WEBVTT - THE FIRST FORTUNE 500 BLACK WOMAN CEO w/ URSULA BURNS | Flashback 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.160 Enjoy this throwback episode of Black Tech, Green Money holiday season. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:06.560 You you know the board of your company when you 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:08.800 should know them, right and when you're sitting in the 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:11.680 C suite or or have some kind of a role 0:00:12.240 --> 0:00:14.800 that requires that you interface with them on a regular 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:19.320 basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.560 you will not become a member of the c suite 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.080 if you spend your time trying to get to know 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.680 your directors. You should try to spend your time getting 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.560 to know your job. I'm well, look as this is 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.560 Black Tech, Green Money, and I'm so excited to bring 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:36.160 you this episode because I was there in real time 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:40.319 when it happened. This is the conversation that happened at 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:45.080 Afro Tech Executive in Brooklyn, and it was with the CEO, 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:50.040 the former CEO of ze Rox, Miss Ursula Burns, who 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:55.200 was CEO of Xerox from two thousand nine. She was 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:58.560 the first black woman to be c O a Fortune 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.960 five company and the first woman to see another woman 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.520 as had of a Fortune five visual company. Sister you 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:11.800 all around. Most pertinent to today's conversation is her board roles. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.200 Miss Burns sat on the boards of directors for more 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:21.679 than fifteen companies, including Boston Scientific, University of Rochester, m 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:27.440 I T Corporation, American Express, Exim Mobile, Boolber, White Star, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.880 and more. During this conversation, which was held at a 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:35.760 pro tech executive Brooklyn, have you you had a recurring 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.120 theme you should not miss another apro tech executive. By 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.720 the way, we're gonna be in d C in a 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:44.840 couple of weeks. But anyway, back to today's conversation, she 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:49.000 thought we had the Higles, managing partner at Black Ops 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:53.880 Adventures and founder of path Right. If you have any interests, 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.600 listen to me. If you have any interest in one 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:01.880 day sitting on a corporate board, listen, keep your ears locked. 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.240 And if you want to build a big company, listen, 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.440 keep your ears locked. Because boards are where the decisions 0:02:09.480 --> 0:02:13.080 are made. Boards are where you where they decide if 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:15.280 you're gonna keep your job as CEO. As a matter 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:19.480 of fact, understanding how many work is the best thing 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.040 you can do with your next forty minutes more. Welcome 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:47.079 to Rsula Burns to see you. Welcome. Yeah, where's my cousin? 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:53.520 Where's your cousin? Let's wait wait, where is she? Hi? Cousin? 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.960 Thank you for being here. She's my cousin and I 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.560 always call her my niece because she's so much younger. Cousin. 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:06.480 How your girlfriend. Yeah, we're glad you're here. Hey, thank 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.600 you so much for being here today. You are again 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:12.400 one of these amazing pioneers that has paved the way 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.280 and been a model to folks like myself and all 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:17.240 the women in this room. So I want to start 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:19.679 by saying, thank you so much for everything you've done, 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:25.079 for being you. You know, I'm gonna give the real 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.520 brief version because you've done so much that we don't 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.120 have time to get into all that we want to 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:35.120 hear from you directly. Okay, Okay, we go, but you know, um, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:40.040 your your legendary position as the CEO of Xerox and 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.360 doing such a huge acquisition for them, and all the 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.520 other things that you've been doing. We want to hear 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:47.839 some of what you're doing today. UM. So I hope 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.280 we'll get into it. So thank you so much. UM. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.000 We The last question we ended on I thought was 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.440 very helpful, UM, which was, um, the question was is 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.600 it enough to be a black woman and be the 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.320 direct And Merlin's answer was absolutely not. And if if 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.480 a person selecting you for a board just because of 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:09.000 your demographics, that's not the board for you. So I 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:14.800 think from the CEO UM perspective, what do constructive value 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:19.239 add directors look like and how do they behave versus 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.960 somebody who's kind of taking up airspace and and not 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:25.200 helping the management team do their thing. Yeah, I heard 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.000 the question the last couple of questions, and I must 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.800 say I don't agree. Okay, I absolutely don't agree. Let's 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:34.720 say this all the time. First of all, no company 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:36.679 is going to come to you and say you're totally 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.039 not a knowledgeable about anything to do with business. But 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:42.200 but just because you happen to be black and a woman, 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:43.599 were going to put you on the board. So that 0:04:44.000 --> 0:04:46.520 I mean, that's just not a viable company. So that 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.240 I would, I would just that's not a thing that 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.040 I mean unless they're absolutely ding dongs, which you wouldn't 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:56.040 want to be with anyway. But so if they've come 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:58.000 to you, they found you, they look at some kind 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.840 of a profile and the reason why you are the 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.120 next person that they would pick is because you're a 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.240 black or a woman. I'd go just as quickly as 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.680 not for so long we have been excluded because of 0:05:10.720 --> 0:05:13.560 the way that we look. I absolutely tell you, I 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.719 say this all the time. It's about damn time that 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.520 we were included because of the way that we look. 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:24.640 So I absolutely okay. Now, this whole thing about being 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:30.080 on boards, I gotta say, this is the I've been 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.400 on It's not always crack up to be guys, be 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.919 careful here. I mean, it's good and it's fun and 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:39.000 it's all that stuff. You don't get anywhere near as 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.960 much money as you think. It takes a ton of time. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.880 It's not doesn't always take a ton of time, but 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:47.720 when it takes a ton of time, it takes a 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:50.240 lot of time. And you can't say things like I'm 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:53.000 busy like well, I mean that's the reason why you're 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.600 sitting here. We want you to be busy on this right, 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.880 not on other on other things. And sometimes it's just 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.080 it's not fun. I mean you you know, you go 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:06.360 on the boards of banks and insurance companies. Is that's 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:08.000 not your thing? You sit there and try to figure 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.240 out what that am I doing here? That's the and 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.560 then the last is the group of people that you're with. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:15.960 Forget the management team, but the directors. If they're not 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.640 worth your time. Don't go because you'll it just isn't 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.560 that much fun. It's the thing that we're all running 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:25.960 after now. But that thing has been run through by 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.680 white guys already, and now they're handing it to us 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.760 and saying, women and you can do it right, we're coming. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:38.440 So I I actually I like boards. Yeah, I like boards. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:40.720 I don't get me wrong. It's an important thing to do. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:44.240 If you can do it, you gotta be unbelievably selective. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.960 Unbelievably selective. I mean, what are you selecting for? First 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:49.280 of all, the team with people that you're gonna be 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:53.240 sitting around the table with the other directors. Yeah. The 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.680 second is the company. I mean, you know I've been 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.760 on What are they doing? I mean, if you're not 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:01.719 interested in what they're doing? You know some In the beginning, 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.560 of course, I was highly just like everybody else is here, 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.160 I want to be on one. So I picked a 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:13.600 road striping company. You know, they they picked me. I 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.960 didn't pick them. They picked me. I had been by 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.480 the way. It was. It was fun. I ended up 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.880 loving the guys. But the product, I mean it was 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.480 it was glass beads for road striping. And I learned 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:28.120 a lot from the company. But when they you know, 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.680 we would go on plant tours and oh what what 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.200 am I doing? So I'm making fun of it, but 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:40.160 be careful, be aware that this sounds great, but it 0:07:40.160 --> 0:07:41.760 takes a lot of time and a lot of energy, 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:44.240 and it takes a lot of your emotional time. And 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.760 you you know, you've got to read stuff beforehand. You 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.880 have to have some reason besides just saying I'm on one, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:52.280 that you want to be involved. The last thing I'll 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.360 say on this thing. If you can get on a 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.360 private company, go board a pre I p O board. 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.160 I would do it every single day before I go 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.920 on a public company board. Every day you get paid 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:05.720 more money, you get more involved in the company. The 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:10.560 chances of getting rich are better. In a public company. Literally, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:15.840 your compensation is contained and reported to everyone. Every single year. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.040 You can't make more than x l Y money dollars. 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:23.920 That's if you have one meeting or five meetings. Literally, 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:26.560 the same amount of money goes whether you have one 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.560 or five hundred. You never have one, right you have 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:31.360 six or seven. But somebody talked about this. If you're 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.360 in trouble, I want to board a X on Mobile. 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:38.880 X On Mobile just had a proxy fight. X on 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.160 Mobile has ten meetings a year normally proxy fight year. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.560 How about and you just do you have to do 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:48.880 them now? They make it a little bit easy for you. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:50.800 They've tried to find a time that you can do it. 0:08:50.880 --> 0:08:54.040 But it's not you know, it's not. It's not always 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:55.720 cracked up to be. I would, I would really be 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:58.719 careful about running after this one last thing. I keep 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:00.360 saying the last thing. There is no way you can 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.640 be on four or five boards. Literally, proxy firms like 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.439 last Lewis, etcetera won't vote for you. You will literally 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.439 it's not allowed. You have to be on a certain 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.400 number for your CEO. I was on three when I 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:16.360 was the CEO. Fortunately, two of them were easy, you know. 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.440 One of them was American Express, one of the best 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.720 round companies out there. Ken also amazing CEO. The board 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.719 was phenomenal, so you could actually do that, and you 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.240 can do another one that's not so. American Express was time, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:31.880 but easy time, if you know what I mean. It 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.040 was not a crisis. Another company that was on was 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.319 a crisis and I took a lot of time. And 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.040 then the third was in the middle. So it's not 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:41.480 the kind of thing that you do a lot of 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.800 and it's not you don't get rich and famous, little don't. Yeah, 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.880 I want to push back on that, on that last point. Um, 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:50.959 so you're on the board or have been on the 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:53.160 board of Uber. I'm still on the boarder was still 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.240 on the bo board of Uber. So they've gone through 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.640 a lot of stuff. Um, what's that been, like? How 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.400 does that work? And how I'm consuming is it? Well? 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:03.200 I was on the board of I got on the 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.880 board of Uber as an out come of the mess, Right, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.720 So I wasn't I didn't. I wasn't clean up. You 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.040 weren't in them. I wasn't clean up. Yeah, I wasn't 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.160 clean up. I was at the very I was the 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:18.520 last board member, myself and another guy named John than 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.480 who were put on by Travis. And if remember when 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.120 this whole thing blew up, Travis had three board seats 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.880 as part of his last fight. As part of his 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:31.480 last fight, he was one and he picked two others 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.280 myself and John were And then soon after that, did 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.160 you know, Travis, he just picked you out of the Yeah. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:39.760 I mean there's a lot of there's a whole bunch 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:41.680 of stories behind how you know, how you get picked 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:43.920 for this crap. But I'm trying to get the dirt 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:46.360 for y'all. I hope you appreciate this. Okay, you know 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.400 I'm trying. I'm trying, Morrigan. I'm at a point in 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.480 my life. This may sound like both. I'm on the 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.040 point in my life that I asked. I'm getting I 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.320 get asked every day to bet on the board or something. Right, 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.520 So it's now, But at that the end of the day, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:02.840 you say, well, then it's all because the money is 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.800 all pretty much locked. If you're public, it's pretty much 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.360 there's a very narrow band. So it's all you're picking 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.920 for then is the team of people and the content 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.640 of the company. It's not about the money. Unless if 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.360 private is better, like I keep saying, it's a it's 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.680 a little bit easier. There's definitely more upside um. You 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.760 learn a lot more because it's not as structured, so 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.720 you have you have to set it up yourself. You know. 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.000 Part of the part of going part of being private 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:31.840 to go public is this whole idea of structuring the government. 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:35.520 So anyway, yeah, I'm traveling. Uber turns out to be 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:41.280 a really, really, really great company. Okay, your experience is great. 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:43.719 That's what you're saying is there's everything about it now 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.000 is so they were in a lot of trouble, right 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:50.120 and they were, and it wasn't because of profitability. You know. 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.760 The story was this crazy place. Yeah, crazy culture, crazy leadership. 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.520 Actually probably maybe good at individual people. I never got 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.840 to know them, but together they were definitely not a 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.240 group of people that you want to hang out with 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:10.400 a whole lot. And we when we went in, the 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:14.760 board was being restructured for this disaster, and so the 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.320 company was aware. Travis was even aware who Travis, who 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.079 are like and respect and think he's smart. Like I said, 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:22.840 I don't think he could run a public company. That's 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.960 not his thing, right, he should have never gotten there. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:29.600 But um, I mean starting it is good. I mean 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:31.120 you just go there's a point where you go a 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.840 little bit too far and it's not your specialty and 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:35.840 you shouldn't really be engaged in it, and it's the 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:39.640 Peter principle. But anyway, when you get on. When we 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.480 got on, we realized quickly that this company was you know, 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:46.600 a small, small I p O company with a market 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.080 valuation of sixty billion dollars, it's not it's like a 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.240 this is not a game anymore, right, you had it, 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:54.599 So you have to actually adults in the room. And 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.280 so they got old adults in the room, myself and 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.280 John and some other people who knew about things. But 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.440 the thing that was interesting was that they were also 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.440 very aware that they were on the edge in every 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.920 country of being just like debarred that they were hated. Right, 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.640 they were used. They were part of it, but they 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.120 knew that if they didn't do something, it would be 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:20.120 a problem. So fortunately they we were bought on the 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.080 board the last two, but the whole board realized and 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.320 the management team we got to do something big, and 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.319 so we brought in the new CEO, Dara, who used 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.280 to run Expedia. He's amazing, he's really really good. This 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.120 is you know, he's the guy who I the firm, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.160 who I always look into when we went through the 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.120 Charles the George Floyd thing. And they're voting the first company, 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.920 the first company that signed up for everything without reading 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.839 the damn papers that I'm in and this and this 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.520 is the influence you have by being on that board 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.400 and talking to the CEO and making sure that they 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.679 can be responsive and what the kind of the kind 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:01.160 of multiplier effect that has when something like George Floyd happens. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.560 So that's the influence and impact you get to have 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.480 by being on that that Uber is good. Uber is 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.640 a cool company. Exit Mombile is a little bit more challenging. 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:13.920 It's very structured, very legal, it's very risky. You know. 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.240 It's just it has a big operation in Russia. So 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.160 now we're sitting here going, okay, now what you know 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:21.640 not what are you're doing? You can't go visit it. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.320 You can't you know, you have to get out. You 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.360 can't just leave because so you know it, it becomes 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.520 very complicated. So you gotta be aware that when the 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.720 good comes to bad, when the bad comes, you gotta 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.240 do the work. Do you select certain or do you 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.320 have certain committees that you only serve on or always, always, always, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.200 always every board that I'm on on on the Order 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.680 committee number one. Yeah, that that's where I started with 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:47.080 you to me, and I think it's such a good 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.120 learning experience, even for a company that's about to go public, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.640 knowing how you have to get everything in order, from 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.280 cybersecurity to your tax situation, all that has to be 0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.720 clean before you go public knowing how to do all 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.840 that stuff. From the audit perspective, if is every company 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.200 needs that, is that why, well, well I'm a I'm 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:08.080 with a sitting CEO, so I'm a certified financial expert, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:10.040 so I can do it. The problem with being on 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.560 the Order committee is that it's real work. This is 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.880 not I mean, I mean really like you have to 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.080 sign your name to stuff that I've read this, It's 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:23.040 not like. It's not like nominations and governance where you 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.760 can get which is now how we gonna let's not 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.680 slam Now I'm good. I take that very seriously. By 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:30.760 the way, Terry, now I'm gonna. But I was just 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:36.720 saying how important it is. Not not so four committees 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.720 what it is required. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.080 wants to do it. It's a lot. It's so if 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.760 there are seven board meetings in the year, they're ten 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.840 Order Committee meetings, right, So it's just a lot more work. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.240 It's it is if you're not into it, kind of boring. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.400 And if you're not good at it and don't just 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.120 don't do it. I mean, there's no reason to do it. 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:56.760 There's a lot of other things you can be doing, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.160 and I just happen to like it and and be 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.640 good at it. That's to reason. Nomanov is important, important, 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.640 and compensation is important. So the two rocking committees are 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.120 those two, right, Nominov which is a whole bunch of 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.200 glory and comp which everybody seems to like you because 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.640 you control that what salary the CEO and other people 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.720 and some people like that. But I think any committee, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:19.920 I think you know, any committee is fine. It's something 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.480 that you can be useful on, that you can contribute to. Okay, 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.480 now I tried to get you to answer this, but 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.240 I'm gonna try again. Which is that, um, having been 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.280 the CEO, I know that you've had favorite directors, or 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.320 at least favorite directors, and I want to know more 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.520 about that so that when they get on the boards 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.280 they know how to really Like I've been told by 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:44.800 the CEO, I'm his favorite director. Right now, I'm like, 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:47.080 I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I think 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.800 it helps that I've been a CEO and I know 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.320 how to not micromanage, you know, give him alerts about 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.600 whatever it is. But what from your perspective, what makes 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.240 for a great director? Knowing what their jobbers. One of 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.840 the one of the big challenges always every board I've 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.520 ever been on, small, big, private, public, there's at least 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.080 one director who actually wants to run the company and 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.879 who who actually act questions like you know, what was 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:20.440 the turnover of the popcorn, and it's like who that's 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.000 not That's something that's interesting that you should probably talk 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.560 to the CEO about over lunch, but it's not a 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:30.160 director level of question, and so knowing the most challenging 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.800 I've been CEO of two public companies. The most challenging 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:38.920 thing is a bad director. It is unbelievably bad. Um. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.800 It's very difficult for the CEO. It's usually very time 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.720 consuming for the rest of the board because they're generally 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.919 out of sync and a lot of you know, we 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.119 get down a lot of rabbit holes, and it's and 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.199 it's hard to get rid of a director. Once you 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:57.360 get them on. It's reputationally very challenging to just kind 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.199 of throw them off or you can't. You can't just 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.280 throw them off, and it's just very it's a very 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.120 challenging thing. So the first thing is to make sure 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.080 that you know what your what your job is, and 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.199 it's generally not to run the place. And if it is, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.240 if you are trying to run the place, to see, 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:13.119 you should probably be changed. I mean, you've got the 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.199 wrong boss. So that's what that person's job is. The 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:18.480 other thing is it did someone just asshole personalities that 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.240 you just don't want to be part of. And everybody 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.200 has a different swing lane that they're into, So let's 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:25.960 make sure that's why it's really important to the the group 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.960 that is there already, Just make sure that you like 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:32.800 the group that's there. Okay, that's very helpful. Now for 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.280 people who are still coming up in their careers and 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:40.000 they want to, um get experience to know how to 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.120 interface with directors and and that sort of thing. Um, 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:45.960 are there things that they should do to know the 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.920 boards of director, like the directors on their company or 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.959 anything like that. Okay, Okay, to be away from this 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:54.479 is okay, it's a bad thing. Stay away from this. 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.119 You you know, the board of your company when you 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:00.359 should know them, right and when you're think in the 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.240 c suite or or have some kind of a role 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.399 that requires that you interface with them on a regular 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:10.920 basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.160 you will not become a member of the c suite. 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:14.679 If you spend your time trying to get to know 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.280 your directors, you should try to spend your time getting 0:19:17.280 --> 0:19:21.800 to know your job, right because it's it is really, really, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.480 really risky. This is not a game of politics at 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.320 this level, right, they are governed into your operations. When 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.520 you get in the governance, then there's a lot of politics. 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:34.639 But you can't play politics when you're the surf and 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:36.879 they're the king, right, So it's not the kind of 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.400 thing that that you do. You should just stay this 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:42.439 is becoming right, So we spend we're gonna spend twenty 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.120 five minutes talking about boards of directors where the vast 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.400 majority of people in this room will never serve on one. Right. 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:50.359 Before you do that, you got to get to the 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.040 point where people say, yeah, we want that person to 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.280 serve on one. And the way that you get there 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.400 is that you have to actually do work that somebody 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:03.960 says that's reasonable. That's a person who's being the CFO 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.560 of some company is a really good idea. It's a 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.440 good it's a good checkpoint so you can get through. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.080 Being the CEO obviously is a really good idea. If 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.240 you have some really specific tech skill. If you're a 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.280 master at cybersecurity, if you're good at digital marketing, or 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.760 are one of these things, then you can be selected. 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.399 But if you're just an employee of a company, just 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.840 it's not a bit justice, not a demeaning just it's 0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:34.800 just like just um, if you're that, you know, spending 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.200 your time to try to maneuver your way into the boardroom, 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.920 it's really not the most useful. It's not the most 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.639 useful thing. I if I could say over and over again, Guys, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.640 when it comes, it will come. Look for it. Don't 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.000 spend your time not looking, you know, look for it occasionally. 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:49.760 When it comes, it will come, and you'll be ready. 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.680 If you get there before you're ready, it's a waste 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.440 of goddamn time. It's not that much money, and it's 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.400 it's it's just it's yeah, And it's not that much 0:20:57.440 --> 0:20:59.879 fame and fortune unless you get unless you get on 0:20:59.920 --> 0:21:03.920 the board of um, Apple, Amazon, let's talk to there's 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.480 probably fifteen companies that you if you can get on 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.880 the board of Airbnb before it goes, you know, those 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:13.240 kinds of companies. Yeah, that's great. Otherwise it's just otherwise 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:16.440 you're an unsung hero. It's for your gratification. Okay, it's 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:22.399