1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: This is Master's in Business with Barry Ridholds on Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 2: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special guest. 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: Matthew Chebron is the co founder of TKO Capital, a 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: Paris based alternative asset manager. They run over forty billion 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: dollars worth of assets. I found this to be really 6 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: a fascinating conversation about approaching the world of investing from 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 2: a different angle, being creative, thinking out of the box, 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 2: looking to not just imitate what other people do, but 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: create new opportunities by just thinking about the world differently. 10 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 2: The conversation was really informative and quite fascinating. I thought 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: it was great and I think you will also with 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: no further ado my conversation with TKO Capitals. 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: Matthew Chebron, Thank you, Baron. 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: I forgot to mention you have received the Chevalier de 15 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: l'Ordre de la legend Anna by the President of the 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: French Republic in January twenty twenty two. We'll circle back 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: to that at some other point. I don't know how 18 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: relevant that is to asset management, but let's talk a 19 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 2: little bit about what you were doing before you were 20 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 2: being lauded by the French president. You went to school 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: in Paris, but you began your career in London at 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: Maryland Deutsche Bank. Tell us a little bit about that background. 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's right, Barry. You know, it's that's one 24 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: thing you know. 25 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: In Europe where. 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 4: London was and actually think still remain, you know, the 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 4: one place where you know you want to get exposure 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 4: when you join financial services. So I was lucky to 29 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 4: get this summer internship at Marylynch back in the late nineties. 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: I met Antoine effectively my co founding partner, So that 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 4: was you know, a while back, but nonetheless, you know, 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 4: if it was love at first sight, but we got 33 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 4: to get along, you know, pretty well, and after a 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 4: few years working for investment banks, he then joined Goldman Sacks. 35 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 4: I joined effectively Dutch Bank. We decided, you know, to 36 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 4: try to have a go on our own. We were 37 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 4: twenty eight thirty respectively, and looking backwards as much as 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 4: investment banking, even with banks that no longer there was great. 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 4: You know, that was a great training. I think it 40 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 4: was a great training. I think you know, we learned 41 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 4: a lot. The exposure you know, you get in investment banking. 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 4: I was a leverage finance banker by background, and so 43 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 4: late nineties that the emergence of the high yield market 44 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 4: in Europe. You would print deals, you know, like never before. 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: You get this exposure. You're a young analyst associate. You 46 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 4: get to go on the road show with management teams. 47 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 4: You know, I look backwards, that was a hell of 48 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 4: for training. You know, in terms of the exposure. 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 2: I can imagine was the plan when you were going 50 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: to school in Paris ways to go into finance or 51 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 2: were you originally leaning another direction? 52 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 4: In a prior to joining a business school in Paris, 53 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: I studied political sciences in my native Provence, you know, 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 4: in excellent province, and there was no hint at the time, 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 4: you know that I would be heading into into finance. 56 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: And so when I then got the exposure and getting 57 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 4: to learn with the great teachers, by the way, what 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 4: and again went back in you know, in the late nineties. 59 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 4: But then you start reading books and I'm not talking 60 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 4: about the theoretical books, but you know some experience, you know, 61 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 4: the people I remember these books, you know, reading the 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 4: you know Lias Poker from Michael Lewis, you know, reading 63 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 4: a Predator's Ball, you know about the milk and junk 64 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 4: bond and that's where you know, the excitement started and 65 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 4: you're like, you know, I have to get exposure to that. 66 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 4: So no, there was nothing written, but it was a 67 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 4: great step. 68 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: So fast forward to today. You now work in a 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: large European firm in the USA, but really you began 70 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: your career at big American firms in London. 71 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: That's right. 72 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: What are the cultural differences, like a US firm in 73 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: Europe versus European firm in the US. 74 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's an interesting, interesting question looking from the US. 75 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 4: But you know, at times, you know, Europe you know, 76 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: may may be an easy concept, but it's a very 77 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: complex reality. And so doing business in Europe is obviously 78 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 4: you know, it's all about being local because Italy is 79 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: not Spain, France is not you know, Germany. You know, 80 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,479 Speaker 4: at times people in London think that they cover in 81 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 4: the whole European playfield. But again it's a complex reality. 82 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 4: So having met people back then, you know, Americans working 83 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 4: for these US banks, you know, now they understand that 84 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 4: and the one successful and even some of for you 85 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 4: know peers competitors friends American franchise who are competing and 86 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: tackling the European market. Very often the one successful and 87 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 4: very SUCCESSFU are the one who've been, you know, spending 88 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 4: a lot of time you know, on the ground, and 89 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,359 Speaker 4: then on the contrary, hopefully having worked for US franchise, 90 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 4: having spent time with the people and great mentors. You know, 91 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 4: for me, I now can hopefully understand better, you know, 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 4: the cultural difference, you know, as we expand here and 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: as I'm sure you know you would appreciate, you know, 94 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 4: being here in New York is a very different reality 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 4: than the rest of the the Americas, partly when it 96 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 4: comes down to visiting new clients. You know, in the Midwest, 97 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 4: you know there are you know, the part you know 98 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 4: of the of the US. So hopefully there's a bit 99 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 4: of convergence here, you know, to make it worthwhile. 100 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 2: I love the old spoiling great quote. I don't live 101 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: in America. I live in a small island off the 102 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: east coast of America. Because to your point, New York 103 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: is in Kansas City, and Kansas City is in Miami. 104 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: But New York is definitely its own creature. 105 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 4: It is for sure, and you know, for us at TIKO, 106 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 4: it's been an important step to to open and expand 107 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 4: here in North America. 108 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: You know, just background. 109 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 4: When I moved here five years ago this year in 110 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, you know, we had barely know relationships in 111 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 4: North America. We had made a few investments relationship from 112 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 4: a client standpoint, I mean fromn lpea standpoint. 113 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: And fast forward. 114 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 4: You know today is close to ten percent of houra 115 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 4: a um that we have raised here. You know, we 116 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 4: launch new initiatives, We try not to be differentiating, and 117 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 4: obviously it's a long term game and you have to 118 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: be definitely long term greedy when you set up a business, 119 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 4: you know, in the in the US, but in the 120 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 4: business we're in today, in the alternative asset management space 121 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 4: as competitive it can be. 122 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: But you know, the. 123 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 4: Structural opportunity now is such that the commitment as a 124 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 4: eure open that you have to make here has to 125 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: be long term. I made the commitment, you know, personally, 126 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: and I can see the path, you know, because there 127 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 4: is room to expand the business. 128 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what led to the decision to 129 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 2: launch TKO Capital back in two thousand and four. Your 130 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: Deutsche Bank, your colleague ant One is a Goldman Sachs. 131 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: What made you say, hey, let's get the band back 132 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:03,119 Speaker 2: together again. 133 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 4: Well, you know what, it's actually back to what I was, 134 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 4: you know, just saying, we were watching all these franchise 135 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 4: being launched, and obviously at the top of them, you know, 136 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: all the one you can think of, who are you know, 137 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 4: leading the industry today, But back then they were you know, 138 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 4: managing you a few tens of billions of dollars, which 139 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 4: was you know, enormous back then, based only a fraction 140 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 4: of what they are today. And we were seeing all 141 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 4: these American franchise, you know, launching in in Europe, you know, 142 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 4: out of London, and we're like, you know, why don't 143 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 4: we give you a go? 144 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 3: I mean, we. 145 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 4: Learned leverage finance, we learned you know, real estate that 146 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 4: we knew, how yield we knew, you know, opportunittic investment, 147 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 4: and we're like, it's never too late, it's never too early, 148 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 4: and we decided to go with you know, a huge 149 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 4: four million aum that we had gathered from friends and family. 150 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 4: So you can appreciate, you know, the challenge back then, 151 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 4: but you have to start somewhere. 152 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: Right that that's walking around cash back back then. So 153 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: let's talk about not too late, not too early. You 154 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: launch right after the dot com enplosure, correct, but a 155 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,239 Speaker 2: few years before the Great Financial Crisis? 156 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 3: Right? 157 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: What was that period like? What was that lull like 158 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: between those two giant volatility events. 159 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 4: It was an experience because you know, the dot com bubble. 160 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 4: I remember being a young associate at Merrill Lynch and 161 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 4: all the investment bank they had to reinvent themselves, you know, 162 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 4: to make sure they could remember this retain talent, you 163 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: know that we've been hearing, you know lately again, you know, 164 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 4: And so they were creating some cool working space and 165 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 4: you would no longer you know, wear a tie and 166 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 4: all that, which was all form of a substance. And 167 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 4: as if there was a shift. And then you have 168 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 4: this ramp up from effective VO four when we launched 169 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 4: to the GFC and we're three years, four years into business, 170 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 4: you know at TKO, and I remember, you know, we 171 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 4: feel extremely proud because then we were banking, you know, 172 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: with Beochtern. So we're banking with Lehman Brothers. And that 173 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 4: was you know a step in the entrepreneurial development. And 174 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, over the weekend, those banks 175 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: are gone, and so you're like a young entrepreneur leaving 176 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 4: this nearness experience despite thinking that you were close to 177 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 4: certainty because you were working with the best institution and 178 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 4: counter party you can think of. And then all of 179 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 4: a sudden, it's all about how you see and look 180 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 4: at the world. Never take anything for granted, always be, 181 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 4: you know, in the world of challenging everything. So it's 182 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 4: not good for your stomach pain, you know, every morning, 183 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 4: but only the paranoid survive. And I think that was 184 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 4: a great learning experience. 185 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what took place post bear Stearns 186 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: and post Liman From a business perspective, bear Stearns gets 187 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: absorbed into JP Morgan Chase, so your contacts at bear 188 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 2: Stearns are still in business. The best parts of Liman 189 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: brother get absorbed into Barclay. So I got to imagine 190 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: a lot of the folks you were doing business with 191 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: at those places landed on their feet and you still 192 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: had some relationship or am I being too sanguine about no? 193 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 4: No, there was a bit of all of the above. 194 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 4: But more importantly for us, you know in Aura, you 195 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: know development, As I said, it was about you know, 196 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 4: never taking anything for granting and granted because you know, 197 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 4: Lehman Brothers. Is what a single a rated bank on 198 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 4: the Friday night and it's defaulted, you know, on. 199 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 3: The Monday morning. 200 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: And even if I'm sketching a bit, you know, from 201 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 4: there on at the time where eight hundred million a UM, 202 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 4: I guess we have a team of twenty twenty five people, 203 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 4: most of them still being with us today, by the way. 204 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 4: And it's great when you've been to work together, if 205 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 4: you allow me, because then you know, you just have 206 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 4: to look at someone in the eyes and you know 207 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 4: exactly how they're going to be eight because we've been 208 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 4: through that, you know, together. And so for us, you know, 209 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 4: beyond the people and beyond the institution, it was the 210 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 4: beginning of a second phase of the journey. I like 211 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 4: to say, maybe not less naive about you know, how 212 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 4: easy all these things are, because they're not easy. Steve 213 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 4: Schwartzman wrote his book called What it Takes, you know, 214 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 4: And so for us, that was every single being equal, 215 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 4: the beginning of the second phase of the journey, where 216 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 4: it was no longer the teasing part. You were effectively 217 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 4: like into the real stuff. Now on the positive and 218 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 4: the civil lining was that this whole situation started you know, 219 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,599 Speaker 4: putting a lot of light on let's say, the alternative 220 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 4: market private debt. Private credit was unheard of in Europe 221 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 4: until the banks effectively went into this massive liquidity squeeze 222 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 4: and all those asset managers had to you know, step 223 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 4: in and feel this void. 224 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: Great opportunity for US. 225 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 4: Private equity at the time was only about buyout an 226 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 4: LBO only if you had heard about, you know, the 227 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 4: growth equity part where you need to strengthen an entrepreneurial 228 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 4: companies in a balance sheet, because it's not you know, 229 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 4: she's not trying to sell the business. It's just about 230 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 4: you know, making sure you find the right partners, you know, 231 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 4: to strengthen the balance sheet, and so so and so. 232 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 4: You know, we started a new period. Adding on top 233 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 4: of that, you know this very accommuniting military policy. Well 234 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 4: that was the beginning of a new chapter for private 235 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 4: markets and we were lucky, you know, to effectively embark 236 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 4: on this journey at this time. 237 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: So let me. 238 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: Follow up on the financial crisis the period afterwards. Clearly 239 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: it was highly disruptive, lots of damage done, lots of 240 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: people lost their jobs, lots of businesses went out. But 241 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: it sounds like a lot of opportunities were created in 242 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: what came after. 243 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 4: It was certainly the case for us again, you know, 244 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 4: many challenges, but with the hard work and with people 245 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 4: who could see, you know, the opportunity, and publicly with 246 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 4: the European approach, thinking that, yes, you can develop a 247 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 4: very multi local footprint organization in Europe, be an alternative 248 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 4: to global investment tours to clients, to the to the 249 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 4: one established you know mainly you know, mainly Americans. You know, 250 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 4: I must admit that was very exciting, you know, it 251 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 4: was very exciting to get into that and to a 252 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 4: certain extent, you know, we had been looking forward for 253 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 4: the day where we could face another of those crises, 254 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 4: and we all know they're all different, but better prepared, 255 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 4: better prepared, you know, with more resources, with the more 256 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 4: powerful platform, with a bigger footprint and living you know, 257 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 4: COVID aside living you know, I don't know Brexit aside 258 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 4: leaving all these little steps. Over the past ten years, 259 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: twelve years, we've been you know, getting better prepared, you know, 260 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 4: for when the cycle changed and we may have entered 261 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 4: you know, this new this new chapter of this new 262 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 4: cycle raising interest rates started you know a year ago 263 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 4: where of the view that it's no, it's not getting 264 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 4: lower anytime soon, and so we go back to the 265 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 4: basics of what our job should be risk on the 266 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 4: writing risk assessment. Asset prices are different from asset valuation. 267 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,599 Speaker 4: I mean the valuation in the future cash flow discounted 268 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 4: at the risk cre rate perscualisk premium. Well, guess what 269 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 4: the risk cree rate now is five percent is no 270 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 4: longer zero, and the risk premium is closer to five 271 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 4: percent than. 272 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: It is from two. 273 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 4: And so all of a sudden, the whole merits of 274 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 4: our job gets back into the center of the pitch, 275 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 4: and that makes our drop much more exciting. You know, 276 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: we've never been more excited that we've been for the 277 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 4: past twelve months to invest today. 278 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what brought TKO to the US. Clearly, 279 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 2: you guys were very successful in Europe. You now have 280 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: thirteen offices around the world. Is it just the size 281 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 2: of the US market? 282 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: What was the attraction here? 283 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 4: Well, I mean size is definitely you know a reason, 284 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 4: But I would add we had just gone public at 285 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 4: the time, you know, twenty seventeen, and for us, the 286 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 4: leasting maybe way before it became more preyed you know, 287 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 4: in the recent years was the main objective of the 288 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 4: listing barrier was really to promote the brand, the franchise. 289 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 4: We never saw the single share on the occasion of this. 290 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: You guys only allowed a small piece to go. 291 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,359 Speaker 4: Public, right, that's right, and all our historical backers, shareholders, 292 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 4: they actually you know, kept on supporting the business. 293 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: You know. 294 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 4: We tapped these here market twice and they all you know, 295 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 4: reinforced their ownership. So unlike many IPOs which are away, 296 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 4: you know, to monetize the business, for us, it was 297 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 4: about really about rationalizing the platform. We had just come 298 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 4: out of thirteen fourteen years of very entrepreneurial development during 299 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 4: a period as you mentioned, which was pretty bumpy, and 300 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 4: so it was a great way to rationalize the platform. 301 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 4: Come with one brand, one name, getting the name out there. 302 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 4: So that was in twenty seventeen when public on Neuron 303 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 4: next Paris and coming to the US. Was there was 304 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 4: no other alternity than coming to the US, you know, 305 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 4: at some point, and we thought the timing was right 306 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 4: both because we had now we are then you know, 307 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 4: twenty billion aum. We've been in in Asia for a 308 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: few years and it had been extremely promising and so 309 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 4: I decided, you know, to come here, you know, to 310 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 4: promote this brand, to convert into a commercial relationship, raising 311 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 4: more capital towards US investors, which to your point is 312 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 4: one of the deepest market in the world. And then 313 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 4: also you know, start deploying capital here in the US. 314 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 4: Not that there is a shortage of capital you know, 315 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: by no means, but as we like to say, you know, 316 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 4: create not compete. And so we started initially like secondary 317 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: private credit, you know, private debt was a mainstream developed 318 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 4: strategy here I mean globally and here in the US. 319 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 4: I think we're one of the first one to move 320 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 4: into secondary private credit. You know, fast forward a couple 321 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 4: of fields. Three years now we can demonstrate the merits 322 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 4: of the strategy, the track record of the strategy. We 323 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: started expanding into a mid market infrastructure. That was right 324 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 4: before the you know, the Biden election and all the 325 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 4: focusing on infrastructure, when we were not active in infrastructure 326 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 4: in Europe. So we try to find some play that 327 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 4: could differentiate ourselves. Not only is a v you know, 328 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: European and Asian investors, but also here in the US 329 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 4: to be able to tell a different story to LPs. 330 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 4: With one key differentiating factor is the skin in the 331 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: game that we have, you know, as a structure and 332 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 4: as founders into the organization. 333 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 2: So a lot of companies that go public then have 334 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: a valuable currency they can use for acquisitions. How did 335 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 2: that plag into the thinking. 336 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, and we you know, we use that 337 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 4: a couple of times very selectively since going up public 338 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 4: Infras you know, was one of them. 339 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: Another one in a. 340 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 4: Real estate you know, in Europe, and I mean they 341 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 4: were very selective bolt on acquisition, you know, an acquisition 342 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 4: in our businesses is always a big bet, right It's 343 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 4: we're in the people business, and you need the chemistry, 344 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 4: I mean, you need the culture you know, to work out. 345 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 4: But you know, looking forward, it's certainly we're in a 346 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 4: better position today to come to your acquisition than we 347 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 4: were in a few years ago. So as the market 348 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 4: and the industry restructure, you know, we will certainly be 349 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: very very opportunistic. 350 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting the thought of Bolton as opposed 351 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: to within the same space, there's a long history of 352 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 2: financial acquisitions that didn't really work out all that well 353 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: because of the chemistry as most of the cultural issues. 354 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 2: But something you said earlier really stood out to me. 355 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: You want to create, not compete. So let's talk a 356 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: little bit about how you guys at TKO think differently. 357 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: Tell us or a Steve Jobs term think different tell 358 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 2: us how you approach the world differently than a lot 359 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: of your competitors. 360 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: You know, when we studied, as they told you, extremely 361 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 4: extremely modest, there were plenty of franchise out there. And 362 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 4: you know, even if you talk to private investors, high 363 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 4: networth family offices can be a bit more nimble in 364 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 4: the way. You know, they approach their asset a location. 365 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 4: They need to see a reason why they would go, 366 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 4: you know, with what was back then a tk who 367 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 4: more than a TKO, you know, and find you know, 368 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 4: and and find a reason why you know, they would 369 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 4: allocate there back then. You know, in Europe back in 370 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 4: the day when we start doing you know, private credit 371 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,879 Speaker 4: direct lending today is very much mainstream. I can tell 372 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 4: you that that that back then it was not you know, 373 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 4: at the time, they even called it shadow banking. You know, 374 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 4: in Europe it's been quite a wild since you know, 375 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 4: I last read about shadow banking be so it's become 376 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 4: so mainstream and structural. You know today that it's really 377 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 4: part of the year. So we've always tried to effectively 378 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 4: be a little bit I don't know how it comes across, 379 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 4: and it's not the underdog, but you know, coming with 380 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 4: something that is different so that you can slay. Yeah, 381 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 4: so that you can make you know, a name for yourself, 382 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 4: and then you know, use these adjacencies at the business 383 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 4: then to scale and make them very mainstream. I was 384 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 4: saying the secondary private credit that we launched a couple 385 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 4: of years ago. Now here in New York, it's becoming 386 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 4: a bit more mainstream. Every day I would see one 387 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 4: of the large Belch bracket banks, you know, launching or 388 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 4: speaking about the INSUAD. But like, well, maybe that was 389 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 4: a good idea we had, and competition is good, by 390 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 4: the way, you know, nothing wrong about competition, but at 391 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 4: least you've established, you know, a name for yourself and 392 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 4: obviously got the track record and you can, you know, 393 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: you can showcase that. So that's step one. The second thing, 394 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 4: bar if I may, is you know, in our industry, 395 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 4: what should make the biggest difference is the skin in 396 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: the game that the managers you know, put into their business. 397 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 4: I like to say that in our industry, you come 398 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 4: across a lot of people who are willing to make 399 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: money with someone else money. You came across less people 400 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 4: willing to make some money with the kids money. Any entrepreneur, 401 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 4: you know is you know, is taking risks by you know, 402 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 4: borrowing some capital and investing into his. 403 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 3: Business, whatever the business is. 404 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 4: And in our industry at times, I think that there's 405 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: been a little bit of. 406 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 3: Irony, not to. 407 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 4: Say hypocrisy in the way that we showcase the skin 408 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 4: in the game. I don't think carried interest is a 409 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 4: great alignment of interest. The only alignment of interest in 410 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 4: the amount of capital that any given manager firm is 411 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 4: putting into its fund. You when you read that, okay, well, 412 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 4: you know we put you know, one percent of the fund, 413 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 4: you know, as commitment from the GP. The fund is 414 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 4: a billion, you know, we put ten million. It's a 415 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 4: lot of money, yes, but you're charging two percent for 416 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 4: the next ten years, so the option cost is not 417 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 4: that high. 418 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: When you're putting. 419 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 4: Ten percent twenty percent of your balance sheet capital side 420 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: by side with your LP. You can do a basic 421 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: Excel spreadsheet and you'll see, you know, what is at 422 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 4: stake and that effectively, yes, you're going to make some 423 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 4: money on the management fees on the performance field of 424 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 4: the carried interest, but you know what you have at 425 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 4: stake side by side with your client is a totally 426 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 4: different magnitude. And I think this is where the industry 427 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 4: should be heading. And many or for you know, peers, competitors, 428 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 4: they all have different models, but the one with significant 429 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 4: skin in the game from the GP, from the partners, 430 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 4: from the balance sheet and going public by the way, 431 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 4: bar it was a great way for us to strengthen 432 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 4: this equity base, which is you know, partner zone and 433 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 4: control and management own to effectively create what has been 434 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: so far, certainly in Europe, a second to none skin 435 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 4: in the game model. 436 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: I like the way that sounds. Let's talk a little 437 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 2: bit about Europe. If we look at the past few decades, 438 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: Europe out performed the US and the two thousands. While 439 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 2: we were going through dot com and financial crisis in 440 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 2: the twenty tens, the US markets were just on fire 441 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: and really did very well. Twenty twenties things started out 442 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: a little shaky. 443 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: How do you. 444 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: Compare the investment environment in Europe over the past few 445 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: decades versus the US. 446 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 4: Well, both of them were obviously driven by interest rates, 447 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 4: and they moved you know, the same direction, but in 448 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 4: different patterns. And when we first got into negative interest 449 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 4: rates in Europe a few years ago on the back 450 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 4: of the euro crisis, you know, and post the GFC 451 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 4: first with the sovereigns, but then you know, with the 452 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 4: IG market, with the investment grade market, you had corporates 453 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 4: basically borrowing you know, one hundred and being asked, you know, 454 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 4: to give back ninety eight. And today, you know, when 455 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 4: you look backwards and with no back trading, you're like, 456 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 4: you know, okay, what you know, what were we thinking about, 457 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 4: you know, back then, because for what we do, and 458 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, the business Barry like risk underwriting 459 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 4: is about effectively scaling the risk, you know, the return, 460 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 4: and we were in a very awkward environment. And so 461 00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 4: that's why I was surprised to see so many people surprised. 462 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 4: You know, a year ago May twenty two, you know, 463 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 4: interest rates started rising and all of a sudden, the 464 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 4: whole software were bugged. I mean, what we do is 465 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 4: not rocket science, and it all come down to the 466 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 4: value of liquidity and the cost of credit. And then 467 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 4: we can start, you know, doing what we are supposed 468 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 4: to be doing. You know risk and the writing, and 469 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 4: so Europe US went into different patterns on the way 470 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 4: down and very different on the way up. I mean 471 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 4: here in the US, obviously you were much more reactive, 472 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 4: you know, in raising rates. Rightly, so in my view, 473 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 4: maybe Europe is lagging a bit that time around. You know, 474 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 4: they were actually faster at reducing interest rates even so 475 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 4: into negative territory. But there is a little bit of 476 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 4: the coupling you know, going on right now, and for 477 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 4: us it's a great way partly, you know, a tico 478 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 4: where we are, you know, we are very exposed to 479 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 4: the yield play credit in FRA real estate, be spoke 480 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 4: credit and so all that's are the starting point of 481 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 4: this risk underwriting. 482 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about the difference between 483 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 2: the twenty tens and the twenty twenties. Starting with Hey, 484 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: it's pretty arguable that by the time the FED began 485 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 2: raising rates here in the United States, they were already 486 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 2: behind the curve. Their two percent target had been hit 487 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: a year earlier, and CPI kept going higher. So if 488 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 2: the FED was behind the curve, how much further behind 489 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 2: the curve of the central banks in Europe in terms 490 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: of dealing with their inflation issues. 491 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 4: The you know, central banks in the US and in 492 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 4: Europe they may have a different mandate, you know, one 493 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 4: might be more political, you know than the others. And 494 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 4: at times, you know, when you have to effectively finance 495 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 4: you know, all the deficiats, you know, you have to 496 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 4: be mindful that you need to be able, you know, 497 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 4: to issue, you know, to issue and you pay down 498 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 4: this debt. I think that you know, right now, and 499 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 4: without getting into too many political details, I mean, Europe 500 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 4: is probably is not in a good place relative to 501 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 4: where they were in reacting to COVID for example, or 502 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 4: reacting to the euro crisis you know, ten years ago. 503 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 4: I mean, the political situation in Europe has created indirectly 504 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,120 Speaker 4: some effect maybe on the on the ECB and as 505 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 4: much you know, I mean, Christian Legards has been doing 506 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 4: a terrific job after a Mario drug you know there. 507 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 3: But the institution you know. 508 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 4: Maybe should be a bit a boulder, you know, in 509 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 4: the way you're tackling this, this inflation issue, because we 510 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 4: all know that period of very low interest rates create 511 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 4: massive inequality, inequality you know, between people having access to 512 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 4: credit and the people who don't have access to credit, 513 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 4: and as in people, it's individual, it's corporate, its states, 514 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 4: and so ironically, you know, you save a system, but 515 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 4: you make it to be more inequal in the way 516 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 4: people came out of this period. 517 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: So that's really interesting. During the post financial crisis era 518 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: of very low rates, anything priced in credit, real estate equities, 519 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: bonds did really well. Certainly that helps the top ten 520 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 2: percent in the United States. During COVID, rather than just 521 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: a monetary response, we saw a massive fiscal response which 522 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 2: seemed to have really helped across the entire economic strata, 523 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 2: especially the middle class. So what do our experiences post 524 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 2: financial crisis, post COVID tell us about the need for 525 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 2: balance between monetary and fiscal stimulus. 526 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're absolutely right. But by the same token, we 527 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 4: know that right now. I'm not an economist, but you know, 528 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 4: in the US, in Europe, you know, the inflation, the 529 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 4: structural inflation, people might have a different view about that 530 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 4: is certainly hurting, you know, the one with the less 531 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 4: you know resources, you know obviously food, energy, housing, and 532 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 4: not even talking about you know, school, healthcare. And obviously 533 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 4: in Europe we have a totally different different you know, 534 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 4: environment and about this this matter. So's it's a tricky situation. 535 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: And where I think, as SAT managers have a role 536 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 4: to play is in making sure that whenever someone is 537 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 4: saving a dollar or investing a billion dollar, you know, 538 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 4: be a private investor or large insitual investors, is that 539 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 4: there is the appropriate risk return associated with the strategy 540 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: that is being implemented. That was very complicated to do 541 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 4: in the zero interest rates environment because everyone through the 542 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 4: dices and it was a double six because you can 543 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 4: only make it right when money is free. Because when 544 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 4: money is free, investment has no merits, you know. And 545 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: now that we are in a situation where money are 546 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 4: some value, then you can be discriminating and that should 547 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 4: benefit again the one individual saving a dollar or the 548 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 4: one institutional investing a billion, and that in that respect, 549 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 4: regardless of this macro situation. 550 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: If I can come. 551 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 4: Back to our role, as I said, managers, that's where 552 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 4: we have a role to play. 553 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit about valuations relative to 554 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 2: risk and reward. Arguably, the United States, both the public 555 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: markets and the private markets are not cheap today. They're 556 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: not crazy dot com expensive, but they're certainly not inexpensive. 557 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 2: How does Europe and the rest of the world compare 558 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 2: on evaluation basis to the US. 559 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 4: Maybe because I come from a leverage finance backgrounds, As 560 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 4: I told you, I tend always to focus on the downside. 561 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: But I also learned along the way that you rarely 562 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 4: die I mean as a company from your from your 563 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: P and L or from your assets, but you always 564 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 4: die from your liabilities. And I think that effectively, this 565 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 4: excess in very cheap money, this success in leverage, this 566 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 4: success in thinking that you could access unlimited for an 567 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 4: indefinite period of time of cheap to free capital, may 568 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 4: have created some the wrong asset allocation pattern in some places. 569 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 4: So I think we've now entered a period where we 570 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 4: have to swallow this whole mispriced over leveled assets out there. 571 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 4: Corporate create was one obviously the bonds, I mean the 572 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 4: sovereign bond market, and we remember the SVB story. 573 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 3: It's about you know, t. 574 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 4: Builds, and then you obviously the real estate. You know, 575 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 4: many areas that were over leveled at the wrong cost, 576 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 4: and that could be painful because someone will have to 577 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 4: take the pain, even if you know, unlike two thousand 578 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: and eight, where the risk was concentrated, you know on 579 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 4: banks boundary today is much more spread across let's say, 580 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 4: you know, asset managers, but you have to find a 581 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 4: way to dry up all this excess of liquidity which 582 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 4: was necessary on the one hand, but maybe mispriced on 583 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 4: the other hand. And so today I think that part 584 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 4: of the IG fixed rate corporate bond market obviously you know, 585 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 4: part of the real estate and you know, we've been 586 00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 4: talking at length about that we'll have to to suffer 587 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 4: some of the pain or lossits in some where, shape 588 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 4: or form. As always on the other side of this 589 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: trade that we'll create, you know, great opportunities for people liquid, nimble, 590 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 4: who don't have to carry age, you know, in ventories. 591 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 4: You know, if I, if I may say, I have 592 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 4: the impression that the US will. 593 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 3: Be more. 594 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 4: Realistic in the way they approach that, you know, in 595 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 4: terms of you know, taking the heat, taking the pain 596 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: starting again in Europe, maybe there's a little bit of 597 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 4: preten and extent game, but it's always better, you know, 598 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 4: to you know, what has to be done ultimately, you know, 599 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 4: should be done immediately. 600 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: As they had a band aid off. 601 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 4: Exactly, and that's what we should do when it comes 602 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 4: to financial risk and financial pricing. 603 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: So you mentioned the access liquidly is causing accesses and 604 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: the locations have higher fed rates and other around the 605 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 2: world higher interest rates, taking some of that out of 606 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 2: the system and combined, what is the impact of the 607 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 2: regional banks that have gone value up? A handful of them, 608 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 2: but it certainly has put the fear of God into 609 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: a lot of small banking shops. What does that do 610 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: to all the access liquidity that's out there. 611 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 4: You know, on the regional bank rather not common. I'm 612 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 4: not an expert, and it came in as if you 613 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 4: has a surprise how quickly large, very large institution you know, 614 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 4: could get into some liquidity liquidity stress. Coming back to 615 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 4: my comment again, you know it's your liability side, and 616 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 4: there's been a plenty of comment there. What I see 617 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 4: is that once again for asset managers, it's a very 618 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 4: interesting structural opportunity because it creates a bit of void, 619 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 4: you know, in terms of the market that we can 620 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 4: fill in in some way, shape or form. So I 621 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 4: think that on the positive side, investors allocators today they 622 00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 4: can effectively allocate capital into strategies which will create a 623 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 4: compounding effect to their portfolio because what was I don't know, 624 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 4: three four percent in some strategies two years ago now 625 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 4: can be eight to ten. And so when you start, 626 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 4: you know, compounding your new allocation into these type of 627 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 4: strategies that can make up for the part of your 628 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 4: portfolio which itself you know, could be a little bit 629 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 4: underwater as a consequence of those rising interest rates you 630 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 4: know again, credit, you know, real estate. 631 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: What have you. 632 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 4: So that's the positive. You have to be able to 633 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 4: do that, right, So how do you do that? I mean, 634 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 4: if you have effectively the denominator's effect that people have 635 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 4: been you know talking about, or you know, more liquidity 636 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 4: constraint because cash is not coming back as quickly as 637 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 4: you had anticipated, because your managers cannot sell their portfolio. 638 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 3: Something the secondary market. 639 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 4: Has been developing like crazy on the private equity for example, 640 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 4: as I said, private credit, you know, is another one. 641 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 4: Real estate will be an obvious one, you know, given 642 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 4: the amount of capital out there. And so it's about 643 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 4: being prepared to say, Okay, I've been making you know, 644 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 4: five six seven percent on this strategy, maybe I will 645 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: you know, exit the strategy, albeit at a discount, you know, 646 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 4: the lowest possible, but the proceeds will be able to 647 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 4: be gener reinvested into strategy that will generate a higher 648 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 4: return which over a short medium time frame, can make 649 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 4: up you know, for this cash flow requirement that I 650 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 4: need for my pensioneers or you know what I have. 651 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 4: You So, I'm actually very optimistic that all asset owners, 652 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 4: asset locators, the one can be nimble. 653 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 3: You know. It's a very exciting time I heard. 654 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:42,240 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about how TKO champions impact investing. Obviously, 655 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: the goal is to get to some sort of sustainable future. 656 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 2: What your investment these is there? 657 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we were relatively early in what has 658 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 4: become a very mainstream strategy, you know, right rightly so, 659 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 4: and that was really you know, a combination of many factors. 660 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 4: We launched our very first growth equity growth private equity 661 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 4: strategy in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, way before you know 662 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 4: it has as I said, you know, become you know, 663 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 4: a must have strategy for many managers and for many allocators. 664 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 4: We started doing that because in Europe we've been investing 665 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 4: alongside entrepreneurs, families. As I said, well, not the buyout shop. 666 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 4: You know, we don't take control, you know, we don't 667 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 4: level up company. We're trying to, you know, in our 668 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 4: role of the middleman between the asset owners you know, 669 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 4: and the companies to allocate where we see the financial play, 670 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 4: but an impactful financial play. So when we started the 671 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 4: strategy in seventeen eighteen and started allocating capital investing in 672 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 4: entrepreneurs who had a solution that had to be massify 673 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 4: because when you want to meet this target and these goals, 674 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 4: you know, in terms of a climate of CEO two, 675 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 4: you know, reduction, it's great to be investing in what 676 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 4: will change in twenty by twenty fifty, but it's more 677 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 4: important to find what works today and needs to be massified, 678 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 4: scale up. You know, we're investing in profitable mid market 679 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 4: companies making twenty twenty five to fifty million. 680 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: A BDA and needed capital in. 681 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 4: Those guys are not looking to sell the company, they 682 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 4: need the capital in to scale. And we started doing 683 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 4: that across lo carbon mobility, across energy efficiencies of the 684 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 4: buildings as you know, you know it's forty percent of 685 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 4: the green gas emission, and so we started doing that. 686 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 3: I would say, you know. 687 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 4: Naturally five years later, we now can you represent effectively 688 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 4: the case studies? You know, obviously the truck record it matters, 689 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 4: but people want to understand what we're talking about when 690 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 4: we're talking about this type of fum impact investing here, 691 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 4: it's about climate. We then launch you know, regenerative agricultural 692 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 4: strategy because one of the key objective is how do 693 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 4: you capture carbon and there's nothing like you know, the 694 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,440 Speaker 4: soil and the ground, you know, to help do that. 695 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 4: That's on the equity side. And then we started doing 696 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 4: some private credit impact financing. 697 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 3: What does that mean? 698 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 4: You're a borrower, We're lending you some money at five percent, 699 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 4: you're three times you know, a BDA. We take all 700 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 4: the traditional credit metrics of a financial analysis, and then 701 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 4: we add a third dimension. If you hit certain target, 702 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,839 Speaker 4: certain goals, extra financial goals, then you will improve your 703 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 4: cost of funding and your five percent coupon will go 704 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,720 Speaker 4: down to four if effectively you demonstrate that you're reduced 705 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 4: by X or Y or change, you know, this production process, 706 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 4: and all of a sudden you realize that if your 707 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 4: cost of funding goes down as a consequence of some 708 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 4: extra financial goals being met, well your written on equity 709 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 4: goes up right, And so you can demonstrate that it's 710 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 4: not about being a philanthropy, it's about you know, making 711 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 4: sure that we use the capital available to send it, 712 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 4: you know, where it makes sense, and then all stakeholders, 713 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 4: you know, a benefit from it. And so as much 714 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 4: as five years ago it was nice to have and 715 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 4: once again create not compete, we're trying to push that 716 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 4: forward today. 717 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 3: It's not negotiable. 718 00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 4: It's not negotiable with our LPs. It's not negotiable with 719 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 4: our customers, with our partners, with our banks, with our clients, 720 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 4: with our staff, Barry, I mean when we talk to 721 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 4: some of our twenty something thirty something colleagues, professionals, it's 722 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 4: part of their commitment to the firm because one big 723 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 4: issue you know, in this when it comes to this 724 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 4: impact and YESG let's say in the wider sense, at best, 725 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 4: you can come across very opportunistic. At worst you'll come 726 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 4: across as fake. And in both situations it's not good. 727 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 4: And so as you know, our colleagues are staff, you 728 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 4: know people, and all the stakeholders, I mean there are 729 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 4: the guardians. 730 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 3: Uh, they are. 731 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 4: The truats of us, you know, being real here. So again, 732 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 4: now it's no longer nice to have. It's a must have, 733 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 4: and it's uh, there's only one way. 734 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 2: So ESG seems to have found a lot of support 735 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 2: in Europe. Are you a little bit surprised about how 736 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 2: this has become politicized in the US. 737 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 3: It seems like. 738 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 2: There are a group of people who are pushing back 739 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: against impact investing, sustainable investing, not because of the returns, 740 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 2: but they just don't like the politics of it. 741 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 4: Yep, I'm not surprised because, you know, and again I'm 742 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 4: an alien here, but you know, I'm I try to 743 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 4: be an observer, you know, of the dynamic of the 744 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,760 Speaker 4: of the politics here in the USA, and we even 745 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 4: experiment that ourselves, you know, with some some of our 746 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,840 Speaker 4: LPs very often made up of different boats, some teachers, 747 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 4: I mean, policemen, you know, employees, you know, public public servants, employees, 748 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 4: and whilst we were dealing with the same counterparty, the 749 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 4: same pension fund, some of their constituents, some of the 750 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 4: underlying boats disagree on. 751 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 3: The approach to take there. 752 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 4: So we've experienced that firsthand that within won't given investor, 753 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 4: you know, asset owner, there could be some divergence and 754 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 4: very often now I can say, because there was a 755 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 4: bit of misunderstanding of what we were trying to do and. 756 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 3: What others, you know, are trying to do so. 757 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 4: I'm hopeful that with a bit of education, you know, 758 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:47,840 Speaker 4: the science based approach, people we realize that it's not 759 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,919 Speaker 4: a politic It shouldn't be a political game. 760 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,240 Speaker 3: I understand why. I'm not native. 761 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 4: I understand why, but I think the majority should prevail 762 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,280 Speaker 4: to understand that the asset owners today, the asset managers 763 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 4: who can help them deploy, you know, the capitol, have 764 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 4: an historical mission because we will be we will be 765 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 4: judging fifty years down down the road. I mean, people 766 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 4: will look back and say, you know, what did you 767 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 4: do with the amount of capital that was available back 768 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,840 Speaker 4: then to effectively direct this capitol to to where it matters. 769 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 4: So I'm trying to take you know, this perspective because effectively, 770 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,359 Speaker 4: we've never been in an environment with so much cheap 771 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,920 Speaker 4: liquidity that could be used purposely. 772 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 2: So you talked about esg ratchets where people get better 773 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 2: rates if they hit certain metrics, and you talked a 774 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 2: little bit about agriculture regenera of agriculture. Explain for those 775 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 2: of us not familiar with that, what is regenera of agriculture? 776 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 2: What is the focus? What do you want to accomplish with? 777 00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,040 Speaker 2: It is it just carbon capture or is it. 778 00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 3: More it's the whole chain. 779 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,479 Speaker 4: I mean, it's act that you know, soil because without saying, 780 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 4: is a scarce resource that need to be maintained in 781 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 4: a way to be able, you know, to keep on 782 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 4: producing in a way that for the next generation you 783 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 4: don't look back and you leave you know, a brand 784 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 4: soil full of fertilizer or or others that. 785 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 3: Will not be able to. 786 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 4: Generate the same quality of product you know, for the 787 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 4: future generation at a time where you'll have to feed 788 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 4: you know, much more in on people. So the technique 789 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 4: here very similar to the to the climate approach you know, 790 00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,720 Speaker 4: we we took you know, five years ago, is really 791 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,280 Speaker 4: about finding entrepreneurs and the companies who have a solution 792 00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 4: for you know, soil, you know, effectively a fertility let's say. 793 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 3: Or some technique. You know. It's it's not really the. 794 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 4: Agri tech as you may you know, be used to, 795 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 4: but some some techniques have been proven and need this 796 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 4: capital to scale, and this capital would not be available 797 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 4: otherwise because it's not about you know, buying land or 798 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 4: acres of forest. It's not about the agri tech which 799 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 4: is effectively attracting a lot of a lot of capital. 800 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 4: But these entrepreneurs, these small cap businesses with the proven 801 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,680 Speaker 4: concept and profitability, and they need this capital, you know, 802 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 4: to scale. So you would be investing in a twenty 803 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 4: to thirty percent taking twenty thirty percent of the company, 804 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 4: investing this capital to effectively help scale the business to 805 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 4: a size where then you can get to more you know, 806 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 4: banking financing capital market which you know is not that open. 807 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 4: So it's this old band. So it's certainly the case 808 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,799 Speaker 4: in Europe. We see it more and more here in 809 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,839 Speaker 4: the US of this small MidCap market that doesn't have 810 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:53,760 Speaker 4: and even more so coming back to your common about 811 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 4: the regional banks, you've got part of the financial market 812 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,160 Speaker 4: structure which is disappearing, and so you need the alternative 813 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 4: source of capital. And so that's where you know, we 814 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 4: can be a very relevant tool, and that's that for 815 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 4: the companies and the investors also want to allocate there. 816 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,359 Speaker 2: And you partnered with some really interesting companies on this 817 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 2: access the big insurer and Unilever, the consumer products company. 818 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,240 Speaker 2: What's their interest in this sort of sustainable investor. 819 00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 4: So one comment, you know, as an aside, is, you know, 820 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 4: artic here we've always partnered with the or we try 821 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 4: as much as we can to partner with the corporates 822 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 4: to bring additional skill set. We did that in energy transition, 823 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 4: for example, with Total Energies very early on you seventeen eighteen. 824 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,840 Speaker 4: We did that in the aerospace cyber with a bunch 825 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 4: of preminent European and global players such as you know 826 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 4: Herbers that so Suffron Taless bringing you know, obviously some capital, 827 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 4: but more importantly you know, some skill set, some knowledge, 828 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 4: some rich So that back to my creating compete, we 829 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,560 Speaker 4: can tell a different, you know, a different story. 830 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 3: With with investors. 831 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,439 Speaker 4: And as I and as you just mentioned, the last 832 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 4: one you know with UNI Lever, you know is the 833 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 4: same is exactly the same approach, which is bringing additional 834 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,399 Speaker 4: expertise alongside an asset manager, US financial investors and there's 835 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 4: no shortage of capital, as we said, you know out 836 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,280 Speaker 4: there in that case, you know, one of the largest 837 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 4: European insurance company, if not global, and having you know, 838 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 4: together a different proposal fully aligned with some complimentary with 839 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,920 Speaker 4: some complimentary sourcing. 840 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 3: To the to the to the deal flow. 841 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,520 Speaker 4: And here again you know, at first people were maybe 842 00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 4: looking at us like, you know, why you need to 843 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 4: bring a corporate you know, there's some conflict of interest 844 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,919 Speaker 4: involved here, and then a few years you know, down 845 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 4: the line, they're like, well, that's a very different proposal 846 00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 4: that we may have heard too, you know from all 847 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,600 Speaker 4: the managers, and there are plenty, plenty of out there. 848 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 2: What's the conflict of interest if you're bringing in a 849 00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,319 Speaker 2: consumer product to try and make food on in a 850 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,800 Speaker 2: more efficient, productive, sustainable way. 851 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 4: Maybe that's my point that they should be known, and 852 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,440 Speaker 4: they are known, but you know, there's you know, people 853 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 4: at times are a little bit reluctant or resistant, you know, 854 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 4: to change. And so if that's that quo, it's really powerful, 855 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 4: isn't it. Well I love this quote of yours. I 856 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,200 Speaker 4: have to ask you about this. 857 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 2: The longer the happy hour, the harder the hangover, explain, 858 00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:34,080 Speaker 2: very very French. 859 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, well that was you know, I think that was 860 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 4: at Milken's at Milken Institute in May twenty two and 861 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,839 Speaker 4: that's when the interest rates you know, starting to raise. 862 00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 4: And I think I was telling you earlier I was 863 00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 4: surprised to see that many people in surprise because effectively 864 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,720 Speaker 4: the bar had been open for quite a long time 865 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:04,760 Speaker 4: with very you know, very cheap liquidity, if I may say, available, and. 866 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 2: Going back to the financial crisis, the entire period that 867 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,240 Speaker 2: followed was free those for everyone exactly. 868 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 4: And that's you know, that's ten years, if not if 869 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 4: not more. And some of us, some of us, I think, 870 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:23,040 Speaker 4: had effectively lost sight that liquidity should have a price 871 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 4: and credit, you know, has some value, and so effectively 872 00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,919 Speaker 4: this you know, the this comment I made was that, yes, 873 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,960 Speaker 4: people are going to have a hangover of this mispriced, 874 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,919 Speaker 4: over leveled asset they may have both invested into as 875 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,280 Speaker 4: a consequence of this free liquidity. 876 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 2: So let's talk about perhaps a mispriced asset class that 877 00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 2: was relying on free liquidly. As we're recording this, there 878 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,880 Speaker 2: is a recent Wall Street Journal headlined company insiders made 879 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,120 Speaker 2: millions before the SPAC bust. What are your thoughts on 880 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 2: the SPACs special purpose investment vehicles? How do you look 881 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 2: at those? 882 00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,360 Speaker 4: So we got into Sparks two years ago, hopefully not 883 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 4: to follow the herd, but because we saw there a 884 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 4: very useful technology that could help some of our private companies. 885 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:24,920 Speaker 4: You know that that which is what we do, you know, 886 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 4: belkof what we do is investing with private entrepreneurs accessing 887 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 4: the public market with the support of experienced manager, the 888 00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 4: operating partners, you know, with the support of experience you know, 889 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:43,319 Speaker 4: financial players, and effectively, you know, we are very successfully you. 890 00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,000 Speaker 1: Know, unsparked. 891 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 4: You know some we had. We took public on NeuroNEXT Amsterdam, 892 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 4: a great company in the TV content production business three 893 00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 4: billion turnover six hundred million a BDA. It's called you 894 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,879 Speaker 4: know fl Entertainment, great entrepreneurs Stefan Koby. It's a real 895 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 4: company or spack string at I guess you know, ten 896 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,840 Speaker 4: bucks or around real company. So the issue was not 897 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 4: the Spak as a technology. The issue was, you know, 898 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,719 Speaker 4: the type of company that we're trying to access this 899 00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,800 Speaker 4: market opportunistically and rightly, so in front of some capitol 900 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 4: that had been given to Spaks promoters and managers. Remember 901 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,839 Speaker 4: that interest rates were negative, so you know, Spaks were 902 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 4: used by some investors as you know, as a vault. 903 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:33,280 Speaker 3: You know, here's you know, some. 904 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,000 Speaker 4: Cash exactly, I mean, I'll make up you know, for 905 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,880 Speaker 4: the interest you know, shortfall, and I have the option 906 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 4: you know, to to opt out. 907 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:45,439 Speaker 2: So so it was a guaranteed higher yield I won't 908 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,600 Speaker 2: say high yields, but higher yield bonds with an equity 909 00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 2: option at the end. If you like the equity company, 910 00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:52,960 Speaker 2: you can. 911 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:53,359 Speaker 1: Stay with it. 912 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,080 Speaker 2: Cyber Capitals one, a few others did the same thing. 913 00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 2: You know. 914 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,040 Speaker 4: The technology itself was you know, excess of cash you know, 915 00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:04,080 Speaker 4: interest rates or or get negative cash or negative interest 916 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:05,800 Speaker 4: on my cash account. So here's the cash and I 917 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,160 Speaker 4: may opt out. Well, we tried to do in what 918 00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,200 Speaker 4: we did and some work. You know, although you know, 919 00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:13,680 Speaker 4: we decided to give back the capitol because back to 920 00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,800 Speaker 4: my skin in the game approach, the one we decided 921 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:21,759 Speaker 4: to return the capitol that was last you know, last month, 922 00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,280 Speaker 4: we had you know, one hundred and fifty million plus 923 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,839 Speaker 4: of our own capital committed to it. So rather than 924 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 4: chasing you know, the cheap option with the view of 925 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 4: hopefully making you know, the the return embeddied with the option. 926 00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 4: We're like, first and foremost, we're deplaying our capital. The 927 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 4: opportunity is not there. You know, We're not going to 928 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,720 Speaker 4: deploy a capital for the sake of it. 929 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 2: This comes back to skin in the game. When you're 930 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,760 Speaker 2: a co investor with your LPs, you don't make dumb 931 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,239 Speaker 2: decisions because hey, we have the cash, we might as 932 00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 2: well spend it. 933 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 4: I think so, and So that was just I think 934 00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 4: a misuse of a new interesting technique with some investors 935 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 4: and a misuse of interesting techniques for the wrong company. 936 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:11,600 Speaker 2: So I read a piece recently, a research piece that said, uh, 937 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,439 Speaker 2: Brexit may have taken as much as five percent off 938 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 2: the total GDP of the United Kingdom. You worked in London, 939 00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,920 Speaker 2: you're now in New York originally from from Paris. Does 940 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,840 Speaker 2: that sound realistic? What was the impact of Brexit on 941 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 2: the UK and and who has stepped into the void 942 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:34,719 Speaker 2: that brexfast teed up. 943 00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 4: So first of all, that's a decision that was made, 944 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 4: you know, by the by the British people, and you know, 945 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 4: I will not comment on the on the rational. Beyond that, 946 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 4: I read the same studios you know that you mentioned, 947 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 4: and every day I would talk to some France entrepreneurs 948 00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,720 Speaker 4: you in Europe telling me how challenging it has become 949 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,840 Speaker 4: and you know, just to move goods and things you know, 950 00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:00,839 Speaker 4: into and just your trading you know with you. The 951 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,600 Speaker 4: one part I can comment on was the whole debate 952 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,640 Speaker 4: around the future of the city of London as a 953 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:11,880 Speaker 4: prominent financial place global. 954 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:12,719 Speaker 3: But obviously you. 955 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 4: Know European well, I can tell you Barry is. You know, 956 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 4: since you know the world reopen and you can travel again. 957 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,680 Speaker 4: I'm actually going back more often to London than to 958 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,319 Speaker 4: Paris nowadays, which is my you know, the headquarter of 959 00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,759 Speaker 4: my firm. Why that because London remains you know, a 960 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 4: critical business center, you know, for financial services. There are 961 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 4: some challenging associated with from some regulation, you know, you 962 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:39,919 Speaker 4: know in the way you have to trade and white 963 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,560 Speaker 4: people and banks you know, had to had to open 964 00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,560 Speaker 4: or export some branches onto the continent. And I understand 965 00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,560 Speaker 4: why and that, you know, technicalities, but when it comes 966 00:53:52,600 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 4: to the cosmopolitan nature of London attracting global talents and 967 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 4: as much as I'm French, and Paris has been doing 968 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,840 Speaker 4: a tremendous job attracting talents and firms, but the scale 969 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,400 Speaker 4: is such that I wouldn't bet against London as a 970 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:21,640 Speaker 4: financial center. So we have to cope with technical aspects, 971 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,319 Speaker 4: you know, regulation, cost of doing business for some has 972 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 4: become very punitive if you don't have the scale. And 973 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,960 Speaker 4: that's why, you know, if I'm a bit selfish in 974 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 4: the approach. We were fully equipped on the continent to 975 00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:41,200 Speaker 4: start with. We're now moving back more aggressively into London 976 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:47,319 Speaker 4: because we were less over exposed when many people are 977 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,760 Speaker 4: doing the country. You know, people are trying to reduce 978 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:54,000 Speaker 4: their investmental location to the UK, their workforce in the UK. 979 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,160 Speaker 4: So we're trying to be a bit contriant and taking 980 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:56,880 Speaker 4: advantage of that. 981 00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:03,040 Speaker 2: So people overreacted in one direction. It's opportunities. Maybe Europe 982 00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:08,359 Speaker 2: is dealing with a war on its eastern border. What 983 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 2: has the Russian invasion of Ukraine done in terms of 984 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:19,480 Speaker 2: energy supplies and just the entire relationship of Europe with Russia. 985 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,480 Speaker 4: Well, it's it's a complicated one. It's a very sad 986 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,400 Speaker 4: one because I can tell you Barris sitting here in 987 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:30,360 Speaker 4: the US and and when I talked to france family 988 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,880 Speaker 4: over there, the perception of the war is very different 989 00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:36,799 Speaker 4: from one side to the of the pont to the 990 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,080 Speaker 4: to the other because the reality that it's as we 991 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,640 Speaker 4: you know, it's two hours away from many of the 992 00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:46,799 Speaker 4: Western European capital and the perception the filling with the 993 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,040 Speaker 4: population you know, is very you know, is very different. 994 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 4: So having said that, remember a year ago when the 995 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:59,480 Speaker 4: war started, obviously the concern about you know, energy independence, 996 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,960 Speaker 4: sustainability was was front and center. That was a I 997 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 4: think the silver lining of the situation to put more 998 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,400 Speaker 4: light and focus on accelerating you know, part of the 999 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,359 Speaker 4: transition and in itself, you know, that's that that was 1000 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,800 Speaker 4: an encouraging step. Looking backwards, you know you're into or 1001 00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,200 Speaker 4: eighteen months now, you know, into this situation. It's not 1002 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,600 Speaker 4: as bad I mean quote unquote on the energy side, 1003 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,759 Speaker 4: which is a good news, but the whole situation, you know, 1004 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:34,520 Speaker 4: which I think we are unfortunately stuck stuck with, you know, 1005 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,160 Speaker 4: for a relatively long period of time, as creating a 1006 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,240 Speaker 4: lot of uncertainty you know in the in the region 1007 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 4: and beyond, but also by the same token, a lot 1008 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:51,760 Speaker 4: of political willingness you know, to move to move quicker. 1009 00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:56,400 Speaker 4: And the response if you remember that the European government 1010 00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 4: made right after the war, I mean they made more 1011 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,759 Speaker 4: progress a matter of in a few weeks then we 1012 00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,200 Speaker 4: had on you know, in a few years. And so 1013 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,480 Speaker 4: at times it's it's effectively when the essential is at 1014 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,759 Speaker 4: stake that people can react constructively. 1015 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:14,719 Speaker 2: So the concern, aside from all the humanitarian tragedy of 1016 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,040 Speaker 2: the invasion was oil prices with spike, it would eventually 1017 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,240 Speaker 2: lead to recession in Europe. But a lot of Europe 1018 00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,720 Speaker 2: seems to have avoided that. What are your thoughts about 1019 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:32,040 Speaker 2: greater Europe tipping into a recession? And pretty clear parts 1020 00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:36,000 Speaker 2: of Europe have slowed down dramatically because of the increased 1021 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 2: costs and dealing with the war. What does the environment 1022 00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:40,360 Speaker 2: in Europe look. 1023 00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:40,560 Speaker 3: Like to you? 1024 00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,480 Speaker 4: So not this similar to what we're experiencing here in 1025 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,960 Speaker 4: the US and the reshoring you know of production capacity. 1026 00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,120 Speaker 4: We're seeing that in many countries across Europe. Re industrialization 1027 00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,640 Speaker 4: has been you know, probably the most popular world of 1028 00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:58,880 Speaker 4: politician you know lately, not only because you need to 1029 00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,800 Speaker 4: demonstrate less dependency you know, to outside market. 1030 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,080 Speaker 3: The whole de globalization you know theme. 1031 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:10,840 Speaker 4: I think it was accelerating by this whole situation, and 1032 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:13,680 Speaker 4: so for politicians, you know, it's a way to show, 1033 00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 4: you know, a direction for the population. It's a new paradigm, 1034 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:20,400 Speaker 4: a new software and coming back to what we do 1035 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,200 Speaker 4: for a living, you know, asset manager, it's a great 1036 00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 4: frame in you know, finding ways to allocate, reallocate, working 1037 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,440 Speaker 4: with global investors to attract more capital in certain you know, 1038 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:37,360 Speaker 4: countries or for certain industries. It's not happening overnight, but 1039 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,959 Speaker 4: you can make it happen fairly quickly. Fairly quickly being 1040 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,080 Speaker 4: you know, a matter of months. If you've got all 1041 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,640 Speaker 4: these stars aligned from the political direction you know, to 1042 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:51,960 Speaker 4: the to the population adhasion, and then you know. 1043 00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:53,960 Speaker 3: The capital allocation. 1044 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 4: And so if you you know, I'm hopeful and I'm 1045 00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,160 Speaker 4: optimistic that that could be, that could be the civil 1046 00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,160 Speaker 4: lining of the whole situation as dramatic, you know, the 1047 00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:05,440 Speaker 4: situation can be. 1048 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:11,040 Speaker 2: So you have offices in Asia. If we're deglobalizing to 1049 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:15,160 Speaker 2: some degree, and China has been the big industrial driver 1050 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,640 Speaker 2: of much of the world, what does it mean for 1051 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:22,160 Speaker 2: investing in Asia generally, but more specifically China. 1052 00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:26,160 Speaker 4: So what we've been doing in Asia, first out of 1053 00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:31,680 Speaker 4: Singapore where we were we started eight nine years ago 1054 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,920 Speaker 4: in Singapore, and then Korea and Japan. We don't have 1055 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,919 Speaker 4: any presence in China as a matter of fact, and 1056 00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 4: the dialogue we had with these investors locally was really 1057 00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:47,560 Speaker 4: about attracting them to some of our existing strategies in 1058 00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 4: Europe or in the US. 1059 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:51,400 Speaker 3: Asia. 1060 00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,640 Speaker 4: Is I have the chance, you know, to go back there, 1061 00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 4: you know from time to time, and each time I'm there, 1062 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,200 Speaker 4: I found you know, local economies that have and you 1063 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,560 Speaker 4: know transform. If you look at Singapore what it was 1064 01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 4: when we first moved there and you know eight years later, 1065 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,440 Speaker 4: I mean that's that's a global hub. Like a global 1066 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 4: hub with all the consequences you're reading every day, you know, 1067 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,720 Speaker 4: the Bloomberg News, you know the price of real estate 1068 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,000 Speaker 4: and the numbers of family offices who moved from Hong 1069 01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,200 Speaker 4: Kong from part of the Middle East. You know, to 1070 01:00:19,240 --> 01:00:21,520 Speaker 4: open there for the very same reason that you have created, 1071 01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:27,200 Speaker 4: you know, a great talent hub, a very business friendly environment. 1072 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 3: You know, you've got the. 1073 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 4: Most sophisticated sovereign wealth funds in the world. We were 1074 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,800 Speaker 4: lucky enough, you know, to have Temasek backing us as 1075 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 4: wely you know as twenty sixteen. I've been a great 1076 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 4: partner ever since. Great place, you know, great marketplace. And 1077 01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:44,520 Speaker 4: so the way we look at our single properations today. 1078 01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,400 Speaker 4: You know, we have a headquarter Paris, and we have 1079 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,240 Speaker 4: three global hubs New York, London, Singapore and all of 1080 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 4: these hubs, you know, then you can reach on a 1081 01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 4: global basis, first investors and effective you're tracking them where 1082 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,760 Speaker 4: we think there is an interesting investment posle and also 1083 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,000 Speaker 4: creating investment, you know, opportunities when you've got this supply 1084 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:08,280 Speaker 4: demand imbalance. Again, it all comes down to supply demand 1085 01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,120 Speaker 4: and how we can best take advantage of that. 1086 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,960 Speaker 2: Really interesting, So let's jump to our favorite questions that 1087 01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,680 Speaker 2: we ask all of our guests, starting with what have 1088 01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,640 Speaker 2: you been streaming these days? What's been keeping you informed 1089 01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:26,840 Speaker 2: and entertained? Either podcast or Netflix or whatever. 1090 01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,200 Speaker 4: One I like and I recommend, but because that's being 1091 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,760 Speaker 4: produced by this company we backed that we took, we 1092 01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:37,240 Speaker 4: helped take you know, public a few months ago. Is 1093 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,400 Speaker 4: the Peaky Blinders. That's great entertainment, and only because I love, 1094 01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 4: you know, this whole story about you know, the villain 1095 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 4: and the gangsters and all that, but more eputently because 1096 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:47,320 Speaker 4: that's great. 1097 01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:49,280 Speaker 2: Is that Netflix or Amazona? 1098 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,920 Speaker 4: It's a Netflix one. It's a Netflix one I strongly 1099 01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 4: recommend and produced by our friend at fl Entertainment. 1100 01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 2: Really interesting. So who were your mentors who helped to 1101 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:00,480 Speaker 2: shape your career? 1102 01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:08,280 Speaker 4: So few of them are senior people I worked for 1103 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:11,120 Speaker 4: when I was a young analyst, you know, an associate, 1104 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:14,120 Speaker 4: because every one of them, in their own, you know, 1105 01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,640 Speaker 4: different approach, helped me challenge the fact that we are 1106 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:21,920 Speaker 4: going on our own at a relatively young age, you know, 1107 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 4: for this business. Some of them telling us, well, it's 1108 01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,320 Speaker 4: either too late or too early for good or bad reasons. 1109 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,400 Speaker 4: And on the contrary, people saying, which was less the 1110 01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 4: case is in Europe than it can be the case 1111 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,400 Speaker 4: here in the US. There's never a good time, and 1112 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,240 Speaker 4: you should give it a go, you know. And so 1113 01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,400 Speaker 4: many of them were finance professional most of the time 1114 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:49,160 Speaker 4: in investment banking and still remained and I've still remain, 1115 01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,160 Speaker 4: you know, friends. Some of them join us by the 1116 01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,240 Speaker 4: way along the way, you know, at at TKO. And 1117 01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,480 Speaker 4: there's that's one thing that she was very valuable. When 1118 01:02:58,480 --> 01:02:59,880 Speaker 4: you start your own venture. 1119 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,000 Speaker 2: What are some of your favorite books? What are you 1120 01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:02,960 Speaker 2: reading right now? 1121 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:08,520 Speaker 4: So two books I've started very different. The first one 1122 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:12,480 Speaker 4: I was lucky to turn one of the again Mike 1123 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,560 Speaker 4: Milkan's you know Evan you know recently both in La 1124 01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,200 Speaker 4: and then Leon and as you know, is extremely focused 1125 01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:25,080 Speaker 4: on healthcare and the whole focus is putting through his 1126 01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:31,680 Speaker 4: institute and the all the philanthropy around there. And the book, 1127 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,720 Speaker 4: you know, the book is called Faster Cures Accelerating the 1128 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:39,640 Speaker 4: Future of Health, you know, by Mike Milkan, is something 1129 01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:43,480 Speaker 4: which is fascinating because you know, in a job day 1130 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,680 Speaker 4: to day you know, it's really you know, short term, 1131 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:47,360 Speaker 4: and when you step back a bit and you look 1132 01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,200 Speaker 4: a little bit of these demographic issues. You know, we 1133 01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,320 Speaker 4: touch based on some of those issues, you know, energy 1134 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:55,840 Speaker 4: and all that, but the demographic is probably the most 1135 01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:00,520 Speaker 4: challenging one. And even if it's fifty seventy five from now, 1136 01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,000 Speaker 4: I think we should start factoring in you know, many 1137 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:08,160 Speaker 4: of that, you know, in Today's Decision and the other book, 1138 01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:11,720 Speaker 4: you know, more recent I was lucky to meet a 1139 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:18,320 Speaker 4: French professor in Boston who's teacher both at HBS and HKS. 1140 01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,000 Speaker 3: She's been there for twenty years, you know. 1141 01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:24,960 Speaker 4: Her name is Julie Batilana. And the last book is 1142 01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:29,000 Speaker 4: called Power for All, and it's all about you know, 1143 01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,800 Speaker 4: the relationship to I would say even power, but if 1144 01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:36,120 Speaker 4: effectively power is about having an influence on making someone 1145 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:39,520 Speaker 4: else change behavior. How it's not only top down and 1146 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:41,440 Speaker 4: the way we may have learned it, and how we 1147 01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:47,960 Speaker 4: should with the new generation in a new cycle, and 1148 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:51,320 Speaker 4: the perspective of things that are you know critical to me, 1149 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:55,480 Speaker 4: which are you democracy but also capitalism which is fueling 1150 01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,560 Speaker 4: many of that. How do you reconcile you know all that, 1151 01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:59,960 Speaker 4: And it's worthwhile reading sounds entry. 1152 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:04,200 Speaker 2: Our last two questions, what sort of advice would you 1153 01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,640 Speaker 2: give to a recent college graduate who is interested in 1154 01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:11,080 Speaker 2: a career in either private equity or investing. 1155 01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:15,160 Speaker 4: Well, I would Sandymno. Some of the motos were using 1156 01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:20,320 Speaker 4: every day at TKO Capital. Be curious, think out of 1157 01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:24,800 Speaker 4: the box, be on the ball, think big. You know, 1158 01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:29,520 Speaker 4: I will share that with them because that's one thing 1159 01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 4: that doesn't change. Technology may change, but you know, interpersonal 1160 01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:39,040 Speaker 4: skill set and being being hungry, I think that's what matters. 1161 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,640 Speaker 2: Interesting And our final question, what do you know about 1162 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,920 Speaker 2: the world of investing today you wish you knew twenty 1163 01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,480 Speaker 2: five or so years ago when you were first getting started. 1164 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,080 Speaker 3: Never take anything for granted. 1165 01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:55,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being so generous with your time, Matthew. 1166 01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,880 Speaker 2: We have been speaking with Matthew Chebron, co founder of 1167 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,600 Speaker 2: TKO Capital. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure 1168 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,120 Speaker 2: and check out any of the other five hundred or 1169 01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:09,200 Speaker 2: so discussions we've had over the past eight or so years. 1170 01:06:09,360 --> 01:06:13,640 Speaker 2: You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you 1171 01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,360 Speaker 2: find your favorite podcast. Sign up for my daily reading 1172 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,560 Speaker 2: list at Rittholts dot com. Follow me on Twitter, at 1173 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:24,400 Speaker 2: rit Holts follow all of the Bloomberg Family of podcasts 1174 01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,520 Speaker 2: on Twitter at podcast I would be remiss if I 1175 01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:30,960 Speaker 2: did not thank the crack team that helps put the 1176 01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:35,680 Speaker 2: conversations together each week. My audio engineer is Sebastian Escobar. 1177 01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,280 Speaker 2: My producer is Paris walt A. Teak of val Bron 1178 01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,360 Speaker 2: is our project manager. Sean Russeau is my head of research. 1179 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,520 Speaker 2: I'm Barry Ridholts. You've been listening to Masters in Business 1180 01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:48,320 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg Radio.