1 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's a winter's day in twenty eighteen. Paul Murphy 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: is standing in front of the mirror of the gents 3 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: lavatory at work. He's changing for lunch. 4 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 2: Kind of stopped wearing ties, but I think I put 5 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: a tie on for that occasion. 6 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: Paul is in his mid fifties. He's got a slightly 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: grizzled look about him. You wouldn't pick him out in 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: a crowd, but that's an advantage in his line of work. 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: In his hands, Paul is holding a small silver disc 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: about the size of a penny. He takes his shirt off, 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: grabs a piece of medical tape and fixes this disk 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: onto his shoulder because this disc is a tiny microphone. 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: He slips his white shirt back on, puts a jacket 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: on top, and with one last glance in the mirror, 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: he's ready for lunch. Paul is the head of investigations 16 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:08,199 Speaker 1: at the Financial Times in London. He takes a cab 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: across town to Mayfair to a venue called forty five 18 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Park Lane. 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 2: It's it's you know, it's one of those places that 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: is priced to keep out to ordinary people. 21 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 3: You know. 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 2: It's all glass windows and bling and mirrored interiors and 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: very few customers, very few. It's Dubai style essentially. As 24 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: Paul walks in, he tries to keep his cool. Despite 25 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: four decades in journalism, this is a first for him. 26 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: He's never actually worn a wire himself. It's very very 27 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: nerve wrecking. You know, I've got a bug on me. 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't want our undercover team to get discovered. 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 2: That would be hugely embarrassing, so I was, you know, 30 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: it's nervous. 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: The maitre d escort's Paul across the room, and there, 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: rising from his chair, smiling courteously and greeting poor with 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: a handshake, is the man he's come to meet, jan Marcelek. 34 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: Very slim, athletic build, razor sharp blue suit. 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: Paul came here to set a trap to get this 36 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: successful businessman on tape, but by the time they finished 37 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: their meal, he wonders if he's the one who has 38 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: walked into a trap. 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: If I'm honest, I felt a bit amateurish. You know, 40 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: we were out of our depth. This guy was very 41 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: very slick, controlled, careful, polished, and you know I'm not. 42 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: My name is Sam Jones, and I'm a journalist with 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: the Financial Times. I'm a foreign correspondent based in Central Europe. 44 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: This lunch you've just heard about. It's the unexpected beginning 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: of an investigation that has, in one way or another 46 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: preoccupied me for the past five years. At the center 47 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: of it is the man in the sharp blue suit, 48 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: Yan Marceilek, a man who I discovered is so fascinated 49 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: by risk and deceit that one identity, one life wasn't 50 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: enough for him. I find it's often people like this, 51 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: the most unusual, people who reveal universal truths, the fact 52 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: that we're all inventors of our own personal narratives, how 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: fictions can be stitched together to create realities. This tale 54 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: begins in London and Munich, but leaps across the globe, 55 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: from Libya to Austria, from Bulgaria to Afghanistan, from the 56 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: Court Azure to Moscow. Yan Marceles life is a window 57 00:03:56,080 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: into a hidden world of geopolitical power games, games which 58 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: in ways big and small, govern our lives, Games which 59 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,839 Speaker 1: have never felt more relevant or the players of them 60 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: harder to fathom. This is a story about espionage, about Europe, 61 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: about Russia, and ultimately America. From the Financial Times and 62 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. This is Hot Money Season three, Agent of Chaos, 63 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: Episode one, The Bride. Paul Murphy hired me to work 64 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 1: for the Ft seventeen years ago. It's been a long 65 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: time since Paul's my actual boss, but he was and 66 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: still is a mentor to me. All of my best 67 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: habits in journalism and some of my worst ones I've 68 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: picked up from Paul too much since starting my career. 69 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: Every couple of months or so, I end up at 70 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: lunch with him in Sweetings. It's a noisy, crowded fish 71 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: restaurant deep in the city, London's financial district. It's distinctly 72 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: old school. Even a bowler hat wouldn't look out of place, 73 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: and coming here it underscores less than number one in 74 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: the Paul Murphy school of journalism, you. 75 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 2: Have to get out of the bloody office, get out 76 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: of the bloody arfis. Young reporters in particular think that 77 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: you can do everything digitally, but actually you get a 78 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 2: lot more information of somebody face to face. You'll have 79 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: to win people's trust, and one way of doing that 80 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,679 Speaker 2: is have lunch with people. It's a great social setting 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,159 Speaker 2: to develop a relationship with somebody who you need them 82 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 2: to trust you. 83 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: I want to paint a bit of a picture for 84 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 1: you about Paul, because it pays in this story to 85 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: try and get the measure of people's character, or at 86 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: least to try and understan and the version of themselves 87 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: people present to the world, and why Although Paul spends 88 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: a lot of time at lunch, he's definitely not just 89 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: another city soak. Most people tend to miss the little 90 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: silver ring he's wearing a skull designed by his daughter. 91 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 1: People miss a lot about Paul, but that's part of 92 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 1: the trick. He's very good at being underestimated, and because 93 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: of that, he's also very good at getting people to 94 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: trust him, to talk to him, and to give him information. 95 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: To understand why I was drawn into this story, you 96 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: need to know a bit about the reporting that was 97 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: dominating Paul's life. Back in twenty eighteen, he and his 98 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: star reporter Dan McCrumb were neck deep investigating a German 99 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: company called Wirecard, a company that was run by the 100 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: man in the razor sharp blue suit, the man whom 101 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: Paul would eventually meet for lunch in Mayfair. Jan Marcelek 102 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: Wacard ran the financial plumbing behind billions of online transacts. 103 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: It was so successful at that point, it was even 104 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: secretly plotting a takeover of Germany's biggest bank. So to 105 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: the world, Warkard was a booming digital payments company. To 106 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: Paul and his reporter Dan, Warkard was a huge fraud, 107 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: and they were well on the way to proving it. 108 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: But it was no normal fraud because for months, Paul 109 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: and Dan they suspected they'd been under intense surveillance, all 110 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: directed by someone at Warkard from its base in southern Germany. 111 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like, almost sounds silly to 112 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: recount it, but you know, we were paranoid about being 113 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: followed around London. We would get on and off tube 114 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 2: trains quickly, just in case somebody was getting on the 115 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 2: same tube trainer as us. We would turn off our 116 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: phones so that a location couldn't be tracked. 117 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: Dan had already had his emails hacked and some of 118 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: them leaked online. It was an attempt to embarrass and 119 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: discredit him. There had been a mounting and seemingly coordinated 120 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,679 Speaker 1: attack on his reputation on social media. When Paul told 121 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: me all of this over a series of lunches at Sweetings, 122 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: I guess he was doing so because he wanted to 123 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: know if I had any contact in private intelligence or 124 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: even in the actual intelligence services, people who might be 125 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 1: able to help, because the subject I really write about, 126 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: the subject that has become my specialism at the FT 127 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: is spying. Paul was probably also telling me out of 128 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: frustration because back then he and Dan had hit a 129 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: bit of a wall in their reporting. They'd published all 130 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: they could about Warkad based on the evidence they had 131 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: gathered so far, but they still didn't have a smoking gun, 132 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: and Wakard's aggressive lawyer's shillings had meanwhile come down hard 133 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: on them. Dan had only just avoided a ruinous lawsuit. 134 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: It wasn't a great time. It was this sense that 135 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: what have we got ourselves into? That was like a 136 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: real low moment. Maybe I've got myself into a bit 137 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: too much hot water here. You do start to worry 138 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: what you've sort of brought down on your family. It 139 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: was quite oppressive. There was this turning point for Dan. 140 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: One of his sources rang him up to tell him 141 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: he'd been roughed up on the street by two thugs 142 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: right outside his children's school. They demanded to know if 143 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: this source had passed on confidential information about wirecard. Hearing 144 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: this sent Dan into a bit of a tailspin because 145 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: suddenly he was worrying about the safety of his own family. 146 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: My first thing was I sort of go home and 147 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 3: obsessively change every single one of my passwords, start checking 148 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 3: all the security on my house. I mean, the worst 149 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 3: moment is we had just moved into this rented house 150 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: and I suddenly realized I haven't checked the lock on 151 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 3: this patio door at the back of the house, which 152 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 3: we'd never used, and it just slides straight open like 153 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 3: our house had essentially been unlocked for the last couple 154 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 3: of months. And at that point I really did start 155 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: freaking out about security who might be after us, and 156 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,359 Speaker 3: I basically became really paranoid. 157 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: It was right at the peak of this paranoia that 158 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: something even stranger happened, something that led to that lunch 159 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: at forty five Park Lane, Paul was talking to one 160 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: of his oldest sources. 161 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 2: And we got onto the subject of wire Card, just 162 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 2: a completely, you know, innocent, relaxed conversation, and this guy 163 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 2: just suddenly said, you know that they'll pay you a 164 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 2: lot of money to stop writing about them, and I 165 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: kind of laughed, and he stopped me and said, no, 166 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 2: they will pay you ten million dollars to stop writing 167 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: about them. 168 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if you work in the kind of 169 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: job or live the kind of life where you've ever 170 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: been bribed, But even as a journalist for the ft, 171 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,479 Speaker 1: this doesn't really happen, let alone for such a ridiculous 172 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: sum of money, I mean, for ten million dollars, what 173 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: would you do? And as such, it takes Paul a 174 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: while to realize that this is a serious offer. How 175 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: do you know this? He asks? Through my son, His 176 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: source tells him He's got to know someone at Warkard 177 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,239 Speaker 1: pretty well. They've been out together a few times carousing. 178 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: He's called Jan Marcelek, and then Paul's Saurce. He says 179 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: something which makes Paul clock that this offer is real. 180 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Marceilek is paying this guy more than two hundred thousand 181 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 1: dollars just to convey the message. You should meet him 182 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: for lunch, he suggests. So what does Paul say, Tell 183 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: me when, and tell me where. Paul has no intention 184 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: of taking the bribe, but this back channel offer, it 185 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: seems to confirm everything they suspect about Wirecard. 186 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 2: Absolutely confirmed all our suspicions, such. 187 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: Were that the company is a criminal enterprise. 188 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 2: Absolutely this was kind of tangible evidence. 189 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: All they need now is for mass elect to offer 190 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 1: the bribe himself and to get that on tape. It's 191 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: time for the FT to mount its own surveillance operation. 192 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: So that day at forty five Park Lane, the formal 193 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: introduction's over, it's time to order stakes, the overpriced speciality 194 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: of this place around one hundred and seventy pounds for 195 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: a six ounce filet mignon. Right from the start, though, 196 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: Paul begins to feel that mars Leg isn't quite what 197 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: he was expecting. Paul is on edge, but he's not alone. 198 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: To his relief, it's not long before he spots his 199 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: undercover support team, three FT colleagues who pose as wealthy ladies, 200 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 1: catching up over lunch. They snagged a table just next 201 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: to him, and they look pretty convincing. One of the 202 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: reporters places her handbag on the back of a chair. 203 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Hidden inside, a camera films the lunch at an angle, 204 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: catching Yan Marceilek in profile. You can hear the tenor 205 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: of his voice, but the background noise means it's impossible 206 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: to make out his words to me. Watching this footage back, 207 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: it's striking how animated he is. He turns from side 208 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: to side, addressing everyone at the table. As he talks, 209 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: his face lights up. He's sort of holding court, emphasizing 210 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: his words with expansive hand gestures. He almost looks like 211 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: a politician. The longer the conversation goes on like this, 212 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 1: the more clear it becomes to Paul that Marcelek is 213 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: the one in control. This guy is expansive and engaging, charming, 214 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: but not at all defensive. There's no trace of anger 215 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: or guilt or care. He gently protests about the FT's 216 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 1: unfair coverage of Wakade, as if it's been an inconvenience, 217 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: but his whole toe seems to be saying, let's put 218 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: this behind us. As they settle into the meal, Paul 219 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: nudges the conversation into more dubious terrain. You get to 220 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: get something incriminating, even if it's just a hint of 221 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: something on tape and on camera. 222 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 2: I certainly talked about the kind of the aggression that 223 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: the business had shown us, and we also talked about 224 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: where the journalists were corrupt, and he absolutely assured me 225 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: that he knew that journalists could be bought. I remember saying, 226 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 2: we don't take bribes and remember him very specifically saying, 227 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: I know that, Paul, I know you don't have seen 228 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: evidence that you don't take bribes, And I thought, Hugh, 229 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: you've seen my bank account. I remember the kind of 230 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: jolting that he was kind of like stating this so openly. 231 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: But the conversation continues in this vein nothing concrete, the 232 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: killer offer of a bribe Paul had been hoping for. Well, 233 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: it's clear that Marceilek is far too savvy an operator 234 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,359 Speaker 1: to make it. Here and now at their first meeting. 235 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 2: Pretty quickly, you know, came to the conclusion that I 236 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: wasn't going to be offered a bribe in front of 237 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: these people. 238 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: A bit of a damp squip in a way, yes, 239 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: it was. 240 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 4: So. 241 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: Paul is now left wondering what does Marcelek want from him? 242 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: Why has this meeting happened if he's not actually going 243 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: to make him some kind of offer. The lunch lasted 244 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: about ninety minutes, and at the end Marcelek insisted on 245 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: paying and. 246 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 2: Pulled out a gold credit card, a novelty credit card 247 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: of solid gold. 248 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: Was he a bit of a show off? 249 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: Well, yes, you know, we're in one of the most 250 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: expensive restaurants in London, eating kind of two hundred quid steak, 251 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 2: and he was paying for the bill with a gold 252 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 2: credit card. So yeah. 253 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: As Paul leaves the restaurant, he almost laughs at himself 254 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: for having thought he'd be heading back with something explosive, 255 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: But he also realizes that this experience actually hasn't been 256 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: a busted flush. Far from it. Meeting Yan Marcelek has 257 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: only intrigued Paul Moore. It's put him into three D. 258 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: There's something about mars Lec he can't quite put his 259 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: finger on. 260 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: I felt I'd met somebody who was very controlled and confident, 261 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 2: who was almost certainly corrupt. I basically said, can we 262 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 2: do that again? And indeed Paul does meet with him again. 263 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: That's coming up after the break. When Paul first started 264 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: telling me about Wacard, I think I treated it all 265 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: as entertaining table talk. Paul is a great teller of story, 266 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: and I always enjoyed hearing the gossip about what his 267 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 2: investigations team was up to. After he told me about 268 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: meeting Marcelek, though, something began to needle at me, just 269 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: a feeling about what kind of person Marslek was. A 270 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: feeling I couldn't pin down until I heard about the 271 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: second lunch. One month after that lunch at Park Lane, 272 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: Paul met Marcelek again, this time without undercover colleagues or 273 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: secret cameras. It was just the two of them. They 274 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: met at the Lanesborough, another high end hotel in London. 275 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 2: We talked about geopolitics, We talked about technology, we talked 276 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: about finance, you know, we talked about the state of 277 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: the world. He had interesting opinions and information on all 278 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: these things. If I'm honest, at this stage, I I'd 279 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 2: become fascinated by this character because he seemed to know 280 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 2: so many people, and I kind of I was thinking, 281 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 2: will you know, he's probably not going to offer me 282 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 2: a bribe. We're not going to just catch him. He's 283 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 2: not that stupid. This guy is smart and he knows 284 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: people and he has information. 285 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: At this point, did it occur to you that he'd 286 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: charmed you in any way? 287 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: Yes, it did, but he was a charming man. 288 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: Did you like him? 289 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I liked him. 290 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: If wire Card, if you hadn't have known it to 291 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: be a fraud, do you think you would have sought 292 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: to stay in touch with him? 293 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: I absolutely, absolutely. I mean in actual fact, you know 294 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: my thinking after that second lunch I did. I actually thought, 295 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to you know, develop this guy as a source. 296 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: What did you think he was hoping to get out 297 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: of a relationship with you? 298 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: Actually, it was very clear we posed an existential risk 299 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: to wire Card. He knew that by you know, building 300 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: a relationship directly with me, that he could potentially stop 301 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 2: as writing about them, or at least he'd get the 302 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 2: kind of intel in advance about what we were thinking. 303 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: So, as Paul tells me about all of this, the 304 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,880 Speaker 1: feeling I get most is that a game is afoot, 305 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: and both Paul and Marcelek are enjoying playing it. They've 306 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: both established rapport, they're both working to build trust, but 307 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,360 Speaker 1: they also test each other, push, try to implicate each 308 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: other in this polite conversation. And all of this grips 309 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: me because in it I see so much of the 310 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: kind of psychology that I've spotted glimpses of covering intelligence 311 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: and espionage. I recognize the shape of this kind of interaction, 312 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: a certain amused, matter of fact detachment from things. Despite 313 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: the stakes about it, Marcelek is launching happily with a 314 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: man who is trying to destroy the company he works 315 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: for and put him in jail. And Paul well, in 316 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: a funny way, Paul is being encouraged into a minor transgression, 317 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: something that almost felt to me like a textbook trick 318 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: from an intelligence recruitment manual, an indiscretion that might later 319 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: make you vulnerable. Because Paul does all of this works 320 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: Marcilek behind the back of the lead reporter on the 321 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: Wirecard Project, Dan McCrum. Why were you dealing with Marcelec 322 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: and not Dan. 323 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: Dan and I are different characters. Dan is a guy. 324 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: You know, he's tall, and he has all his features 325 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: in the right place. And if your daughter brought him 326 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: home as a boyfriend, you'd be really happy. You know, 327 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 2: he's a good guy. He's intelligence, he's articulate, he's well educated. 328 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: But actually, actually, but actually Dan is lethal. Dan's like 329 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 2: kind of smiling axe man. He's dangerous, he's friends. Yes, 330 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 2: he's absolute forensic and he won't let it lie. And 331 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: you know I have a different style, all right. I'm 332 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 2: much softer and you know, chat people up, and you 333 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 2: know I present myself as being very kind of clubbable. 334 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,360 Speaker 2: Do you know all journalists have different styles. 335 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're probably more comfortable playing a 336 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 1: role as well. 337 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: No, possibly yes. 338 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: Reading between the lines, I think probably A doubting part 339 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: of him was also wondering whether the Warquard investigation was 340 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: at a dead end. The threat of a lawsuit from 341 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: Shillings meant their reporting had stalled, and if that was 342 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: the case, it might be worth Paul pursuing Marcelek as 343 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: a source of his own, someone who could help him 344 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: with other stories. Then, around six months after that second meeting, 345 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: Paul gets a call from an intermediary. Marcelect conveys that 346 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: he has something very interesting to offer documents. He hints 347 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: at what they're about, and it sounds outlandish, but it's 348 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: enough of a hint that Paul agrees to marcele X's 349 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: suggestion that he fly out to Munich, where Marcelek lives, 350 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: in order to get them. 351 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 2: I kept it completely private. Only just a managing editor 352 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: at that dft knew what I was doing. 353 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: They meet at the Kiefer Schenka. It's a Munich institution, 354 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: patrician reassuringly expensive, white tablecloths paneled rooms, but warm and 355 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: efficient service, and it's practically Marcelec's house restaurant yand. 356 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: Was waiting for me outside. We went in. We had 357 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: a little private room. I remember having salmon with Caviat. 358 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: And as they talked, Marcelec pushed a brown folder full 359 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: of papers across the table towards Paul. 360 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: Because it's in a restaurants, I couldn't pull them out 361 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: and start reading through them. I just had to kind 362 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: of politely say, thank you very much, I'll have a 363 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: read of those. And then we just had a kind 364 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 2: of stilted, awkward lunch conversation. We talked about his bad back. 365 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: If I'm I'm honest, I was trying to get out 366 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 2: of the lunch as quickly as possible because I wanted 367 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 2: to see what was in the folder. 368 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: They finished lunch, Marcelex said he had to go back 369 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: to the office. 370 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 2: The restaurant has lots of kind of separate bars and rooms, 371 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: and so I literally went down some stairs and found 372 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: myself a little corner and sat down and opened the folder. 373 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 1: These documents they related to something that happened in the 374 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: UK that spring, something awful which had shocked the whole country. 375 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 3: Yesterday afternoon, passers by noticed two people apparently unconscious on 376 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: a bench in Salisbury, the area of the Salisbury poisonings. 377 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 3: As a police presence remains here in the city whilst 378 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 3: they investigate. Residents and visitors to the city have been 379 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 3: reacting to the news. 380 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, just completely surprised and shocked that something can happen 381 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 5: like this in Salisbury. 382 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: An assassination attempt against a former spy using one of 383 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: the deadliest nerve agents ever created a chemical that only 384 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: a handful of government specialists knew about, Novichok two thirty four. 385 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: The spy was found half dead alongside his unconscious daughter, 386 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: but thanks to some remarkable medical work, they both survived. 387 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: Another local resident, a mother of three, did not. She 388 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: died after coming into contact with the novichok. It had 389 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: been hidden by the assassins in a perfume bottle. The 390 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: intended target was soon identified as a Russian intelligence officer 391 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: who had fled to Britain. In twenty ten, Prime Minister 392 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: Theresa May announced to a shocked parliament that Moscow was 393 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: to blame. 394 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,959 Speaker 5: The government has concluded that the two individuals named by 395 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 5: the police and CPS are officers from the Russian Military 396 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 5: Intelligence Service, also known as the GRU. 397 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: The GRU the main directorate Russia's fearsome military Intelligence Agency, 398 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: an organization with goals that should have consigned it to 399 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:17,640 Speaker 1: Cold War history. Misinformation, civil disorder, violence, assassinations. Under Vladimir 400 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: Putin's long watch, the gru has quietly grown in power 401 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: and influence. In the weeks that followed the poisoning, Russia 402 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: aggressively denied its involvement. The Organization for the Prohibition of 403 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: Chemical Weapons meanwhile launched its own investigation, sending its experts 404 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: to Salisbury to pour over the evidence. They produced a 405 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: highly classified dossier based on shared intelligence and chemical analysis 406 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: from the site. The dossier also included Russia's own version 407 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 1: of events. These were the documents Paul now had in 408 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: his hands. 409 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: It was fascinating to read all this kind of close detail, 410 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: you know, the the Russian version of the story. And 411 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 2: then the other very interesting part of the documents was 412 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 2: the actual formula for Novi. 413 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 1: Chok, the chemical diagram for the poison, a technical outline 414 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,399 Speaker 1: for something that had been kept hidden from the world 415 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: for decades, a weapon of mass destruction. So what we 416 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 1: got far one, two through for five sort of staple 417 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: chiefs of paper. Those documents that Marcelett handed over that 418 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: day at the Kiefashenka Paul showed them to me, and well, 419 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: they're internal documents from the Organization for the Prohibition of 420 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: Chemical Weapons and these have been sort of illegally photocopied, 421 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: right also, I think their photocopies anyway. 422 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 2: Yea of photocopies, except that one is a PowerPoint presentation. 423 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: They've all got barcodes on them and. 424 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: This sort of big stamped watermark which says. 425 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 2: This print out may contain OPCW confidential information warning. Yeah, 426 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 2: they're all different copy numbers though as well, aren't they. 427 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 2: That's one of Sirius Deine. This one's twenty one. 428 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: The Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons is an 429 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: international body based in the Hague. Almost all of the 430 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: world's big military powers are signatories. Its job is to 431 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 1: police and monitor weapons like Novi chok, to ensure they 432 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: are never ever used. What was going through your head 433 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: when you kind of first pulled this out of the 434 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: manila envelope that they were all. 435 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: In, Well, I was looking for a story. The Salisbury 436 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 2: poisoning had been headline news for weeks on end. Suddenly 437 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 2: I had, you know, what clearly were kind of classified 438 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 2: documentsing specifically to that event. There had to be a 439 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: story in it. You know, That's what I was after, 440 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 2: and I was struck at how detailed and careful and 441 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 2: yet completely fanciful. The Russian version of events was. 442 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: In the documents. The Russians made the case that the 443 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: British had manufactured novichok because Solibury is just down the 444 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 1: road from Port and down a highly secure military research base, 445 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: and the Russians they argued that the British government had 446 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: somehow leaked the novichoc from its own chemical research lab. 447 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 2: You know, I asked him, you know, point blank, where 448 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 2: did he get this information? 449 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: What did he say? 450 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: He said he got it from a friend. And he 451 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: did actually say that, you know, if I wanted further information, 452 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 2: I should try him in future, that I'd be quite 453 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: surprised at the sort of information he could access. 454 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: So this was sort of like a little bit of 455 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: an opening, kind of showing his wares, you know that 456 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: if you wanted to keep him on side, and he 457 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: could push other material your way. 458 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely that he was basically saying, look, I have 459 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: friends in interesting places. I can help you in the future. 460 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 2: We were building a relationship on both sides. 461 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: While all of this unfolded. Dan McCrumb, the lead reporter 462 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: on the Warcard investigation, hadn't been sitting still. In fact, 463 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: he'd just found his very own treasure trove of documents, 464 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: and these documents they would change everything because they finally 465 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: gave Dan the ammunition he needed to prove that Wirecard 466 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: was a fraud and that marce Lek was at the 467 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: center of it. So when Paul got back to London 468 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: and Dan told him all of this, Paul knew it 469 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: was time to go back on the offensive against Warkard directly, 470 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: and also therefore that it was time to fess up 471 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: to Dan and to tell him he'd been secretly lunching 472 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: with Marsilek over the past few months. Paul, you know, 473 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: he'd gone to meet marcelect for lunch and he was 474 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: kind of cultivating this parallel kind of you know, relationship 475 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: with Marcelec. When did you find out about that and 476 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: what was your first thought? 477 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:26,239 Speaker 3: Oh, man, there are moments in life when you were 478 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: taken by surprise. I basically think he hadn't wanted to 479 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 3: like blow my mind whilst I was focused on getting 480 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 3: the story, because the important thing was to get the 481 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 3: story out. But it had reached the point where it 482 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 3: was sort of becoming embarrassing that he hadn't mentioned that 483 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: he had quietly been dining with Yan Marslek. I'm like, sorry, what, 484 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: But then he goes he's been flashing around top secret 485 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 3: documents with a recipe for Navichok on them. I think 486 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: my reaction was if he had just tried to tell 487 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 3: me that Marcelek had faked the moon landings. It was 488 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 3: so completely out of left field that you're like, sorry, 489 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 3: what did you just say? 490 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: To be clear, we had no evidence that Marcelect actually 491 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: had anything to do with carrying out the poisonings, but 492 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: the fact that he even had these documents was a bombshell, 493 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: not only because the documents made it clear that Marcelek 494 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: was entangled with something besides just a huge corporate fraud, 495 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: but also because Marcelect had effectively chosen to disclose this. 496 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: Marcelek pulled the spotlight onto himself, and it made us 497 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: realize how little we knew about him at all. 498 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: At that point, we just kind of had this sense 499 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 2: that Marcello it was this kind of man of action 500 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: and was mixed up somehow. 501 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: In Viennese politics, Wakaard's aggressive surveillance of Paul and Dan intensified, 502 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: and they managed to trace it back to a private 503 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: security company in Vienna, the capital of Austria, and marce 504 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,240 Speaker 1: Lex home city. Paul and Dan were now going to 505 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: spend the next few months battling to prove the fraud 506 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: with the new documents Dan had received. For me, I 507 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,520 Speaker 1: was about to start a foreign posting in Switzerland and 508 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: in Austria. If I was going to be on the ground, 509 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: Paul thought, then I could surely make some inquiries. 510 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: We already knew that there was a big Vienna angle 511 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: to all this. We just didn't know what the angle was. 512 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 2: We just didn't know which doors you had to not 513 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 2: com We didn't know who you needed to get to. 514 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it worked. I remember thinking you were mad. 515 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 1: I just thought, okay, all right, I'm just going to 516 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: go to Austria and start talking to people about But 517 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: you know, you were right. Sometimes it's the smallest, most 518 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 1: unpromising or unexpected, little thread that you pull on that 519 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: suddenly unravels something. Sometimes that thread is just an intuition, 520 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: a feeling about someone, a sense that there's definitely something 521 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: more here I don't know about, but that I recognized 522 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: the shadow of As it turned out, this particular trace, well, 523 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: it would slowly unravel into a story that wasn't just 524 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: the sordid tale of one well connected fraudster, but instead 525 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: the tale of one of the biggest spice scandals to 526 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: have hit Europe since the Cold War. 527 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: To this day, I remember that first note coming back 528 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 2: from you, just saying that you needed a secure channel 529 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: to communicate. The detail you put in that first note 530 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 2: was just mind boggling, absolutely shocking. It was like a 531 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: whole world just opened up. You know, this was no 532 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: longer just about some weird German corporate There is this 533 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: kind of huge, geopolitical kind of side to the story 534 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: that was only just coming into view. 535 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: Maybe you've felt in recent years that the world is 536 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: a less certain place, that from the background there are 537 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: threats or worries you'd never had to think about before 538 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: that are suddenly present, wars that look like they might 539 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: tip out of control, radical politicians tearing at the threads 540 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: of civil society, Lies turned into truth by money. Well, 541 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: this story is, in some senses an accounting of that, 542 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: a story that can sometimes make you realize how tissue 543 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: thin the idea of a stable, law abiding society can 544 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: be one that's governed by economic, political, and moral rules 545 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: we've all agreed on. It's a story about what kind 546 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 1: of people get drawn into the world on the other 547 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: side of that, and what kind of world that is 548 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: a space carved out by crime and corruption, where money 549 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:02,640 Speaker 1: and power are unchecked by laws or borders or markets. 550 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: That kind of world might sound terrifying, but to some 551 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: people it's irresistible. To some people. It's not an alternative 552 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: world at all. It's the real world. Coming up this 553 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: season on Hot Money. 554 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 4: I know politics is corrupt, I know everything and all 555 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 4: that and all that I believe to know that, but 556 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 4: this is too much. I thought. I hope that he 557 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 4: will talk to you and you will be able to 558 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 4: investigate on it, and perhaps misdeeds and misbehavior stopped very fast. 559 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: Actually started then talking about his experience in Syria. 560 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 3: He definitely has a view that he's operating with complete 561 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 3: freedom to do whatever he likes. 562 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 4: I don't know if they followed me to my home. 563 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 4: The decision was very simple. 564 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 5: It was a choice between being killed or in prison, 565 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 5: and the other option was just to try to get 566 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 5: real freedom. 567 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 6: How much of it was an act? 568 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 4: How much was genius? 569 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: How much was learned, how much was instinctive? 570 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 6: I often asked myself, now did I know the true 571 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 6: jan at all? 572 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: Hot Money is a production of The Financial Times and 573 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported by me Sam Jones. 574 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: The senior producer and co writer is Peggy Sutton. Our 575 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: producer is Izzy Carter. Our researcher is Marine Saint. Our 576 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,320 Speaker 1: show is edited by Karen Shakergi, fact checking by Kira Levigne. 577 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de Olivia, 578 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: with additional sound design by Izzy Carter. Original music from 579 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: Matthias Bossi and John Evans of Stellwagen Symphonet. Our show 580 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: art is by Sean Carney. Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumle, 581 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: Amy Gains McQuaid and Matthew Garahan. Additional editing by Paul Murphy. 582 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Ruler Klaff, Dan McCrumb, Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, 583 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: Manuela Saragosa, Nigel Hanson, Vicki Merrick, Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, 584 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: Jake Flanagan, Jacob Goldstein, Sarah Nix and Greta Cohne. I'm 585 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: Sam Jones. Subscribe to Pushkin Plus. To listen to Hot Money, 586 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,839 Speaker 1: Agent of Chaos ad free. As a Pushkin Plus subscriber. 587 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: You'll also get bonus episodes, full audiobooks, and binges from 588 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: your favorite Pushkin hosts and authors. Find Pushkin Plus on 589 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: the Hot Money Show page on Apple Podcasts, or at 590 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: pushkin dot fm, slash plus