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Speaker 2: You know, there's another worry for Wall Street the safe
Speaker 2: haven status of US treasures, and add to that, even
Speaker 2: the US dollar could be in question. Let's discuss now
Speaker 2: with the Bloomberg Intelligence Chief antest rates strategist, Ira Jersey.
Speaker 2: He's joining us from our offices in Princeton, New Jersey. Hi, Ira,
Speaker 2: is this really a thing?
Speaker 3: So first, I'm actually working from home today. Someone has
Speaker 3: to walk the dog while my kids are on spring
Speaker 3: break because I had to cancel my spring break thanks
Speaker 3: to everything that's going on.
Speaker 2: I have a feeling you're to be working this weekend.
Speaker 3: I have no doubt the Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think it is a big worry. Right.
Speaker 3: So, if if we're not exporting as many dollars because
Speaker 3: of you know, trade imbalances getting more in line, then
Speaker 3: the incentive for other, for overseas investors to buy US
Speaker 3: treasuries goes down somewhat. And I think that is, at
Speaker 3: least the market action seems like that may be what's
Speaker 3: happening now. Unfortunately, we won't get the data to confirm
Speaker 3: that for like six or eight weeks, and so a
Speaker 3: lot of this is speculative. But the market action does
Speaker 3: suggest that that foreign investors, particularly foreign private investors, are
Speaker 3: lightening up on their US dollar risk. And I think
Speaker 3: also US domestic investors are probably thinking that those foreign
Speaker 3: investors will be taking those actions, so therefore they also
Speaker 3: lighten up in those same parts of the yield curve.
Speaker 3: So I think this is pretty rational, you know, and
Speaker 3: these moves are big, John, But I have to say
Speaker 3: something I've been looking at this morning is comparing this
Speaker 3: to March of twenty twenty two and May of twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: And what you see is this is on the magnitude
Speaker 3: of those periods of time, and interestingly, interest rates are
Speaker 3: higher now, so actually in dollar price terms, bond prices
Speaker 3: are going down slower than they were back in twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two and twenty thirteen. So again it's a huge move,
Speaker 3: don't get me wrong, And it's something that you need
Speaker 3: to pay attention to and have to figure out when
Speaker 3: it's going to end. But it's not like it's not
Speaker 3: insane in a historical context.
Speaker 4: So foreign investors selling out of treasuries, how I guess
Speaker 4: how big of a deal is that? How much do
Speaker 4: treasury holders need to be concerned about?
Speaker 2: And how many you know, how much do the foreign
Speaker 2: investors have in their holdings right in US treasuries?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so in aggregate, about one third of the treasury
Speaker 3: market is held outside of the United States. Now, some
Speaker 3: of that's in hedge funds and the like. So actually
Speaker 3: the beneficial owners of those hedge funds might be Americans, right,
Speaker 3: but you still have a signific and portion that's held
Speaker 3: by foreign central banks, by insurance companies, pension funds, and
Speaker 3: sovereign wealth funds that that that these countries are going
Speaker 3: to make decisions and the companies are going to make
Speaker 3: decisions that that that hold these securities as to what
Speaker 3: they're going to do in going forward. Now, I suspect
Speaker 3: a lot of the the insurance companies and pensions that
Speaker 3: might hold US treasury securities, their first step is not
Speaker 3: going to be to actually go out and outright sell.
Speaker 3: But if they're not buyers, then someone else has to
Speaker 3: become the incremental buyer and to become the incremental buyer.
Speaker 3: That means that the securities involved have to cheap and
Speaker 3: probably the lower in a new buyer base. So that
Speaker 3: means you have higher yields, lower dollar prices, and more
Speaker 3: volatility in the market. And I suspect that all of
Speaker 3: this is happening in very short order. You know, meanwhile,
Speaker 3: this is happening in a time when when when securities dealers,
Speaker 3: you know, the large primary dealers are very full of securities.
Speaker 3: In fact, just two weeks ago they had the most
Speaker 3: held the most treasury securities they've ever held in their history.
Speaker 3: So another reason for some of this volatility, I think
Speaker 3: is just that they're full, right, they just don't want
Speaker 3: to take more treasury risk without cheapening up the market
Speaker 3: because they already own a lot of them.
Speaker 2: Well, what did the auctions this wee? We had thirties
Speaker 2: yesterday and what was a two years? Threes, tens and threes? Okay,
Speaker 2: what did the take up there tell you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was those were among the more interesting
Speaker 3: auctions that we've had. You know, auctions are really boring
Speaker 3: until they're not, and you know, this week certainly did
Speaker 3: not have any boring auctions. So so Tuesday, we had
Speaker 3: a three year auction and that that was pretty pretty abysmal.
Speaker 3: Quite frankly, it was one of the worst three year
Speaker 3: auctions that we've had, you know, since twenty twenty and
Speaker 3: the so I think what happened after that, and one
Speaker 3: of the reasons you saw the markets very volatile thereafter
Speaker 3: was there were dealers and other investors who tried to
Speaker 3: make room so basically manage your portfolio, so they were
Speaker 3: able to bid for the longer duration, higher risk assets
Speaker 3: later in the week. And so the tenure on Wednesday
Speaker 3: and the and the thirty year yesterday actually went really well.
Speaker 3: We have a grading system that we use, you know,
Speaker 3: DTA A plus, and yesterday's while the three year got
Speaker 3: a D, the ten year got an A plus and
Speaker 3: the thirty year got an A, so, you know, really
Speaker 3: solid auctions. They had very good bitterer metrics, there were
Speaker 3: a lot of people involved, but also didn't stick. And
Speaker 3: I think that that's another a worrying sign in terms
Speaker 3: of where the market might head to and in terms
Speaker 3: of yields, yields might continue to move higher because even
Speaker 3: though you had strong auctions, a lot of times strong
Speaker 3: auctions turn the market and that that turn in the
Speaker 3: market to lower yields did not stick by any stretch
Speaker 3: of the imagination, and you're seeing the follow on from
Speaker 3: that today.
Speaker 2: That's the smart money, Ira Jersey, Bloomberg Intelligence, see if
Speaker 2: the US interest rates strategist always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Ira, you're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch US
Speaker 1: Live weekdays at ten am Eastern on Apple, Cocklay and
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Speaker 2: So C plus G plus. I. You know that formula.
Speaker 2: It adds up to growth in the United States or
Speaker 2: lack of growth. Gdp C is the consumer Joe Ann
Speaker 2: Shou the director of the University of Michigan surveys of consumers.
Speaker 2: Joe and the latest data at the top of the hour,
Speaker 2: how are the consumers feeling?
Speaker 5: They are not feeling great about the outlook of the economy.
Speaker 5: We've had multiple consecutive months now of sentiment and particularly
Speaker 5: expectations really taking a nosedive. Consumers are seeing weaknesses on
Speaker 5: many different dimensions of the economy, business conditions, personal finances,
Speaker 5: their own incomes, inflation, labor markets. This is something that
Speaker 5: should be very concerning.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit more about just how backward
Speaker 4: looking is this data, how much is it incorporating the
Speaker 4: recent tariff I guess flip flopping that we've been seeing
Speaker 4: this week.
Speaker 5: So we started collecting data about two and a half
Speaker 5: weeks ago for this release and we closed on Tuesday.
Speaker 5: So it captures the April second announcement of the reciprocal tariffs,
Speaker 5: but does not include the reversal, the partial reversal that
Speaker 5: happened on Wednesday of this week. It's pretty clear that
Speaker 5: every single time over the last few months we've seen
Speaker 5: a tariff announcement or a change in tariff policy, escalation
Speaker 5: of tariff's, consumer sentiment has taken a dip, and inflation
Speaker 5: expectations have gone up, but we have actually haven't seen
Speaker 5: much relief come when those tariff announcements.
Speaker 2: Are reversed or tariffs or are reversed.
Speaker 5: Or taken back. So it's not really clear how much
Speaker 5: relief consumers are actually going to feel from Wednesday's announcement,
Speaker 5: particularly given that tariffs with China remains sky high.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the one year inflation expected these are ipoppers six
Speaker 2: point seven percent. That's the one year, the longer term.
Speaker 2: The five tier to ten year inflation expectation four point
Speaker 2: four percent. That's about the prior reading it, just a
Speaker 2: tenth of a percent higher than what the survey was for.
Speaker 2: Are these sort of self fulfilling prophecies?
Speaker 5: They can be, so when people expect higher inflation in
Speaker 5: the future, they may believe that you should buy big
Speaker 5: things now in order to avoid those price increases in
Speaker 5: the future. And indeed we're seeing a lot of news
Speaker 5: stories about people stockpiling, but we see this more broadly
Speaker 5: than that. In November, as soon as the election finished,
Speaker 5: a lot of people were expecting Trump to go ahead
Speaker 5: and implement more aggressive tariff policy when inaugurated, and so
Speaker 5: many consumers were telling us on the interviews back in
Speaker 5: November and December, now is the right time to buy
Speaker 5: a car, to buy durable goods, because you're going to
Speaker 5: get hit by high prices in the future. And indeed
Speaker 5: we saw robust sales figures in Q four for exactly
Speaker 5: that reason. One of the things that helps prevent things
Speaker 5: from becoming a self fulfilling prophecy on the inflation front
Speaker 5: is that consumers feel so weak on other elements of
Speaker 5: the economy. Their income expectations are down, and they're worried
Speaker 5: they're going to lose their jobs, and so they might
Speaker 5: not rewilling to front load their purchases that they might
Speaker 5: otherwise might otherwise have done, And they don't really have
Speaker 5: the support for the robust consumer spending that we saw
Speaker 5: in the years following the pandemic.
Speaker 2: In like thirty seconds, what's the history of consumer spending
Speaker 2: following numbers like this? Do they really do pull back?
Speaker 5: Typically they pull back, and it's a high probability this time,
Speaker 5: particularly because higher income consumers are feeling just as dour
Speaker 5: as their lower income counterparts, and higher and come consumers
Speaker 5: generate so much of consumer spending.
Speaker 2: Right, Joey and always a pleasure appreciated, Join and show
Speaker 2: the director of the University of Michigan surveys of consumers
Speaker 2: again the Universe City of Michigan Sentiment Index fifty point eight.
Speaker 2: The survey expectation was for fifty three point eight. Those
Speaker 2: are not good numbers.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence Podcast. Catch us live
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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever
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Speaker 2: I'm John Tucker along with Emily GRIFFEO. We were in
Speaker 2: for Paul and Alex Bloomberg Intelligence today. You know, volatility
Speaker 2: drives everybody else crazy, drives me crazy, but it's actually
Speaker 2: good for banks. Alison Williams this our banking analysts from
Speaker 2: BI Allison just how did the banks do based on
Speaker 2: market volatility and trading?
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 7: So trading really knocking it out of the park at
Speaker 7: JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley really setting up the bar
Speaker 7: for Goldman on Monday. But we saw you know, gains
Speaker 7: of almost by half equities training, so that's benefiting from
Speaker 7: the volatility. I would say, you know, fees fit was
Speaker 7: a little bit like in line to weaker. You know,
Speaker 7: fees were fine, but we know that there's risk ahead there.
Speaker 6: We actually saw some.
Speaker 2: We say fixed You got to explain it to people
Speaker 2: who think, like you know, a German Shepherd fixed income currency.
Speaker 7: So trading rates, trading credit, currency and commodities.
Speaker 2: All right, So I want to go to loan loss
Speaker 2: provisions for some of the major banks because that's kind
Speaker 2: of an indication what they think about what's ahead for
Speaker 2: the economy and the consumer.
Speaker 7: It is and that was really the key thing that
Speaker 7: we were looking for this quarter, and what you saw
Speaker 7: was JP Morgan about a billion dollars of loss reserve building,
Speaker 7: and that's really looking at the economic uncertainty ahead. So
Speaker 7: keep in mind, we have not seen any we're not
Speaker 7: really seeing signs of weakness yet. In fact, if anything,
Speaker 7: well a little bit of front loading on the consumer
Speaker 7: or retail. Analysts ANDBI have been talking about that. But
Speaker 7: JP Morgan, you know, being conservative and guess what those
Speaker 7: trading gains we just talked about. That's how they can
Speaker 7: afford to be conservative because their trading upside was about
Speaker 7: a half a billion. They also had a gain related
Speaker 7: to First Republic, remember that acquisition from a.
Speaker 6: Couple of years ago.
Speaker 7: So basically after some conversations with the government, they recognize
Speaker 7: the gain there. So those two items really helping them
Speaker 7: to fund that conservative.
Speaker 6: Look. By contrast, Wells Fargo did not.
Speaker 7: We did not see the same trend, and you see
Speaker 7: the stocks sort of reacting to these today because what
Speaker 7: this means is that JP Morgan has less earnings risk
Speaker 7: if things do deteriorate, where as well as Fargo is
Speaker 7: not as well prepared with the provision building.
Speaker 2: Emily, as you pointed out, this doesn't even capture the
Speaker 2: volatility that we just saw recently.
Speaker 4: Right, this week is the historic week. We had a
Speaker 4: fifth day in a row marking last week of yesterday
Speaker 4: of an inter day range of more than six percent
Speaker 4: for the S and P five hundred. We haven't seen
Speaker 4: a streak like that since COVID and the global financial crisis.
Speaker 4: What did we get though, from.
Speaker 6: Just the outlook?
Speaker 4: I mean, Jamie Diamond has been pretty vocal about his
Speaker 4: economic outlook. Did we get any guidance from these banks
Speaker 4: about what to expect? So?
Speaker 7: I think it's prepare for the unexpected, right, And so
Speaker 7: I think that's what you know. Jamie Diamond is known
Speaker 7: for giving his views, but he's also known for saying, look,
Speaker 7: this is how we manage the bank.
Speaker 6: We prepare for the worst.
Speaker 7: And so I think that that's what we saw today
Speaker 7: was there were a few items that helped them to
Speaker 7: set aside this money depending on what happens. And you know,
Speaker 7: as you pointed out, we saw lots of we've seen
Speaker 7: lots of trading, We've seen lots of volatility. Expectations are
Speaker 7: that we're going to continue to see or could continue
Speaker 7: to see a benefit at least based on what we've
Speaker 7: seen in April US cash equities volumes, I mean really
Speaker 7: setting new records. And the question is that when it
Speaker 7: comes to the end of the quarter in June, you know,
Speaker 7: will we be closer to some certainty around tariffs. If so,
Speaker 7: we can get those reserves back so they can release
Speaker 7: those back into earnings.
Speaker 2: Am I right when I say Wells Fargo is more
Speaker 2: sort of consumerly related?
Speaker 6: So Wells Fargo does not have that.
Speaker 7: You know, they have a trading business which also participated,
Speaker 7: but certainly not to the size of JP Morgan, who is,
Speaker 7: you know, one of the leaders in equities trading, the
Speaker 7: leader in FIIC trating by revenue. On the Wells Fargo
Speaker 7: side of things, we actually did see that interesting coome
Speaker 7: coming in a little softer. We also saw non interesting
Speaker 7: come coming in a little softer and some sighting of
Speaker 7: weaker loan demand, and so I think those are also
Speaker 7: contributing to some weakness and the shares.
Speaker 2: Okay, because at the top of the hour, we took
Speaker 2: to the University of Michigan sentiments survey, and that looks
Speaker 2: like consumers that just might be raining, and that's the
Speaker 2: signal there, So what is that going to mean going
Speaker 2: forward for Wells Fargo.
Speaker 7: So, for Wells Fargo and for JP Morgan, certainly not
Speaker 7: good right to the extent that sentiment stops consumers from
Speaker 7: making purchases, going on those trips, et cetera. And as
Speaker 7: I said, you know and JP Morgan I think alluded
Speaker 7: to this, there has been a little frontload of spending.
Speaker 7: All that being said, the credit card business, which is
Speaker 7: the highest loss ratio business and can be sort of
Speaker 7: the most susceptible to discretionary spending, is a much bigger
Speaker 7: business for JP Morgan.
Speaker 6: On the commercial side of.
Speaker 7: Things, where I think you have seen I think already
Speaker 7: some stagger and activity in terms of businesses like you know,
Speaker 7: not executing on things.
Speaker 6: They would have.
Speaker 7: Wells Fargo has a little bit more exposure to those
Speaker 7: sort of traditional businesses as a mix of their business,
Speaker 7: just because they are more focused on the bread and
Speaker 7: butter lending.
Speaker 4: What about deal making because coming into the year, a
Speaker 4: lot of sources I spoke to you said this is
Speaker 4: going to be a big year for investment banking because
Speaker 4: Trump will be supportive of that environment. What did we
Speaker 4: see in these ere.
Speaker 6: Yes, So a couple of things there.
Speaker 7: To your point, coming into the year, I think everyone
Speaker 7: was excited. We've been talking about this investment banking feever, recovery.
Speaker 7: Bankers have been looking forward to that. M and A
Speaker 7: also benefiting from some of the lesser you know, a
Speaker 7: lighter regulatory environment as you spoke of, but we really
Speaker 7: have not seen the benefit of that, and that is,
Speaker 7: you know, largely due to CEO sentiment and having a
Speaker 7: view towards the future really does impact M and A right,
Speaker 7: because if you think the value of your business could
Speaker 7: significantly change in the next few months, or if you
Speaker 7: think something a business that you want to purchase could
Speaker 7: be a significantly different in value, chances are you're probably
Speaker 7: going to pause.
Speaker 6: And that's what we've seen on the M and A front.
Speaker 7: Equities IPOs also we saw that started strong in January,
Speaker 7: completely stalled out. We see all these deals on hold
Speaker 7: debt fees actually the one area where you're continuing to
Speaker 7: see some strength, but again the volatility early this quarter
Speaker 7: is likely to hamper all of that revenue.
Speaker 2: I get like forty five seconds left so Monday, what's up?
Speaker 6: So Monday? And this more about bragging rights than anything.
Speaker 7: We'll be looking to see if Goldman can increase their
Speaker 7: trading revenue by at least twenty five percent to keep
Speaker 7: them starting at the top of the trio. But I
Speaker 7: would fully expect that they are going to participate in
Speaker 7: the equity derivatives trading ran Brokeridge that really drove those
Speaker 7: forty to five to fifty percent gains at JP Morgan
Speaker 7: and Morgan Stanley. Well, so we expect better trading, fix trading,
Speaker 7: maybe in line fees probably a bit weaker. They are
Speaker 7: typically the leader in M and A, so that is
Speaker 7: going to war them a little bit.
Speaker 6: What happened on the.
Speaker 7: Compensation front, we did see Morgan Stanley with Severn charges
Speaker 7: that sort of confirmed some of the things we saw
Speaker 7: from Bloomberg News that they were letting bankers go because.
Speaker 6: We're not seeing that fee recovery, as you noted.
Speaker 2: All right, Alison, thanks a lot.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Intelligence podcast. Catch us live
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Speaker 2: Mirror Mirror on the wall. Who's the biggest asset manager
Speaker 2: of them?
Speaker 4: All, and the stock is in the green.
Speaker 2: Black Rock Neil Sides Bloomberg Intelligence Financials and Analys follows Blackrock.
Speaker 2: The metric we care about is it the assets under management.
Speaker 8: It is the assets under management. Almost more importantly now,
Speaker 8: the bigger that Blackrock gets is the organic growth, and
Speaker 8: that's sort of measuring the net new assets that are
Speaker 8: coming into Blackrocks funds. And that's the question investors have
Speaker 8: always had, is the bigger they get, the harder it
Speaker 8: is to continue to grow at the pace that they
Speaker 8: have been over a long period of time. And what
Speaker 8: we've seen is that sort of five percent growth that
Speaker 8: Blackrock has consistently put up, which by the way, is
Speaker 8: well above the industry. That's break even or one to
Speaker 8: two percent. That continues to be the case. In the
Speaker 8: first quarter it was a little bit light. It does
Speaker 8: appear that a lot of that had to do with
Speaker 8: perhaps some institutional rebalancings to start the year and perhaps
Speaker 8: some impacts later in the quarter.
Speaker 4: But aum up eleven percent year over year, eleven zero
Speaker 4: point five eight trillion dollars assets under management.
Speaker 2: After wow, this is like what strike looms like me or
Speaker 2: like the big guys whose money is it?
Speaker 8: It's certainly both its institutional and retail dollars. You talked
Speaker 8: about the growth rate in assets under management. You know,
Speaker 8: they highlighted on the call today that sixty percent of
Speaker 8: that AUM growth is actually from new dollars. Right, So
Speaker 8: if you measure markets versus a year ago, I think
Speaker 8: you're still going to see that we're up. But you know,
Speaker 8: importantly they're continuing to garner assets from their clients over time.
Speaker 8: And as we look forward in a much choppier environment
Speaker 8: into April and frankly, who knows what's coming down the
Speaker 8: road in the next few weeks, that organic growth becomes
Speaker 8: increasingly more important. And that's something that Blackrock has shown
Speaker 8: in periods of dislocation. You look back at twenty twenty,
Speaker 8: you look back at the challenging environment in twenty two,
Speaker 8: when the FED started increasing rates, blackrocks five percent. Organic
Speaker 8: growth continued through that cycle. When you looked at competitors
Speaker 8: that have less of a bread across the spectrum of
Speaker 8: asset classes and products could not keep up.
Speaker 2: Do they have like a fund for everybody?
Speaker 8: I mean, they'll have a fund for everybody pretty much,
Speaker 8: touching any asset class, any region, any geography that you.
Speaker 2: Want, and those are all They're not all ETFs, or
Speaker 2: are they They.
Speaker 8: Won't all be ETFs, but increasingly that's where investors want
Speaker 8: to allocate their dollars. Obviously that's become a very priced
Speaker 8: competitive product. The value for money, we know, that's a
Speaker 8: trend that's been in asset management for the past decade
Speaker 8: plus is the flows are increasingly traveling towards the funds
Speaker 8: that have the lowest cost associated with them. If you
Speaker 8: look inside the ETF category, you know, over the past
Speaker 8: decade we've seen you know, two thirds plus of all
Speaker 8: flows into ETFs are going to that low fee bucket
Speaker 8: between zero and ten basis points. So increasingly we're following
Speaker 8: the trend to zero here.
Speaker 4: Wouldn't that impact their margins eventually?
Speaker 2: Are you saying that they're eventually going to have zero
Speaker 2: fees now?
Speaker 8: So there are already are some funds out there that
Speaker 8: are of course, how black Rock make money?
Speaker 4: How do they make money if their fund is you know.
Speaker 8: As my ETF colleague Eric Balchunas likes to highlight, this
Speaker 8: product can sort of you know, at this scale, there's
Speaker 8: always going to be you know, profitability for someone like
Speaker 8: black Rock that is sort of why you don't see
Speaker 8: some smaller players being so successful making a foray into
Speaker 8: the ETF spaces. You have to compete with someone that's
Speaker 8: willing to beat you on price. And ultimately, as you
Speaker 8: think about, you know, the trajectory of ETFs, yes we're
Speaker 8: going to zero, but there are more thematic products coming
Speaker 8: out that can sort of charge that forty to fifty
Speaker 8: basis point fee that you would see akin to an
Speaker 8: active fund. And that's sort of you know, the push
Speaker 8: pull and sort of the barbell strategy that you see
Speaker 8: across the industry is having scale in the small loaf,
Speaker 8: in the large low fee products, but also pushing into
Speaker 8: those higher fee private markets areas.
Speaker 4: What keeps Larry Fink up at night?
Speaker 8: Then I look, I think, you know constantly, are you
Speaker 8: there with him?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you.
Speaker 8: Know, I wish I had the perfect answer for that,
Speaker 8: but I think, you know, how to navigate sort of
Speaker 8: an environment like this is always something that he is
Speaker 8: going to be discussing with clients that he's meeting. You know,
Speaker 8: he's talked about how clients are you know, sort of repositioning,
Speaker 8: how they added twenty billion dollars or two percent growth
Speaker 8: to money market funds on black Rocks platform in the
Speaker 8: past week plus in April, so they're increasingly sort of
Speaker 8: de risking, taking a pause, reassessing where they want to
Speaker 8: reallocate their dollars, and ultimately, if there is sort of
Speaker 8: a seat change of the US exceptionalism which had been
Speaker 8: garnering all the flows and all the assets over time,
Speaker 8: if Europe and other regions become more attractive. We know
Speaker 8: that Blackrock has positioning with those types of funds as well,
Speaker 8: but we'll have to see how that shakes out over
Speaker 8: the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 2: They're the biggest, Who's who's the next biggest?
Speaker 8: You probably put Vanguard right next to him up there.
Speaker 4: And you know, Vanguard's cheaper than Blackrock. You look across
Speaker 4: their averaget.
Speaker 2: I mean, how close are they racing to like.
Speaker 8: You know, oh yeah, yeah, I mean I I think
Speaker 8: if you've stacked them ETF first ETF, they're almost identical
Speaker 8: in the space, and increasingly that speaks to that price
Speaker 8: competition that we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Thanks Neil Neil Seins, the Bloomberg Intelligence financial analyst who follows,
Speaker 2: among other things, black Rock.
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