WEBVTT - How a Sardine Gets From the Ocean to a Can 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:13.960 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.760 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.920 I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisenthal. Joe, as you know, 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:27.120 although you sometimes forget. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:31.680 You love fish. If there's one thing I know about you, Tracy, 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.599 you love fish. You love seafood. Right, right, that's where 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:36.240 you were going. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.720 Right, That's exactly it, all right. Famously, some people, some 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.640 long term Odd Lots listeners, will have heard this story before. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.879 But the first time Joe ever invited me over to 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.080 his house, he asked if I had any dietary restrictions, 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.040 and I said something like, you know, like I eat everything, 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.640 but I'm not a big fish person. And then I 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.840 went over to his house and was promptly served pok bowls. Yeah, 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.000 that all right, They're actually really good. And I do 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.039 eat fish on occasion. I'm just not that big into it. 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.480 Like I eat crabcakes oysters. I just have to be 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:09.080 in the right mood for I guess I get it. 0:01:09.319 --> 0:01:12.600 One thing I have never eaten, though, is sardines. 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.480 Oh yeah, I've had sardines. I like them. Yeah, I 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:18.679 don't know if I have like a strike. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:20.560 Do you just like take them out of the can 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.160 and just stick them in your mouth, Like. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:23.679 Yeah, I think I have her, Like I'll put them 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:25.200 in like a salad or something like that. 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.040 Yeah, okay, yeah, salad sardines. 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.399 But I've definitely taken sardines and just like taking one 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:32.839 out of a canon eating it for sure. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.680 Okay, Well, I personally don't eat fish, don't eat a 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.520 lot of fish because of the taste. But it turns 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.120 out it's becoming a pretty convenient distaste to have because 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:46.400 we are now facing a sardine shortage. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.840 When we talk about tinned fish, it intersects with a 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:52.400 bunch of interesting things that we talk about all the 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.960 time or that come up. So it's like global supply 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.240 chains generally. I think, you know, I've said this a 0:01:59.280 --> 0:02:03.320 couple of times on the podcast, but one factoid that 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.000 I very remember from our trip to Alaska is how 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.000 much fish is caught off the shores of Alaska. It's 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.240 sold in the United States, but first it takes a 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:13.560 detour to China for us. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.160 That's right, So even if you buy us caught Alaskan salmon, 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:19.920 the chances are it's probably been processed through China. 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:20.320 Yeah. 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:24.080 I find that to be really interesting. I find the 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.000 sort of marketing of fish and the sort of branding, 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.720 because one thing that we know about tinfish, especially over 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.160 the last five years, is there's a whole like new 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:37.240 demographic that doesn't just associate it with like the cheap 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.760 sun kissed or star kissed tuna or whatever that brand was. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.960 Either the sort of low end tuna that's sort of emerged, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.800 this like high end premium version of cantuna, which I 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:50.440 really like cantuna that's emerged. So there are all these 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:52.760 sort of like different market things not to and then 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.680 you mentioned climate and some of the questions about you know, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.480 supply and fish stocks, et cetera. There are many different 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.520 intersecting stories of the canned fish story. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.920 Yeah, And the big news right now is the Morocco, 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.800 which apparently exports something like fifty percent of the world's 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:13.560 sardines supply, has imposed a ban on sardine exports because 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:19.079 of again sighting reports overfishing. Apparently there's not enough plankton 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.080 either to feed the little sardines, which is sad because 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:26.880 it means that penguins also don't Penguins not in Morocco, yeah, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.839 but penguins elsewhere in the world also don't have enough 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:31.400 to eat. So we're going to talk about all these things. 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:33.880 We're going to talk about what's actually going on with 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:37.240 the world sardine supply, where sardines come from, where fish 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.200 in general comes from, how it gets processed, what makes 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:44.400 a good tinned fish versus a bad tin fish. And 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:46.880 I'm happy to say we do, in fact have the 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.480 perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Becca Milstein. 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.480 She is the founder and CEO of fish Wife, which 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:57.520 of course specializes in exactly that tinfish. And Becca, thank 0:03:57.560 --> 0:03:59.480 you so much for coming on oud. Lots I have 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.880 to say, when I finally eat my first sardine, I 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.520 think it will be a Fishwife sardine. 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.280 You can't wait for that day. Tracy, I truly can't 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:08.320 thank you so much for. 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.880 Having packaging has got me. The packaging got me. 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.880 It's very good grating. It was definitely a big focus 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.240 when I started working on the brand. You got to 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:19.680 kind of do a bait and switch. There are a 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.040 lot of people out there. 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.760 Like, are there going to be a fish punch in 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:24.480 this conversation? 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.480 As money as you'll allow, but yeah, we had to 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:35.159 really counter position from what Americans associated with canfish, which, 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.719 as you probably know, was you know, white and blue 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:44.679 super commodity, non branded canfish. So obviously what the hard 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:50.400 left all hand illustrated, super beautiful branding. And we still 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.560 have our illustrator, you know, all on staff creating you 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.680 illustrations for us every single day. 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.080 So tell us about the origins of Fishwife. Then you 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.560 just touched on it there. But the I was to 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:03.719 kind of make a premium tin fish product that would 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.320 maybe make Americans think a little bit more like in Europe, right, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:10.840 and tin sardines are like a nice thing to have. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.360 I remember my mom getting very excited on your present. 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.040 Yeah. So I'm from New Amshure. Originally I studied abroad 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:20.640 in southern Spain and college in a city called Granada. 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.839 And Granada is a very interesting city. Beautiful. Have you 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:24.320 been there? 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:27.719 I have. Yeah, I've had some of the best timona 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.440 of my life in Granada and cheese. 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:31.960 They really know how to do it. The interesting thing 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.680 about Granada is that, to my knowledge, it is still 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.160 the only city in Spain that serves free top us 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.280 with every drink. So if you get like a little 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.039 glass of beer, a little glass of wine, they will 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:44.880 bring you out, whether it's you know, on the very 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.080 low end, potato trips, on the very high end like 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:53.000 sardines all heimone, You're just always being fed beautiful little bites. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.200 And I was super inspired experiencing that and just seeing 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:02.240 how delicious these little snacks were. You know, they're super simple, 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.080 no cooking involved, but the ingredients were of such a 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:08.680 high quality that it just tasted so so get no 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.240 matter really what little bar I was at. So between 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:15.280 that and seeing the way that Spaniards eat and you know, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.039 really just treasure the high quality of their food products, 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.279 and then traveling to Portugal, which is like where everyone 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:25.560 has their conservative experience, and it's certainly where I had 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.680 mine in Lisbon, you know, seeing these beautiful shops with 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:33.000 rows and rows of gorgeous tinfish, like it could not 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.320 have been more different than my market basket in southern 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.960 New Hampshire. And I at the time, certainly, you know, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.960 at age twenty, wasn't like I'm going to do this 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.160 for the rest of my life. But during the COVID 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.080 nineteen pandemic, I started getting more candy fish. It's really 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.800 really good for you. It's ready to eat straight out 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.400 at the tin it's still stable, you know, when we 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.520 were all trying to not go to the grocery store 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.440 as much as possible, and there was sort of a 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.240 light bulb moment, you know, seeing I know you had 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:07.880 an Alson Roman on this podcast, seeing folks like Alson Roman, 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.080 Anthony Boor Dane and David Chang, like they had all 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.800 been espousing how incredible, especially you know, really high quality entry. 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:18.520 It was overally high quality Cantuna. It was definitely in 0:07:18.560 --> 0:07:20.960 the ether, and I was starting to see in my 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.600 own pure group, you know, people posting pictures of like 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.440 little meals they were creating at home with tinfish, which 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.320 is fascinating because I really feel like before COVID that 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.680 was not an habitual thing for people to do, like 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.320 make a beautiful lunch and post about it on Instagram. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:41.280 So weird. And obviously now it's completely eb equitiz So 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.680 all of those factors combined added with the bump. I 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.040 think the canfish category saw like a ten percent year 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.280 ear increase during the COVID nineteen pandemic, which is crazy. 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:55.080 It has not been like that since broadly, and I 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:56.880 was like America to deserve a better product than I 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.400 think they'll be willing to pay for it. So that 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:01.920 was that was really the origin of the company. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.120 So there's sort of like two different strains that I'm 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.200 interested in this conversation. I want to make sure you 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.520 touch on both. So that's sort of the brand origin. 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.440 We'll talk more about brand and marketing now. Tell us 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.960 like and we'll get into more, but give us the 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:21.960 basic supply chain that you have right now of you know, 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.400 the short version of like where a fish is caught 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.680 and the steps it takes until I get it in 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:28.600 my kitchen like that, give us like the bait the 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:29.400 overall statement. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:34.160 I'll give you the most simple, straightforward version first, which 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:36.840 is because the thing that you'll learn throughout this conversation 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.880 is that every seafood supply chain and can seafood supply 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:44.000 chain is completely different and very strange. So the first 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:48.680 I'll give an example of is our cantabrin antrobies. So 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.200 we source our anthrothies from a tiny town in northern 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720 Spain called Santonia. And if you go to this town, Santonia, 0:08:55.760 --> 0:08:59.880 you will be blown away because it is completely occupied 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.880 by anchoby canneries. Like that is the town. You walk 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.120 through this tiny city and it's like every anchoke, candy, 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:11.200 anchoby brand you've ever heard of, their logo like plastered 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:15.720 on a big warehouse. So in that case, the fishermen 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.400 are going out like six miles from shore. They're using 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.079 the persine method of fishing, which is it basically is 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.520 like a big bag wide net that's cast out into 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.480 the top sort of the top of the ocean. It 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.640 encircles the school of fish, and then the net is 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.080 sort of pulled together and the fish are brought out 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.760 of the water and then immediately put on ice, and 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.720 then they're brought, you know, six miles into shore, and 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:46.520 they're taken to the anchovy auction and they are marked 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.080 with a number that indicates the quality of the anchovy. 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.400 So that's like the size of the anchovy, has it 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.120 been damaged, the fattiness of the anchovy. It's marked with 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:01.080 that quality signifier, and then the bids begin. In this case, 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.320 the there's usually one or two folks from each canary. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.720 And keep in mind these canaries are by and large, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.800 maybe all multi generational, family owned. So the canary that 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:17.520 we work with was started in the nineteen forties by 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.760 a man who now has had three generation of offspring 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.160 that have taken over his business and you know, have 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.040 grown and expanded his business. So anyway, today the grandson 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.560 of this man goes to the anchoby auction and you will, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:34.720 you know, have a price in mind to bid on 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.440 these anchobies, and he'll go by a bunch of anchoviies 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:44.960 and those anthobies will be taken mirror three blocks away 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:50.640 from where that auction is happening, and they'll be immediately processed, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.000 which in this case means, I mean I'm going deep 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:54.800 in the processing. 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:56.079 That's great, that's great. 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.960 So that means that the anchobies will be basically headed 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.880 and tailed, So their heads will be clipped, their tails 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.960 will be clipped, and then they will be put into 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:11.080 a barrel of rock salt in layers and they'll be 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.920 left there for anywhere between twelve to thirty six months. 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.840 And actually the longer they're in there, the higher quality 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:21.040 they are. That being said, three years is a very 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.840 very very long time. So it's a really really expensive 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:29.000 product and a pretty limited market. Our anchovies are on 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.720 average held in there from twelve to eighteen months, and 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.680 during that time, you know, they they're cured and they 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.719 develop all that beautiful flavor that we associate with anchovies, 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.920 and then I'm going to keep going. At the end 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.120 of that twelve to eighteen month period, they're removed from 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.640 that bucket of rock salt and they are their skin 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:54.000 is removed and basically, like the beautiful little pink anchovy 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.199 that we all know and love emerges from what other 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.920 miise looks like a pretty normal little silver fish. Like honestly, 0:12:00.960 --> 0:12:04.360 when you see an anchovy for the first time, like 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:06.920 a lot of people think they're sardines because they are 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:12.439 these like substantial long silver fish. They are cleaned. That 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:17.439 lovely little pink anchovy is removed and then laid one 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.600 at a time in the tin that you you know 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.280 you see when you buy a fish anchovy product. They're 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:29.280 cleaned extensively, They're rinsed and washed, and then they are 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.440 those cancer are filled with extra original olive oil in 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.560 our case, and they're seamed, and then anchovies are very 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:41.079 unique because, unlike the rest of our tinfish products, they 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.720 are cured through that salt curing method, so they're not 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:48.480 actually heat treated, which makes them a dramatically more sensitive 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.960 product and a much shorter shelf life product than the 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.240 rest of our tin. So the rest of our tins 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.679 have an average OA between a five to seven year 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:59.360 shelf life, which I think you can imagine is like 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:03.120 truly incredible to have as a food business owner. Like, 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.360 they're very very few products with that sholve life. Anchobies 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.680 only have about a year long self life because that's 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.240 all care and method and they can't be exposed to 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:17.439 keep because they'll disintegrate. So that's like the simplest supply chain. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:21.440 And how concentrated is that being said? Anchobies as an 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.360 actual product or by far far and aware, our most 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:27.439 complex to store and manage and ship. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:32.240 So you didn't have any prior fish experience before you 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:33.840 started this company, right, I. 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.800 Did not know. I had been in the working world 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.400 for about four years in the entertainment industry before starting 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:39.880 the business. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.600 So listening to describe the fish supply chain in a 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:48.199 place like Spain, it sounds very familial and sort of 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.600 close knit and probably hard to break into. Like I 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.400 imagine you can't just go and find a fisherman and 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:56.600 be like, hey, you want to be our supplier. How 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.360 did you actually manage to source these particular people and 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.240 start building up those relationships? 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.760 That's sort of the interesting crux of this story is 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.280 in CpG, and you know, in emerging brands CpG, it's 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:14.560 very well known that quote unquote getting line time or 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.360 getting a coman co manufacturer to work with you is 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:20.600 very challenging because you know, who knows if you're going 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.040 to be around in a couple of years. Your product 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.040 probably has a bunch of weird like better for you 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.080 ingredients that the commands don't want to deal with. They 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.880 would much rather work with much much bigger companies that 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.680 they can rely on to produce massive batchels or whatever 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:37.920 product you're working on. This case is a bit interesting 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.800 because when I started the business, I was reaching out 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:46.360 to you know, mostly co manufacturer suppliers, et cetera in America, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.440 and first and foremost everyone was like, why are you 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.840 trying to start a canned fish business? Like the canned 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.960 fish industry is declining, Why don't you do pouches? The 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.600 pouch industry is booming? And I was like, that's really 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.920 not the vibe I'm going for, Gus. Honestly, it doesn't 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:05.840 capture the European romantic esthetic. So that was definitely at play. 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.560 It wasn't like trying to think of another industry. I 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.240 don't know, beverage. Beverage is always you know, kind of 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.560 going up into the right. It wasn't like I had 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:19.119 a bunch of other young entrepreneurs that I was competing 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.360 with for this line time, and it wasn't like the 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.120 category was off like a shot. It was it was 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.160 flat or in decline. So I think when we reached 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.920 out to these European canneries, which I started doing, you know, 0:15:31.960 --> 0:15:34.800 started with the American manufacturers I coul get in touch with, 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.760 and then very quickly start reaching out to manufacturers in 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:43.360 Spain Portual. There is this you know, America, it's the 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.720 biggest market in the world. Establishing a market in a 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:52.320 foreign country is you know, near to impossible because of 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:54.240 all of the marketing and brand building work you have 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.120 to do. That being said, it's this incredibly attractive market. 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:02.040 There's you know, very very affluent, really high paying customers. 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.960 So I think when we reached out to these canaries, 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.320 they must have seen that, they must have seen, Okay, 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.840 here is you know, someone who's going to work really 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.800 hard to try to build a market for this really 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.840 premium product in America, and we don't then have to 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:22.800 go do that work because again nearly impossible to accomplish, 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.200 and we have a capacity like these these canories that 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.360 they are mostly not operating at you know, three shifts 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:33.200 a day, seven days a week. Maybe they're operating at 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.160 you know, one or two shifts a day for five 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:40.000 days a week. So there was some capacity at all 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.560 of these canaries that we reached out to. I think 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:46.840 the crazy part for them is seeing how quickly an 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:51.120 American business can grow because you know, as mentioned, these 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.880 businesses have been around for generations. They're family owned, they're 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.560 not venture backed, they're not looking to you know, scale 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:00.360 in a few years and exit like a that we 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.760 think about business in the US is just so different 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.080 from how these businesses are are you know, conceiving of 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.600 their own Like if they have five percent year over 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:14.119 year growth, it's amazing flat, it's fine in some cases. 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.560 I don't want to generalize, but like they're certainly not 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:18.600 trying to grow too much or fifty percent yearly year. 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.320 So I think, you know, Fishwife has been around for 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:26.320 five and a half years now. The demand has been 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.800 revealed for these products, and I think watching these partners, 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:34.199 they maybe have been fine with five percent year over 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:39.960 year growth and seeing Fishwife's you know, volume requests triple, 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:44.600 quadruple year over year, it's like hard for them to 0:17:44.640 --> 0:18:00.639 wrap their heads around. 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.520 So I take it you had a few different structural 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:08.760 opportunities because Okay, at that point, the sort of like 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:13.320 premium cans were not really a category yet. The existing 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.960 canneries actually did have some slack, so there wasn't an 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.800 intense competition to get in there, but just sort of 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.320 like basically, how did you, for just from a business 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.359 wise perspective, solved that. It's still have a cold start problem. 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.720 You have like no customers on day one, et cetera. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.800 You have to like get some capacity. You don't really 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.760 know what en demand is going to look like. I 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:39.840 guess you, as they say in the startup world, like 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:41.879 the zero to one question, even if it was a 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.919 little easier than maybe other DTC categories, what was the 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.560 actual process of going to like I've got to place 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.800 an order and sell it and like the commitments that 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.840 you had to make to place that order. 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.080 Yeah, it's a great question. So our zero to one 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:59.320 year was twenty twenty one, and it had a distinct 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:01.560 supply chain from the one that we have today. For 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.159 the most part. So, as I mentioned, when I started 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:06.720 working on the business, I was looking and open to 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:09.760 build a supply chain both in North America and in Europe. 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.600 So in the first year of the business, I started 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:14.800 working with. The first canary we ever worked with was 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.960 a tiny micro cannery in Oregon, on the coast of Oregon. 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.480 This is mostly servicing sports fishermen from you know, the 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.719 West coast, whether in California up to Washington. So like, 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.320 we're not talking mqu's here. This is people coming in 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.560 bringing their catch and saying, hey, make me you know, 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:36.919 five hundred cans of tuna. So that was the first canary. 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.520 Then we started working with one in Washington State which 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:43.800 was very similar profile micro cannery superhands on, no MQ 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.600 and to be honest, stand for minimum order quantity. 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.440 Oh great, thank you. 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.120 So so yeah, speaking to the issues I mentioned earlier, 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.359 a huge issue that startups face is, you know, I 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.600 want to start a beverage company, you need to make 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.040 fifty thousand units of your sparkling water grand you know, 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:04.000 on your first round before you have any demand, before 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.640 anyone knows who the heck you are. So all in all, 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.080 we didn't have an MQ issue. We certainly didn't have 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.000 it in the domestic canaries because they are so so small. 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.919 And then when we started working with our first canary 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.280 in Spain, which we still work with today. We still 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.199 work with the cannery in Washington State that MQ is 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.600 still on this smaller side. I think it was maybe 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:29.920 twenty thousand units, I think so. I think I ordered 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.240 twenty thousand units of our startings with Preserve Love and 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:36.359 it lasted us maybe the entire year. But it was 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:38.680 super messy, like I had no idea what I was doing, 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.800 I mean, demand planning. It was probably the worst thing 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:46.720 I am at in the entire company. So we, like 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:51.160 in the Oregon Cannery, we went out of stock unexpectedly. 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.040 We were out of stock of two products for three months. 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.439 Like that is what the zero to one year looked like. 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:01.480 It stop starts, et cetera. But all the while, even 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.640 with those stops and starts, and even with that very 0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:06.960 small amount of inventory, I was really able to build 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:10.439 the brand that year. Like we still got a lot 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:13.800 of press coverage, we still got a lot of influencer coverage, 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:17.400 and you know, was able to build the bread. Even 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.240 though the supply chain has since transformed significantly. 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:23.159 Well, that was gonna be my my next question. So 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:27.600 as your business has scaled up, and you know from 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:29.600 the numbers you were suggesting earlier, it sounds like it's 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.879 grown very very quickly. Has securing product become easier for you? 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:39.560 It's become easier and harder. Hece become easier because now 0:21:39.840 --> 0:21:42.440 you know, we have eighteen employees at the company and 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:47.080 it's they're a lot better it's hearing product than I 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.560 was by myself. So that part of internal resourcing has 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:55.440 become a lot easier. And then you know, we did 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:59.800 this big supply chain transformation in twenty twenty three. We 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.440 were really looking to go from that supply chain V 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.520 one that I described to to supply chain V two 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.600 that you know, the goal was the supply chain V 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:13.199 two could see us through essentially unlimited scale in the 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.800 American market. So we were looking for canaries that could 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:18.680 produce eighty million cans a year one hundred million cans 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:22.120 a year. So that was a transformation we went through, 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.119 and by and large, we have been able to scale 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:30.000