WEBVTT - Mathieu Chabran on Using Creativity to Compete 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:08.200 This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:12.639 This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:17.400 Matthew Chebron is the co founder of TKO Capital, a 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:22.520 Paris based alternative asset manager. They run over forty billion 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.000 dollars worth of assets. I found this to be really 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:32.280 a fascinating conversation about approaching the world of investing from 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.120 a different angle, being creative, thinking out of the box, 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:40.720 looking to not just imitate what other people do, but 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:45.000 create new opportunities by just thinking about the world differently. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.640 The conversation was really informative and quite fascinating. I thought 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:51.839 it was great and I think you will also with 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.880 no further ado my conversation with TKO Capitals. 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.680 Matthew Chebron, Thank you, Baron. 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.720 I forgot to mention you have received the Chevalier de 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.480 l'Ordre de la legend Anna by the President of the 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.720 French Republic in January twenty twenty two. We'll circle back 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:13.520 to that at some other point. I don't know how 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.760 relevant that is to asset management, but let's talk a 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.960 little bit about what you were doing before you were 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:23.479 being lauded by the French president. You went to school 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.679 in Paris, but you began your career in London at 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.920 Maryland Deutsche Bank. Tell us a little bit about that background. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.880 Yeah, no, that's right, Barry. You know, it's that's one 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:33.319 thing you know. 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:34.840 In Europe where. 0:01:36.600 --> 0:01:40.920 London was and actually think still remain, you know, the 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.440 one place where you know you want to get exposure 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.679 when you join financial services. So I was lucky to 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:50.880 get this summer internship at Marylynch back in the late nineties. 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.760 I met Antoine effectively my co founding partner, So that 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.600 was you know, a while back, but nonetheless, you know, 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.360 if it was love at first sight, but we got 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:04.600 to get along, you know, pretty well, and after a 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.600 few years working for investment banks, he then joined Goldman Sacks. 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:11.040 I joined effectively Dutch Bank. We decided, you know, to 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.360 try to have a go on our own. We were 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:20.520 twenty eight thirty respectively, and looking backwards as much as 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:25.920 investment banking, even with banks that no longer there was great. 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:29.040 You know, that was a great training. I think it 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:31.040 was a great training. I think you know, we learned 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:36.239 a lot. The exposure you know, you get in investment banking. 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:39.840 I was a leverage finance banker by background, and so 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:43.400 late nineties that the emergence of the high yield market 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:46.920 in Europe. You would print deals, you know, like never before. 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.320 You get this exposure. You're a young analyst associate. You 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.440 get to go on the road show with management teams. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:54.359 You know, I look backwards, that was a hell of 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.640 for training. You know, in terms of the exposure. 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.680 I can imagine was the plan when you were going 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.640 to school in Paris ways to go into finance or 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.000 were you originally leaning another direction? 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.359 In a prior to joining a business school in Paris, 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:11.280 I studied political sciences in my native Provence, you know, 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.519 in excellent province, and there was no hint at the time, 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.720 you know that I would be heading into into finance. 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:21.760 And so when I then got the exposure and getting 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.000 to learn with the great teachers, by the way, what 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.400 and again went back in you know, in the late nineties. 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:30.480 But then you start reading books and I'm not talking 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:34.680 about the theoretical books, but you know some experience, you know, 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:37.280 the people I remember these books, you know, reading the 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.680 you know Lias Poker from Michael Lewis, you know, reading 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:44.720 a Predator's Ball, you know about the milk and junk 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:47.240 bond and that's where you know, the excitement started and 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.360 you're like, you know, I have to get exposure to that. 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:53.320 So no, there was nothing written, but it was a 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:53.960 great step. 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.200 So fast forward to today. You now work in a 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.280 large European firm in the USA, but really you began 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.400 your career at big American firms in London. 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:06.920 That's right. 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.400 What are the cultural differences, like a US firm in 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:12.560 Europe versus European firm in the US. 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:17.520 Yeah, well it's an interesting, interesting question looking from the US. 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:19.680 But you know, at times, you know, Europe you know, 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.560 may may be an easy concept, but it's a very 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.880 complex reality. And so doing business in Europe is obviously 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.320 you know, it's all about being local because Italy is 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.560 not Spain, France is not you know, Germany. You know, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.479 at times people in London think that they cover in 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.000 the whole European playfield. But again it's a complex reality. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.200 So having met people back then, you know, Americans working 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.839 for these US banks, you know, now they understand that 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.800 and the one successful and even some of for you 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:55.880 know peers competitors friends American franchise who are competing and 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.400 tackling the European market. Very often the one successful and 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:01.560 very SUCCESSFU are the one who've been, you know, spending 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:03.479 a lot of time you know, on the ground, and 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:07.359 then on the contrary, hopefully having worked for US franchise, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:11.039 having spent time with the people and great mentors. You know, 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:15.039 for me, I now can hopefully understand better, you know, 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:18.719 the cultural difference, you know, as we expand here and 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:20.400 as I'm sure you know you would appreciate, you know, 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:23.960 being here in New York is a very different reality 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:27.800 than the rest of the the Americas, partly when it 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:31.400 comes down to visiting new clients. You know, in the Midwest, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.240 you know there are you know, the part you know 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.520 of the of the US. So hopefully there's a bit 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.000 of convergence here, you know, to make it worthwhile. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:40.240 I love the old spoiling great quote. I don't live 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:42.200 in America. I live in a small island off the 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.880 east coast of America. Because to your point, New York 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:48.240 is in Kansas City, and Kansas City is in Miami. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.880 But New York is definitely its own creature. 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:53.760 It is for sure, and you know, for us at TIKO, 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.480 it's been an important step to to open and expand 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:58.440 here in North America. 0:05:58.760 --> 0:05:59.960 You know, just background. 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.400 When I moved here five years ago this year in 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:08.240 twenty eighteen, you know, we had barely know relationships in 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.920 North America. We had made a few investments relationship from 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:13.839 a client standpoint, I mean fromn lpea standpoint. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:15.760 And fast forward. 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:17.600 You know today is close to ten percent of houra 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:19.720 a um that we have raised here. You know, we 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.719 launch new initiatives, We try not to be differentiating, and 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:24.719 obviously it's a long term game and you have to 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.360 be definitely long term greedy when you set up a business, 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.760 you know, in the in the US, but in the 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.920 business we're in today, in the alternative asset management space 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:36.960 as competitive it can be. 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:37.800 But you know, the. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.840 Structural opportunity now is such that the commitment as a 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.080 eure open that you have to make here has to 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.240 be long term. I made the commitment, you know, personally, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:48.320 and I can see the path, you know, because there 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:49.960 is room to expand the business. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.960 So let's talk about what led to the decision to 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.680 launch TKO Capital back in two thousand and four. Your 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.440 Deutsche Bank, your colleague ant One is a Goldman Sachs. 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.440 What made you say, hey, let's get the band back 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:03.119 together again. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:05.320 Well, you know what, it's actually back to what I was, 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.840 you know, just saying, we were watching all these franchise 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.880 being launched, and obviously at the top of them, you know, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.440 all the one you can think of, who are you know, 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.560 leading the industry today, But back then they were you know, 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:20.200 managing you a few tens of billions of dollars, which 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.600 was you know, enormous back then, based only a fraction 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.840 of what they are today. And we were seeing all 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:30.200 these American franchise, you know, launching in in Europe, you know, 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:32.040 out of London, and we're like, you know, why don't 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:32.560 we give you a go? 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:33.200 I mean, we. 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.120 Learned leverage finance, we learned you know, real estate that 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.440 we knew, how yield we knew, you know, opportunittic investment, 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.680 and we're like, it's never too late, it's never too early, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.560 and we decided to go with you know, a huge 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.720 four million aum that we had gathered from friends and family. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.240 So you can appreciate, you know, the challenge back then, 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:56.360 but you have to start somewhere. 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.040 Right that that's walking around cash back back then. So 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:01.640 let's talk about not too late, not too early. You 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:06.360 launch right after the dot com enplosure, correct, but a 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.239 few years before the Great Financial Crisis? 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:09.400 Right? 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.560 What was that period like? What was that lull like 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:16.960 between those two giant volatility events. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.880 It was an experience because you know, the dot com bubble. 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:24.600 I remember being a young associate at Merrill Lynch and 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:28.120 all the investment bank they had to reinvent themselves, you know, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:31.160 to make sure they could remember this retain talent, you 0:08:31.160 --> 0:08:33.040 know that we've been hearing, you know lately again, you know, 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.840 And so they were creating some cool working space and 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:39.440 you would no longer you know, wear a tie and 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.480 all that, which was all form of a substance. And 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.480 as if there was a shift. And then you have 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:46.960 this ramp up from effective VO four when we launched 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.079 to the GFC and we're three years, four years into business, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.520 you know at TKO, and I remember, you know, we 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:56.120 feel extremely proud because then we were banking, you know, 0:08:56.160 --> 0:08:59.000 with Beochtern. So we're banking with Lehman Brothers. And that 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.920 was you know a step in the entrepreneurial development. And 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.959 then all of a sudden, over the weekend, those banks 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.960 are gone, and so you're like a young entrepreneur leaving 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:13.480 this nearness experience despite thinking that you were close to 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.559 certainty because you were working with the best institution and 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:18.920 counter party you can think of. And then all of 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.280 a sudden, it's all about how you see and look 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.040 at the world. Never take anything for granted, always be, 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:28.640 you know, in the world of challenging everything. So it's 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.959 not good for your stomach pain, you know, every morning, 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.480 but only the paranoid survive. And I think that was 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:35.920 a great learning experience. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.720 So let's talk about what took place post bear Stearns 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:43.960 and post Liman From a business perspective, bear Stearns gets 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:48.680 absorbed into JP Morgan Chase, so your contacts at bear 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:52.319 Stearns are still in business. The best parts of Liman 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:55.679 brother get absorbed into Barclay. So I got to imagine 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:57.520 a lot of the folks you were doing business with 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.560 at those places landed on their feet and you still 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.240 had some relationship or am I being too sanguine about no? 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.520 No, there was a bit of all of the above. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.520 But more importantly for us, you know in Aura, you 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.760 know development, As I said, it was about you know, 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:16.199 never taking anything for granting and granted because you know, 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.200 Lehman Brothers. Is what a single a rated bank on 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.120 the Friday night and it's defaulted, you know, on. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:21.840 The Monday morning. 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.880 And even if I'm sketching a bit, you know, from 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.360 there on at the time where eight hundred million a UM, 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.360 I guess we have a team of twenty twenty five people, 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:33.640 most of them still being with us today, by the way. 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:36.560 And it's great when you've been to work together, if 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.800 you allow me, because then you know, you just have 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:40.160 to look at someone in the eyes and you know 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:41.920 exactly how they're going to be eight because we've been 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.560 through that, you know, together. And so for us, you know, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.719 beyond the people and beyond the institution, it was the 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.840 beginning of a second phase of the journey. I like 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.960 to say, maybe not less naive about you know, how 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:58.600 easy all these things are, because they're not easy. Steve 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.680 Schwartzman wrote his book called What it Takes, you know, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.280 And so for us, that was every single being equal, 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.520 the beginning of the second phase of the journey, where 0:11:07.559 --> 0:11:10.199 it was no longer the teasing part. You were effectively 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.439 like into the real stuff. Now on the positive and 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:16.240 the civil lining was that this whole situation started you know, 0:11:16.360 --> 0:11:19.599 putting a lot of light on let's say, the alternative 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.760 market private debt. Private credit was unheard of in Europe 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.599 until the banks effectively went into this massive liquidity squeeze 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.840 and all those asset managers had to you know, step 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:33.360 in and feel this void. 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:34.800 Great opportunity for US. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.719 Private equity at the time was only about buyout an 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.520 LBO only if you had heard about, you know, the 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:45.040 growth equity part where you need to strengthen an entrepreneurial 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.680 companies in a balance sheet, because it's not you know, 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:50.560 she's not trying to sell the business. It's just about 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.080 you know, making sure you find the right partners, you know, 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.280 to strengthen the balance sheet, and so so and so. 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.680 You know, we started a new period. Adding on top 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:03.280 of that, you know this very accommuniting military policy. Well 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:07.280 that was the beginning of a new chapter for private 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:10.720 markets and we were lucky, you know, to effectively embark 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.320 on this journey at this time. 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:13.600 So let me. 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.439 Follow up on the financial crisis the period afterwards. Clearly 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:22.360 it was highly disruptive, lots of damage done, lots of 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:25.640 people lost their jobs, lots of businesses went out. But 0:12:25.760 --> 0:12:29.800 it sounds like a lot of opportunities were created in 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:30.600 what came after. 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.240 It was certainly the case for us again, you know, 0:12:35.559 --> 0:12:40.000 many challenges, but with the hard work and with people 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:45.800 who could see, you know, the opportunity, and publicly with 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:53.360 the European approach, thinking that, yes, you can develop a 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:58.880 very multi local footprint organization in Europe, be an alternative 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:03.640 to global investment tours to clients, to the to the 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.080 one established you know mainly you know, mainly Americans. You know, 0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:08.880 I must admit that was very exciting, you know, it 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.439 was very exciting to get into that and to a 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:15.400 certain extent, you know, we had been looking forward for 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.120 the day where we could face another of those crises, 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.680 and we all know they're all different, but better prepared, 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.920 better prepared, you know, with more resources, with the more 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.040 powerful platform, with a bigger footprint and living you know, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.120 COVID aside living you know, I don't know Brexit aside 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.920 leaving all these little steps. Over the past ten years, 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.360 twelve years, we've been you know, getting better prepared, you know, 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:42.440 for when the cycle changed and we may have entered 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.800 you know, this new this new chapter of this new 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.240 cycle raising interest rates started you know a year ago 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.320 where of the view that it's no, it's not getting 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.160 lower anytime soon, and so we go back to the 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.439 basics of what our job should be risk on the 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:04.240 writing risk assessment. Asset prices are different from asset valuation. 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.599 I mean the valuation in the future cash flow discounted 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:12.240 at the risk cre rate perscualisk premium. Well, guess what 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.280 the risk cree rate now is five percent is no 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.840 longer zero, and the risk premium is closer to five 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:17.440 percent than. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:18.000 It is from two. 0:14:18.480 --> 0:14:20.280 And so all of a sudden, the whole merits of 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:24.280 our job gets back into the center of the pitch, 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:26.680 and that makes our drop much more exciting. You know, 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.320 we've never been more excited that we've been for the 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:30.840 past twelve months to invest today. 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:36.920 So let's talk about what brought TKO to the US. Clearly, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:39.400 you guys were very successful in Europe. You now have 0:14:39.480 --> 0:14:43.720 thirteen offices around the world. Is it just the size 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:44.680 of the US market? 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:45.960 What was the attraction here? 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.120 Well, I mean size is definitely you know a reason, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.640 But I would add we had just gone public at 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.520 the time, you know, twenty seventeen, and for us, the 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:00.560 leasting maybe way before it became more preyed you know, 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:05.040 in the recent years was the main objective of the 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:08.720 listing barrier was really to promote the brand, the franchise. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.240 We never saw the single share on the occasion of this. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.280 You guys only allowed a small piece to go. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.359 Public, right, that's right, and all our historical backers, shareholders, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.440 they actually you know, kept on supporting the business. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:22.760 You know. 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:25.560 We tapped these here market twice and they all you know, 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:31.520 reinforced their ownership. So unlike many IPOs which are away, 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.360 you know, to monetize the business, for us, it was 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.480 about really about rationalizing the platform. We had just come 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.520 out of thirteen fourteen years of very entrepreneurial development during 0:15:41.520 --> 0:15:44.520 a period as you mentioned, which was pretty bumpy, and 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.040 so it was a great way to rationalize the platform. 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.880 Come with one brand, one name, getting the name out there. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.960 So that was in twenty seventeen when public on Neuron 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:58.240 next Paris and coming to the US. Was there was 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.760 no other alternity than coming to the US, you know, 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.040 at some point, and we thought the timing was right 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:06.600 both because we had now we are then you know, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:11.320 twenty billion aum. We've been in in Asia for a 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.080 few years and it had been extremely promising and so 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:15.800 I decided, you know, to come here, you know, to 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:19.600 promote this brand, to convert into a commercial relationship, raising 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.520 more capital towards US investors, which to your point is 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.560 one of the deepest market in the world. And then 0:16:25.560 --> 0:16:28.080 also you know, start deploying capital here in the US. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.120 Not that there is a shortage of capital you know, 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.280 by no means, but as we like to say, you know, 0:16:33.360 --> 0:16:38.400 create not compete. And so we started initially like secondary 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:43.360 private credit, you know, private debt was a mainstream developed 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:46.200 strategy here I mean globally and here in the US. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:47.920 I think we're one of the first one to move 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.480 into secondary private credit. You know, fast forward a couple 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.120 of fields. Three years now we can demonstrate the merits 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.760 of the strategy, the track record of the strategy. We 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:01.080 started expanding into a mid market infrastructure. That was right 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.159 before the you know, the Biden election and all the 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.040 focusing on infrastructure, when we were not active in infrastructure 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.040 in Europe. So we try to find some play that 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.080 could differentiate ourselves. Not only is a v you know, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.760 European and Asian investors, but also here in the US 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.760 to be able to tell a different story to LPs. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.439 With one key differentiating factor is the skin in the 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:24.760 game that we have, you know, as a structure and 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:26.320 as founders into the organization. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.600 So a lot of companies that go public then have 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.119 a valuable currency they can use for acquisitions. How did 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:34.960 that plag into the thinking. 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:37.240 Yeah, that's right, and we you know, we use that 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.960 a couple of times very selectively since going up public 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.000 Infras you know, was one of them. 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.040 Another one in a. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.520 Real estate you know, in Europe, and I mean they 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:53.080 were very selective bolt on acquisition, you know, an acquisition 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:56.520 in our businesses is always a big bet, right It's 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:00.880 we're in the people business, and you need the chemistry, 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.400 I mean, you need the culture you know, to work out. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.199 But you know, looking forward, it's certainly we're in a 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.479 better position today to come to your acquisition than we 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:12.320 were in a few years ago. So as the market 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.000 and the industry restructure, you know, we will certainly be 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.760 very very opportunistic. 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.400 It's kind of interesting the thought of Bolton as opposed 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.359 to within the same space, there's a long history of 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.719 financial acquisitions that didn't really work out all that well 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.880 because of the chemistry as most of the cultural issues. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.119 But something you said earlier really stood out to me. 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.119 You want to create, not compete. So let's talk a 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.359 little bit about how you guys at TKO think differently. 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:47.760 Tell us or a Steve Jobs term think different tell 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.360 us how you approach the world differently than a lot 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:52.320 of your competitors. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.560 You know, when we studied, as they told you, extremely 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.119 extremely modest, there were plenty of franchise out there. And 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.200 you know, even if you talk to private investors, high 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.840 networth family offices can be a bit more nimble in 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.600 the way. You know, they approach their asset a location. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.840 They need to see a reason why they would go, 0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.480 you know, with what was back then a tk who 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.000 more than a TKO, you know, and find you know, 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.160 and and find a reason why you know, they would 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.840 allocate there back then. You know, in Europe back in 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.200 the day when we start doing you know, private credit 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:26.879 direct lending today is very much mainstream. I can tell 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:30.359 you that that that back then it was not you know, 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.399 at the time, they even called it shadow banking. You know, 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.040 in Europe it's been quite a wild since you know, 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.000 I last read about shadow banking be so it's become 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.600 so mainstream and structural. You know today that it's really 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.280 part of the year. So we've always tried to effectively 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.560 be a little bit I don't know how it comes across, 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.040 and it's not the underdog, but you know, coming with 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.440 something that is different so that you can slay. Yeah, 0:19:51.560 --> 0:19:54.400 so that you can make you know, a name for yourself, 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.120 and then you know, use these adjacencies at the business 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:01.440 then to scale and make them very mainstream. I was 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.080 saying the secondary private credit that we launched a couple 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.679 of years ago. Now here in New York, it's becoming 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:09.320 a bit more mainstream. Every day I would see one 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.680 of the large Belch bracket banks, you know, launching or 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:13.680 speaking about the INSUAD. But like, well, maybe that was 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.119 a good idea we had, and competition is good, by 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.960 the way, you know, nothing wrong about competition, but at 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.760 least you've established, you know, a name for yourself and 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.520 obviously got the track record and you can, you know, 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:27.080 you can showcase that. So that's step one. The second thing, 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:30.920 bar if I may, is you know, in our industry, 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:34.280 what should make the biggest difference is the skin in 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.240 the game that the managers you know, put into their business. 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.919 I like to say that in our industry, you come 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.240 across a lot of people who are willing to make 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.000 money with someone else money. You came across less people 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.720 willing to make some money with the kids money. Any entrepreneur, 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:57.120 you know is you know, is taking risks by you know, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.520 borrowing some capital and investing into his. 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:01.040 Business, whatever the business is. 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.480 And in our industry at times, I think that there's 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:06.760 been a little bit of. 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:09.760 Irony, not to. 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:13.760 Say hypocrisy in the way that we showcase the skin 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:16.439 in the game. I don't think carried interest is a 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.920 great alignment of interest. The only alignment of interest in 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:23.080 the amount of capital that any given manager firm is 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:27.920 putting into its fund. You when you read that, okay, well, 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:30.320 you know we put you know, one percent of the fund, 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.960 you know, as commitment from the GP. The fund is 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.000 a billion, you know, we put ten million. It's a 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.840 lot of money, yes, but you're charging two percent for 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:39.680 the next ten years, so the option cost is not 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:40.920 that high. 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:42.520 When you're putting. 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:45.640 Ten percent twenty percent of your balance sheet capital side 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:48.560 by side with your LP. You can do a basic 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.120 Excel spreadsheet and you'll see, you know, what is at 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.119 stake and that effectively, yes, you're going to make some 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.520 money on the management fees on the performance field of 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:59.120 the carried interest, but you know what you have at 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.439 stake side by side with your client is a totally 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.560 different magnitude. And I think this is where the industry 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:09.800 should be heading. And many or for you know, peers, competitors, 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.560 they all have different models, but the one with significant 0:22:13.600 --> 0:22:16.720 skin in the game from the GP, from the partners, 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.200 from the balance sheet and going public by the way, 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.760 bar it was a great way for us to strengthen 0:22:22.080 --> 0:22:25.399 this equity base, which is you know, partner zone and 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:30.240 control and management own to effectively create what has been 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.760 so far, certainly in Europe, a second to none skin 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:34.320 in the game model. 0:22:34.640 --> 0:22:36.440 I like the way that sounds. Let's talk a little 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.520 bit about Europe. If we look at the past few decades, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:42.920 Europe out performed the US and the two thousands. While 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.639 we were going through dot com and financial crisis in 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.720 the twenty tens, the US markets were just on fire 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.200 and really did very well. Twenty twenties things started out 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:55.600 a little shaky. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:56.760 How do you. 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.520 Compare the investment environment in Europe over the past few 0:23:01.560 --> 0:23:03.680 decades versus the US. 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:08.119 Well, both of them were obviously driven by interest rates, 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.919 and they moved you know, the same direction, but in 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:14.960 different patterns. And when we first got into negative interest 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:17.560 rates in Europe a few years ago on the back 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:20.240 of the euro crisis, you know, and post the GFC 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:22.879 first with the sovereigns, but then you know, with the 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.200 IG market, with the investment grade market, you had corporates 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.840 basically borrowing you know, one hundred and being asked, you know, 0:23:29.920 --> 0:23:32.960 to give back ninety eight. And today, you know, when 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.879 you look backwards and with no back trading, you're like, 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:39.480 you know, okay, what you know, what were we thinking about, 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.320 you know, back then, because for what we do, and 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:46.040 I mean, you know, the business Barry like risk underwriting 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:50.280 is about effectively scaling the risk, you know, the return, 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:55.439 and we were in a very awkward environment. And so 0:23:55.480 --> 0:24:00.040 that's why I was surprised to see so many people surprised. 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:03.159 You know, a year ago May twenty two, you know, 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:05.720 interest rates started rising and all of a sudden, the 0:24:05.760 --> 0:24:11.399 whole software were bugged. I mean, what we do is 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:13.960 not rocket science, and it all come down to the 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:19.520 value of liquidity and the cost of credit. And then 0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:22.080 we can start, you know, doing what we are supposed 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:23.840 to be doing. You know risk and the writing, and 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:26.960 so Europe US went into different patterns on the way 0:24:27.000 --> 0:24:29.199 down and very different on the way up. I mean 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:33.640 here in the US, obviously you were much more reactive, 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.400 you know, in raising rates. Rightly, so in my view, 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.760 maybe Europe is lagging a bit that time around. You know, 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:45.800 they were actually faster at reducing interest rates even so 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:51.040 into negative territory. But there is a little bit of 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.480 the coupling you know, going on right now, and for 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:55.359 us it's a great way partly, you know, a tico 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:59.000 where we are, you know, we are very exposed to 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:03.280 the yield play credit in FRA real estate, be spoke 0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:07.040 credit and so all that's are the starting point of 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:08.480 this risk underwriting. 0:25:08.760 --> 0:25:11.080 So let's talk a little bit about the difference between 0:25:11.080 --> 0:25:14.880 the twenty tens and the twenty twenties. Starting with Hey, 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.879 it's pretty arguable that by the time the FED began 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:21.200 raising rates here in the United States, they were already 0:25:21.200 --> 0:25:24.360 behind the curve. Their two percent target had been hit 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:28.280 a year earlier, and CPI kept going higher. So if 0:25:28.320 --> 0:25:32.119 the FED was behind the curve, how much further behind 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:34.840 the curve of the central banks in Europe in terms 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:36.600 of dealing with their inflation issues. 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:41.679 The you know, central banks in the US and in 0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:44.439 Europe they may have a different mandate, you know, one 0:25:44.520 --> 0:25:46.800 might be more political, you know than the others. And 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:48.720 at times, you know, when you have to effectively finance 0:25:48.760 --> 0:25:51.760 you know, all the deficiats, you know, you have to 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.760 be mindful that you need to be able, you know, 0:25:54.800 --> 0:25:57.040 to issue, you know, to issue and you pay down 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:02.000 this debt. I think that you know, right now, and 0:26:02.040 --> 0:26:05.919 without getting into too many political details, I mean, Europe 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:09.040 is probably is not in a good place relative to 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:13.560 where they were in reacting to COVID for example, or 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:18.400 reacting to the euro crisis you know, ten years ago. 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:23.359 I mean, the political situation in Europe has created indirectly 0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:27.120 some effect maybe on the on the ECB and as 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.960 much you know, I mean, Christian Legards has been doing 0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:34.280 a terrific job after a Mario drug you know there. 0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:36.920 But the institution you know. 0:26:36.960 --> 0:26:40.760 Maybe should be a bit a boulder, you know, in 0:26:40.840 --> 0:26:44.280 the way you're tackling this, this inflation issue, because we 0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:48.840 all know that period of very low interest rates create 0:26:48.920 --> 0:26:53.879 massive inequality, inequality you know, between people having access to 0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:56.000 credit and the people who don't have access to credit, 0:26:56.080 --> 0:26:59.919 and as in people, it's individual, it's corporate, its states, 0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.440 and so ironically, you know, you save a system, but 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:06.200 you make it to be more inequal in the way 0:27:06.280 --> 0:27:08.240 people came out of this period. 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:12.440 So that's really interesting. During the post financial crisis era 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:18.280 of very low rates, anything priced in credit, real estate equities, 0:27:18.400 --> 0:27:21.960 bonds did really well. Certainly that helps the top ten 0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:26.199 percent in the United States. During COVID, rather than just 0:27:26.240 --> 0:27:31.040 a monetary response, we saw a massive fiscal response which 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:35.320 seemed to have really helped across the entire economic strata, 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:40.200 especially the middle class. So what do our experiences post 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:44.080 financial crisis, post COVID tell us about the need for 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:47.360 balance between monetary and fiscal stimulus. 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.359 Yeah, you're absolutely right. But by the same token, we 0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:54.280 know that right now. I'm not an economist, but you know, 0:27:54.400 --> 0:27:56.720 in the US, in Europe, you know, the inflation, the 0:27:56.760 --> 0:27:59.720 structural inflation, people might have a different view about that 0:28:00.480 --> 0:28:05.080 is certainly hurting, you know, the one with the less 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:13.000 you know resources, you know obviously food, energy, housing, and 0:28:13.119 --> 0:28:17.320 not even talking about you know, school, healthcare. And obviously 0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:20.080 in Europe we have a totally different different you know, 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:26.399 environment and about this this matter. So's it's a tricky situation. 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:29.200 And where I think, as SAT managers have a role 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:32.639 to play is in making sure that whenever someone is 0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:37.840 saving a dollar or investing a billion dollar, you know, 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:42.040 be a private investor or large insitual investors, is that 0:28:42.120 --> 0:28:46.560 there is the appropriate risk return associated with the strategy 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:49.680 that is being implemented. That was very complicated to do 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:54.120 in the zero interest rates environment because everyone through the 0:28:54.200 --> 0:28:56.600 dices and it was a double six because you can 0:28:56.680 --> 0:29:00.160 only make it right when money is free. Because when 0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:02.880 money is free, investment has no merits, you know. And 0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.840 now that we are in a situation where money are 0:29:05.880 --> 0:29:09.360 some value, then you can be discriminating and that should 0:29:09.400 --> 0:29:13.560 benefit again the one individual saving a dollar or the 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:18.840 one institutional investing a billion, and that in that respect, 0:29:19.040 --> 0:29:22.280 regardless of this macro situation. 0:29:22.520 --> 0:29:23.440 If I can come. 0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:26.080 Back to our role, as I said, managers, that's where 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:26.920 we have a role to play. 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.160 So let's talk a little bit about valuations relative to 0:29:30.400 --> 0:29:35.400 risk and reward. Arguably, the United States, both the public 0:29:35.480 --> 0:29:39.080 markets and the private markets are not cheap today. They're 0:29:39.120 --> 0:29:42.960 not crazy dot com expensive, but they're certainly not inexpensive. 0:29:43.480 --> 0:29:46.240 How does Europe and the rest of the world compare 0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:48.959 on evaluation basis to the US. 0:29:50.800 --> 0:29:54.000 Maybe because I come from a leverage finance backgrounds, As 0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:58.160 I told you, I tend always to focus on the downside. 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:02.840 But I also learned along the way that you rarely 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:07.520 die I mean as a company from your from your 0:30:07.600 --> 0:30:09.920 P and L or from your assets, but you always 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:14.360 die from your liabilities. And I think that effectively, this 0:30:15.360 --> 0:30:20.280 excess in very cheap money, this success in leverage, this 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:26.800 success in thinking that you could access unlimited for an 0:30:26.800 --> 0:30:31.080 indefinite period of time of cheap to free capital, may 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:37.760 have created some the wrong asset allocation pattern in some places. 0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:41.760 So I think we've now entered a period where we 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:49.680 have to swallow this whole mispriced over leveled assets out there. 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:53.880 Corporate create was one obviously the bonds, I mean the 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.520 sovereign bond market, and we remember the SVB story. 0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:57.720 It's about you know, t. 0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:02.440 Builds, and then you obviously the real estate. You know, 0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:06.720 many areas that were over leveled at the wrong cost, 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:10.200 and that could be painful because someone will have to 0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:13.240 take the pain, even if you know, unlike two thousand 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:15.720 and eight, where the risk was concentrated, you know on 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:20.120 banks boundary today is much more spread across let's say, 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:23.320 you know, asset managers, but you have to find a 0:31:23.320 --> 0:31:27.000 way to dry up all this excess of liquidity which 0:31:27.120 --> 0:31:31.920 was necessary on the one hand, but maybe mispriced on 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:36.760 the other hand. And so today I think that part 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:42.440 of the IG fixed rate corporate bond market obviously you know, 0:31:42.560 --> 0:31:46.440 part of the real estate and you know, we've been 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:52.080 talking at length about that we'll have to to suffer 0:31:52.240 --> 0:31:55.480 some of the pain or lossits in some where, shape 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.800 or form. As always on the other side of this 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:03.160 trade that we'll create, you know, great opportunities for people liquid, nimble, 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:07.240 who don't have to carry age, you know, in ventories. 0:32:07.240 --> 0:32:11.000 You know, if I, if I may say, I have 0:32:11.040 --> 0:32:13.600 the impression that the US will. 0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:16.240 Be more. 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:19.680 Realistic in the way they approach that, you know, in 0:32:19.800 --> 0:32:21.840 terms of you know, taking the heat, taking the pain 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:26.360 starting again in Europe, maybe there's a little bit of 0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:31.160 preten and extent game, but it's always better, you know, 0:32:31.240 --> 0:32:35.400 to you know, what has to be done ultimately, you know, 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:37.080 should be done immediately. 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:38.040 As they had a band aid off. 0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:41.800 Exactly, and that's what we should do when it comes 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:43.880 to financial risk and financial pricing. 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:48.880 So you mentioned the access liquidly is causing accesses and 0:32:49.240 --> 0:32:54.440 the locations have higher fed rates and other around the 0:32:54.480 --> 0:32:57.320 world higher interest rates, taking some of that out of 0:32:57.360 --> 0:33:02.040 the system and combined, what is the impact of the 0:33:02.120 --> 0:33:05.040 regional banks that have gone value up? A handful of them, 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.280 but it certainly has put the fear of God into 0:33:08.320 --> 0:33:11.120 a lot of small banking shops. What does that do 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:13.880 to all the access liquidity that's out there. 0:33:14.480 --> 0:33:16.960 You know, on the regional bank rather not common. I'm 0:33:17.000 --> 0:33:19.000 not an expert, and it came in as if you 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:23.280 has a surprise how quickly large, very large institution you know, 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:28.480 could get into some liquidity liquidity stress. Coming back to 0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:32.360 my comment again, you know it's your liability side, and 0:33:32.400 --> 0:33:35.440 there's been a plenty of comment there. What I see 0:33:35.760 --> 0:33:39.000 is that once again for asset managers, it's a very 0:33:39.000 --> 0:33:42.560 interesting structural opportunity because it creates a bit of void, 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:45.520 you know, in terms of the market that we can 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:49.120 fill in in some way, shape or form. So I 0:33:49.160 --> 0:33:54.840 think that on the positive side, investors allocators today they 0:33:54.840 --> 0:34:00.480 can effectively allocate capital into strategies which will create a 0:34:00.560 --> 0:34:06.000 compounding effect to their portfolio because what was I don't know, 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:10.200 three four percent in some strategies two years ago now 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:13.200 can be eight to ten. And so when you start, 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:17.320 you know, compounding your new allocation into these type of 0:34:17.360 --> 0:34:19.920 strategies that can make up for the part of your 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:22.279 portfolio which itself you know, could be a little bit 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.600 underwater as a consequence of those rising interest rates you 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:27.440 know again, credit, you know, real estate. 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:27.640 What have you. 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:31.279 So that's the positive. You have to be able to 0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:33.920 do that, right, So how do you do that? I mean, 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.480 if you have effectively the denominator's effect that people have 0:34:36.520 --> 0:34:39.560 been you know talking about, or you know, more liquidity 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:42.880 constraint because cash is not coming back as quickly as 0:34:42.920 --> 0:34:46.000 you had anticipated, because your managers cannot sell their portfolio. 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:48.160 Something the secondary market. 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:50.759 Has been developing like crazy on the private equity for example, 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.040 as I said, private credit, you know, is another one. 0:34:53.080 --> 0:34:56.120 Real estate will be an obvious one, you know, given 0:34:56.160 --> 0:34:59.200 the amount of capital out there. And so it's about 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:01.200 being prepared to say, Okay, I've been making you know, 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:05.399 five six seven percent on this strategy, maybe I will 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.680 you know, exit the strategy, albeit at a discount, you know, 0:35:08.760 --> 0:35:12.640 the lowest possible, but the proceeds will be able to 0:35:12.680 --> 0:35:16.560 be gener reinvested into strategy that will generate a higher 0:35:16.600 --> 0:35:19.839 return which over a short medium time frame, can make 0:35:19.960 --> 0:35:22.719 up you know, for this cash flow requirement that I 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:24.880 need for my pensioneers or you know what I have. 0:35:25.000 --> 0:35:30.240 You So, I'm actually very optimistic that all asset owners, 0:35:30.480 --> 0:35:33.040 asset locators, the one can be nimble. 0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:35.040 You know. It's a very exciting time I heard. 0:35:35.600 --> 0:35:42.240 Let's talk a little bit about how TKO champions impact investing. Obviously, 0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:45.160 the goal is to get to some sort of sustainable future. 0:35:45.760 --> 0:35:47.279 What your investment these is there? 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:51.440 Yeah, I think we were relatively early in what has 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:55.040 become a very mainstream strategy, you know, right rightly so, 0:35:56.480 --> 0:36:00.319 and that was really you know, a combination of many factors. 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:05.120 We launched our very first growth equity growth private equity 0:36:05.880 --> 0:36:10.279 strategy in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, way before you know 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:12.120 it has as I said, you know, become you know, 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:17.160 a must have strategy for many managers and for many allocators. 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.239 We started doing that because in Europe we've been investing 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:25.799 alongside entrepreneurs, families. As I said, well, not the buyout shop. 0:36:25.880 --> 0:36:27.680 You know, we don't take control, you know, we don't 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:30.239 level up company. We're trying to, you know, in our 0:36:30.320 --> 0:36:33.040 role of the middleman between the asset owners you know, 0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:37.320 and the companies to allocate where we see the financial play, 0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:41.279 but an impactful financial play. So when we started the 0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:47.680 strategy in seventeen eighteen and started allocating capital investing in 0:36:47.880 --> 0:36:51.200 entrepreneurs who had a solution that had to be massify 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.640 because when you want to meet this target and these goals, 0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:58.399 you know, in terms of a climate of CEO two, 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:01.440 you know, reduction, it's great to be investing in what 0:37:01.600 --> 0:37:05.239 will change in twenty by twenty fifty, but it's more 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:09.080 important to find what works today and needs to be massified, 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.520 scale up. You know, we're investing in profitable mid market 0:37:13.560 --> 0:37:16.759 companies making twenty twenty five to fifty million. 0:37:16.480 --> 0:37:18.200 A BDA and needed capital in. 0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:21.239 Those guys are not looking to sell the company, they 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.600 need the capital in to scale. And we started doing 0:37:24.640 --> 0:37:29.600 that across lo carbon mobility, across energy efficiencies of the 0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:31.560 buildings as you know, you know it's forty percent of 0:37:31.560 --> 0:37:34.920 the green gas emission, and so we started doing that. 0:37:35.280 --> 0:37:35.960 I would say, you know. 0:37:36.000 --> 0:37:40.040 Naturally five years later, we now can you represent effectively 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:43.240 the case studies? You know, obviously the truck record it matters, 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:46.640 but people want to understand what we're talking about when 0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:49.600 we're talking about this type of fum impact investing here, 0:37:49.640 --> 0:37:53.840 it's about climate. We then launch you know, regenerative agricultural 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:57.880 strategy because one of the key objective is how do 0:37:57.960 --> 0:38:01.319 you capture carbon and there's nothing like you know, the 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:04.440 soil and the ground, you know, to help do that. 0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:06.760 That's on the equity side. And then we started doing 0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:10.640 some private credit impact financing. 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:11.600 What does that mean? 0:38:11.920 --> 0:38:15.280 You're a borrower, We're lending you some money at five percent, 0:38:15.400 --> 0:38:17.520 you're three times you know, a BDA. We take all 0:38:17.560 --> 0:38:22.279 the traditional credit metrics of a financial analysis, and then 0:38:22.320 --> 0:38:26.560 we add a third dimension. If you hit certain target, 0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:30.839 certain goals, extra financial goals, then you will improve your 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.600 cost of funding and your five percent coupon will go 0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:36.720 down to four if effectively you demonstrate that you're reduced 0:38:37.120 --> 0:38:41.319 by X or Y or change, you know, this production process, 0:38:42.000 --> 0:38:44.520 and all of a sudden you realize that if your 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:48.160 cost of funding goes down as a consequence of some 0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:52.040 extra financial goals being met, well your written on equity 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:56.040 goes up right, And so you can demonstrate that it's 0:38:56.080 --> 0:38:58.720 not about being a philanthropy, it's about you know, making 0:38:58.719 --> 0:39:01.319 sure that we use the capital available to send it, 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:04.440 you know, where it makes sense, and then all stakeholders, 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:08.279 you know, a benefit from it. And so as much 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:12.200 as five years ago it was nice to have and 0:39:12.280 --> 0:39:15.279 once again create not compete, we're trying to push that 0:39:15.400 --> 0:39:16.600 forward today. 0:39:17.000 --> 0:39:17.960 It's not negotiable. 0:39:18.239 --> 0:39:21.359 It's not negotiable with our LPs. It's not negotiable with 0:39:21.360 --> 0:39:24.400 our customers, with our partners, with our banks, with our clients, 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:26.799 with our staff, Barry, I mean when we talk to 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:33.000 some of our twenty something thirty something colleagues, professionals, it's 0:39:33.080 --> 0:39:38.640 part of their commitment to the firm because one big 0:39:38.640 --> 0:39:40.360 issue you know, in this when it comes to this 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:48.160 impact and YESG let's say in the wider sense, at best, 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:52.040 you can come across very opportunistic. At worst you'll come 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:56.680 across as fake. And in both situations it's not good. 0:39:56.880 --> 0:40:00.200 And so as you know, our colleagues are staff, you 0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.200 know people, and all the stakeholders, I mean there are 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:04.080 the guardians. 0:40:04.600 --> 0:40:05.600 Uh, they are. 0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:11.000 The truats of us, you know, being real here. So again, 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:13.200 now it's no longer nice to have. It's a must have, 0:40:13.320 --> 0:40:15.759 and it's uh, there's only one way. 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:19.320 So ESG seems to have found a lot of support 0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:22.319 in Europe. Are you a little bit surprised about how 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.080 this has become politicized in the US. 0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:26.319 It seems like. 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.720 There are a group of people who are pushing back 0:40:29.360 --> 0:40:34.560 against impact investing, sustainable investing, not because of the returns, 0:40:34.640 --> 0:40:36.640 but they just don't like the politics of it. 0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:40.640 Yep, I'm not surprised because, you know, and again I'm 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.120 an alien here, but you know, I'm I try to 0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:45.000 be an observer, you know, of the dynamic of the 0:40:45.920 --> 0:40:49.760 of the politics here in the USA, and we even 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:53.520 experiment that ourselves, you know, with some some of our 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:59.840 LPs very often made up of different boats, some teachers, 0:41:00.000 --> 0:41:05.520 I mean, policemen, you know, employees, you know, public public servants, employees, 0:41:05.560 --> 0:41:10.120 and whilst we were dealing with the same counterparty, the 0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:14.359 same pension fund, some of their constituents, some of the 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:16.640 underlying boats disagree on. 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:17.839 The approach to take there. 0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:24.080 So we've experienced that firsthand that within won't given investor, 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:27.160 you know, asset owner, there could be some divergence and 0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:29.279 very often now I can say, because there was a 0:41:29.320 --> 0:41:35.239 bit of misunderstanding of what we were trying to do and. 0:41:35.160 --> 0:41:38.080 What others, you know, are trying to do so. 0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:41.440 I'm hopeful that with a bit of education, you know, 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:47.840 the science based approach, people we realize that it's not 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:49.919 a politic It shouldn't be a political game. 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.240 I understand why. I'm not native. 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.560 I understand why, but I think the majority should prevail 0:41:56.600 --> 0:42:01.280 to understand that the asset owners today, the asset managers 0:42:01.280 --> 0:42:04.440 who can help them deploy, you know, the capitol, have 0:42:04.520 --> 0:42:08.960 an historical mission because we will be we will be 0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:12.680 judging fifty years down down the road. I mean, people 0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:15.920 will look back and say, you know, what did you 0:42:16.040 --> 0:42:19.520 do with the amount of capital that was available back 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:24.840 then to effectively direct this capitol to to where it matters. 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:29.120 So I'm trying to take you know, this perspective because effectively, 0:42:29.120 --> 0:42:32.359 we've never been in an environment with so much cheap 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:34.920 liquidity that could be used purposely. 0:42:35.680 --> 0:42:40.120 So you talked about esg ratchets where people get better 0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:44.560 rates if they hit certain metrics, and you talked a 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:50.319 little bit about agriculture regenera of agriculture. Explain for those 0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:53.759 of us not familiar with that, what is regenera of agriculture? 0:42:53.840 --> 0:42:55.799 What is the focus? What do you want to accomplish with? 0:42:55.840 --> 0:42:58.040 It is it just carbon capture or is it. 0:42:57.960 --> 0:42:59.319 More it's the whole chain. 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:03.479 I mean, it's act that you know, soil because without saying, 0:43:03.560 --> 0:43:08.120 is a scarce resource that need to be maintained in 0:43:08.160 --> 0:43:10.440 a way to be able, you know, to keep on 0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:15.560 producing in a way that for the next generation you 0:43:15.600 --> 0:43:18.720 don't look back and you leave you know, a brand 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:24.440 soil full of fertilizer or or others that. 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:26.799 Will not be able to. 0:43:28.320 --> 0:43:32.040 Generate the same quality of product you know, for the 0:43:32.040 --> 0:43:34.120 future generation at a time where you'll have to feed 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:37.080 you know, much more in on people. So the technique 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:41.440 here very similar to the to the climate approach you know, 0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.720 we we took you know, five years ago, is really 0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:48.280 about finding entrepreneurs and the companies who have a solution 0:43:48.719 --> 0:43:53.000 for you know, soil, you know, effectively a fertility let's say. 0:43:52.920 --> 0:43:55.440 Or some technique. You know. It's it's not really the. 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:57.799 Agri tech as you may you know, be used to, 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:01.719 but some some techniques have been proven and need this 0:44:01.840 --> 0:44:05.279 capital to scale, and this capital would not be available 0:44:05.520 --> 0:44:08.640 otherwise because it's not about you know, buying land or 0:44:08.680 --> 0:44:11.960 acres of forest. It's not about the agri tech which 0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:17.000 is effectively attracting a lot of a lot of capital. 0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:22.880 But these entrepreneurs, these small cap businesses with the proven 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:26.680 concept and profitability, and they need this capital, you know, 0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:29.360 to scale. So you would be investing in a twenty 0:44:29.400 --> 0:44:32.320 to thirty percent taking twenty thirty percent of the company, 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:36.080 investing this capital to effectively help scale the business to 0:44:36.120 --> 0:44:39.400 a size where then you can get to more you know, 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:43.360 banking financing capital market which you know is not that open. 0:44:43.400 --> 0:44:46.000 So it's this old band. So it's certainly the case 0:44:46.000 --> 0:44:47.799 in Europe. We see it more and more here in 0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:51.839 the US of this small MidCap market that doesn't have 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:53.760 and even more so coming back to your common about 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.680 the regional banks, you've got part of the financial market 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:01.160 structure which is disappearing, and so you need the alternative 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:03.239 source of capital. And so that's where you know, we 0:45:03.280 --> 0:45:05.719 can be a very relevant tool, and that's that for 0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:09.040 the companies and the investors also want to allocate there. 0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:12.359 And you partnered with some really interesting companies on this 0:45:12.600 --> 0:45:17.040 access the big insurer and Unilever, the consumer products company. 0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:21.240 What's their interest in this sort of sustainable investor. 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:24.520 So one comment, you know, as an aside, is, you know, 0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:28.040 artic here we've always partnered with the or we try 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:30.400 as much as we can to partner with the corporates 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:37.080 to bring additional skill set. We did that in energy transition, 0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:41.000 for example, with Total Energies very early on you seventeen eighteen. 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:45.840 We did that in the aerospace cyber with a bunch 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:49.239 of preminent European and global players such as you know 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:54.360 Herbers that so Suffron Taless bringing you know, obviously some capital, 0:45:54.800 --> 0:45:57.160 but more importantly you know, some skill set, some knowledge, 0:45:57.200 --> 0:46:00.600 some rich So that back to my creating compete, we 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:03.560 can tell a different, you know, a different story. 0:46:03.239 --> 0:46:05.319 With with investors. 0:46:04.760 --> 0:46:08.439 And as I and as you just mentioned, the last 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:10.279 one you know with UNI Lever, you know is the 0:46:10.360 --> 0:46:15.360 same is exactly the same approach, which is bringing additional 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:20.399 expertise alongside an asset manager, US financial investors and there's 0:46:20.400 --> 0:46:22.960 no shortage of capital, as we said, you know out 0:46:23.000 --> 0:46:25.280 there in that case, you know, one of the largest 0:46:25.600 --> 0:46:28.840 European insurance company, if not global, and having you know, 0:46:28.880 --> 0:46:33.520 together a different proposal fully aligned with some complimentary with 0:46:33.640 --> 0:46:35.920 some complimentary sourcing. 0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:39.080 To the to the to the deal flow. 0:46:39.840 --> 0:46:42.520 And here again you know, at first people were maybe 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:44.080 looking at us like, you know, why you need to 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:46.920 bring a corporate you know, there's some conflict of interest 0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:49.919 involved here, and then a few years you know, down 0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:52.360 the line, they're like, well, that's a very different proposal 0:46:52.640 --> 0:46:55.000 that we may have heard too, you know from all 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:59.600 the managers, and there are plenty, plenty of out there. 0:47:00.520 --> 0:47:03.680 What's the conflict of interest if you're bringing in a 0:47:03.719 --> 0:47:07.319 consumer product to try and make food on in a 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:09.800 more efficient, productive, sustainable way. 0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:12.880 Maybe that's my point that they should be known, and 0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:16.440 they are known, but you know, there's you know, people 0:47:16.480 --> 0:47:19.759 at times are a little bit reluctant or resistant, you know, 0:47:19.800 --> 0:47:23.000 to change. And so if that's that quo, it's really powerful, 0:47:23.080 --> 0:47:27.120 isn't it. Well I love this quote of yours. I 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:28.200 have to ask you about this. 0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:32.680 The longer the happy hour, the harder the hangover, explain, 0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:34.080 very very French. 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:36.960 Yeah, well that was you know, I think that was 0:47:38.120 --> 0:47:43.239 at Milken's at Milken Institute in May twenty two and 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:45.839 that's when the interest rates you know, starting to raise. 0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:51.080 And I think I was telling you earlier I was 0:47:51.080 --> 0:47:54.880 surprised to see that many people in surprise because effectively 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.720 the bar had been open for quite a long time 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:04.760 with very you know, very cheap liquidity, if I may say, available, and. 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:08.680 Going back to the financial crisis, the entire period that 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:11.240 followed was free those for everyone exactly. 0:48:11.280 --> 0:48:14.560 And that's you know, that's ten years, if not if 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:18.239 not more. And some of us, some of us, I think, 0:48:18.520 --> 0:48:23.040 had effectively lost sight that liquidity should have a price 0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:26.799 and credit, you know, has some value, and so effectively 0:48:27.880 --> 0:48:31.919 this you know, the this comment I made was that, yes, 0:48:32.000 --> 0:48:37.960 people are going to have a hangover of this mispriced, 0:48:38.160 --> 0:48:42.919 over leveled asset they may have both invested into as 0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:45.280 a consequence of this free liquidity. 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:50.640 So let's talk about perhaps a mispriced asset class that 0:48:51.360 --> 0:48:54.560 was relying on free liquidly. As we're recording this, there 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:58.880 is a recent Wall Street Journal headlined company insiders made 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:03.120 millions before the SPAC bust. What are your thoughts on 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:07.600 the SPACs special purpose investment vehicles? How do you look 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:08.000 at those? 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:12.360 So we got into Sparks two years ago, hopefully not 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:16.200 to follow the herd, but because we saw there a 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:23.120 very useful technology that could help some of our private companies. 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:24.920 You know that that which is what we do, you know, 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:29.160 belkof what we do is investing with private entrepreneurs accessing 0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:34.239 the public market with the support of experienced manager, the 0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:38.000 operating partners, you know, with the support of experience you know, 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:43.319 financial players, and effectively, you know, we are very successfully you. 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:45.000 Know, unsparked. 0:49:45.040 --> 0:49:49.200 You know some we had. We took public on NeuroNEXT Amsterdam, 0:49:49.239 --> 0:49:55.080 a great company in the TV content production business three 0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:59.480 billion turnover six hundred million a BDA. It's called you 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:03.879 know fl Entertainment, great entrepreneurs Stefan Koby. It's a real 0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:06.080 company or spack string at I guess you know, ten 0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.840 bucks or around real company. So the issue was not 0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:12.680 the Spak as a technology. The issue was, you know, 0:50:12.760 --> 0:50:15.719 the type of company that we're trying to access this 0:50:15.920 --> 0:50:20.800 market opportunistically and rightly, so in front of some capitol 0:50:20.920 --> 0:50:24.560 that had been given to Spaks promoters and managers. Remember 0:50:24.640 --> 0:50:27.839 that interest rates were negative, so you know, Spaks were 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:32.120 used by some investors as you know, as a vault. 0:50:32.160 --> 0:50:33.280 You know, here's you know, some. 0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:36.000 Cash exactly, I mean, I'll make up you know, for 0:50:36.080 --> 0:50:38.880 the interest you know, shortfall, and I have the option 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:40.520 you know, to to opt out. 0:50:41.120 --> 0:50:45.439 So so it was a guaranteed higher yield I won't 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:49.600 say high yields, but higher yield bonds with an equity 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:52.040 option at the end. If you like the equity company, 0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:52.960 you can. 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:53.359 Stay with it. 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:56.080 Cyber Capitals one, a few others did the same thing. 0:50:56.360 --> 0:50:56.560 You know. 0:50:56.600 --> 0:50:59.040 The technology itself was you know, excess of cash you know, 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:04.080 interest rates or or get negative cash or negative interest 0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:05.800 on my cash account. So here's the cash and I 0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:08.160 may opt out. Well, we tried to do in what 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:11.200 we did and some work. You know, although you know, 0:51:11.239 --> 0:51:13.680 we decided to give back the capitol because back to 0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:17.800 my skin in the game approach, the one we decided 0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:21.759 to return the capitol that was last you know, last month, 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:26.280 we had you know, one hundred and fifty million plus 0:51:26.560 --> 0:51:29.839 of our own capital committed to it. So rather than 0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:33.560 chasing you know, the cheap option with the view of 0:51:34.280 --> 0:51:38.160 hopefully making you know, the the return embeddied with the option. 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:40.719 We're like, first and foremost, we're deplaying our capital. The 0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:43.000 opportunity is not there. You know, We're not going to 0:51:43.120 --> 0:51:44.720 deploy a capital for the sake of it. 0:51:44.760 --> 0:51:46.719 This comes back to skin in the game. When you're 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:50.760 a co investor with your LPs, you don't make dumb 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.239 decisions because hey, we have the cash, we might as 0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:54.160 well spend it. 0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:57.919 I think so, and So that was just I think 0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:02.200 a misuse of a new interesting technique with some investors 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:06.000 and a misuse of interesting techniques for the wrong company. 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:11.600 So I read a piece recently, a research piece that said, uh, 0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:15.439 Brexit may have taken as much as five percent off 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:20.480 the total GDP of the United Kingdom. You worked in London, 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:24.920 you're now in New York originally from from Paris. Does 0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:28.840 that sound realistic? What was the impact of Brexit on 0:52:29.160 --> 0:52:32.680 the UK and and who has stepped into the void 0:52:33.280 --> 0:52:34.719 that brexfast teed up. 0:52:36.840 --> 0:52:38.960 So first of all, that's a decision that was made, 0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:41.520 you know, by the by the British people, and you know, 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.920 I will not comment on the on the rational. Beyond that, 0:52:44.520 --> 0:52:48.640 I read the same studios you know that you mentioned, 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.040 and every day I would talk to some France entrepreneurs 0:52:52.200 --> 0:52:55.720 you in Europe telling me how challenging it has become 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:57.840 and you know, just to move goods and things you know, 0:52:57.880 --> 0:53:00.839 into and just your trading you know with you. The 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:05.600 one part I can comment on was the whole debate 0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:09.640 around the future of the city of London as a 0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:11.880 prominent financial place global. 0:53:11.960 --> 0:53:12.719 But obviously you. 0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:15.719 Know European well, I can tell you Barry is. You know, 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:19.400 since you know the world reopen and you can travel again. 0:53:19.960 --> 0:53:22.680 I'm actually going back more often to London than to 0:53:22.760 --> 0:53:25.319 Paris nowadays, which is my you know, the headquarter of 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:29.759 my firm. Why that because London remains you know, a 0:53:29.880 --> 0:53:34.600 critical business center, you know, for financial services. There are 0:53:34.640 --> 0:53:38.080 some challenging associated with from some regulation, you know, you 0:53:38.080 --> 0:53:39.919 know in the way you have to trade and white 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:43.560 people and banks you know, had to had to open 0:53:44.280 --> 0:53:48.560 or export some branches onto the continent. And I understand 0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:52.560 why and that, you know, technicalities, but when it comes 0:53:52.600 --> 0:54:02.759 to the cosmopolitan nature of London attracting global talents and 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:06.080 as much as I'm French, and Paris has been doing 0:54:06.120 --> 0:54:10.840 a tremendous job attracting talents and firms, but the scale 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:15.400 is such that I wouldn't bet against London as a 0:54:15.440 --> 0:54:21.640 financial center. So we have to cope with technical aspects, 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:24.319 you know, regulation, cost of doing business for some has 0:54:24.320 --> 0:54:30.040 become very punitive if you don't have the scale. And 0:54:30.120 --> 0:54:32.960 that's why, you know, if I'm a bit selfish in 0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:37.520 the approach. We were fully equipped on the continent to 0:54:37.600 --> 0:54:41.200 start with. We're now moving back more aggressively into London 0:54:41.239 --> 0:54:47.319 because we were less over exposed when many people are 0:54:47.360 --> 0:54:49.760 doing the country. You know, people are trying to reduce 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:54.000 their investmental location to the UK, their workforce in the UK. 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:56.160 So we're trying to be a bit contriant and taking 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:56.880 advantage of that. 0:54:57.560 --> 0:55:03.040 So people overreacted in one direction. It's opportunities. Maybe Europe 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:08.359 is dealing with a war on its eastern border. What 0:55:08.480 --> 0:55:13.040 has the Russian invasion of Ukraine done in terms of 0:55:14.080 --> 0:55:19.480 energy supplies and just the entire relationship of Europe with Russia. 0:55:19.880 --> 0:55:23.480 Well, it's it's a complicated one. It's a very sad 0:55:23.600 --> 0:55:27.400 one because I can tell you Barris sitting here in 0:55:27.440 --> 0:55:30.360 the US and and when I talked to france family 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:32.880 over there, the perception of the war is very different 0:55:33.680 --> 0:55:36.799 from one side to the of the pont to the 0:55:37.000 --> 0:55:40.080 to the other because the reality that it's as we 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:42.640 you know, it's two hours away from many of the 0:55:42.680 --> 0:55:46.799 Western European capital and the perception the filling with the 0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:49.040 population you know, is very you know, is very different. 0:55:49.120 --> 0:55:54.239 So having said that, remember a year ago when the 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:59.480 war started, obviously the concern about you know, energy independence, 0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:04.960 sustainability was was front and center. That was a I 0:56:05.000 --> 0:56:08.120 think the silver lining of the situation to put more 0:56:08.640 --> 0:56:12.400 light and focus on accelerating you know, part of the 0:56:12.520 --> 0:56:16.359 transition and in itself, you know, that's that that was 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:19.800 an encouraging step. Looking backwards, you know you're into or 0:56:19.840 --> 0:56:23.200 eighteen months now, you know, into this situation. It's not 0:56:23.320 --> 0:56:26.600 as bad I mean quote unquote on the energy side, 0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:30.759 which is a good news, but the whole situation, you know, 0:56:30.840 --> 0:56:34.520 which I think we are unfortunately stuck stuck with, you know, 0:56:34.640 --> 0:56:39.160 for a relatively long period of time, as creating a 0:56:39.160 --> 0:56:41.240 lot of uncertainty you know in the in the region 0:56:41.800 --> 0:56:45.400 and beyond, but also by the same token, a lot 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:51.760 of political willingness you know, to move to move quicker. 0:56:51.800 --> 0:56:56.400 And the response if you remember that the European government 0:56:56.480 --> 0:56:59.440 made right after the war, I mean they made more 0:56:59.480 --> 0:57:01.759 progress a matter of in a few weeks then we 0:57:01.800 --> 0:57:03.200 had on you know, in a few years. And so 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:08.480 at times it's it's effectively when the essential is at 0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:10.759 stake that people can react constructively. 0:57:10.920 --> 0:57:14.719 So the concern, aside from all the humanitarian tragedy of 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:19.040 the invasion was oil prices with spike, it would eventually 0:57:19.600 --> 0:57:23.240 lead to recession in Europe. But a lot of Europe 0:57:23.240 --> 0:57:26.720 seems to have avoided that. What are your thoughts about 0:57:26.920 --> 0:57:32.040 greater Europe tipping into a recession? And pretty clear parts 0:57:32.040 --> 0:57:36.000 of Europe have slowed down dramatically because of the increased 0:57:36.000 --> 0:57:39.560 costs and dealing with the war. What does the environment 0:57:39.600 --> 0:57:40.360 in Europe look. 0:57:40.280 --> 0:57:40.560 Like to you? 0:57:40.880 --> 0:57:44.480 So not this similar to what we're experiencing here in 0:57:44.480 --> 0:57:47.960 the US and the reshoring you know of production capacity. 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:52.120 We're seeing that in many countries across Europe. Re industrialization 0:57:52.440 --> 0:57:54.640 has been you know, probably the most popular world of 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:58.880 politician you know lately, not only because you need to 0:57:59.040 --> 0:58:02.800 demonstrate less dependency you know, to outside market. 0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:06.080 The whole de globalization you know theme. 0:58:06.600 --> 0:58:10.840 I think it was accelerating by this whole situation, and 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:13.680 so for politicians, you know, it's a way to show, 0:58:13.720 --> 0:58:17.840 you know, a direction for the population. It's a new paradigm, 0:58:17.880 --> 0:58:20.400 a new software and coming back to what we do 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:23.200 for a living, you know, asset manager, it's a great 0:58:23.360 --> 0:58:28.440 frame in you know, finding ways to allocate, reallocate, working 0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:32.440 with global investors to attract more capital in certain you know, 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:37.360 countries or for certain industries. It's not happening overnight, but 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:41.959 you can make it happen fairly quickly. Fairly quickly being 0:58:42.000 --> 0:58:44.080 you know, a matter of months. If you've got all 0:58:44.120 --> 0:58:47.640 these stars aligned from the political direction you know, to 0:58:47.720 --> 0:58:51.960 the to the population adhasion, and then you know. 0:58:52.040 --> 0:58:53.960 The capital allocation. 0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:56.200 And so if you you know, I'm hopeful and I'm 0:58:56.240 --> 0:58:59.160 optimistic that that could be, that could be the civil 0:58:59.200 --> 0:59:03.160 lining of the whole situation as dramatic, you know, the 0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:05.440 situation can be. 0:59:05.880 --> 0:59:11.040 So you have offices in Asia. If we're deglobalizing to 0:59:11.120 --> 0:59:15.160 some degree, and China has been the big industrial driver 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:17.640 of much of the world, what does it mean for 0:59:17.720 --> 0:59:22.160 investing in Asia generally, but more specifically China. 0:59:22.760 --> 0:59:26.160 So what we've been doing in Asia, first out of 0:59:26.200 --> 0:59:31.680 Singapore where we were we started eight nine years ago 0:59:31.720 --> 0:59:34.920 in Singapore, and then Korea and Japan. We don't have 0:59:34.960 --> 0:59:37.919 any presence in China as a matter of fact, and 0:59:38.560 --> 0:59:42.680 the dialogue we had with these investors locally was really 0:59:42.680 --> 0:59:47.560 about attracting them to some of our existing strategies in 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:49.920 Europe or in the US. 0:59:51.000 --> 0:59:51.400 Asia. 0:59:51.800 --> 0:59:54.640 Is I have the chance, you know, to go back there, 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:57.160 you know from time to time, and each time I'm there, 0:59:57.360 --> 1:00:00.200 I found you know, local economies that have and you 1:00:00.240 --> 1:00:03.560 know transform. If you look at Singapore what it was 1:00:03.600 --> 1:00:06.520 when we first moved there and you know eight years later, 1:00:07.040 --> 1:00:09.440 I mean that's that's a global hub. Like a global 1:00:09.480 --> 1:00:11.680 hub with all the consequences you're reading every day, you know, 1:00:11.800 --> 1:00:13.720 the Bloomberg News, you know the price of real estate 1:00:13.760 --> 1:00:17.000 and the numbers of family offices who moved from Hong 1:00:17.080 --> 1:00:19.200 Kong from part of the Middle East. You know, to 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:21.520 open there for the very same reason that you have created, 1:00:21.560 --> 1:00:27.200 you know, a great talent hub, a very business friendly environment. 1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:28.600 You know, you've got the. 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:32.200 Most sophisticated sovereign wealth funds in the world. We were 1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:35.800 lucky enough, you know, to have Temasek backing us as 1:00:35.840 --> 1:00:38.240 wely you know as twenty sixteen. I've been a great 1:00:38.280 --> 1:00:41.880 partner ever since. Great place, you know, great marketplace. And 1:00:41.920 --> 1:00:44.520 so the way we look at our single properations today. 1:00:44.920 --> 1:00:47.400 You know, we have a headquarter Paris, and we have 1:00:47.520 --> 1:00:51.240 three global hubs New York, London, Singapore and all of 1:00:51.280 --> 1:00:53.680 these hubs, you know, then you can reach on a 1:00:53.720 --> 1:00:58.400 global basis, first investors and effective you're tracking them where 1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:01.760 we think there is an interesting investment posle and also 1:01:01.840 --> 1:01:05.000 creating investment, you know, opportunities when you've got this supply 1:01:05.160 --> 1:01:08.280 demand imbalance. Again, it all comes down to supply demand 1:01:08.320 --> 1:01:11.120 and how we can best take advantage of that. 1:01:11.720 --> 1:01:14.960 Really interesting, So let's jump to our favorite questions that 1:01:15.040 --> 1:01:18.680 we ask all of our guests, starting with what have 1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:22.640 you been streaming these days? What's been keeping you informed 1:01:23.040 --> 1:01:26.840 and entertained? Either podcast or Netflix or whatever. 1:01:27.720 --> 1:01:30.200 One I like and I recommend, but because that's being 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:33.760 produced by this company we backed that we took, we 1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:37.240 helped take you know, public a few months ago. Is 1:01:37.280 --> 1:01:41.400 the Peaky Blinders. That's great entertainment, and only because I love, 1:01:41.440 --> 1:01:44.040 you know, this whole story about you know, the villain 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.800 and the gangsters and all that, but more eputently because 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:47.320 that's great. 1:01:47.920 --> 1:01:49.280 Is that Netflix or Amazona? 1:01:49.400 --> 1:01:51.920 It's a Netflix one. It's a Netflix one I strongly 1:01:51.960 --> 1:01:55.080 recommend and produced by our friend at fl Entertainment. 1:01:55.560 --> 1:01:59.360 Really interesting. So who were your mentors who helped to 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:00.480 shape your career? 1:02:01.640 --> 1:02:08.280 So few of them are senior people I worked for 1:02:08.320 --> 1:02:11.120 when I was a young analyst, you know, an associate, 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:14.120 because every one of them, in their own, you know, 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:19.640 different approach, helped me challenge the fact that we are 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:21.920 going on our own at a relatively young age, you know, 1:02:21.960 --> 1:02:25.440 for this business. Some of them telling us, well, it's 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:28.320 either too late or too early for good or bad reasons. 1:02:28.800 --> 1:02:32.400 And on the contrary, people saying, which was less the 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:34.240 case is in Europe than it can be the case 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.400 here in the US. There's never a good time, and 1:02:36.440 --> 1:02:39.240 you should give it a go, you know. And so 1:02:40.480 --> 1:02:44.400 many of them were finance professional most of the time 1:02:44.440 --> 1:02:49.160 in investment banking and still remained and I've still remain, 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:51.160 you know, friends. Some of them join us by the 1:02:51.200 --> 1:02:55.240 way along the way, you know, at at TKO. And 1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:58.480 there's that's one thing that she was very valuable. When 1:02:58.480 --> 1:02:59.880 you start your own venture. 1:03:00.200 --> 1:03:02.000 What are some of your favorite books? What are you 1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:02.960 reading right now? 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:08.520 So two books I've started very different. The first one 1:03:09.560 --> 1:03:12.480 I was lucky to turn one of the again Mike 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:16.560 Milkan's you know Evan you know recently both in La 1:03:16.640 --> 1:03:19.200 and then Leon and as you know, is extremely focused 1:03:19.200 --> 1:03:25.080 on healthcare and the whole focus is putting through his 1:03:25.200 --> 1:03:31.680 institute and the all the philanthropy around there. And the book, 1:03:32.000 --> 1:03:35.720 you know, the book is called Faster Cures Accelerating the 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:39.640 Future of Health, you know, by Mike Milkan, is something 1:03:39.680 --> 1:03:43.480 which is fascinating because you know, in a job day 1:03:43.520 --> 1:03:45.680 to day you know, it's really you know, short term, 1:03:45.760 --> 1:03:47.360 and when you step back a bit and you look 1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:50.200 a little bit of these demographic issues. You know, we 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:52.320 touch based on some of those issues, you know, energy 1:03:52.320 --> 1:03:55.840 and all that, but the demographic is probably the most 1:03:56.280 --> 1:04:00.520 challenging one. And even if it's fifty seventy five from now, 1:04:00.800 --> 1:04:04.000 I think we should start factoring in you know, many 1:04:04.000 --> 1:04:08.160 of that, you know, in Today's Decision and the other book, 1:04:08.200 --> 1:04:11.720 you know, more recent I was lucky to meet a 1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:18.320 French professor in Boston who's teacher both at HBS and HKS. 1:04:18.680 --> 1:04:21.000 She's been there for twenty years, you know. 1:04:21.040 --> 1:04:24.960 Her name is Julie Batilana. And the last book is 1:04:24.960 --> 1:04:29.000 called Power for All, and it's all about you know, 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:32.800 the relationship to I would say even power, but if 1:04:32.800 --> 1:04:36.120 effectively power is about having an influence on making someone 1:04:36.160 --> 1:04:39.520 else change behavior. How it's not only top down and 1:04:39.560 --> 1:04:41.440 the way we may have learned it, and how we 1:04:41.480 --> 1:04:47.960 should with the new generation in a new cycle, and 1:04:48.120 --> 1:04:51.320 the perspective of things that are you know critical to me, 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:55.480 which are you democracy but also capitalism which is fueling 1:04:55.480 --> 1:04:57.560 many of that. How do you reconcile you know all that, 1:04:57.640 --> 1:04:59.960 And it's worthwhile reading sounds entry. 1:05:00.760 --> 1:05:04.200 Our last two questions, what sort of advice would you 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:07.640 give to a recent college graduate who is interested in 1:05:07.680 --> 1:05:11.080 a career in either private equity or investing. 1:05:11.920 --> 1:05:15.160 Well, I would Sandymno. Some of the motos were using 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:20.320 every day at TKO Capital. Be curious, think out of 1:05:20.360 --> 1:05:24.800 the box, be on the ball, think big. You know, 1:05:24.840 --> 1:05:29.520 I will share that with them because that's one thing 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:33.720 that doesn't change. Technology may change, but you know, interpersonal 1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:39.040 skill set and being being hungry, I think that's what matters. 1:05:39.520 --> 1:05:42.640 Interesting And our final question, what do you know about 1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:45.920 the world of investing today you wish you knew twenty 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:48.480 five or so years ago when you were first getting started. 1:05:49.240 --> 1:05:51.080 Never take anything for granted. 1:05:52.000 --> 1:05:55.080 Thank you so much for being so generous with your time, Matthew. 1:05:55.160 --> 1:05:58.880 We have been speaking with Matthew Chebron, co founder of 1:05:58.960 --> 1:06:02.600 TKO Capital. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure 1:06:02.640 --> 1:06:05.120 and check out any of the other five hundred or 1:06:05.160 --> 1:06:09.200 so discussions we've had over the past eight or so years. 1:06:09.360 --> 1:06:13.640 You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you 1:06:13.720 --> 1:06:17.360 find your favorite podcast. Sign up for my daily reading 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.560 list at Rittholts dot com. Follow me on Twitter, at 1:06:20.640 --> 1:06:24.400 rit Holts follow all of the Bloomberg Family of podcasts 1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:28.520 on Twitter at podcast I would be remiss if I 1:06:28.520 --> 1:06:30.960 did not thank the crack team that helps put the 1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:35.680 conversations together each week. My audio engineer is Sebastian Escobar. 1:06:36.200 --> 1:06:39.280 My producer is Paris walt A. Teak of val Bron 1:06:39.400 --> 1:06:42.360 is our project manager. Sean Russeau is my head of research. 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:46.520 I'm Barry Ridholts. You've been listening to Masters in Business 1:06:47.160 --> 1:06:48.320 on Bloomberg Radio.