WEBVTT - A History of Par

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<v Speaker 1>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When

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<v Speaker 1>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I find my ball in a bride egg

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<v Speaker 2>Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg,

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<v Speaker 2>bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of

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<v Speaker 2>the hump. Welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison,

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<v Speaker 2>and today we're talking about the history of par. That's right,

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<v Speaker 2>the history of par. The idea of par is absolutely

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<v Speaker 2>pervasive in golf. It's how we keep track of scores

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<v Speaker 2>and a golf tournament score to par. It's how we

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<v Speaker 2>judge the quality of a player's performance. It's how we

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<v Speaker 2>categorize holes par three, par four, par five. It's how

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<v Speaker 2>we categorize courses too par seventy and above. That's a

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<v Speaker 2>full regulation course, par sixty nine and below. That's something else.

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<v Speaker 2>It's how we assess the difficulty of a golf course,

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<v Speaker 2>even the worthiness of certain courses to host championships. If

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<v Speaker 2>elite players score too far under par, the course is

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<v Speaker 2>deemed not hard enough. Part dominates our thinking about golfer

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<v Speaker 2>performance in golf course architecture to a degree that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't even notice it most of the time. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>water we swim in. And yet for most of golf history,

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<v Speaker 2>par did not exist, certainly not in its current form,

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<v Speaker 2>where each hole has a designated PAR and birdies and

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<v Speaker 2>bogies are calculated in relation to that number. That idea

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<v Speaker 2>of par in the grand sweep of the game's history

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<v Speaker 2>is relatively new. So on today's episode, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about where the idea of par came from, when

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<v Speaker 2>and why it emerged, and we'll also talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>effect that the idea of par has had on the game,

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<v Speaker 2>and effect that, in my opinion, has not been super positive.

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<v Speaker 2>My guest is the golf historian Stephen Procter. Stephen is

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<v Speaker 2>the author of the book's Monarch of the Green, a

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<v Speaker 2>biography of young Tom Morris, and The Long Golden Afternoon,

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<v Speaker 2>an account of golf's rise in the decades before World

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<v Speaker 2>War One. He's also the co host of the new podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>The Duffer's Literary Companion. All right, let's get to it.

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<v Speaker 2>After this break, you'll hear from Stephen Proctor on the

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<v Speaker 2>history of par. This episode of the Friday Podcast is

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<v Speaker 2>All right, back to the episode. Stephen Procter, Welcome back

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<v Speaker 2>to the podcast. How you doing.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing great, Garrett, Thank you for having me back.

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<v Speaker 3>Interesting subject today, look forward to talking about it.

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<v Speaker 2>I've been curious about this topic for a while. You're

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<v Speaker 2>the only other person I know who is equally preoccupied

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<v Speaker 2>with it. We've talked about it on a few occasions.

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<v Speaker 2>You certainly have a much better grounding in the actual

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<v Speaker 2>history of the concept of par than I do. But

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like we're sort of out on an island

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<v Speaker 2>with researching this subject because I haven't seen an awful

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<v Speaker 2>lot on it. So why did you get interested in

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<v Speaker 2>the history of par? How did this come about for you?

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<v Speaker 3>It came about for me when I was working on

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<v Speaker 3>my first book about young Tom Morris, because I became

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<v Speaker 3>aware in doing the research on that of an article

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<v Speaker 3>that had been written just before Tommy claims the championship

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<v Speaker 3>belt in eighteen seventy. So he's won two opens in

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<v Speaker 3>a row. He's you know, training hard for the third Open,

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<v Speaker 3>knowing that if he wins it, he's gonna claim the belt.

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<v Speaker 3>And a man named Alexander Doleman, writing for one of

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<v Speaker 3>the golf publications in Scotland, did an article with two

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<v Speaker 3>other golfers, davey Strath, Tommy's best friend in closest rival,

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<v Speaker 3>and Jamie Anderson, a man would go on to win

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<v Speaker 3>three opens and was also quite a good friend to

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<v Speaker 3>Tommy's and caddied for him in a lot of his

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<v Speaker 3>key matches against Davy and other people. He asked Alexander Dolman,

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<v Speaker 3>ask both of them what did they think represented perfect

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<v Speaker 3>golf at twelve hole course at Prestwick where the opens

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<v Speaker 3>were contested in the early years, and they assigned a

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<v Speaker 3>number to each hole. And in the course of trying

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<v Speaker 3>to explain to the readers what he meant, because you

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<v Speaker 3>need to keep in mind, this is the very first

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<v Speaker 3>time this idea of something approaching par had you know,

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<v Speaker 3>had been brought up because of some other history that

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<v Speaker 3>we should go back to in a minute. But in

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<v Speaker 3>any case, he used a term from the stock market

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<v Speaker 3>for the right price for the share of stock, the

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<v Speaker 3>par price for a share of stock. And so that's

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<v Speaker 3>the first time the words gets used in the context

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<v Speaker 3>of what should be scored on any given hole. In

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<v Speaker 3>eighteen seventy, you know, for all the hundreds of years

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<v Speaker 3>of golf before that, golf starts in about fourteen hundred.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's fair to say because by fourteen fifty

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<v Speaker 3>seven the king has issued an edict banning it. So

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<v Speaker 3>you figure it has to have been played at least

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<v Speaker 3>fifty years to be broad enough to be banned. That's

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<v Speaker 3>a reasonable start, and it might be earlier, but you

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<v Speaker 3>don't have any written evidence before fourteen fifty seven.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you go from fourteen fifty.

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<v Speaker 3>Seven, you know on up to eighteen seventy, well, there

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<v Speaker 3>are a lot of years in there. There are centuries

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<v Speaker 3>in there, and you know, no one ever thought of

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<v Speaker 3>this idea of a whole being a certain score you

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<v Speaker 3>should make, mostly because golf was almost exclusively a match

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<v Speaker 3>play game.

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<v Speaker 1>In that age.

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<v Speaker 3>Pretty much every golfer would play stroke play twice a

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<v Speaker 3>year for the Spring Medal and the Autumn Metal, and

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<v Speaker 3>every other time they would be playing a match and

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<v Speaker 3>so there was no motive to assign a score to

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<v Speaker 3>a whole. It was just you made five, I made six,

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<v Speaker 3>I win. It doesn't It didn't matter, and it was

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<v Speaker 3>not part of the thinking. But you know, when young

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<v Speaker 3>Tommy comes along and he starts putting up scores that

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<v Speaker 3>are absurd scores, you know, then it gets people naturally

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<v Speaker 3>the thinking about the idea of what you should score

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<v Speaker 3>on a hole, or what represents brilliants. You know. I

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<v Speaker 3>think Dolman's attempt in the article was to show how

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<v Speaker 3>incredibly brilliant Tommy was playing, you know, all the years

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<v Speaker 3>that led up to it, because in the previous years

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<v Speaker 3>he'd set records for the twelve holes, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the record that he had set at that time, fifty one,

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<v Speaker 3>turned out to be two strokes higher than what they

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<v Speaker 3>thought of his perfect golf, only indicating to you that

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<v Speaker 3>they never had any idea that anybody was going to

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<v Speaker 3>go out and.

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<v Speaker 1>Play perfect golf.

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<v Speaker 3>It was it was a mythical ideal they were discussing.

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<v Speaker 2>All that is so fascinating. You know, first of all,

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<v Speaker 2>we have these hundreds of years that elapse with golf

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<v Speaker 2>being played and par not being a factor. You mentioned

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<v Speaker 2>that One big reason for that is because match play

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<v Speaker 2>is the dominant form.

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<v Speaker 3>Of golf, foursomes was even bigger. So most of the

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<v Speaker 3>time when you were playing a match play, you were

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<v Speaker 3>playing alternate shot with two other men against two other men,

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<v Speaker 3>both of you playing a single ball, so that even

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<v Speaker 3>you can see how that would diminish further this idea

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<v Speaker 3>of a par score because you're not making any score.

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<v Speaker 3>It's you and your partner making some score and the

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<v Speaker 3>only thing that matters is that it be a lower

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<v Speaker 3>one than the person's that you're playing against. And so

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<v Speaker 3>there's just there was no it was not part of

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<v Speaker 3>the thinking about golf. And you know, even when you're

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<v Speaker 3>reading early coverage of metal tournaments, there's not really an

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<v Speaker 3>emphasis on the score per se. I mean, it's written

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<v Speaker 3>down so and so won with this number, but you

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<v Speaker 3>never see somebody comparing it to last year's number, or

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<v Speaker 3>you know, the number of next year. It's only when

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<v Speaker 3>someone does something so extraordinary, like at one point Gilbert

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<v Speaker 3>Mitchell Innis shoots eighty eight in a medal at Saint Andrews,

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<v Speaker 3>when scores were usually in the nineties and so high nineties.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of the time for gentlemen golfers that age,

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<v Speaker 3>and so that would be noted because it was a

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<v Speaker 3>record no one had ever done it. But most of

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<v Speaker 3>the time the score hardly gets you know, gets mentioned.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's much more important who was attending, which men played,

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<v Speaker 3>which royalty was on hand to watch. All of that

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<v Speaker 3>was vastly more important than what the score anyone posted.

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<v Speaker 2>It was the Parks versus the Morrises, and individual performance

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't necessarily a big subject. But when young Tom Morris

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<v Speaker 2>comes along the idea of individual brilliance and golf starts

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<v Speaker 2>to take on a little more currency, which is maybe

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<v Speaker 2>I think you're implying one of the first steps toward

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<v Speaker 2>an idea of par because if you want to quantify

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<v Speaker 2>individual brilliance, then something like parr is almost necessary to

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<v Speaker 2>think that through. Is that sort of what we're implying.

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<v Speaker 3>That is completely true, Gret, You're exactly right. And the

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<v Speaker 3>other thing that happens is that, you know, people start

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<v Speaker 3>to get more interested in stroke play gradually, and in

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<v Speaker 3>particular the English as soon as golf moved into England,

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<v Speaker 3>and now we're talking the very first what you would

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<v Speaker 3>call truly English course is built in eighteen sixty four

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<v Speaker 3>at Royal North Devon, and in five years after that,

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<v Speaker 3>hoy Lake where we just had the open is built

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<v Speaker 3>and opens up. So the English immediately preferred stroke play

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<v Speaker 3>to match play. And I think it's kind of like

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<v Speaker 3>it's an interesting mindset difference. You know that wou would

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<v Speaker 3>continue and even become more so in America. But early

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<v Speaker 3>in the time when the English are starting to play,

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<v Speaker 3>they they will keep their score in a match. Okay,

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<v Speaker 3>they're playing a match, but they'll put everything out and

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<v Speaker 3>they'll be writing their numbers down on a card, which

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<v Speaker 3>makes Scotsmen lose their minds, like why are you doing this?

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<v Speaker 3>Why are you writing down your score? It's a match,

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<v Speaker 3>it doesn't matter, you know. But the English from the

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<v Speaker 3>very beginning liked stroke play, and it was the English

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<v Speaker 3>who started creating competitions built around the idea of a

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<v Speaker 3>number of strokes rather than a straight up match against

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<v Speaker 3>another human.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So eighteen seventy this article by Alexander Dolman

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<v Speaker 2>comes out which essentially invents the word par or applies

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<v Speaker 2>the word par to this context, perhaps for the first

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<v Speaker 2>time now in the decades after that, it wasn't as

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<v Speaker 2>though par immediately emerged in its modern form. There were,

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<v Speaker 2>as I understand it, a number of intermediary concepts or

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<v Speaker 2>different types of ways of understanding individual performance in relation

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<v Speaker 2>to a standard. So, you know, could you describe some

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<v Speaker 2>of those for me? What were people talking about when

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<v Speaker 2>they talked about something like par.

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<v Speaker 3>The way people conceived of golf in those days between

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<v Speaker 3>Tommy and let's say the turn of the century was

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<v Speaker 3>with this. There was a notion about level fours because

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<v Speaker 3>you know, people didn't assign strokes to holes until nineteen eleven.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll get to that in a little bit.

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<v Speaker 3>But they had this idea that a hole was a

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<v Speaker 3>one shot or a two shotter or a three shotter.

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<v Speaker 3>How many shots would a reasonable player require to reach

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<v Speaker 3>the green? And then they would just assume two putts

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<v Speaker 3>would be added on by good players. A lot of

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<v Speaker 3>players get three putts, so you know, then they they

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<v Speaker 3>developed because of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Obviously, if you.

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<v Speaker 3>Go around, and they always played in increments of eighteen

0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:09.800
<v Speaker 3>even when they were in eighteen hole courses. So for instance,

0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 3>Preswick is a twelve hole course, but if you played

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.440
<v Speaker 3>in a tournament, you played at three times around to

0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 3>get thirty six or two eighteens.

0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 1>As we think of eighteens.

0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:19.800
<v Speaker 3>Now, so people you know in St Andrew's was eighteen

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 3>holes and that had you know, was evolving into a standard.

0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 3>Not many courses were eighteen holes, but they wanted to

0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 3>be eighteen holes, and so the mindset was thinking about

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.400
<v Speaker 3>eighteen holes. And if you think about a mix of

0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 3>one shotters, two shoters and three shoters over eighteen holes,

0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.559
<v Speaker 3>you can see how they would evolve to a concept

0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.480
<v Speaker 3>they called level fours. Brilliant golf was to go around

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:43.520
<v Speaker 3>in level fours. And by brilliant I mean exactly that

0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 3>absolutely first class, very rarely achieved golf would be level fours,

0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:52.760
<v Speaker 3>almost mythical. So you know, if you shot level fours

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 3>for eighteen holes, obviously shot seventy two, and that sort

0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.120
<v Speaker 3>of is you can see where these concepts are beginning

0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:01.120
<v Speaker 3>to fold into each other. But most of the early

0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.120
<v Speaker 3>tournaments they would report and so and show it was

0:14:04.160 --> 0:14:07.160
<v Speaker 3>six over fours, you know, so meaning that they shot

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.600
<v Speaker 3>seventy eight or you know, if it was a par

0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:11.320
<v Speaker 3>seventy two.

0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.240
<v Speaker 1>So that was the way they.

0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.120
<v Speaker 3>Thought about it, was getting around the course in level fours.

0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 2>And then there was a concept of bogie golf as well, right.

0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Yes, and this is something that English introduced.

0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.640
<v Speaker 3>In eighteen ninety one, a man named Hugh Rothdam invented

0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 3>a competition at Coventry Country Club that came to be

0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:34.640
<v Speaker 3>known as the bogie Competition. So the idea was, you know,

0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 3>the Scots hated this so much it's hard. It's hard

0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.520
<v Speaker 3>to put to extribe how much they hated it. In fact,

0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.480
<v Speaker 3>for many, many years, the Royal and ancient refused to

0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 3>write any rules for a bogie competition.

0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:48.160
<v Speaker 1>They didn't want any part of this.

0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.040
<v Speaker 2>But history repeats itself too. They probably have hated a

0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:55.280
<v Speaker 2>number of innovations out of England and then the US

0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:56.160
<v Speaker 2>later on.

0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 1>Yes, no, that is true.

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:02.040
<v Speaker 3>They have been most interested intending their own garden. But

0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:06.880
<v Speaker 3>in any case, this competition would you everybody is essentially

0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 3>playing a match against the course, So you're playing against

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 3>what they called originally the ground score of the course.

0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.400
<v Speaker 3>So we assigned a target score to every hole, and

0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.480
<v Speaker 3>if you beat the target score, you won the hole.

0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:21.280
<v Speaker 1>If you didn't, you lost the hole.

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.040
<v Speaker 3>So the person who this came to be known as

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:28.160
<v Speaker 3>the bogie score over time, because there was a very

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.560
<v Speaker 3>popular song. There's always been the notion of the bogey

0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.320
<v Speaker 3>man in Scotland and England, and there was a very

0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.680
<v Speaker 3>popular song then called Hush Hush, he comes to Bogeyman.

0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:41.360
<v Speaker 3>And so then gradually somebody assigned it a rank and

0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 3>it became known as Colonel Boge. So there was this

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 3>big figure. You're playing against Colonel Bogie in a match,

0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.240
<v Speaker 3>and the person who beats Colonel Bogee by the most

0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 3>holes wins the match.

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 1>That's how they did it, and.

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.360
<v Speaker 3>So you can see that in the necessity of assigning

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.880
<v Speaker 3>a score to the hole, you're now approaching something like

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.880
<v Speaker 3>very like what we think of his par But what's

0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:04.600
<v Speaker 3>interesting to understand, Garrett, is when they were assigning a

0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.840
<v Speaker 3>bogie score to a hole, they weren't assigning it as

0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.240
<v Speaker 3>what you would think a professional player would make on

0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:13.400
<v Speaker 3>this hole. They were thinking of it as what would

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 3>a good solid club player, like a low handicapped man,

0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.960
<v Speaker 3>not necessarily even a scratch person be able to make

0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:22.640
<v Speaker 3>on this hole, or should make. And that became the

0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.360
<v Speaker 3>bogie score, what you should make if you're a decent player.

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 3>And obviously a lot of not very decent players played

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.360
<v Speaker 3>golf then as they do now, and so people would

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 3>be way over the bogie score sometimes, and you know,

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 3>really great players might be under it. But so it

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.000
<v Speaker 3>wasn't exactly what we think of as par but it

0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.040
<v Speaker 3>was creeping quite close to it, and scores assigned to

0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.880
<v Speaker 3>holes obviously is closer.

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.400
<v Speaker 2>Still, it seems to me that there are two big

0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.600
<v Speaker 2>innovations here with the bogey competition, one of which you

0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:57.480
<v Speaker 2>just named, which is that individual holes are being assigned

0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.720
<v Speaker 2>a certain number that's very different from level fours, right,

0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.040
<v Speaker 2>And so now we're getting down to the granular level

0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.439
<v Speaker 2>of the hole and saying this hole should be played

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 2>in this number of strokes. And then the other thing

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 2>is not not following the concept of ideal or perfect golf.

0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.880
<v Speaker 2>This is more like what a player might be expected

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.919
<v Speaker 2>to shoot, not in this case necessarily a scratch or

0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.960
<v Speaker 2>professional or elite player, but a normal player. This is

0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:33.840
<v Speaker 2>not a not an abstract concept of perfect golf that

0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.960
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about. This is more grounded. And so that

0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.679
<v Speaker 2>those two things strike me as very distinct moves toward

0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.760
<v Speaker 2>a modern notion of par no.

0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:48.680
<v Speaker 3>And this is the time, you know, you got to

0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 3>keep in mind, in the eighteen nineties golf is absolutely

0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.359
<v Speaker 3>exploding in England. You know, you get to periods of

0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.280
<v Speaker 3>time in the eighteen ninety four ninety five, where one

0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.240
<v Speaker 3>golf course is being built every week in England, and

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.720
<v Speaker 3>so the game's really growing super fast. More and more

0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:08.240
<v Speaker 3>and more players are getting into it, and of course

0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:10.520
<v Speaker 3>women are also starting to take to the game in

0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:11.959
<v Speaker 3>great numbers.

0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.960
<v Speaker 1>And it's the women.

0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.320
<v Speaker 3>Who actually end up taking the next big step along

0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:22.679
<v Speaker 3>the road to assign pars to individual holes. And I

0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:25.560
<v Speaker 3>think that's one thing that's not quite as well known

0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 3>in history as it should be, really the contribution that

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.600
<v Speaker 3>women have made to the organization of the game.

0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.000
<v Speaker 2>And what is that contribution in this particular case, how

0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 2>did women players contribute to the concept of par.

0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.679
<v Speaker 3>In eighteen ninety three, a bunch of women's golf clubs

0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.600
<v Speaker 3>got together to form the Ladies Golf Union. You know,

0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.640
<v Speaker 3>at this very same time there's a huge argument going

0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:53.520
<v Speaker 3>on in the men's game about.

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:54.800
<v Speaker 1>Who is in control of this game.

0:18:55.480 --> 0:19:00.240
<v Speaker 3>Certain Englishmen like doctor William Laidlaw Purvis felt like somebody

0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.640
<v Speaker 3>in London should take over this game in a way

0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 3>that you know, soccer and tennis have been sort of circular,

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, focused in London, and of course, but the

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.760
<v Speaker 3>majority of golfers, I think felt that the Royal and

0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 3>Ancient should be in charge of the game. But the

0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:15.679
<v Speaker 3>Royal and Ancient really wasn't all that interested in being

0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 3>in charge of the game. They had, you know, begun

0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.199
<v Speaker 3>to take on some responsibilities, like they had taken on

0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:23.760
<v Speaker 3>responsibility for the Amateur Championship. You could write to them

0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:27.200
<v Speaker 3>and ask for a ruling about a question of the rules,

0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.040
<v Speaker 3>but that was not official. That was their opinion. And

0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:32.880
<v Speaker 3>of course most people used what they called the Saint

0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.400
<v Speaker 3>Andrews rules. They got them from the Saint Andrews Golf

0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.200
<v Speaker 3>who had essentially copied him from the Leath Golf Society,

0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:42.880
<v Speaker 3>and so there wasn't any organizational structure in the men's game.

0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.280
<v Speaker 1>Purvis couldn't get anybody.

0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:47.119
<v Speaker 3>Couldn't get any traction in the men's game because he

0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.560
<v Speaker 3>was a bit of a difficult man, and you know,

0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.280
<v Speaker 3>he mostly turned off all the people whose help he needed,

0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:56.600
<v Speaker 3>to be honest, and I think Bob Crosby would probably back.

0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Me up on that.

0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:00.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love these stories about Leila Purvis. It was

0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 2>apparently just a pain in the neck.

0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 3>He was a handful in three quarters and if you

0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:07.240
<v Speaker 3>read the Royal Wimbledon history, you know he's one of

0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 3>the key movers there, and they have some rather unpleasant

0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:11.240
<v Speaker 3>things to say about him in their own history. But

0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, he saw an opportunity with the women's game,

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 3>and it was Purvios, Harry Everard, a writer, and a

0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:22.359
<v Speaker 3>few others who helped the helped found the Ladies Golf Union,

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:24.520
<v Speaker 3>and through the Ladies Golf Union, Purvis set out to

0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 3>accomplish many of the things he wanted to accomplish in

0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 3>the men's game but could not accomplish, the first one

0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.120
<v Speaker 3>being the formation of a union. Ultimately, the Rules Committee

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:35.280
<v Speaker 3>was formed at Saint Andrews in eighteen ninety seven, and

0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.360
<v Speaker 3>all that was sorted out four years down the road.

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:39.159
<v Speaker 3>But at eighteen ninety three the women that this and

0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.800
<v Speaker 3>they had three goals. One is to host a national championship.

0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.000
<v Speaker 3>The two is to create a handicapping system, and this

0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:46.840
<v Speaker 3>is the key one that I wanted to talk about.

0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 3>And then also to just organize the game for women

0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 3>around the nation and promote the game. So they set

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 3>out with Purvis on the creation of a handicapping system,

0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 3>and I think it was took three or four years

0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:01.520
<v Speaker 3>for it to be perfected. Got the dates down just yet.

0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:05.359
<v Speaker 3>But let's say by eighteen ninety seven it's perfected. And

0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.920
<v Speaker 3>what that involved was the assigning.

0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:08.439
<v Speaker 1>Of a scratch score.

0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:11.320
<v Speaker 3>Now a scratch score being the score a scratch player

0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:14.640
<v Speaker 3>should make, and you know, that evolved into the concept

0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.879
<v Speaker 3>of the standard scratch score that you see now on

0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:21.040
<v Speaker 3>all British scorecards. And basically, you can't really have a

0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:24.439
<v Speaker 3>handicapping system if you don't have a means of assigning pars,

0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, numbers to holes in a more refined way

0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 3>than the Bogey competition, because one course needs to relate

0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.199
<v Speaker 3>to another course. You know, you need to have a

0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.320
<v Speaker 3>handicap needs to be able to travel from live them

0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.680
<v Speaker 3>in Saint Anne's to Saint Andrew's or to Royal Saint

0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.440
<v Speaker 3>George's to wherever the game was played, and so there

0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:43.800
<v Speaker 3>needed to be more precision in the assigning of the

0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:47.040
<v Speaker 3>score as opposed to a competition at one club where

0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.520
<v Speaker 3>you're playing against Colonel Bogey, if you understand what I mean.

0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:52.480
<v Speaker 3>And so this is when things really start to become

0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.280
<v Speaker 3>very precise as to the score of holes. And of

0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 3>course not right away, but the men, you know, the

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.399
<v Speaker 3>men were very slow and adjusting to the reality of

0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.120
<v Speaker 3>this handicapping. The system that the women had put up

0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 3>in part, I think just because of the attitude men

0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:12.600
<v Speaker 3>had toward women in that age, you know, very unfortunate,

0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:16.320
<v Speaker 3>and so they were slow and on the uptake. But

0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:18.680
<v Speaker 3>then eventually they came up with the system nearly identical.

0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 3>And you know, once the handicapping systems were in place,

0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.800
<v Speaker 3>you were really moving toward a tremendous formalization of par

0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.160
<v Speaker 3>And there's like one more big step that comes right

0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.280
<v Speaker 3>after the turn of the century.

0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And let's get to that big step. And if I'm

0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:36.479
<v Speaker 2>if I'm predicting this right, I have a feeling it

0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:38.840
<v Speaker 2>has something to do with the game as it was

0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:40.320
<v Speaker 2>played in the US.

0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 3>Yes, you know, the United States Golf Association, you know,

0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 3>was formed in eighteen ninety five and you know, became

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:52.639
<v Speaker 3>the ruling authority in the United States that what was

0:22:52.680 --> 0:22:55.680
<v Speaker 3>and still is the only place in the world that's

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:57.320
<v Speaker 3>not ruled by the Royal and Ancient.

0:22:57.320 --> 0:22:58.359
<v Speaker 1>And there have been.

0:22:58.720 --> 0:23:02.200
<v Speaker 3>Mostly cooperation between the actually very admirable cooperation in the main,

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.440
<v Speaker 3>but there have been points of tension, points of disagreement,

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:07.679
<v Speaker 3>points where the US approved things that the Royal and

0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 3>Ancient would not approve, steel shafts being one of the

0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.080
<v Speaker 3>major examples, but there have been other things, large ball,

0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:16.359
<v Speaker 3>small ball, different other points of But on the rules,

0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.520
<v Speaker 3>they've mostly even the STiMi, they've they've varied on the

0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.800
<v Speaker 3>rules of times, but they've mostly gone in lockstep. In

0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:27.200
<v Speaker 3>nineteen eleven, the USDA issued what I think of as

0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.880
<v Speaker 3>the first one I've seen of a formalization of par

0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:34.479
<v Speaker 3>to a whole. So they were giving out guidelines for

0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.439
<v Speaker 3>the creating of golf courses as part of the agronomy

0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:39.320
<v Speaker 3>part that they do and other things they do to

0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.960
<v Speaker 3>help the you know, the maintenance and building of golf courses.

0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:44.120
<v Speaker 3>And they were given, you know, up to two hundred

0:23:44.160 --> 0:23:46.480
<v Speaker 3>and twenty five yards would be assigned to par three,

0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.440
<v Speaker 3>two hundred and twenty five to four hundred to five

0:23:49.520 --> 0:23:52.520
<v Speaker 3>hundred would be assigned to par of four, five hundred

0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 3>are over, up to you know over would be assigned

0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:57.760
<v Speaker 3>to par five, and if it was six hundred or

0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.000
<v Speaker 3>over they even note this, it would be a paris.

0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:05.040
<v Speaker 3>So their first list includes and so that shows you

0:24:05.080 --> 0:24:08.240
<v Speaker 3>that it's still evolving, because we've never had a notion

0:24:08.280 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 3>of a par six, you know, except in weird little

0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:13.560
<v Speaker 3>golf courses that are trying to do something strange by

0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 3>making an eight hundred yard hold or whatever, you know.

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.480
<v Speaker 3>But in real golf, there's been never been any such

0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.639
<v Speaker 3>thing as a par six. But their first issue listed

0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:23.960
<v Speaker 3>par six. So I just think it's more evident. It's

0:24:24.000 --> 0:24:27.080
<v Speaker 3>how it's been a little bit of a fungible, evolving

0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:31.760
<v Speaker 3>concept over many, many, many years that now seems like

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.480
<v Speaker 3>was brought down from on high by Moses or something.

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, you know. So what's striking about this history

0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:46.080
<v Speaker 2>is how undecided it was until it was decided. And

0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:50.639
<v Speaker 2>we all seem to agree that this was par and

0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:53.400
<v Speaker 2>this is the only way that par is. But of course,

0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:57.040
<v Speaker 2>in the process of inventing that concept, there were a

0:24:57.200 --> 0:25:02.040
<v Speaker 2>great deal of detours and and you know, different concepts

0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:06.159
<v Speaker 2>that came about, you know, until this this idea that

0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:09.080
<v Speaker 2>we're all familiar with today finally coalesced.

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.679
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And there was also disagreement about the quality of

0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:16.359
<v Speaker 3>individual holes. I think a lot of people who read

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:20.359
<v Speaker 3>the article by Alexander Dolman would have disagreed strongly with

0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.200
<v Speaker 3>Davey Strath and Jamie Anderson that the first hole at

0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:28.440
<v Speaker 3>Saint Andrew's should be that five would be considered perfect golf.

0:25:28.520 --> 0:25:32.359
<v Speaker 3>On that most people would have thought six because it

0:25:32.440 --> 0:25:35.639
<v Speaker 3>was five hundred and seventy eight yards long, okay, and

0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:37.520
<v Speaker 3>they're playing with hickory clubs and they can't.

0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:39.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, the long.

0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.560
<v Speaker 3>Driving contest is being won by one hundred and forty

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.159
<v Speaker 3>yard drive. One hundred and sixty yard drive. You know,

0:25:44.320 --> 0:25:46.679
<v Speaker 3>people cannot hit it very far. If you kill it

0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:51.080
<v Speaker 3>and it rolls, it might go two hundred. So most golfers,

0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:55.080
<v Speaker 3>even really first class golfers, could not reach that green

0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:57.960
<v Speaker 3>in three shots, and so there was a strong contingition

0:25:58.000 --> 0:25:59.920
<v Speaker 3>that people thought, well, wait a minute, you can't get

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:00.360
<v Speaker 3>there in.

0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:01.639
<v Speaker 1>Three shots, it should be six.

0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:04.520
<v Speaker 3>So you know, my point is that even in the

0:26:04.560 --> 0:26:07.680
<v Speaker 3>age when they were discussing it, not everybody.

0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:08.359
<v Speaker 1>Agreed on what.

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.320
<v Speaker 3>The level of difficulty of any given hole should be.

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:18.280
<v Speaker 2>Now, obviously, from this point that we've now gotten to

0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:24.520
<v Speaker 2>in the history the early nineteen hundreds, when the modern

0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.840
<v Speaker 2>notion of par in a form that we would recognize

0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 2>it today finally emerged. From that point, a lot had

0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:37.919
<v Speaker 2>to happen in order for it to become the dominant

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:42.679
<v Speaker 2>and kind of set in stone idea that it is today.

0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:45.840
<v Speaker 2>So what do you think are some of the main

0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:52.400
<v Speaker 2>factors that caused par to become so entrenched. What are

0:26:52.520 --> 0:26:55.760
<v Speaker 2>some of the general historical trends, not necessarily specific events,

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:58.879
<v Speaker 2>but just you know, the basically.

0:26:58.560 --> 0:26:59.919
<v Speaker 1>The advent of tele.

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.520
<v Speaker 3>You know, is a big part of it, because you know,

0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:07.120
<v Speaker 3>on television, you know, you need to know how everybody's

0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:10.399
<v Speaker 3>scoring in relationship to everybody else, and a way of

0:27:10.440 --> 0:27:14.640
<v Speaker 3>talking about that would be, you know, focusing on did

0:27:14.640 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 3>he make a par on this whole or a bogie

0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:18.960
<v Speaker 3>on this whole? And so I think, you know, that

0:27:19.160 --> 0:27:21.119
<v Speaker 3>is a big part of It's the presence of it

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.600
<v Speaker 3>on every score card you ever pick up, you know, uh,

0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:27.639
<v Speaker 3>with you know how many you know, what's the par

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:30.080
<v Speaker 3>of this course? You know how many par fives, how

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:33.240
<v Speaker 3>many par threes, you know whatever, and you know you're

0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:35.359
<v Speaker 3>in you know, I think that just the fact that

0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:38.359
<v Speaker 3>every time you stand on a tee you have the

0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:40.600
<v Speaker 3>thought in your mind, I need to make par and

0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:42.600
<v Speaker 3>that's four here or that's five here.

0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:45.000
<v Speaker 1>I just think it became, you know, more.

0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:48.880
<v Speaker 3>More a part of our mindset and our consciousness than

0:27:48.880 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 3>it had been in the past, when golf was played

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.480
<v Speaker 3>more freely and more you know, as a man on

0:27:54.600 --> 0:27:57.480
<v Speaker 3>man competition, when you didn't need to think so much

0:27:57.480 --> 0:28:00.320
<v Speaker 3>about your individual score, so that but I I would

0:28:00.320 --> 0:28:02.920
<v Speaker 3>say probably television is probably the biggest one. And also

0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:06.439
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure where along the line it happened, probably

0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:10.720
<v Speaker 3>Robert Trent Jones. But when the USAGA somehow got the

0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:14.879
<v Speaker 3>notion that their mission in life was to defend parr,

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.439
<v Speaker 3>to defend parr on the golf course by making it

0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:21.880
<v Speaker 3>harder and harder and harder, and some of us might

0:28:21.960 --> 0:28:24.640
<v Speaker 3>say more and more ridiculous.

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:25.680
<v Speaker 1>So I sort of.

0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.000
<v Speaker 3>Think that, you know, the idea of the open doctor

0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:32.720
<v Speaker 3>is probably a big contributor, because the point of the

0:28:32.760 --> 0:28:36.239
<v Speaker 3>open doctor coming and attending to the patient was to

0:28:36.280 --> 0:28:38.160
<v Speaker 3>make it impossible to score par.

0:28:38.400 --> 0:28:43.120
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, breaking par was the disease, and the open

0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:47.680
<v Speaker 2>doctor was there to cure that. For sure. Joe Dye's

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:51.320
<v Speaker 2>role here is obviously profound. Joe Die was the I

0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 2>believe his title was the executive director or something like

0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:58.800
<v Speaker 2>that of the USGA from the nineteen thirties through the

0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:03.200
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixties when he jumped on with a fledgling PGA tour.

0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:08.840
<v Speaker 2>But his setup philosophy and his basically general philosophy of

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:14.720
<v Speaker 2>championship golf was that par is sort of the governing concept,

0:29:14.920 --> 0:29:19.200
<v Speaker 2>and that if the winning score was below par, that

0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that was not as good as the winning score being

0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:25.600
<v Speaker 2>exactly par or above parr should be a great score

0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.600
<v Speaker 2>on a whole. That was his idea, and as far

0:29:28.640 --> 0:29:32.680
<v Speaker 2>as I know, he was the first set up executive

0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:38.720
<v Speaker 2>in golf to start to manufacture scoring in relation to par.

0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 2>And by that I don't just mean growing rough and

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:45.960
<v Speaker 2>narrowing fairways and putting in new bunkers, which he had

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 2>Robert Trent Jones do at a number of American courses

0:29:49.040 --> 0:29:52.520
<v Speaker 2>that hosted the US Open. Obviously those were important things,

0:29:52.920 --> 0:29:56.640
<v Speaker 2>but he even went to the extent of reassigning the

0:29:56.680 --> 0:30:00.320
<v Speaker 2>par of certain holes, turning par fives in to par

0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 2>fours without really shortening them that much, and producing a

0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:11.280
<v Speaker 2>course par of seventy as opposed to seventy two, and

0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:16.600
<v Speaker 2>therefore obviously making it harder to score even par at

0:30:16.640 --> 0:30:19.120
<v Speaker 2>a golf course. And so that I think is the

0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:24.040
<v Speaker 2>factor that really shows how important par already was by

0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.880
<v Speaker 2>the post World War two era that Joe die was

0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 2>in there just reassigning par. The only reason for that

0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:35.280
<v Speaker 2>really is if you're concerned about the score to par

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:39.240
<v Speaker 2>and think that the legitimacy of the championship rests in

0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:43.480
<v Speaker 2>part on how scoring works out in relation to.

0:30:43.440 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Par Yes, and you know, and I do think that.

0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:48.560
<v Speaker 3>You know, obviously the English were the very interested in

0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.760
<v Speaker 3>stroke play scoring from the beginning, but it went through

0:30:51.760 --> 0:30:55.240
<v Speaker 3>an order of magnitude change when Americans took up the

0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:58.000
<v Speaker 3>game in earnest after the First World War. You know,

0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:02.520
<v Speaker 3>Americans were obsessed still are obsessed with their score. You

0:31:02.560 --> 0:31:06.160
<v Speaker 3>could go to Scotland today and you could play golf

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:09.640
<v Speaker 3>on one of the greatest championship courses in the world.

0:31:09.760 --> 0:31:12.160
<v Speaker 1>Let's say you went to Royal Dornic and you played.

0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:15.280
<v Speaker 3>There, you game off the golf course into the pub.

0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:18.000
<v Speaker 3>There isn't a single Scotsman who's going to ask you

0:31:18.040 --> 0:31:20.480
<v Speaker 3>would you score? They're going to ask you, how is

0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:22.840
<v Speaker 3>your game? What did you think of the course? You know,

0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 3>But Americans, I've never come off an American golf course

0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:28.160
<v Speaker 3>where the first question isn't what did you score? You

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.719
<v Speaker 3>know some of it was Joe Dye was in some

0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:36.240
<v Speaker 3>ways a mirror of his own community, because American players becoming,

0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:39.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, being you know, you know, really good golfers

0:31:39.560 --> 0:31:42.280
<v Speaker 3>are driven people, and you know they're driven to lower

0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:46.160
<v Speaker 3>their score, and so they need something to measure themselves against,

0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.960
<v Speaker 3>and of course Parr was that something. And the idea

0:31:50.000 --> 0:31:53.160
<v Speaker 3>of beating Parr, you know is, you know, every single

0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:56.960
<v Speaker 3>person I think that I know that plays golf has thresholds.

0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:58.840
<v Speaker 3>They're trying to get blow. I want to break a hundred,

0:31:58.880 --> 0:31:59.960
<v Speaker 3>I want to break ninety.

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 1>Break eighty.

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:04.520
<v Speaker 3>You know some you know people get to break seventy,

0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:06.120
<v Speaker 3>but not that many, you know.

0:32:06.240 --> 0:32:08.360
<v Speaker 1>So I do think that some of it was the.

0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:12.080
<v Speaker 3>American mindset, and Dies Dies, you know, was a sort

0:32:12.080 --> 0:32:14.560
<v Speaker 3>of what I would call a taken to the extreme

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:18.240
<v Speaker 3>reflection of the American mindset that already existed and had

0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:22.560
<v Speaker 3>existed pretty much since the twenties and thirties, when Americans

0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:26.440
<v Speaker 3>were just practiced all the time. British people never practiced,

0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:28.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, the ancient golf facilies that they don't have

0:32:28.960 --> 0:32:33.440
<v Speaker 3>a range, nobody practiced, you know. Americans practiced obsessively and

0:32:33.520 --> 0:32:36.000
<v Speaker 3>all of their golf courses had practice areas.

0:32:35.680 --> 0:32:37.320
<v Speaker 1>Those were unknown in Britain.

0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:40.760
<v Speaker 3>So a lot of this, the sort of americanizing of

0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:44.400
<v Speaker 3>the game is another thing that has created this mindset

0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:47.240
<v Speaker 3>of you know, par Is is the sacro saying thing

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:50.720
<v Speaker 3>in golf, and that's what you know, what must be

0:32:50.920 --> 0:32:52.080
<v Speaker 3>upheld in the tournament.

0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:57.800
<v Speaker 2>And also, as you've alluded to already, the practice of

0:32:57.960 --> 0:33:03.120
<v Speaker 2>keeping track of a tournament in relation to par is

0:33:03.640 --> 0:33:07.960
<v Speaker 2>mostly an American invention. Now, I don't know the exact

0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:10.560
<v Speaker 2>year that this was introduced. I think I would be

0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:12.160
<v Speaker 2>able to find it if I were to look at

0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:15.040
<v Speaker 2>David Owen's book. I'm not at home right now, so

0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:17.360
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't able to check before we jumped on for

0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>this podcast. But I know that the legendary CBS producer

0:33:23.280 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 2>Frank Shirkinyan, who for years ran the Master's Telecast on CBS,

0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:32.480
<v Speaker 2>which introduced a number of innovations that were now very

0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:36.320
<v Speaker 2>used to now on golf telecasts, was the first person

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:39.040
<v Speaker 2>to realize, you know what, this makes a lot more

0:33:39.080 --> 0:33:43.240
<v Speaker 2>sense if we display scoring in relation to par. Because

0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:47.400
<v Speaker 2>if we display scoring as a cumulative number, then people

0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:51.000
<v Speaker 2>won't really know where players are in relation to each other,

0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 2>because some have finished before others have started. And so

0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:58.920
<v Speaker 2>if we can invent a leader board that has score

0:33:59.000 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 2>to par, and people will be able to keep track

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:05.160
<v Speaker 2>of the tournament much more effectively. Now, obviously this decision

0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:10.399
<v Speaker 2>made a lot of sense for television golf obviously, you know,

0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:14.080
<v Speaker 2>it's a much superior way to watch television golf. Otherwise

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:18.480
<v Speaker 2>it gets pretty confusing. But I don't think that he

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:22.800
<v Speaker 2>could have predicted that Shirkenian could have predicted how profound

0:34:23.040 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 2>the effect of this decision would be on the way

0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:31.319
<v Speaker 2>that people understand everything about a golf tournament. We just

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 2>saw it at the US Open at LACC, where as

0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:38.279
<v Speaker 2>soon as a few red numbers appear on that leaderboard,

0:34:38.680 --> 0:34:40.560
<v Speaker 2>people start freaking out right.

0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:42.880
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's so fascinating to me here. You know,

0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:44.960
<v Speaker 3>I think you're totally right. And that's a brilliant observation

0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:48.560
<v Speaker 3>about Turkanian. You know, that was sort of like there

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:50.799
<v Speaker 3>was already a fairly large fire, and that's kind of

0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:54.719
<v Speaker 3>like throwing gas on the fire of focusing on par

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:57.480
<v Speaker 3>and obviously makes perfect sense for television.

0:34:57.520 --> 0:34:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Its brilliant innovation for television.

0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:02.680
<v Speaker 3>But it did, did, I think, you know, create even

0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:06.440
<v Speaker 3>ratchet up another several degrees the idea that you know,

0:35:06.520 --> 0:35:08.960
<v Speaker 3>once people start to realize that people are way under

0:35:09.000 --> 0:35:12.920
<v Speaker 3>par well, then you know they you know, they don't

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:14.839
<v Speaker 3>think about it in the way that I would think

0:35:14.880 --> 0:35:18.600
<v Speaker 3>they should think about it as well. Is par too low?

0:35:19.360 --> 0:35:21.319
<v Speaker 3>I mean, you know, is do we need to make

0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:23.880
<v Speaker 3>par lower or I mean higher or whatever?

0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:25.359
<v Speaker 1>You know, do we need to change the.

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:28.360
<v Speaker 3>Number of the par on the whole rather than you know?

0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:31.440
<v Speaker 3>And I think what's happened here lately is that you know,

0:35:31.800 --> 0:35:35.520
<v Speaker 3>La Country Club was just that course was brilliant. It was,

0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 3>you know, and I think it played quite brilliantly, and

0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:39.560
<v Speaker 3>it was really.

0:35:39.280 --> 0:35:40.320
<v Speaker 1>Fun golf to watch.

0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:42.520
<v Speaker 3>And I didn't care one wit if somebody was nine

0:35:42.600 --> 0:35:46.000
<v Speaker 3>under or five under or whatever they were. The shots

0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:49.120
<v Speaker 3>that they were required to play called for actual skill

0:35:49.280 --> 0:35:50.880
<v Speaker 3>and so forth and so on.

0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:53.640
<v Speaker 1>So my view of the world is now that.

0:35:53.600 --> 0:35:56.960
<v Speaker 3>We need to be thinking of par in the way

0:35:57.000 --> 0:35:58.719
<v Speaker 3>they might have thought of it earlier, as a more

0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:01.840
<v Speaker 3>of a fungible concept. And I think a lot of

0:36:01.840 --> 0:36:05.080
<v Speaker 3>golf courses that are played, especially the mundane courses they

0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:08.520
<v Speaker 3>tend to play on the PGA Tour, now those should

0:36:08.600 --> 0:36:13.440
<v Speaker 3>be par sixty sixty seven, you know, not par seventy

0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:14.359
<v Speaker 3>or par seventy two.

0:36:14.760 --> 0:36:17.279
<v Speaker 1>I mean, honestly, if you can hit the ball three hundred.

0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:20.239
<v Speaker 3>And forty yards in the air, as large percentage of

0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 3>tour players now can do Can a three hundred and

0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:25.719
<v Speaker 3>forty fifty yard hole be considered a.

0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Par four or not? Is that a par three?

0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:32.880
<v Speaker 3>You know, if you're playing from within seventy yards of

0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:36.440
<v Speaker 3>every par four hole, are they really par fours?

0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:38.839
<v Speaker 1>You know, because if.

0:36:38.760 --> 0:36:40.960
<v Speaker 3>You're within seventy yards, you're gonna be able to hit

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:42.840
<v Speaker 3>it close enough that maybe you ought to make that putt,

0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:46.320
<v Speaker 3>you know. I do think what we're doing is angstying

0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:50.120
<v Speaker 3>over the low scoring and then destroying the golf course

0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 3>to try to create high scoring when what we should

0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 3>be doing is thinking of part in the way that

0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:59.040
<v Speaker 3>it's always been thought of as an evolutionary concept. And

0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:01.719
<v Speaker 3>the par on most mind golf courses for a professional

0:37:01.719 --> 0:37:04.839
<v Speaker 3>playing modern equipment really ought not to be higher than

0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:07.520
<v Speaker 3>sixty eight in my opinion, you know, it's just and

0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.600
<v Speaker 3>the scoring proves that to be true. Even in places

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.120
<v Speaker 3>where they're tricking it up to the nth degree to

0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:15.200
<v Speaker 3>try to make the scoring high, they still haven't been

0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:17.160
<v Speaker 3>able to keep an open under ten hunder in the

0:37:17.239 --> 0:37:20.120
<v Speaker 3>last few years. Most of them has been minus ten

0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:22.640
<v Speaker 3>or thereabouts for the winner. The ball goes too far,

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:25.120
<v Speaker 3>the equipment's too strong, the players are too strong, So

0:37:25.920 --> 0:37:27.479
<v Speaker 3>I think what we need to do is just think

0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.280
<v Speaker 3>of par differently, not alter the golf course.

0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:34.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. If there's anything that we can learn from the

0:37:34.120 --> 0:37:37.280
<v Speaker 2>history that you've taken us through in the late eighteen

0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:41.240
<v Speaker 2>hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, it's that par hasn't always

0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>been as strictly defined as we think it is now,

0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and so certainly it can be I believe you use

0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:50.560
<v Speaker 2>the word fungible before. I think that's a good word.

0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:54.600
<v Speaker 2>It can be a fungible idea rather than a really

0:37:54.640 --> 0:37:56.520
<v Speaker 2>strict one. All right, we're going to take a quick

0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.720
<v Speaker 2>break here and soon we'll be back with Stephen Proctor

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to discuss some of the more philosophical matters when it comes.

0:38:03.760 --> 0:38:04.280
<v Speaker 3>To part.

0:38:10.080 --> 0:38:13.839
<v Speaker 2>Our next partner for this episode is golf Genius. Your

0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:17.080
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0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:20.120
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0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.480
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0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:28.120
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0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:47.359
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0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:54.799
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0:39:01.680 --> 0:39:04.680
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0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:16.759
<v Speaker 2>All right, we're back with Stephen Proctor. So Stephen, you know,

0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:20.080
<v Speaker 2>one of the early concepts of par as articulated by

0:39:20.080 --> 0:39:24.799
<v Speaker 2>the USGA in nineteen eleven, is that the length of

0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:28.640
<v Speaker 2>hull has something to do with the par number that

0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:33.280
<v Speaker 2>gets assigned to it. In today's age of increasing distance

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:38.120
<v Speaker 2>off the tee, you know, ever increasing quality of technology,

0:39:38.760 --> 0:39:42.120
<v Speaker 2>where do you think we should land in defining the

0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:44.839
<v Speaker 2>concept of par when it comes to length of.

0:39:44.800 --> 0:39:48.359
<v Speaker 3>All Well, you know, I sort of feel that in

0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:51.719
<v Speaker 3>an age when a goodly number of golfers can fly

0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.560
<v Speaker 3>the ball, that doesn't count running fly the ball three

0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.680
<v Speaker 3>hundred and twenty or three hundred and forty yards. Can

0:39:57.719 --> 0:40:00.000
<v Speaker 3>you really think of a three hundred and eighty yard

0:40:00.160 --> 0:40:03.560
<v Speaker 3>par hole is a par four now it's really at

0:40:03.600 --> 0:40:06.680
<v Speaker 3>the most a par three and a half. But you know,

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:08.920
<v Speaker 3>so I think, you know, it would be wise if

0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:11.399
<v Speaker 3>we are continued to be obsessed with the idea that

0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:17.960
<v Speaker 3>someone shooting eight under par is a crisis, then I

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:21.080
<v Speaker 3>think we should then adjust the par to the reality

0:40:21.120 --> 0:40:24.040
<v Speaker 3>of the distances players hit the ball on the Men's

0:40:24.080 --> 0:40:27.279
<v Speaker 3>Tour in particular, and you know, just as Joe Died

0:40:27.360 --> 0:40:29.880
<v Speaker 3>lowered it to seventy, lower to sixty eight or sixty seven.

0:40:29.920 --> 0:40:33.279
<v Speaker 3>But you know, I think the main thing is, I

0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:35.720
<v Speaker 3>think it would be healthy for the game people stopped

0:40:35.719 --> 0:40:40.040
<v Speaker 3>obsessing on whether people will over or under par and

0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:43.400
<v Speaker 3>tried to look at the game from what value of shots?

0:40:43.480 --> 0:40:46.759
<v Speaker 3>How difficult are the shots this car calls for, and

0:40:46.840 --> 0:40:50.840
<v Speaker 3>who demonstrates the most skill in executing them, rather than

0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:52.240
<v Speaker 3>you know, a numbers chase.

0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:56.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think that thinking about it in this

0:40:56.680 --> 0:41:02.160
<v Speaker 2>way would maybe help. Is the thirteenth hole at Augusta

0:41:02.920 --> 0:41:07.200
<v Speaker 2>easier than some run of the mill par four or

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:11.160
<v Speaker 2>par five on the PGA too? Are just because players

0:41:11.280 --> 0:41:14.600
<v Speaker 2>average under par on the thirteenth hole at Augusta National,

0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:18.000
<v Speaker 2>we are familiar with the shots that players have to

0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:22.040
<v Speaker 2>hit on that great hole in the Masters. That is

0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 2>a difficult hole to reckon with because you're asked to

0:41:25.120 --> 0:41:30.359
<v Speaker 2>do really nerve racking difficult things in order to score well.

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:33.000
<v Speaker 2>But yes, if you look at the scoring average on

0:41:33.040 --> 0:41:36.239
<v Speaker 2>the hole, it's pretty low. It's consistently under par. Less

0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:40.200
<v Speaker 2>so since they lengthened it. But even before the lengthening,

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:45.239
<v Speaker 2>that hole was no doubt very very difficult to confront

0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:48.960
<v Speaker 2>on the drive, on the approach into the green, on

0:41:49.000 --> 0:41:52.400
<v Speaker 2>the chip shots, etc. That players had to hit around

0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:56.080
<v Speaker 2>the green. Everything about that hole is challenging. And yet

0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:58.560
<v Speaker 2>the score to par is low. And so what that

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:01.360
<v Speaker 2>should tell people is that score to par is not

0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:05.960
<v Speaker 2>a very good way of assessing the actual difficulty challenge

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:07.319
<v Speaker 2>that a whole presents.

0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:10.000
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I completely agree with that, Garrett, and I you know,

0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:11.880
<v Speaker 3>we have reached a level of obsession with that. I

0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:14.919
<v Speaker 3>feel like, you know, it was driving me crazy during

0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:17.680
<v Speaker 3>the Open at the La Country Club because you know,

0:42:18.400 --> 0:42:21.000
<v Speaker 3>so much negativity around the fact that people were shooting

0:42:21.080 --> 0:42:24.440
<v Speaker 3>low scores when in fact, you know, the golf that

0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:27.760
<v Speaker 3>was played there was pretty darn exciting golf as compared

0:42:27.800 --> 0:42:30.680
<v Speaker 3>to a lot of the you know, slog fests that

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:32.600
<v Speaker 3>you get at a US Open, where it's a twenty

0:42:32.640 --> 0:42:35.920
<v Speaker 3>two yard fair way and you know, everybody's wedging out

0:42:35.960 --> 0:42:37.640
<v Speaker 3>from the rough. So I don't know, I found that

0:42:37.680 --> 0:42:39.440
<v Speaker 3>way more interesting to watch, and I found it kind

0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:43.479
<v Speaker 3>of dispiriting. All the negative commentary about the golf course

0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:46.640
<v Speaker 3>related to the question of par PR has done some

0:42:46.719 --> 0:42:48.680
<v Speaker 3>things that were not so good for us. I feel like,

0:42:48.760 --> 0:42:52.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, and this this quest to have a course

0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:55.280
<v Speaker 3>that where you can't break par I think is going

0:42:55.640 --> 0:42:58.359
<v Speaker 3>one eighty degree opposite of what.

0:42:58.280 --> 0:42:59.120
<v Speaker 1>The game needs.

0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:03.120
<v Speaker 3>You know, the game is under attack in a lot

0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:07.279
<v Speaker 3>of quarters environmentally because obvious reasons. It takes up a

0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:09.440
<v Speaker 3>lot of space, it uses up a lot of water,

0:43:09.520 --> 0:43:14.360
<v Speaker 3>it often uses too many chemicals. And so the answer

0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:16.919
<v Speaker 3>to that problem is not to make eight thousand, five

0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:21.760
<v Speaker 3>hundred yard golf courses, you know. It's to either change

0:43:22.000 --> 0:43:26.200
<v Speaker 3>our equipment or change our concept of what what matters

0:43:26.280 --> 0:43:29.960
<v Speaker 3>scoring wise. And I don't I don't, you know, I

0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:32.560
<v Speaker 3>don't see a great groundswell of interest in the rollback

0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:36.880
<v Speaker 3>except among architecture types. Uh. The average golfer seems to

0:43:36.920 --> 0:43:39.160
<v Speaker 3>have less than zero interest in it. Which has always

0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:42.120
<v Speaker 3>been true, Garrett. You know, when the when we proposed

0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:44.560
<v Speaker 3>to ban the rubber cor ball at the beginning, you know,

0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:48.120
<v Speaker 3>all the you know, the the aficionado crowd was all

0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:50.920
<v Speaker 3>for it, and the regular players were all against it.

0:43:51.040 --> 0:43:53.120
<v Speaker 3>And that's sort of that to my mind, that hasn't

0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:57.040
<v Speaker 3>changed one iota since since nenteen o two, and so,

0:43:57.480 --> 0:43:59.480
<v Speaker 3>you know, I guess I think the healthier route is

0:44:00.320 --> 0:44:03.320
<v Speaker 3>care less about the score per hole and just marvel

0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:06.040
<v Speaker 3>at shots that get made. I'm strongly in favor of

0:44:06.080 --> 0:44:08.600
<v Speaker 3>the rollback. I would love to see a rollback, both

0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:12.279
<v Speaker 3>of equipment and of the ball itself. I personally just

0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 3>rolled the game back for myself because I wanted it

0:44:15.040 --> 0:44:16.880
<v Speaker 3>to be rolled back, and I went and played Hickory

0:44:16.880 --> 0:44:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Clubs instead. But so, you know, but I worry that

0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:24.279
<v Speaker 3>that's not going to happen. And then where do we

0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.279
<v Speaker 3>go If we keep chasing this concept of create a

0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:30.000
<v Speaker 3>course where they can't shoot under par, that's not going

0:44:30.080 --> 0:44:30.839
<v Speaker 3>to happen.

0:44:30.880 --> 0:44:34.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, And you know, it's also hard to change people's

0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:38.160
<v Speaker 2>mindset about par and to convince people that, you know,

0:44:38.640 --> 0:44:42.520
<v Speaker 2>a course with a par below seventy is a real

0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:45.000
<v Speaker 2>golf course somehow we've gotten it into our heads that

0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:49.680
<v Speaker 2>seventy two, seventy three, seventy one to seventy those are

0:44:49.719 --> 0:44:52.839
<v Speaker 2>real golf courses. But once you get to sixty nine,

0:44:53.040 --> 0:44:56.799
<v Speaker 2>right one under seventy, once you get there, that's not

0:44:57.040 --> 0:45:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a championship golf course. Somehow we've gotten that that idea

0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:03.800
<v Speaker 2>in our heads as well, and it's preventing us from

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:09.799
<v Speaker 2>doing some things in our you know, conceptualization of championship

0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:14.640
<v Speaker 2>golf courses. That's very limiting and is starting to require

0:45:15.120 --> 0:45:19.719
<v Speaker 2>the lengthening of golf courses rather than a simple, you know,

0:45:20.000 --> 0:45:23.799
<v Speaker 2>mental shift about what the par of a championship course

0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:24.120
<v Speaker 2>can be.

0:45:24.640 --> 0:45:26.640
<v Speaker 3>You know, I agree with what you said there, and

0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:28.520
<v Speaker 3>I think it's more of an American thing than it

0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:31.520
<v Speaker 3>is elsewhere, because when you go to Scotland, there are

0:45:31.560 --> 0:45:35.880
<v Speaker 3>tons and tons of courses in Scotland that are highly popular,

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.799
<v Speaker 3>like Craile that's par sixty nine, different other courses that

0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:44.600
<v Speaker 3>are par in the sixties somewhere, and there's you know,

0:45:44.640 --> 0:45:47.480
<v Speaker 3>they I think they view it as there are championship

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:50.439
<v Speaker 3>courses like Saint Andrew's and you know, Dornic and those,

0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.440
<v Speaker 3>and then there are sporting courses where it's more about

0:45:53.520 --> 0:45:55.399
<v Speaker 3>how many shots do you have in your bag, how

0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:58.200
<v Speaker 3>crafty are you, than it is about how far you

0:45:58.200 --> 0:46:00.719
<v Speaker 3>can hit the ball, And so I think it's it's

0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:02.880
<v Speaker 3>more of an American that's again, I think that's more

0:46:02.920 --> 0:46:05.759
<v Speaker 3>of an American mindset that if it's not par. I

0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:09.440
<v Speaker 3>personally play about two thirds of by golf on a

0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:12.680
<v Speaker 3>course that has par sixty seven, has one par five,

0:46:12.800 --> 0:46:18.560
<v Speaker 3>six par threes, six extremely difficult par threes. And you know,

0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:21.799
<v Speaker 3>I'm happy to take anybody on that wants to bet

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.000
<v Speaker 3>that they can come and shoot their handicap on that

0:46:25.120 --> 0:46:28.640
<v Speaker 3>course the first time they play it, because you naturally

0:46:28.760 --> 0:46:31.560
<v Speaker 3>see the number on the card, you see how many

0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:33.440
<v Speaker 3>yards it is, and you think you're just gonna bomb

0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:35.880
<v Speaker 3>your way around there and bring this course to his knees,

0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:36.520
<v Speaker 3>and that will.

0:46:36.360 --> 0:46:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Not happen, you know.

0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:39.920
<v Speaker 3>And so I just think there's different ways of looking

0:46:39.960 --> 0:46:43.160
<v Speaker 3>at golf, and Americans are a little bit closed mind.

0:46:43.200 --> 0:46:45.759
<v Speaker 3>Do they want a championship course of X number of

0:46:45.840 --> 0:46:48.840
<v Speaker 3>length and they want to play from the back te

0:46:49.520 --> 0:46:50.759
<v Speaker 3>regardless of handicap.

0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:54.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious also what the effect of the idea of

0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:59.319
<v Speaker 2>par has been on golf architecture. On the way that

0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:02.440
<v Speaker 2>golf course verses get built. I wonder if you have

0:47:02.560 --> 0:47:06.520
<v Speaker 2>thoughts on that, on whether this idea has kind of

0:47:06.560 --> 0:47:09.760
<v Speaker 2>put all of us into a box when it comes

0:47:09.800 --> 0:47:11.440
<v Speaker 2>to building golf courses.

0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:15.000
<v Speaker 3>I certainly think in terms of arrangement, I mean like

0:47:16.200 --> 0:47:19.640
<v Speaker 3>there's a sameness to you know, when golf architecture began,

0:47:20.400 --> 0:47:21.960
<v Speaker 3>you had a piece of land in front of you

0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:24.200
<v Speaker 3>and you figured out how many good holes fit on it,

0:47:24.520 --> 0:47:26.759
<v Speaker 3>and that's what that's how many holes there would be,

0:47:27.440 --> 0:47:29.960
<v Speaker 3>and they might all be par four. So ELI is

0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:31.160
<v Speaker 3>a classical example of this.

0:47:31.239 --> 0:47:33.719
<v Speaker 1>I think ELI is about sixteen.

0:47:33.280 --> 0:47:37.359
<v Speaker 3>Par fours and you know, just the holes that were there,

0:47:37.400 --> 0:47:40.759
<v Speaker 3>they made. And in a modern age, you know, we

0:47:40.760 --> 0:47:42.520
<v Speaker 3>do get put into the box if it needs two

0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:45.879
<v Speaker 3>par fives on each side, two par threes on each side,

0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and so I do think it gets a little scripted,

0:47:48.360 --> 0:47:51.960
<v Speaker 3>and that can't help but influence the nature of the design,

0:47:52.160 --> 0:47:54.760
<v Speaker 3>because where am I fitting in my two par threes,

0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:57.960
<v Speaker 3>you know, as opposed to how does this land want

0:47:58.040 --> 0:48:01.839
<v Speaker 3>to be used to create in a golf holes? And

0:48:02.160 --> 0:48:04.920
<v Speaker 3>I do think, you know, obviously I feel like the

0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.879
<v Speaker 3>modern the more modern architects, the gil Hans's and Tom

0:48:07.960 --> 0:48:12.239
<v Speaker 3>Doaks and Bill Core and Crenshaws, those types of architects,

0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:14.600
<v Speaker 3>and the younger group of people that are coming up

0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:17.800
<v Speaker 3>behind them, you know, Jay Blasi and Fry and Strach

0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:20.640
<v Speaker 3>and some of these people. You know, they're being less

0:48:20.680 --> 0:48:24.400
<v Speaker 3>scripted by that sort of thing, and I feel like

0:48:24.400 --> 0:48:27.759
<v Speaker 3>they're creating more interesting and more innovative golf courses. But

0:48:27.800 --> 0:48:29.400
<v Speaker 3>I do think it's sort of hemmed us into the

0:48:29.440 --> 0:48:31.040
<v Speaker 3>idea that we need this many par three is this

0:48:31.080 --> 0:48:33.200
<v Speaker 3>many par fours and this many par fives or it's

0:48:33.200 --> 0:48:35.359
<v Speaker 3>not a real golf course and they need to be this.

0:48:35.360 --> 0:48:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Long, right Yeah. And you know, I just came back

0:48:38.400 --> 0:48:42.879
<v Speaker 2>from Sand Valley, the resort in Wisconsin, and right now

0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:46.200
<v Speaker 2>there's a course being built almost completed called Sedge Valley,

0:48:46.640 --> 0:48:50.040
<v Speaker 2>designed by Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design, and it's

0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:52.520
<v Speaker 2>going to be a par sixty eight. There are no

0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:55.319
<v Speaker 2>par fives on the course. It's a bunch of par

0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:58.560
<v Speaker 2>four'st There's one section of the course where you have

0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:02.720
<v Speaker 2>three out of four holes in a row are part threes.

0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And so I'm hoping that when people play this course

0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:11.480
<v Speaker 2>and realize that it's a genuine challenge and great golf,

0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:16.040
<v Speaker 2>that something of a shift will emerge.

0:49:15.640 --> 0:49:18.160
<v Speaker 3>And that can be really really important because you know

0:49:18.760 --> 0:49:21.880
<v Speaker 3>that sounds like Elie or Craile or any of the

0:49:22.040 --> 0:49:24.520
<v Speaker 3>or done Averty, where my friend Jim Hartzel loves to play.

0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:27.600
<v Speaker 3>There's you know, a lot of these courses are not long.

0:49:27.760 --> 0:49:31.680
<v Speaker 3>They're just super fun and tough, super tough and challenging

0:49:31.719 --> 0:49:32.120
<v Speaker 3>to play.

0:49:32.640 --> 0:49:34.880
<v Speaker 1>And you know, so I do.

0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:37.920
<v Speaker 3>I think that's wonderful. I knew I had read a

0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:40.520
<v Speaker 3>little bit about Sedge Valley, but I didn't realize, you know,

0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:42.839
<v Speaker 3>the sequencing of three part threes and real that kind

0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:45.439
<v Speaker 3>of thing. I think it was fabulous. That's what That's

0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:46.320
<v Speaker 3>what the ground wanted.

0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:47.040
<v Speaker 1>That's you know.

0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:50.080
<v Speaker 3>So I do feel like we're getting back to an

0:49:50.120 --> 0:49:50.719
<v Speaker 3>older time.

0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:51.120
<v Speaker 1>You know that.

0:49:51.200 --> 0:49:54.200
<v Speaker 3>I've been thinking about old Tom Morris a lot and

0:49:54.280 --> 0:49:56.960
<v Speaker 3>the way that he just discovered holes in the landscape.

0:49:57.000 --> 0:49:58.439
<v Speaker 1>He couldn't move anything, and.

0:49:58.760 --> 0:50:01.080
<v Speaker 3>You know, I sort of feel like we're letting the

0:50:01.160 --> 0:50:03.200
<v Speaker 3>land speak to us a little more in the modern

0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:05.680
<v Speaker 3>age about where the hole should go. And I think

0:50:05.719 --> 0:50:08.400
<v Speaker 3>of that as a very positive step overall.

0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:11.439
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think about what it was like for old

0:50:11.440 --> 0:50:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Tom Morris, to lay out a golf course liberated from

0:50:15.440 --> 0:50:18.319
<v Speaker 2>the idea of par it must have been such a

0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:20.640
<v Speaker 2>different exercise, not just in the sense that you can

0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>look for holes that fit the land, which is obviously

0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:28.080
<v Speaker 2>very important, but also because with each individual hole, you

0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:31.960
<v Speaker 2>aren't thinking to yourself, are players going to object to

0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:36.000
<v Speaker 2>this because it doesn't fit into a par category? Because

0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:39.840
<v Speaker 2>players often do that. You know, players often are unhappy

0:50:39.880 --> 0:50:42.319
<v Speaker 2>with a par four because they don't think that it's

0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:44.920
<v Speaker 2>a proper par four. They think, I can't make a

0:50:44.960 --> 0:50:47.600
<v Speaker 2>par on this hole, or a birdie is too easy

0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:49.759
<v Speaker 2>on this hole. It has to it has to fit

0:50:49.800 --> 0:50:51.440
<v Speaker 2>that category, and that's so limiting.

0:50:51.960 --> 0:50:52.200
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:50:52.400 --> 0:50:55.279
<v Speaker 3>Imagine, if you will, what kind of crazy person would

0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:58.200
<v Speaker 3>build a five hundred and seventy eight yard hole in

0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:03.319
<v Speaker 3>eighteen fifty one the opening hole too, no gentle handshake there,

0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:05.640
<v Speaker 3>five hundred and seventy eight hour opener with the swamp

0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:07.400
<v Speaker 3>in the middle of the in the middle of the hole,

0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:09.600
<v Speaker 3>so you know, and a number of you know, if

0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:13.600
<v Speaker 3>you go to Macrahonish, the first hole at Macrahanish you

0:51:13.680 --> 0:51:17.319
<v Speaker 3>have to carry the ocean and you know, to reach

0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:21.360
<v Speaker 3>the fairway. So you know, Tom was perfectly happy to

0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:25.040
<v Speaker 3>challenge you with really dramatic shots, and he didn't have

0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:27.080
<v Speaker 3>any thought in his mind that might cause you.

0:51:27.040 --> 0:51:28.840
<v Speaker 1>To make a six. Well, who cares? You know.

0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:31.200
<v Speaker 3>It just was so different then, and I think you're

0:51:31.280 --> 0:51:34.800
<v Speaker 3>right that, you know, he was much freer to create

0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 3>interesting golf holes because his mind was not cluttered up

0:51:38.400 --> 0:51:41.600
<v Speaker 3>with any notion as to number one, how many he required,

0:51:42.080 --> 0:51:43.920
<v Speaker 3>number two, what length they should be?

0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:47.400
<v Speaker 1>You know, just was what His only focus.

0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:51.320
<v Speaker 3>Is, what will be sporting and fun and challenging. And people,

0:51:51.800 --> 0:51:55.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, people judge courses differently than most of the

0:51:55.160 --> 0:51:57.880
<v Speaker 3>reviews you read from the eighteen nineties are like rating

0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:00.360
<v Speaker 3>the course on the quality, the difficulty of its hap hazards,

0:52:00.400 --> 0:52:03.480
<v Speaker 3>how hard are it's hazards to deal with? And nowadays

0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:06.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, any hazard is too hard of a hazard.

0:52:06.719 --> 0:52:09.360
<v Speaker 3>It has to be raped. It can't be any deeper

0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:10.759
<v Speaker 3>than this. I need to be able to see the

0:52:10.760 --> 0:52:13.920
<v Speaker 3>flag at all times. You know, nobody had those ideas

0:52:13.920 --> 0:52:16.799
<v Speaker 3>in their head. Then golf was way more of an

0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:20.440
<v Speaker 3>adventure then. You know, the blind shots, you know, all

0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:23.719
<v Speaker 3>kinds of things that are in anathema today and I

0:52:23.760 --> 0:52:25.040
<v Speaker 3>think have actually.

0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:25.960
<v Speaker 1>Diminished the fun of the game.

0:52:26.400 --> 0:52:28.279
<v Speaker 3>If you go to Scotland, you play a hole like

0:52:28.280 --> 0:52:31.399
<v Speaker 3>the Himalayas at Preswick, which is, you know, a.

0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:32.920
<v Speaker 1>Giant dune that you're hitting over.

0:52:32.960 --> 0:52:34.520
<v Speaker 3>You have no idea where the green is or where

0:52:34.560 --> 0:52:37.000
<v Speaker 3>your ball's going to land, but there's quite a lot

0:52:37.000 --> 0:52:38.000
<v Speaker 3>of fun and hiking up.

0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:39.720
<v Speaker 1>The hill to see what happened.

0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:41.919
<v Speaker 3>And you know, there's sort of a punch bowly green

0:52:41.960 --> 0:52:44.399
<v Speaker 3>on the other side that if you hit it decent,

0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:47.000
<v Speaker 3>helps gather you up and rewards you. So there's just

0:52:47.160 --> 0:52:48.799
<v Speaker 3>a ton of fun in that kind of golf in

0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:49.280
<v Speaker 3>my mind.

0:52:49.360 --> 0:52:50.600
<v Speaker 1>And we've we've.

0:52:50.440 --> 0:52:53.759
<v Speaker 3>Sort of partly because of parr, because everybody wants to

0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:57.120
<v Speaker 3>be able to make parr, the pros in particular, you know,

0:52:57.160 --> 0:52:59.239
<v Speaker 3>we've sort of you know, all those things have been

0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:01.240
<v Speaker 3>wiped out of any off you ever see the PGA

0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:05.120
<v Speaker 3>Tour play and you know, even though Royal and Ancient

0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:09.880
<v Speaker 3>has tamed an awful lot of things over the years

0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:13.680
<v Speaker 3>as a result of complaints that you couldn't really make

0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:14.239
<v Speaker 3>par there.

0:53:15.000 --> 0:53:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's one of those. You know, the more rules

0:53:17.719 --> 0:53:20.120
<v Speaker 2>you put on a golf course, the more likely you

0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:23.239
<v Speaker 2>are to get a kind of standardized product, which to

0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:25.200
<v Speaker 2>me is the opposite of what I want out of

0:53:25.200 --> 0:53:27.200
<v Speaker 2>a golf course. I want each golf course to be

0:53:27.719 --> 0:53:30.279
<v Speaker 2>radically unique, because that is the thing that is so

0:53:30.400 --> 0:53:32.920
<v Speaker 2>great about golf is that all of our playing fields

0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:36.160
<v Speaker 2>are different, and the more we try to standardize them,

0:53:36.640 --> 0:53:40.560
<v Speaker 2>the more we're kind of limiting what designers can do.

0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:43.960
<v Speaker 2>And the more we're limiting I think how fun the

0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:46.640
<v Speaker 2>game can be to play. And you know, par is

0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:50.719
<v Speaker 2>one of the big things that is limiting us right now,

0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and I just I want people to think about, like,

0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:56.600
<v Speaker 2>what are some of the most exciting holes on the

0:53:56.640 --> 0:54:00.600
<v Speaker 2>professional circuits to watch. Often it's the holes that exist

0:54:00.920 --> 0:54:06.360
<v Speaker 2>uncomfortably between categories of par It's the so called driveable

0:54:06.719 --> 0:54:09.439
<v Speaker 2>par four, or you could consider it a long par three.

0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:10.960
<v Speaker 2>But if it were a long par three, then the

0:54:11.000 --> 0:54:13.440
<v Speaker 2>pros that complained about it because they, you know, a.

0:54:13.520 --> 0:54:16.120
<v Speaker 1>Driving a three most of the time, right.

0:54:16.040 --> 0:54:18.719
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, they'd make more boteguse' And they're okay with a

0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.920
<v Speaker 2>drivable par four because they're making birdie a lot of

0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.600
<v Speaker 2>the time. But in any case, the lesson is that

0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:27.480
<v Speaker 2>these holes that are in between thirteen at Augusta, fifteen

0:54:27.480 --> 0:54:31.040
<v Speaker 2>at Augusta, the holes that just are the half par

0:54:31.160 --> 0:54:34.000
<v Speaker 2>holes as we've as we've come to call them, tend

0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:37.120
<v Speaker 2>to be the ones that are most compelling, most memorable

0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:37.600
<v Speaker 2>over time.

0:54:38.239 --> 0:54:40.040
<v Speaker 3>Well, and the other thing to me, Garrett, is, you know,

0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:42.600
<v Speaker 3>I feel like if I was asked to name the

0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:46.880
<v Speaker 3>most compelling golf tournament that I've watched in recent years,

0:54:47.520 --> 0:54:50.920
<v Speaker 3>I would name the President's Cup at Royal Melbourne. And

0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:54.960
<v Speaker 3>the other thing that I think we're forgetting, especially on

0:54:55.000 --> 0:54:58.000
<v Speaker 3>this side of the pond here, is that when the

0:54:58.040 --> 0:55:02.560
<v Speaker 3>ball bounces and rolls on predictably, and when the rough

0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:07.280
<v Speaker 3>is of an unpredictable character, then golf gets really really

0:55:07.360 --> 0:55:10.640
<v Speaker 3>exciting and the cream rises to the top. You know,

0:55:10.920 --> 0:55:15.760
<v Speaker 3>watching Tiger Woods out class every player on both sides

0:55:15.760 --> 0:55:19.600
<v Speaker 3>of that President's Cup at Royal Melbourne because he knew

0:55:19.640 --> 0:55:21.919
<v Speaker 3>how to move the ball along the ground and make

0:55:21.960 --> 0:55:23.879
<v Speaker 3>the shots that required is one of the coolest things

0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:28.160
<v Speaker 3>I've ever watched in golf. And you know, I just

0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:31.200
<v Speaker 3>feel like there's a big lesson in that. And you know,

0:55:31.320 --> 0:55:33.520
<v Speaker 3>even at Saint Andrews in the most recent Open, I

0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:35.919
<v Speaker 3>played it a month before the one hundred and fiftieth Open,

0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:38.440
<v Speaker 3>and there was rough everywhere, and I'm like, wait a minute,

0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:39.040
<v Speaker 3>what are they.

0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:39.759
<v Speaker 1>Doing, you know.

0:55:39.840 --> 0:55:43.319
<v Speaker 3>I mean, so, I just feel like we've lost a

0:55:43.320 --> 0:55:45.680
<v Speaker 3>little bit of sight of the idea of the excitement

0:55:45.719 --> 0:55:49.520
<v Speaker 3>of the ball of unpredictability, you know, and some of

0:55:49.520 --> 0:55:51.840
<v Speaker 3>this is brought on by tour players who want everything

0:55:51.880 --> 0:55:54.839
<v Speaker 3>to be predictable. But you know, when the ball runs

0:55:54.920 --> 0:55:58.160
<v Speaker 3>into crazy places, that's when golf is both fun to play,

0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:02.200
<v Speaker 3>maddening at times but fun, and also from the standpoint

0:56:02.200 --> 0:56:04.920
<v Speaker 3>of spectator entertainment, it's millions of times more fun.

0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:08.840
<v Speaker 2>All right, Thank you Steven for discussing this with me.

0:56:08.960 --> 0:56:11.759
<v Speaker 2>That was every bit as interesting as I thought it

0:56:11.800 --> 0:56:14.160
<v Speaker 2>would be. I'm glad that we got a chance to

0:56:14.239 --> 0:56:17.239
<v Speaker 2>do this podcast. Now. One thing I really admire about you,

0:56:17.320 --> 0:56:21.239
<v Speaker 2>Steven is that you're always working on a project or

0:56:21.280 --> 0:56:25.120
<v Speaker 2>two or three and really making headway on them. So

0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:27.040
<v Speaker 2>what are you working on right now? What should people

0:56:27.080 --> 0:56:27.440
<v Speaker 2>know about?

0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:30.719
<v Speaker 3>Well, I've finished one thing, which is I wrote a

0:56:30.800 --> 0:56:35.239
<v Speaker 3>magazine regarding the Old Tom Morris golf Trail, which includes

0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:39.239
<v Speaker 3>a large essay on Old Tom and his approach to

0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:42.200
<v Speaker 3>discovering golf in the natural landscape, as well as essays

0:56:42.200 --> 0:56:44.520
<v Speaker 3>on all the eighteen courses along the Old Tom Morse

0:56:44.520 --> 0:56:47.840
<v Speaker 3>trail that deal with their history, Tom's involvement and the

0:56:47.960 --> 0:56:49.239
<v Speaker 3>actual act of playing them.

0:56:49.840 --> 0:56:51.200
<v Speaker 1>So that comes out next June.

0:56:51.239 --> 0:56:52.920
<v Speaker 3>But the real big thing I'm working on is a

0:56:52.920 --> 0:56:56.400
<v Speaker 3>book about I really want to do something on the

0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:58.560
<v Speaker 3>early history of the women's game. In the course of

0:56:58.640 --> 0:57:01.319
<v Speaker 3>researching The Long Golden Afternoon we were talking about, I

0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:04.040
<v Speaker 3>started to realize the huge impact of the Ladies Golf

0:57:04.160 --> 0:57:07.319
<v Speaker 3>Union and my friend Michael Morrison, I think you've had

0:57:07.360 --> 0:57:09.880
<v Speaker 3>Michael on did a book about the Great English Golf

0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:13.120
<v Speaker 3>Boom that demonstrated that women's golf was actually growing faster

0:57:13.200 --> 0:57:15.880
<v Speaker 3>than men's golf through much of this period, which I

0:57:15.920 --> 0:57:17.200
<v Speaker 3>also find fascinating.

0:57:17.240 --> 0:57:19.360
<v Speaker 1>And then so I'm going to write.

0:57:19.200 --> 0:57:22.000
<v Speaker 3>A book about the early evolution of women's golf, but

0:57:22.360 --> 0:57:25.640
<v Speaker 3>the story will be built around the rivalry between American

0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:29.720
<v Speaker 3>Glenna Collette and Britain's.

0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:32.520
<v Speaker 1>Joyce Weathered, two of the really truly.

0:57:32.320 --> 0:57:36.720
<v Speaker 3>Immortal women golfers, and you know, their rivalry, which spans

0:57:36.720 --> 0:57:39.600
<v Speaker 3>a decade between nineteen twenty five and nineteen thirty five.

0:57:39.960 --> 0:57:44.360
<v Speaker 3>When Joyce comes to play in America, really paves the

0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:48.240
<v Speaker 3>way for the invention, the advent of the Ladies Professional

0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.040
<v Speaker 3>Golf Association which happens, like you know, fifteen years later.

0:57:53.040 --> 0:57:55.520
<v Speaker 3>But so that's what I'm working on now, and I'm

0:57:55.960 --> 0:57:58.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, it takes a year or so of intensive

0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:01.760
<v Speaker 3>reading and research to get to the point where you

0:58:01.760 --> 0:58:04.240
<v Speaker 3>can start writing. So I'm hoping to be able to

0:58:04.240 --> 0:58:05.160
<v Speaker 3>start writing in May.

0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:08.720
<v Speaker 2>All right, well, I'm looking forward to that project. Thanks

0:58:08.760 --> 0:58:10.480
<v Speaker 2>for coming on the podcast. Let's do it again soon.

0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:12.800
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for having me on GIAR you take care.

0:58:23.280 --> 0:58:26.160
<v Speaker 2>This episode of the Frida Egg Podcast was produced and

0:58:26.400 --> 0:58:30.360
<v Speaker 2>edited by Matt Ruschius. Thank you, Matt. There's one thing

0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:32.600
<v Speaker 2>that you can do right now that would really help

0:58:32.760 --> 0:58:35.640
<v Speaker 2>the Frida Egg Podcast, and that's to go to wherever

0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:38.520
<v Speaker 2>you're listening to us and give us a rating and

0:58:38.800 --> 0:58:42.440
<v Speaker 2>or review. My understanding is that the ratings and reviews

0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.600
<v Speaker 2>on the Apple Store are especially meaningful, So if you're

0:58:45.640 --> 0:58:49.080
<v Speaker 2>listening to us on an Apple podcast app, that would

0:58:49.080 --> 0:58:51.280
<v Speaker 2>be a great way to show some support of the

0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:54.120
<v Speaker 2>show and to give us some feedback on how we're

0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:56.880
<v Speaker 2>doing in the process. All right, that's it, Thank you

0:58:56.880 --> 0:58:58.720
<v Speaker 2>for listening, and we'll be back again soon

0:59:07.880 --> 0:59:18.880
<v Speaker 3>To s