WEBVTT - Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: ARSON - Revenge, Money, Cover-Up Crime, Pyrophilia. 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:07.520 Quality dams. But Joseph's gotten more. You know, I don't 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:17.600 really know how how man originally discovered fire. We always 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:19.720 have this image in our minds. I don't know about 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:23.600 you guys. I have it of you know, these kind 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.640 of chromagnum looking creatures that are sitting around in a 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:31.120 cave and all of a sudden, one of them, you know, 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.920 strikes a rock against another rock, and suddenly they discover, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.800 you know, fire. I've always thought that maybe it was 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:44.120 a lightning strike, perhaps this kind of natural manifestation, maybe 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.239 from the sweet Lord above. Something caught on fire, and 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.800 they were amazed by it, and they took it and 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.840 they kept it, and it provided so much for them. 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.240 It provided it split the night at that point in time, 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.800 no artificial light. Suddenly they had naturally occurring light where 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.760 they could see in the darkness those things that were 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:09.800 out there. Suddenly they had access to warmth when it 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.880 was very, very cold. Can you imagine being in the 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:14.880 midst of the ice age or at the end of 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:19.039 the last ice age, and you're freezing to death, but 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.400 yet you have this cloe that you can sit around 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.960 and rub your hands in front of. They learned how 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:34.920 to cook, perhaps with fire. But now in the modern context, 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:40.120 fire represents many other things. We can manufacture things with it, 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:47.960 we can fuel things, industry runs on it. But in 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:55.080 my world fire fire generally comes down to this, something 0:01:55.280 --> 0:02:00.600 is being destroyed that may be a criminal otherwise would 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.880 not want to be found today on bodybags, We're going 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.040 to have kind of a brief primer, a brief discussion 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:16.639 on fire and arson. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:25.120 is bodybags. Dave. The scaredest I have ever been at 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:30.359 any type of scene. For me, this is me personally. Okay, 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:32.799 let me run down this. Let me break this down 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:38.400 to you. Where cases not where there was an active 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:41.880 shooter still running around, or there was an angry crowd 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.320 or something like that. Because I had my share of those. 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:49.600 It was always involving structure fires. First off, since I 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:54.160 was a little boy, I've always been fascinated by firefighters, 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:55.760 not cops. I was not one of those kids that 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.040 wanted to be a cop. I always loved firefighters and 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.000 when I was little, I don't know if you remember this. 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.160 Do you remember Texico fire Chief? It was like the 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:10.720 gas they used to have Texico fire Chief. Texico used 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.040 to sell firefighter helmets, and they were old fashioned helmets, 0:03:14.600 --> 0:03:16.640 and you could get the deluxe model that had a 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:17.960 radio that you could. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.520 Put out inside. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.639 My uncle, my uncle, who I regard in my life 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:25.840 as the closest thing I really ever had to a father, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:30.120 he bought that from me, the most treasure gifts I 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.440 ever had. And I always liked firefighters. I liked firefighters 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:39.120 as a death investigator because firefighters are fascinating in the 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.720 sense that they don't it doesn't matter to them if 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.960 they get dirty, they don't care, and they've always got 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.680 some new piece of equipment that they want to something 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.080 like that. It's like, I could have the worst decomposed 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:56.160 body in the world that is down a ravine and 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.200 there's a whole group of them over there saying, dog, 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.280 you don't have to go down on that hill. We've 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.600 you know, we'll send Jim and Bob down there and 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:06.080 we'll you know, we'll fashion this new kind of knot 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:07.920 and we'll put them, you know, put them in the 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.320 basket and we'll bring them up, or we'll dig out 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.000 the hole around this area for you, you know. And 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.800 it was always amazing, and you know, the I'd always 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.200 have friends that were police officers out there, and they 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:21.479 just be kind of standing back because you know, firefighters 0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.880 and cops have this interesting relationship. And the cops were like, 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.280 I'm not going near that. I'm not doing it. You 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.279 know firefighters, you know, of course, the old adage about 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:32.279 them is you know they and when everybody else is 0:04:32.320 --> 0:04:35.840 running away, they're running in right. And so this world 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.240 that around fire has always been terrifying me. You know, 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.960 the only times I've ever been injured at crom scenes 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.480 have been at fire scenes. I've had wow, uh okay, 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:52.080 here's something cool, a little trivia about Morgan. I actually 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:59.560 had a beam fall and strike me in the head 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.400 and it was still on fire. It had at it 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.560 had like a small flame on it, and the whole 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.400 thing had burning embers on it. Wow, completely doused it. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:15.159 I had a nail go through my boot into my foot, 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:18.479 really old pair of boots. By the way, I should 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:23.080 have I should have thrown away. And I actually had 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:27.039 electricity arc off of a puddle of water onto my 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:30.919 foot and I'm not tingling in my leg and I 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.960 fell backwards. It stunned me for a second. And that 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.080 was because there was an electrical line and that hadn't 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:40.119 cut the power yet and they pulled the line down. 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.080 So that's as close to death as I've really come. 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.839 I've had shots fired over my head, but it was not. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.400 There's something about being in that world, that world of 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.960 all that remains of a building, a structure, a car. 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.839 There's kind of this infamous bridge down in New Orleans 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:04.839 called the Huey P. Long Bridge, named after the governor 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:07.000 from back in the thirties and Dave. The scene was 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.680 really narrow. It had two lanes on either side. And 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.880 as a matter of fact, the bridge is this gigantic 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.599 metal structure, steel structure, and their entire families that have 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.479 made their living off of this bridge as sand blasters, 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.880 because the thing always has to be referred And in 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:27.480 the middle of this bridge, going across the river at 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.400 one point in time, there is a train track, and 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:37.800 the train track also consists of the world's longest train trestle, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.000 and it starts way on one side of Mississippi River 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.919 and it continues onto what they call the West Bank. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.720 And I don't know if it's still the longest or not, 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.120 but there was a guy that was in a corvette 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.799 that was driving over the top of it racing somebody 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.560 on the scene, and these lanes are really narrow, and Dave, 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:57.720 he hit the curve on one side and this is 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.880 hundreds of feet in the air above the Mississippi River 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.640 down below. He hit the curb, rolled the thing over 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:08.000 and it's when they had those they were like the 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.240 new total fiberglass bodies on the scene. Well, I got 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.440 there and the whole thing had been engulfed, and it's 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.640 windy up there. It's like really windy, and I thought 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.800 that I thought that everything was out. The fire was doused, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.320 and dude, I got adjacent to the scene and all 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.760 the cops, I mean all the firefighters are wearing respirators, right, 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.840 and they were like looking at me. And I walked 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:33.600 up and I found out why they were wearing respirators, 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:37.440 because this fiberglass was burning in there. And dude, they 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.600 had to take me back and the EMTs had to 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.960 put me on oxygen because I was innolating this scene 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.760 or inhaling I'm sorry, inhaling this gas coming off of 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.960 this or the product coming off of it. It's a 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:55.200 weird world. You walk into any kind of home that 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.240 has been destroyed. And I may have mentioned this before 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.559 on body bags, but you walk in to it, and 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.040 as a death investigator who knows a little bit about 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:09.880 arson very little, I walk into that environment and everything 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:14.920 looks black and charred. I can't make out detail. I've 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:18.400 even lost bodies inside of houses because I can't tell 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.720 where the ceiling that has caved in or the furniture 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.000 that is burned down. I can't delineate between the body 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.920 that is also charged that is in there. It's a 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.240 weird kind of It's the most unique environment that you 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:37.240 ever go into. And people often forget about arson investigators 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.120 as being part of the forensic community. You know, they 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.320 think I don't know what they think about arsen But 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.600 to me, they are at the top of the heap 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.440 because they have to know something about everything. Most of 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:57.160 them are firefighters and cops. They testified. They are top 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:03.319 end experts in their field. They understand chemistry, they understand physics, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:08.480 and they also understand how to run a homicide investigation, 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.280 and so their skill set is something that most people 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:15.360 don't understand, and they are amazed. I love talking to 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.560 them because I learn. I just try to keep my 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:19.680 mouth shut, which is hard for me, keep my eye 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.240 and my ears open and just listen. But you know, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.440 one of the rudimentary things that you have to learn 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:28.600 is kind of the nature of fire. And we don't normally, 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.280 you don't give fire much consideration. You've seen pictures of 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.640 me and my family. We go out even in the 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.760 wintertime on our boat and there's an island not too 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.240 far from where we keep our boat, and we take 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.520 firewood out there and just build a big bonfire and 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:46.319 sit around bonfire. Most people don't think about that. What 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:49.120 is fire? What's the nature of it? You know, kind 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:55.240 of how it works. So fire itself has four components 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.400 to it, and so let me just kind of run 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:00.559 these down to you. You have to have a fuel source, okay, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.240 and sometimes the fuel source can be rolled into what's 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:07.120 also referred to as accelerants. That that's like if you 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.840 let's just say you're using a charcoal grill. All right, Well, 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:16.240 the charcoal in there is fuel, right, but in order 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.720 to initiate that charcoal into a sustainable fire or have 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:22.880 it burned, you have to put lighter fluid on it 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:24.800 most of the time. All right. I know that there's 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.559 the brands out there that say you don't need it, 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.959 but that's how they yeah, they lie. So you get 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.840 it started like that, and so the thing, the thing burns, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.040 But you also have to strike off a match or 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.840 use a lighter to get the thing initiated. Well, you 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:42.400 have to have fuel in order for that to happen. No, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:47.000 it seems simplistic. You have to have heat. And what 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.280 I mean by that is heat is a product of 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.720 an actual burning fire. So that's heat is one of 0:10:52.720 --> 0:10:57.320 the components. You have to have oxygen. Remember how many 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.880 times have we heard about there being a fire in 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:07.480 a location where the fire literally runs out of oxygen 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.200 in the room and completely consumes it and so it dies. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.400 All right, that's the reason. For instance, like with if 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.160 you've ever heard of a halon fire extinguisher that you 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.079 use them on boats, you can't see it. It's it's invisible, 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:26.640 actually really autoerotic case involving halon halon canister as a 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.600 guy was inhaling this stuff, and what it does is 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.120 it binds with the oxygen and it's an oxygen deprivant, 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.280 and so it just knocks the oxygen down. So you 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:40.560 have to have oxygen, all right, and then you have 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:45.520 to have an uninhibited chemical reaction. And this chemical reaction 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:48.520 has to be ongoing. If you think about going to 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:53.200 chemistry class and you're demonstrating and you see this immediate 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.240 reaction where something bubbles over, or you have this reactive 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.839 change in color or whatever you're working on in the lab, 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.440 that's kind of a one off kind of thing. But 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.440 you think about fire, fire is truly an ongoing chemical 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.920 experiment because it has to be sustained and if you're 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.040 absent any of these components, it's going to go out. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.760 I mean, just think about it. Back to the idea 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:23.319 of heat. If a fire dies out is there's an 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:27.000 insufficient amount of heat being generated in order to burn 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.600 the fuel that's existing there. So those are essentially the 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:36.080 four main components of fire, and without that, you don't 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.240 really have a fire per se. Now you might get 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:46.120 like a flashover where an individual might be in a 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.040 room and I've actually had this happen day where they 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.000 come in and arsonist has come in and they spread 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:58.240 gasoline all in a room. And this one particular future 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.680 rocket scientist did this with a couple of gallons of gas. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:04.840 The windows and the doors were closed in the room, 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.040 and this idiot strikes a match and of course it 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:13.520 kills him. But after it burned off, you know, that 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.000 gas that was on the floor and everything, it was 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:20.080 non sustainable. First off, the room that he was in 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.679 had a marble tile floor. Oh, my goodness's not going 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:30.000 to burn. H Yeah, and the ceiling was it had asbestos. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.960 Uh So, I don't know where this guy did his 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.040 research or whatever, but it didn't it didn't burn, you know, 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:40.120 just it was not sustainable, but it killed him. So 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.079 you know, you have to be in a uh this 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:47.480 kind of sustainable environment for it to actually continue to 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:52.440 thrive in this environment because absent that, you're you're not 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:57.719 going to You're just not going to have the end 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.800 product of a fire that is burning before you know where. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.640 You think about sitting around a campfire, and one of 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.360 the some of the most fun you'll ever have at a 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:09.480 campfire is actually taking a piece of wood when it's 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:11.480 beginning to die down and placing the foot on and 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.960 you're sustaining that, You're sustaining that uninhibited chemical reaction and 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.920 it's burning up before you. The fuel is literally vaporizing 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.240 in the air before you. You're receiving heat off of 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:25.480 you're receiving comfort, You're roasting marshmallows, or weenies or whatever 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:26.400 it is that you're doing. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.040 Were you a firebug as a kid? You ain't light 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:31.800 matches in the bathroom. I mean, I'm thinking you're like 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.080 Andrew was man. 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.120 But I just yeah, well maybe Andrew and I your 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.720 son have the commet. I don't know. But have you 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:42.720 ever noticed that fire is a weird thing? And since 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:45.560 that it has almost like a hypnotic effect on it. 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:47.000 Yes, on some people it does. 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.160 You sit there and you just have you ever seen 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.240 anybody at a fireside and they'll just stare at the 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.160 fire and they'll just kind of rock back and forth. 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.840 There were you know, at Christmas time when they put 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.600 the thing on the they run the thing with the 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:03.040 fire burning, and you hear the popping and crackling. I 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:06.240 don't ever, Dave, I promise you. I watched stuff on 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:08.400 my phone. I rarely have ever turned and I've got 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.360 a huge TV in my house. I rarely turned this 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.200 thing on. But yet if that thing's on a Christmas time, 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.360 I'll find myself like in a trance. Just listen to 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.760 Perry Como's sing in the background. 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.200 Those dag blasted chestnuts up and fire man. 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:25.680 Wow. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:28.840 So yeah, so yeah, and it's it's an amazing thing. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:34.760 But here's the rub with fire. Fire does, in fact 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.520 provide us with many of the essentials that we are 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:44.560 depended upon in this life. We couldn't survive without it. Nowadays, 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.040 in modern times, we always have access to it. I 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.800 can't tell you how many spare matchbooks I have in 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.920 my house, and lighters and all these sorts of things. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.320 And you know, if I had to, I could. You know, 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.560 I could take a and I could strike it, and 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.920 I could create a fire. But fire also has one 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:11.040 other element to it. It is arguably the most, if 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:15.200 not one of the most destructive forces in the world. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:17.400 All you got to do is take a look out 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:21.280 west during wild fire season, take a look recently at 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.360 the palisades out there around Malibu in that area, and 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.800 it gives you an idea of what happens when fire 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:49.040 fire inside of control. There are two images from the 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:55.640 Vietnam Era that will always stay with me that I've 0:16:55.640 --> 0:16:57.360 seen in the news, and I know many of you 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.480 guys have. And those images are the young child that's 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.199 running down the road and she doesn't have her clothes on, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:11.560 and she was in a village where her village got 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:17.879 hit with napalm, which is essentially gelaginous gasoline, and it 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.720 doesn't matter what you do, you can't extinguish it as 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.879 a matter of fact that that young girl became a 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:30.199 grown woman and she survived. The other image is of 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.760 the monk that we've seen images of from Southeast Asia 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.560 and protests for peace. He goes into a lotus position 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:42.480 and has poured apparently accelerant all of himself in his 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:47.600 robes and has set himself ablaze and sat there and 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:54.080 never moved and no pun intended. Those images are burned 0:17:54.119 --> 0:18:01.080 into my brain. I can't unsee that when we're in 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:08.520 the world of fire investigation and viewing things from the 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:14.919 perspective of what crime has been committed. Arson itself is 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:19.520 a category that stands alone among all the others because 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:26.320 it's used for a variety of reasons. And you know, 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.280 when you know, obviously the girl in an a pomp 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:32.639 strike that was a product of war, that's not arson. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.720 You have this monk that was doing this in protest, 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:41.240 that's not arson. But it has a level of lethality 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.439 and it has a level of destruction that criminals have 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:48.399 come to appreciate for a long long time now because 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.679 they believe that if they set something to blaze, that 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.679 they're going to eradicate any opportunity for us to collect 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.480 evidence at a scene. And I've often held that if 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:09.760 in fact, you can go back and conduct your investigation thoroughly, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:14.120 they I believe that arsenists leave more evidence behind by 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.919 starting fires. You know, they use particular types of accelerant, 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:25.399 whether it be kerosene, gasoline, fuel oil. I've seen fires 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:32.000 started with electricity, intentionally set phosphorus triggers, all these other 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:35.440 things that are out there, and you're getting into high 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.720 end things, you know, you start talking about electrical fires 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:41.840 that are intentionally set, as opposed to somebody running down 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.280 to the local, you know, stop and rob and getting 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:47.679 a gallon gasoline and coming back home and dows in 0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.240 a place. It's a bit more sophistication involved in that. 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.920 And so arsenists actually come in all shapes and sizes, 0:19:54.960 --> 0:20:01.200 but their motivations are really varied. I mean, you've got 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:05.000 I think most popularly you think about people destroying things 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:08.280 for money, insurance money. They set houses on fire, structures 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.280 on fire, businesses on fire and try to collect off 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.399 of that. Of course, you have in our area and 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.160 depth investigation. You have an individual that is dead inside 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.720 of a house. The house has been, you know, just 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.480 engulfed with flames, and what they're trying to do is 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.399 trying to render down that body so that there's nothing 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.320 left that we can go back and examine. 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.959 It's amazing to me how many times people do that. 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.040 They burn a house down to cover up the murder 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:37.800 of somebody they shot in the head and their recliner, 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.040 and it's like, dude, you realize how long it takes 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:43.800 to render a body down. Things I've learned from Joseph 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.040 Scott Morgan by doing body Bags. It's like, it's not 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.399 going to happen. If you're going to go to crime school, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:51.880 that should be like day three, don't do this. 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.880 Yeah, But yet they persist, don't they. Dave I love 0:20:55.920 --> 0:20:59.200 about Yeah. I mean like you think about you remember 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:01.959 the case Terra Green instead out of yeah idea of Georgia. 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:06.720 We covered that for you and it's not just me names. Yeah, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.719 and you know when they and I remember, I think 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.480 I did an episode of body Bags on that case 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.000 because there was a lot of a lot of static 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.160 about a couple of years ago. But those fellows were 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.760 in court again but anyway, you know, she was found 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:27.600 in an old pecan orchard, uh, down in in South Georgia. 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:31.920 Something I learned about pecan wood at that particular time 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.480 that I was fascinated by that I did not know. 0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:41.439 Uh did you know that next to hickory, pecan is 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:47.680 the hottest burning wood that's out there. And the fact 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:51.679 that they had scraped pecan wood out there, that I 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.359 believed that they used as fuel source for her body. 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:58.040 Because keep in mind, human bodies are not fuel sources, 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.239 all right there, They're not. They make fuel sources. So 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:06.360 it requires you to put the body with a fuel source, 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:09.439 stack fuel source on top of the body, underlay the 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:13.160 body with fuel source, put an accelerant on the body, 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.520 and you begin that process of rendering down a body. 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.680 And Dave, they burned that lady's body for so long 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.159 that they were only able to find little bits of 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.959 her left behind. That was almost a successful attempt at 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:27.560 criminal arson there. 0:22:28.760 --> 0:22:31.680 That case, you know, Joe, that one case with Terry Grinstead. 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:33.360 I'm glad you brought it up because that was one 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:35.760 of those ones where I learned. When you were talking 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:39.200 about the different I didn't I don't know that much 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.440 about a lot of the things we end up talking 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:45.840 about because I'm not learned in that area. But when 0:22:45.880 --> 0:22:48.040 you start studying a case and you start breaking it down, 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.160 and you're going, why did this not work? And why 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.119 did this work? And it's amazing to me how some 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.560 of the stupidest people can come up with the best 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.560 ways and some of the smartest people are so stupid 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:02.480 when it comes to crime. But I will tell you, yeah, 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.040 firing up something I used to think was a good 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:08.040 idea until we started doing this show. I you know, 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:09.760 I'm not a criminal. I'm not going to be burning 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.200 stuff down. I would have thought, you know, hey, if 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:14.399 you're going to ruin your prints and everything else, go 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.240 ahead and light it on fire. But actually you're actually 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.320 may as well pour super glue on it. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.080 Yeah. Yeah, And you're you are creating. That's why I 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:28.359 will say, you're creating, uh, creating more evidence I believe, 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.400 and evidence of And listen, if you go out here's 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:33.399 another big one. And this is kind of a broad 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.960 assertion here, but if you go if you go out 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:43.920 and purchase a gallon of gasoline for this express purpose, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.879 that goes to intent, you know, which is kind of 0:23:46.880 --> 0:23:49.160 the body of a crime. You know you're thinking about 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:51.920 did you intend intend to do this? It's really hard 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:55.760 to explain away while we have you on CCTV taking 0:23:55.920 --> 0:23:58.760 a gallon jug or taking a gallon gas can or 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:01.080 five gallon gas can fill it up with gas when 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.000 you don't normally do that, and then suddenly there's a 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:06.400 blaze in your backyard. You walk out there and there's 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.200 human remains there. So it kind of you know, the 0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:13.400 act of actually doing that, even more so than going 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:15.240 out and buying a gun, because there's a lot of 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.640 reasons you can say, well, I went out and bought 0:24:17.680 --> 0:24:19.520 a gun. I wanted it for a home defense. Maybe 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:21.280 I've had it laying around the house. But you know, 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:23.440 you get a lot of people and I've covered these 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.520 cases where individuals will show up and they'll have in 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.479 the back of their pickup truck several cans that are empty, 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.560 top them off, and go back and it's within just 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:38.280 a short bit of time that they're burning a body. 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:42.879 So you know, you've got this idea of eradication of evidence, 0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:47.600 and yeah, clothing burns away to a great degree, but 0:24:47.680 --> 0:24:50.240 did you know that like when we have bodies that 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:55.600 have been burned, let's you say, just imagine in your mind, 0:24:55.600 --> 0:25:00.199 you've got somebody laying on their back, all right, and 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:03.560 you pour gas all over the anterior or the front 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:10.040 of their body, struck a match, and the antior portion 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.240 of their body envelops in flame. 0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:13.639 Right. 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:19.000 Well, do you know the clothing on the backside many 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:23.160 times is intact. It doesn't just all burn out. I mean, 0:25:23.200 --> 0:25:24.960 just think about it. We talked about oxygen just a 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:28.399 moment ago. Yeah, So if body is in contact with 0:25:28.480 --> 0:25:33.160 the floor or the ground, fire, fire is always going 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:35.840 to seek oxygen, all right, and so it's not going 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.520 to go It might burn for a second if you've 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:41.439 got gas that has kind of leached into the around it, 0:25:41.480 --> 0:25:44.840 but it's not really sustainable. It's not away all of 0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:47.359 the clothing. Clothing is a big part of like getting 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.280 bodies identified, learning where they come from. Also if there's 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:54.880 any trauma, because you know, if you've got somebody who's 0:25:54.920 --> 0:25:59.120 been shot in the back or they've been beaten, you're 0:25:59.119 --> 0:26:03.480 not destroying that evidence, that physical evidence that exists there. 0:26:04.440 --> 0:26:08.399 So when you get these really sophisticated guys. And I 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:10.199 know I've mentioned this book on air again, I'm going 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:11.919 to do it again because I want everybody to read it. 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:16.280 Murdering Cowita County. There was a guy that was murdered 0:26:16.320 --> 0:26:19.520 back in the thirties, I think, or the forties, I 0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:24.800 can't remember, in Georgia. And the guy that facilitated that 0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:29.160 had what he referred to as his hired men, which 0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.919 were these two African American fellows to tend the fire. 0:26:33.760 --> 0:26:37.879 And they constantly pumped wood into this fire pit with 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:40.840 this guy's body in it, and they turned the coals. 0:26:41.119 --> 0:26:43.920 They turned his body in there almost like they're cooking. Wow, 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.199 and the body begins to render down till there was 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:50.040 nothing left but ash. And you know how they retrieved 0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:54.040 in that case, they retrieved what became known in that 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:57.000 specific case, this is a concept in law. You hear 0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:02.359 the term the corpus delecti, which means the body daved. 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:04.280 They found one little chip of bone that was called 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:07.760 an eddy in a creek where they dumped these purlap sacks, 0:27:07.920 --> 0:27:11.280 because they even went to the trouble of taking shovels, 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:15.600 digging out the hole and putting them into the sacks, 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:18.639 going to the creek and dumping the sacks in the 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:22.400 creek and then burning sacks. But that one little bit 0:27:22.400 --> 0:27:25.400 of bone was evidence. And this is before and that's 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:29.240 kind of an assumption, scientific assumption because biologically, back during 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.840 that time, they had no way to tie it back 0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:34.040 to that guy. All they knew is that they had 0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:36.679 a bone or a piece of a bone even but 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:39.320 they used that, and you know, that was the only case. 0:27:39.520 --> 0:27:43.320 That was the first case I think maybe in American 0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:47.840 history where the testimony of an African American man was 0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:52.480 used to put a white man in the electric chair 0:27:52.600 --> 0:27:57.240 and he died. They fried his ass. So yeah, and 0:27:57.280 --> 0:28:00.080 it's kind of a seminal case. So Murton calwieda County. 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:01.919 Ever get a chance read the book. There was a 0:28:01.960 --> 0:28:04.600 movie that was done with Andy Griffith and Johnny Cash 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.920 back in the early eighties. But the book is fantastic 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.640 and it talks about and Fire plays a big part 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:15.960 of that. Then we've got another group that you've heard of, Pyromania, 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:22.680 which is album. Yeah, yeah, it's not that but yeah, yeah, 0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:25.800 Fire Brigades you got it made or whatever it is. 0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:30.760 But yeah, Pyromania is a sexual affectation, you know, where 0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:35.120 they they have this idea that they get gratification from 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:39.120 watching fire. I had mentioned before the show that I 0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:41.080 won't go into all of the details. I was talking 0:28:41.080 --> 0:28:42.560 and I was at a conference one time, and I 0:28:42.600 --> 0:28:45.680 was talking to these investigators and they had mentioned how 0:28:45.720 --> 0:28:51.840 this one fellow that they they had worked this case. 0:28:52.600 --> 0:28:57.400 Fire Battalion responds to a fully engulfed home and there's 0:28:57.480 --> 0:28:59.680 like a family of five burning death in the home. 0:29:00.560 --> 0:29:04.760 And I'll put to you delicately he's standing in the street, 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:08.200 fully nude and fully aroused when they are fixated on 0:29:08.240 --> 0:29:08.600 the fire. 0:29:09.760 --> 0:29:12.360 So you know, did he set the fire, Joe? Do 0:29:12.400 --> 0:29:12.560 you know? 0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:19.760 I mean specifically for his own sexual And so I 0:29:19.840 --> 0:29:22.920 never case. That was just passed on to me from them, 0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:25.880 And I was thinking, you know, I talked about the 0:29:25.880 --> 0:29:29.280 there's no basement in the house. It's just the endless, 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:32.400 it's bottomless. Uh. You think you've seen it all, and 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:35.000 then you know, you get to that point where you 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:39.040 know you haven't, and then other people burn for other reasons. 0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:45.400 You've got, uh, you've got these revenge burnings that take 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:49.120 place where people and these are where you know, I'm 0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:54.400 going to destroy you. I'm going to eradicate everything. I 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:56.520 reflect back, and I know that some of our listeners 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:01.120 will remember, uh this uh, precious child back then that 0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:05.120 his dad and mom were in a we're in a 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:07.800 custody battle and the dad set this kid on fire 0:30:08.600 --> 0:30:13.280 and scarred him for life. And that has happened many 0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:16.840 times over the years. There was the one movie, I 0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:19.120 can't remember which one it was where the lady I 0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:21.720 think it was Angela Bassett. People are going to remember 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:25.320 this movie where you know, she her husband was you know, 0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:27.840 running around on her and she took all of his clothes, 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:30.000 knocked the window out of his Mercedes, put his clothes 0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:32.280 in the car, poured gas in the car, and she 0:30:32.360 --> 0:30:34.760 strikes a match and sets the Mercedes and the clothes 0:30:34.800 --> 0:30:38.720 on fire, you know, in the driveway. So yeah, I 0:30:38.720 --> 0:30:43.560 mean you have you have this idea of revenge as well, 0:30:43.640 --> 0:30:50.120 so concealment of crime, revenge, personal monetary gain. You know 0:30:50.160 --> 0:30:53.640 you can have that. You have people that contract to 0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:56.400 do arson. There are people that are skilled at it, 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:57.120 believe it or not. 0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:00.600 Well, in the movie Goodfellas, it showed you know, the 0:31:00.680 --> 0:31:04.080 guys over there burning the burning the club, remember, yeah, 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:05.080 for insurance money. 0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:10.040 Yeah, absolutely it was. That was Joe Peshi and Henry 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.560 Hill's character did that. I tell you one of the 0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:18.120 most chilling chilling depictions of an arsonist is actually Mickey Rourke. 0:31:18.440 --> 0:31:20.680 And people might not remember this. He played that role 0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:24.120 in the movie Body Heat. Oh wow, William Hurt and 0:31:24.200 --> 0:31:29.000 he gives one of the most chilling resertations on arson 0:31:29.120 --> 0:31:31.320 that you've ever heard, and he really you know, and 0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:33.240 he was depicted as a pro at doing this. And 0:31:33.280 --> 0:31:36.960 there are people that can do this, and they sell 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:40.800 themselves as somebody that can cover up their crimes and 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:43.240 not you know, not be caught by virtue of them. 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.000 They essentially cover all of their bases. But a couple 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:49.440 of things that you're looking for and that we look 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:56.200 for at scenes most of the time with fire with arson, 0:31:56.760 --> 0:32:02.400 is that we'll have individuals that will take, say, for instance, 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.040 and accelerate. And when I say accelerant, just think gasoline 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:07.600 for instance. It can be any number of things. But 0:32:08.000 --> 0:32:11.360 arson investigators look for things like splash patterns. For instance, 0:32:11.400 --> 0:32:17.360 if you take a a bucket of gasoline, uh, and 0:32:17.400 --> 0:32:21.719 you toss it on a wall and uh, you know 0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:25.360 it's a sheet rock wall, gypsum, you strike a match 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:28.160 and you you set it ablaze, Well, did you know 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:31.920 that you can actually those arson investigators can actually follow 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:35.560 the splash pattern on the wall that it'll burn into it. 0:32:35.600 --> 0:32:37.600 You can see it where if you you know, if 0:32:37.600 --> 0:32:40.280 you think about splashing a wall with something, striking a 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:42.960 match and putting it to the wall, you'll see the 0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:46.560 pattern of splash kind of how it And most of 0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:50.080 the time another rule of thumb that we use wherever 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.360 it doesn't happen every time, but wherever you see, particularly 0:32:54.360 --> 0:32:58.160 in a structure, the most damage has occurred, that is 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:01.200 going to point you toward the point of origin of 0:33:01.240 --> 0:33:05.200 the fire because it's burned the longest. You know, unless 0:33:05.240 --> 0:33:07.840 you have like a store of gasoline in the house 0:33:08.640 --> 0:33:13.320 or something that's explosive that does more damage, most of 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.120 the time you're going to have an area that has 0:33:16.200 --> 0:33:20.719 more damage than any other location. Those are just like 0:33:20.800 --> 0:33:22.720 a few of the things you know that you kind 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:26.520 of look for at a fire scene if you're trying, 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:30.960 if they're trying to determine exactly where the point of 0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:35.880 origin is. So source point of origin, what utility did 0:33:35.880 --> 0:33:38.040 they use to start this with? Did they just take 0:33:38.120 --> 0:33:40.479 like old newspapers and pile them up in a corner, 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.400 anything else that's flammable and they set that ablaze. If 0:33:44.440 --> 0:33:47.640 you get in there and you've got furniture that's burned 0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:50.000 in place, but it's all askew, and maybe in one 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:54.040 corner you get an idea when you walk in there that, okay, 0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:58.320 the furniture was actually intended to be the fuel source, 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:01.120 because you know, you're not going to have like your 0:34:01.240 --> 0:34:03.960 lazy boy in a sofa stacked on top of one another. 0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:08.480 And it doesn't matter. I mean, if it catches on fire, 0:34:08.560 --> 0:34:10.960 that's not necessarily going to mean that the lazy boy 0:34:11.040 --> 0:34:13.520 is going to fall off of the sofa. It's going 0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:16.080 to burn in place. Most of the time. Now, the 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:18.480 firefighters might pull it down, but you'll have it all 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:21.919 kind of congregated in that area. You look for those 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:25.720 little cues like that at a scene, and you also 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:29.040 look for position of the body. You know, what is 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.240 it that stands out about a body? If you're dealing 0:34:31.239 --> 0:34:34.080 with a body at a scene, what is it that's 0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:38.040 there that kind of stinks? And I don't mean that literally, 0:34:38.040 --> 0:34:40.759 I mean that in the sense of from an investigative, 0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.600 what is it that just doesn't seem right in this 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:47.239 particular environment. You know, for us in death investigation, we 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:51.600 see what remains of this, We see all that's left behind. 0:34:52.680 --> 0:35:09.040 The big question is who and what started this inferna. 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:19.080 I still have a memory of the first time I 0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:24.359 was ever faced with a burned body in the morgue. 0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:28.440 There's actually two things I said correctly. I remember two 0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:31.600 things that I saw in the morgue related to fire. 0:35:34.040 --> 0:35:37.120 The first one's kind of standard stuff. It was still 0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:40.520 shocking for my young eyes to behold at that time, 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:46.120 because I realized I was looking at a human being 0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:53.680 that had been burned, and it was a homicide and 0:35:53.719 --> 0:35:57.759 a subsequent arson where the structure that they were in 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:00.560 was set on fire after the individual had been shot, 0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:06.000 and the fire had been really, really hot. And my 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:09.960 first reaction was when I saw the body. And I 0:36:10.000 --> 0:36:13.360 mean no disrespect by this, but it looked to me, 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.560 in my untrained eye, it looked like something that had 0:36:17.600 --> 0:36:22.680 fallen off of a grill into the truck overriquets below, 0:36:23.520 --> 0:36:27.480 and it was it was black. The body was black drawn. 0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:34.400 You could barely make out any clothing that remained, no 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:39.840 facial features, hair was all gone, the hands were clawlike. 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:45.640 And I remember looking at that body and it gave 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:50.359 off be perfectly, honestly, it gave off the smell of 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:55.200 burned meat. And I remember I couldn't and this is 0:36:55.239 --> 0:37:00.840 my personal recollection here again, for the longest time, I 0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:07.920 couldn't eat. I couldn't eat grilled meat. I have a 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:09.920 distinct memory of that. And now I was, you know, 0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:13.480 this young virile, you know guy that I loved the steak, 0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:16.040 I loved hamburgers, all that stuff. Still do this day. 0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:18.719 But I got past that. But I remember being kind 0:37:18.760 --> 0:37:21.160 of repulsed by it. That was my first and then 0:37:21.200 --> 0:37:23.960 on top of it, I had to go into that 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.799 body with a scalpel and open the body. And so 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:30.839 because I was the autopsy assistant, and so you kind 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:33.480 of get a double dose of it. Now, if you 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:38.319 can imagine, Dave, even more horrific than that. Was the 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:44.920 first time that I ever assisted in the autopsy on 0:37:45.000 --> 0:37:53.440 an individual that had been burned in a house fire 0:37:54.600 --> 0:37:59.319 and had I'm doing air quotes, had survived for a 0:37:59.400 --> 0:38:03.200 month on the burn unit at a hospital in New Orleans. 0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:08.439 And for any of you out there that have had 0:38:08.719 --> 0:38:11.759 family members that have been burned and been subjected to 0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:17.160 intense heat, you're going to understand what I'm saying. It's 0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:19.600 a real specialty in medicine to be able to deal 0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:25.279 with with burn patients, it's unlike anything else. It's I 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:27.440 guess you get satisfaction from it because you know that 0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:29.880 you're trying to help them, trying to help them move on, 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:34.360 trying to reconstruct their live if they can survive. Because 0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:38.960 it's once, particularly once a certain percentage of your body 0:38:39.000 --> 0:38:42.160 is burned, there's high probability you're no longer going to 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:44.600 be able to fight off all the little nasties that 0:38:44.600 --> 0:38:47.400 are outside trying to attack you. Many folks die of 0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:50.319 sept semia, you know, there's a myriad of things that 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:54.680 they die from. But Dave, I remember this one fellow, 0:38:55.360 --> 0:39:01.440 and he was massive. And when I say massive, he 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:03.920 may at that point when I saw him, may have 0:39:03.960 --> 0:39:06.919 been the biggest body I had ever seen come into 0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:13.480 the autopsy room. So when we were observing him, I 0:39:13.520 --> 0:39:18.080 remember talking to the forensic pathologist and he was saying, 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:19.960 this is what it looks like to be on a 0:39:20.000 --> 0:39:24.440 burn unit, be a patient on a burn unit. And 0:39:24.760 --> 0:39:28.279 we had the reports before us in life. This guy 0:39:28.280 --> 0:39:32.960 had been one hundred and eighty five pounds, so he 0:39:33.239 --> 0:39:38.799 had been in the burn unit for a month. And 0:39:39.239 --> 0:39:42.040 what happens is many times these people go into renal 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:50.160 failure and they can't outprocess fluids and he was so swollen. Dave, well, 0:39:51.640 --> 0:39:55.799 along with the swelling, what has to happen because the 0:39:55.880 --> 0:40:02.200 skin on these individuals actually splits, so in advance of that, 0:40:03.520 --> 0:40:08.240 the surgeon will come in and they make these linear 0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:11.440 incisions in the body and they're all over the body. 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:15.319 You've never seen the like of it. It is. It 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:18.719 rivals anything I've ever seen in the autopsy room. And 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:21.560 they will make these surgical incisions that are rather lengthy, 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.239 all over the surface of the skin because if they 0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:27.800 don't the skin on its own because of the tension 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.720 and the retention of water and fluid in the body, 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:35.759 they will begin to split open. So they have to 0:40:35.840 --> 0:40:40.040 make incisions all over the body to try to stem that, 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:44.840 and eventually the body just it cannot it cannot function 0:40:46.280 --> 0:40:50.400 to a point where it's a survival event. Survivable event, 0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:54.359 and they're going to be They're going to die. And 0:40:56.440 --> 0:40:59.120 many people I always have this question, and it doesn't 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:05.800 necessarily revolve around fire related death, but you have these 0:41:05.880 --> 0:41:10.080 events where people will say, well, they were in the 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:13.759 hospital for a long time, why did you have to 0:41:13.760 --> 0:41:18.040 do an autopsy? Well, yes, you're absolutely right. The injuries 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:23.799 are documented. Everything has been X rayed and photographed, and 0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:27.000 you've got the treatment records, surgical records we've got in 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:29.279 case of burn victims, we've got every time a skin 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:33.040 graft has been attached. I mean, just it's voluminous. There's 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.000 always charting going on. But we're still going to do 0:41:35.040 --> 0:41:37.600 the autopsy. The reason we're still going to do the 0:41:37.640 --> 0:41:42.839 autopsy is that this is a homicide. This is a homicide. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:46.120 And if you don't do the autopsy, even if a 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:49.360 person's been in the hospital for a protracted period of time, 0:41:50.400 --> 0:41:54.799 when the thing goes to court, a defense attorney will 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:56.480 look at this and say, well, how do we know 0:41:56.520 --> 0:42:01.400 what really killed this individual? You're se that just based 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:04.040 on the doctor's notes here that it's a you know that, 0:42:04.160 --> 0:42:07.719 yeah they got burned, but yet you didn't do an autopsy. 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:10.480 How can you prove that? And you kind of head 0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:13.560 that off at the past by having a forensic pathologist 0:42:13.640 --> 0:42:15.799 look at not just the records, but actually taking a 0:42:15.840 --> 0:42:20.520 look at the at the body, uh in total there 0:42:20.560 --> 0:42:25.040 in the autopsy room. And for me, for me, it 0:42:25.120 --> 0:42:29.279 was it. It stuck with me that first body that 0:42:29.360 --> 0:42:31.279 I saw a lot of them after that but that 0:42:31.320 --> 0:42:34.640 first body that I saw that came off of a 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:37.240 burn unit that had been treated for a protracted period 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:41.200 of time, it stuck with me, you know, it really 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:45.160 it made me think it was It was one of 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:47.920 those cases where when you look at the individual and 0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:50.480 I don't think about this a lot where I go 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:53.759 around saying, I hope they didn't suffer. A lot of 0:42:53.760 --> 0:42:57.560 families say that, and you don't really know if people suffer. 0:42:57.640 --> 0:42:59.640 But I look at that and that's one of the 0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:03.319 cases where you think, I hope they I hope they 0:43:03.320 --> 0:43:08.000 weren't aware of this because it's so it was so 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:11.879 grotesque and horrible, you know, when you see this, and 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:16.239 I've that that part of me within me, and I 0:43:16.239 --> 0:43:19.680 don't think I'm I'm not being sadistic when I say this. 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.000 That's one of the reasons I think that people that 0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:28.759 have murdered others need to be present for autopsies. And 0:43:28.800 --> 0:43:32.120 I know that it's not legally possible, you know, because 0:43:32.239 --> 0:43:37.640 people are presumed innocent until proven guilty, But you want 0:43:37.719 --> 0:43:41.600 people that have done great harm to individuals to understand 0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:44.759 what happens to subjects. And when you see somebody that's 0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:50.080 burned like this, subjected to severe heat, intense heat. It 0:43:50.160 --> 0:43:52.719 really gives you pause. It's like you want that individual 0:43:52.800 --> 0:43:55.960 to see what they have done because they're not going 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:57.920 to go through this. Their family is not going to 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:00.640 go through this. And it's really, you know, really throws 0:44:00.680 --> 0:44:03.920 up the stops on in your spirit. You know, it's 0:44:04.000 --> 0:44:05.719 so over the top. Dave. 0:44:06.320 --> 0:44:10.080 But Joe, what about the term burned to death. 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:15.279 We've heard that said by people on you know, talk 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:18.319 shows that you know, on crime that the body that 0:44:18.360 --> 0:44:19.560 the person burned to death. 0:44:19.840 --> 0:44:22.320 And that's not true, is it? In most cases? 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:24.759 In most cases it's not. Now you have, like I 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:27.480 just gave you the example. I gave everybody example of 0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:31.840 the person that's on the burn unit. They most of 0:44:31.880 --> 0:44:35.880 the time when you have a homicide or let's just 0:44:35.880 --> 0:44:38.479 say it's an accidental death, let's just don't let's don't 0:44:38.480 --> 0:44:42.120 necessarily say homicides. Let's just say an accidental death as 0:44:42.680 --> 0:44:49.799 related to to fire. Most people do not burn to 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:55.600 a crisp and die like that. Okay, that's not how 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:57.920 it necessarily works. It's not like the last scene in 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:00.920 the original Raiders Lost arc, you know, where people are 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:03.799 incinerating and that sort of thing. By the presence of 0:45:03.800 --> 0:45:06.120 God coming out of the ark of the Covenant. 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:08.200 So that was not a documentary, Is that what you're 0:45:08.239 --> 0:45:08.560 telling me? 0:45:08.840 --> 0:45:13.680 That was not a documentary. Most people in our world 0:45:13.760 --> 0:45:20.480 that are subjected to a fire an environment involving fire, 0:45:20.520 --> 0:45:22.920 are going to die as a result of smoke inhalation 0:45:23.400 --> 0:45:28.399 almost I'd say probably ninety nine percent, maybe not that many, 0:45:28.480 --> 0:45:33.000 ninety five percent of those deaths. And it causes from 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:37.120 inhaling those bits that are in the air and you're 0:45:37.120 --> 0:45:41.919 not it's not like you're just inhaling smoke. Most people 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:46.719 don't understand the component smoke is a product of things 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:50.040 burning up. It's actually this, it's actually one of the 0:45:50.080 --> 0:45:55.280 sub components of fire. You're talking about when fuel is vaporized. Okay, 0:45:55.360 --> 0:45:59.439 So when it's vaporized and extends out that if you're 0:45:59.480 --> 0:46:02.359 in that vironment, you're you know, you're trying to get 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:03.880 your breath. What did they always tell us when we 0:46:03.880 --> 0:46:05.480 were kids, if there was a house fire, you're supposed 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:07.200 to go. You're supposed to do what you're supposed to 0:46:07.760 --> 0:46:11.240 go to the floor and crawl along the floor because 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:13.880 that's where the remaining oxygen is. All that stuff floating 0:46:13.920 --> 0:46:16.000 up in the air, and they're absolutely right, is toxic. 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:19.120 So it's not and this is not if you're let's 0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:21.000 just say you're in a house, or you could be 0:46:21.040 --> 0:46:24.839 inside of a car. All of those elements within that 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:29.600 car which are man made, really let that hang there 0:46:29.640 --> 0:46:33.480 in a second that our man made are going to 0:46:33.560 --> 0:46:37.200 in dwell that environment and they're going to burn. And 0:46:37.280 --> 0:46:39.239 remember how we said earlier on when I was talking 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:45.480 about an uninhibited chemical reaction. Well, if if you've got 0:46:45.840 --> 0:46:49.240 like carpet, okay, you've got some kind of synthetic carpet 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:51.759 in a house and it's burning, did you know that 0:46:51.800 --> 0:46:55.239 one of the major components of carpet is petroleum. It's 0:46:55.320 --> 0:46:58.160 petroleum based, and so how do you how does all 0:46:58.160 --> 0:47:02.200 that bound together? Well, it's very complex chemically, all right. 0:47:02.280 --> 0:47:05.719 So once you once heat is subjected to that, you 0:47:05.840 --> 0:47:07.960 kind of free all that stuff up that's in the 0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:10.839 carpet and all of a sudden it's floating around the air. Dave. 0:47:10.880 --> 0:47:13.520 You can find things like arsenic floating around, you know, 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:17.360 in this environment. So when you get when you get 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:22.759 you know, people breathing in and a fire, you'll see 0:47:22.800 --> 0:47:26.600 these components on their toxicology that are coming back and 0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:29.879 it's amazing. It's this litany, this list of stuff that's 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:31.919 kind of free floating around in their blood that they've 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:36.239 taken on. Not to mention the absence of actual breathable 0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:39.719 oxygen in the environment. One of the main components that 0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:42.960 we're looking for, though, you know that's going to lead 0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:46.800 to death, is going to be you know, carbon monoxide asphyxiation. 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:57.160 It literally turns the body cherry pink. The skin is pink, 0:47:57.920 --> 0:48:01.200 nail beds are pink, the eyes are pink. You open 0:48:01.320 --> 0:48:05.440 up the body, the viscera, the organs have a pink hue. 0:48:05.520 --> 0:48:08.239 The blood when you draw it out, it looks like 0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:11.720 the only way I've been able to describe it to people, 0:48:11.760 --> 0:48:17.799 think about a manufactured piece of candy that's like this 0:48:19.080 --> 0:48:23.319 brilliant pink color that was created in a lab. The 0:48:23.360 --> 0:48:25.480 first candy that comes to me. I used to love 0:48:25.520 --> 0:48:27.719 these on us kids were not now laters or what 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:29.880 they're called, and they're kind of hard taffy, and there 0:48:29.920 --> 0:48:32.440 was a pink one in there. That's what the viscera 0:48:32.560 --> 0:48:36.240 looks like. Throughout the body. The blood is even that color, 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:40.160 and the carbon monoxide turns the blood absent the oxygen 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:44.840 that color. So if we see that color manifesting itself 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:47.879 just visually, we don't. We're going to run a test. 0:48:47.880 --> 0:48:51.680 It's called a carboxy hemoglobin level. But when you see 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:55.360 that pink, automatically, the alarm bell goes off, and you 0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:59.799 know that this person has inhaled carbon monoxide along with 0:49:00.080 --> 0:49:02.600 this myriad of other things you know, in the environment, 0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:06.359 and it's noncompatible with life. The balance gets so out 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:09.840 of whack because we require a certain amount of oxygen, 0:49:10.239 --> 0:49:12.520 and you know, we don't live in a pure oxygen 0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:15.359 environment anyway. You know, people talk about the oxygen air 0:49:15.360 --> 0:49:19.200 and yeah, it's there, but you're breathing in these other components. 0:49:19.200 --> 0:49:21.440 All you know, there's an ron out there, there's carbon 0:49:21.520 --> 0:49:25.319 dioxide that you're rebreathing sometimes, you know, plants take up 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:28.000 carbon dioxide, they produce oxygen and that sort of thing, 0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:30.280 and so all these elements are kind of floating around. 0:49:30.320 --> 0:49:32.160 But it's sustainable with life when you get in that 0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:37.480 closed environment like a home and you're literally swimming in 0:49:37.520 --> 0:49:40.600 a chemical experiment at this point in time, and the 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:42.800 fire that's in there is like the bunting burner you 0:49:42.840 --> 0:49:46.000 would have in a lab, only it's visible you're in 0:49:46.040 --> 0:49:48.480 the midst of it, and you're trying to gasp for 0:49:48.600 --> 0:49:52.720 air and there's nothing really left for you to grab 0:49:52.800 --> 0:49:58.279 hold of to breathe, that sort of thing, And as 0:49:58.440 --> 0:50:02.279 heat increases a around the body, most of the time 0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:05.760 the person is going to die within a few minutes, 0:50:06.640 --> 0:50:10.359 and there is an awareness if you don't, don't try 0:50:10.400 --> 0:50:14.520 to shade yourself into this idea that there's no awareness 0:50:14.520 --> 0:50:17.440 that you're dying. I mean, if anybody has ever struggled 0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:19.480 with breathe, if you've ever had pneumonia or anything like, 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:21.719 you know what it's like to be shorter breath. If 0:50:21.760 --> 0:50:23.279 you ever had a heart event, you know what it's 0:50:23.320 --> 0:50:26.080 like to be shorter breath. Same principle here, there's an 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:28.920 awareness it's a horrible way to die because your body 0:50:28.960 --> 0:50:31.800 is your brain is screaming, I need oxygen, I need oxygen. 0:50:32.360 --> 0:50:35.560 So when they finally die, then comes to heat. And 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.239 I think that that's where this idea that people say, well, 0:50:38.280 --> 0:50:40.680 they burn to death, and it's kind of convenient to 0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:45.440 say that because you've got a fire, You've got this 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:50.200 event that occurs where the house is caving in around them. 0:50:50.239 --> 0:50:53.359 They're surrounded by intense flames, and people think they burn 0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:57.120 to death. There are cases where people have literally been 0:50:58.160 --> 0:51:00.960 had gasoline thrown all over the Hey, there was just 0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:03.759 a case, remember day back in Virginia last week, that 0:51:03.840 --> 0:51:07.400 house and the representative in Virginia. The guy walks up 0:51:07.440 --> 0:51:10.560 with a bucket a gasoline, throws it on the sky 0:51:10.640 --> 0:51:12.520 and flips a match on him and strikes a lighter 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:15.839 or whatever this nut job does and set this guy 0:51:15.920 --> 0:51:19.840 on blaze. This poor guy, I don't at this moment, Thomas, 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:21.920 we're talking right now. I don't know what his status is. 0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:24.040 I pray for him and his family. I hope he's okay. 0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:26.560 But he was talking, you know, when he left. But 0:51:27.120 --> 0:51:29.480 you know, he's on the burn unit somewhere, and this 0:51:29.560 --> 0:51:31.440 is a this is gonna be a long uphill battle 0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:34.840 for him. But he But go ahead, David, I'm sorry. 0:51:35.200 --> 0:51:37.799 I was going to ask you about Mercedes Vega. Yeah, 0:51:37.840 --> 0:51:40.880 out in Arizona, Americopa County. It was one of the 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:43.640 stories that you had sent and I thought, if we 0:51:43.760 --> 0:51:48.760 could just briefly if she's an exotic dancer, right, yeah, 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:52.720 and they find her on the highway. 0:51:53.520 --> 0:51:56.080 Yeah, in the car. Yeah, a car in the car 0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:57.600 is a blaze at that point. 0:51:57.520 --> 0:52:02.879 Right now, if you find a car where the body inside, yeah, 0:52:03.000 --> 0:52:05.200 I'm going to assume that the person was not there 0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:06.280 of their own free will. 0:52:06.880 --> 0:52:09.480 Yeah, wrong assumption if you're an investigator. 0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:09.840 But I'm not. 0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:13.960 I'm a journalist, So I'm just thinking out loud. How 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.640 do you go into that where as an investigator, you're 0:52:16.680 --> 0:52:19.879 looking at a dead body in a car murder, suicide, 0:52:20.360 --> 0:52:23.239 accidental death? I mean yeah, I mean, can you be 0:52:23.280 --> 0:52:25.520 overcome with smokes that you couldn't get yourself out of it? 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:26.600 Can it happen that fast? 0:52:26.800 --> 0:52:30.000 I think that, Well, that's an excellent question. I think 0:52:30.040 --> 0:52:32.480 that the circumstances would have to be just right. Say, 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:35.640 for instance, if you've got a fire that starts, let's 0:52:35.640 --> 0:52:37.480 just say it's an accidental fire. There are people that 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:40.120 die in car accidents as a result of a fire 0:52:40.200 --> 0:52:44.640 catching a car, a vehicle car fire, and it's like, 0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:47.160 and this is really horrible. I didn't talk about these, 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:51.319 but you have what are called entrapment fires where a 0:52:51.320 --> 0:52:54.319 person can't get free of the car. You've got like 0:52:54.520 --> 0:52:58.320 maybe engine block intrusion, the line, the fuel line gets clipped, 0:52:58.360 --> 0:53:01.600 it sparks off, and the is literally sitting there and 0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:04.040 now in those cases, there have been those cases where 0:53:04.040 --> 0:53:08.560 individuals literally do burn to death. But in her case, 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.359 where you have a body that's found in a car 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:18.000 and the car and the body are both burning, when 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:20.840 I hear hoof beats, I'm not gonna think camel Okay, 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:25.920 I'm pretty much gonna think that this individual has probably 0:53:26.080 --> 0:53:29.399 sustained some kind of lethal injury and the people that 0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:33.880 perpetrated this wanted to burn the car up in order 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:37.920 to get away with it. So with her her case 0:53:38.120 --> 0:53:42.359 in particular, I think that it's important to understand that 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:47.400 when they would do an examination, the ideal circumstances to 0:53:47.480 --> 0:53:50.520 do this examination would be not to remove her from 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:54.600 the car. Not to remove from the car, you would 0:53:55.000 --> 0:53:57.960 the idea would be to take the car with her 0:53:58.000 --> 0:54:02.600 body in it, put it onto the back of a 0:54:02.680 --> 0:54:07.600 flatbed like a wreckord flatbed, tarp it up covered tarps, 0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:09.840 and take it to the crime lab and process the 0:54:09.880 --> 0:54:11.160 car with the body in it. 0:54:11.680 --> 0:54:13.600 Have yeah on side. Note, have you ever had a 0:54:13.600 --> 0:54:17.600 tarp fall off? Let's see, I heard about it. 0:54:17.680 --> 0:54:20.480 No, I have not had that happen. I've never had 0:54:20.480 --> 0:54:23.680 that happen. I have heard of cases non associated with 0:54:23.760 --> 0:54:27.120 offices that I that I'm aware of where the flap 0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:29.720 part of the flap came loose and it's like blowing 0:54:29.760 --> 0:54:31.480 in the wind as it's going down. You have to 0:54:31.520 --> 0:54:35.799 be very very careful because yeah, it would be There 0:54:35.840 --> 0:54:38.440 have been cases. There was a famous case that I'm 0:54:38.440 --> 0:54:40.200 aware of. I think it was in South Georgia where 0:54:41.160 --> 0:54:45.560 delivery service actually failed to secure the rear door and 0:54:45.600 --> 0:54:50.520 the body on the body gurney came out of the 0:54:50.560 --> 0:54:53.080 back of the car and came out of the back 0:54:53.120 --> 0:54:54.600 of it was a it was a hearse but it 0:54:54.640 --> 0:54:57.080 was a van, a van Hearst, you know that was 0:54:57.120 --> 0:55:00.239 operator as a private contractor, rolled out into the the 0:55:00.320 --> 0:55:02.600 highway in turned over and then a car ran over 0:55:02.640 --> 0:55:05.880 the body. It hit it. So you have to be 0:55:06.080 --> 0:55:08.520 very very You have to treat not just from an 0:55:08.520 --> 0:55:13.520 evidentiary standpoint, but for the dead and their family. You 0:55:13.600 --> 0:55:16.520 have to make sure that you're treating these bodies with 0:55:16.600 --> 0:55:20.520 the utmost respect. Particularly, I mean the body. The person 0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:23.640 that that body represents has gone through enough. The family 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:26.759 will soon be going through enough once they're notified of this. 0:55:27.360 --> 0:55:30.880 But we do know this, We do know that the 0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:33.640 body holds a lot of evidence that you have to 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:38.000 be able to assess you want to get the body 0:55:38.040 --> 0:55:44.319 into a prime, ideal set of circumstances. One of the 0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:48.560 interesting things that we see with fire deaths. Have folks 0:55:48.680 --> 0:55:52.880 asked me about this a lot. Had One lady tellm 0:55:52.920 --> 0:55:55.520 asked me, She said, how was that? She phrased it 0:55:55.560 --> 0:56:00.400 to me one time she said, what's boxing got to 0:56:00.440 --> 0:56:04.680 do with fire? And I didn't I didn't register with 0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:08.040 me what she was saying. And I was at a conference, 0:56:09.200 --> 0:56:13.480 like a true crime thing, and we talked about it, 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:17.239 and she had said, I've heard that their bodies move 0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:19.759 in fire. I was like, oh, you're talking about the 0:56:19.800 --> 0:56:25.000 pugilistic position. And so as a body is subjected to fire, 0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:29.919 and you can't really draw any conclusions of scientific conclusions 0:56:30.440 --> 0:56:33.880 like were they alive versus dead when the fire started? 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:38.480 All bodies are going to do this, But the bodies 0:56:38.800 --> 0:56:42.000 at the joints, even at the hip flexers, the knees, 0:56:42.120 --> 0:56:45.680 the feet, the elbows, the hands, it's all going to 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:49.959 draw up and the back years ago when they began 0:56:50.040 --> 0:56:53.440 to see this, the powers that be looked at this 0:56:53.560 --> 0:56:56.480 and said, wow, that looks just like a pugilism. And 0:56:56.480 --> 0:56:59.359 of course pugilism is the old term for boxing. And 0:56:59.400 --> 0:57:01.960 so when you'll get these people that have their hands 0:57:02.640 --> 0:57:06.799 that will clinch, their hands will clinch and they'll draw up. 0:57:08.560 --> 0:57:11.560 I'm going to conclude this episode of body Bags with 0:57:11.600 --> 0:57:13.360 something I don't normally do. I'm going to tell a 0:57:13.360 --> 0:57:18.640 story real quick and you can actually see it. It's 0:57:18.680 --> 0:57:23.240 in the first chapter of my book Blood Beneath My Feet. 0:57:23.320 --> 0:57:25.240 And I was really at the end of my career. 0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:31.400 I had had enough and was really struggling with PTSD 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:35.880 and these things that I was going through. And one 0:57:36.000 --> 0:57:39.440 night I was in the middle of Georgia four hundred 0:57:39.560 --> 0:57:41.440 and I worked a case of a young man that 0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:44.400 was in a Ford ranger. He slammed into a bridge 0:57:44.440 --> 0:57:49.439 abutment and it was pouring down rain. His car had 0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:54.000 caught on fire and he was entrapped. As I'm trying 0:57:54.960 --> 0:57:57.760 to work the case and examine his body, something happened 0:57:57.760 --> 0:58:00.360 to me that changed the course of my life and 0:58:00.400 --> 0:58:04.720 certainly my career that day. As the rain kind of 0:58:04.800 --> 0:58:07.720 dripped down off of my face and down my glasses, 0:58:07.760 --> 0:58:11.120 I couldn't see real well. I leaned into the cab 0:58:11.760 --> 0:58:14.760 and this young man was entrapped and he had burned 0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:18.880 to death. In his car, and as I reached over 0:58:19.360 --> 0:58:23.520 tried to detect if his seat belt was buckled, his 0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:29.600 left hand brushed my right cheek, and instinctively I reached up, 0:58:30.360 --> 0:58:34.240 grabbed the wrist of this clawed hand, and it snapped off. 0:58:34.280 --> 0:58:40.400 In mind, I stat there in the rain. No one 0:58:40.400 --> 0:58:42.760 else is with me, cops are off doing their thing, 0:58:42.920 --> 0:58:45.280 and I considered what I was holding in my hand, 0:58:45.360 --> 0:58:48.000 just for a second, this burned claw that was left behind. 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:52.120 I walked off into the night. I sat beneath the 0:58:52.160 --> 0:59:00.919 bridge and I wept, shaking uncontrollably, asking myself what the world, 0:59:01.520 --> 0:59:04.720 what was I doing? Why was I here? That was 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:10.000 after a twenty year career, and that night my life changed. 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:13.040 It changed because I knew that I could no longer 0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:16.320 do this. And fire played a big role in that 0:59:16.520 --> 0:59:19.200 stop sign. We all have stop signs in our lives, 0:59:19.240 --> 0:59:24.160 don't we, Those warning signs that pop up in a 0:59:24.200 --> 0:59:28.360 case like this involving fire was my stop sign, and 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:32.120 pretty soon thereafter I had to give it up. I 0:59:32.200 --> 0:59:35.800 had to hang it up. So fire will always be 0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:38.600 part of who I am. It will always be part 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:41.600 of those things I talk about. It will always be 0:59:41.680 --> 0:59:48.240 part of the stories of the Dead. I'm Joseph Scott 0:59:48.320 --> 0:59:50.960 Morgan and this is body Backs.