1
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,040
Speaker 1: Hello, They're happy Thursday. Welcome to another episode of the

2
00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,440
Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast. So my guest later in this podcast, yesterday

3
00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: we uploaded. I say yesterday. I know, in the world

4
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:19,239
Speaker 1: of podcasting, perhaps you just you're listening to this the

5
00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,279
Speaker 1: day of my previous episode. How do I how about

6
00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:24,560
Speaker 1: we say that my previous episode, I had a former

7
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,360
Speaker 1: Democratic governor of Washington, Stayed Jay ins Leon, who himself

8
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: ran for president in twenty twenty. Well, for this episode,

9
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: I have a former Republican governor of the Great State

10
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,360
Speaker 1: of Ohio who ran for president in twenty sixteen. It's

11
00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,360
Speaker 1: John Kasik. He's got a new book about how faith

12
00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:46,600
Speaker 1: communities can essentially do good in America in different ways.

13
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: And frankly, I think Kasik is somebody who is desperate to,

14
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:57,280
Speaker 1: I think, revive a sense of local community again. He's

15
00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,600
Speaker 1: always kind of been that kind of politician, you know,

16
00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 1: he's you know, he made a name for himself at

17
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 1: first in Washington for being the budget guy, so it

18
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: was always cut cut cut. But you know, when I

19
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:14,919
Speaker 1: think of the phrase compassionate conservative, which was made famous

20
00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 1: by George W. Bush, to me, the avatar to that

21
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:19,760
Speaker 1: is John Kasick, and before him, would have been a

22
00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,480
Speaker 1: guy named Jack Kemp. In the eighties, Jack Kemp was

23
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,520
Speaker 1: considered a conservative with a heart and the point being. Look,

24
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,480
Speaker 1: he was an advocate for smaller government, an advocate frankly

25
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 1: for more international engagement, an advocate for business, but also

26
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,840
Speaker 1: an advocate for lifting people up. And being a former athlete,

27
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 1: he sort of was able to cut through the race issue.

28
00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:44,640
Speaker 2: You know.

29
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 1: He's one of those folks that I've always wanted to

30
00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: write a book featuring the I can't believe they never

31
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: became president. Jack Kemp and Bill Bradley are my sort

32
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,360
Speaker 1: of one A and one B, and I think it's

33
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: Jack Camp, Bill Bradley, and John Glenn. You know, I

34
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,560
Speaker 1: look at those four guys and you might throw Bob

35
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,480
Speaker 1: Dole in there. You know, they they all ran. Don't

36
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: get me wrong, they all wanted to become president. They

37
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,520
Speaker 1: all just ran in the wrong year in various ways

38
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,760
Speaker 1: or in you know, they got on national tickets in

39
00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 1: the wrong time, and you know, but for a different

40
00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: political circumstance, they would have become president. Certainly had the

41
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 1: resume or the unique American background astronaut, athlete, you know,

42
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 1: et cetera. I think case it is one of these

43
00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,840
Speaker 1: people that this sort of has a little bit of

44
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 1: of of all of that sort of Oh what would

45
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 1: my friends in France call it genes sequa, meaning meaning

46
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,679
Speaker 1: it's just this and he he just he feeds off

47
00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 1: of community. And I mean that as a compliment on

48
00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 1: that front. So I think you're going to enjoy this

49
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,560
Speaker 1: conversation that we have really about figuring out how we

50
00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: restore civics and a America in a way that's a

51
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,360
Speaker 1: little less partisan and a little more productive. So I

52
00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy that conversation with him. And he's got

53
00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,160
Speaker 1: plenty to say about the current situation in politics. But

54
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,760
Speaker 1: I do think you'll enjoy this conversation. But before we

55
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 1: get to it, I want to pop in on a

56
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 1: couple of other issues. And to me, there's one giant

57
00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 1: issue that is getting a little bit of attention but

58
00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,200
Speaker 1: probably deserves a lot more, and it's the current security

59
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,000
Speaker 1: crisis in the Southeast Asia between India and Pakistan. And

60
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 1: it to me is this current situation is a troubling

61
00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,080
Speaker 1: reminder of what happens when American leadership retreats from the world.

62
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:43,520
Speaker 1: Now I'm not going to sit here and say America

63
00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,080
Speaker 1: is the cause of the situation. It is not okay.

64
00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: This is a long standing regional rivalry between India and Pakistan.

65
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 1: It goes back. You know, we talk about a current

66
00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,440
Speaker 1: partition having to do with Israel and the Palestinians. You know,

67
00:03:55,480 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 1: there's another partition that has also been the cause of

68
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 1: strife around in that region, and it's in India and Pakistan.

69
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 1: It was obviously the most just a quick refresher here,

70
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,600
Speaker 1: not sure how much you're following the story, but in

71
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 1: late April, April twenty second, it was a terrorist attack

72
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,560
Speaker 1: in the Indian administered part of Kashmir. Twenty six civilians,

73
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:23,080
Speaker 1: mostly Hindu tourists, so there's a religious element here. The

74
00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:30,280
Speaker 1: Hindus and the Muslims were killed. A Pakistani based terrorist

75
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 1: organization called the Resistance Front claim responsibility, and India decided

76
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 1: to point the finger at Pakistan, the country saying they

77
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: were housing, essentially protecting these terrorist organizations. It's frankly a

78
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 1: similar thing that the US government had accused Pakistan up

79
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,520
Speaker 1: back during the al Qaeda days. And of course where

80
00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,440
Speaker 1: did we find bin Laden in Pakistan? So this is

81
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,640
Speaker 1: certainly not an unusual unusual situation and sort of how

82
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: things are managed in Pakistan. Pakistan's govern it has been

83
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: a mess from a while. You have a very you

84
00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,240
Speaker 1: have an sort of an independent intelligence agency that sometimes

85
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,239
Speaker 1: feels like it operates on its own. The military literally

86
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,680
Speaker 1: a military industrial complex and in many ways is the

87
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,400
Speaker 1: stabilizer of the country. Civilian leadership that is either in

88
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,560
Speaker 1: the pocket of the military or finds themselves in the

89
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: crosshairs of the military. But it is not a stable

90
00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 1: There's an uneven check and balance that goes on there.

91
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,840
Speaker 1: So it is it is. It has always been a

92
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 1: source of concern because both India and Pakistan have nukes,

93
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,160
Speaker 1: but because of the unsteadiness of the governance of Pakistan,

94
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 1: and frankly, there's plenty of evidence that the that that

95
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 1: the notch of the nuclear intelligence that Iran in North

96
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,599
Speaker 1: Korea has acquired has come through essentially leaks out of

97
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,800
Speaker 1: Pakistan and a Pakistani scientist and things like this. So

98
00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,760
Speaker 1: it's always been an area of concern for a variety

99
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 1: of reasons, but loose nukes being the biggest one. But

100
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,520
Speaker 1: obviously there is a when you're when you have your

101
00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 1: own citizens attack and killed, most countries are going to

102
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,120
Speaker 1: feel the need to respond. So on May sixth. India responded.

103
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,960
Speaker 1: It called it Operation Sindoor. They made air strikes. They

104
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,400
Speaker 1: claimed they never actually crossed into the airspace of Pakistan,

105
00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 1: but they hit nine targets that they believe were areas

106
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 1: in Pakistan where many of these terrorist organizations were either

107
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 1: being protected or lived. Pakistan claims it shot down some

108
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 1: Indian jets. Look, I think it's possible we are close

109
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 1: to a crisis averted here, because India's sort of made

110
00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 1: it clear that they did not want to escalate, that

111
00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,919
Speaker 1: their response was targeted and was designed to only go

112
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,479
Speaker 1: after the terrorists themselves. The Pakistani response was, hey, we

113
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 1: shot down some Indian fighter jets, which is something that

114
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,920
Speaker 1: is certainly not certainly pretty embarrassing for India. India has

115
00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,400
Speaker 1: a very much a conventional military advantage over Pakistan, but

116
00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 1: the fact that Pakistan also has nukes that is what's

117
00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,160
Speaker 1: kept this sort of uneasy balance between the two countries.

118
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,720
Speaker 1: And so I think it looks like they're both going

119
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,760
Speaker 1: to take their off ramps. Obviously, if India escalates anymore

120
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,360
Speaker 1: than Pakistan is probably going to feel the need to respond,

121
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,160
Speaker 1: but they really don't have the resources to deal with

122
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,400
Speaker 1: India in a conventional military front, and there's no doubt

123
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 1: that they can't escalate. But this is a reminder of

124
00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:39,800
Speaker 1: what happens. I don't think it's an accident that when

125
00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 1: the US is in retreat that suddenly we see situations

126
00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 1: like this. So we're in the middle of a philosophical

127
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,800
Speaker 1: shift here in Washington, and the Trump administration's made it

128
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,240
Speaker 1: clear both through words and action that its foreign policy

129
00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 1: is going to prioritize disengagement, less NATO, less Ukraine, less

130
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 1: commitment to traditional alliances. This says to two both economic

131
00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 1: right we're seeing this with the retreat on trade, but

132
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,760
Speaker 1: also just more skepticism in general of multi lateral agreements,

133
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,200
Speaker 1: even when they come with security. So here's the problem

134
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,800
Speaker 1: with this approach and why it may have helped escalate

135
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: the situation in India and Pakistan, is that when America

136
00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,680
Speaker 1: sort of retreats like this, it sends a signal. And

137
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 1: the signal is this that we're no longer going to

138
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,120
Speaker 1: play the world's beat cup, We're no longer going to

139
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 1: be the world's first responder when there's a crisis, that

140
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,440
Speaker 1: we're not even sure we want to be leader of

141
00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,319
Speaker 1: the free world anymore. I think the President wants to

142
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,200
Speaker 1: be the strongest country in the world, but he doesn't

143
00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,520
Speaker 1: want to take that strength and accept the responsibility. That

144
00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,000
Speaker 1: means that we're sort of the you know, we're the

145
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 1: first ones to respond to a crisis, whether it's a

146
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:55,320
Speaker 1: natural disaster, a famine, a civil war, an outbreak between

147
00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:03,120
Speaker 1: two countries. Look, I get it's actuallyally pretty popular to say,

148
00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 1: you know, these aren't our fights. America can't be the

149
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,240
Speaker 1: world's cop. But here's always my response to that. If

150
00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,760
Speaker 1: America doesn't play the role of the world's cop, who's

151
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,719
Speaker 1: going to And here would be my reminder the way

152
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: I would answer that question, It doesn't matter who does it,

153
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 1: We're not going to like it if it's anybody else

154
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,359
Speaker 1: other than us, Okay, other than us. We trust ourselves,

155
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,040
Speaker 1: our values. If we're not there to fill in the gap,

156
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,720
Speaker 1: you know who will be China, perhaps in some parts

157
00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: of the world of Russia. Just look at the entire

158
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 1: continent of Africa. Both Russia and China are making so

159
00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:46,719
Speaker 1: many in roads, military to military inroads that Russia's been

160
00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: making in various places, and they're not interested in helping

161
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 1: the African people. They're interested in helping themselves. China has

162
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: engaged in a different way. They engage financially. They have

163
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:02,120
Speaker 1: actually been a big part of of economic expansion in Africa.

164
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:04,640
Speaker 1: The United States has been way behind. And if anything,

165
00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 1: with the essentially the shuddering of aid, we've actually disengaged

166
00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,320
Speaker 1: even more from Africa, which is throwing many countries into

167
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,400
Speaker 1: the arms of China or any other entity that is

168
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,640
Speaker 1: willing to invest. So look, it looks like cooler heads

169
00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,520
Speaker 1: are going to prevail in Indian Pakistan. But it was

170
00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: a bit disconcerting. And I know we're doing some stuff

171
00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,280
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, but we weren't at the forefront of this.

172
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,120
Speaker 1: We weren't quickly trying to de escalate in a hurry.

173
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,400
Speaker 1: We weren't quickly trying to frankly, figure out if the

174
00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,760
Speaker 1: Indians were right about who was behind this terrorist attack.

175
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 1: We weren't trying to figure out how much the Pakistani

176
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 1: government was involved. That's a more engaged United States perhaps

177
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 1: could have broken an uncomfortable piece before. Maybe this doesn't happen.

178
00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,920
Speaker 1: The point is my concern now is that what we're

179
00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,760
Speaker 1: going to see is not less of this, but more

180
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 1: of this, where countries are going countries and frankly, terrorist

181
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 1: organizations are going to sort of test, Oh, there's no

182
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,200
Speaker 1: more American beat cop on here, Let's see what happens. Right,

183
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 1: It's almost like testing the fence. And if you're in India,

184
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: you're sitting there going, oh, we're going to have to

185
00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,320
Speaker 1: respond on our own. There isn't going to be a

186
00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,880
Speaker 1: global partner like the United States. And you know, think

187
00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,480
Speaker 1: about the neighborhood India's in, right, They've got China to

188
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:34,880
Speaker 1: the north, they got Pakistan to the west. They certainly

189
00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,479
Speaker 1: don't trust the Pakistanis and they don't trust the Chinese.

190
00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 1: In many ways. They have by necessity decided to come

191
00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 1: closer to the United States. You know, during the Cold War,

192
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,959
Speaker 1: India was sort of in the was on the Soviet

193
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,640
Speaker 1: side of things, and Pakistan by necessity was on the

194
00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:56,400
Speaker 1: American side of things. Ever since, and it really started

195
00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,920
Speaker 1: with George W. Bush after nine to eleven, and then

196
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: more so with Barack Obama, and that was actually continued

197
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,959
Speaker 1: by Donald Trump. There's been a through line here of

198
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,880
Speaker 1: getting closer to India. Economically, India is likely to be

199
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 1: the biggest beneficiary in the trade war with China, so

200
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,959
Speaker 1: we certainly have a lot of interest in a stable

201
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 1: and secure Southeast Asia. Now the question is whether we're

202
00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:29,679
Speaker 1: willing to use our sort of our larger sort of

203
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 1: global capital to do that, and I think the fact

204
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 1: that it looks like we won't. It's just the likelihood

205
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 1: of more of these small regional conflicts breaking out into

206
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 1: hot wars, and of course one between two nuclear powers

207
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:50,760
Speaker 1: is always of a huge concern. But I'll be honest,

208
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:57,599
Speaker 1: this is something that I think American disengagement indirectly is

209
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,920
Speaker 1: encouraging the possible of more of this. This is why

210
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 1: so many of us are pro international engagement, because if

211
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,960
Speaker 1: you look at the last eighty years since World War Two,

212
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,800
Speaker 1: an American led free world has been safer and more

213
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,960
Speaker 1: secure for the entire planet than in any of the

214
00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,439
Speaker 1: years previous to World War Two. Or frankly, already as

215
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,040
Speaker 1: we see as we begin this disengagement, how violent things

216
00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:35,280
Speaker 1: are already getting on multiple continents. So, like I said,

217
00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: hopefully things continue to de escalate. One other little note

218
00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: that I want to make before we get to the

219
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,199
Speaker 1: interview with John Kaiseik. Joe Biden is back. He did

220
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 1: a sit down with the BBC. In some ways he

221
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:54,240
Speaker 1: didn't really share anything new in the conversation, he expressed

222
00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 1: his speaking of international alliances. He called it he called

223
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,880
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's decision to pressure Ukraine into accepting sort of

224
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,880
Speaker 1: Russia seating territory to Russia. He called that modern day appeasement.

225
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,959
Speaker 1: And he drew plenty of parallels to the failed policies

226
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,720
Speaker 1: of the nineteen thirties. And he also believed that these

227
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,880
Speaker 1: concessions are only going to embolden Vladimir Putin further. And

228
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,720
Speaker 1: of course, the greatest test of the NATO alliance that

229
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 1: we all fear is what happens when he decides to

230
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,880
Speaker 1: go into Latvia, or Lithuania or Estonia all three or

231
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,880
Speaker 1: NATO countries all three on the border of Russia. I'm

232
00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,200
Speaker 1: old enough to remember when at Tucker Carlson flippantly said,

233
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:40,360
Speaker 1: what Americans are going to be willing to go to

234
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 1: war on behalf of Estonia? Well, that's what Article five

235
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,760
Speaker 1: in NATO seems to say. And there is no doubt

236
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,440
Speaker 1: in my mind that Putin is going to want to

237
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,800
Speaker 1: test this premise. If he can get Europe to believe

238
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,240
Speaker 1: that the United States won't be there for a NATO

239
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: member country, read, it would destroy NATO and probably allow

240
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,280
Speaker 1: him to just march on through eastern Europe if we're

241
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: not careful on that front. More of Biden, he seemed

242
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:16,640
Speaker 1: to He was asked about the withdrawal, should he have

243
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,520
Speaker 1: gotten out sooner? Does he regret getting out at all?

244
00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,560
Speaker 1: And he just simply said it was a difficult decision.

245
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,359
Speaker 1: He didn't He believes an earlier exit wouldn't have benefited,

246
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:34,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have changed the outcome. It's an interesting, interesting take.

247
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 1: Now we know he's going to be sitting down with

248
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 1: the folks at the view. He's looking for some friendly territory.

249
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,680
Speaker 1: He knows some books are about to come out that

250
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,840
Speaker 1: are really going to expose what I would call was

251
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 1: sort of well but nine neglect of the situation with

252
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 1: Joe Biden. You know, I continue in my own reporting,

253
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,480
Speaker 1: None of these folks thought Joe Biden was the best

254
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,920
Speaker 1: candidate Democrats could put up president, but they would, but

255
00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: many of them looked at Joe Biden's age and thought, well,

256
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: against a younger candidate, this would be a problem. But

257
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: against the crazy of Donald Trump, it's somewhat neutralized. And

258
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 1: so it was certainly a comparative analysis that I think

259
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: many of these folks made, and I think none of

260
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 1: the other part was you had a whole bunch of

261
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: skepticism about whether Kamala Harris could be a good candidate,

262
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: and he had a whole bunch of skepticism that if

263
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,440
Speaker 1: you didn't believe she could be a good candidate, did

264
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 1: you have a plan on defeating her in a primary

265
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:37,119
Speaker 1: without creating a massive intra party fight inside the Democratic

266
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,160
Speaker 1: Party that could actually set the party back even further.

267
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,840
Speaker 1: And so it is, Look, it's one of those situations

268
00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 1: we're never going to know the answer to. You know,

269
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:53,040
Speaker 1: my take, I think, ultimately, I go back, this was

270
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,880
Speaker 1: a defeat that was ten years in the making. When

271
00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 1: Barack Obama put his arm around Hillary Clinton to be

272
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 1: the nominee in twenty sixteen, he essentially cleaned you know,

273
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,840
Speaker 1: essentially benched the entire an entire generation of potential Democratic leaders,

274
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 1: the Gen X generation of Democratic leaders, including people like

275
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,400
Speaker 1: Kamala Harrison and Klobe Sharcorey Booker, Michael Bennett. I could

276
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,879
Speaker 1: go on and on essentially everybody that eventually ran for

277
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 1: president in twenty twenty, but many of whom would have

278
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,840
Speaker 1: run in twenty sixteen had Obama not done that. And

279
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,600
Speaker 1: so when you go back, sort of the you know,

280
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 1: that's the fork. That's a fork. To me, that was

281
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,199
Speaker 1: the real fork in the road moment right where we

282
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,439
Speaker 1: never would have had Clinton nor Biden. But when you know,

283
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,280
Speaker 1: and I think this goes back to something that I've

284
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 1: all often wondered if now Barack Obama understands this. But

285
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,719
Speaker 1: you know, he won in two thousand and eight because

286
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,600
Speaker 1: Democrats didn't want more of the same. They didn't want

287
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 1: the establishment wing of the party in charge, i e.

288
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 1: The Clintons. They wanted something new and that was Barack Obama.

289
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,360
Speaker 1: And for the most part they were satisfied. This wing

290
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 1: of the party was very satisfied. And I would argue

291
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 1: that you saw a Democratic party start to grow in

292
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,879
Speaker 1: a different way. You started had different kind of leaders,

293
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,119
Speaker 1: and they were sort of following the north star of

294
00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,040
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. And then twenty sixteen comes along and he

295
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:18,760
Speaker 1: essentially doesn't listen to those Democratic primary voters who already

296
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 1: rejected her once and he went with her, and it

297
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,280
Speaker 1: sort of put and I think whether it's a slice

298
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: of independent voters, whether it's those Sanders voters like Joe

299
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 1: Rogan who liked Sanders, probably liked Obama and also like

300
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:34,280
Speaker 1: Trump right, We're looking for people that were willing to

301
00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 1: break the elites, break the establishment. Obama was trying to

302
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,840
Speaker 1: break the establishment in a kinder, gentler way. Donald Trump

303
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,520
Speaker 1: came with a sledgehammer for the establishment. Hillary Clinton is

304
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,600
Speaker 1: the establishment was the something. Joe Biden is the establishment

305
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,320
Speaker 1: was the establishment, and so you know, I'm not sure

306
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 1: any sort of tinkering around the edges come twenty twenty

307
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:59,080
Speaker 1: four was going to change any of that. That ultimately,

308
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: neither By nor Clinton should have been at the top

309
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,640
Speaker 1: of any ticket twenty sixteen, twenty twenty or twenty twenty four,

310
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 1: that it really should have been the next generation all ready.

311
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 1: But Joe Biden's not going to be making that argument.

312
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's got to defend his presidency and he's going

313
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,080
Speaker 1: to probably continue to defend his presidency. It is intriguing

314
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: to me that he chose to go to the BBC first,

315
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 1: because I think and my own reporting confirms this. Once

316
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:34,960
Speaker 1: Russia invaded Ukraine, basically the one issue that Joe Biden

317
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 1: was focused on more than any other was NATO and

318
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: was containing Russia. Everything else was secondary for him in

319
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: this presidency, whether it's his domestic agenda, whether it was

320
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: the border that every day, what he was really working on,

321
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,320
Speaker 1: what really animated him in the morning, what really kept

322
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,639
Speaker 1: him up at night, was the situation between Russia and Ukraine.

323
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 1: And I think he believes his job was to save NATO,

324
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: expand NATO, which he did, and I think he believes

325
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,080
Speaker 1: it's the best part of his legacy. Well, I tend

326
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: to agree unless unless Donald Trump destroys NATO, and then

327
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,720
Speaker 1: ultimately he's going to share in that responsibility, right because

328
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 1: his failed political leadership, you know, is I've put it.

329
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 1: I put it this way, if Joe Biden had been

330
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 1: a better leader, I don't know if the American voters

331
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: were to turn back to Donald Trump. And maybe that's

332
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,280
Speaker 1: an unfair way of putting it, but ultimately, you know,

333
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: he made the case that America had to move on

334
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 1: from Donald Trump, and America decided to turn back to

335
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 1: Donald Trump because they didn't like the governance of Joe Biden.

336
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 1: That's ultimately on him, and we're never going to know

337
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 1: about the various alternatives. But again, I go back, I'm

338
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 1: not sure nitpicking when Joe Biden gets out of the

339
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: race really matters. At the end of the day. I

340
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 1: think what mattered is the fact that Joe Biden was

341
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: still in the thick of all of this is probably

342
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: the bigger situation there all right. I think I've I've

343
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 1: done enough here, done enough damage with this open on

344
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 1: what happens. American disengagement indirectly leads to uncomfortable and potentially

345
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: hostile situations that could end up fantastasizing and making things

346
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 1: a heck of a lot worse. That's how I'm watching

347
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,360
Speaker 1: the current Indian Pakistan situation. And I am sure we're

348
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: gonna be hearing more from Joe Biden as he does

349
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 1: his little defend his legacy tour over the next week

350
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 1: or two. And I'll be curious if he has new

351
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: arguments or better arguments as his tour continues. So let

352
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 1: me sneak in a quick break and when we come back,

353
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 1: John Cason.

354
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: Well joining me.

355
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: Now, if you've been listening to my podcast over a

356
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 1: few years, you know with somebody who I always enjoyed

357
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: having a conversation with, and we are in the mutual

358
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: admiration each other's mutual admiration societies. It's the former governor

359
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 1: of Ohio, former congressman, former presidential candidate, and forever friend

360
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: here John Kasik, John, good to see you.

361
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: Thank you, Chuck. It's going to be with you again.

362
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 1: Look, you're ostensibly on here because you've written a new

363
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: book and it's very and for me, I think what's interesting,

364
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,479
Speaker 1: and I think you it's kind of a bookend in

365
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: some ways because you've I remember your first the first

366
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: book I remember that you wrote. I know you. It

367
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: may not be. The first book you wrote was Doing

368
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: the Probe is sort of the ordinary people doing extraordinary

369
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 1: thing right, And that was generally in the in this

370
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,959
Speaker 1: sense you're focused on faith communities. Am I shorthanding it right? Now?

371
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 2: You're doing it right? I mean it was the first

372
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 2: one is called Courage is Contagious, and it was about

373
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: individuals doing remarkable things. And then I kind of concluded

374
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: that if individuals had some fellow travelers with them, they

375
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: could do a hect of law more and the faith

376
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 2: institutions were a great way to be able to accomplish

377
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 2: more things.

378
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: And look, I always say, people, are you know when

379
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,919
Speaker 1: you're writing a book like this? To me, it's reflecting

380
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,040
Speaker 1: how you want politics to work, right, And it that

381
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: sens is to me, this is always how you wanted

382
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: to work. Why do you think it We've had a

383
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: struggle at getting everybody to sort of view politics. You know,

384
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: I always joke that, hey, civilization invented politics in order

385
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: to resolve disputes without violence. Right, That's why at some

386
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: point we humans decided we can't keep fighting to decide

387
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 1: who lives here and who lives there and where we

388
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: draw our border. Maybe we should negotiate, And suddenly politics

389
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: was born. Why do you think we don't know how

390
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: to do this as well as we used to.

391
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: Wow, you know me, given an answer like that is

392
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 2: so silly, because you could write your couple volumes about.

393
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: It, of course, but you've been a practitioner. I'm the observer,

394
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 1: you're the practitioner.

395
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 2: I think that you know, it's so interesting because, as

396
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: you know, political parties have lost their influence, right, I

397
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: mean this is going to sound counterintuitive. Parties no longer

398
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 2: screen candidates, they no longer fund them. They're all funded

399
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: by special interest groups. So these people go to Washington

400
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: elected by you know, this group and that group and

401
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 2: the other group. And you would think that there'd be

402
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 2: less loyalty to sort of a Republican or a Democrat brand.

403
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: But yes, it seems as though that brand kind of

404
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: defines a person.

405
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: Oh it's my favorite conundrum. Yeah, we're we're we were

406
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: more tribal than ever, and yet the parties have less

407
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: influence than ever.

408
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: Exactly. I don't know if they have much of any influence,

409
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 2: to be honest with you, Chuck. And maybe that's something

410
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: I want to write about. Maybe you and I can

411
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 2: write something together about that, about how that's an interesting

412
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: thing because people don't realize that. You know, when I

413
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: was first starting out, I had to go, you know,

414
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 2: visit the screening Committee, the Central Committee, the committee, members

415
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: of this that, that, all that stuff.

416
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 1: But you had to prove your bona fides. Now I

417
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: wanted to be a good member of the party.

418
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I didn't really. I saw the play. Saw

419
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: the party as my vehicle, never my master, but it

420
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 2: was my vehicle for being able to do things in life. So,

421
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: to make a long story short, I think people now

422
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: they're afraid, first of all, to associate themselves with their quote,

423
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: their brand, or their group because they're afraid they will

424
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 2: be punished politically or they won't be liked. You know,

425
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: they got to go if they're going to go to

426
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,199
Speaker 2: a party. They got to be in the right place,

427
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: because if you're not in the right space, then you

428
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,240
Speaker 2: get shunned. And you know, some people care about that.

429
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: You know, it's not anything I've ever cared much about.

430
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: And then there's the threat of the primaries, of course,

431
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: and so if I go my own way and I

432
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 2: start remember, remember what was really crazy? You remember when

433
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 2: Chris Christy hugged Obama because Obama brought all that money

434
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: to New Jersey.

435
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: After that, it was just it was it was sort

436
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: of your typical broug. It was a handshake, Hug, I

437
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: might have done that with you. Hey, good to see

438
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 1: it's been a while, exactly exactly.

439
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: And yet nothing more than respect. Yeah, well it didn't

440
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: work out that well for him because people went crazy.

441
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: And now you see, well whatever Charlie christ first of all,

442
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,880
Speaker 2: Christie's not even the first governor named christ then went

443
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: through this Charlie Chris got kicked out of the Republican Party,

444
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: arguably for hug at Obama and oh nine, you know, Chuck,

445
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: I think what it gets down to is people would

446
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: rather have the We all would rather have an easy

447
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: road than a hard road, and it's just easier to

448
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: be part of that group. It's easier to win reelection

449
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 2: without a primary. It's just it's just easier. And I

450
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: just don't think easier is good in life, you know.

451
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 2: I mean, we'd all want easier, but we know that

452
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: difficult has made us better.

453
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: So I want to go, let's unpack the party thing

454
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: a minute.

455
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: You know.

456
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: I remember one of the arguments that a few politicians,

457
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: including Mitch McConnell, made against McCain Fine Gold in the

458
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: time that it happened, and I was I sort of

459
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: I actually thought it was a genuine critique of McCain

460
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: fine Gold and not just a partisan critique. And McConnell

461
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: worried that McCain fine Gold, while it had all its

462
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 1: attempt was to take big money out of the political parties.

463
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: He argued it was going to weaken the political parties.

464
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: And it turned out he was right, because you don't

465
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: get rid of money. Money just finds the way money

466
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 1: always moves. And every time government has tried to legislate

467
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 1: campaign money, it has never made it less. It has

468
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: just made it harder to track, right, easier to abuse,

469
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: and harder to track. And yet if I said we

470
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: should repeal McCain fine gold it would you know, it's

471
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: sound like, oh, you just want more money in politics,

472
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: but it's no.

473
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 2: I think they should because it was.

474
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 1: At least it was transparent. At least we saw where

475
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: it went and the parties had to keep track of

476
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: how it was used.

477
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 2: Now. I don't know how much it would change with

478
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 2: where the political parties are today because most of the

479
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 2: people running the political parties are kind of have this

480
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 2: mindset as well. But it gives you a greater chance,

481
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 2: I think, to bring about reforms. And this is everybody

482
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 2: talks about redistricting and all that. I think this is

483
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 2: a really significant thing because there's no screening process anymore.

484
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: There's not, and people would say, well, that's not open,

485
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: you know, the party bosses, you know, when you have

486
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: adults who are you know, trying to decide who's fit

487
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 2: to represent people and who's not. I think that's probably

488
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: necessary today. We certainly need to need to reflect on

489
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 2: it for sure.

490
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: No, that that's true. I want you to dig into

491
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: something that you said one other.

492
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: Thing, Chuck. I know this is the way it always

493
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: is with you and me. Keep interrupting, I keep interrupting you.

494
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: But but you know the book Heaven help us. Is

495
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 2: about courage, and it's about faith in something greater than ourselves.

496
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: And all you care about is what's in it for myself?

497
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 2: Then you fall short. But if all of a sudden

498
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 2: you show courage and you go your own way, you know,

499
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: it's fantastic. And life is so short and your ability

500
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: to make an impact is so short, that don't blow it.

501
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: And we're that faith in a higher power that looks

502
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 2: after us. That's a contributor to why people can have

503
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: more courage.

504
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: In my opinion, let me throw something at you. Will

505
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: you accept the premise that you know I would say,

506
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: where I show the greatest faith. I have a lot

507
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 1: of faith in the idea of democracy, and therefore I'm

508
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: weird it is it is what I would die to

509
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: fight for. And I've wondered that, like, would you what

510
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: do you? What are you willing to do? You accept

511
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: the idea that the idea of democracy is a form

512
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: of belief and faith?

513
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, one sort, but not the kind of faith I'm

514
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 2: talking about.

515
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: I know you're talking about a different faith, and you

516
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: know I'm I go.

517
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 2: I faith in democracy would mean that you believe that,

518
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: despite any turbulence, that we might see from time to

519
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 2: time that there's enough checks and balance is in the

520
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 2: system that democracy will be preserved.

521
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: I always say this, Have I trust the voters eventually? Yeah,

522
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, I just think if everybody has all the

523
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: right information, they're going to make the right decision. Sometimes

524
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: they just don't have enough information.

525
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: I would say most times that would be right, But

526
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 2: there have been times when people's minds have been and

527
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: we don't need to get into the ravages of you know,

528
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: the ability of human beings to be incredibly cruel to others.

529
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: But by and large I agree with you.

530
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to dig into something you said, and that.

531
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 2: Can be protected too, by the way, by this bigger

532
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 2: issue of faith. I know. See, You're always been a

533
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: skeptic that somebody that's been in politics could write a

534
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: book like this, But I don't think so. I think

535
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: now more than ever it's.

536
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you this, if you wrote this book

537
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, somebody would the assumption would be, and

538
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: you're doing it for political purposes. I would argue, you're

539
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: writing this book now, nobody's going to assume that you're

540
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: you're doing this for some sort of political gain.

541
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that's not why I did it exactly right.

542
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 1: But but you accept that that that's the way someone

543
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: might look at this if you had written it.

544
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 2: Here's what surprised me, Chuck. If I'd have written a

545
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: real ripper here and it just attacked a whole bunch

546
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: of people, the book would do better because I thought

547
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: that people would be ready at this point in time

548
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: for a little bit of going to your corners, chilling out, relaxing. No,

549
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: it's Duke's up, man, We're still We're still in Canada.

550
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: Elbows up, elbows up, els up elo. Yeah, it's funny.

551
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: Point it's going to settle down, though it has to.

552
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 2: We're gonna even fighters get that's why they only have

553
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: fifteen rounds. You can't go sixteen because it can't keep fighting.

554
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: Well, it's it's funny when I think about what's going

555
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: to come next after Trump, and you know, it's a

556
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: question I get. I'm sure it's a question you get.

557
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I lean on and

558
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: I never try to you know, I said, well, you know,

559
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: i'll throwt some names, but instead of names, I try

560
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: to get people to focus on the following. You know,

561
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: we have an uncanny ability in America to gravitate. When

562
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: we pick a new president, we usually pick a president

563
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: that has a character trait that the previous president lacked

564
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: and that it bothered us. Right, I go back George H. W.

565
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: Bush to Bill Clinton. Well. HW Bush had a hard

566
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: time connecting with the average person. Feel your pain, right,

567
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton was all that, Right, George W. Bush, I'm

568
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: going to restore honor and integrity. Right, that was the

569
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 1: whole character thing, personal integrity. Bush to Obama was sort

570
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,040
Speaker 1: of black and white versus Nuance. Right, And you know

571
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: he was mister gray. You know, Obama was the gray,

572
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: you know, and all this stuff, even Obama to Trump, right,

573
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: can you get more opposite of Obama of a skinny

574
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: the skinny black guy than the than the big large

575
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: band from New York City, right, the blowhard. But but

576
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: we wanted a salesman. And in some ways, you know,

577
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: I always thought, you know, Obama's best asset was also

578
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: his worst asset as a politician, which was he he

579
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: he didn't always he didn't always need the He wasn't

580
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: as needy as the average politician, and I think sometimes

581
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: that made him a bit dismissive of those on Capitol Hill.

582
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: Who were maybe a little needier and you needed to, hey,

583
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: go bring them, invite him to the Oval office and

584
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: things like that. But you know Trump was almost all showman.

585
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Biden obviously was the opposite. So so then I sit

586
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: there and think, what will that mean in twenty eight

587
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: are we going to be looking for an opposite personality?

588
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: An opposite We are looking for somebody with a lot

589
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 1: more empathy, you know, And that's what I don't know,

590
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: but I know it will be something Trump is missing.

591
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: Maybe it's empathy, Maybe it's on temperament, maybe it's on you.

592
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: Know, it's if you were looking it would be a

593
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 2: uniter rather than a divider. That's that's what I would think.

594
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: And do you think any member of a of a

595
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: one of the two major parties can is going to

596
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: be able to credibly campaign as a uniter.

597
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: Can't predict? I mean just just say that. People are

598
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: pretty smart. So we have to see we're just early,

599
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: you know, we're one hundred days in.

600
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: You were advising somebody like that was thinking about it

601
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: in twenty eight, you'd be telling them, look, think about

602
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: where this puck's going to be. Don't think about where

603
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: the puck is at the moment.

604
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 2: Well, if I were advising somebody who is going to run,

605
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: I would say, you need to make sure that you

606
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: are capable of raising money, because Chuck Todd in the

607
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: old world would pay attention to nobody who wouldn't pay

608
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 2: attention to somebody that didn't raise any money and didn't

609
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 2: have a good finance report. So that's one thing I

610
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: tell them. Oh and secondly, I would also tell them

611
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: that they need to have an agenda and they should start.

612
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know who. I'm thinking more of

613
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: the Democrats than the Republicans because I don't know what

614
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: the Republicans are going to do.

615
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: I don't know.

616
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 2: I think it's somebody that has had a record that can,

617
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: you know, be like you say, a little bit more empathetic.

618
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: I mean, look, one of the guys I think has

619
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 2: got a lot of potential, Chuck, and you might dismiss

620
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: it. It is And I've said this before. I don't know

621
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: them well, but I've watched him. I was first first

622
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: caught my attention in a shooting in Kentucky and how

623
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: he talked about it and combined compassion his faith. I

624
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: think Andy Basheer is a very interesting guy. I know

625
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: that if the Democrats want to win and they go

626
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 2: left again, they're going to lose, right, But I don't

627
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: know who the brothers Leons will pay.

628
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I you know, that's it's funny.

629
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: It's like I'm because we don't you know, we don't

630
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: know in a year from now with whether being maga

631
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: is good or bad in a Republican primary.

632
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, even.

633
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,560
Speaker 1: Though the assumption I'm obsessed with the three there's three

634
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: senators who are getting primaried that are all Republican. Tillis

635
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: in North Carolina, Cornan in Texas, and Cassidy in Louisiana.

636
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: None of them you would say or maga. All three

637
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: were sort of very much sort of what you would

638
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: have said pre Donald Trump as conventional conservative Republicans. And

639
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: I don't mean that as anything, just sort of like,

640
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, and will it be an asset not to

641
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: be maga? Well maybe the time from now, right.

642
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: If they win. You know what you and I love

643
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 2: about politics, and you just never know what's going to

644
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: happen tomorrow. I just never know.

645
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: And there's always think yeah, and the and the and

646
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: the human element. Yea, your your state's going to be

647
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 1: hosting a fascinating couple of of exercises. I I I

648
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: think Ramaswami is not going to walk into this governor's mansion.

649
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: He's gonna have to earn it.

650
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably right, I mean right now. But again

651
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 2: it's right now. He you know, he looks. I don't.

652
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: I really don't invest a lot of time looking at Ohio.

653
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 2: I'm like Chuck, I'm like George W. Bush. I was there,

654
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: so now I've moved on, So I don't. I don't

655
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: do those people try to drag you into it. Oh yeah,

656
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: but I do it out of it. Yeah, well, how

657
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: they're going to drag each ock? I mean, nobody ever.

658
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: I can't think of anybody that ever dragged me in

659
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: politics anywhere. So I'm just I'm just not going to

660
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: be engaging in it. I mean, I love what Bush

661
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 2: did about that. You know, he just doesn't engage a

662
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 2: very rarely does he say anything. And I think that's

663
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: appropriate when you're a former governor. Just you know, let

664
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: somebody else be governor and let him pick the next governor.

665
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: And I'm not even sure I'm going to show up

666
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 2: at meetings with former governors I decided, but I can

667
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: give you a handicap. I choose not to do it.

668
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 2: But I, of course, being still in the media, I

669
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: have an obligation to kind of analyze things, but I

670
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 2: really shy away from Ohio. I will say one thing

671
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: I don't think Ohio is ruby read. Remember when I

672
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: got elected governor, every office in the state was held

673
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: by a Democrat except for one. The Democrats had a

674
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: horrible bench, they had terrible party leadership, and they disintegrated,

675
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: and so you know, things change, and I think, you

676
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: tell me, do you think people in Youngstown are going

677
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: to keep voting Republican?

678
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 1: Well, right now they're voting Trump. I don't know if

679
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: they're voting Republican. Okay, Well, but you know what I

680
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: mean by that, And that's the I think that's the

681
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: real question. Right, Yes, I agree with that, and that's

682
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, you're right on twenty eight. I sit there

683
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: and it's like, if you make me pick names, I say, well,

684
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 1: obviously there's bands. I think there's Donald Trump Junior. I mean,

685
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: if he wants to run, he's got the brand name,

686
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: and then you're going to have I think a guy

687
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: like Glenn Youngkin is going to be the great Normy

688
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: Hope is my guest, right, it could be Chris. You're

689
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: going to have some that are who can be MAGA

690
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: adjacent without MAGA, right, and young Kid probably is slightly

691
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: more personality than Brian Kemp, but it's sort of those

692
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 1: guys are both sort of feel like they're maybe there.

693
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, right, I don't know if MAGA adjacent.

694
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: If you can't get that vote out, maybe it's it.

695
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter, right.

696
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: Maybe sometimes you do it because you just think you

697
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: want to do it.

698
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: Well, that ought to be the reason to do it. Yeah,

699
00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: So if you were running in twenty eight, what do

700
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: you think think the biggest problem? No, and I'm not no,

701
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: I don't mean it. Well, what's the biggest problem that

702
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 1: you think somebody should use a presidential Put it this way.

703
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: I just interviewed Jay Insley, and this you and Insley

704
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: are going to And I admired Insley's candidacy because he

705
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: decided I don't know whether he thought he was going

706
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: to win the nomination or not. And I'm not going

707
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 1: to put but he said, you know what, I'm going

708
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: to use my candidacy to focus on one issue. And

709
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: he decided to make a climate and we could we

710
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: could just you know, we can debate whether, but I

711
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: admire somebody who says, look, I'm going to use my

712
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: candidacy to try to bring attention to an issue that

713
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: I really think people ought to focus on. So if

714
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: you could use a candidacy like that, you thought it

715
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: could do that you were you were a budget guy.

716
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: It's hard to get people excited about the budget, right.

717
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: You found this out the hard way at times? Well

718
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: what do you how would you galvanize.

719
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 2: What I found out? It was real simple. People did

720
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: not care about these issues. They cared about personal contact

721
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: and do you get them in you care about him?

722
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: And look, remember this, I go to New Hampshire, very

723
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: low name, I D and I finished second. I beat Bush, Cruise, Rubio,

724
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 2: all of them except Trump. I beat everybody else. And

725
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 2: I found there that they didn't really care about balancing

726
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 2: budget and cutting taxes and all that they it mattered.

727
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: But what they really cared about was I think he

728
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: gets me. He's willing to listen to you, he's willing

729
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: to understand my problems. And then I could get into

730
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: the ditch with him and give him a come on,

731
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 2: We can get out of this ditch. We can do well.

732
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: I'll be here with you. It's why I was re

733
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:41,839
Speaker 2: elected so overwhelmingly in Ohio after balancing budgets but expanding medicaid, right.

734
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a combination of leave no one

735
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: behind and try to lift everybody up. I think unity,

736
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 2: unifying this country again is really important. It's going to

737
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 2: take a special voice and a special person to do it.

738
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: And we're better when we're united and not as good

739
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: as when we're divided. So and then, I think there

740
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 2: are a couple issues out there that really matter. People

741
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 2: are worked up about the stock market, the bond market,

742
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: and everything else. If we don't figure out a way

743
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: to tame this national debt, and I know nobody's interested

744
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 2: in it, but I'm trying to figure out how we

745
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: can get them interested in it, We're going to melt

746
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: down like you've never seen when we start printing money. Okay,

747
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 2: just that's number one, and I'm I'm going to actually

748
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 2: work on that, I think in the next couple of years,

749
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 2: if I can figure a way to get anybody motivated

750
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,720
Speaker 2: around it. But I think there's a couple other things.

751
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: I think the healthcare system in this country is very

752
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 2: seriously broken and it is so hard to fix. If

753
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 2: I were a leader and I had the power, I

754
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: would convene hospitals, doctors, pharmacies, nurses, all the people that

755
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: are connected to the healthcare system to sit down and say,

756
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: how do we fundamentally change this in such a way

757
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: that we are now treating people to keep them healthy

758
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: rather than being rewarded for treating them when they're sick.

759
00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: And how do we open the whole system up to

760
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: look at quality, to look at costs, to look at

761
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: at you know that I think is really big, And

762
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: I think the other one that is really big is

763
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: I think just outside is I think retraining. There has

764
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: to be a lifetime retraining program in the era of

765
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: AI and everything else, so people don't think that they're stuck.

766
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: And because they're stuck now they're in a job, they

767
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen. I think those are

768
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 2: two really big issues. How do you give people the

769
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: sense that I can be okay tomorrow? And secondly, how

770
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 2: do we control the healthcare system because programs like Medicare

771
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 2: are on a fast train to bankruptcy. Those two things

772
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 2: really matter, But at the end it was Bill Clinton

773
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: who you brought up saying I feel your pain. That

774
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: is what that's isn't that when you think about him.

775
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: That's to me what connects. I feel your pain, and

776
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: then everything is that's the patina. Then everything else is

777
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 2: underneath it to to demonstrate who you are. You know,

778
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 2: another serious problem we have in this country is behavioral

779
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 2: health and insurance form and that should be done in

780
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: terms of health care because the insurance people are starting

781
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: to hate insurance. Well, we know that people are very

782
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 2: angry about insurance. It's always great until you need it.

783
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: I mean, all those things where people feel as though

784
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 2: it's out of control are things that and I think

785
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: it includes health care, It includes insurance, it includes a

786
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: loss of job. I think nothing we can see right now,

787
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: but it's it's the avalanche that could come our way

788
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: if we don't control our debt. And it's finally, I

789
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 2: feel your pain and we're in it together. That's what

790
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 2: I would do. It's pretty good campaign message.

791
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: Right, I mean, I think you're spot on about both

792
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: AI and healthcare. And let let me do medicaid here

793
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: a minute, because you did. I feel like we have

794
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: stumbled into medicaid is universal catastrophic health care, meaning if

795
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: worst case scenario happens in your life, there's always Medicaid.

796
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: But that is not and and maybe it wasn't initial

797
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: and I do think, look, it is a God said

798
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 1: to have medicaid if you've got an aging parent and

799
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: they run out of money, and you know, to know

800
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: that there's a system out there that will help you

801
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: take care of your parent. You don't have to figure

802
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: out how to do it in your house. You can

803
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: go find a Medicaid bed right in a nursing facility

804
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: or recovering facility, things like that. But it you know,

805
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: it's funny. I remember Lamar Alexander when he was governor

806
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: Tennessee said once he said, boy, I would gladly trade

807
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: Medicaid back to the federal government for all the education dollars.

808
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: You guys can run healthcare. I don't want to run

809
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: healthcare anymore because it is it's just hard to do

810
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 1: it by the states. Do you agree with that assessment?

811
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:49,439
Speaker 2: Now, if you gave the education establishment a trillion dollars,

812
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 2: it would never be enough.

813
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 1: We have.

814
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 2: Our education system is so broken. And that gets back

815
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 2: to this ongoing training through a life time education Chuck,

816
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: come on R K through twelve schools, not all of them,

817
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 2: many of them. Let me just put it many of them.

818
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 2: So nobody going.

819
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: I know, I didn't mean to get at but I

820
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: agree with that.

821
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: And he was saying, oh, let me spend all this

822
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 2: money on education. No, we need a different kind of education,

823
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 2: an education system with technology coming where where we can

824
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: have individual instruction to every kid to figure out how

825
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,479
Speaker 2: they learn best. That's another story. But when it comes

826
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: to medicaid, the problem that Chuck, this is amazing. When

827
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: I became governor, I think medicaid was grown in like

828
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: nine percent rough numbers here. When I was governor and

829
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: expanding it by six hundred thousand, it was growing at

830
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 2: three and a half percent. Now the guy who's the

831
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: governor is growing it at nine percent. You know why,

832
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: pay off, pay everybody off, all the providers, get what

833
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 2: they want. You make them all happy, Chuck. We're down

834
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 2: in this country to I have to give you what

835
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: you want because if I don't, you're going to be

836
00:45:59,120 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: mad at me.

837
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

838
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 2: That's where we that's how we exist today. And that

839
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 2: doesn't work. You've got to call people to a higher

840
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 2: purpose and explain to them why.

841
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: But I mean saying, I'll tell you what. I'll tell

842
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: you what's perverse about the health care industry.

843
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 2: And before we're done, we are going to talk about

844
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: my book, because that's why we are here.

845
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 1: No, in fact, I think we've been intertwining it. But

846
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: let's talk about the health care industry a second. Let

847
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: me give you this conundrum. Since you're a free you're

848
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: a free market tier. For profit hospitals are less profitable

849
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: than nonprofit hospitals.

850
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: Discuss Wait, say that again.

851
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: Let's say for profit, the for profit hospital systems are

852
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: less profitable than the nonprofit. That's probably true, it is true.

853
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 2: Just you know what, I would never have known that

854
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: if I hadn't been watching things, because I'm aware of

855
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: a for profit operation involving primary care, and I keep

856
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 2: telling them you should go and become a not for profit.

857
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: But they're rare for profit because your Medicare right, your

858
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: Medicare reimbursement rates higher. But talk about how perverse the

859
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: system is when that is a fact and you're sitting here.

860
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: The reason I'm more aware of this, perhaps than than

861
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 1: than the other non healthcare reporters is one of the

862
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 1: reasons why universities right now. Are some of them are

863
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: so flush with cash? Is if they run their own

864
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 1: hospital system, they're all nonprofit. University of Miami takes their

865
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: you Miami Health money and uses it for the football program.

866
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 1: University of Texas, you're in favor of that, Chuck md Anderson,

867
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: But University of Texas md Anderson helps provide there. And

868
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: in fact, the universities that don't own their own hospitals

869
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: now wish they did because of how that the system works.

870
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: So the question is this is a case where you

871
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: just see there was a time the for profit hospitals

872
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 1: made more money and the non profits were struggling. And

873
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: then you government sort of just reversed how they did this,

874
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: and then everybody realized they could they could make money

875
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: out of the tax code.

876
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 2: Well, and then you know, they did the tax system

877
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: for the you know, you know about that.

878
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: We're probably making everybody. But this is to me, no, no, no, no,

879
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: at the heart of the problem.

880
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 2: No no no. But you see, you're you're trying to

881
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 2: go at it and on an individual basis, and I

882
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: get get all that. Okay, how you have to take

883
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: this piece and that piece and the other piece I'm

884
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 2: going to give you. I'm going to give you three

885
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: quick examples. Penny Casic, take a penny out of every dollar.

886
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 2: We got an equal group of Republicans and Democrats together

887
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: in a room and we were able to save a

888
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 2: penny out of every dollar. And it doesn't sound like

889
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: a lot, but you had it all up. It's pretty good.

890
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 2: And both parties fought it and we came very close

891
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 2: to winning. If anybody on this in these groups, Republican

892
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,319
Speaker 2: or Democrat, objected the savings were taken out, we had

893
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: very few taken out. Let's go back to the budget

894
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: itself when I was chairman and we were trying to

895
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 2: get things done.

896
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: This is basically this is Doze the right way.

897
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 2: Susan Molinari gave up transit subsidies as long as the

898
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: guy in Iowa gave up farm subsidies, and we got

899
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 2: it done. What I'm trying to tell you is, Chuck.

900
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 2: You need a convener who can get people. We need

901
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: Chuck Todd in the room. Okay, you walk in there.

902
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: You're gonna be intellectually honest about how we fix it.

903
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 2: So the hospitals are honest, the pharmacies, pharmaceuticals, right, we

904
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: get everybody in the room and sink, how are we

905
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,919
Speaker 2: going to fix this system? Because it's costing more and more.

906
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 2: There are more people who are not getting to kind

907
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: of care they want. The quality is not what we want.

908
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: And everybody would agree with that. If you just go

909
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: at it one piece at a time, you'll never get there.

910
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 2: It has to be done, and you can't do it.

911
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 2: It's not I've done it two or three times.

912
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: You know. This is why I've always gravitated towards you

913
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: in general, which is I'm not looking for somebody with

914
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: the right plans right as my elected official. I'm looking

915
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 1: for somebody who knows how to bring the right people

916
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: in the room to solve the problem exact period. And

917
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: too many presidential candidates I think they have to have

918
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: the solution. This is my you know, climate solution, this

919
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: is my healthcare solution. And it's like, I don't want plans.

920
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 1: I want to know you're going to I want a

921
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: plan of action. How am I going to do it?

922
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: I always thought Bill McRaven, you know, I had this

923
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: fantasy about Bill McRaven coming in to be the pastor

924
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: for patriotism for America right, but to come in and

925
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: as a thirty year as a thirty year military guy,

926
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: him saying, look, I don't I haven't been in public

927
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: policy for thirty years. I've been serving the country. But

928
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: I can tell you what I know. Immigration is a problem,

929
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get everybody in the room and

930
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,720
Speaker 1: we're not leaving until we have a reasonable asylum system,

931
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 1: a reasonable eight you know, eahbo et cetera, et cetera.

932
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: I'd like more candidates to there's one process. There's one

933
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: thing to make the process part of the pitch, and

934
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: I can't remember which candidate. But the danger in that

935
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: is if you don't have some experience in government. Okay,

936
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: I agree with that.

937
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: If you don't have some, you're going to get lost

938
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 2: the same way.

939
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 1: Jesse Ventura is my favorite example. He all the right instincts.

940
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: He got eaten alive by that legislature he did.

941
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 2: But you have to have as an experience if you're

942
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: going to run for president, you have to have people

943
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 2: around you that can tell you no, no, no, no,

944
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 2: not that, but look at this, and then let them

945
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: do what they want to do. And when you're in office.

946
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,839
Speaker 2: I had more meetings where I'd stuffed twenty twenty five

947
00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: people in a room. Everybody got to participate. I made

948
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: a decision. I empowered people. They reported to me. Look

949
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: the proofs in the pudding. You know we I hate

950
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,359
Speaker 2: to even go on it sounds I had a great

951
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 2: team of people. They all work together. We created jobs

952
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: Ohio the most important and dynamic economic development operation in America. Today.

953
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: We've gone from forty ninth to like seventh. I mean,

954
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 2: we're just kicking tail because we all work together. We

955
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: work together, and that's how you get things done. And

956
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 2: you need a leader, and they've got to have a

957
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 2: sense of where they want to go. But you've got

958
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,840
Speaker 2: to have a little bit of political experience.

959
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: Well look, it's funny you brought up a Shaer earlier. Basher,

960
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: somebody I'm very intrigued by, because here's a guy who's

961
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: had to govern with a Republican legislature and he could

962
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: run it. He could just be angry at them all

963
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: the time, or he tries to figure out how they

964
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,879
Speaker 1: can get stuff done. And ultimately, I think I do

965
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 1: think whatever the middle I think I always describe the

966
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: middle of the country is more like the thirty yard lines.

967
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: I think the middle is a lot larger than we

968
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: treat it. That doesn't mean they don't vote the same way.

969
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:55,799
Speaker 1: But I think when I think middle of the road,

970
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: meaning you're you're not dogma right, you're not willing, You're

971
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 1: you're willing to move all right, I'll accept that, you know,

972
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: type of type of mindset versus the extremes. Let's go

973
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,759
Speaker 1: back to your book, because i'd hear you. I know

974
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 1: you want to you want to talk about the book.

975
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: Where are you? You know there's this where where how

976
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 1: do you integrate faith institutions into government response without making

977
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 1: the separation of church and state.

978
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 2: People leave examples in the book. So look, one guy

979
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 2: goes up to this place in Portland. He gets a

980
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 2: group of his buddies from church and a couple other churches.

981
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:37,959
Speaker 2: They go up and clean up the playground. They fix

982
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 2: the whole school. He then turns it into a literacy program.

983
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: The schools worked with him. Uh, there's a lady who's

984
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: used the portal of the schools to be able to

985
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 2: inform parents about all the things that might be available

986
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 2: to them if their kids have trouble. There are the

987
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 2: people who have worked in the foster care area. There's

988
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: now a program going nationwide where the faith communities working

989
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 2: with the government of foster Care, and the government has

990
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: praised these people. You can't go in and proselytize your

991
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 2: greatest The greatest way to spread faith is not by

992
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 2: what you say, but what you do. And these people

993
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 2: are in there, yes, And I think that to not

994
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: have these solutions come from well meaning people. Now you

995
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 2: go in there and you start preaching your stuff, I

996
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: don't think that works. Okay, But the most important thing

997
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: to me is if you look at this book or

998
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 2: anything else about faith, it's because you feel so strongly

999
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 2: about the call of a higher power that you're willing

1000
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 2: to take. You're really willing to have courage and believe

1001
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 2: even if you start at skipware one, that you can

1002
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,719
Speaker 2: be successful in the end. And it also forces us

1003
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 2: to think, if you have a liberal and a concert. Okay, Chuck,

1004
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 2: you and I are driving in we're in Vermont, the

1005
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: middle of the winner, and we see this car in

1006
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 2: the snow bank, and you and I hop out, and

1007
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: these other two guys hop out, and we pushed the dark.

1008
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: We can't get it out. We're pushing it, pushing it.

1009
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 2: We're laughing, our halts are falling off, and we push

1010
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 2: it out, we go have a beer, we find out

1011
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: that you know that they're of a complete different philosophy

1012
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 2: and political It doesn't matter right the body. It's like

1013
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 2: sitting in a University of Miami football game getting their

1014
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 2: brains beat off by Ohio State and you just have

1015
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 2: a great time with your.

1016
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: Fucking funny I mean, I will tell you I still

1017
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: have vision of the Ohio State fan I was sitting

1018
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: next to when you guys told that national title from

1019
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,799
Speaker 1: US who when we when it appeared that Miami had won,

1020
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: the guy literally turned to me and he goes, man,

1021
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed watching the game with you, I said, say,

1022
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 1: this is great. Then of course, oh look there's a flag,

1023
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 1: and then you know and then lo and behold Terry Porter.

1024
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: By the way, I still know the guy's day. His

1025
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: name was Terry Porter. He was a Big twelve official,

1026
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: and I'm still ticked off the guy for throwing the flag.

1027
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: Somebody told me that there was guy in Columbus that

1028
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: saw the incompletion or whatever the heck it was. I

1029
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,359
Speaker 2: don't remember it, turned off the television and went to work,

1030
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,080
Speaker 2: and the next day he shows I.

1031
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: Didn't find out.

1032
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 2: That's so funny. Yeah. But anyway, Uh, well, to go

1033
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 2: back to your example and the other thing you I've

1034
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 2: told you this before we get to fixing things locally.

1035
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 2: And I want to bring up that Huntman book called

1036
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,440
Speaker 2: The Upswing. Yeah no, not.

1037
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: All of his work. Yeah, all of his work is fascinating,

1038
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: it really is.

1039
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: But the Upswing says that the Social Gospel movement changed

1040
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 2: the country from an eye culture to WE culture, coming

1041
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 2: from the Gilded Age to the Great twentieth century. In

1042
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 2: our country, where we went from I to wei, we

1043
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: were in an eye environment, not a we. And secondly,

1044
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 2: the other thing is all changed comes from the bottom up.

1045
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 2: The biggest I say, and you're in my lifetime. The

1046
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 2: single biggest change in our society is civil rights and

1047
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 2: it all came bottom up. So you know who you

1048
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 2: going to miss more if they go on vacation. You're

1049
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 2: the Secretary of State or your trash man. I mean,

1050
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: So we need to dig in. And if we're at

1051
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 2: a rally, that's fine, We're to rally on Saturday, Well,

1052
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: what are we going to do on Monday? So we

1053
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 2: can know.

1054
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 1: There's part of me that thinks are obsession with national

1055
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: politics is because we've untethered people locally.

1056
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, you and what you're thinking about in terms

1057
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 2: of local news, you're.

1058
00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: Right now, we've got to bring the community back where

1059
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,120
Speaker 1: and frankly, it can't be about you know, this isn't

1060
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: about making journalism for journalists. It's more of journalism and

1061
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: service to your community, which is you're just helping people

1062
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: live their lives. You're helping people, you know, whether maybe

1063
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: it's reporting on the public school system, but like, how

1064
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: do you navigate the public school system if you have

1065
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: an autistic kid and every system slightly different, and what

1066
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: are the services? Like? You know there local journalism, when

1067
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 1: it was really good, did that really well? Right? It

1068
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: was served journalism. National journalism is civic journalism. It is

1069
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: slightly different. And I think when you get rid of one,

1070
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: then everybody looks at journalism and thinks, oh, you guys,

1071
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: just you know, you have no idea about my life.

1072
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: You're not reporting on the things that matter to me.

1073
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: And they're right, because that isn't what that wasn't the

1074
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: national deal. Locals should be this service oriented oriented journalism.

1075
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's simply telling you what's happening at the high

1076
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: school games that night, and sometimes it's telling you where

1077
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: where you could take your kids to get it, to

1078
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: go out to eat for less than fifty bucks. Right,

1079
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: that's also a service that you could provide somebody. And

1080
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 1: I think that's the you know, I have a Richard Gingris. Gingris.

1081
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 1: He's a guy who's been been doing a lot of

1082
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: the news initiatives outside of Google and stuff. And he's

1083
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: a guy I been talking to a lot. He actually

1084
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: thinks the worst thing to happen to journalism was the

1085
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 1: Woodward and he calls it the Woodward and Bernstein effect,

1086
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: where you had a whole generation a journalists who just

1087
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 1: wanted to go find the big stories, go for go

1088
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,439
Speaker 1: find and and and get fame and fortune that way,

1089
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 1: when actually ninety percent of journalism really is community service journalism,

1090
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 1: and that that actually is what people that's why they

1091
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: relied on it locally, and that Chuck.

1092
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: There's this young man I know. His mother is a

1093
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: dear friend of mine, and his name is Jackson Rorr,

1094
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 2: and he's writing for the local newspaper and you know,

1095
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,520
Speaker 2: in New York, and he covers sports. The kid's like

1096
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: a big he's like everybody wants to know him because

1097
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: he's writing about the football team. The baseball team, and uh,

1098
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 2: it's it's really cool. And he's really he's he now

1099
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 2: he wants to be a journalist, But I don't know

1100
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: if he wants a journalist to be an investigator. I

1101
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 2: think he maybe, I don't know, we'll see, but.

1102
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: I think he enjoyed hemply curious. Say, the best journalists

1103
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 1: are those that I always say the best. The reason

1104
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: why I love it is I'm a I'm curious and

1105
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: I enjoy knowing something before somebody else does. And I

1106
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: know that seems like a that's that's you know, that's

1107
01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: and and and the best journalists sort of are just

1108
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: obsessed with getting information. They're curious, they want to know more.

1109
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: And if that's your motivation, you're usually going to get

1110
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: some pretty good journalism.

1111
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. Well you and what you're doing now

1112
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 2: is very interesting. So yeah, well I get local news.

1113
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: It really does matter. It really does. Local matters. It

1114
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: does it's.

1115
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: Well and it gets back to the it gets back

1116
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: to the community. It's sort of you know, I do worry.

1117
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: You know, if you look at and it's interesting you

1118
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: brought up the Gilded Age because there's a part of

1119
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: me that believes were kind of right, not quite repeating,

1120
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: but it rhymes right, the the Robert Barons and the Broligarchs. Right.

1121
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: The transactional nature of politics back then was super transactional.

1122
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 1: It's becoming super transactional now. Frankly, I worry that we're

1123
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: worshiping essentially everything is about getting yours. Everybody's got to

1124
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: get there.

1125
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: It's the eye culture. It's the eye culture again.

1126
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: And it did. I don't know if it's you hate

1127
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 1: to say it. Is it going to take an existential

1128
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: threat or a great depression for people to sort.

1129
01:01:16,160 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 2: Of look, I mean, I've told you this before, and

1130
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: so I think you're there's something in you that says no.

1131
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 2: It was a it was a faith movement that changed it,

1132
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: the social gospel movement change.

1133
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 1: It was all over and they went all around it, right,

1134
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 1: But it just started.

1135
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: But it started in one little place and its spread

1136
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 2: and then we had the reform for child labor, the

1137
01:01:39,440 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 2: reforms around women. It doesn't take that, it takes. It

1138
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: takes a spark that comes where we are. And the

1139
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 2: other thing you'll never know.

1140
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 1: What can come.

1141
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:53,280
Speaker 2: And you know this whole thing that if we just

1142
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: had a catastrophe, everybody would be united I'm not. I

1143
01:01:56,960 --> 01:02:00,439
Speaker 2: don't buy that. I used to think that, but I mean,

1144
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,200
Speaker 2: we'll come together momentarily and then we go back to

1145
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: our corners. There has to be a different perspective, a

1146
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:10,080
Speaker 2: different sense in everybody's soul. And part of it is this.

1147
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 2: When I look at a person, I need to see

1148
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: the image of God of which I will be held

1149
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 2: accountable for. If I cease the image of God, I'm

1150
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 2: going to be really careful about the way I treat them.

1151
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: And if I see nothing but another guy honking his

1152
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 2: horn at me on the road, or you know, road

1153
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 2: rage or any of that other stuff, then it's just

1154
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 2: like Katie bar the door. It's going to take that

1155
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: kind of of some sort of a spirit renewal. And

1156
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 2: you saw it a little bit of it, by the way,

1157
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 2: I think with the Pope a little bit.

1158
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:43,960
Speaker 1: I was just going to ask you about Pope Francis.

1159
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: I mean, he really is sort of the he was.

1160
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: He's been fighting this, you could see it. He sees

1161
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 1: whatever the culture is going, and he was trying in

1162
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: his own way to both modernize the church on empathy

1163
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: issues in some ways go back to basics on being

1164
01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: in service of your community.

1165
01:03:08,680 --> 01:03:12,640
Speaker 2: You know, he was nobody. Nobody liked him. The left

1166
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 2: didn't like him, the right didn't like him. How many

1167
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: people like the people the people liked him.

1168
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: I think he's going to be. I think he's going

1169
01:03:21,680 --> 01:03:26,800
Speaker 1: to be. I don't know. We'll see right, recency biases everything,

1170
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 1: and I'm always trying to be careful of this, but

1171
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:33,320
Speaker 1: I feel like a one hundred years from now he

1172
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: might be the pope, the one pope people remember could

1173
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:37,360
Speaker 1: be twenty first.

1174
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 2: B And when I say they didn't like him, you know,

1175
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 2: the right didn't like him because they thought he was

1176
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: too loose with the theology. The left didn't like him

1177
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 2: because they didn't think he went far enough. You know

1178
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 2: what you and I say when when you when people

1179
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 2: in the right and the left don't like you, you

1180
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:51,439
Speaker 2: must be doing something right.

1181
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 1: He was doing what you and I talk about all

1182
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: the time, which look, he had a north star, yea.

1183
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: He was going to bring everybody as closer to it.

1184
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: But he knew that you have to actually go slowly

1185
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 1: if you want to bring more people along. If you

1186
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: go too fast, you only bring certain people with you. Right,

1187
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: This is the problem what Trump is facing. You know,

1188
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:15,919
Speaker 1: just I always say tactically. I am, I am. I'm

1189
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: not a fan of the tariffs for a variety of reasons.

1190
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: I'm guessing you're not either. But there was if you

1191
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: really believed in this, there was a way to do this.

1192
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely yes. And this was not the way to

1193
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 2: do it.

1194
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: You could have you know, or or you could have

1195
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: done this with six months advance notice, put it out there,

1196
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: given business time to prepare, given countries time to potentially

1197
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: do deals, and instead you go too fast and you

1198
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 1: don't bring everybody with you. And this is just a classic.

1199
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: But this shows you. You know, Donald Trump here, he

1200
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: is a two term president. Now, he's shockingly inexperienced at governing. Still,

1201
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 1: he just doesn't know how to bring people together and

1202
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 1: he never has.

1203
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: I think it might be chucked that he has too

1204
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 2: many people around him that don't tell him him with

1205
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 2: what's going on. And when you don't have people to

1206
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: tell you you're wrong and you need to think or

1207
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 2: change or modify, I.

1208
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: Won't allow those people around you know, he doesn't allow

1209
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: you have to be a person comfortable hearing negative information,

1210
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: and I don't know if he is.

1211
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's you know, you think back to

1212
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,440
Speaker 2: JFK And I don't know. He's probably been lionized about

1213
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: the Cuban missile crisis, but it just sounds to me

1214
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 2: like he had such an open discussion that instead of

1215
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 2: dropping the bombs, he you know, he sent his brother

1216
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 2: to see Doll Brannon and they ended up getting past

1217
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: it because they they just didn't listen to to the military.

1218
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 2: They listened to lots of different people, and they obviously

1219
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 2: they came to the right conclusion. And uh And faced

1220
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 2: on Khrushchev at a time when Khrushchoff thought he had

1221
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: us on the run.

1222
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 1: Open.

1223
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 2: Open is the way it is. But you have to

1224
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 2: you have to be comfortable with yourself, secure in the

1225
01:05:56,720 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: knowledge that however smart you are, it's okay to have

1226
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 2: people smarter than you around, that you can make good judgment,

1227
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 2: that you have good instincts and a good gut. I mean,

1228
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: that's how it works.

1229
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: Now.

1230
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,240
Speaker 2: If you go too fast, it's not only going too

1231
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,959
Speaker 2: fast to implement one thing, it's also having too many

1232
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 2: things you're trying to do at once, which was a

1233
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,920
Speaker 2: mistake I made because I had so many things I

1234
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 2: was doing when I was first elected as governor that

1235
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people didn't know what they

1236
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 2: were and I slowed it down a little bit and

1237
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 2: let people see it. It would have been more effective.

1238
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,720
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny, you're right, and yet how many times

1239
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: have people thought that? You know that the mistake some

1240
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 1: presidents do is by the time you get to your

1241
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: second initiative, you're not popular enough to get it past. Right.

1242
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: That's the tyranny, Right, That's why you get the advice

1243
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 1: that says, hey, try to do everything at once to

1244
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:47,800
Speaker 1: see how much you can get done, you know, because

1245
01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 1: everything is a time. I want to go to something

1246
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 1: you hinted at and I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead.

1247
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 1: And Gina Ramundo said something. I was at a dinner

1248
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: with her about six months ago, maybe it was a

1249
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,320
Speaker 1: year ago, and she said something that triggered and it

1250
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: was like one of those oh my god, how come

1251
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: we're not having this conversation And she goes, you know,

1252
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: our public the whole we haven't rethought the public school

1253
01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:19,840
Speaker 1: public education paradigm since we started it. Here was this

1254
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: amazing idea that when we first implemented, everybody around the

1255
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 1: world was like, man, we got to do what they're

1256
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: doing right, And other countries adopted our boy, they're making education.

1257
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 1: They're going to educate that, they're going to institute this

1258
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: by the government, and they're really onto something. And yet

1259
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: the design of our public school system is the exact

1260
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: same as it was when we first did it, and

1261
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 1: yet we're four times the population. I think we have

1262
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: more states since we last rethought this. That we haven't

1263
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: rethought what the public education system should look like, forget

1264
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century, in the last half of

1265
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, and instead we're doing what we've done

1266
01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: with healthcare, which is, well, let's try a charter school system,

1267
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 1: let's try magnet schools, let's try this. But we haven't

1268
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:12,320
Speaker 1: rethought the fundamental aspect of you know, how it should

1269
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: be run, how it should be funded. What you said,

1270
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 1: do we even rethink grades? This isn't an age thing

1271
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:23,480
Speaker 1: that should be done by by You know, if somebody

1272
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 1: becomes an expert at something, so what if it takes

1273
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,759
Speaker 1: them till they're forty to become that expert versus twenty

1274
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: five to become that expert? Right, why do you think

1275
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 1: this has been so difficult to say? You know what, Look,

1276
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 1: it's an amazing idea. We need to update it, and

1277
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:44,560
Speaker 1: let's have let's have this big conversation.

1278
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 2: Well, because you think the Pentagon has an ability to

1279
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 2: resist reform, it pales in comparison to the education educational

1280
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 2: industrial complex.

1281
01:08:57,960 --> 01:08:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to call and it's all over, right, you

1282
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,960
Speaker 1: can't just this one. It's not just teachers union.

1283
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 2: No, it's has to say my kids school. You know,

1284
01:09:06,400 --> 01:09:08,639
Speaker 2: education is not great, but my kids school is good,

1285
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 2: and and they think that, you know, if we just

1286
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 2: pour more money in, it will all be better. And

1287
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 2: it doesn't work. And so this is a case where

1288
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:19,600
Speaker 2: I think you need to go with a group of

1289
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,080
Speaker 2: the willing, a coalition of the willing. What schools do

1290
01:09:22,120 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 2: you want to join to do things differently and then

1291
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 2: show that those things can work. This is one maybe

1292
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,720
Speaker 2: where you cannot do it comprehensively. Unlike what I said

1293
01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 2: about healthcare.

1294
01:09:34,600 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 1: You think this is something that is community and a

1295
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:40,240
Speaker 1: coalition of the willing.

1296
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:42,679
Speaker 2: I mean, I look, you can get to the point

1297
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 2: where a teacher is a helper, not really a teacher,

1298
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 2: that the kids can learn through technology in a different way.

1299
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 2: Jimmy learns different than Sally. Let them learn on the

1300
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 2: basis of how.

1301
01:09:57,400 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 1: Look, but the teacher. You could almost be an expert

1302
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: coach more like a coach. Interesting.

1303
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's one way. And I do think

1304
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 2: that it's pretty darn clear that the KIP schools do

1305
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 2: a great job, but there's such resistance.

1306
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 1: But is that self selecting? I mean, I'm with you

1307
01:10:13,040 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: on the cane.

1308
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I have about you here.

1309
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 1: How do you know it's not self selecting in that?

1310
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 2: Because because if you take Abigail Wexner, who runs a

1311
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 2: KIP school out here, she takes the kids that come

1312
01:10:24,880 --> 01:10:27,120
Speaker 2: from the toughest places that I mean, and they're all

1313
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 2: going to college. I mean, I believe, I've seen it.

1314
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 2: Believe I've seen it, and I.

1315
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 1: Believes there because they're Any parent that wants their kid

1316
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 1: to get a good education figures out how to navigate

1317
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 1: a system, whether they have money or not.

1318
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 2: The lady told me once when I went to Philadelphia

1319
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 2: to the poorest schools back when I was writing my

1320
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 2: first book. He said, you know, every parent loves their kid,

1321
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 2: but sometimes you have to go down very deep to

1322
01:10:50,080 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 2: find that love. And I think it's there's another place

1323
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 2: where I think the churches could be critically important to

1324
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 2: helping to change this system. We've been spending our time

1325
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 2: talking about how, by the way, how Trump doesn't want

1326
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:09,799
Speaker 2: to listen. Biden didn't let anybody they Biden's people wouldn't

1327
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,680
Speaker 2: let anybody near him, no, because they might tell him

1328
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,320
Speaker 2: something to get his attention. And the cover up by

1329
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 2: the media is a disgrace.

1330
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know. I get my back up about

1331
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,719
Speaker 1: blaming the media for this, because I blame the Democratic Party.

1332
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 1: The media only can report what they can report.

1333
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:27,839
Speaker 2: Well, they didn't report what they saw.

1334
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 1: Well, I think some did, but there were others did

1335
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: there were others. Well, the problem is you have too

1336
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,080
Speaker 1: many pundits pretending they're journalists.

1337
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, any other thing is they all want access. So

1338
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,920
Speaker 2: you know, if you want to get access to Tiger Woods,

1339
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,599
Speaker 2: you better not write anything negative.

1340
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 1: Something to that. But but it goes back to I mean,

1341
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:48,639
Speaker 1: you're right about Bob.

1342
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,679
Speaker 2: But look, I just I didn't want to just trash

1343
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:55,680
Speaker 2: Trump without no in fact, they're trashing of Biden and

1344
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:57,599
Speaker 2: to hear other things.

1345
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 1: Oh, I think Biden was a failed president and he.

1346
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 2: Thinks that he could he would have won.

1347
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: No, are you kidding me?

1348
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:05,800
Speaker 2: I know, telling him, Matt.

1349
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: You know, my wife says this all the time, she goes, look,

1350
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:11,720
Speaker 1: a better leader would have made the country not want

1351
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 1: to return to Trump. And it's a tough thing to say,

1352
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: but she's not wrong. And I you know, she's always

1353
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: put it that way. She goes, you know, look, and

1354
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 1: she didn't want to she doesn't like being a Biden critic,

1355
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: but she said that, and I thought, you know, that's

1356
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:27,720
Speaker 1: a very fair point. A better leader would have made

1357
01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:30,280
Speaker 1: the country not want to go back. Fuck.

1358
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 2: I endorsed the guy.

1359
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 1: I know you did.

1360
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I was the first Republican you know. Now,

1361
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 2: they were all endorsing Kamala Harris and all that stuff,

1362
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,280
Speaker 2: and I was the first one out there doing it.

1363
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 2: Ranks and I thought he was going to be a

1364
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:44,400
Speaker 2: healer and he was anything but that.

1365
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 1: You know what.

1366
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 2: The same thing I talked to him the night that

1367
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 2: I endorsed him at their convention, he called me. Do

1368
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:53,160
Speaker 2: you know that? I never spoke to him for the

1369
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 2: next four years, not a single word.

1370
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 1: I that's that's so telling. I mean, it's so telling.

1371
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,759
Speaker 2: You're right, that's not political malpractice. I don't My feelings

1372
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 2: aren't hurt.

1373
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: It's just but I'll be honest, that wasn't the presidency.

1374
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 1: I thought we were voting for and I actually thought

1375
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: we were voting for a guy who was going to

1376
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: restore the idea that hey, this is how, this is

1377
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 1: how governance should work. Everybody's got a seat at the table.

1378
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it didn't.

1379
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:24,679
Speaker 1: It didn't work that way. And you're right, I don't

1380
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,000
Speaker 1: know how I go. There's a part of me that wonders,

1381
01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 1: had he been fifteen years younger, maybe he's maybe it's

1382
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:36,920
Speaker 1: a different guy. Maybe I don't know, or maybe there's

1383
01:13:36,920 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 1: a part of another part of me that goes, boy,

1384
01:13:38,640 --> 01:13:40,760
Speaker 1: the guy tried to either ran or tried to run

1385
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:47,840
Speaker 1: for president every four years. He could you know, you know.

1386
01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:48,240
Speaker 2: Kind of heresy, But I've got to tell you this story.

1387
01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 2: So Biden invited me up to the University of Delaware,

1388
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 2: and I went up to do an event with him.

1389
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 2: And let's say the event was I was probably an

1390
01:13:56,120 --> 01:13:57,800
Speaker 2: hour and a half, but let's just assume it was

1391
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 2: an hour. So he spoke for fifteen minutes and I

1392
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 2: spoke for ten. Okay, I get home.

1393
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:06,920
Speaker 1: And by the way, it's not as if you're a

1394
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: shrinking violet.

1395
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 2: No, no, no, but I it's just the way it was.

1396
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 1: And the way it worked out.

1397
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 2: So I got home, I called McCain because he was

1398
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 2: at the time he was very sick, and I said,

1399
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:19,840
Speaker 2: checking on him, john how you doing and how do

1400
01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 2: you feel about your faith? And he goes, you don't

1401
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:23,519
Speaker 2: have to worry about me, Johnny, And so it was

1402
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 2: very nice, and I said, well, I just went to

1403
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 2: this event for Biden, and you know, he spoke fifty

1404
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 2: and I spoke ten. He goes, yeah, he says, that's

1405
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 2: that's Biden, is it? He said, he said, it's why

1406
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 2: we love him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he said. You know,

1407
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,320
Speaker 2: I went to a funeral once and I was sitting

1408
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 2: next to Dan in a way, and Biden was doing

1409
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:42,600
Speaker 2: one of the eulogies, and when he finished in a

1410
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 2: way poked me in the side and said, McCain, if

1411
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 2: you ever do one of those eulogies, don't forget to

1412
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 2: mention the corpse.

1413
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'll tell you. It is so funny. There's

1414
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 1: quite a few people who who make eulogy. It always

1415
01:14:57,040 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: bothers me when I go to any memorial service and

1416
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:02,479
Speaker 1: the eulogy about the about the person, about the person

1417
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 1: giving the eulogy, and not about the person exactly.

1418
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,960
Speaker 2: I still laugh at that. I'll tell you, we miss McCain.

1419
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,439
Speaker 2: That was that was one really great man. We miss him.

1420
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 1: He well, I mean, you know, look, I think you

1421
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 1: hate to say life experience is probably what shapes you.

1422
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 1: But his life experience shaped them right and it and

1423
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:28,639
Speaker 1: it made them. It made them where the political party

1424
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 1: was just that. Okay, that's a club I chose to join,

1425
01:15:32,400 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 1: but it's not the only club I'm going to hang

1426
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:34,240
Speaker 1: out in.

1427
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: Heaven Help Us is the name of the book.

1428
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 1: Sell Sell Sell. We've done it pretty well. I think

1429
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,760
Speaker 1: we're selling you, Jack, We're selling you.

1430
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 2: Hey. It's always great, it's always great to be with you.

1431
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 2: You're just you know, I think if people watch this,

1432
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,240
Speaker 2: they see they see you know, my friends, when they

1433
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:57,879
Speaker 2: see us, they just see the kind of the connection,

1434
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 2: the magic that whatever it is, the sparks, and it's

1435
01:16:01,360 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. So we're gonna do more.

1436
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 1: Either that or they think, wow, these two, these two

1437
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:09,920
Speaker 1: old guys. Yeah, I gets very obsessed with with their

1438
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: own sound of their own voices.

1439
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 2: Right, probably right, Probably a little truth in that too.

1440
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,559
Speaker 1: Now it's all right, are you are you so sour?

1441
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,639
Speaker 1: You've been pretty sour about college football because you haven't

1442
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 1: liked how this how what gets rewarded? Are you? Are

1443
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 1: you still kind of sour on how the system's working. Yeah,

1444
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 1: I think the system's terrible. And this is transfer portal

1445
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:31,880
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. We've just turned it into the

1446
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,080
Speaker 1: minor leagues. I mean, if you want a minor league,

1447
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,639
Speaker 1: you know, I remember talking to a football head football

1448
01:16:37,680 --> 01:16:39,600
Speaker 1: coach of one of the NFL teams, and he was

1449
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 1: at a golf course with me. He's if I've known

1450
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,200
Speaker 1: him for a long time. He campaigned for me once.

1451
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: He said, you know, John, the thing that we're missing,

1452
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 1: the baseball has a minor leagues.

1453
01:16:47,720 --> 01:16:50,560
Speaker 2: We don't, Well we now do. We now have a

1454
01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:51,480
Speaker 2: minor league.

1455
01:16:51,240 --> 01:16:52,640
Speaker 1: And they don't even have to pay for it. You know.

1456
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 1: Baseball used to complain that they used to be jealous

1457
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 1: that the NFL had college football, that they had a

1458
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:02,120
Speaker 1: minor league with having to actually spend money on their

1459
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 1: minor league versus what. And I actually think that might

1460
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 1: at this point, that might be where we're going, and

1461
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,320
Speaker 1: that the Cleveland Browns will someday spend all this money

1462
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 1: on helping Ohio State's NIL to help do player development

1463
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:21,760
Speaker 1: for Ohio State. I know that sounds crazy, but that

1464
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 1: may be where the system is headed. Well.

1465
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:26,160
Speaker 2: The one thing that's fun is it is fun to

1466
01:17:26,200 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: talk about sports because it's pretty neutral and when you

1467
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 2: have an argument there, you know you can. It's okay, It's.

1468
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: Well, and it's still the other reason that sports I

1469
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 1: think is a unifier, is it. It really is the

1470
01:17:37,760 --> 01:17:41,480
Speaker 1: one place where the meritocracy still works. Yes there's nepotism,

1471
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:45,120
Speaker 1: Yes there's a lot, but ultimately, if you've got it,

1472
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 1: you're going to make it, and if you don't got it,

1473
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:51,680
Speaker 1: you're not going to make it. It's the meritocracy.

1474
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,000
Speaker 2: Shock is a crazy time because I'm one of a

1475
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 2: handful of people I happen to really like the NBA playoffs.

1476
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 2: And and by the way, Cleveland just destroyed Miami. I

1477
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:06,880
Speaker 2: mean that was I thought that Miami would win. I

1478
01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 2: thought Miami would win a game. I mean, I knew

1479
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 2: they didn't match up.

1480
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 1: I love Evan Mobley, I think, and you know, it's interesting,

1481
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,320
Speaker 1: I'm skeptical you guys can beat Boston.

1482
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 2: I'm right. I mean, it's going to be very tough,

1483
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:21,280
Speaker 2: but but.

1484
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:24,400
Speaker 1: If you do, it'll be because Evan Mobley took that

1485
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: next level for that.

1486
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:29,479
Speaker 2: Or that guy Hunter that came from Atlanta, who's really

1487
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 2: been terrific, And can anybody beat Oklahoma City?

1488
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering, there's a part of me that thinks

1489
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 1: that this is really We're all just these are just

1490
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: the pre We're just sort of watching the Saturday pre

1491
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,160
Speaker 1: lns for Oklahoma City and Boston to face off. You know,

1492
01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean, you hate to say it, but until Cleveland

1493
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 1: beats Boston, they have to be you have to you know.

1494
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 2: One other subject we have to cover, as you heard

1495
01:18:55,880 --> 01:18:58,240
Speaker 2: when I was talking before we came on the air.

1496
01:18:58,320 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 2: So next Friday night, Yeah, me, my buddy's Metallicalica.

1497
01:19:03,160 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 1: I love it.

1498
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:10,360
Speaker 2: Heard Columbus right in Clumbus and uh uh Miley Cyrus

1499
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 2: saying with Metallica, okad, I absolutely incredible. That was What

1500
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 2: the heck is the name of that song? Uh? Nothing

1501
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:23,880
Speaker 2: really matters. Yeah, if you can hear it, and it

1502
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 2: was really great and only to be exceeded by Heart

1503
01:19:27,400 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 2: singing Stairway to Heaven with with the boys sitting up

1504
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 2: in the stands at Kennedy Center Honors. Yeah, I mean

1505
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,120
Speaker 2: check it out. Those are some really cool things to see.

1506
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: I love it. Concert recommendations, This will air before you're

1507
01:19:40,360 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: at the Metallica concert.

1508
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:46,679
Speaker 2: Oh well, and I will have enjoyed myself air before.

1509
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 1: This will air before. No, this will air before. So

1510
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:51,560
Speaker 1: this is good. Yeah, okay, if they catch the Metallica

1511
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: concert on Friday.

1512
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:54,280
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll be thinking of them.

1513
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 1: All went on there absolutely, Uh, mister Case, I appreciate it.

1514
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 1: The book is hea and help us there you go, Evan,

1515
01:20:02,439 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 1: help us. It's a good read. And it's an easy

1516
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: it's a yes, it is. It's a it's a nourishing read,

1517
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: meaning it is a good news read. And I do

1518
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 1: wish good news sold as well as bad news. But

1519
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:19,400
Speaker 1: you know another another plane lands safely at National News.

1520
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:23,799
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Chuck, thank you as soon.

1521
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 1: Well as you can see. Fasik and I have spent

1522
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 1: a lot of time together and so it's uh and

1523
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: and we both like to hear the other person talk.

1524
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:44,800
Speaker 1: So I hope you in all seriousness, I hope you

1525
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:48,840
Speaker 1: enjoyed that and and sort of see. You know, it's

1526
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:52,360
Speaker 1: interesting I've got and I go back and forth on

1527
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 1: where where the future of faith is going in America

1528
01:20:56,439 --> 01:21:00,200
Speaker 1: and and how and how much where we were our

1529
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:05,960
Speaker 1: moral compass seems to be messed up, and you know,

1530
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:09,480
Speaker 1: it seems to have coincided with with with a retreat

1531
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: from organized religion, which I myself am somebody who is

1532
01:21:14,080 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 1: a retreater. And yet I think you can have a

1533
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: moral code and a moral compass without it. But I

1534
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 1: understand those that look at what's happened in this current

1535
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:24,680
Speaker 1: environment that we're living in, and that we seem to

1536
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:28,200
Speaker 1: be so transactional financially that that's the only thing that matters.

1537
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:33,680
Speaker 1: We'll overlook character, will overlook immorality as long as we

1538
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 1: get ours. That is something that certainly people would have

1539
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 1: been other than that quote unquote prosperity gospel business. But

1540
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 1: the most people of faith that sort of see that

1541
01:21:47,200 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 1: sort of the hey we've got to have, you know,

1542
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:54,960
Speaker 1: preached that kind of of of morality. Anyway, it's I

1543
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 1: think more of a provocative conversation to have amongst yourselves

1544
01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 1: a little bit. All right, before we go, let's do

1545
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:07,759
Speaker 1: a little last Chuck ask Chuck. All right, first question,

1546
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 1: you know anything that praises me. I'm gonna end up

1547
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 1: asking your question here. This comes from James, and he says,

1548
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 1: I like your suggestion for expanding the house. If you

1549
01:22:17,040 --> 01:22:19,639
Speaker 1: follow up questions well, this diminished the impact of jerry mandarin.

1550
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: How do we have to do How do we have

1551
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 1: to go about implementing something like this? Will it require

1552
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 1: a new constitutional amendment or simply for Congress to pass

1553
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: this as a new law. So, James, the beauty of this,

1554
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:31,920
Speaker 1: and why I'm such an advocate of it, is that

1555
01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: you don't need a constitutional amendment. It is up to

1556
01:22:33,840 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: the House. It is just an act of Congress. And

1557
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:41,200
Speaker 1: this was the norm up until nineteen twenty, which is

1558
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 1: as our population expanded with every census, we didn't just

1559
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,280
Speaker 1: reapportion the congressional districts. We also made a decision to decide, okay,

1560
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:52,320
Speaker 1: what size should the districts be. How much should we

1561
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: expand the House by? Maybe we add ten new districts, fifteen,

1562
01:22:55,520 --> 01:23:00,680
Speaker 1: whatever it is. So no, that's the beauty of this gerrymandering,

1563
01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,680
Speaker 1: and it's it is. Look, you're never going to get

1564
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,439
Speaker 1: rid of gerrymandering. As long as the Constitution says state

1565
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: legislatures are essentially in charge of deciding these lines, there's

1566
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,719
Speaker 1: always going to be And I always would would caution

1567
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 1: people to get I don't think you can quote unquote

1568
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:19,559
Speaker 1: get rid of the practice and The reason I say

1569
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,760
Speaker 1: this is it because you never know when you need

1570
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:26,639
Speaker 1: to use jerry mandering in order to create more competitive districts.

1571
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 1: If say, a your state passes a referendum that says

1572
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:34,519
Speaker 1: districts should have some form of competitiveness to them as

1573
01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:37,679
Speaker 1: one of the things. Not everybody believes that congressional district

1574
01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,599
Speaker 1: should be based that way, and not all congressional districts

1575
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 1: are drawn that way. But look, I think the reason

1576
01:23:43,880 --> 01:23:46,439
Speaker 1: I'm such an advocate of this is that A it

1577
01:23:46,479 --> 01:23:49,559
Speaker 1: does not take a constitutional amendment. B. I think it

1578
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,080
Speaker 1: just minimizes the need to jerrymander. Right, if you have

1579
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:58,080
Speaker 1: these smaller four hundred thousand member communities of interest, Where Arlington,

1580
01:23:58,120 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: Texas at four hundred thousand people is a community of interest,

1581
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,120
Speaker 1: I think we can agree they get a member of Congress,

1582
01:24:03,320 --> 01:24:05,599
Speaker 1: But you wouldn't want to have the entire DFW represented

1583
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,080
Speaker 1: by one person, right, or even half the DFW area.

1584
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 1: Are they really going to represent the interest of Arlington

1585
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 1: and Fort Worth or Arlington or Fort Worth? Will they

1586
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: pick one? You see where I'm going here. So I

1587
01:24:17,080 --> 01:24:20,719
Speaker 1: think it definitely limits the need and limits the motivation

1588
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 1: of gerrymandering on that front. And then, of course, the

1589
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 1: other thing that fixes is the electoral college. Right, you

1590
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 1: double the amount of votes in the electoral college, and

1591
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 1: you make it to where the popular vote in the

1592
01:24:32,160 --> 01:24:36,320
Speaker 1: electoral college are less likely to be in conflict when

1593
01:24:36,360 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: all the numbers are set in. So, James, I hope

1594
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:45,080
Speaker 1: I've made you now not just a supporter of the idea,

1595
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 1: but now an advocate. Go out there and evangelize about this.

1596
01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 1: Uncap the house. Uncap the House, and we start solving

1597
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:57,240
Speaker 1: some of our polarization problems in this country. Okay, next

1598
01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:01,559
Speaker 1: question comes from Eric C. Does it How does an

1599
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 1: individual or an entity get the label get to label

1600
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 1: itself as non partisan? I'm thinking of advocacy groups or

1601
01:25:07,320 --> 01:25:10,240
Speaker 1: think tanks, even government entities, etc. I saw an individual

1602
01:25:10,240 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 1: sitting for an interview on what we'll call an unnamed

1603
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 1: news in a program, and the individual was from an

1604
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:16,839
Speaker 1: advocacy group, which the news program label is non partisan,

1605
01:25:17,040 --> 01:25:20,120
Speaker 1: and it struck me as a potentially subjective label as

1606
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 1: Another example is in the Congressional Budget Office considered non partisan.

1607
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 1: What makes it so? Is it simply because its staff

1608
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 1: is not hired by anyone acting on behalf of either

1609
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:30,439
Speaker 1: of the major political parties. Appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for

1610
01:25:30,479 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 1: the work on the podcast. An interesting guest, ps, how

1611
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 1: about some love for the Capitals. Go Caps? Yes, I

1612
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 1: am taping on Wednesday evening May seventh, bummed that the

1613
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:44,360
Speaker 1: Caps are down one oh to Normally a team that

1614
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:47,440
Speaker 1: I would be rooting for any team who's the Hurricanes,

1615
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:49,680
Speaker 1: but not the Carolina Hurricanes. I don't root for any

1616
01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:52,920
Speaker 1: Carolina Hurricanes. All my Hurricanes are in Miami, not even

1617
01:25:52,960 --> 01:25:55,599
Speaker 1: my friends in Tulsa and the Golden Hurricane. No, we

1618
01:25:55,640 --> 01:25:58,400
Speaker 1: only root for the Miami Hurricanes. So we shall see,

1619
01:25:58,479 --> 01:26:01,360
Speaker 1: let's go. I just I have a lot of confidence

1620
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,360
Speaker 1: that this Caps team is going to somehow. It just

1621
01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:07,640
Speaker 1: feels like there's a there's a narrative here with Ovechkin.

1622
01:26:07,720 --> 01:26:11,080
Speaker 1: He breaks the record sort of one last hurrah, you know,

1623
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: kind of like Brady and his Tampa Super Bowl that

1624
01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 1: maybe we get that in one more Stanley Cup from Ovechkin.

1625
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 1: But you know, you bring up a good point about nonpartisan,

1626
01:26:20,000 --> 01:26:22,880
Speaker 1: bipartisan and all that stuff. I don't know if the

1627
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 1: word nonpartisan I you know, I guess the one place

1628
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 1: that I've been comfortable having somebody label themselves as nonpartisan

1629
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:35,680
Speaker 1: is active members of the military because they have to

1630
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,560
Speaker 1: be nonpartisan, right, they have to follow the commander, the

1631
01:26:38,840 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 1: orders the commander in chief, no matter who the commander

1632
01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:44,240
Speaker 1: in chief is. So I think there's do you behave

1633
01:26:44,280 --> 01:26:47,080
Speaker 1: in a nonpartisan way. But everybody is born with I

1634
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 1: always say, inherent bias. I always checked my pulse. Okay, yeah,

1635
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:54,759
Speaker 1: I'm a human being. Humans are born with original bias,

1636
01:26:55,080 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: is what I like to call it, and meaning, you

1637
01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 1: know you everybody has an ideology and a partisanship that's

1638
01:27:04,360 --> 01:27:07,679
Speaker 1: has formed as much by where you're born, who you're

1639
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 1: born too, when you were born, the circumstances of your childhood.

1640
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 1: All of that is shaping so it's it shapes you.

1641
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:18,400
Speaker 1: And so there's bias. And where there's bias, there's going

1642
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:21,400
Speaker 1: to be some form of partisanship. So I don't think

1643
01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 1: I think there's I think I think these government entities

1644
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:27,719
Speaker 1: Congressional Budget Office, I would label as bipartisan because essentially

1645
01:27:28,240 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 1: they are. It's a staff that has been that has

1646
01:27:31,880 --> 01:27:34,960
Speaker 1: been hired by people appointed by both parties, right, So

1647
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,160
Speaker 1: that to me is by privacy. The Federal Reserve, to me,

1648
01:27:38,240 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 1: is bipartisan. So I think bipartisan is a better version

1649
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:47,160
Speaker 1: of that, I think nonpartisan. I think you're not wrong.

1650
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: It's not just subjective. I just think that you know,

1651
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:56,600
Speaker 1: if you know, if your nonpartisan, a partisan on the

1652
01:27:56,680 --> 01:28:00,520
Speaker 1: left or right might view you as a as a

1653
01:28:00,520 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 1: as an opponent anyway, because you're not for their side

1654
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: of things. You might if you're using you're not you're

1655
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,880
Speaker 1: if you're using the descriptor of nonpartisan as a way

1656
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:13,200
Speaker 1: to avoid taking a stand on something. Are are you

1657
01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 1: actually being nonpartisan? Or are you are you being sort

1658
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:20,160
Speaker 1: of a silent partisan if you will by not by

1659
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 1: not taking a stance on something. So I think it's

1660
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:27,160
Speaker 1: a fair point, and I think that I don't think

1661
01:28:27,280 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 1: anybody is if the only entities that I think in

1662
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:34,559
Speaker 1: American institutions that are probably best to be described as

1663
01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,760
Speaker 1: nonpartisan or is the military. Look I've always said in

1664
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,759
Speaker 1: you know, there's that ridiculous phrase that that Rodger Ales

1665
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:43,400
Speaker 1: and Fox came up with fair and balanced. Well, I

1666
01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 1: don't believe that the two. I actually think that phrase

1667
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:48,679
Speaker 1: is in conflict. Right, you can't balance fairness. You're either

1668
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:53,360
Speaker 1: fair or you're balanced. And balance is also a very

1669
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 1: subjective word. So I think the best you know, the

1670
01:28:56,439 --> 01:28:59,280
Speaker 1: term I've always trived for journalistically is fairness. I'm going

1671
01:28:59,360 --> 01:29:01,960
Speaker 1: to be fair but fair. If I could be described

1672
01:29:01,960 --> 01:29:05,479
Speaker 1: that way any interview that way, tough but fair, I would.

1673
01:29:06,120 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 1: And I think fairness doesn't always mean you're going to

1674
01:29:08,960 --> 01:29:13,360
Speaker 1: like all the questions, but they're fair questions to be asked.

1675
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:14,559
Speaker 2: All right.

1676
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:17,680
Speaker 1: Last question comes from Dell. I'm desperate for someone to

1677
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:19,720
Speaker 1: answer a question for me. It might sound basic, but

1678
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,599
Speaker 1: I feel like it is basic. It's the very foundation

1679
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:24,439
Speaker 1: of much of the political talk around the country. So

1680
01:29:24,479 --> 01:29:27,240
Speaker 1: when is this looming crisis of debt going to destroy us?

1681
01:29:27,439 --> 01:29:29,559
Speaker 1: Is there a number that triggers this? I just don't

1682
01:29:29,600 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 1: understand how on a macro level the debt of a

1683
01:29:31,360 --> 01:29:34,200
Speaker 1: country is detrimental, especially that of the US. Also, how

1684
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 1: will a potential catastrophe caused by the debt affect the

1685
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 1: average person? I mean higher prices. We already see that now,

1686
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 1: from the pandemic to tariffs. So I was that any different?

1687
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm just really confused about the boogeyman I've heard about

1688
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:46,920
Speaker 1: for forty eight years. It feels like the boy who

1689
01:29:46,920 --> 01:29:49,679
Speaker 1: cried Wolf. Look, I tend to agree with you, right,

1690
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:53,879
Speaker 1: and the whole what we thought was debt to GDP

1691
01:29:54,080 --> 01:29:57,120
Speaker 1: ratio that we could withstand. Turns out it was much higher,

1692
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:00,160
Speaker 1: which many economists had said. As long as we're the

1693
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:02,799
Speaker 1: reserve currency of the world, as long as the dollar

1694
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:04,800
Speaker 1: is a safe haven, ooh, whoops, is it a safe

1695
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:11,200
Speaker 1: haven anymore? Our debt won't matter until it does. So

1696
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:17,400
Speaker 1: the problem is if you do policies, I think, if

1697
01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:21,360
Speaker 1: we continue to pursue the policies, these tariff policies, which

1698
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: then sort of send a message to the world that

1699
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 1: maybe we're not the free trade haven of the world,

1700
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:32,160
Speaker 1: that we're not the safe haven of financial markets. If

1701
01:30:32,200 --> 01:30:34,960
Speaker 1: people start to question, you know, what gives us the

1702
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:37,680
Speaker 1: safe haven status is that we have a rule of

1703
01:30:37,800 --> 01:30:43,959
Speaker 1: law that is pretty pretty good that if we're suddenly

1704
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:48,880
Speaker 1: not the reserve currency, then are debt holders. Then all

1705
01:30:48,880 --> 01:30:50,720
Speaker 1: of a sudden, then you'd have interest rate hikes and

1706
01:30:50,760 --> 01:30:55,080
Speaker 1: then this could this would just it would have catastrophic effects, right,

1707
01:30:55,120 --> 01:30:57,120
Speaker 1: And this is what happened in Europe when there was

1708
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:00,519
Speaker 1: a debt crisis with the Greeks, and there's been other

1709
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:02,720
Speaker 1: countries where they've had that. But the other countries that

1710
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 1: have had these debt crises weren't reserve currencies and didn't

1711
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:09,600
Speaker 1: sort of have our our our economic standing that we

1712
01:31:09,680 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 1: do here. So look, I tend to think that we

1713
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:18,680
Speaker 1: do overdo the debt issue, and it is sort of

1714
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:21,719
Speaker 1: a convenient way to try to to because the number

1715
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:25,200
Speaker 1: sounds so fantastical, right, and that debt clock is everything,

1716
01:31:26,800 --> 01:31:29,320
Speaker 1: But you know not some of that debt is bad debt.

1717
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:32,320
Speaker 1: But some of that debt is you know, debt that

1718
01:31:32,760 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 1: just about every fortune five hundred company would call good debt. Right,

1719
01:31:36,640 --> 01:31:39,439
Speaker 1: it's debt. You're borrowing money today to finance something for

1720
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 1: economic empowerment tomorrow. Right, You're borrowing money today to build

1721
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:47,960
Speaker 1: housing which will only create new tax payers tomorrow. Right.

1722
01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:51,720
Speaker 1: So I think we we in the media do a

1723
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:57,280
Speaker 1: poor job of explaining the debt and what it really means,

1724
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,400
Speaker 1: and which which debt is good debt, in which debt

1725
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:05,120
Speaker 1: is bad debt. But this becomes more of an acute

1726
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:08,720
Speaker 1: issue if our standing is the reserve car, if we

1727
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: suddenly have sovereign funds all over the world, the side

1728
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:14,519
Speaker 1: that the US dollar is not a safe haven, that

1729
01:32:14,680 --> 01:32:16,760
Speaker 1: US treasuries are not a safe haven, and once they

1730
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 1: don't become a safe haven, well then you sort of

1731
01:32:19,200 --> 01:32:24,400
Speaker 1: have runaway interest rates and then that that that creates

1732
01:32:24,600 --> 01:32:28,360
Speaker 1: a catastrophe. But guess what if the if the debt

1733
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:31,559
Speaker 1: ever becomes a problem for America, the whole globes in trouble. Right,

1734
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 1: you want to talk about a contagion issue, right, it would?

1735
01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:37,920
Speaker 1: It would. And in some ways, because you want to

1736
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:40,160
Speaker 1: talk about too big to fail, the United States is

1737
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:44,400
Speaker 1: too big to fail. So in some ways it's probably

1738
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:48,880
Speaker 1: why our debt's never going to be ultimately as as

1739
01:32:48,960 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 1: catastrophic a problem as some as some might argue. But

1740
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:55,400
Speaker 1: you know what, my answer to that question is likely

1741
01:32:55,439 --> 01:32:58,519
Speaker 1: to trigger some fun responses, and I would love to

1742
01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:01,360
Speaker 1: hear from you. Tell me why I'm wrong on this one.

1743
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:04,679
Speaker 1: Explain to me how our debt as it currently stands

1744
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 1: could be as catastrophic as some of you think. I

1745
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:10,840
Speaker 1: would love to hear from you that. And remember any

1746
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:13,679
Speaker 1: question you have here, ask Chuck at the Chuck podcast

1747
01:33:13,760 --> 01:33:17,000
Speaker 1: dot com, drop comment and the YouTube, or drop comment

1748
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:19,839
Speaker 1: in any of the podcast feeds or Instagram feed, TikTok,

1749
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,360
Speaker 1: all of those places. We comb all of them for

1750
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:26,839
Speaker 1: potential questions, and we're only going to ask the relevant questions,

1751
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:29,559
Speaker 1: the good questions. But I would love to hear from

1752
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 1: you on some contrarian answers on the debt, but Dell,

1753
01:33:34,160 --> 01:33:36,640
Speaker 1: I appreciate that question, and I appreciate all of you

1754
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 1: for sticking around, for listening and until I upload again