are about to come out that 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:45.840 are really going to expose what I would call was 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:51.880 sort of well but nine neglect of the situation with 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:55.240 Joe Biden. You know, I continue in my own reporting, 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.480 None of these folks thought Joe Biden was the best 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.920 candidate Democrats could put up president, but they would, but 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:07.880 many of them looked at Joe Biden's age and thought, well, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.240 against a younger candidate, this would be a problem. But 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.800 against the crazy of Donald Trump, it's somewhat neutralized. And 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.240 so it was certainly a comparative analysis that I think 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:20.360 many of these folks made, and I think none of 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.000 the other part was you had a whole bunch of 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.720 skepticism about whether Kamala Harris could be a good candidate, 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:27.600 and he had a whole bunch of skepticism that if 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.440 you didn't believe she could be a good candidate, did 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.120 you have a plan on defeating her in a primary 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:37.119 without creating a massive intra party fight inside the Democratic 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.160 Party that could actually set the party back even further. 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.840 And so it is, Look, it's one of those situations 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.040 we're never going to know the answer to. You know, 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:53.040 my take, I think, ultimately, I go back, this was 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:56.880 a defeat that was ten years in the making. When 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.120 Barack Obama put his arm around Hillary Clinton to be 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:03.560 the nominee in twenty sixteen, he essentially cleaned you know, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.840 essentially benched the entire an entire generation of potential Democratic leaders, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.080 the Gen X generation of Democratic leaders, including people like 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.400 Kamala Harrison and Klobe Sharcorey Booker, Michael Bennett. I could 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.879 go on and on essentially everybody that eventually ran for 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.639 president in twenty twenty, but many of whom would have 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:24.840 run in twenty sixteen had Obama not done that. And 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.600 so when you go back, sort of the you know, 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.399 that's the fork. That's a fork. To me, that was 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.199 the real fork in the road moment right where we 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:36.439 never would have had Clinton nor Biden. But when you know, 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.280 and I think this goes back to something that I've 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:44.000 all often wondered if now Barack Obama understands this. But 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:46.719 you know, he won in two thousand and eight because 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.600 Democrats didn't want more of the same. They didn't want 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.440 the establishment wing of the party in charge, i e. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.400 The Clintons. They wanted something new and that was Barack Obama. 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.360 And for the most part they were satisfied. This wing 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.760 of the party was very satisfied. And I would argue 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.480 that you saw a Democratic party start to grow in 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.879 a different way. You started had different kind of leaders, 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.119 and they were sort of following the north star of 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.040 Barack Obama. And then twenty sixteen comes along and he 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:18.760 essentially doesn't listen to those Democratic primary voters who already 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:22.480 rejected her once and he went with her, and it 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.280 sort of put and I think whether it's a slice 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.520 of independent voters, whether it's those Sanders voters like Joe 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.040 Rogan who liked Sanders, probably liked Obama and also like 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:34.280 Trump right, We're looking for people that were willing to 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.119 break the elites, break the establishment. Obama was trying to 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.840 break the establishment in a kinder, gentler way. Donald Trump 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.520 came with a sledgehammer for the establishment. Hillary Clinton is 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.600 the establishment was the something. Joe Biden is the establishment 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:52.320 was the establishment, and so you know, I'm not sure 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.480 any sort of tinkering around the edges come twenty twenty 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:59.080 four was going to change any of that. That ultimately, 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:02.520 neither By nor Clinton should have been at the top 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.640 of any ticket twenty sixteen, twenty twenty or twenty twenty four, 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.840 that it really should have been the next generation all ready. 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.720 But Joe Biden's not going to be making that argument. 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.879 Joe Biden's got to defend his presidency and he's going 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.080 to probably continue to defend his presidency. It is intriguing 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.040 to me that he chose to go to the BBC first, 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:28.880 because I think and my own reporting confirms this. Once 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:34.960 Russia invaded Ukraine, basically the one issue that Joe Biden 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.440 was focused on more than any other was NATO and 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:44.320 was containing Russia. Everything else was secondary for him in 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.000 this presidency, whether it's his domestic agenda, whether it was 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.600 the border that every day, what he was really working on, 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:53.320 what really animated him in the morning, what really kept 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:56.639 him up at night, was the situation between Russia and Ukraine. 0:19:56.680 --> 0:20:01.000 And I think he believes his job was to save NATO, 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.119 expand NATO, which he did, and I think he believes 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.080 it's the best part of his legacy. Well, I tend 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.640 to agree unless unless Donald Trump destroys NATO, and then 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.720 ultimately he's going to share in that responsibility, right because 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:19.119 his failed political leadership, you know, is I've put it. 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.359 I put it this way, if Joe Biden had been 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.800 a better leader, I don't know if the American voters 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:28.520 were to turn back to Donald Trump. And maybe that's 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.280 an unfair way of putting it, but ultimately, you know, 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:33.800 he made the case that America had to move on 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.439 from Donald Trump, and America decided to turn back to 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:39.760 Donald Trump because they didn't like the governance of Joe Biden. 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:45.399 That's ultimately on him, and we're never going to know 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.640 about the various alternatives. But again, I go back, I'm 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.399 not sure nitpicking when Joe Biden gets out of the 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.320 race really matters. At the end of the day. I 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.320 think what mattered is the fact that Joe Biden was 0:20:56.359 --> 0:21:00.200 still in the thick of all of this is probably 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:07.080 the bigger situation there all right. I think I've I've 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.960 done enough here, done enough damage with this open on 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:16.920 what happens. American disengagement indirectly leads to uncomfortable and potentially 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:21.840 hostile situations that could end up fantastasizing and making things 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.000 a heck of a lot worse. That's how I'm watching 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.360 the current Indian Pakistan situation. And I am sure we're 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.200 gonna be hearing more from Joe Biden as he does 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.560 his little defend his legacy tour over the next week 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.840 or two. And I'll be curious if he has new 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.879 arguments or better arguments as his tour continues. So let 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:42.520 me sneak in a quick break and when we come back, 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:45.040 John Cason. 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:52.600 Well joining me. 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:54.600 Now, if you've been listening to my podcast over a 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.760 few years, you know with somebody who I always enjoyed 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:01.240 having a conversation with, and we are in the mutual 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:04.760 admiration each other's mutual admiration societies. It's the former governor 0:22:04.800 --> 0:22:10.520 of Ohio, former congressman, former presidential candidate, and forever friend 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:12.280 here John Kasik, John, good to see you. 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:14.600 Thank you, Chuck. It's going to be with you again. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.000 Look, you're ostensibly on here because you've written a new 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.000 book and it's very and for me, I think what's interesting, 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.479 and I think you it's kind of a bookend in 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:30.800 some ways because you've I remember your first the first 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:32.560 book I remember that you wrote. I know you. It 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.000 may not be. The first book you wrote was Doing 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:40.159 the Probe is sort of the ordinary people doing extraordinary 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.520 thing right, And that was generally in the in this 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:46.959 sense you're focused on faith communities. Am I shorthanding it right? Now? 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:50.280 You're doing it right? I mean it was the first 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.399 one is called Courage is Contagious, and it was about 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:56.080 individuals doing remarkable things. And then I kind of concluded 0:22:56.080 --> 0:22:59.000 that if individuals had some fellow travelers with them, they 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.119 could do a hect of law more and the faith 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:05.000 institutions were a great way to be able to accomplish 0:23:05.000 --> 0:23:05.800 more things. 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:09.679 And look, I always say, people, are you know when 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.919 you're writing a book like this? To me, it's reflecting 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.040 how you want politics to work, right, And it that 0:23:16.320 --> 0:23:18.520 sens is to me, this is always how you wanted 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:20.159 to work. Why do you think it We've had a 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:24.240 struggle at getting everybody to sort of view politics. You know, 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:29.560 I always joke that, hey, civilization invented politics in order 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:33.159 to resolve disputes without violence. Right, That's why at some 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:37.000 point we humans decided we can't keep fighting to decide 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:38.800 who lives here and who lives there and where we 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:42.919 draw our border. Maybe we should negotiate, And suddenly politics 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:45.320 was born. Why do you think we don't know how 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:46.720 to do this as well as we used to. 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.119 Wow, you know me, given an answer like that is 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.840 so silly, because you could write your couple volumes about. 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:57.080 It, of course, but you've been a practitioner. I'm the observer, 0:23:57.320 --> 0:23:58.199 you're the practitioner. 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.360 I think that you know, it's so interesting because, as 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.119 you know, political parties have lost their influence, right, I 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:07.440 mean this is going to sound counterintuitive. Parties no longer 0:24:07.520 --> 0:24:10.800 screen candidates, they no longer fund them. They're all funded 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:14.240 by special interest groups. So these people go to Washington 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.600 elected by you know, this group and that group and 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:19.679