WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: John Oates 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.000 Quest. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:14.160 Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode this time this 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:14.800 really is. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.880 A special episode of course, Love Supreme. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.400 We have our Team Supreme with us. This is going 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:20.840 to be a. 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:27.800 Special being kind of an instant too parter, I will 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:36.640 save that our guest today simply not only accomplished musician, singer, songwriter, 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.440 but in my opinion, he is hands down one half 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:45.479 of one of the most successful duos of all time 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:51.120 in the modern rocket era. He'll popularize the burgeoning blue 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:54.280 eyed soul movement of the late sixties and early seventies 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.640 and into the future from my native town in Philadelphia, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.680 along with his partner Daryl Hall, who incidentally will have 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:04.479 his own episode to himself as well. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:06.679 I want to preface. 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.080 By saying that usually, uh, when we have guests on 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.080 the show, I kind of like the one on one thing, 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.280 just like one artist for Team Supreme. I know it's 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.000 been easier to have a group aesthetic, but I feel 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:22.760 like you get more in depth stories when it's one 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.920 on one. And I'm not being a smart like by 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.160 referencing one of their classic songs, but in. 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:35.760 My game to night Eaginal man that when that was 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:36.280 the NBA. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:38.640 Do you remember a certain age when that was the 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:39.880 NBA theme song? 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:40.839 When when they had. 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:44.600 That who you don't remember this? 0:01:45.480 --> 0:01:46.600 What man? Yo? 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:49.280 One on one they there was a promo they cut 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.320 and it would be like, you know, you see bird 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.440 and magic like you know, playing this motion and it 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.480 was one on one. They cut it on one on one. 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:59.040 That ship was amazing. 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:00.560 They used it for the old started game. 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:01.559 John. 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.840 Where are you right now as we speak? I'm in Nashville, Okay, 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.480 And this is your home home? 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:10.800 Well, yeah, we still have a place out in Colorado 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:13.280 where we lived for about twenty five years in the 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:16.400 nineties into the two thousands. But yeah, we've been here 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.920 now for about almost fifteen years. And yeah, it's a 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.000 great place to make music. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:26.639 See I see. So when were your Philly days over? 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:29.840 Oh? Man, you know that was a long long time ago. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:33.040 I think Daryl and I both moved to New York 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:38.639 together in nineteen seventy two, and that's when we got 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.520 our Atlantic Records contract and we made our first album 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.880 in New York at Atlantic Records. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.040 The one Top produced. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.480 No No No, This is a Reef Martin Oh wow. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:53.799 A Reef produced our first two albums, an album called 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.000 holl Oats, which hardly anybody knows about, and then the 0:02:57.040 --> 0:02:59.520 album Abandon Luncheonette, which is kind of the one that 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.040 I think most people think is our first album was 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:06.040 a second but Arif Martin produced both those and we 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:08.520 couldn't have been in better hands. One of the greatest 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.720 producers of all time, and was he was. He surrounded 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:14.920 us with the greatest musicians in New York City and 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:16.480 it was an amazing experience. 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:24.000 So, you know, having you on the show is special 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:28.680 for me at least because even though we had Todd 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.760 on the show, I feel like I'm going to get 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:37.600 way better mid to late sixties Philadelphia music community stories 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.120 that otherwise my dad wouldn't have been able to tell 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:45.440 me about, or you know, a lot of cats and 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.440 that I've always wanted to know these stories about the 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:54.520 music scene in Philly, especially right before Gamble and Huff 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:55.600 started their empire. 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.480 Always been curious about that sort of thing. Were you 0:03:58.520 --> 0:03:59.480 born in Philadelphia? 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:01.880 I was actually born in New York City. My family 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.040 was from New York, but when my father's job was 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:10.960 relocated to Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia in nineteen I'm going 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.160 to date myself. But hey, you all know, I'm old self. 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:18.240 It doesn't matter fifty nineteen, fifty four, fifty three or 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.200 fifty four. And so we moved in the whole. We 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:23.599 moved our family, The rest of my the rest of 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:26.680 our extended family stayed in the New York area. But no, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.120 so essentially, even though I was born in New York, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.400 you know, I was such a little kid. I grew 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.119 up in Pennsylvania, in the Philadelphia area. 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:39.440 Okay, And what part of Philly were you in Pennsylvania? 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:41.920 Well, it was a little town called North Wales, which 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:45.839 was near Lansdale Dale. It was about twenty miles north 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:46.600 of Philadelphia. 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:51.160 Okay. Cool. Do you know what your first musical memory was? 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.839 I sure do, I absolutely do. Right after we moved 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.200 to Pennsylvania, there was a place not too far away 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.000 called Willard Grove Amusement Park. Okay, And now it was 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.240 an air base as well, but anyway, at the time, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.080 it was an amusement park. And my folks took me 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:13.000 there and Bill Haley and the Comets were playing in 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.240 the band show. And I don't know if you remember, 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:20.240 but Bill Haley was from Camden, of course, and so 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.200 I was like I was probably four maybe, And of course, 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.760 you know, I had had this musical sensibility at the time, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.080 even though I was a little kid. And I remember 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:31.280 running down to the stage. It was a band show, 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:34.800 so the stage was only maybe two feet high, and 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.160 I remember being this little kid and I ran right 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.520 down to the band shell. And I remember the bass player, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.599 the upright bass player. At one point in the show, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.320 he rode his bass like a horse, and I thought 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.080 that was the most amazing things I'd ever seen. And 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.240 that actually the first live music I ever heard was 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.680 Rock around the Clock. And you know Bill Haley. 0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:01.159 And the Comets really so they were just performing at the. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.920 They were in the they were performing at the amusement park. 0:06:02.960 --> 0:06:07.039 Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I believe that 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:12.760 I too saw a latter day Bill Haley beforemat Then 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.200 we used to we we had something called the Steel Pier. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.560 Oh. Yeah, I played at the Steel Pier. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:20.440 Yeah, the Steel Pier in a Lank city. It was 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:21.760 a Lank city, right or wild. 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.960 Wood Yep, No, it was in Atlantic City. And when 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.880 I was a really little kid, around five or six, 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:30.520 I sang at something called Tony Grant Stars of Tomorrow 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.360 which was a kitty uh talent show at the Steel Pier. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.400 In my dating myself, I had mentioned the word Al 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.240 alberts Where you do you remember the Al alberts O 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:41.880 case at all? 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.200 Yeah, yeah, it was. It was around that time, and 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.960 there was a guy and it was actually before Dick 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.719 Clark took over Bandstand and it was what was his name? 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:53.960 There was a different host before Dick Clark, but it 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:55.880 was during that period of time. It was in the 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.280 mid fifties. 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.440 And uh so you you were there for like the 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.160 the do Op era of Philadelphia. 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.680 Yeah, Duop and Jerry Blavett and all that stuff. Jerry 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.200 Blavett was a big hero of mine. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.400 Yeah, the radio show that he used to do from 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:14.920 I think it was from Trenton where he'd play all 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:18.640 B sides and man, I heard, you know, songs like 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.520 Biolah by the Versatnes and you know, and Guided Missiles 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:24.760 and you know these. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:27.880 Songs that were just unbelievable and you know your your 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:30.280 your father man Lee Andrews and the Hearts. Man, I 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:34.400 mean you know, tick tick tick in the clock a 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:35.720 league got it? 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.000 That's that's so dope. 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.440 So okay, during that period, I'm assuming that you're a teenager. 0:07:45.560 --> 0:07:49.240 Like for you, like when did you know? What was 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.440 your moment of or your calling of knowing that you 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:54.440 were going to be a musician? 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.520 Like how old were you? And was guitar always your 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.200 weapon of choice? I was? 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.080 I just had I guess I had musical talent when 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.520 I was a little little kid. You know, I would sing. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.000 I would sing these little songs. In fact, I have 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.280 a recording of me singing a little children's nursery song 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.720 that was done at Coney Island in one of those 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.559 record booths, you know where you go into the booth 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:18.760 and you put some money in and you'd sing and 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.400 the little record would come out. I still have that record. 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:23.480 I did that when I was like four or five 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.000 years old, and then I started playing guitar at seven. 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.760 I originally started on accordion because they were the only 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:33.080 music teacher in this little town where we lived, was 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.240 an accordion teacher. But I hated it, and then I 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:38.760 played I started playing guitar at about seven or eight, 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:40.360 and I was it. 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:41.920 You play accordion? 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.200 No? 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.079 I mean if you were to pick it up, now, 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:47.679 would you be? 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.520 I could fumble around on it, but but what happened 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.760 was seriously my mother just thought. My mom said, you 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.680 know he take some music lessons. Well, the only teacher 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.040 was an accordion teacher, and you know he was doing 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.520 all that Pennsylvani and you you know, polka stuff, that 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.200 kind of stuff, and so, I mean I hated it. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.400 I literally I remember it. Used to sit in the closet. 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.760 And then I think I took two or three lessons, 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.240 and finally on the third lesson, the teacher went, he's 0:09:14.240 --> 0:09:16.520 not practicing. I said, I hate this. I'm not doing it. 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.280 And I said, I want to get a guitar. So 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:20.000 I got a guitar and I started there. 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.360 Okay, how old were you when you got your guitar? 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:24.360 About seven? 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:30.080 Okay, do you remember the first album that you yourself purchased. 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.520 I didn't purchase an album at the first. I purchased singles. 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:34.680 It was always singles. 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:36.920 Okay, well, yeah, your first it was the first record 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:37.520 that you got. 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:43.120 Oh man, let's see Shirley and Lee. Well it was 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:48.840 the Everly Brothers Shirly Lee and uh, well it's probably 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.880 an Elvis song too, I'm sure, and a Chuck Berry song, 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.760 probably Johnny be Good or something like that. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:10:01.920 As you were a teenager, how what was the you know. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.320 I guess for a lot of us could say that, 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.360 you know, I grew up in the era of the 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:13.199 Philadelphia sound just being developed, you know, in their early seventies. 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.720 But of course I know that a lot of those cats, 0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:20.680 like not only Gamble and Huff, but Bunny Siegler and 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.600 all those guys were just local Philadelphia musicians. 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:28.079 So could you talk of just about. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:32.760 That that environment atmosphere sort of in the mid sixties 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.960 to the early seventies, like what was happening in Philadelphia musically? 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:42.079 Well, you know, during when I was a teenager living, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.199 you know, living right outside of Philly, you know, I 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:46.600 would take the train down on the Reading Railroad into 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.679 Center City and buy clothes and to go to the 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.840 record Museum on Chestnut Street by records. And what I'd 0:10:53.880 --> 0:10:55.880 always do on Saturday night was I'd go to the 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.400 Uptown And I went to the Uptown Theater almost every 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:04.199 Saturday night. And oh, I saw the greatest of the greats. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.959 So give me a typical give me a typical weekend. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.000 Oh well, all right, you know I saw Sam and Dave, 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.199 I saw you know, the Temptations, I saw Stevie wonder 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:15.840 Do Fingertips when he was like twelve, when he first 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.080 came out. I actually saw him play that song and 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.360 I remember he jump on the drum kit and his 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.400 little kid. I mean, man, there was so many great 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:28.080 Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, the Four Tops, you know, 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.040 all the all the great Motown. But you know Barbara Mason, 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:37.560 Uh you know the Delphonics stylistics. Uh well, the Delphonics 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.440 were first. The Stylistics came a little later, but I mean, 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:42.920 you know, I was taken with a lot of the 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.800 great I remember this one group from Memphis that I loved, 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:50.719 the Mad Lads. Yeah, the Mad Lads, and uh he 0:11:50.960 --> 0:11:52.719 just it just went on and on and on. It 0:11:52.760 --> 0:11:55.680 was to me, it was it was I learned how 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.320 how a show is supposed to go. You know what, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.520 what what got people off, what made got people to 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:04.560 scream and yell and clap and uh it was just 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:05.680 an amazing experience. 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:06.200 Okay. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.480 So you know again, I'm a Philadelphian, so I've not 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.640 heard any shows about the Uptown. What would be the 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:19.559 typical format of a show, like, for instance, if James 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.000 Brown is coming to Philadelphia, would he normally play at 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.520 the Uptown or was he at. 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.080 The time, Yeah, he would the Uptown Theater. Well, you know, 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:29.120 it was part of it was part of the Chiplan's circuit. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:32.000 You know, it was the Apollo, the Howard and Howard 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.160 Theater in DC, the Uptown in Philly. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.320 I mean that was the circuit, you know, So, like, 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:40.439 what would the format be like would shows? Would you 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.040 go there at twelve and at afternoon and. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:42.840 Stay there all day? 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.000 Or no, No, it was he there were evening shows. They 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.280 were evening shows, and they would have a house band. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.440 They always had a house band, and part of the 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.600 house band later became a lot of the cats who 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.280 played with Gamble and Huff became the studio guys for 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:58.439 Game on Huff. But in fact, Kenny Gamble might have 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.240 even been playing piano in the house man Darrel. We'll 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.080 tell you a little bit more about that too, because 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:07.080 he he was He worked with with Kenny and Leon 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:11.040 on his first record. But I, you know, I worked 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:13.720 with Bobby Martin. Bobby Martin arranged the first single that 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.480 I that I did, and I didn't even know who 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.079 he was. We we were looking I was. It was 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.240 basically my high school band and we wanted to make 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.560 a record. We went We went down to North broad 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.960 Street to a place called Virtue Studios. Frank Virtue, who 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.120 who had a song called Guitar Booge Shuffle that was 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:30.920 his claim to fame. 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.640 It was an instrumental okay. 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:34.920 He had a small had a small studio on North 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:39.720 broad Street and we recorded this track and Frank Virtue, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.560 who was the owner and the engineer, he said, man, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.439 you guys need some work. He said, I'm going to 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.319 introduce you to somebody. He gave me Bobby Martin's number, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.640 and we went down and paid him a visit and 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:51.920 he was working out of a small office just south 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.040 of a city hall on Broad Street, and he arranged 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:56.959 it and kind of he kind of you know, gave 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.480 us a little professional you know, spit and polish and 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.440 made made it sound good. So so we were both 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.680 Darryl and I were kind of involved with the core 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.400 of the Gamble and enough people before they became kind 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:10.200 of gambling off. 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:15.320 What was your group situation before Hall of Notes or 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.320 was Darryl you're well? 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.800 I had I had a band called the Masters, and 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.720 Daryl had a group called the Temptones. Daryl's group was 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.360 pretty much a four part an a cappella group, very 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:30.600 similar to the Temptations. That's why they call themselves the Temptones. 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:35.520 Really yeah, and my group was more of a combo, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.160 you know. It was funny I used that word combo. 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:43.360 Nobody uses that word anymore, right, It was you know, guitar, bass, drums. 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:47.240 We had a trumpet and a trombone and a saxophone. Uh. 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:50.400 I got my sister to sing background. So we were 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.240 like our self contained, you know, rhythm section and vocals, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:55.120 and we did all you know, we did. We did 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.200 what bands did in those days. We played the hits, 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.480 We played the songs that we heard on the radio, 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.640 and you know, leaning a lot on on the stuff 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.280 that came out of Stax and Volt too. I did 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:07.480 a lot of that, and I did a lot of 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:08.760 Curtis Mayfield as well. 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:15.440 So for you, though, as a teenager, did you instantly 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:18.000 know that you wanted to be in the music business 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.680 or were you just rolling with the win and see 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:22.320 what would happen. 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:25.600 I don't think I had a choice, you know, And 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.320 I'm not bragging when I say this, but I've never 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.240 had a job. The only thing I've ever done is 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.200 play music. Is this thing I've had to have in 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:34.760 a job, was teaching guitar lessons when I was in college. 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:40.560 So that's I'm a blessed, a very very grateful person 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.320 because I got to do what I you know, what 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:44.640 I think I was born to do. 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:47.880 All right, So how did you meet Darryl? 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:53.880 Well, it's a it's an unusual story. His he the 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:59.680 Timptones had recorded on Jimmy Bishop's label. Jimmy Bishop you 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.160 might know it was was the top DJ on w D. 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.000 As their family is legendary in Philly. 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.920 Oh yeah, and uh so Darryl. Darryl was signed to 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:13.080 and I think it was Arctic Records. Uh, he'll tell you. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.480 He'll give you all the details on that. On his side. 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:18.920 And this this group I had, as I said, it 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.120 is called the Masters. And we made this track with 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.280 Bobby Martin and went down to the record museum on 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.880 Chestnut Street and said, hey, we made a record and 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:29.760 the guy said, let me hear it, put it on 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.160 the turntable, said what are you going to do? I said, well, 0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.520 we're looking for we won't put it out. He said, 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.960 sign here, threw a piece of paper in front of me, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:39.680 and of course I was, you know, I'd sign an 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.240 I'd sign anything ship. In fact, I think that was 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.160 I think I did that way too many times in 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.560 my career. But that's another story enough. You don't have 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:49.320 enough time for that. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.960 Yeah, I was going to say, I got to ask 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.520 you about the seventies years. 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.200 But we but we did get you know, So my 0:16:57.280 --> 0:16:59.520 song is getting played on H A T and D 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.040 A S. Darryl's song was getting played, so we were 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.240 both aware of each other, but I didn't I didn't 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:10.399 know him, and we were individually invited to a record 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.919 hop that Jimmy Bishop was doing out in West Philly 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:16.600 at the del Fi Ballroom. Del Fi Ballroom, right, you know. 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.760 And so we went out there and we were standing backstage. 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:23.320 It was an afternoon teenage thing. It was the Five 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.520 Stair Steps Howard Tate. Howard Tate had a song called 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.320 Look a Granny, Run Run, And so Howard Tate Five 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:31.840 Stair Steps, me and Daryl's group in my group, and 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.439 we literally didn't know each other, and but I had 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.920 heard his record, he had heard my record. And then 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.760 a gang fight broke out in the crowd, and so yeah, 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:43.160 so we all went down and we never even got 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:45.960 to perform. We were gonna lip sync our record. We 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:49.520 went down onto the street level and when we went downstairs, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:51.679 we went, hey, man, I saw you. Yeah, yeah, you know, 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.280 I said, And we were both going to Temple University 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.040 and I started seeing him around the school on Broad Street. 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:02.879 But John, excuse me, I have to ask you because 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.159 it sounds like so regular. This isn't the no, this 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:06.920 is in the sixties, correct. 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:09.760 Yeah, this was a team. This would have been nineteen 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:10.320 sixty eight. 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:14.520 So the question is was it common Because DAS at 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.359 the time was still an R and B station, right, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:19.920 And I'm guessing that Mary Mason and then we're playing 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.600 nothing but R and B music. So how common was 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.520 it that two dudes, too white dudes, two different groups 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.480 had music on these black radio stations. 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:31.320 Well, did you ever hear our music? 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:34.080 I mean, yeah I did, But I'm just saying to 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:37.120 you that in the moment though, in the moment. 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:40.520 Hey listen, we we were accepted by the black music 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.760 community long before we were accepted by the white, white 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.240 rock and roll community. So it was not a surprise 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.760 to us at all when our records crossed over. You know, 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.320 that was totally seemed normal to me. We just made 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:55.320 the music that we made, you know. I mean, if 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.080 you grow up in the Philadelphia area and you listened 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.280 to Philadelphia radio and you're kid, you're gonna make the 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.560 music that goes in your head, you know. And so 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.840 we made the music that that we made, and it, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.000 I guess must have done something right, so, you know. 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.840 But for you, but for you growing up in that 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:22.399 time period, you weren't at all drawn to, uh, the 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.880 other acts of the era, era like the Dovell's or. 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.000 You know, like the Frankie Avalin. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.480 Dan You're like, yeah, you're talking about the Cameo Parkway era. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:35.000 Yeah, yeah, Well, you. 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:37.720 See what happened was when Darryl and I first met, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:42.320 two of the guys in my band got drafted into Vietnam. 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:44.920 My band fell apart. Daryl's group was kind of falling 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:48.440 apart anyway, so I joined up with him as a 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:51.760 guitar player, backup guitar player, and when both groups fell apart, 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.400 he and I gravitated toward each other and we started 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.959 we became songwriters. At the at the Schubert Schubert Building, 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.800 guy the guy named John Madera, and John Madera was 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.320 from the Cameo Parkway. He was the guy from the 0:20:05.359 --> 0:20:10.480 Dovels and Chubby Checker and Frankie and uh, we knew 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.600 that that that that music was on its way out, 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.320 and you know, it was really the end of that 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.200 Cameo Parkway era. So but we you know, we knew, 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.080 we knew Lenn Barry and and all those guys. You know, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.280 they were all around the whole time. And then at 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.639 the exact same time that Darren and I were writing 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:27.639 on the I think we were on the second floor, 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:30.240 Gamble and Huff opened their offices on the fourth floor 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.879 with Tommy Bell and everything. So we all kind of 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:36.160 started at the same time. 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:38.800 That building that you were referring to was that kind 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.240 of like the Brill Building was. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.639 The Philadelphia's version of the Brill Building. It was the 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.080 Super Theater building. Okay, we're still there, but there were 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.200 offices in it at the time. And yeah, so that's 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:52.920 how we started. And uh, you know, yeah, we knew 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.200 all those guys, and you know, we were involved in 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.840 that era. But as I said, the Dovels and Cheby 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.760 Checker and those guys werena you know, they were they 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:04.760 were they were the last year's model, you know, they 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:06.400 were kind of going out. 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:11.880 I went to Performing Arts school, uh for elementary at least, 0:21:11.960 --> 0:21:15.639 even though it went up to high school. But oftentimes 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.600 we go to that Schubert Building to learn like our 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:22.800 musical craft, like take piano lessons over there, and take 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:28.240 drum lessons over there on Broad Street. Yeah, so you get, 0:21:28.400 --> 0:21:32.600 you guys met when a gang fight was breaking out, 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:38.120 like yes, in your mind, like even like was how typical? 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.760 I mean, I guess I was born way after like 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:47.240 the gang Wars. But you know, if you're a teenager 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:52.000 in the fifties and sixties, like how prevalent was gang 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:53.840 activity in Philadelphia? 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.320 You know, I think in the sixties the city was 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:00.960 much more integrated. There was, there wasn't as much violence. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:03.520 I think a lot of the you know, the black 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.199 black power movement, black pride movement really started more in 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.440 the seventies. And you know, by that time, Daryl and 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:12.399 I had gone on to New York. But you know, 0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.520 and of course there was you know, there was racial 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.200 stuff happening all over the country, but we felt I 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.360 always felt very comfortable in Philadelphia, especially in the sixties. 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:22.879 I never had any problems with it. And you know, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.280 if you really look at if you look at Gamble 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.320 and Huff at the great you know tsop rhythm section. 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:30.840 You know, it was an integrated rhythm section. You know, 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:34.320 black and white players playing working together in the studio. 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.320 And the head engineer, Joe Tarcia, he was a white, 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:42.000 white cat. And you know Vince Montana who did all 0:22:42.000 --> 0:22:44.439 the string arrangements. You know, he's a white guy. But 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.119 so there was it was really it didn't feel that 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:48.680 unusual to me at the time. 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:53.880 So in your opinion, what year do you feel as 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:57.320 though what we know is the sound of Philadelphia, or 0:22:57.359 --> 0:22:58.960 at least the first draft it does'tend to be the 0:22:59.040 --> 0:23:03.040 less strings like that was Philly International, but you know, 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:07.679 like the earlier and trudest stage of like Gamble Records 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:09.560 before Philly International. 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:10.560 Before it was a little more raw. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.199 Yeah, So for you, like especially the stuff they did 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.879 on Atlantic, when do you feel is like the actual 0:23:20.119 --> 0:23:22.199 sound of Philadelphia got established? 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:27.840 I think it happened around the same time, around nineteen seventy, 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:30.920 I would say, I feel like, you know, like you said, 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:34.360 the Little Sunny and the Intruders, the Delphonics, those records, 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:38.840 they were street records. They were essentially do wop records 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:44.160 with musical backing, you know, And it wasn't really until 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:48.040 later on when Tommy Bell, I think, was responsible for 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:53.199 adding a real high level of musical sophistication to what 0:23:53.400 --> 0:23:56.240 was coming out of the game on Huff's Place. You know, 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.920 if you listen to Tommy Bell, and I mean his court 0:24:00.080 --> 0:24:04.640 changes are so unbelievable and so unique and so complicated 0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:07.960 really if you think about it, and you know, in 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.159 a way, and I had a conversation with it with 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:15.000 Burt Backerac about this. Tommy Bell was, to me, is 0:24:15.040 --> 0:24:17.560 like the black Burt Backerac, you know. I mean you 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.159 listen to Burt backerac songs and the way he voiced 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.280 his chords, and you listen to Tommy Bell and the 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:24.679 way he voiced his chords. I think they were listening 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:27.359 to each other because I think there's a lot of 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:28.320 similarity there. 0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:31.639 Could you talk about the period that led up to 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:33.800 the actual record deal with the Lenox. 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:37.560 Yeah, well, it goes back to the shop building. We 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.080 were working with this guy, John Madera, and we were 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.920 just songwriters. We were kind of staff songwriters, and we would, 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.480 you know, we'd write some songs and he'd try to 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.199 pitch him for us, and nothing was really happening. And 0:24:50.280 --> 0:24:53.000 he had done a deal with Chapel Music in New 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:56.480 York City. I guess he sold his catalog. And when 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:59.520 he sold his catalog, we kind of came along with 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:02.199 the deal. We were like his new writers, and so 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:05.239 he was kind of bragging on us as the new 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:07.800 writers that he was bringing along with the sale of 0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:10.840 his publishing catalog. So we went to New York City 0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:14.600 and we auditioned for chap Music. Basically, you know, he 0:25:14.720 --> 0:25:17.280 kind of it was, you know, he would show us off, 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:19.800 you know, and me and Daryl would play our little songs, 0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:22.840 you know, that we had written, and Chapel Music seemed interested, 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.320 but then nothing would ever happen. So then go to 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:28.439 New York and we'd do a showcase, he and they, 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:30.560 just Daryl and I just the two of us. He'd 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:32.840 played piano, I played guitar, and it was like a 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:35.879 kind of a little bit kind of a folky R 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:39.800 and B duo kind of thing. And everybody always loved 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:42.440 what we did, but we never we never got any traction. 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:45.000 We'd go back to Philly and we'd find out that 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.520 and always the thing he'd always say to us is say, yeah, 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:51.040 they like you, but they passed. They passed. We couldn't 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:53.800 figure out why why they like us, But nobody ever 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:57.119 offered us a deal. And we later found out that 0:25:57.200 --> 0:25:59.280 he was trying to cut deals on the side that 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:02.160 were just so so bad that nobody wanted to touch 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:04.080 us because it was just, you know, I don't want 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:07.440 to get into the music business. This the dark, seamy 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:09.399 side of the music business a little bit. 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:13.240 But that's act. That's no ex education. Though. 0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:18.359 Yeah, man, in Philly was it as was the the 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:21.520 what I will say, the mars Levy of it all. 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.840 Was that kind of a presence in Philadelphia as well. 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:30.000 Absolutely, it was all over the place. It was everywhere. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:32.600 So when do you feel as though. 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:36.119 What I you know, for those who are listening to 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:40.920 the podcast, I'm sort of speaking on a kind of 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:45.960 the wise guy mafioso era of the music business where. 0:26:46.119 --> 0:26:48.280 We thought, so he was following you, he was following you. 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:51.000 Well, yeah, I know we're following because we know each other. 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:52.000 But I'm speaking for the people. 0:26:52.000 --> 0:26:55.480 I'm yeah, oh, yes, you represent the people. 0:26:56.960 --> 0:27:01.240 However, you know, eventually, well, some of it's like that 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:03.480 episode of I don't know if you remember the Sopranos 0:27:03.480 --> 0:27:07.960 when when uh uh, you know, Tony's guys were trying 0:27:07.960 --> 0:27:10.800 to shake down the Starbucks and the person was trying 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:15.800 to like explain to them, like we're not a local, 0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:19.640 like this is this is a chain they and they 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:20.960 sort of felt like dinosaurs. 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:22.960 It was like, oh, we can't shake. 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:29.200 Down, right And but for you when did that sort 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:32.000 of did that era ever end? 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:34.679 I think it did, and I think it kind of 0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:37.639 went out in the seventies. And by that time, Daryl 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:40.080 and I were so frustrated because we couldn't get anything 0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:43.320 going and every you know, it was very frustrating to 0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:46.080 have people like like what you did, but yet not 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:49.040 respond to you. And we we we got to the 0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:51.560 point where we couldn't deal with it anymore, and we 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:53.600 we kind of put our pulled our money together. We 0:27:53.720 --> 0:27:56.240 you know, we didn't have anything at the time. I mean, 0:27:56.280 --> 0:27:58.720 you know, if I could buy a cheese steak, you know, 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:01.480 it was a big deal for me. You know, so 0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:04.240 we pulled we pulled our money together when we flew 0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:06.480 to California and neither of us had ever been to 0:28:06.520 --> 0:28:09.679 California before, and we didn't know that you had to 0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:12.360 have a car when you got there. We we just 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:17.400 we just showed up. We just shut up. This guy 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:20.560 from Chapel Music picked us up at the airport and 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:22.760 he let us stay at his house and he said, 0:28:22.800 --> 0:28:24.040 I'm going to get you you know, I'm going to 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:26.880 let you guys play for few people and see what happens. 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.600 We just thought maybe California would give us a chance, 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:33.000 and sure enough, we played for this guy at his house, 0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:35.679 literally in his living room, and he was friends with 0:28:35.720 --> 0:28:39.000 Amed Erdigan, had Atlantic Records, very good friends they were. 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.560 He was actually he wasn't really a musician. He was 0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:44.479 an art dealer, but amed Erdigan was a big art 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:46.680 collector and that that's I guess that was their thing. 0:28:47.320 --> 0:28:49.720 So we played at this guy's living room and this 0:28:49.800 --> 0:28:52.080 guy said, he started it was funny. We played a 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:55.280 couple of songs and he started laughing, and we said, 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:57.280 what's up? What's the deal? He goes, are you guys 0:28:57.280 --> 0:29:01.160 for real? We were like yeah, and he's like, why 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:03.200 are you playing in my living room? He goes, how 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:05.360 come you don't have a record contract? I said, well, 0:29:05.400 --> 0:29:08.400 we can't get one. We got them this guy in Philly, 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:11.120 who you know, can't help us, and we don't know 0:29:11.120 --> 0:29:13.280 what to do. I mean, it was kind of crazy, 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:15.640 and he said, I'm gonna call on it. He says, 0:29:15.680 --> 0:29:17.960 you guys go back to Atlantic and you auditioned for them, 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.560 and we went okay, and so we flew back to 0:29:21.600 --> 0:29:24.160 Philly and then we went took the train to New 0:29:24.240 --> 0:29:28.880 York and we walked into a room with Jerry Greenberg, 0:29:28.920 --> 0:29:31.080 who was the president of Atlantic at the time, and 0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:35.479 Reef Martin and we played our songs just like we 0:29:35.560 --> 0:29:38.600 did every time we played, and a Reef stood up 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:40.640 at the end and said, I want to produce these guys. 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:42.880 That was it? Wow, record deal? 0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:49.920 What was it like working with him? 0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:54.160 Because I became familiar with the Reef because of I 0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:56.440 guess my love for the average white band records. That's 0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:59.640 when I started seeing his name on a lot of 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:03.400 the crow But at the time, were you excited were 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:07.920 you familiar with his track record with like Aretha? 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:11.440 I was. I was very, very familiar with a Reef. 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.400 I thought the Aretha stuff and in particular, his arrangements 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:20.200 were so spectacular and so beautiful string arrangements and just 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:23.680 his just his musical sensibility. And you know, he was 0:30:23.720 --> 0:30:27.040 an interesting guy because he was he was Turkish, and 0:30:27.080 --> 0:30:30.240 he had this deep, deep love for American jazz and 0:30:30.280 --> 0:30:34.480 American music. What was great about a Reef was he 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:38.240 thought like a pure musician. He didn't care about styles 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:41.280 and genres and what was hip or what was happening 0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:44.760 at the moment. He just cared about what would serve 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:48.680 the song the best. He he thought like a classical, 0:30:49.040 --> 0:30:52.760 like a classical arranger. He you know, if it needed 0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:55.520 an obo and in a viola, he would do an 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:57.840 obo and a viola. He had no there was no 0:30:59.000 --> 0:31:01.200 it was no kind of thing. Well, so and so 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:03.160 is doing this. This is the sounds on the radio, 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:05.760 so let's do something like that. It had nothing to 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:09.200 do with that, and he was I learned so much. 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:12.120 In fact, I think every recording session I've ever done 0:31:12.520 --> 0:31:15.880 since that time, I pretty much tried to conduct the 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:20.000 way he did. He just put the best people possible 0:31:20.360 --> 0:31:23.160 in the room, the best players that he thought was 0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:26.000 appropriate for the music in the room, and he just 0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:28.320 guided them and let them do what they did. But 0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:31.880 he just kind of guided them. He never asserted himself 0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:34.720 and made it seem like he was running the show. 0:31:35.240 --> 0:31:38.080 He was always there, and he was always made sure 0:31:38.080 --> 0:31:40.400 that he got exactly what he wanted. But he never 0:31:40.560 --> 0:31:42.520 was out there telling, oh, you do this and you 0:31:42.600 --> 0:31:45.960 do this, and so it was really it was really 0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:48.719 an education to be with him and to see what 0:31:48.920 --> 0:31:52.320 you know. When we were doing the second album with him, 0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:55.959 he was producing The Divine Miss m with Bette Miller, 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.280 so we'd leave the studio, Bette Miller would come in. 0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:02.600 And then he was doing the John Primee album, the 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:06.040 first John Prine album, which was an unbelievable album. So 0:32:06.080 --> 0:32:09.240 he was doing singer songwriters, he was doing R and 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:13.920 b's did he did Solomon Burke, he did Hubert Laws, 0:32:14.000 --> 0:32:18.840 the jazz. So, I mean, he was all over the 0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:22.120 map because he was so good as a as a 0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:24.959 just as a musician. He didn't care what it was. 0:32:25.200 --> 0:32:27.360 It was just music to him, pure music. And I 0:32:27.400 --> 0:32:29.200 think that's what I learned from him. 0:32:29.640 --> 0:32:35.960 So Okay, so back then I know that the this 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:38.360 sort of I mean, the technology. 0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.640 Is different than the eighties than it was the seventies. 0:32:42.760 --> 0:32:49.360 But when you're working on an album, like is is 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:53.280 he having is it one on one time with him 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:55.200 or is it for him like a day job where 0:32:55.200 --> 0:32:58.480 it's like, Okay, I got a refill on Tuesday, and 0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.800 Donny Hathaway on Wednesday. Yeah, all notes, I'll squeeze you 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:03.640 guys in him for three hours, so it's not like 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:04.960 he's spending No, he. 0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:08.200 Didn't squeeze us in. He didn't squeeze us in. We 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:12.680 had full day sessions or full night sessions, mostly day sessions, 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:15.880 and he usually did two sessions a day. So yes, 0:33:15.960 --> 0:33:19.320 we would be in there for maybe eleven to five 0:33:19.520 --> 0:33:21.360 or something like that, and he would take a dinner 0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:24.120 break and maybe he would have another session that evening. 0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:28.320 But we worked, I mean, we know, we worked. We 0:33:28.440 --> 0:33:29.720 were right there, I. 0:33:29.640 --> 0:33:32.560 Mean right in the thick of it, and it didn't 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:35.080 feel like cutting paste to you like in terms of 0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:39.040 you know, me and I spend more time with him. 0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:43.520 I we felt, we felt that he cared as much 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:45.480 for us as he did for any of the other 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:48.080 artists working with and you know, he put us. We 0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:49.920 didn't have a band at the time. It was just 0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:53.400 Daryln and I, So our rhythm section for that second 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:59.000 album was Bernard Purdy, Gordon Edwards, Richard T. H mc craken, 0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:04.640 Dave's Finosa. Yeah, these are the kind of players we 0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:07.160 were with, and so for the first time Darryl and 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.879 I got to play with these, you know. I mean, 0:34:10.040 --> 0:34:13.480 we had Joe Farrell the saxophone solo and She's Gone 0:34:13.600 --> 0:34:14.320 is Joe Farrell? 0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:15.440 Yeah? Oh wow? 0:34:15.880 --> 0:34:18.560 You know, so we had we had jazz musicians and 0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:22.880 R and B musicians and classical musicians, and you know, 0:34:23.120 --> 0:34:25.960 it was just an amazing thing to be He just 0:34:26.080 --> 0:34:28.120 he would hear our songs and then he would think, 0:34:28.400 --> 0:34:30.520 I know who's right for this, and he would make 0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:32.960 the call. We didn't even know who we'd be walking 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:36.080 into that day, but we knew that whoever we walked 0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:37.960 into that day was going to be just right for 0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:38.960 the music we were making. 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:45.359 Okay, I have a question about abandoned Ntenette. Yeah, specifically 0:34:45.400 --> 0:34:49.239 She's Gone. Yep, yeah, Okay, So I've gone through this 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:54.680 story a lot of times in the Pandemic where it's 0:34:54.719 --> 0:35:00.080 something about keys modulating that scare the living beg this 0:35:00.320 --> 0:35:04.440 out of me, and you know, I mean, be honest, 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:07.160 like you guys were definitely for drama with the the 0:35:07.239 --> 0:35:10.120 end build up of She's Going, But whose idea was 0:35:10.160 --> 0:35:12.720 it to just do those five modulations? 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:15.320 Like is this going to be the key? You know? 0:35:16.080 --> 0:35:18.759 Is this going to be the key? Is going to be. 0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:23.319 Talking about. 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.800 At the very end of she's going there's like just 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:28.719 just are you know, like in a soap opera where 0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:28.880 you have. 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:32.839 That sort of thing. So there's a part of the. 0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:35.520 Song or like the end of I'm trying for something 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:38.880 for our for our listeners understand Love on Top by Beyonce, 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:43.920 like Growing Up, Yeah, it's magic, it's like fourteen times whatever, yeah. 0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:46.080 Right, or Golden Lady by Stevie. 0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:51.440 But the thing is, to me, it's I always knew 0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:55.879 the boogie man was waiting for me at the end 0:35:56.360 --> 0:35:58.040 of every Mirror. 0:35:58.080 --> 0:36:03.680 You got to get over this at some point, man. 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:05.080 I'll tell you what. 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:07.920 I you know, I believe that that was That was 0:36:07.960 --> 0:36:14.000 a reef's idea to do that, and it was it's 0:36:14.120 --> 0:36:17.239 kind of a cheap shot to modulate to to kind 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:19.440 of you know, to Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:21.480 gonna make this song more exciting because I'm gonna modulate 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:24.840 up a half step. I'm gonna take it up. But 0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:27.200 I'll tell you what, Darryl and I have modulated four 0:36:27.239 --> 0:36:29.200 times in that song. We never modulated again in the 0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:33.279 rest of our career. That's all I got to say 0:36:33.280 --> 0:36:34.759 about that, okay. 0:36:34.840 --> 0:36:41.960 But there's also okay, what's even stranger about that? Is 0:36:42.160 --> 0:36:45.759 one of the very first musical videos I've ever seen. 0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:49.840 Was She's Gone. One of the strangest things. 0:36:50.200 --> 0:36:54.200 I believe where I see She's going. 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:58.400 I think, Jerry Blabbitt, I know where you saw it. 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:00.600 You saw it, you saw I'm Philadelph a TV on 0:37:00.640 --> 0:37:02.640 a dance show, on a teenage show. 0:37:03.880 --> 0:37:04.320 I did. 0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:06.680 We got a store, I got a story. I got 0:37:06.719 --> 0:37:07.319 a story for you. 0:37:07.920 --> 0:37:10.560 So the thing is is that I remember I was 0:37:10.719 --> 0:37:11.840 I was five years old. 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.680 I believe that you guys actually did have a devil. 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:18.920 You know, a woman was a devil. So whatever the 0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:21.640 lyrics were, I payed the devil to replacement. I remember 0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:23.920 you guys sitting on a you guys were sitting on 0:37:23.960 --> 0:37:26.239 a couch, and I just. 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.960 Remember a devil was running around in this video. 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:33.680 Which the thing is is that, you know, for listeners 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:37.759 that don't know music, videos was a promotion tool so 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:44.160 in case you couldn't go overseas and tour, they could 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:47.360 at least have something to play on those top of 0:37:47.400 --> 0:37:49.960 the Pop shows or Shindig or any of those shows 0:37:49.960 --> 0:37:53.719 that you weren't able to get to you know, if 0:37:53.719 --> 0:37:56.360 you weren't big enough to fly to Europe, so you 0:37:56.360 --> 0:38:01.080 would make performance videos. But soon afterwards, uh, they started 0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:03.839 putting some concepts in there, like Frank Zappa do some 0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:08.200 concept videos. So I definitely remember this being a concept video. 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:14.120 But for you guys, did you because you used music 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:18.600 videos to your advance, do you feel the time like 0:38:19.440 --> 0:38:22.160 this was advantageous to the song in your career? 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:24.680 Well, you have to remember this was over ten years 0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:25.560 before MTV. 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:29.280 Yes, yeah, what happened, And I'll tell you what happened. 0:38:30.840 --> 0:38:33.480 She's going to begin to get some popularity, was on 0:38:33.560 --> 0:38:37.720 the charts. They wanted us to lip sync our song 0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:42.319 at a show in New Jersey or at the at 0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:45.400 the Steel Peer. It was called ed Herst Summertime at 0:38:45.400 --> 0:38:49.880 the Pier. It was a teenage dancer, right was Saturday afternoon, 0:38:50.320 --> 0:38:55.520 Saturday afternoon, right, yeah, yes, So Daryl and I were 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:57.600 thinking about it and we said, wait a minute, I said, 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:00.960 we can't go down to the Steel Pier, and Liz 0:39:01.040 --> 0:39:03.520 sank she's gone, while a bunch of kids started to 0:39:03.560 --> 0:39:06.919 dance to it to where we said, So we said 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:09.200 to them, can we just come to the studio and 0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:12.640 just we record the song, you know, video tape the song, 0:39:12.680 --> 0:39:15.200 and then you can show that they didn't know what 0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:18.840 we were going to do though, So let's just remember 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:22.720 it was nineteen seventy two. Yes, whatever we were doing 0:39:22.760 --> 0:39:25.440 at the time, there was a let's put it this way, 0:39:25.480 --> 0:39:29.320 there was some mine altering substances both there you go, okay. 0:39:29.680 --> 0:39:34.280 So we decided that we were gonna do this weird 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:37.680 thing where we brought literally the furniture from our apartment 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:41.880 and my sister, who was a student at Temple University, 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:44.880 she was going to direct it. The girl who walks 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.320 by in the video is Sarah Daryl's girlfriend from Sarah Smile, 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.160 and the devil was some kid from Long Island who 0:39:52.239 --> 0:39:55.279 is our road manager. We rented in a devil suit. 0:39:56.480 --> 0:40:00.600 I rented a penguin suit with flippers and was wearing 0:40:00.600 --> 0:40:03.480 the bathroom. So I would encourage anyone out there who 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:06.280 has not seen this video to go on YouTube. 0:40:08.600 --> 0:40:12.480 Oh wow, it never wants it. That's so weird, Like 0:40:12.680 --> 0:40:17.200 I have a list of child memories that not once 0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:22.000 anything like yo, I gotta I totally forgot to see. 0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:24.200 Was it ever on YouTube? It is? 0:40:26.400 --> 0:40:29.640 You can watch it. So we so we did this 0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:32.879 and they got so angry. They got so pissed off 0:40:32.920 --> 0:40:36.560 at us because they thought we were mocking them, and 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:39.239 I guess in the way we were. But anyway, so 0:40:39.280 --> 0:40:42.160 they told us. They got mad. They called, they called 0:40:42.360 --> 0:40:45.280 Atlantic Records and said, these guys will never get played 0:40:45.280 --> 0:40:48.919 on Philadelphia radio. Who do they think they are? Well, oh, 0:40:48.960 --> 0:40:51.839 it was. It was bad, and we had a backpedal 0:40:51.880 --> 0:40:56.000 to all this stuff with the record company and we 0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:58.600 were just having a crazy time because we were that's 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:02.279 where we were at. And uh so, anyway, that's how 0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:02.920 that happened. 0:41:03.400 --> 0:41:05.319 You know, my dad had a lot of records in 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:05.800 the house. 0:41:06.440 --> 0:41:10.480 Shortly thereafter, almost immediately as that song is going to 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:15.000 the charts, I know that Tavars it also covered She's Gone, 0:41:15.400 --> 0:41:18.200 So there was This is almost the same similar situation 0:41:18.320 --> 0:41:22.080 with the Fifth Dimension in Dinah Ross, like releasing Love 0:41:22.120 --> 0:41:27.040 Hangover at the same time, like Tavars and Hall of 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:31.560 Notes are kind of fighting for airplay time for She's 0:41:31.640 --> 0:41:32.919 Gone at the time. 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:33.719 Were you guys cool? 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:36.640 No, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but 0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:39.399 not quite. We have released We had released She's Gone 0:41:39.400 --> 0:41:41.560 and went into the top forty, but it didn't go 0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:45.440 much higher than that. Then after that, Tavaris recorded and 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:47.360 went to number one. It was a number one R 0:41:47.400 --> 0:41:48.439 and B record. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:51.200 Right, Okay, that's what I do, the Tavares version. 0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:54.440 And people said people, people said, oh, man, you believe 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:56.680 it's just number one R and B record. Darrenly are like, yeah, 0:41:56.760 --> 0:42:00.560 that makes perfect sense to me. And then we released 0:42:00.600 --> 0:42:04.040 it again after Tarvaris, when Sarah Smile was out and 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:05.840 it went into the it was I would think it 0:42:05.880 --> 0:42:06.600 went to number two. 0:42:07.200 --> 0:42:10.080 Man, okay, but you got you guys were fine and 0:42:10.320 --> 0:42:10.759 cool with that. 0:42:10.960 --> 0:42:13.200 Then you know, hey, no, I was happy. 0:42:13.280 --> 0:42:15.319 But even Lou Rawls got that song. 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:16.399 That's right. 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:20.120 The next record with war Babies, could you talk about 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:22.880 working with Todd Todd Rundren on that record. 0:42:23.680 --> 0:42:25.560 Yeah, Well, we had moved to New York City, and 0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:29.040 so the war Babies record was a direct a reaction 0:42:29.239 --> 0:42:33.200 to leaving Philadelphia and being in New York and experiencing 0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.879 New York and the difference between New York and Philadelphia. 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:39.080 New York was so big, much bigger and more faster 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:42.800 and chaotic, and you know, and and we we really 0:42:42.840 --> 0:42:45.759 you know, even though the Abandoned Lunch and Net was 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:48.200 a great record, it's still one of my favorites. It 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:51.840 didn't really it wasn't very successful. So at the time, 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:54.680 the record business was completely different than it is now, 0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:56.040 you know, I mean, you know how it is now. 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:57.920 If you if you if you don't have a hit 0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:03.160 on your first record, making a second record, yeah, yeah, Well, 0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:06.040 in those days, record companies signed you because they actually 0:43:06.080 --> 0:43:08.480 believed that you could have a career that maybe you know, 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:12.440 you could evolve and develop creatively. So but we had 0:43:12.480 --> 0:43:15.399 no we had no reason to do the same type 0:43:15.440 --> 0:43:18.560 of record because it wasn't successful. So we said, well, 0:43:18.719 --> 0:43:21.520 let's just try something different. And you know, Todd had 0:43:21.640 --> 0:43:25.000 having moved from Philly to New York. We figured he'd 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:28.080 have something, you know, he could relate to it. To 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:31.319 be honest with you, we were just trying to be experimental. 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:33.560 We were trying to push the boundaries and see how 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:37.000 far we could go. It's it's not one of my 0:43:37.040 --> 0:43:42.759 favorite records. I didn't feel comfortable in that style. It 0:43:42.800 --> 0:43:44.560 was a lot more I think. I think the thing 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:47.600 about Todd and his style of production is that you know, 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:49.440 if you if you want Todd Runger and you get 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:53.279 Todd Runger, you know, there's no denying what you're going 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:56.560 to get. And so you know, for me personally, not 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:59.040 one of my favorites, but I think it did. Was 0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:02.160 it It gave us the ability to be more kind 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.520 of in that in that experimental rock genre. And then 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:09.719 going forward, we we combined, we combined the Philly R 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:13.000 and B the folky stuff that we were doing, and 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:16.680 that war Baby's thing all together and that's what enabled 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:18.160 us to find a sound of our own. 0:44:19.520 --> 0:44:23.480 So for your the next record, I mentioned this at 0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:28.960 the Rock and Mall Hall of Fame. Uh the record. 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:30.920 Yeah, I know what you're gonna say, Who's. 0:44:31.000 --> 0:44:33.279 Whose idea was it for the cover design to do 0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:36.600 the because you know, the Androgis thing was coming into 0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:39.640 play with what Bowie was doing, and I think, like 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:42.160 I think the Stones did, it would go ted suit 0:44:42.440 --> 0:44:46.200 like for you what was the the marketing idea of 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:47.279 that cover and. 0:44:47.400 --> 0:44:49.480 It was That's exactly what it was. It was. It 0:44:49.520 --> 0:44:52.160 was a moment in time. That's what was happening in 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:55.560 New York City and Greenwich Village at the time. You know, 0:44:55.640 --> 0:44:57.160 it was Rick Darringer. 0:44:56.920 --> 0:45:01.120 Tyrung Gren, Mick Jagger, Bowie and we were you know, 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:05.080 we caught up in that whole down scene that was 0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:08.040 happening in Philly, in New York or rather, and we 0:45:08.080 --> 0:45:11.480 met this guy named Pierre Laroche, who was the stylist 0:45:11.600 --> 0:45:13.160 for all those records, for every. 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.320 One of those records that you mentioned, and I remember 0:45:15.320 --> 0:45:18.400 we had dinner with him and he said, I remember 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:23.799 what he said. He said, I will immortalize you. And 0:45:23.840 --> 0:45:26.359 you know what, it's the only the only album cover 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:28.840 anyone ever asked us about, and it has nothing to 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:30.040 do with the music inside. 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:36.960 But see about hdo But okay, of course, the breakout 0:45:37.000 --> 0:45:40.319 single from that is Sarah Smile. At this time, are 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:43.560 you guys coining the term blue eyed soul? 0:45:43.800 --> 0:45:43.920 Like? 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:45.640 How you know? 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:48.239 We never really liked that phrase, you know. To me, 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.360 to be honest with you, I just think, you know, 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:55.560 it's to me, it's kind of offensive. And I'll tell 0:45:55.560 --> 0:45:59.120 you why I think it. It kind of takes white 0:45:59.160 --> 0:46:03.000 guys trying to sound black guys, okay, And I don't 0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:05.640 think that's what we do. I think we sound like 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:09.279 the way we sound, and if we've got soul, then 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:13.160 good and I hope it comes through, and you know, 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:15.440 to me, and I don't. I don't want to get 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:18.480 too philosophical about this. But to me, soul is not 0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:24.239 is doesn't belong to any race, creed, nationality. I mean, 0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:27.000 you know, I hear music. I hear soulful music and 0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:30.080 all sorts of music around the world. I mean, you know, 0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:34.600 there's Irish music that's very soulful, there's American Indian music 0:46:34.680 --> 0:46:38.960 is unbelievably soulful. So I think soul is a thing 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:42.279 that touches you. It moves you emotionally, and that's what 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:45.160 soul is. If you hear music that makes you move, 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:50.319 whether it's physically move or makes your your your emotions move. 0:46:50.640 --> 0:46:54.239 To me, that's what soul is. So at least I 0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:55.400 got it out on the table. 0:46:57.120 --> 0:47:02.719 It's very similar to what Bonnie read that yeah on 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:05.040 our show as well with Crutch of the Blues and 0:47:05.080 --> 0:47:08.040 her experience growing up listening to that stuff. 0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:12.120 Other Avana is like you know, the I think from 0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:14.080 when I listen to artists. You know, if it was 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:17.880 white artists, I think, more so than anything, you just 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:20.560 want to see those artists give credit to what they 0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:21.160 grew up on. 0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:21.839 You know what I'm saying. 0:47:21.840 --> 0:47:23.440 I don't think it's you know what I'm saying, And 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:25.279 you know that's what I kind of always saw with 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:28.279 you guys, and just with the white artists that kind 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:30.080 of fell into that, you know, that what you call 0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:32.839 blue out soul, like a Mike McDonald or whatever. You know, 0:47:32.880 --> 0:47:34.920 they always bigged up the stuff that they grew up on. 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:36.880 And I think the only time it really becomes an 0:47:36.920 --> 0:47:40.000 issue is when you know, a white artist is. 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:41.840 Like, oh no, this is just all me. 0:47:42.239 --> 0:47:43.840 It's like, no, the fuck it ain't, you know what 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:46.440 I mean, That's that's where the problem comes in. But 0:47:46.640 --> 0:47:48.840 I agree, I mean, it's you can find the elements 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:51.960 of soul in all music. It's a feeling more so 0:47:52.040 --> 0:47:53.960 than it is just a genre or whatever. 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:56.560 You're You're absolutely right, it's we you know, we were 0:47:56.600 --> 0:48:00.080 all products of what came before us. You know, we 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:03.480 we there's not one person on this planet who just 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:06.400 comes out of the womb and is a total, unique original. 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:10.200 Maybe there are a few. What we do and who 0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:14.200 we are is about our It's our It's in our DNA, 0:48:14.320 --> 0:48:16.680 it's in our upbringing, it's in the place we live, 0:48:16.719 --> 0:48:19.719 it's in the experiences that we experience, and that's who 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:23.080 we are. And you know, and I've I've always made 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:26.120 a point to uh, to be very clear that you know, 0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:29.440 to point to my roots and the music that that 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:32.719 made me who I am, and I honor it and 0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:34.680 I try to and I'm very respectful for it, and 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:37.880 I always try to to make sure that you know, 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:40.959 people understand that, hey, this is where it all comes from. 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:44.200 Facts. 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:49.160 I think on this record, well, one you guys are 0:48:49.160 --> 0:48:53.799 producing it, and two, yeah, you have the monsters on here. 0:48:53.880 --> 0:48:57.759 So I could assume that Ed Green is drumming on 0:48:57.880 --> 0:48:58.600 Sarah's Smile. 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:03.239 I believe it was at Green on Sara. We had 0:49:03.760 --> 0:49:05.640 three out three drummers on that record. 0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:09.080 Well, based on them drum fills, I hope that you 0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:13.400 know Ed Greham of Barry White fame and whatnot. 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:17.080 And also on bass h Leland. 0:49:18.160 --> 0:49:20.799 Clark, Yes, yes, and we had Scotti Edwards as well 0:49:20.840 --> 0:49:21.000 on the. 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:25.359 Base and here's Steve right back. Yeah. 0:49:25.400 --> 0:49:29.719 I love when you're using when you're using these uh, 0:49:30.440 --> 0:49:34.839 these monster musicians, like can you just because I will 0:49:34.880 --> 0:49:39.799 also say that consistent levels. But once you get to 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:44.920 the Faces album that you guys capture and consistent you know, 0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:48.360 I know that musicians were quote unquote diamond doesn't in 0:49:48.400 --> 0:49:51.759 the seventies and whatnot, But how do you is it 0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:56.239 just a matter of whoever's available, or is there a 0:49:56.280 --> 0:49:59.640 particular musician that you're looking for to give you a 0:49:59.680 --> 0:50:02.680 particul or it sound like, how do you grab the 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:04.839 musician that you want and how do you know who's 0:50:04.880 --> 0:50:05.839 the best guy to use? 0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:09.440 You know, musicians through their reputation obviously, you know. But 0:50:09.760 --> 0:50:12.759 the Silver album that won with Sarah Small on it, 0:50:13.080 --> 0:50:15.719 that was the first album that we made in California. 0:50:15.840 --> 0:50:18.799 We made that in LA. And we made that in 0:50:18.920 --> 0:50:23.560 LA for a reason. We had an interest for Bond, 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:26.200 who was actually from Philadelphia, who was in our band 0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:29.279 very briefly, and he went to LA to try to 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:31.840 make his mark as a session player and a producer. 0:50:32.480 --> 0:50:35.520 And after the Todd Runggern album when that didn't connect, 0:50:35.640 --> 0:50:38.560 and you know, we realized that wasn't the right direction either, 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:41.439 he said, you guys should come to LA because I've 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:44.560 got great musicians, I've got the best studios. Come out here, 0:50:44.600 --> 0:50:46.719 and we should make the record out here. And so 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:48.839 we took a leap of faith. We just said, hey, man, 0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:51.640 why not and we went to We went to California, 0:50:51.840 --> 0:50:55.000 and you know, in the mid seventies in California, they 0:50:55.160 --> 0:50:57.960 did have the best recording studios in the country. It 0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:02.880 was all the best recording technologies, best engineers, and Chris found, 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:05.759 uh you know, he found he was friends with Ed 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:09.040 Green and and he brought in Lee Scarr and you know, 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:11.680 we had Jeff Bercaro, and we had who was it 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:15.480 who else on drums, Jim Keltner. Yeah, we had all 0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:18.680 all sorts of amazing musicians and they were all available 0:51:18.680 --> 0:51:21.560 because we were in LA. So it was definitely it 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:24.759 was definitely a new experience to be in l A 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:27.399 and record with those guys. And yeah, we got great 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:30.759 results and we made three albums in LA. 0:51:31.280 --> 0:51:34.319 So there was was there truth to the rumor that 0:51:34.360 --> 0:51:39.000 you guys were initially going to do something for the 0:51:39.120 --> 0:51:42.280 Rocky soundtrack because of the Philly connection at one point 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:43.120 for the first movie. 0:51:43.200 --> 0:51:46.680 Yeah, there was a song called Grounds for Separation. Grounds 0:51:46.719 --> 0:51:51.640 for Separation was on on that album and uh so 0:51:51.760 --> 0:51:56.400 Lesser Stallone. Uh he used that song as temp music 0:51:56.520 --> 0:51:58.920 in the in the in the movie when they were editing. 0:51:59.400 --> 0:52:00.680 And you know how it, you know it is with 0:52:00.760 --> 0:52:03.279 a film. If you start using music, you kind of 0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:05.400 you kind of get get married to it and you 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:08.080 can't demo. 0:52:08.840 --> 0:52:09.719 That's the movie game. 0:52:10.719 --> 0:52:13.120 You know, I have no idea why it didn't happen, 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:14.880 but it was a big mistake. 0:52:17.120 --> 0:52:28.120 Your Oh it's nail on the matole. Okay, all right, 0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:29.920 I don't know you know what, I. 0:52:29.880 --> 0:52:32.200 Don't know who. I don't know who thought that was 0:52:32.200 --> 0:52:34.560 wasn't a good idea. But whoever thought it wasn't a 0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:40.640 good idea wasn't too sure. Actually asked Daryl about that. Yes, 0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:41.279 Darrel about that? 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:46.480 Who have a good I will ask Darryl about that? Okay, Well, okay, 0:52:46.520 --> 0:52:49.080 for what I what I'm allowed to ask about him 0:52:49.520 --> 0:52:54.400 was were you his first clients? Yes, okay, so you 0:52:54.719 --> 0:52:56.839 had him when he was like a twenty year old, 0:52:56.960 --> 0:52:58.360 like out of college or something. 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:01.080 Well, let's if you can, if we can wind back 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:03.240 a little bit to that story I told you about 0:53:03.280 --> 0:53:06.400 when we were going from Philly to New York auditioning 0:53:06.440 --> 0:53:10.480 at Chapel Music. On one of those trips, when we 0:53:10.520 --> 0:53:13.080 went and played our new songs for Chapel Music when 0:53:13.080 --> 0:53:17.360 we were songwriters, this young kid, Tommy Mattola was in 0:53:17.400 --> 0:53:20.400 the room. He was a song plugger for Chapel Music 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:25.440 at the time, and after one of those sessions he 0:53:25.560 --> 0:53:27.279 came up to it said, well, you know, what do 0:53:27.280 --> 0:53:30.200 you guys, what's what's your deal? And we're like, we 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:32.200 don't have a deal, and we got nothing going on. 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:35.680 We're you know, we're playing our songs for people. People 0:53:35.719 --> 0:53:38.160 seem to like him, but nothing's happening. He goes, let 0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:41.000 me see if I can help you, and that's how 0:53:41.040 --> 0:53:44.800 he became our manager. He basically he had never managed 0:53:44.800 --> 0:53:48.200 anybody in his life, and he was just a He 0:53:48.239 --> 0:53:50.799 was the same age as us, and you know, we 0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:53.719 were in our twenties early twenties, and he said, I 0:53:53.760 --> 0:53:56.359 think I can help you, and he started to help us. 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.040 And when we wanted to break out of our deal 0:53:59.080 --> 0:54:02.120 with that guy and Philly, we he kind of helped 0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:06.480 us with that, and that's how he became our manager for. 0:54:06.120 --> 0:54:10.600 The Bigger and both of us records that has a 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:15.000 rich girl on Can I ask was it was your label? 0:54:15.719 --> 0:54:16.000 Ever? 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:19.960 Do they ever ask you, guys to slightly change the 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:23.799 lyric to get on radio. I'm only okay, I'm only 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:27.120 asking this, and I hate bringing up the story. When 0:54:27.120 --> 0:54:32.400 you're young and you live with strict parents, it's not 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:37.319 like it comes with a manual on words that you're 0:54:37.320 --> 0:54:40.239 allowed to say and not allowed to say, it's just that, 0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:42.879 you know, it's a curse word if you get hit 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:44.680 and you said the word and didn't. 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:46.799 Know it was a curse word. So of course I'm 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:49.960 reading the song lyrics and I kept singing it's a 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:53.600 bitch girl, and I sat, oh wow. 0:54:53.800 --> 0:54:57.759 Yeah, okay, okay, let's let's think about that. Let's think 0:54:57.760 --> 0:54:59.799 about that in the context of the music that's out 0:54:59.800 --> 0:55:00.400 there today. 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:03.359 I'm not blaming off for it. 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:06.360 No, no, no, I'm not. I'm laughing about it because 0:55:06.719 --> 0:55:09.640 it seems so silly to me. It's like crazy and 0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:11.359 you okay, so you know what they you know what? 0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:14.480 You know what happened with that? It was okay, here, 0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:17.640 here's here's I messed up the music businesses. It was 0:55:17.719 --> 0:55:21.480 okay for the album cut, but the single. We had 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:24.600 to change it for the single. So they they they 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:28.040 made Daryl go in the studio and sing brich. He 0:55:28.120 --> 0:55:32.879 had to put an R in the words. If you 0:55:32.920 --> 0:55:37.560 listen to this single, it's britch. You can barely tell, 0:55:37.600 --> 0:55:40.520 but it's there. And so just by doing that, that 0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:43.080 was okay. It was so stupid. 0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:47.440 I guess the intention was bitch. 0:55:47.600 --> 0:55:48.240 I'm confused. 0:55:48.320 --> 0:55:51.880 Way the intention was bitch? Yeah, the lyric was bitch, 0:55:51.960 --> 0:55:53.279 but you couldn't say that, you. 0:55:53.200 --> 0:55:56.120 Couldn't on the radio and all my life, I did 0:55:56.160 --> 0:55:57.879 not all my life and all my life. 0:55:57.880 --> 0:56:00.680 What do you think it was? She's a girl? 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:04.359 Yeah, but then then he goes back and says, it's 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:05.120 a bitch girl. 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:06.000 He does. 0:56:07.320 --> 0:56:07.680 You know what? 0:56:07.840 --> 0:56:10.640 Okay, I'm not the only one that in this moment. 0:56:11.960 --> 0:56:16.120 Are you familiar with the Philippe when One of a 0:56:16.239 --> 0:56:17.560 Kind love and fair story? 0:56:18.200 --> 0:56:20.120 No, I'm not familiar to the story, but he's one 0:56:20.120 --> 0:56:21.720 of my favorite singers of all time. 0:56:22.480 --> 0:56:25.880 Yeah, No, he's He's definitely out there. He did a 0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:31.920 rogue move. I always wanted to know when how did 0:56:31.960 --> 0:56:35.960 he get kicked out the group? And this they can 0:56:35.960 --> 0:56:37.680 get it kicked out the group. But this sort of 0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:40.360 put the group on high alert that he could be rogue. 0:56:40.800 --> 0:56:43.000 So the next time you listen to One of a 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:46.880 Kind of Love affair towards the end, I had gotten 0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:53.600 a forty five of this maybe back in nineteen ninety seven, 0:56:54.120 --> 0:56:59.080 and I saw that it said edited version, and at first, no, no, 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:04.120 it said un censored version, censored version, And in my mind, 0:57:04.120 --> 0:57:06.200 I'm like, wait, this is the Spinners, not n W 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:10.960 A like what could be censored on the Spinners thing? 0:57:11.719 --> 0:57:14.879 And I happen to ask somebody who used to work 0:57:14.880 --> 0:57:17.400 at Atlantic, and they told me the story that basically 0:57:18.280 --> 0:57:22.520 Felipe in the very last rounds of that libs one 0:57:22.560 --> 0:57:26.080 of the kind of affairs he says, you know you 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:35.560 want to love Hut, you just gotta fuck her, And yeah, 0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:37.840 he got away with it. I think they got away 0:57:37.880 --> 0:57:42.960 with it for like eleven weeks and then suddenly the 0:57:43.080 --> 0:57:46.120 FCC started, you know, like someone caught. 0:57:45.960 --> 0:57:49.280 It on the radio and then like kind of shit 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:51.680 and he and he didn't deny it at all, So. 0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:53.919 You know, I like him even more now. 0:57:54.400 --> 0:57:55.480 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:57:57.520 --> 0:58:00.800 So could you could you talk about in your opinion, 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:06.120 because you guys won't basically have kind of hit your 0:58:06.160 --> 0:58:09.720 stride at least with the hits until four years later. 0:58:09.800 --> 0:58:12.760 So that period in between, like with the Nigga Bays 0:58:12.800 --> 0:58:19.440 record with Beauty on Backstreet and uh, the the Livetime 0:58:19.520 --> 0:58:25.240 record like oh and also the I think Ecstatic for 0:58:25.280 --> 0:58:30.200 those five records, what was generally happening with you guys 0:58:31.440 --> 0:58:35.080 and in terms of where he wanted to go. 0:58:35.120 --> 0:58:37.960 And yeah, I can I can tell exactly what's happened. 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:40.840 So we went down the La do that silver album 0:58:40.880 --> 0:58:45.240 and it was successful with Sarah Smile. Then she She's Done. 0:58:45.240 --> 0:58:47.520 That was successful. Then Rich Girl came on the next 0:58:47.520 --> 0:58:49.760 one that was successful. So I so we were a 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:52.720 role and we were playing bigger you know, bigger arenas 0:58:52.720 --> 0:58:55.600 and things like that. Then came the Beauty on a 0:58:55.640 --> 0:58:58.200 Backstreet novel. And what happened was and I can I 0:58:58.200 --> 0:59:01.400 can tell this story because you know, God bless him. 0:59:01.440 --> 0:59:05.760 Chrispaond had passed away a few years ago. He was 0:59:05.760 --> 0:59:08.720 a brilliant musician and producer, but he was a very, 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:15.160 very damaged individual, and as we got more successful, hegan 0:59:15.280 --> 0:59:20.240 to lose it and he began to overindulge in substance abuse. 0:59:20.800 --> 0:59:22.640 So when we went out to do the third album, 0:59:22.640 --> 0:59:25.560 which ended up being Beauty on a Backstreet, he was 0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:30.280 very very iraq. In fact, we had to cancel sessions 0:59:30.320 --> 0:59:33.480 because he passed out. It was cracked his head on 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:36.360 the on the control, you know, on the on the console, 0:59:36.480 --> 0:59:39.120 and UH got to be taken a hospital. It was 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:42.200 it was a bad scene and so he barely made 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:45.120 through the album. And that album, to me, is the 0:59:45.200 --> 0:59:47.680 darkest thing we've ever done. And I don't really care 0:59:47.760 --> 0:59:49.919 for it, and I never listened to that record ever. 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:52.800 So what happened was because we had no hits and 0:59:52.840 --> 0:59:56.320 that record wasn't very successful, we kind of, you know, 0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:59.919 kind of fell off the radar a little bit and there. 1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:02.120 And I think one of the smartest things we ever 1:00:02.160 --> 1:00:05.160 did during that period of time was we said, you know, 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:08.560 we've been recording all our albums with studio musicians and 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:10.920 it's been great, but what we really need is a 1:00:10.960 --> 1:00:13.640 great live band, and we need a live band that's 1:00:13.680 --> 1:00:16.280 so good that we can take that same band into 1:00:16.320 --> 1:00:19.640 the studio. And at the time, right at that time, 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.760 Elton John was just finishing up the Yellow Brick Road, 1:00:23.560 --> 1:00:26.240 and we made friends with the Elton John band, which 1:00:26.360 --> 1:00:31.440 was Caleb Quay, Kenny Passilli, and Roger Pope, and we 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:34.640 basically adopted them, and all of a sudden, we had 1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:37.520 this kick ass live band that we could take into 1:00:37.600 --> 1:00:41.200 the studio, and we did this album called Along the 1:00:41.200 --> 1:00:43.960 Red Ledge right, and we had a lot of guests 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:47.920 on that album, and we bring David Foster, who had 1:00:48.040 --> 1:00:52.040 never produced a record before. We were his first artists 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:53.920 David Foster ever produced. 1:00:53.600 --> 1:00:55.800 Oh this is the year before After the Love is 1:00:55.840 --> 1:00:58.520 Going so okay. So he worked with you guys first, and. 1:00:58.480 --> 1:00:59.800 I got to tell you about it After Love Is 1:00:59.800 --> 1:01:02.000 Gone too, because when we were getting ready to do 1:01:02.040 --> 1:01:04.680 the album with David Foster, he said, I got a 1:01:04.720 --> 1:01:10.920 song for you guys. Boy, oh yeah, and he said 1:01:11.600 --> 1:01:14.760 here check he had written it with Dave Graydon, yes, 1:01:15.720 --> 1:01:18.600 And so he sat Me and Darrel were sitting in 1:01:18.640 --> 1:01:20.480 his living room and he played it on the piano 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:23.040 and he can't sing for ship, but he's an amazing 1:01:23.120 --> 1:01:26.040 Danna player, and he was singing and he was doing 1:01:26.120 --> 1:01:31.560 after the Love Is Gone, and we're like, yeah, yeah, 1:01:32.800 --> 1:01:38.200 I know vocals due. I mean, if you hear if 1:01:38.240 --> 1:01:39.880 you think about it now, you can hear us do 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:45.200 it many major mistakes in our career. 1:01:47.000 --> 1:01:49.160 What did you think about when you heard the Earth 1:01:49.200 --> 1:01:50.920 Winning I was just curious. 1:01:50.680 --> 1:01:52.400 And he went and did it with earth Wind and Fire. 1:01:52.720 --> 1:01:55.680 When you you heard Earth Win five version, was that like? 1:01:55.800 --> 1:01:57.479 Did did you get it then? 1:01:57.840 --> 1:01:59.919 In a way that maybe you didn't get when when 1:02:00.080 --> 1:02:01.320 David trying to sing it. 1:02:01.800 --> 1:02:02.800 I got it the first time. 1:02:05.240 --> 1:02:06.480 It's also fronte. 1:02:06.520 --> 1:02:11.480 It's also a little weird because even Philip himself says 1:02:11.480 --> 1:02:15.480 that that song for him was sort of like, yeah, 1:02:15.480 --> 1:02:18.680 it was a success, but you know, you also got 1:02:18.720 --> 1:02:22.680 to understand that Charles Stephanie just died and they I'm 1:02:22.720 --> 1:02:25.160 not saying they got back. It's weird to think of 1:02:25.240 --> 1:02:28.680 all in all as the earthword and fire gets by 1:02:28.800 --> 1:02:31.480 off the skin of their teeth. But just the fact 1:02:31.520 --> 1:02:38.160 that Marie was able to make that record without Charles 1:02:38.400 --> 1:02:42.160 and still do something lind blowing so wanted he had 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:44.959 that one record in him and then you know, called 1:02:45.040 --> 1:02:47.960 him for David to help him. But I remember a 1:02:48.080 --> 1:02:52.280 lot of fans kind of feeling the same way about 1:02:52.320 --> 1:02:55.400 After the Love Is Going is maybe like about cool 1:02:55.440 --> 1:03:01.360 in the Gang's here celebration or like yeah, it's like that. 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:03.640 But now I think about it, man, it had all 1:03:04.040 --> 1:03:07.640 had all of it done after the Love Is Going, 1:03:08.080 --> 1:03:12.400 I think that that would have with the right musicianship, 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:16.640 that probably could have just ousted Bobby Callwell. 1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:19.000 Just as far as love the. 1:03:18.880 --> 1:03:26.240 Definitive slow jam like yeah the Blue Eye like that, I. 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:29.960 Mean, yeah, we would have crushed it. 1:03:30.000 --> 1:03:31.760 But it speaks to David Foster because the song was 1:03:31.800 --> 1:03:32.520 banging either way. 1:03:33.160 --> 1:03:35.840 Hey listen, Dave. David Foster wrote a great so he's 1:03:35.880 --> 1:03:39.920 an incredibly talented amazing guy, but he wasn't right for 1:03:40.080 --> 1:03:42.080 us as a producer. But at least, you know, we 1:03:42.080 --> 1:03:44.440 did get to work with him for a couple of albums. 1:03:44.720 --> 1:03:47.840 And then you mentioned Static. We brought David to New 1:03:47.960 --> 1:03:51.400 York to record that record because we didn't want to 1:03:51.400 --> 1:03:53.760 be in l A anymore. And he in the middle 1:03:53.800 --> 1:03:55.640 of that record, he said, what am I doing here? 1:03:55.640 --> 1:03:57.920 You guys are making this record yourself. You don't need me. 1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:00.200 And that was the last time we ever us an 1:04:00.200 --> 1:04:01.000 outside producer. 1:04:01.880 --> 1:04:05.960 It's almost like you guys became a brand new group 1:04:07.080 --> 1:04:08.480 with the Voices record. 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:15.760 Another another career misstep. Really we uh we We were 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:18.040 finally back in New York where we wanted to be, 1:04:18.360 --> 1:04:21.520 and we had a band that could that we finally 1:04:21.560 --> 1:04:24.440 achieved what we knew we needed to do. We had 1:04:24.480 --> 1:04:27.560 developed a live band that could play live and kick 1:04:27.600 --> 1:04:31.280 ass and we could take them in the studio and that. 1:04:31.600 --> 1:04:34.040 But we were also producing ourselves. There was no one 1:04:34.040 --> 1:04:36.480 else except us in the engineer and so we did it. 1:04:36.680 --> 1:04:39.040 We made the kind of record we wanted to make, 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:42.600 and I think it was just a very inspiring time. 1:04:43.280 --> 1:04:47.440 Great musicians, great songs, and it was just it was 1:04:47.880 --> 1:04:49.680 it was happening. We were we were glad to be 1:04:49.720 --> 1:04:53.280 out of LA and I think that we had a 1:04:53.640 --> 1:04:55.800 New York had a big energy in nineteen eighty, you know, 1:04:56.400 --> 1:04:57.920 and we kind of tapped into it. 1:04:58.000 --> 1:05:03.280 Speaking speaking of your bands, you know, by that point 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:06.000 at least, that to me was like the last era 1:05:06.240 --> 1:05:10.800 of musicianship where not only did you care about the artists, 1:05:10.800 --> 1:05:15.160 but you also cared for their band too. And you 1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:21.160 guys had a really charismatic band. Longtime fans will instantly 1:05:21.200 --> 1:05:24.560 recognize that. You know, the great g Smith was your 1:05:24.560 --> 1:05:30.040 guitar player long before he was a Yeah, the SNL 1:05:30.200 --> 1:05:33.440 musical director of like the eighties and whatnot. 1:05:34.920 --> 1:05:38.920 Also Tom t boam Walk. 1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:40.520 One of the greatest of all time. 1:05:41.040 --> 1:05:43.600 Dude, do you know how crust I was so Steve? 1:05:43.640 --> 1:05:46.520 Do you remember they were coming. 1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:52.400 On the ninth show to perform and they had to 1:05:52.440 --> 1:05:58.400 cancel because we booked you in twenty ten and Tom 1:05:58.480 --> 1:05:59.560 had passed. 1:06:00.360 --> 1:06:04.200 The morning the morning of Yes, but could you talk 1:06:04.200 --> 1:06:06.760 about that band, but just your whole. 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:12.680 Just your whole crew by that point, like is eighty 1:06:12.760 --> 1:06:16.200 when you sort of solidified that band. 1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:18.920 Yeah, that's when it started. That's when that band jailed 1:06:19.000 --> 1:06:22.800 right after the Voices album and that band uh Here 1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:26.440 again was finally the you know, we still were in 1:06:26.480 --> 1:06:30.080 that search for that ultimate band that could play live 1:06:30.120 --> 1:06:32.160 and be in the studio and that that's when we 1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:36.760 found h. Ge joined us first, and he brought in 1:06:36.840 --> 1:06:40.520 Mickey Curry on drums. Right. Mickey was a friend of 1:06:40.560 --> 1:06:43.080 his who had played in bar bands with him, and 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:45.960 Mickey had never played in a professional band other than 1:06:46.000 --> 1:06:49.440 you know before us. When we had Ge and Mickey. 1:06:50.440 --> 1:06:52.280 It's kind of a funny story. We were looking for 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:55.720 a bass player and we we did some auditions at 1:06:55.840 --> 1:06:57.400 s I R. I don't know if you got time 1:06:57.400 --> 1:06:57.880 for this. 1:06:57.760 --> 1:06:59.120 But totally. 1:07:00.320 --> 1:07:02.600 We were looking. We had Ge and Mickey and we 1:07:02.640 --> 1:07:04.400 really needed it. We knew we needed a really great 1:07:04.440 --> 1:07:08.320 bass player and we had done some auditions and most 1:07:08.360 --> 1:07:11.120 of the guys were not up to up to it. 1:07:11.160 --> 1:07:13.920 And we had come down to two guys and there 1:07:13.960 --> 1:07:16.560 was this one kid from Long Island. He was tall 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:19.720 and skinny, he had a great haircut, he was a 1:07:19.800 --> 1:07:25.040 good looking guy. And then there was Tom Woke who 1:07:25.440 --> 1:07:27.320 had not been named t Bone yet. He was just 1:07:27.400 --> 1:07:31.000 Tom Woke, right, and he was kind of a you know, 1:07:31.040 --> 1:07:33.880 he kind of wore flannel shirts and a cap, and 1:07:33.920 --> 1:07:36.760 he lived in Austin and New York. And you know, 1:07:37.120 --> 1:07:39.720 they were both really good players, right. We didn't you know, 1:07:39.760 --> 1:07:41.360 we didn't play with them a lot, but we we 1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:43.360 kind of tested them out. So it came down to 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:46.640 these two guys. Right, so we finally had the finals. 1:07:46.680 --> 1:07:48.800 We had the we're gonna have the audition between these 1:07:48.840 --> 1:07:52.360 two bass players. So the guy comes in, the kid 1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:54.680 from Long Island, the good looking guy comes in, and 1:07:54.720 --> 1:07:56.520 he was kind of cocky. He felt like he had 1:07:56.520 --> 1:07:59.040 the gig. And you know, we played a couple of 1:07:59.080 --> 1:08:02.440 songs and he was good. You know, so after and 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:05.960 T Bone came in, No, no, I'm sorry, hold on. 1:08:06.240 --> 1:08:08.840 T Bone came in first and he played. He was amazing, 1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:12.560 and he left. And then the other kid came in 1:08:12.840 --> 1:08:15.240 and he played, and after he was done, he felt 1:08:15.280 --> 1:08:17.759 like he really was in the band. And I remember 1:08:17.800 --> 1:08:20.960 he turned around to us and he said, actually turned 1:08:20.960 --> 1:08:23.920 around to Darryl and we were sitting around, and he said, hey, Daryl, 1:08:23.920 --> 1:08:25.400 when I'm in the band, I think I should sing 1:08:25.479 --> 1:08:31.840 kiss on my list. And remember Daryl turned abound and said, hey, John, 1:08:31.880 --> 1:08:32.840 go get the balld guy. 1:08:36.200 --> 1:08:37.000 You're serious. 1:08:37.720 --> 1:08:42.880 Yeah, Darrel said, let's get the ball guy, and that's 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:45.000 how we got That's how we got t Bone man. 1:08:45.040 --> 1:08:47.160 It was the best decision we ever made. 1:08:47.240 --> 1:08:53.519 Ever talked to himself out a gig. Wow, he didn't eat. 1:08:53.960 --> 1:08:56.280 Was he serious or just don't know whether he was 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:58.160 serious or not. But if he wasn't serious, it was 1:08:58.160 --> 1:09:02.559 an asshole. So it doesn't matter word. 1:09:03.320 --> 1:09:06.519 One voice is the original voice. 1:09:06.880 --> 1:09:10.880 The original version of every Time You Go Away was 1:09:11.000 --> 1:09:15.240 on that record? Yeah, Was that ever released as a 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:17.439 single off that record? Was that just an album cut? 1:09:17.720 --> 1:09:20.280 It was? It was the last track on the B side. 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:22.080 And you know, back in the days when you're making 1:09:22.160 --> 1:09:25.240 vinyl records, the last track on the B side was 1:09:25.240 --> 1:09:28.599 was either the art record that you couldn't fit anywhere 1:09:28.600 --> 1:09:32.640 else or it was like the throwaway record, and he 1:09:32.760 --> 1:09:35.479 didn't think of it. If you listen to our version, 1:09:35.600 --> 1:09:39.840 it sounds like a Stone Stacks, Volt Stamm and Dave track. 1:09:40.120 --> 1:09:43.479 I mean it is. It's real, authentic and real raw. 1:09:44.000 --> 1:09:48.080 And you know, to give Paul Young credit, those guys 1:09:48.120 --> 1:09:50.160 heard it and they turned it into a great pop song. 1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:53.599 But but if you listen to our version, our versions, 1:09:53.680 --> 1:09:56.400 I think is great too. But it's not a single. 1:09:56.479 --> 1:09:57.479 It's not a pop single. 1:09:58.360 --> 1:10:04.519 Longtime QLs head should also know that piano Palladino is 1:10:04.560 --> 1:10:08.439 playing based on the Paul Young version of every Time 1:10:08.479 --> 1:10:10.680 You Go Away. 1:10:13.600 --> 1:10:15.960 Why were they two album covers for voices? 1:10:16.160 --> 1:10:19.479 Because because we were trying to control everything, we didn't 1:10:19.479 --> 1:10:21.360 want the record company to tell us what to do, 1:10:21.720 --> 1:10:24.120 so we made our own album covers black and white. 1:10:24.320 --> 1:10:26.080 And we didn't know what to do. So we took 1:10:26.240 --> 1:10:27.720 a picture of Darryl and a picture of me and 1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:30.679 we tore him in half and we pasted it together 1:10:31.000 --> 1:10:32.760 and we sent it to the record company, said put 1:10:32.800 --> 1:10:35.519 this on the cover, and they they didn't want to 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:36.960 do it, but they did it because they had to 1:10:37.600 --> 1:10:40.679 they because we made them do it. And what happened 1:10:40.800 --> 1:10:43.760 was the record got released. We were really popular in 1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:46.680 Japan at the time and they we were going to 1:10:46.760 --> 1:10:49.559 do the Japanese tour, and the Japanese record company said, 1:10:49.600 --> 1:10:52.280 we hate this record album cover, and so they made 1:10:52.280 --> 1:10:56.200 their own album cover without telling us. So when we 1:10:56.240 --> 1:10:58.519 got to Japan, there was that album cover with me 1:10:58.640 --> 1:11:03.880 with the pink pants, right yeah, and the Japanese people 1:11:04.000 --> 1:11:06.559 they had that picture. It was a publicity picture there 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:08.559 and they just stuck it on the album. They didn't 1:11:08.560 --> 1:11:10.640 even tell us, and we said, hey, what, so we 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:12.400 get to Japan, we have a new we have a 1:11:12.439 --> 1:11:15.320 new album cover, and so that's so. Then America re 1:11:15.479 --> 1:11:17.559 released the album with that Japanese cover. 1:11:18.760 --> 1:11:21.320 That's crazy because I like the black and white version better. 1:11:22.160 --> 1:11:24.320 That's because you have good taste with. 1:11:24.320 --> 1:11:28.000 The transition of the eighties, were you guys thinking about, 1:11:28.160 --> 1:11:31.880 you know, the versioning new wave movement or the stuff 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:34.880 that like Gary Numan was doing with drum machine technology 1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:39.879 and whatnot, Like how how is modern technology coming into 1:11:39.920 --> 1:11:41.080 to play with the band? 1:11:41.920 --> 1:11:42.480 Uh? 1:11:42.880 --> 1:11:46.040 Starting with that, because I think it was notable to 1:11:46.200 --> 1:11:50.320 not just use the drum machine as a click track, 1:11:51.800 --> 1:11:54.760 but to actually make it part of the song. 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:58.320 Were we were using something called a rolling comfy rhythm. 1:11:58.720 --> 1:12:01.920 It was a little wooden little wooden box, little square box. 1:12:02.240 --> 1:12:05.879 It had four presets rock one rock, two bossa Nova 1:12:05.920 --> 1:12:09.800 and samba, and you had a rotary knob that would 1:12:09.960 --> 1:12:12.559 you could adjust the tempo by a rotary nob. But 1:12:12.600 --> 1:12:14.360 it didn't tell you how what the temple was. It 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:17.120 was just you just had a feeling. We would use 1:12:17.160 --> 1:12:19.840 that for a feel for just when we were trying 1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:22.360 you know, kind of going over the track and trying 1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:26.599 to get the right tempo, the right field. What happened 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:28.280 with Kiss on My List. Kiss on My List was 1:12:28.320 --> 1:12:30.760 never intended to be on the record. That was a 1:12:30.800 --> 1:12:35.519 song that Daryl wrote with Jana Allen, who was Sarah's sister, 1:12:35.880 --> 1:12:38.760 who was a young song writer, and she came up 1:12:38.800 --> 1:12:41.120 with the idea. Daryl helped her with it, and she 1:12:41.240 --> 1:12:44.439 wanted to make a record. So it was at the 1:12:44.520 --> 1:12:47.400 end of one of our sessions for voices and we 1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:49.400 were all done for the day and Darrel said, let me, 1:12:49.720 --> 1:12:53.880 let me just make this demo for jam because you know, 1:12:53.920 --> 1:12:56.479 I promised her i'd, you know, lay it down for her. 1:12:57.280 --> 1:12:59.479 So he went in on the piano with the with 1:12:59.520 --> 1:13:05.720 the rhythm hit rock one, you know, and you know, 1:13:06.160 --> 1:13:08.840 and he just played the song. So we didn't want 1:13:08.840 --> 1:13:11.600 to waste tape, so we recorded it at fifteen ips 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:15.040 instead of thirty ips because it was a throwaway. It 1:13:15.040 --> 1:13:18.320 was a demo, So after it was done, it was 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:21.920 just the piano and the copy rhythm and we played it. 1:13:22.320 --> 1:13:24.040 I guess Darrek played it, might have played it for 1:13:24.080 --> 1:13:27.000 Tommy Mattola or someone, and everybody flipped out. And said, 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:30.320 that's amazing. You guys got to cut this. So we 1:13:30.360 --> 1:13:33.960 didn't really want to recut it because it sounded really 1:13:34.000 --> 1:13:36.080 good the way it was. It was on fifteen ips, 1:13:36.320 --> 1:13:39.320 So the song has this kind of warbly thickness to it. 1:13:39.720 --> 1:13:40.559 Yes, it does. 1:13:41.000 --> 1:13:43.720 And all we did was add add a couple of 1:13:43.760 --> 1:13:47.799 instruments to it, bass, guitar, you know, some little pads, 1:13:48.360 --> 1:13:50.800 and that's the way we put it out. So it 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:53.880 really it was supposed to be a demo and that's 1:13:53.920 --> 1:13:56.240 why we kept a copy rhythm on it, just like that. 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:01.679 I always wanted to know go on my forty five. 1:14:02.479 --> 1:14:07.479 On my forty five of Kiss on My List, I 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:10.759 believe the B side was Africa. Is that you guys 1:14:10.960 --> 1:14:14.400 doing a sort of a your Bo Diddley homage there? 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:16.040 Or Yeah? 1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:18.160 That was my That was my song that I wrote 1:14:18.200 --> 1:14:21.519 for my girlfriend at the time, who was a model 1:14:21.600 --> 1:14:24.519 working around the world, and she was she was in Africa, 1:14:24.600 --> 1:14:25.280 and I just. 1:14:25.200 --> 1:14:27.839 Thought it was kind of funny Africa. 1:14:28.280 --> 1:14:31.760 Yeah, like I don't know, it was kind of feel Yeah, 1:14:31.800 --> 1:14:35.559 Africa was just one of those songs where I constantly 1:14:35.880 --> 1:14:38.000 had it on rotation on my forty five. You know, 1:14:38.000 --> 1:14:40.800 if you put the arm over to the right. Then 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:42.720 you're gonna have the song repeat over and over and 1:14:42.760 --> 1:14:47.519 over again. And I just always remembered, like the summer 1:14:47.520 --> 1:14:50.880 of nineteen eighty, like that was always the I just 1:14:50.920 --> 1:14:53.519 always kept it on the B side for the Private 1:14:53.560 --> 1:14:55.560 Eyes record. All right, I got to cut to the 1:14:55.640 --> 1:15:00.920 chase man, you know. And due to the lasting power 1:15:01.080 --> 1:15:05.679 of it to this day, you know, DJ gigs are 1:15:05.720 --> 1:15:08.160 not complete for half of America's DJ days. 1:15:08.320 --> 1:15:11.200 If I can't go for that is not. 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:17.040 Played, Could you please give us the story of how 1:15:17.120 --> 1:15:21.519 that song came to be because it's such it's such 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:23.519 a reverence the way that it's just stripped down and 1:15:23.640 --> 1:15:25.920 sounds sounds so revolutionary. 1:15:26.040 --> 1:15:31.400 That the session was over, everyone had gone. Me, Darryl 1:15:31.479 --> 1:15:33.800 and the engineer were in the studio and we were 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:39.280 an electric lady. And Darryl walked out into the studio 1:15:39.479 --> 1:15:42.679 with the electric piano and here again the rolling Company rhythm, 1:15:42.840 --> 1:15:45.679 which always sat on his pianel, so we could basically 1:15:45.680 --> 1:15:49.000 work through tracks. And he had an idea. I guess 1:15:49.040 --> 1:15:51.840 he had that idea in his head, but he never 1:15:51.880 --> 1:15:54.280 said anything to me or anybody. It was just maybe 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:57.840 something that was just going around his head. And he 1:15:58.400 --> 1:16:02.920 hit rock one and whatever tempo was on it, I 1:16:02.920 --> 1:16:05.880 don't know whatever that was said at and he just 1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:09.040 started playing his left hand. He just started playing bong 1:16:09.160 --> 1:16:14.080 and unmo dong goo goom go, and then he started 1:16:14.080 --> 1:16:16.800 playing and then he said, man, hey, John, get your guitar. 1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:20.240 And I got the guitar and he actually suggested to 1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:22.600 me to play this line. He goes play play. I 1:16:22.680 --> 1:16:25.400 muted like a like a funk line, and I stuck 1:16:25.640 --> 1:16:29.679 turning unt dunt, dunlearn it throw, and all of a sudden, 1:16:29.800 --> 1:16:32.759 it just like went like this. You know, it was like, okay, 1:16:32.960 --> 1:16:36.000 there's this does need anything? This is like it right here. 1:16:36.400 --> 1:16:39.559 It's the left hand of the keyboard, the guitar thing, 1:16:40.400 --> 1:16:43.680 and that was it on that song. The only thing 1:16:43.680 --> 1:16:47.320 that's on that song is is the keyboard, the guitar, 1:16:48.080 --> 1:16:55.160 sax solo and one synthesizer thing right and and then 1:16:55.160 --> 1:16:58.600 background vocals. That's the whole song was. 1:16:58.680 --> 1:17:03.160 Whose idea was to make it sound as stripped down 1:17:03.240 --> 1:17:07.520 because to me, that drum machine is such a radical 1:17:08.720 --> 1:17:09.200 sound to it. 1:17:09.240 --> 1:17:10.400 I mean, there's two versions of it. 1:17:10.479 --> 1:17:14.479 The twelve inch has more brighter drum mixed to it, 1:17:14.520 --> 1:17:16.840 but the album cut version. 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:19.720 I can't describe to me. 1:17:20.840 --> 1:17:25.040 It was almost like an improved version of the drums 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:25.960 that slide was. 1:17:33.920 --> 1:17:36.720 That album you know, there's lit going on. That had 1:17:36.760 --> 1:17:39.880 that same quality to it that you said. It was 1:17:39.920 --> 1:17:43.800 stripped down and raw and it was dry. There was 1:17:43.840 --> 1:17:47.120 just this thing. I mean sometimes when when you know 1:17:47.240 --> 1:17:49.280 you don't have to have a lot if it's the 1:17:49.360 --> 1:17:53.320 right combination of you know, of tonalities. When you get 1:17:53.320 --> 1:17:56.479 the right tonalities and they're not fighting each other, they 1:17:56.520 --> 1:17:59.040 all have their place, you know, they got they're all 1:17:59.080 --> 1:18:02.040 in the right place. That's all you need. You don't 1:18:02.080 --> 1:18:04.479 need anything else. And I think we were We were 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:08.080 smart enough to realize that it was the groove was 1:18:08.080 --> 1:18:11.120 was was major and it was just that was it. 1:18:11.120 --> 1:18:11.960 That's all you needed. 1:18:12.800 --> 1:18:15.320 No One told you, guys like this group might be 1:18:15.439 --> 1:18:19.280 undercooked a little bit, like it needs something else or nobody. 1:18:19.720 --> 1:18:21.799 Nobody told us anything because we never let. 1:18:21.640 --> 1:18:24.599 Anyone in the studio. I love it. 1:18:25.520 --> 1:18:30.120 Just the engineer engineering the band. Yeah, no record comfort people. 1:18:30.880 --> 1:18:33.120 It's the great engineers from Electric Lady. I don't know 1:18:33.160 --> 1:18:35.320 what's what's going on, must be something in the water 1:18:35.400 --> 1:18:38.920 over there. I have a question for you. John was 1:18:38.960 --> 1:18:41.360 private eyed the first album that you did go to 1:18:41.439 --> 1:18:43.360 Electric Lady forks. I know you went there for a 1:18:43.400 --> 1:18:44.080 few Yeah. 1:18:44.120 --> 1:18:47.000 I think we did voices at the Hit Factory. I'm 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:49.800 pretty sure voices was done at the Hit Factory. Uh. 1:18:49.840 --> 1:18:53.320 And then we started Private Eye at the Hit Factory. 1:18:53.920 --> 1:18:55.880 And Darryl and I both lived in the village. We 1:18:55.960 --> 1:19:00.080 both lived very very close to Eighth Street, and we 1:19:00.160 --> 1:19:02.639 just wanted to walk to the studio. That's that's why 1:19:02.680 --> 1:19:05.240 we picked Electric Ladio. We wanted to be able to walk. 1:19:05.320 --> 1:19:06.759 I wanted to be able to walk to the studio 1:19:06.800 --> 1:19:09.280 and walk to Balducci's and that was that. 1:19:09.320 --> 1:19:13.680 Was that was the criteria for for for me, at 1:19:13.760 --> 1:19:16.479 least my era of Electric Lady. 1:19:17.720 --> 1:19:20.520 There's this you know, revered thing for. 1:19:20.080 --> 1:19:23.599 For Hendrix, like wow, was the House of Indrix. But 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:27.240 back then was it like that or was it just like, Hey, 1:19:27.280 --> 1:19:30.400 there's a studio on Eighth Street, let's just go there 1:19:30.400 --> 1:19:33.960 and make a record. Yeah, yeah, I mean sure didn't 1:19:33.960 --> 1:19:35.200 have a vibe to it. 1:19:35.200 --> 1:19:37.120 It was, Yeah, it had a vibe. There was no doubt. 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:39.080 It was at a vibe. And Eddie Kramer used to 1:19:39.240 --> 1:19:42.320 used to pop in and out, uh, you know, and 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:43.880 and you know, you walk in there and there was 1:19:43.880 --> 1:19:47.679 that big mural that went down the hallway, psychedelic mural. 1:19:48.560 --> 1:19:50.920 But but the reality was it was on a street 1:19:50.960 --> 1:19:52.080 and we could walk to it. 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:56.040 So okay, it almost took ten years for you to 1:19:56.120 --> 1:20:00.919 reach the promise of what you were I guess initially 1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:04.800 planning on doing back in the early Atlantic days. But 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:08.080 as a duo, Like, how are you two getting along 1:20:08.120 --> 1:20:09.720 with this newfound success? 1:20:10.120 --> 1:20:13.920 We've always gotten along really well. We we we really 1:20:14.120 --> 1:20:17.519 leave each other alone. You know. Back in the early days, 1:20:17.520 --> 1:20:21.120 you know, we were together constantly and traveling constantly always, 1:20:21.240 --> 1:20:23.960 you know, everything was shared. But as we got older 1:20:23.960 --> 1:20:25.880 and as we got more successful, you know, we lived 1:20:25.920 --> 1:20:29.680 separate lives with separate families, you know. And but but 1:20:29.760 --> 1:20:33.599 we you know, we met as teenagers. So it's almost 1:20:33.640 --> 1:20:35.760 like a brotherhood. You know, it's almost like it's a 1:20:35.800 --> 1:20:38.439 family thing. You know, we don't have to even talk. 1:20:38.880 --> 1:20:41.439 We can be a part for long periods of time, 1:20:41.880 --> 1:20:44.160 and we get together and it's like time stops. It's 1:20:44.320 --> 1:20:46.360 it's a very unusual thing. 1:20:46.640 --> 1:20:46.760 Uh. 1:20:46.960 --> 1:20:50.520 And it's amazing, to be honest with you, that we 1:20:50.520 --> 1:20:53.439 were still able to work together. You know, we we 1:20:53.560 --> 1:20:56.840 do our own thing. We do separate projects. Uh, you know, 1:20:56.880 --> 1:21:00.280 I'm gonna I'm doing a tour next week, actually an 1:21:00.280 --> 1:21:03.559 acoustic tour with a guitar player friend of mine here 1:21:03.600 --> 1:21:06.880 in Nashville, And Darryl's going to do a tour. He's 1:21:06.920 --> 1:21:10.679 doing some a new solo album tour, and then we'll 1:21:10.680 --> 1:21:13.000 come back and play together, you know, probably over the summer. 1:21:13.040 --> 1:21:16.439 So you know, I know that, I for one, am 1:21:16.560 --> 1:21:21.240 very tired of anytime someone sees me alone in public, 1:21:22.520 --> 1:21:25.640 nine times out of ten they're going to ask me 1:21:26.920 --> 1:21:28.680 where's the rest of the guys at. 1:21:28.760 --> 1:21:32.559 Where's the band? I'm almost certain you get asked more 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:33.320 every day. 1:21:33.720 --> 1:21:35.000 Yeah, where's all? 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:38.200 You know they think that they think that we just 1:21:38.360 --> 1:21:40.680 you know, we're just well, you know, our company is 1:21:40.680 --> 1:21:43.880 called Two Headed Monster, So that gives you an idea 1:21:43.920 --> 1:21:46.160 of what, you know, what it's all about. 1:21:46.640 --> 1:21:49.040 I remember one time I was sitting in a dressing room, 1:21:49.080 --> 1:21:51.479 and it wasn't long ago, sitting in a dressing room 1:21:51.479 --> 1:21:53.720 and I was by myself in the dressing room, and 1:21:53.760 --> 1:21:56.800 one of these security guys at the venue stuck his 1:21:56.800 --> 1:21:58.800 head in dressing and goes and he looked at me. 1:21:59.360 --> 1:22:01.840 There was nobody else in the room, he said, which 1:22:01.840 --> 1:22:07.800 one of you guys is holding oats? I said, I said, 1:22:08.439 --> 1:22:10.400 I guess, I guess that's me. 1:22:10.520 --> 1:22:13.960 I don't know, all right. So for H two, oh, 1:22:15.240 --> 1:22:19.240 first of all, while on this streak, what is the 1:22:20.720 --> 1:22:22.599 what is the pressure like for you? 1:22:22.840 --> 1:22:27.880 Like going into prived, I said, it's like, damn, we 1:22:27.960 --> 1:22:31.960 got to top you know, voices And with HGO it's like, 1:22:32.080 --> 1:22:35.720 oh man, we had like four top ten singles with 1:22:36.320 --> 1:22:41.080 the Privateized record. Like, are you feeling the pressure at 1:22:41.080 --> 1:22:44.400 the time or is it still like we still have 1:22:44.479 --> 1:22:47.559 to prove ourselves or do you now feel like by 1:22:47.600 --> 1:22:49.880 this point at least like you've arrived. 1:22:50.720 --> 1:22:53.080 I think, well, we definitely felt like we arrived. We 1:22:53.120 --> 1:22:55.120 felt like we were doing the right thing. You know, 1:22:55.560 --> 1:22:58.680 we had to achieve what we wanted to achieve, were 1:22:58.760 --> 1:23:01.760 producing ourselves, had the band that we wanted that we 1:23:01.800 --> 1:23:04.400 could take live and be in the studio, and we 1:23:04.439 --> 1:23:08.160 thought that that's we were there and things were rolling. 1:23:08.240 --> 1:23:11.759 You know, the band was amazing, the vibe was amazing, 1:23:12.479 --> 1:23:16.040 We're writing really great songs. And I don't think that 1:23:16.120 --> 1:23:18.920 there was no exterior pressure. We didn't have pressure from 1:23:18.960 --> 1:23:21.479 the record company. I mean it might have been there. 1:23:22.200 --> 1:23:24.880 We never let it get to us. We just just 1:23:24.920 --> 1:23:27.240 wanted to make a great record and we just went 1:23:27.280 --> 1:23:27.920 in there and did it. 1:23:28.439 --> 1:23:32.639 I've heard rumors of it, but can you tell me 1:23:32.800 --> 1:23:36.400 whether or not. I don't know if it happened that 1:23:36.720 --> 1:23:39.320 we are the World Sessions or whatever. Was it truth 1:23:39.360 --> 1:23:43.320 to the rumor that Michael Jackson actually told you guys 1:23:43.640 --> 1:23:48.960 that Billy Jean was inspired by the DNA of I 1:23:48.960 --> 1:23:49.920 can't go for that. 1:23:49.920 --> 1:23:52.760 That. He didn't say that to me. He may have 1:23:52.840 --> 1:23:56.360 said that to Darryl. He did say. He came backstage 1:23:56.360 --> 1:23:58.640 with his brothers when we were playing in California in 1:23:58.760 --> 1:24:02.080 LA and he said, he said, I can't go for that. 1:24:02.080 --> 1:24:04.439 It's my favorite song to dance too. He goes, I dance, 1:24:04.680 --> 1:24:06.560 he goes, I work out all my dance routines to 1:24:06.640 --> 1:24:11.040 that grouve. So just that and that alone kind of 1:24:11.040 --> 1:24:13.519 tells you that if he liked it that much, he 1:24:13.600 --> 1:24:16.000 must have said to himself, Man, I'm gonna write something 1:24:16.080 --> 1:24:16.720 sounds like that. 1:24:17.240 --> 1:24:21.920 Yeah, what about so with That's what that said? Man 1:24:21.920 --> 1:24:23.000 Eater and part Time. 1:24:22.840 --> 1:24:28.120 Lover, Oh, what are your thoughts on on that? 1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:31.200 You know, Man, I wrote the chorus of man Eater 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:33.559 as a reggae song because I had come back from 1:24:33.600 --> 1:24:43.439 Jamaica and wrote I wrote it as I wrote it 1:24:43.439 --> 1:24:44.240 as a reggae song. 1:24:44.280 --> 1:24:48.840 It was like it was like it was like you know, 1:24:58.720 --> 1:24:59.040 and so. 1:24:59.040 --> 1:25:02.640 I wrote, it's like like lovers rock kind of thing. 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:04.360 Yeah, and I and I and I played it for 1:25:04.439 --> 1:25:06.280 Darryl and he was like, man, he goes, I love this, 1:25:06.360 --> 1:25:08.320 he goes, he goes, I don't know, man, he goes, 1:25:08.320 --> 1:25:10.880 I don't know if reggae groove is right for Hallos. 1:25:11.080 --> 1:25:12.680 And I said, well, what do you got? And he 1:25:13.080 --> 1:25:18.200 went on, gone, gone, gone, okay. And I mean, at 1:25:18.280 --> 1:25:24.600 least that was smart enough to listen to him. 1:25:24.760 --> 1:25:27.960 You know the question I always wanted to know. All right, 1:25:29.560 --> 1:25:31.160 this is more of an arrangement question. 1:25:32.439 --> 1:25:37.559 Sometimes there will there will be some songs that get 1:25:37.600 --> 1:25:43.080 released and in your mind and retrospect in your mind, 1:25:43.840 --> 1:25:46.360 you think that the course happens a lot. 1:25:46.680 --> 1:25:47.760 Great example is. 1:25:47.800 --> 1:25:52.800 Uh uh Fonte, the the rock Master Scott and the 1:25:52.880 --> 1:25:57.599 Dynamic Threes. The roof is on fire like of course 1:25:57.640 --> 1:26:01.559 that powerful, but it only gets said once in the song. 1:26:01.640 --> 1:26:02.280 And that's like. 1:26:03.600 --> 1:26:06.559 That's what I said, Yeah, you gotta gotta you gotta 1:26:06.600 --> 1:26:07.600 wait five minutes. 1:26:07.360 --> 1:26:08.719 Before it even gets to that part. 1:26:09.200 --> 1:26:14.719 And for me, a song like one on one, I 1:26:14.760 --> 1:26:17.800 always swore to God that the whole back and forth 1:26:17.840 --> 1:26:20.639 between you and Darryl a fan. 1:26:20.560 --> 1:26:22.360 I get to night one on what a fan I 1:26:22.439 --> 1:26:25.479 get you? Nah, Like that only happens once. 1:26:25.840 --> 1:26:31.360 Yet in my mind, that's that's a course that just 1:26:31.400 --> 1:26:35.160 goes on and on, which is so tricky. 1:26:35.360 --> 1:26:39.720 Whoh and that's a very intricate Uh. 1:26:40.880 --> 1:26:43.760 That song has a lot of intricate background parts, like 1:26:43.960 --> 1:26:47.560 whose idea was it too? I'm surprised that it was 1:26:47.600 --> 1:26:50.160 a hit because you guys didn't take the easy route 1:26:50.960 --> 1:26:52.960 and just saying the easy part of the course, but 1:26:53.439 --> 1:26:55.439 there were other sub courses in there. 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:59.360 We really pride ourselves on those background arrangements. And that's 1:26:59.360 --> 1:27:02.200 a Philly thing. I mean, that's really that's coming from 1:27:02.240 --> 1:27:05.920 that doop background vocal thing. And if you listen to 1:27:06.000 --> 1:27:07.400 some of our songs, and I think a lot of 1:27:07.439 --> 1:27:10.360 people don't realize this, but a lot of our songs, 1:27:10.960 --> 1:27:16.080 the hook is actually the background part. Yes, it's it's 1:27:16.200 --> 1:27:19.080 very unusual. People don't realize that, but the hook, like 1:27:19.120 --> 1:27:21.759 We're out of touch, that's just a giant background vocal 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:25.760 and the lead is bouncing off the backgrounds. We do 1:27:25.880 --> 1:27:28.680 that a lot, and that's a thing, you know. 1:27:29.200 --> 1:27:31.839 You want to know how I know that that's true. 1:27:32.439 --> 1:27:39.080 Maybe five years ago I got the Master two. I 1:27:39.120 --> 1:27:43.600 can't go for that, And just as an experiment, I 1:27:43.680 --> 1:27:46.639 took the vocals and put them over where the background 1:27:46.640 --> 1:27:48.479 should be, and I took the backgrounds and put them 1:27:48.520 --> 1:27:49.400 where the vocals were. 1:27:49.720 --> 1:27:54.759 Yeah me to this, no, yeah, yeah to this day. 1:27:54.920 --> 1:27:57.160 I mean I've been playing it and my DJ sets 1:27:57.160 --> 1:28:02.280 to see if one person notices that Darryl singing over 1:28:02.320 --> 1:28:05.160 the chorus music and the chorus is over it. Not 1:28:05.280 --> 1:28:08.040 one person has noticed it yet. And that's all the 1:28:08.040 --> 1:28:09.240 only version I played. 1:28:09.400 --> 1:28:11.519 That's cool. I didn't realize that's that I'd like. I 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:12.280 would like to hear that. 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:17.840 How did you guys get Family Man from Mike Oldfield? 1:28:18.920 --> 1:28:22.679 That was a that was just an accident. We were 1:28:22.720 --> 1:28:27.439 making the record and one of our roadies are keyboard 1:28:27.479 --> 1:28:32.000 tech who was helping us with keyboards. He came in 1:28:32.080 --> 1:28:34.560 one day and he said, hey man. He was a 1:28:34.600 --> 1:28:37.160 big Mikeae Oldfield fan, and he said, I heard this 1:28:37.200 --> 1:28:39.559 new Michae Oldfield record. He goes, and there's a vocal 1:28:39.640 --> 1:28:44.439 on it. Because Michae Oldfield was predominantly instrumental, and he said, 1:28:44.439 --> 1:28:47.080 there's this cool song with this girl singing this vocal 1:28:47.880 --> 1:28:50.320 this vocal tune, and he said, you guys got to 1:28:50.360 --> 1:28:52.160 hear it. And we just played it for fun in 1:28:52.200 --> 1:28:54.240 the studio and we went, wow, we should cut that, 1:28:54.680 --> 1:28:56.000 and we did. We just cut it. 1:28:56.920 --> 1:29:00.559 I also remember you did two versions of that video. 1:29:00.840 --> 1:29:06.000 One version was like extremely long, like it was almost 1:29:06.200 --> 1:29:10.360 like again the early days of MTV where they just 1:29:10.400 --> 1:29:14.840 need a lot of content. I definitely remember, Yes, it 1:29:14.960 --> 1:29:16.760 cut like ten versions of Leave It. 1:29:17.800 --> 1:29:20.120 But there was two versions of. 1:29:22.200 --> 1:29:24.720 I'm just I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing, yes. 1:29:25.000 --> 1:29:28.200 Yes, yes, yes, yes, Well, Gotti and Cream. 1:29:29.160 --> 1:29:32.120 Re mixes of Owner of a Lonely Heart too, Like 1:29:32.120 --> 1:29:33.240 there's one hundred mixes. 1:29:34.000 --> 1:29:38.240 Trevor wasn't messing around, Trevor Warren. Yeah, but I remember 1:29:39.040 --> 1:29:45.479 you guys did two versions of an extended version of 1:29:46.880 --> 1:29:49.519 Family Man, which is like eight nine minutes long. 1:29:49.560 --> 1:29:53.760 And yeah, yeah, we were always doing club mixes, you 1:29:53.800 --> 1:29:55.160 know on some of those records. 1:29:55.360 --> 1:29:57.280 Did you have anything to do with that? You and 1:29:57.400 --> 1:29:58.679 Darryl or did somebody else? 1:29:58.760 --> 1:30:02.559 Just well, the first club mix that we had success 1:30:02.640 --> 1:30:07.880 with was for Satis and so with jelly Bean Benitas, right, 1:30:08.280 --> 1:30:11.439 Billy did that one, and then we then the really 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:13.920 extreme stuff that we did later on on the on 1:30:13.960 --> 1:30:17.160 the Big Bamboom Mountain by Arthur Baker. 1:30:17.120 --> 1:30:20.040 And an important summit meeting of a record you were 1:30:20.120 --> 1:30:23.400 part of USA for Africas we are the world? 1:30:23.760 --> 1:30:26.559 What was what was that experience? 1:30:26.680 --> 1:30:31.439 Like Quincy Jones and Lena Richie and Michael Jackson, they 1:30:31.479 --> 1:30:34.439 were smart because they knew that it was the American 1:30:34.520 --> 1:30:36.599 Music Awards were going on in LA. And then back 1:30:36.600 --> 1:30:38.679 in those days, you know, you only had two things. 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:41.000 You had the American Music Awards and the Grammys. They 1:30:41.000 --> 1:30:43.960 were really it was not a million different award shows 1:30:44.000 --> 1:30:47.800 like there is today. And so they knew that everybody 1:30:47.920 --> 1:30:50.040 kind of who was anybody in pop music was going 1:30:50.120 --> 1:30:53.560 to be in LA for American Music Awards because you 1:30:53.800 --> 1:30:57.519 pretty much everybody went. So they just said they they 1:30:57.520 --> 1:31:01.320 sent invitations to everybody to select people to come to 1:31:01.400 --> 1:31:05.160 the studio at A and M after the awards, and 1:31:05.280 --> 1:31:09.120 the invitation said no managers, no agents, no hangers on, 1:31:09.960 --> 1:31:12.519 just come, just come. And there was a green room 1:31:12.560 --> 1:31:15.000 out in the lobby for all the people. You know, 1:31:15.040 --> 1:31:18.880 the all the other folks and just the artists were 1:31:18.880 --> 1:31:21.280 allowed in and that was the that was brilliant because 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:23.760 all the artists left their hair down. You know, there 1:31:23.800 --> 1:31:26.960 was no hangers on and agents and managers trying to 1:31:27.000 --> 1:31:32.040 you know, control anybody, and everybody just got real. Everybody 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:36.360 got real. And I you know, I remember they had 1:31:36.400 --> 1:31:39.920 little names on on the these little steps where we 1:31:39.960 --> 1:31:43.639 all stood for the chorus, and I had I had 1:31:43.800 --> 1:31:46.040 Ray Charles was right in front of me off my 1:31:46.160 --> 1:31:49.120 left shoulder, and Bob Dylan was right behind me on 1:31:49.160 --> 1:31:52.519 my right shoulder, and I was just looking. I was 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:55.400 you know, you know, through the years, I think I've 1:31:55.400 --> 1:31:58.920 tried to be more very aware of certain moments when 1:32:00.320 --> 1:32:03.040 when I realized that maybe this is something that you know, 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:08.200 couldn't might never happen again. And I remember very distinctly 1:32:08.240 --> 1:32:10.920 being very aware of what was happening, where I was 1:32:11.439 --> 1:32:13.519 and what was going on, and I thought to myself, 1:32:13.520 --> 1:32:16.800 this is a very unique thing. And I don't know 1:32:16.800 --> 1:32:19.000 if you can see it or not, but I'll show 1:32:19.000 --> 1:32:19.320 it to you. 1:32:23.479 --> 1:32:25.160 Oh, everyone signed. 1:32:25.640 --> 1:32:27.840 Everybody sign it. I think this is the only copy 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:33.240 that exists. I mean, and I mean everybody. 1:32:33.439 --> 1:32:37.400 So we're looking at the sheet music and everyone's signature 1:32:37.840 --> 1:32:38.360 from We. 1:32:38.360 --> 1:32:38.920 Are the World. 1:32:39.280 --> 1:32:42.559 That's amazing and for once, for once, I had the 1:32:42.560 --> 1:32:44.400 presence of mind to go around and get. 1:32:44.240 --> 1:32:46.920 Everybody, oh yeah else. 1:32:47.840 --> 1:32:49.920 Even got Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder to sign this thing. 1:32:49.960 --> 1:32:55.559 So that's myself. How long was the process for you? 1:32:57.439 --> 1:32:59.560 It was a couple of hours. But you know what 1:32:59.680 --> 1:33:02.360 we did was we just sang the chorus. We said, 1:33:02.400 --> 1:33:05.120 we all sang the chorus in unison, and we said, okay, 1:33:05.280 --> 1:33:07.800 everybody just throw a harmony part on and you know, 1:33:07.840 --> 1:33:09.759 of course he had a good room for the great singers, 1:33:09.760 --> 1:33:12.680 so everybody just picked apart, sang a third third of 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:15.680 you know, octaves or whatever it was, and uh, and 1:33:15.720 --> 1:33:17.839 then everybody broke down and then they did all the 1:33:17.840 --> 1:33:19.679 the solo solo stuff. 1:33:20.360 --> 1:33:23.720 So the backgrounds were done. First one went home first year. 1:33:24.160 --> 1:33:26.879 And it didn't it didn't take long, It really didn't. 1:33:27.760 --> 1:33:29.439 There was a couple of little snap There was a 1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:32.080 couple of little issues where you know, you know, you 1:33:32.160 --> 1:33:35.439 put a bunch of a list talent in the same 1:33:35.520 --> 1:33:40.320 room and somebody's gonna think they're gonna start producing, and uh. 1:33:40.360 --> 1:33:42.920 There was a couple of little things where I won't 1:33:42.960 --> 1:33:44.559 mention any names, but Stevie. 1:33:45.240 --> 1:33:52.000 Yeah, we we had we had Hughey Lewis on this show. 1:33:52.320 --> 1:33:53.559 Did he tell you the same story? 1:33:54.560 --> 1:33:54.760 Uh? 1:33:54.880 --> 1:34:00.880 No, no, No, I don't know. I know, yeah, what's your story? 1:34:02.400 --> 1:34:02.559 You know? 1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:05.680 Stevie made some suggestions he he thought would be a 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:08.439 good idea, and it kind of kind of derailed the 1:34:08.479 --> 1:34:10.840 whole thing because they were trying to get a lot done, 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:13.920 you know. And uh and finally, you know, Quincy Jones 1:34:14.000 --> 1:34:16.880 just came out from behind the console, you know, behind 1:34:16.880 --> 1:34:20.080 the glass, and he just once Quincy came out, it 1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:22.080 was like and I remember, I think I think Ray 1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:25.040 Charles said something like, hey man, I think he said, 1:34:25.360 --> 1:34:27.600 as I recall, he said, it is his line on 1:34:27.720 --> 1:34:29.920 Michael's song. Let's just do it the way they want. 1:34:30.320 --> 1:34:32.280 And that was and that was it. Once once he 1:34:32.360 --> 1:34:33.760 said that, everything kind of. 1:34:33.720 --> 1:34:38.680 Got imagine Stevie versus Ray. 1:34:38.720 --> 1:34:39.240 I just love it. 1:34:39.800 --> 1:34:41.240 I know they were friends, and I know it's all 1:34:41.240 --> 1:34:42.799 in fun sounds hilarious. 1:34:42.840 --> 1:34:45.679 Wait you guys. Were you guys also on the sun 1:34:45.760 --> 1:34:47.639 City record as well? Yeah? 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:48.000 I was. 1:34:49.400 --> 1:34:51.519 I don't know, was that recording them the same way 1:34:51.600 --> 1:34:51.920 or was. 1:34:51.840 --> 1:34:54.880 It just like no, that was all the individual stuff. Yeah, 1:34:55.200 --> 1:34:57.400 it was a group thing, but it was small groups. 1:34:57.439 --> 1:35:01.040 I think Stephen brought different people to and it was 1:35:01.080 --> 1:35:03.439 all done in New York in a small studio in 1:35:03.479 --> 1:35:03.920 the city. 1:35:04.960 --> 1:35:08.320 You know, you guys are basically the gold standard, like 1:35:08.400 --> 1:35:13.720 for you was it Were there any regrets of that period, 1:35:14.280 --> 1:35:18.479 in that rise of being at the top of your game, 1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:22.760 of having like number one singles, number one albums, Has 1:35:23.520 --> 1:35:28.479 there been something that you haven't achieved or was that 1:35:28.520 --> 1:35:29.920 you could have redone or something. 1:35:30.360 --> 1:35:31.240 I think think that. 1:35:31.200 --> 1:35:34.439 People perhaps to realize that when you have this mega 1:35:34.520 --> 1:35:39.360 success like that in the pop world, the biggest thing 1:35:39.400 --> 1:35:42.559 that you lose is time. You lose time, and you 1:35:42.600 --> 1:35:47.120 lose you lose yourself because there's so much demands on 1:35:47.160 --> 1:35:52.240 your time for obviously to make the music, to promote 1:35:52.280 --> 1:35:55.720 the music, to tour, to play live, to write new songs. 1:35:55.960 --> 1:35:59.040 It just never seemed to end, really and I think 1:35:59.040 --> 1:36:01.439 when we got it right after, you know, we did 1:36:01.439 --> 1:36:04.320 we did three things that were really big. We did 1:36:04.560 --> 1:36:08.880 We Are the World. We did Live Time Live AID 1:36:08.960 --> 1:36:13.000 in Philadelphia at Veteran Stadium, and we headlined that with 1:36:13.360 --> 1:36:16.840 you know, with Jagger and Tina Turner and uh, and 1:36:17.640 --> 1:36:20.439 Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin, and then we did we 1:36:20.560 --> 1:36:24.080 and we had done the Apollo Theater show, right, and 1:36:24.120 --> 1:36:27.240 we also had Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin. Once we 1:36:27.320 --> 1:36:30.320 had done those three things, I think Darryl and I 1:36:30.360 --> 1:36:32.639 actually looked at each other and said, what more could 1:36:32.640 --> 1:36:37.120 we boss? Had? We had more success than we could 1:36:37.160 --> 1:36:39.960 have ever dreamed of. We had, as you said, number 1:36:39.960 --> 1:36:42.360 one records tour of the world, you know, on the 1:36:42.400 --> 1:36:45.439 top of the pop charts. And I think we I 1:36:45.479 --> 1:36:47.800 think we were smart. I think we realized that there 1:36:47.840 --> 1:36:49.360 was only one way to go from there, and. 1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:49.880 That was down. 1:36:51.560 --> 1:36:55.000 Because I don't think you can sustain that sort of success. 1:36:55.160 --> 1:36:59.280 I think it's very difficult. Very few people can sustain 1:36:59.360 --> 1:37:02.080 that sort of success for a lengthy period of time. 1:37:02.760 --> 1:37:04.759 And I think what we did was we stepped away. 1:37:04.920 --> 1:37:07.240 And maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do from 1:37:07.240 --> 1:37:09.800 a business point of view. Commercially, of course it wasn't, 1:37:10.439 --> 1:37:14.800 But it was a smart thing to do for psychic life, 1:37:15.080 --> 1:37:15.880 you know, for life. 1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:25.240 How you know how difficult or challenging was it to 1:37:25.280 --> 1:37:29.120 pull off the Kendrick and Ruffin. 1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:34.320 Project, because you know. 1:37:34.680 --> 1:37:38.919 I've read a lot of autobiographies of various Temptation members, 1:37:38.960 --> 1:37:45.439 and you know, they don't look too fondly of that 1:37:45.439 --> 1:37:48.040 that reunion album that came out in nineteen eighty one, 1:37:48.240 --> 1:37:52.400 So I don't know, I would assume that, you know, 1:37:52.439 --> 1:37:54.840 when they're doing this album with you in nineteen eighty 1:37:54.880 --> 1:38:02.120 four eighty five, that the sort of Temptations proposed seven 1:38:02.160 --> 1:38:05.559 member reunion thing went a bust and they both want 1:38:05.560 --> 1:38:07.599 their separate ways to do the separate projects. 1:38:07.640 --> 1:38:11.920 But for you, what was it like? You know, I 1:38:11.960 --> 1:38:12.400 know that you. 1:38:12.360 --> 1:38:16.680 Two were big Temptations fans, but at the time, you know, 1:38:16.880 --> 1:38:20.160 was it rose colored glasses like it was exciting or 1:38:21.479 --> 1:38:23.200 maybe I don't know. 1:38:23.520 --> 1:38:26.640 We we were asked to reopen the Apollo after the 1:38:26.680 --> 1:38:31.559 Apollo had been closed for a bit for to be renovated, renovated, 1:38:31.680 --> 1:38:33.120 and it was a big you know, we Darren and 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:34.559 I felt like it was a big honor. It was 1:38:34.560 --> 1:38:36.240 a you know, it was a charity event. It was 1:38:36.240 --> 1:38:39.519 in New York City, obviously, and it was a big 1:38:39.560 --> 1:38:42.559 honor to be asked, you know, to reopen the Apollo, 1:38:43.040 --> 1:38:45.120 and we want to do something special, and so what 1:38:45.160 --> 1:38:47.599 we wanted to do was we wanted to go back 1:38:47.720 --> 1:38:50.240 to the so some of the music that kind of 1:38:50.280 --> 1:38:52.960 brought me and Darryl together back in the sixties, and 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:56.439 that was our mutual love for the Temptations and Eddie, 1:38:56.640 --> 1:39:00.240 you know, Eddie was Eddie's was a sweetheart. Eddie was 1:39:00.280 --> 1:39:06.640 playing in holiday inns in Alabama. David was David was 1:39:06.640 --> 1:39:13.000 a He was very challenging, challenging individual, and but we 1:39:13.080 --> 1:39:16.360 managed to corral them together and we told them flat 1:39:16.400 --> 1:39:18.920 out and they said, look, here's what we want to do. 1:39:19.120 --> 1:39:22.000 We want to try to replicate the thing that we 1:39:22.080 --> 1:39:25.160 remember as teenagers when you guys were at your peak. 1:39:25.680 --> 1:39:28.120 We want to wear the suits, we want to do 1:39:28.160 --> 1:39:31.000 the steps, we want to do the whole thing. And 1:39:31.120 --> 1:39:33.080 we're on the stage at the Apollo. We want to 1:39:33.200 --> 1:39:36.439 we want to try to recapture for that moment. And 1:39:36.479 --> 1:39:38.639 it was really kind of in a way, I mean 1:39:38.680 --> 1:39:41.120 not in a way, it was really it was really 1:39:41.160 --> 1:39:44.920 me and Daryl wanting to to have that experience of 1:39:45.680 --> 1:39:50.160 performing with our teenage idols on the stage and kind 1:39:50.200 --> 1:39:52.720 of having this and to be honest with you, it 1:39:52.760 --> 1:39:54.800 was it was one of the most amazing things I've 1:39:54.840 --> 1:39:59.320 ever done, because it was like time had stopped and 1:39:59.560 --> 1:40:01.920 instead of me being in my bedroom trying to do 1:40:01.960 --> 1:40:04.920 the Temptation steps and singing those songs, I was on 1:40:05.000 --> 1:40:07.439 the stage at the Apollo doing it with them, and 1:40:07.920 --> 1:40:10.160 they were so cool about it, and they wanted to 1:40:10.160 --> 1:40:12.880 do it so authentically. If you if you watch the steps, 1:40:12.920 --> 1:40:17.320 they are exactly the same choreography. And it was just 1:40:17.400 --> 1:40:20.600 one of those things. And honest to God, it was 1:40:20.640 --> 1:40:24.639 a psychedelic moment. And by that, I don't mean taking drugs. 1:40:24.800 --> 1:40:27.080 What I mean is is that I felt like I 1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:31.640 was watching myself. I felt like gone out of my 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:34.720 body and I was watching myself do that. And it 1:40:34.800 --> 1:40:37.679 was really something that I don't think I could ever 1:40:37.960 --> 1:40:40.080 you know, really well, I can't really describe it any 1:40:40.080 --> 1:40:42.320 other bit way in that, but it was just something 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:44.479 that was just very very And that's when me and 1:40:44.560 --> 1:40:47.320 Daryl decided to step away after that. It was after 1:40:47.400 --> 1:40:50.080 that show, in the reception after the show, we were 1:40:50.640 --> 1:40:53.200 all the people were coming around and everybody was saying, 1:40:53.479 --> 1:40:55.280 you know, how great it was and all this, and 1:40:55.320 --> 1:40:57.920 I remember me and Daryl sitting down together and we said, 1:40:58.479 --> 1:41:01.360 you know what, probably time for us to just stop. 1:41:01.800 --> 1:41:06.599 Wowad for us, it was a full circle. 1:41:06.680 --> 1:41:10.080 We had we had met because of the temptations in 1:41:10.120 --> 1:41:13.080 a sense, and now we were we had done that, 1:41:13.160 --> 1:41:15.880 and it really felt like we had completed this thing 1:41:15.920 --> 1:41:16.960 in our in our life. 1:41:17.080 --> 1:41:19.679 You know, was there something in your mind you wanted 1:41:19.680 --> 1:41:22.160 to do after this circle had completed, because it seems 1:41:22.160 --> 1:41:22.800 like a whole era. 1:41:22.960 --> 1:41:25.840 So now I wanted, I wanted to live. I wanted 1:41:25.880 --> 1:41:28.320 to I want to do all the things that I 1:41:28.320 --> 1:41:31.040 had never done. You have to remember I was on 1:41:31.080 --> 1:41:33.639 the road from nineteen seventy two until nineteen eighty six, 1:41:33.920 --> 1:41:36.880 and I never ever stopped, not one time. It was 1:41:36.960 --> 1:41:38.320 two breaks and that whole time. 1:41:38.560 --> 1:41:39.519 Had you made a list? 1:41:41.160 --> 1:41:45.080 Yeah? My list was was, uh, live in a house. 1:41:47.040 --> 1:41:51.360 Get me, get married, have a kid. 1:41:52.560 --> 1:41:55.160 And that's exactly what I did. I I sold everything 1:41:55.200 --> 1:41:58.640 I owned, I move, I moved to Colorado and I 1:41:58.680 --> 1:42:01.479 met my future wife and we build a house and 1:42:01.560 --> 1:42:04.040 had a kid. And for about ten years I hardly 1:42:04.040 --> 1:42:07.599 did any music. And wow, I lived in the mountains 1:42:07.600 --> 1:42:11.600 and I kind of became a different person. So it 1:42:11.720 --> 1:42:14.080 was just something I needed to do. 1:42:14.640 --> 1:42:14.960 All right. 1:42:15.040 --> 1:42:18.880 One one last question I have. I know that you're 1:42:19.280 --> 1:42:21.680 you once lived next door to Hunter S. 1:42:21.720 --> 1:42:22.200 Thompson. 1:42:22.600 --> 1:42:27.600 Yeah, oh god, what was that shit like psychedelics. 1:42:27.680 --> 1:42:29.840 Well, that's that's what happened when I when when I 1:42:29.880 --> 1:42:32.040 when I left New York City and I kind of 1:42:32.080 --> 1:42:35.200 started my life over again, moved to Colorado. I was 1:42:35.360 --> 1:42:38.439 with my my girlfriend who later became my wife, and 1:42:39.080 --> 1:42:41.639 we we found a little piece of property. She actually 1:42:41.680 --> 1:42:46.640 found it in Woody Creek, Colorado, which is and we 1:42:46.640 --> 1:42:49.160 we it was it was just a piece of land 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:51.880 with a little cabin and we were going to build 1:42:51.880 --> 1:42:54.439 a house. And so I remember one day and we 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:56.479 went out there to look at it and we were 1:42:56.520 --> 1:42:59.920 standing with a real estate agent and on the proper 1:43:00.920 --> 1:43:04.680 and we heard a shotgun blast and then on the 1:43:04.840 --> 1:43:06.680 on the roof of the cabin, this metal roof, we 1:43:06.760 --> 1:43:10.840 heard all the shotgun pellats, you know, like that, and 1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:14.320 we're like, what the hell is that? And the real station, Oh, 1:43:14.400 --> 1:43:17.160 that's your neighbor, Hunter Thompson. He said, don't worry, he's fine. 1:43:17.200 --> 1:43:19.320 You'll you'll get to meet him later. I was like, 1:43:19.640 --> 1:43:21.599 I said, is this going to be a problem, And 1:43:22.400 --> 1:43:24.200 he said he said, no, no, no, it's going to 1:43:24.240 --> 1:43:28.920 be all right. And so we ignored that. And his 1:43:29.720 --> 1:43:31.720 if you if you know anything about Hunter, you know 1:43:31.760 --> 1:43:35.479 he had that red car LANDNK that he drove in 1:43:35.520 --> 1:43:39.120 the field loathing that was parked that was parked in 1:43:39.160 --> 1:43:43.000 our cabin. He didn't own the property, but that property 1:43:43.000 --> 1:43:45.360 had been abandoned for years, so he just stuck his 1:43:45.400 --> 1:43:48.000 car in the little cabin. So we were going to 1:43:48.080 --> 1:43:51.000 take that cabin and convert it into an apartment where 1:43:51.000 --> 1:43:53.920 we could live while we built our house. So I 1:43:54.040 --> 1:43:56.800 kept going up and knocking on his door, because he 1:43:56.880 --> 1:43:59.320 literally was right across the road. I would knock on 1:43:59.320 --> 1:44:02.280 his door, hopefully, you know, to introduce myself and say, 1:44:02.520 --> 1:44:04.240 hey man, we got to get your car out of 1:44:04.240 --> 1:44:07.759 the cabin. And he never answered the door ever, because 1:44:07.760 --> 1:44:10.360 he would sleep all day and stay up all night, 1:44:10.479 --> 1:44:13.920 and I would always go during the day as so 1:44:14.200 --> 1:44:16.479 finally I just the keys were in the car. 1:44:16.920 --> 1:44:17.439 I put a. 1:44:17.439 --> 1:44:20.280 Jumper cables on it, I jumped it, I started it. 1:44:20.640 --> 1:44:23.160 I drove it up onto his lawn. I parked it 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:25.880 directly in front of his kitchen door, and I left 1:44:25.920 --> 1:44:29.040 it there. And I knew him for twenty five years. 1:44:29.080 --> 1:44:33.719 He never said a word to me about it. 1:44:33.360 --> 1:44:33.880 He did it. 1:44:34.680 --> 1:44:37.080 He probably did it in the middle of the night, yes, 1:44:37.760 --> 1:44:42.120 where it just appeared there. Wow, you We used to 1:44:42.200 --> 1:44:44.400 go up to his house and we used to watch 1:44:44.479 --> 1:44:46.720 Monday night football with him and the sheriff. 1:44:46.439 --> 1:44:49.759 And he did something normal like watch football. 1:44:50.439 --> 1:44:54.000 Oh that he was a major sports junkie. He was 1:44:54.040 --> 1:44:58.000 a huge sports fan. That's all his whole thing. And 1:44:58.040 --> 1:45:00.720 then then we went to the funeral too, Johnny dep 1:45:00.720 --> 1:45:02.880 did you know where where they shot his ashes out 1:45:02.880 --> 1:45:05.280 of the cannon and all that we were there for that. 1:45:05.400 --> 1:45:07.519 It was wow. I didn't know they did it at 1:45:07.520 --> 1:45:08.040 the funeral. 1:45:08.320 --> 1:45:09.800 Wow, wow, wow. 1:45:10.120 --> 1:45:12.280 Just who you want for a neighbor when you're trying 1:45:12.280 --> 1:45:13.000 to get away from it. 1:45:13.040 --> 1:45:17.200 All right, he was actually you know what though, he 1:45:17.360 --> 1:45:20.200 was actually a really good a good guy. He he 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:23.240 liked being Hunter Thompson. You know, he liked he liked 1:45:23.240 --> 1:45:25.160 the image. You know, he liked the hat and the 1:45:25.200 --> 1:45:28.559 cigarette holder and the motorcycle with a glass of Burt 1:45:28.560 --> 1:45:31.519 you know gin. But down you know, he was a 1:45:31.600 --> 1:45:34.720 Southern gentleman. He was from Kentucky and if he liked you, 1:45:35.040 --> 1:45:37.280 and it broke all that down. He was he was 1:45:37.320 --> 1:45:40.479 really cool and he was really smart. And no, it 1:45:40.520 --> 1:45:42.679 was a real experience to have him as a neighbor 1:45:42.720 --> 1:45:43.799 for over twenty years. 1:45:43.880 --> 1:45:45.479 Well, we thank you for coming on the show and 1:45:45.520 --> 1:45:48.760 we have a team Supreme Fan Digolo, Boss, Bill Sugar, 1:45:48.840 --> 1:45:51.000 Steve like you, I'm quest Love. 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:55.080 This would be great, John O, thank you very much. 1:46:04.160 --> 1:46:09.840 West Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. For more 1:46:09.880 --> 1:46:14.360 podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 1:46:14.360 --> 1:46:16.040 wherever you listen to your favorite shows.