WEBVTT - What are the Financial Benefits of Getting Married ? 

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Welcome to MEREN talks

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<v Speaker 1>your Money. The personal finance edision of MEREN talks money.

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<v Speaker 1>In these bonus podcasts, we talk about the best strategies

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<v Speaker 1>for making the most of your money. Him Arin Sumset

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<v Speaker 1>Web and with Me Senior reporter and Money to stilled

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<v Speaker 1>off A. John Stapbeck, Hi, John, Hi, mil Okay, So,

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<v Speaker 1>this week we're answering a verious personal question because it

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<v Speaker 1>comes from one of our very own producers, Moses. What's

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<v Speaker 1>on your mind this week about your money?

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<v Speaker 2>All right? All right, I'll tell you, maren. So, I've

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<v Speaker 2>been with my girlfriend for just over eight years. We

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<v Speaker 2>are very committed to each other and don't plan on

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<v Speaker 2>breaking up, but we question whether it's worth getting married

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<v Speaker 2>or whether we should just keep things as they are now.

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<v Speaker 2>We are renting a place at the moment and plan

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<v Speaker 2>to eventually buy a place at some point in the future,

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<v Speaker 2>but putting the romance of it all to one side,

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<v Speaker 2>we're curious on what the practical benefits are of getting married.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, interesting, I mean I'm mentioned at the

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<v Speaker 1>very beginning. Am I allowed to ask you a question

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<v Speaker 1>back before we start?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, I say, when you say we're questioning whether it's

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<v Speaker 1>worth getting married, well, you know, I mean clearly you're

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<v Speaker 1>not just talking about financial benefits. What do you mean

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<v Speaker 1>by worth?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the way that we see it is that at

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<v Speaker 2>the moment, we know that we want to be together

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<v Speaker 2>for a very very long time. But getting married it

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<v Speaker 2>seems like a lot of fuss, right, the whole wedding

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<v Speaker 2>and like then having to like potentially like change names,

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<v Speaker 2>all that sort of stuff. But is there like an actual,

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<v Speaker 2>like practical benefit to it?

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<v Speaker 1>All right? The first thing I would say is it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to be difficult. Registry office, keep your own names, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>ten minutes done, dusted, Yeah, all good? So you know

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<v Speaker 1>it could be could be really really easy. Don't need

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<v Speaker 1>to have a twenty thousand pound wedding two hundred people? Yes, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So bearing that in mind, can we make it worth

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<v Speaker 1>it for you if we assume you're only going to

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<v Speaker 1>have a quick ten minute wedding at the registree office,

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<v Speaker 1>No big dinner, no champagne, nothing, ten minutes in our

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<v Speaker 1>job done.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm very open to it.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm very open to it. Excellent, right, John, are

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<v Speaker 1>you an expert here?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not.

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<v Speaker 1>John's married, by the way, so he's automatically an expert.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I I did see one thing I identify with,

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<v Speaker 3>and I actually think a lot of men certainly I

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<v Speaker 3>don't feel like I can speak form, but certainly for men

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<v Speaker 3>I've talked to, the idea of being married was always

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<v Speaker 3>quite attractive. For maybe the idea of actually getting married

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<v Speaker 3>was a bit of our pain in the backseat. Because

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<v Speaker 3>it is all very well seeing registry office do what

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<v Speaker 3>you want to do. One of the marriage is that

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<v Speaker 3>it involves a wider group of people than just you

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the time. So it depends on how

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<v Speaker 3>your relationships are with various other parts of your family

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<v Speaker 3>as to how happy they might be or might not

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<v Speaker 3>be with the wedding that you want as opposed to

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<v Speaker 3>the wedding that they wish you would have.

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<v Speaker 1>This is this is not that kind of podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>You've got to think about the emotional sides of all

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<v Speaker 3>of these things. When it comes to finance. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm always gibbering about investment psychology of marriage psychologists.

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<v Speaker 1>What you're telling me here, John, is that lots of

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<v Speaker 1>men don't want to get married because admin and in laws.

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<v Speaker 3>Basically yes, necessarily in laws. It might be their own

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<v Speaker 3>families as well. But other than that, inheritance tax is

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<v Speaker 3>probably the biggest, most obvious factor.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we should start with the little ones. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and let's start with the little bits. Okay. The first

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<v Speaker 1>one is there is actually a marriage tax allowance. There

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<v Speaker 1>is a tiny little financial benefit to getting married if

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<v Speaker 1>one of you is not using up their full income

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<v Speaker 1>tax allowance. So you have to have one person who

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<v Speaker 1>is not an income taxpayer and one person who is

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<v Speaker 1>an income taxpayer, and the non payer can transfer part

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<v Speaker 1>of their personal allowance, their personal income tax allowance to

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<v Speaker 1>the taxpayer. They can transfer a maximum ten percent of

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<v Speaker 1>the allowance, which means that there will be one two

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and sixty pounds that goes tax free that wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>have been tax free otherwise, saving you a massive two

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<v Speaker 1>hundred and fifty two pounds a year. Are we done here, Moses,

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<v Speaker 1>I do it for you? Not enough? Not enough?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, there's one small problem in that your spouse has

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<v Speaker 3>to be a basic tax payer as well. Yes, so

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<v Speaker 3>if the forty PA, then that's that's the window. Yes,

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<v Speaker 3>that's one benefit.

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<v Speaker 1>The next thing that I think is attractive about this

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<v Speaker 1>and this again will only apply to a small number

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<v Speaker 1>of people. Is that you can inherit a defined benefit pension, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And we always talk about how wonderful defined benefit pensions are.

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<v Speaker 1>But a lot of defined benefit pensions, not all, but

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<v Speaker 1>I say the majority come with the ability for the

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<v Speaker 1>surviving spouse, and they do it here to the word

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<v Speaker 1>spouse pretty carefully. I don't think you can nominate anyone else.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you aren't married on the death, then it's

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<v Speaker 1>generally not inheritable. Remember that a pension is is controlled

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<v Speaker 1>by the trustees as opposed to by you yourself, and

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<v Speaker 1>this in this kind of case, but in the main,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're married, you will usually get mostly fifty percent

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<v Speaker 1>I think it is these days, sometimes two thirds of

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<v Speaker 1>a dB pension. Now, not very many people have dB

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<v Speaker 1>pensions anymore. But if you happen to have one, and

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<v Speaker 1>you would like your partner to inherit some of it

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<v Speaker 1>on your death and getting married is a really good idea.

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<v Speaker 1>Now that's a big money one. Most as I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think you have a dB pension, But.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no I don't. But I'm pretty sure that my

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<v Speaker 2>partner is already assigned as being the recipient of my

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<v Speaker 2>pension if anything happens to me anyway.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, that's a defined contribution. Let's say that you had

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<v Speaker 1>a defined benefit pension, one of those wonderful ones that

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<v Speaker 1>John and I would like to have, that comes automatically

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<v Speaker 1>every month, inflation linked, et cetera, et cetera. You don't

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<v Speaker 1>have to do anything. The problem is that problem, not

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<v Speaker 1>your problem. Very nice. If you were not married, that

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<v Speaker 1>would die with you. If you were married, your lucky

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<v Speaker 1>wife would get a large percentage of it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's nicee right, that is great.

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<v Speaker 1>This is not one for you, but maybe maybe one

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<v Speaker 1>for some other people. What next the way, John.

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<v Speaker 3>Sorry, they've been including several partnerships here, so it's several

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<v Speaker 3>partners and married. I've got the same rules in case

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<v Speaker 3>anyone's confused about that.

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<v Speaker 1>And I would like to add something to that, by

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<v Speaker 1>the way, which is, there is no such thing as

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<v Speaker 1>a common law marriage. If you do not actually get

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<v Speaker 1>around getting married and doing the admin for getting married,

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<v Speaker 1>or you are not married, there is no such thing

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<v Speaker 1>as a common oalpartnership that gives you the same rights

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<v Speaker 1>as being married. It's a myth that will not go away.

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<v Speaker 3>And I mean that's really important because so many people

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<v Speaker 3>think that that the rules are slightly more complicated in Scotland.

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<v Speaker 3>But even then it's not that complicated. It's basically the same.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you want to get if you like, I

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<v Speaker 3>think it's a cohabitation agreement. But even then, the amount

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<v Speaker 3>the admin you need to do to get a cohabitation agreement,

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<v Speaker 3>you might as well just go and get married, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I would suggest, but looking at it, but yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 3>really important. Just because you've lived together for xt number

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<v Speaker 3>of years doesn't mean that your spouse, so you're not

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<v Speaker 3>your spouse is not entasled. And if you are living together,

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<v Speaker 3>make sure if you own a properly then it should

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<v Speaker 3>be owned jointly. If you are in a relationship in

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<v Speaker 3>your name is not on the mortgage, then make sure

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<v Speaker 3>you'll find out why that is and get to own

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<v Speaker 3>the mortgage or you know, get led to the person.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, thank you, John. Back to marriage, So we're

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<v Speaker 1>not getting rid of people here, not where we're going, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So an awful lot of this, I'm afraid, and awful

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the benefits of being married are about death.

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<v Speaker 1>So sorry, yes, but I want to move on to

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<v Speaker 1>isis so you can inherit an iso from your from

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<v Speaker 1>your spouse, so when they die, their ISA comes to

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<v Speaker 1>you inside the wrapper, you inherit the rapper itself. So

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<v Speaker 1>what it ends up with is you end up with

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<v Speaker 1>a with a second allowance in the year of your

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<v Speaker 1>spouse is deaf. Do you get your own twenty thousand

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<v Speaker 1>allowance and then there is transferred over to you. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's nice. That's a good one.

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<v Speaker 3>That is good.

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<v Speaker 1>John's looking doubtful about that. Do you think I've got

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<v Speaker 1>that wrong? John?

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<v Speaker 3>No, No, I think you know you're absolutely. I'm just thinking, yes,

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<v Speaker 3>that is when that's what I hadn't thought.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, So I think that's that's a very good one.

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<v Speaker 1>It's definitely a reason to get married. Inheriting and is

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<v Speaker 1>isost the perfect investment rapper. The other ones are really

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<v Speaker 1>again about the transfer of allowances. We'll come back to

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<v Speaker 1>death in a minute. We'll come back to i T.

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<v Speaker 1>John is athlete itching to talk about IHT. There's also

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<v Speaker 1>the transfer of capital gains allowances. Right, So there's no

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<v Speaker 1>capital gains when you transfer something from yourself to your spouse.

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<v Speaker 1>If you transfer something to somebody else, you have to

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<v Speaker 1>pay capital gains on the transfer. But between you and

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<v Speaker 1>this is even before you're dead. You can transfer that

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<v Speaker 1>allowance around. So if you have something that you want

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<v Speaker 1>to sell and it's going to use all of your

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<v Speaker 1>capital gains allowance, you can transfer some of it to

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<v Speaker 1>your spouse and then they can sell that bit and

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<v Speaker 1>use capital gains allowance as well. So that's a particularly

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<v Speaker 1>useful one. Not the capital gains allowances are quite what

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<v Speaker 1>they used to be, but nonetheless that is a useful

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<v Speaker 1>advantage to being married. I can see most is really

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<v Speaker 1>getting into this. You're nearly over the line, aren't you.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, I'm there, Yeah, I'm almost sold.

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<v Speaker 3>It's all about the tax efficiency.

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<v Speaker 1>All about tax ficiency, all right, John, iht.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean inheritance tax is just so everyone's got

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<v Speaker 3>a three hundred and twenty five thousand pounds inheritance tax allowance,

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<v Speaker 3>and if you're married and you die, everything goes over

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<v Speaker 3>to your spouse, and that includes your allowance, so you

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<v Speaker 3>don't have to do anything you'd have to do any admin.

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<v Speaker 3>You don't even have to have a will. You should

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<v Speaker 3>have a will, but if you don't, then they'll still

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<v Speaker 3>get your allowance. And so that means that the autu

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<v Speaker 3>might live six hundred and fifty pounds they can pass on.

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<v Speaker 3>And if you've got a family home worth you know,

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<v Speaker 3>at least three hundred and fifty pounds, then that's a

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<v Speaker 3>million pounds in total you can pass it on. If you're

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<v Speaker 3>not married, then you're gonna have to a you're gonna

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<v Speaker 3>have to write a will to make sure that you

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<v Speaker 3>use up your HT allowance when you die, otherwise it

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<v Speaker 3>will it will die with you. And then your spouse

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't doesn't automatically in orth not your spouse, you're the

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<v Speaker 3>person you're living with, doesn't inherit your allowance, And so

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<v Speaker 3>basically we can.

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<v Speaker 1>Call that, we can call the person who isn't the

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<v Speaker 1>spouse the non spouse. For the person.

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<v Speaker 3>The non spouse. Yeah, so yeah, the non spouse doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>automatically inherit any of your allowances. And so basically you're

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<v Speaker 3>back to ay, You're back to a massive ADMIN nightmare.

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<v Speaker 3>And there is also the you know, that's the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that obviously life is uncertain, you don't know what's going

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<v Speaker 3>to happen, and a lot of the time you get

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<v Speaker 3>one of the reasons that things like the spousal allowance

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<v Speaker 3>eventually was you know, automatically transferred. Was because you go

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<v Speaker 3>all of these kind of somewhat tragic stories about people

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<v Speaker 3>who died unexpectedly and then their partners left for a

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<v Speaker 3>nightmare or kicked out of their house because they have

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<v Speaker 3>an ict A liability there they shouldn't have had if

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<v Speaker 3>they were better organized. The problem is if you're not married,

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<v Speaker 3>you can end up in that position. So that's that

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<v Speaker 3>is one very good reason to get married, and it

0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.000
<v Speaker 3>gets ten times worse if you get kids, because if

0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.520
<v Speaker 3>you get kids and again you're not on top of

0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:31.440
<v Speaker 3>your ADMIN and you aren't married, then the situation when

0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.640
<v Speaker 3>you die is much more complicated than if you are married.

0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.600
<v Speaker 1>And it's different in Scotland and England right because this

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 1>day state has different ways of dividing up you appropriate

0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:41.640
<v Speaker 1>if you.

0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, then ness to see laws are different. Don't know

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:49.280
<v Speaker 3>the exact details of how they're different, but it's still

0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.080
<v Speaker 3>the point is it's like you, if you don't want

0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.040
<v Speaker 3>the person you've had kids wait to be left high

0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.120
<v Speaker 3>and dry in the event is something bad happening, you

0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:01.199
<v Speaker 3>either need to make sure that you cross every t

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:05.319
<v Speaker 3>and do every eye sharpish, or you can get married.

0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.079
<v Speaker 3>And there's an element of protection from that even if

0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:10.120
<v Speaker 3>the WATS does happen.

0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, So that's that actually, which I think is

0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.960
<v Speaker 1>an excellent reason to get married. But I want to

0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.480
<v Speaker 1>go briefly back to your earlier thing you mentioned earlier.

0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.520
<v Speaker 1>It's about an expression of wishes on your pension. So

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:24.000
<v Speaker 1>most of us have a DC pension, a defined contribution.

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.679
<v Speaker 1>If we talk about this too much, I don't know, No,

0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.280
<v Speaker 1>talk about pensions too much, isn't it with a DC.

0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:36.360
<v Speaker 1>With a DC pension, you need to make it clear

0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:38.640
<v Speaker 1>who you want the money to go to on your deaths.

0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.080
<v Speaker 1>You need to fill in that. All any pension bride

0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:42.600
<v Speaker 1>will have a form. You fill it in with your

0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 1>expression of wishes. And it's not that I mean, this

0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.600
<v Speaker 1>is the interesting thing. It's an expression of wishes because

0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 1>legally it's not your decision to make because the pension

0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.719
<v Speaker 1>funds are controlled by the pension trustees. But again, if

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 1>you make that expression of which it wishes, it would

0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.120
<v Speaker 1>be very bizarre for that not to happen. So make

0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.000
<v Speaker 1>sure you do that on your DC.

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I mean, the other interesting with pensions is

0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.840
<v Speaker 3>that it takes quite a long time for the process

0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:14.360
<v Speaker 3>after someone dies because of learned from experience, for to

0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:17.319
<v Speaker 3>then get passed on to their partner or it can

0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 3>do so. It definitely makes sure that the wishes are

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 3>very very clear, because you want that ad meant to

0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 3>go as smoothly as it possibly can, and certainly in

0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.960
<v Speaker 3>my experience, pension providers are not the fastest dealing with stuff.

0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.080
<v Speaker 1>No, I can't think why the other reason to get married?

0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 1>It's all these endless studies showing you that married people

0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.840
<v Speaker 1>are happier than people who are not married. Do you

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 1>buy that, John, you look pretty happy. John's a happy guy.

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:46.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm happy.

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I mean, assuming you've got a happy marriage. I

0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:54.680
<v Speaker 3>always say, I say a lot of these these studies

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.280
<v Speaker 3>with a pinch of salts. I don't see how they

0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 3>can control. For the other fact, you know, there's got

0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 3>to be an element of self selection, and they have been.

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 3>They approach people road speaking.

0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:08.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it might the happiness just being finding someone you

0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:09.680
<v Speaker 1>want to be married to.

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.760
<v Speaker 3>I think it's more the couples that end up taking

0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.440
<v Speaker 3>part in these studies are probably basically quite happy and

0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:23.560
<v Speaker 3>not not wildly dysfunctional. You think they say that some

0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.080
<v Speaker 3>people in bad marriages. Other than that.

0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 1>They don't ask divorce people do they.

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:33.240
<v Speaker 3>Well, yeah, exactly, it's a survivorship bias school, that is, it.

0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:37.120
<v Speaker 1>Is a massive survivorship bias. Okay, so there we go.

0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 1>Don't get married. It will make you happy. The act

0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 1>of getting married in itself will not make you happy.

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 1>There are some other factors doing good that do get

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 1>married to avoid ADMIN and transfer your tax allowances around

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:49.360
<v Speaker 1>the place. Does that something's up?

0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:52.640
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? And also that will make you happier not having

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:53.560
<v Speaker 3>to do as much admin.

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, any admin, you don't have to do it automatic. Joy.

0:15:56.680 --> 0:15:58.760
<v Speaker 1>So Moses, when do the invitations arrived? John? And I?

0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 1>Already we're free for the next months or so?

0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:07.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, really, okay, excellent, excellent? All right, Well I'll be

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.640
<v Speaker 2>passing by Patt and Garden on the way home, and yeah,

0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:16.400
<v Speaker 2>my mind has changed. But no, I'm not sure that actually,

0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:18.960
<v Speaker 2>like being married would make me any happier, because I

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.080
<v Speaker 2>don't think it would because I feel like, like I

0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.680
<v Speaker 2>I already live a life in which I'm basically married,

0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 2>Because like, I feel like if someone wants to leave you,

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.440
<v Speaker 2>they can leave you anyway. And then I'm not sure

0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 2>that that like a piece of paper would really stop them. However,

0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.560
<v Speaker 2>I do think that I do think that everything to

0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:50.080
<v Speaker 2>do with the financial side of things. Should I pass

0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.280
<v Speaker 2>away and leave her, then I think, yeah, that's actually

0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>like super important because statistically speaking, I probably will pass

0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>away before her, and if we do have kids, I

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.000
<v Speaker 2>don't want to want for her to experience any extra

0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:09.120
<v Speaker 2>stress of sorting out all of the ADMIN and the paperwork,

0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Like it's not worth it.

0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.520
<v Speaker 1>And we can sell people anything come with John by

0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:20.640
<v Speaker 1>telling them there's less ADMIN. It is. Actually it's quite

0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot harder to leave somebody if you're married to them,

0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:28.840
<v Speaker 1>because divorce is piled of ADMIN so much. Again, and

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.719
<v Speaker 1>so if we want to avoid ADMIN, get married, stay married.

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:34.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's the message from this podcast, which seems to

0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 1>be changing its focus slightly. Well, straight back to Pure

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:45.120
<v Speaker 1>Finance next week. Thanks for listening to this week's Marry

0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:47.679
<v Speaker 1>and Talk to Your Money. If you like us show, rate, review,

0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 1>and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Also be sure

0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 1>to follow me and John on ex or Twitter at

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:58.200
<v Speaker 1>marrynus W and John Underscore Steppic. This episode was produced

0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 1>by some SIDI production support from Moses and Thank You Moses.

0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.879
<v Speaker 1>Sound designed by Blake Maples. Questions and comments on this

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<v Speaker 1>show and all our shows. Always welcome. Our show email

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:12.960
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