Speaker 1: Quest. Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome to another episode this time this
Speaker 2: really is.
Speaker 1: A special episode of course, Love Supreme.
Speaker 3: We have our Team Supreme with us. This is going
Speaker 3: to be a.
Speaker 2: Special being kind of an instant too parter, I will
Speaker 2: save that our guest today simply not only accomplished musician, singer, songwriter,
Speaker 2: but in my opinion, he is hands down one half
Speaker 2: of one of the most successful duos of all time
Speaker 2: in the modern rocket era. He'll popularize the burgeoning blue
Speaker 2: eyed soul movement of the late sixties and early seventies
Speaker 2: and into the future from my native town in Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: along with his partner Daryl Hall, who incidentally will have
Speaker 2: his own episode to himself as well.
Speaker 3: I want to preface.
Speaker 2: By saying that usually, uh, when we have guests on
Speaker 2: the show, I kind of like the one on one thing,
Speaker 2: just like one artist for Team Supreme. I know it's
Speaker 2: been easier to have a group aesthetic, but I feel
Speaker 2: like you get more in depth stories when it's one
Speaker 2: on one. And I'm not being a smart like by
Speaker 2: referencing one of their classic songs, but in.
Speaker 3: My game to night Eaginal man that when that was
Speaker 3: the NBA.
Speaker 4: Do you remember a certain age when that was the
Speaker 4: NBA theme song?
Speaker 3: When when they had.
Speaker 1: That who you don't remember this?
Speaker 3: What man? Yo?
Speaker 4: One on one they there was a promo they cut
Speaker 4: and it would be like, you know, you see bird
Speaker 4: and magic like you know, playing this motion and it
Speaker 4: was one on one. They cut it on one on one.
Speaker 4: That ship was amazing.
Speaker 5: They used it for the old started game.
Speaker 3: John.
Speaker 2: Where are you right now as we speak? I'm in Nashville, Okay,
Speaker 2: And this is your home home?
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we still have a place out in Colorado
Speaker 5: where we lived for about twenty five years in the
Speaker 5: nineties into the two thousands. But yeah, we've been here
Speaker 5: now for about almost fifteen years. And yeah, it's a
Speaker 5: great place to make music.
Speaker 3: See I see. So when were your Philly days over?
Speaker 5: Oh? Man, you know that was a long long time ago.
Speaker 5: I think Daryl and I both moved to New York
Speaker 5: together in nineteen seventy two, and that's when we got
Speaker 5: our Atlantic Records contract and we made our first album
Speaker 5: in New York at Atlantic Records.
Speaker 3: The one Top produced.
Speaker 5: No No No, This is a Reef Martin Oh wow.
Speaker 5: A Reef produced our first two albums, an album called
Speaker 5: holl Oats, which hardly anybody knows about, and then the
Speaker 5: album Abandon Luncheonette, which is kind of the one that
Speaker 5: I think most people think is our first album was
Speaker 5: a second but Arif Martin produced both those and we
Speaker 5: couldn't have been in better hands. One of the greatest
Speaker 5: producers of all time, and was he was. He surrounded
Speaker 5: us with the greatest musicians in New York City and
Speaker 5: it was an amazing experience.
Speaker 2: So, you know, having you on the show is special
Speaker 2: for me at least because even though we had Todd
Speaker 2: on the show, I feel like I'm going to get
Speaker 2: way better mid to late sixties Philadelphia music community stories
Speaker 2: that otherwise my dad wouldn't have been able to tell
Speaker 2: me about, or you know, a lot of cats and
Speaker 2: that I've always wanted to know these stories about the
Speaker 2: music scene in Philly, especially right before Gamble and Huff
Speaker 2: started their empire.
Speaker 3: Always been curious about that sort of thing. Were you
Speaker 3: born in Philadelphia?
Speaker 5: I was actually born in New York City. My family
Speaker 5: was from New York, but when my father's job was
Speaker 5: relocated to Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia in nineteen I'm going
Speaker 5: to date myself. But hey, you all know, I'm old self.
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter fifty nineteen, fifty four, fifty three or
Speaker 5: fifty four. And so we moved in the whole. We
Speaker 5: moved our family, The rest of my the rest of
Speaker 5: our extended family stayed in the New York area. But no,
Speaker 5: so essentially, even though I was born in New York,
Speaker 5: you know, I was such a little kid. I grew
Speaker 5: up in Pennsylvania, in the Philadelphia area.
Speaker 3: Okay, And what part of Philly were you in Pennsylvania?
Speaker 5: Well, it was a little town called North Wales, which
Speaker 5: was near Lansdale Dale. It was about twenty miles north
Speaker 5: of Philadelphia.
Speaker 3: Okay. Cool. Do you know what your first musical memory was?
Speaker 5: I sure do, I absolutely do. Right after we moved
Speaker 5: to Pennsylvania, there was a place not too far away
Speaker 5: called Willard Grove Amusement Park. Okay, And now it was
Speaker 5: an air base as well, but anyway, at the time,
Speaker 5: it was an amusement park. And my folks took me
Speaker 5: there and Bill Haley and the Comets were playing in
Speaker 5: the band show. And I don't know if you remember,
Speaker 5: but Bill Haley was from Camden, of course, and so
Speaker 5: I was like I was probably four maybe, And of course,
Speaker 5: you know, I had had this musical sensibility at the time,
Speaker 5: even though I was a little kid. And I remember
Speaker 5: running down to the stage. It was a band show,
Speaker 5: so the stage was only maybe two feet high, and
Speaker 5: I remember being this little kid and I ran right
Speaker 5: down to the band shell. And I remember the bass player,
Speaker 5: the upright bass player. At one point in the show,
Speaker 5: he rode his bass like a horse, and I thought
Speaker 5: that was the most amazing things I'd ever seen. And
Speaker 5: that actually the first live music I ever heard was
Speaker 5: Rock around the Clock. And you know Bill Haley.
Speaker 2: And the Comets really so they were just performing at the.
Speaker 5: They were in the they were performing at the amusement park.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say, I think I believe that
Speaker 2: I too saw a latter day Bill Haley beforemat Then
Speaker 2: we used to we we had something called the Steel Pier.
Speaker 5: Oh. Yeah, I played at the Steel Pier.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Steel Pier in a Lank city. It was
Speaker 3: a Lank city, right or wild.
Speaker 5: Wood Yep, No, it was in Atlantic City. And when
Speaker 5: I was a really little kid, around five or six,
Speaker 5: I sang at something called Tony Grant Stars of Tomorrow
Speaker 5: which was a kitty uh talent show at the Steel Pier.
Speaker 2: In my dating myself, I had mentioned the word Al
Speaker 2: alberts Where you do you remember the Al alberts O
Speaker 2: case at all?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was around that time, and
Speaker 5: there was a guy and it was actually before Dick
Speaker 5: Clark took over Bandstand and it was what was his name?
Speaker 5: There was a different host before Dick Clark, but it
Speaker 5: was during that period of time. It was in the
Speaker 5: mid fifties.
Speaker 2: And uh so you you were there for like the
Speaker 2: the do Op era of Philadelphia.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Duop and Jerry Blavett and all that stuff. Jerry
Speaker 5: Blavett was a big hero of mine.
Speaker 6: Yeah, the radio show that he used to do from
Speaker 6: I think it was from Trenton where he'd play all
Speaker 6: B sides and man, I heard, you know, songs like
Speaker 6: Biolah by the Versatnes and you know, and Guided Missiles
Speaker 6: and you know these.
Speaker 5: Songs that were just unbelievable and you know your your
Speaker 5: your father man Lee Andrews and the Hearts. Man, I
Speaker 5: mean you know, tick tick tick in the clock a
Speaker 5: league got it?
Speaker 3: That's that's so dope.
Speaker 2: So okay, during that period, I'm assuming that you're a teenager.
Speaker 2: Like for you, like when did you know? What was
Speaker 2: your moment of or your calling of knowing that you
Speaker 2: were going to be a musician?
Speaker 3: Like how old were you? And was guitar always your
Speaker 3: weapon of choice? I was?
Speaker 5: I just had I guess I had musical talent when
Speaker 5: I was a little little kid. You know, I would sing.
Speaker 5: I would sing these little songs. In fact, I have
Speaker 5: a recording of me singing a little children's nursery song
Speaker 5: that was done at Coney Island in one of those
Speaker 5: record booths, you know where you go into the booth
Speaker 5: and you put some money in and you'd sing and
Speaker 5: the little record would come out. I still have that record.
Speaker 5: I did that when I was like four or five
Speaker 5: years old, and then I started playing guitar at seven.
Speaker 5: I originally started on accordion because they were the only
Speaker 5: music teacher in this little town where we lived, was
Speaker 5: an accordion teacher. But I hated it, and then I
Speaker 5: played I started playing guitar at about seven or eight,
Speaker 5: and I was it.
Speaker 3: You play accordion?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 3: I mean if you were to pick it up, now,
Speaker 3: would you be?
Speaker 5: I could fumble around on it, but but what happened
Speaker 5: was seriously my mother just thought. My mom said, you
Speaker 5: know he take some music lessons. Well, the only teacher
Speaker 5: was an accordion teacher, and you know he was doing
Speaker 5: all that Pennsylvani and you you know, polka stuff, that
Speaker 5: kind of stuff, and so, I mean I hated it.
Speaker 5: I literally I remember it. Used to sit in the closet.
Speaker 5: And then I think I took two or three lessons,
Speaker 5: and finally on the third lesson, the teacher went, he's
Speaker 5: not practicing. I said, I hate this. I'm not doing it.
Speaker 5: And I said, I want to get a guitar. So
Speaker 5: I got a guitar and I started there.
Speaker 3: Okay, how old were you when you got your guitar?
Speaker 5: About seven?
Speaker 2: Okay, do you remember the first album that you yourself purchased.
Speaker 5: I didn't purchase an album at the first. I purchased singles.
Speaker 5: It was always singles.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, yeah, your first it was the first record
Speaker 3: that you got.
Speaker 5: Oh man, let's see Shirley and Lee. Well it was
Speaker 5: the Everly Brothers Shirly Lee and uh, well it's probably
Speaker 5: an Elvis song too, I'm sure, and a Chuck Berry song,
Speaker 5: probably Johnny be Good or something like that.
Speaker 3: As you were a teenager, how what was the you know.
Speaker 2: I guess for a lot of us could say that,
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in the era of the
Speaker 2: Philadelphia sound just being developed, you know, in their early seventies.
Speaker 2: But of course I know that a lot of those cats,
Speaker 2: like not only Gamble and Huff, but Bunny Siegler and
Speaker 2: all those guys were just local Philadelphia musicians.
Speaker 3: So could you talk of just about.
Speaker 2: That that environment atmosphere sort of in the mid sixties
Speaker 2: to the early seventies, like what was happening in Philadelphia musically?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, during when I was a teenager living,
Speaker 5: you know, living right outside of Philly, you know, I
Speaker 5: would take the train down on the Reading Railroad into
Speaker 5: Center City and buy clothes and to go to the
Speaker 5: record Museum on Chestnut Street by records. And what I'd
Speaker 5: always do on Saturday night was I'd go to the
Speaker 5: Uptown And I went to the Uptown Theater almost every
Speaker 5: Saturday night. And oh, I saw the greatest of the greats.
Speaker 3: So give me a typical give me a typical weekend.
Speaker 5: Oh well, all right, you know I saw Sam and Dave,
Speaker 5: I saw you know, the Temptations, I saw Stevie wonder
Speaker 5: Do Fingertips when he was like twelve, when he first
Speaker 5: came out. I actually saw him play that song and
Speaker 5: I remember he jump on the drum kit and his
Speaker 5: little kid. I mean, man, there was so many great
Speaker 5: Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, the Four Tops, you know,
Speaker 5: all the all the great Motown. But you know Barbara Mason,
Speaker 5: Uh you know the Delphonics stylistics. Uh well, the Delphonics
Speaker 5: were first. The Stylistics came a little later, but I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, I was taken with a lot of the
Speaker 5: great I remember this one group from Memphis that I loved,
Speaker 5: the Mad Lads. Yeah, the Mad Lads, and uh he
Speaker 5: just it just went on and on and on. It
Speaker 5: was to me, it was it was I learned how
Speaker 5: how a show is supposed to go. You know what,
Speaker 5: what what got people off, what made got people to
Speaker 5: scream and yell and clap and uh it was just
Speaker 5: an amazing experience.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: So you know again, I'm a Philadelphian, so I've not
Speaker 2: heard any shows about the Uptown. What would be the
Speaker 2: typical format of a show, like, for instance, if James
Speaker 2: Brown is coming to Philadelphia, would he normally play at
Speaker 2: the Uptown or was he at.
Speaker 5: The time, Yeah, he would the Uptown Theater. Well, you know,
Speaker 5: it was part of it was part of the Chiplan's circuit.
Speaker 5: You know, it was the Apollo, the Howard and Howard
Speaker 5: Theater in DC, the Uptown in Philly.
Speaker 2: I mean that was the circuit, you know, So, like,
Speaker 2: what would the format be like would shows? Would you
Speaker 2: go there at twelve and at afternoon and.
Speaker 3: Stay there all day?
Speaker 5: Or no, No, it was he there were evening shows. They
Speaker 5: were evening shows, and they would have a house band.
Speaker 5: They always had a house band, and part of the
Speaker 5: house band later became a lot of the cats who
Speaker 5: played with Gamble and Huff became the studio guys for
Speaker 5: Game on Huff. But in fact, Kenny Gamble might have
Speaker 5: even been playing piano in the house man Darrel. We'll
Speaker 5: tell you a little bit more about that too, because
Speaker 5: he he was He worked with with Kenny and Leon
Speaker 5: on his first record. But I, you know, I worked
Speaker 5: with Bobby Martin. Bobby Martin arranged the first single that
Speaker 5: I that I did, and I didn't even know who
Speaker 5: he was. We we were looking I was. It was
Speaker 5: basically my high school band and we wanted to make
Speaker 5: a record. We went We went down to North broad
Speaker 5: Street to a place called Virtue Studios. Frank Virtue, who
Speaker 5: who had a song called Guitar Booge Shuffle that was
Speaker 5: his claim to fame.
Speaker 3: It was an instrumental okay.
Speaker 5: He had a small had a small studio on North
Speaker 5: broad Street and we recorded this track and Frank Virtue,
Speaker 5: who was the owner and the engineer, he said, man,
Speaker 5: you guys need some work. He said, I'm going to
Speaker 5: introduce you to somebody. He gave me Bobby Martin's number,
Speaker 5: and we went down and paid him a visit and
Speaker 5: he was working out of a small office just south
Speaker 5: of a city hall on Broad Street, and he arranged
Speaker 5: it and kind of he kind of you know, gave
Speaker 5: us a little professional you know, spit and polish and
Speaker 5: made made it sound good. So so we were both
Speaker 5: Darryl and I were kind of involved with the core
Speaker 5: of the Gamble and enough people before they became kind
Speaker 5: of gambling off.
Speaker 2: What was your group situation before Hall of Notes or
Speaker 2: was Darryl you're well?
Speaker 5: I had I had a band called the Masters, and
Speaker 5: Daryl had a group called the Temptones. Daryl's group was
Speaker 5: pretty much a four part an a cappella group, very
Speaker 5: similar to the Temptations. That's why they call themselves the Temptones.
Speaker 5: Really yeah, and my group was more of a combo,
Speaker 5: you know. It was funny I used that word combo.
Speaker 5: Nobody uses that word anymore, right, It was you know, guitar, bass, drums.
Speaker 5: We had a trumpet and a trombone and a saxophone. Uh.
Speaker 5: I got my sister to sing background. So we were
Speaker 5: like our self contained, you know, rhythm section and vocals,
Speaker 5: and we did all you know, we did. We did
Speaker 5: what bands did in those days. We played the hits,
Speaker 5: We played the songs that we heard on the radio,
Speaker 5: and you know, leaning a lot on on the stuff
Speaker 5: that came out of Stax and Volt too. I did
Speaker 5: a lot of that, and I did a lot of
Speaker 5: Curtis Mayfield as well.
Speaker 2: So for you, though, as a teenager, did you instantly
Speaker 2: know that you wanted to be in the music business
Speaker 2: or were you just rolling with the win and see
Speaker 2: what would happen.
Speaker 5: I don't think I had a choice, you know, And
Speaker 5: I'm not bragging when I say this, but I've never
Speaker 5: had a job. The only thing I've ever done is
Speaker 5: play music. Is this thing I've had to have in
Speaker 5: a job, was teaching guitar lessons when I was in college.
Speaker 5: So that's I'm a blessed, a very very grateful person
Speaker 5: because I got to do what I you know, what
Speaker 5: I think I was born to do.
Speaker 3: All right, So how did you meet Darryl?
Speaker 5: Well, it's a it's an unusual story. His he the
Speaker 5: Timptones had recorded on Jimmy Bishop's label. Jimmy Bishop you
Speaker 5: might know it was was the top DJ on w D.
Speaker 7: As their family is legendary in Philly.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and uh so Darryl. Darryl was signed to
Speaker 5: and I think it was Arctic Records. Uh, he'll tell you.
Speaker 5: He'll give you all the details on that. On his side.
Speaker 5: And this this group I had, as I said, it
Speaker 5: is called the Masters. And we made this track with
Speaker 5: Bobby Martin and went down to the record museum on
Speaker 5: Chestnut Street and said, hey, we made a record and
Speaker 5: the guy said, let me hear it, put it on
Speaker 5: the turntable, said what are you going to do? I said, well,
Speaker 5: we're looking for we won't put it out. He said,
Speaker 5: sign here, threw a piece of paper in front of me,
Speaker 5: and of course I was, you know, I'd sign an
Speaker 5: I'd sign anything ship. In fact, I think that was
Speaker 5: I think I did that way too many times in
Speaker 5: my career. But that's another story enough. You don't have
Speaker 5: enough time for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to say, I got to ask
Speaker 2: you about the seventies years.
Speaker 5: But we but we did get you know, So my
Speaker 5: song is getting played on H A T and D
Speaker 5: A S. Darryl's song was getting played, so we were
Speaker 5: both aware of each other, but I didn't I didn't
Speaker 5: know him, and we were individually invited to a record
Speaker 5: hop that Jimmy Bishop was doing out in West Philly
Speaker 5: at the del Fi Ballroom. Del Fi Ballroom, right, you know.
Speaker 5: And so we went out there and we were standing backstage.
Speaker 5: It was an afternoon teenage thing. It was the Five
Speaker 5: Stair Steps Howard Tate. Howard Tate had a song called
Speaker 5: Look a Granny, Run Run, And so Howard Tate Five
Speaker 5: Stair Steps, me and Daryl's group in my group, and
Speaker 5: we literally didn't know each other, and but I had
Speaker 5: heard his record, he had heard my record. And then
Speaker 5: a gang fight broke out in the crowd, and so yeah,
Speaker 5: so we all went down and we never even got
Speaker 5: to perform. We were gonna lip sync our record. We
Speaker 5: went down onto the street level and when we went downstairs,
Speaker 5: we went, hey, man, I saw you. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: I said, And we were both going to Temple University
Speaker 5: and I started seeing him around the school on Broad Street.
Speaker 7: But John, excuse me, I have to ask you because
Speaker 7: it sounds like so regular. This isn't the no, this
Speaker 7: is in the sixties, correct.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this was a team. This would have been nineteen
Speaker 5: sixty eight.
Speaker 7: So the question is was it common Because DAS at
Speaker 7: the time was still an R and B station, right,
Speaker 7: And I'm guessing that Mary Mason and then we're playing
Speaker 7: nothing but R and B music. So how common was
Speaker 7: it that two dudes, too white dudes, two different groups
Speaker 7: had music on these black radio stations.
Speaker 5: Well, did you ever hear our music?
Speaker 7: I mean, yeah I did, But I'm just saying to
Speaker 7: you that in the moment though, in the moment.
Speaker 5: Hey listen, we we were accepted by the black music
Speaker 5: community long before we were accepted by the white, white
Speaker 5: rock and roll community. So it was not a surprise
Speaker 5: to us at all when our records crossed over. You know,
Speaker 5: that was totally seemed normal to me. We just made
Speaker 5: the music that we made, you know. I mean, if
Speaker 5: you grow up in the Philadelphia area and you listened
Speaker 5: to Philadelphia radio and you're kid, you're gonna make the
Speaker 5: music that goes in your head, you know. And so
Speaker 5: we made the music that that we made, and it,
Speaker 5: I guess must have done something right, so, you know.
Speaker 2: But for you, but for you growing up in that
Speaker 2: time period, you weren't at all drawn to, uh, the
Speaker 2: other acts of the era, era like the Dovell's or.
Speaker 3: You know, like the Frankie Avalin.
Speaker 5: Dan You're like, yeah, you're talking about the Cameo Parkway era.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Well, you.
Speaker 5: See what happened was when Darryl and I first met,
Speaker 5: two of the guys in my band got drafted into Vietnam.
Speaker 5: My band fell apart. Daryl's group was kind of falling
Speaker 5: apart anyway, so I joined up with him as a
Speaker 5: guitar player, backup guitar player, and when both groups fell apart,
Speaker 5: he and I gravitated toward each other and we started
Speaker 5: we became songwriters. At the at the Schubert Schubert Building,
Speaker 5: guy the guy named John Madera, and John Madera was
Speaker 5: from the Cameo Parkway. He was the guy from the
Speaker 5: Dovels and Chubby Checker and Frankie and uh, we knew
Speaker 5: that that that that music was on its way out,
Speaker 5: and you know, it was really the end of that
Speaker 5: Cameo Parkway era. So but we you know, we knew,
Speaker 5: we knew Lenn Barry and and all those guys. You know,
Speaker 5: they were all around the whole time. And then at
Speaker 5: the exact same time that Darren and I were writing
Speaker 5: on the I think we were on the second floor,
Speaker 5: Gamble and Huff opened their offices on the fourth floor
Speaker 5: with Tommy Bell and everything. So we all kind of
Speaker 5: started at the same time.
Speaker 4: That building that you were referring to was that kind
Speaker 4: of like the Brill Building was.
Speaker 5: The Philadelphia's version of the Brill Building. It was the
Speaker 5: Super Theater building. Okay, we're still there, but there were
Speaker 5: offices in it at the time. And yeah, so that's
Speaker 5: how we started. And uh, you know, yeah, we knew
Speaker 5: all those guys, and you know, we were involved in
Speaker 5: that era. But as I said, the Dovels and Cheby
Speaker 5: Checker and those guys werena you know, they were they
Speaker 5: were they were the last year's model, you know, they
Speaker 5: were kind of going out.
Speaker 2: I went to Performing Arts school, uh for elementary at least,
Speaker 2: even though it went up to high school. But oftentimes
Speaker 2: we go to that Schubert Building to learn like our
Speaker 2: musical craft, like take piano lessons over there, and take
Speaker 2: drum lessons over there on Broad Street. Yeah, so you get,
Speaker 2: you guys met when a gang fight was breaking out,
Speaker 2: like yes, in your mind, like even like was how typical?
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I was born way after like
Speaker 2: the gang Wars. But you know, if you're a teenager
Speaker 2: in the fifties and sixties, like how prevalent was gang
Speaker 2: activity in Philadelphia?
Speaker 5: You know, I think in the sixties the city was
Speaker 5: much more integrated. There was, there wasn't as much violence.
Speaker 5: I think a lot of the you know, the black
Speaker 5: black power movement, black pride movement really started more in
Speaker 5: the seventies. And you know, by that time, Daryl and
Speaker 5: I had gone on to New York. But you know,
Speaker 5: and of course there was you know, there was racial
Speaker 5: stuff happening all over the country, but we felt I
Speaker 5: always felt very comfortable in Philadelphia, especially in the sixties.
Speaker 5: I never had any problems with it. And you know,
Speaker 5: if you really look at if you look at Gamble
Speaker 5: and Huff at the great you know tsop rhythm section.
Speaker 5: You know, it was an integrated rhythm section. You know,
Speaker 5: black and white players playing working together in the studio.
Speaker 5: And the head engineer, Joe Tarcia, he was a white,
Speaker 5: white cat. And you know Vince Montana who did all
Speaker 5: the string arrangements. You know, he's a white guy. But
Speaker 5: so there was it was really it didn't feel that
Speaker 5: unusual to me at the time.
Speaker 2: So in your opinion, what year do you feel as
Speaker 2: though what we know is the sound of Philadelphia, or
Speaker 2: at least the first draft it does'tend to be the
Speaker 2: less strings like that was Philly International, but you know,
Speaker 2: like the earlier and trudest stage of like Gamble Records
Speaker 2: before Philly International.
Speaker 5: Before it was a little more raw.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for you, like especially the stuff they did
Speaker 2: on Atlantic, when do you feel is like the actual
Speaker 2: sound of Philadelphia got established?
Speaker 5: I think it happened around the same time, around nineteen seventy,
Speaker 5: I would say, I feel like, you know, like you said,
Speaker 5: the Little Sunny and the Intruders, the Delphonics, those records,
Speaker 5: they were street records. They were essentially do wop records
Speaker 5: with musical backing, you know, And it wasn't really until
Speaker 5: later on when Tommy Bell, I think, was responsible for
Speaker 5: adding a real high level of musical sophistication to what
Speaker 5: was coming out of the game on Huff's Place. You know,
Speaker 5: if you listen to Tommy Bell, and I mean his court
Speaker 5: changes are so unbelievable and so unique and so complicated
Speaker 5: really if you think about it, and you know, in
Speaker 5: a way, and I had a conversation with it with
Speaker 5: Burt Backerac about this. Tommy Bell was, to me, is
Speaker 5: like the black Burt Backerac, you know. I mean you
Speaker 5: listen to Burt backerac songs and the way he voiced
Speaker 5: his chords, and you listen to Tommy Bell and the
Speaker 5: way he voiced his chords. I think they were listening
Speaker 5: to each other because I think there's a lot of
Speaker 5: similarity there.
Speaker 2: Could you talk about the period that led up to
Speaker 2: the actual record deal with the Lenox.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, it goes back to the shop building. We
Speaker 5: were working with this guy, John Madera, and we were
Speaker 5: just songwriters. We were kind of staff songwriters, and we would,
Speaker 5: you know, we'd write some songs and he'd try to
Speaker 5: pitch him for us, and nothing was really happening. And
Speaker 5: he had done a deal with Chapel Music in New
Speaker 5: York City. I guess he sold his catalog. And when
Speaker 5: he sold his catalog, we kind of came along with
Speaker 5: the deal. We were like his new writers, and so
Speaker 5: he was kind of bragging on us as the new
Speaker 5: writers that he was bringing along with the sale of
Speaker 5: his publishing catalog. So we went to New York City
Speaker 5: and we auditioned for chap Music. Basically, you know, he
Speaker 5: kind of it was, you know, he would show us off,
Speaker 5: you know, and me and Daryl would play our little songs,
Speaker 5: you know, that we had written, and Chapel Music seemed interested,
Speaker 5: but then nothing would ever happen. So then go to
Speaker 5: New York and we'd do a showcase, he and they,
Speaker 5: just Daryl and I just the two of us. He'd
Speaker 5: played piano, I played guitar, and it was like a
Speaker 5: kind of a little bit kind of a folky R
Speaker 5: and B duo kind of thing. And everybody always loved
Speaker 5: what we did, but we never we never got any traction.
Speaker 5: We'd go back to Philly and we'd find out that
Speaker 5: and always the thing he'd always say to us is say, yeah,
Speaker 5: they like you, but they passed. They passed. We couldn't
Speaker 5: figure out why why they like us, But nobody ever
Speaker 5: offered us a deal. And we later found out that
Speaker 5: he was trying to cut deals on the side that
Speaker 5: were just so so bad that nobody wanted to touch
Speaker 5: us because it was just, you know, I don't want
Speaker 5: to get into the music business. This the dark, seamy
Speaker 5: side of the music business a little bit.
Speaker 3: But that's act. That's no ex education. Though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, in Philly was it as was the the
Speaker 2: what I will say, the mars Levy of it all.
Speaker 3: Was that kind of a presence in Philadelphia as well.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, it was all over the place. It was everywhere.
Speaker 3: So when do you feel as though.
Speaker 2: What I you know, for those who are listening to
Speaker 2: the podcast, I'm sort of speaking on a kind of
Speaker 2: the wise guy mafioso era of the music business where.
Speaker 7: We thought, so he was following you, he was following you.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I know we're following because we know each other.
Speaker 5: But I'm speaking for the people.
Speaker 3: I'm yeah, oh, yes, you represent the people.
Speaker 2: However, you know, eventually, well, some of it's like that
Speaker 2: episode of I don't know if you remember the Sopranos
Speaker 2: when when uh uh, you know, Tony's guys were trying
Speaker 2: to shake down the Starbucks and the person was trying
Speaker 2: to like explain to them, like we're not a local,
Speaker 2: like this is this is a chain they and they
Speaker 2: sort of felt like dinosaurs.
Speaker 3: It was like, oh, we can't shake.
Speaker 2: Down, right And but for you when did that sort
Speaker 2: of did that era ever end?
Speaker 5: I think it did, and I think it kind of
Speaker 5: went out in the seventies. And by that time, Daryl
Speaker 5: and I were so frustrated because we couldn't get anything
Speaker 5: going and every you know, it was very frustrating to
Speaker 5: have people like like what you did, but yet not
Speaker 5: respond to you. And we we we got to the
Speaker 5: point where we couldn't deal with it anymore, and we
Speaker 5: we kind of put our pulled our money together. We
Speaker 5: you know, we didn't have anything at the time. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, if I could buy a cheese steak, you know,
Speaker 5: it was a big deal for me. You know, so
Speaker 5: we pulled we pulled our money together when we flew
Speaker 5: to California and neither of us had ever been to
Speaker 5: California before, and we didn't know that you had to
Speaker 5: have a car when you got there. We we just
Speaker 5: we just showed up. We just shut up. This guy
Speaker 5: from Chapel Music picked us up at the airport and
Speaker 5: he let us stay at his house and he said,
Speaker 5: I'm going to get you you know, I'm going to
Speaker 5: let you guys play for few people and see what happens.
Speaker 5: We just thought maybe California would give us a chance,
Speaker 5: and sure enough, we played for this guy at his house,
Speaker 5: literally in his living room, and he was friends with
Speaker 5: Amed Erdigan, had Atlantic Records, very good friends they were.
Speaker 5: He was actually he wasn't really a musician. He was
Speaker 5: an art dealer, but amed Erdigan was a big art
Speaker 5: collector and that that's I guess that was their thing.
Speaker 5: So we played at this guy's living room and this
Speaker 5: guy said, he started it was funny. We played a
Speaker 5: couple of songs and he started laughing, and we said,
Speaker 5: what's up? What's the deal? He goes, are you guys
Speaker 5: for real? We were like yeah, and he's like, why
Speaker 5: are you playing in my living room? He goes, how
Speaker 5: come you don't have a record contract? I said, well,
Speaker 5: we can't get one. We got them this guy in Philly,
Speaker 5: who you know, can't help us, and we don't know
Speaker 5: what to do. I mean, it was kind of crazy,
Speaker 5: and he said, I'm gonna call on it. He says,
Speaker 5: you guys go back to Atlantic and you auditioned for them,
Speaker 5: and we went okay, and so we flew back to
Speaker 5: Philly and then we went took the train to New
Speaker 5: York and we walked into a room with Jerry Greenberg,
Speaker 5: who was the president of Atlantic at the time, and
Speaker 5: Reef Martin and we played our songs just like we
Speaker 5: did every time we played, and a Reef stood up
Speaker 5: at the end and said, I want to produce these guys.
Speaker 5: That was it? Wow, record deal?
Speaker 3: What was it like working with him?
Speaker 2: Because I became familiar with the Reef because of I
Speaker 2: guess my love for the average white band records. That's
Speaker 2: when I started seeing his name on a lot of
Speaker 2: the crow But at the time, were you excited were
Speaker 2: you familiar with his track record with like Aretha?
Speaker 5: I was. I was very, very familiar with a Reef.
Speaker 5: I thought the Aretha stuff and in particular, his arrangements
Speaker 5: were so spectacular and so beautiful string arrangements and just
Speaker 5: his just his musical sensibility. And you know, he was
Speaker 5: an interesting guy because he was he was Turkish, and
Speaker 5: he had this deep, deep love for American jazz and
Speaker 5: American music. What was great about a Reef was he
Speaker 5: thought like a pure musician. He didn't care about styles
Speaker 5: and genres and what was hip or what was happening
Speaker 5: at the moment. He just cared about what would serve
Speaker 5: the song the best. He he thought like a classical,
Speaker 5: like a classical arranger. He you know, if it needed
Speaker 5: an obo and in a viola, he would do an
Speaker 5: obo and a viola. He had no there was no
Speaker 5: it was no kind of thing. Well, so and so
Speaker 5: is doing this. This is the sounds on the radio,
Speaker 5: so let's do something like that. It had nothing to
Speaker 5: do with that, and he was I learned so much.
Speaker 5: In fact, I think every recording session I've ever done
Speaker 5: since that time, I pretty much tried to conduct the
Speaker 5: way he did. He just put the best people possible
Speaker 5: in the room, the best players that he thought was
Speaker 5: appropriate for the music in the room, and he just
Speaker 5: guided them and let them do what they did. But
Speaker 5: he just kind of guided them. He never asserted himself
Speaker 5: and made it seem like he was running the show.
Speaker 5: He was always there, and he was always made sure
Speaker 5: that he got exactly what he wanted. But he never
Speaker 5: was out there telling, oh, you do this and you
Speaker 5: do this, and so it was really it was really
Speaker 5: an education to be with him and to see what
Speaker 5: you know. When we were doing the second album with him,
Speaker 5: he was producing The Divine Miss m with Bette Miller,
Speaker 5: so we'd leave the studio, Bette Miller would come in.
Speaker 5: And then he was doing the John Primee album, the
Speaker 5: first John Prine album, which was an unbelievable album. So
Speaker 5: he was doing singer songwriters, he was doing R and
Speaker 5: b's did he did Solomon Burke, he did Hubert Laws,
Speaker 5: the jazz. So, I mean, he was all over the
Speaker 5: map because he was so good as a as a
Speaker 5: just as a musician. He didn't care what it was.
Speaker 5: It was just music to him, pure music. And I
Speaker 5: think that's what I learned from him.
Speaker 2: So Okay, so back then I know that the this
Speaker 2: sort of I mean, the technology.
Speaker 3: Is different than the eighties than it was the seventies.
Speaker 2: But when you're working on an album, like is is
Speaker 2: he having is it one on one time with him
Speaker 2: or is it for him like a day job where
Speaker 2: it's like, Okay, I got a refill on Tuesday, and
Speaker 2: Donny Hathaway on Wednesday. Yeah, all notes, I'll squeeze you
Speaker 2: guys in him for three hours, so it's not like
Speaker 2: he's spending No, he.
Speaker 5: Didn't squeeze us in. He didn't squeeze us in. We
Speaker 5: had full day sessions or full night sessions, mostly day sessions,
Speaker 5: and he usually did two sessions a day. So yes,
Speaker 5: we would be in there for maybe eleven to five
Speaker 5: or something like that, and he would take a dinner
Speaker 5: break and maybe he would have another session that evening.
Speaker 5: But we worked, I mean, we know, we worked. We
Speaker 5: were right there, I.
Speaker 2: Mean right in the thick of it, and it didn't
Speaker 2: feel like cutting paste to you like in terms of
Speaker 2: you know, me and I spend more time with him.
Speaker 5: I we felt, we felt that he cared as much
Speaker 5: for us as he did for any of the other
Speaker 5: artists working with and you know, he put us. We
Speaker 5: didn't have a band at the time. It was just
Speaker 5: Daryln and I, So our rhythm section for that second
Speaker 5: album was Bernard Purdy, Gordon Edwards, Richard T. H mc craken,
Speaker 5: Dave's Finosa. Yeah, these are the kind of players we
Speaker 5: were with, and so for the first time Darryl and
Speaker 5: I got to play with these, you know. I mean,
Speaker 5: we had Joe Farrell the saxophone solo and She's Gone
Speaker 5: is Joe Farrell?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Oh wow?
Speaker 5: You know, so we had we had jazz musicians and
Speaker 5: R and B musicians and classical musicians, and you know,
Speaker 5: it was just an amazing thing to be He just
Speaker 5: he would hear our songs and then he would think,
Speaker 5: I know who's right for this, and he would make
Speaker 5: the call. We didn't even know who we'd be walking
Speaker 5: into that day, but we knew that whoever we walked
Speaker 5: into that day was going to be just right for
Speaker 5: the music we were making.
Speaker 2: Okay, I have a question about abandoned Ntenette. Yeah, specifically
Speaker 2: She's Gone. Yep, yeah, Okay, So I've gone through this
Speaker 2: story a lot of times in the Pandemic where it's
Speaker 2: something about keys modulating that scare the living beg this
Speaker 2: out of me, and you know, I mean, be honest,
Speaker 2: like you guys were definitely for drama with the the
Speaker 2: end build up of She's Going, But whose idea was
Speaker 2: it to just do those five modulations?
Speaker 3: Like is this going to be the key? You know?
Speaker 3: Is this going to be the key? Is going to be.
Speaker 5: Talking about.
Speaker 2: At the very end of she's going there's like just
Speaker 2: just are you know, like in a soap opera where
Speaker 2: you have.
Speaker 3: That sort of thing. So there's a part of the.
Speaker 4: Song or like the end of I'm trying for something
Speaker 4: for our for our listeners understand Love on Top by Beyonce,
Speaker 4: like Growing Up, Yeah, it's magic, it's like fourteen times whatever, yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, or Golden Lady by Stevie.
Speaker 2: But the thing is, to me, it's I always knew
Speaker 2: the boogie man was waiting for me at the end
Speaker 2: of every Mirror.
Speaker 8: You got to get over this at some point, man.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what.
Speaker 5: I you know, I believe that that was That was
Speaker 5: a reef's idea to do that, and it was it's
Speaker 5: kind of a cheap shot to modulate to to kind
Speaker 5: of you know, to Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 5: gonna make this song more exciting because I'm gonna modulate
Speaker 5: up a half step. I'm gonna take it up. But
Speaker 5: I'll tell you what, Darryl and I have modulated four
Speaker 5: times in that song. We never modulated again in the
Speaker 5: rest of our career. That's all I got to say
Speaker 5: about that, okay.
Speaker 2: But there's also okay, what's even stranger about that? Is
Speaker 2: one of the very first musical videos I've ever seen.
Speaker 3: Was She's Gone. One of the strangest things.
Speaker 2: I believe where I see She's going.
Speaker 3: I think, Jerry Blabbitt, I know where you saw it.
Speaker 5: You saw it, you saw I'm Philadelph a TV on
Speaker 5: a dance show, on a teenage show.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 5: We got a store, I got a story. I got
Speaker 5: a story for you.
Speaker 2: So the thing is is that I remember I was
Speaker 2: I was five years old.
Speaker 3: I believe that you guys actually did have a devil.
Speaker 2: You know, a woman was a devil. So whatever the
Speaker 2: lyrics were, I payed the devil to replacement. I remember
Speaker 2: you guys sitting on a you guys were sitting on
Speaker 2: a couch, and I just.
Speaker 3: Remember a devil was running around in this video.
Speaker 2: Which the thing is is that, you know, for listeners
Speaker 2: that don't know music, videos was a promotion tool so
Speaker 2: in case you couldn't go overseas and tour, they could
Speaker 2: at least have something to play on those top of
Speaker 2: the Pop shows or Shindig or any of those shows
Speaker 2: that you weren't able to get to you know, if
Speaker 2: you weren't big enough to fly to Europe, so you
Speaker 2: would make performance videos. But soon afterwards, uh, they started
Speaker 2: putting some concepts in there, like Frank Zappa do some
Speaker 2: concept videos. So I definitely remember this being a concept video.
Speaker 2: But for you guys, did you because you used music
Speaker 2: videos to your advance, do you feel the time like
Speaker 2: this was advantageous to the song in your career?
Speaker 5: Well, you have to remember this was over ten years
Speaker 5: before MTV.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, what happened, And I'll tell you what happened.
Speaker 5: She's going to begin to get some popularity, was on
Speaker 5: the charts. They wanted us to lip sync our song
Speaker 5: at a show in New Jersey or at the at
Speaker 5: the Steel Peer. It was called ed Herst Summertime at
Speaker 5: the Pier. It was a teenage dancer, right was Saturday afternoon,
Speaker 5: Saturday afternoon, right, yeah, yes, So Daryl and I were
Speaker 5: thinking about it and we said, wait a minute, I said,
Speaker 5: we can't go down to the Steel Pier, and Liz
Speaker 5: sank she's gone, while a bunch of kids started to
Speaker 5: dance to it to where we said, So we said
Speaker 5: to them, can we just come to the studio and
Speaker 5: just we record the song, you know, video tape the song,
Speaker 5: and then you can show that they didn't know what
Speaker 5: we were going to do though, So let's just remember
Speaker 5: it was nineteen seventy two. Yes, whatever we were doing
Speaker 5: at the time, there was a let's put it this way,
Speaker 5: there was some mine altering substances both there you go, okay.
Speaker 5: So we decided that we were gonna do this weird
Speaker 5: thing where we brought literally the furniture from our apartment
Speaker 5: and my sister, who was a student at Temple University,
Speaker 5: she was going to direct it. The girl who walks
Speaker 5: by in the video is Sarah Daryl's girlfriend from Sarah Smile,
Speaker 5: and the devil was some kid from Long Island who
Speaker 5: is our road manager. We rented in a devil suit.
Speaker 5: I rented a penguin suit with flippers and was wearing
Speaker 5: the bathroom. So I would encourage anyone out there who
Speaker 5: has not seen this video to go on YouTube.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, it never wants it. That's so weird, Like
Speaker 2: I have a list of child memories that not once
Speaker 2: anything like yo, I gotta I totally forgot to see.
Speaker 2: Was it ever on YouTube? It is?
Speaker 5: You can watch it. So we so we did this
Speaker 5: and they got so angry. They got so pissed off
Speaker 5: at us because they thought we were mocking them, and
Speaker 5: I guess in the way we were. But anyway, so
Speaker 5: they told us. They got mad. They called, they called
Speaker 5: Atlantic Records and said, these guys will never get played
Speaker 5: on Philadelphia radio. Who do they think they are? Well, oh,
Speaker 5: it was. It was bad, and we had a backpedal
Speaker 5: to all this stuff with the record company and we
Speaker 5: were just having a crazy time because we were that's
Speaker 5: where we were at. And uh so, anyway, that's how
Speaker 5: that happened.
Speaker 3: You know, my dad had a lot of records in
Speaker 3: the house.
Speaker 2: Shortly thereafter, almost immediately as that song is going to
Speaker 2: the charts, I know that Tavars it also covered She's Gone,
Speaker 2: So there was This is almost the same similar situation
Speaker 2: with the Fifth Dimension in Dinah Ross, like releasing Love
Speaker 2: Hangover at the same time, like Tavars and Hall of
Speaker 2: Notes are kind of fighting for airplay time for She's
Speaker 2: Gone at the time.
Speaker 3: Were you guys cool?
Speaker 5: No, I'm sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but
Speaker 5: not quite. We have released We had released She's Gone
Speaker 5: and went into the top forty, but it didn't go
Speaker 5: much higher than that. Then after that, Tavaris recorded and
Speaker 5: went to number one. It was a number one R
Speaker 5: and B record.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, that's what I do, the Tavares version.
Speaker 5: And people said people, people said, oh, man, you believe
Speaker 5: it's just number one R and B record. Darrenly are like, yeah,
Speaker 5: that makes perfect sense to me. And then we released
Speaker 5: it again after Tarvaris, when Sarah Smile was out and
Speaker 5: it went into the it was I would think it
Speaker 5: went to number two.
Speaker 2: Man, okay, but you got you guys were fine and
Speaker 2: cool with that.
Speaker 3: Then you know, hey, no, I was happy.
Speaker 5: But even Lou Rawls got that song.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: The next record with war Babies, could you talk about
Speaker 2: working with Todd Todd Rundren on that record.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, we had moved to New York City, and
Speaker 5: so the war Babies record was a direct a reaction
Speaker 5: to leaving Philadelphia and being in New York and experiencing
Speaker 5: New York and the difference between New York and Philadelphia.
Speaker 5: New York was so big, much bigger and more faster
Speaker 5: and chaotic, and you know, and and we we really
Speaker 5: you know, even though the Abandoned Lunch and Net was
Speaker 5: a great record, it's still one of my favorites. It
Speaker 5: didn't really it wasn't very successful. So at the time,
Speaker 5: the record business was completely different than it is now,
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, you know how it is now.
Speaker 5: If you if you if you don't have a hit
Speaker 5: on your first record, making a second record, yeah, yeah, Well,
Speaker 5: in those days, record companies signed you because they actually
Speaker 5: believed that you could have a career that maybe you know,
Speaker 5: you could evolve and develop creatively. So but we had
Speaker 5: no we had no reason to do the same type
Speaker 5: of record because it wasn't successful. So we said, well,
Speaker 5: let's just try something different. And you know, Todd had
Speaker 5: having moved from Philly to New York. We figured he'd
Speaker 5: have something, you know, he could relate to it. To
Speaker 5: be honest with you, we were just trying to be experimental.
Speaker 5: We were trying to push the boundaries and see how
Speaker 5: far we could go. It's it's not one of my
Speaker 5: favorite records. I didn't feel comfortable in that style. It
Speaker 5: was a lot more I think. I think the thing
Speaker 5: about Todd and his style of production is that you know,
Speaker 5: if you if you want Todd Runger and you get
Speaker 5: Todd Runger, you know, there's no denying what you're going
Speaker 5: to get. And so you know, for me personally, not
Speaker 5: one of my favorites, but I think it did. Was
Speaker 5: it It gave us the ability to be more kind
Speaker 5: of in that in that experimental rock genre. And then
Speaker 5: going forward, we we combined, we combined the Philly R
Speaker 5: and B the folky stuff that we were doing, and
Speaker 5: that war Baby's thing all together and that's what enabled
Speaker 5: us to find a sound of our own.
Speaker 2: So for your the next record, I mentioned this at
Speaker 2: the Rock and Mall Hall of Fame. Uh the record.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know what you're gonna say, Who's.
Speaker 2: Whose idea was it for the cover design to do
Speaker 2: the because you know, the Androgis thing was coming into
Speaker 2: play with what Bowie was doing, and I think, like
Speaker 2: I think the Stones did, it would go ted suit
Speaker 2: like for you what was the the marketing idea of
Speaker 2: that cover and.
Speaker 5: It was That's exactly what it was. It was. It
Speaker 5: was a moment in time. That's what was happening in
Speaker 5: New York City and Greenwich Village at the time. You know,
Speaker 5: it was Rick Darringer.
Speaker 9: Tyrung Gren, Mick Jagger, Bowie and we were you know,
Speaker 9: we caught up in that whole down scene that was
Speaker 9: happening in Philly, in New York or rather, and we
Speaker 9: met this guy named Pierre Laroche, who was the stylist
Speaker 9: for all those records, for every.
Speaker 5: One of those records that you mentioned, and I remember
Speaker 5: we had dinner with him and he said, I remember
Speaker 5: what he said. He said, I will immortalize you. And
Speaker 5: you know what, it's the only the only album cover
Speaker 5: anyone ever asked us about, and it has nothing to
Speaker 5: do with the music inside.
Speaker 2: But see about hdo But okay, of course, the breakout
Speaker 2: single from that is Sarah Smile. At this time, are
Speaker 2: you guys coining the term blue eyed soul?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 3: How you know?
Speaker 5: We never really liked that phrase, you know. To me,
Speaker 5: to be honest with you, I just think, you know,
Speaker 5: it's to me, it's kind of offensive. And I'll tell
Speaker 5: you why I think it. It kind of takes white
Speaker 5: guys trying to sound black guys, okay, And I don't
Speaker 5: think that's what we do. I think we sound like
Speaker 5: the way we sound, and if we've got soul, then
Speaker 5: good and I hope it comes through, and you know,
Speaker 5: to me, and I don't. I don't want to get
Speaker 5: too philosophical about this. But to me, soul is not
Speaker 5: is doesn't belong to any race, creed, nationality. I mean,
Speaker 5: you know, I hear music. I hear soulful music and
Speaker 5: all sorts of music around the world. I mean, you know,
Speaker 5: there's Irish music that's very soulful, there's American Indian music
Speaker 5: is unbelievably soulful. So I think soul is a thing
Speaker 5: that touches you. It moves you emotionally, and that's what
Speaker 5: soul is. If you hear music that makes you move,
Speaker 5: whether it's physically move or makes your your your emotions move.
Speaker 5: To me, that's what soul is. So at least I
Speaker 5: got it out on the table.
Speaker 8: It's very similar to what Bonnie read that yeah on
Speaker 8: our show as well with Crutch of the Blues and
Speaker 8: her experience growing up listening to that stuff.
Speaker 4: Other Avana is like you know, the I think from
Speaker 4: when I listen to artists. You know, if it was
Speaker 4: white artists, I think, more so than anything, you just
Speaker 4: want to see those artists give credit to what they
Speaker 4: grew up on.
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: I don't think it's you know what I'm saying, And
Speaker 4: you know that's what I kind of always saw with
Speaker 4: you guys, and just with the white artists that kind
Speaker 4: of fell into that, you know, that what you call
Speaker 4: blue out soul, like a Mike McDonald or whatever. You know,
Speaker 4: they always bigged up the stuff that they grew up on.
Speaker 4: And I think the only time it really becomes an
Speaker 4: issue is when you know, a white artist is.
Speaker 3: Like, oh no, this is just all me.
Speaker 4: It's like, no, the fuck it ain't, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, That's that's where the problem comes in. But
Speaker 4: I agree, I mean, it's you can find the elements
Speaker 4: of soul in all music. It's a feeling more so
Speaker 4: than it is just a genre or whatever.
Speaker 5: You're You're absolutely right, it's we you know, we were
Speaker 5: all products of what came before us. You know, we
Speaker 5: we there's not one person on this planet who just
Speaker 5: comes out of the womb and is a total, unique original.
Speaker 5: Maybe there are a few. What we do and who
Speaker 5: we are is about our It's our It's in our DNA,
Speaker 5: it's in our upbringing, it's in the place we live,
Speaker 5: it's in the experiences that we experience, and that's who
Speaker 5: we are. And you know, and I've I've always made
Speaker 5: a point to uh, to be very clear that you know,
Speaker 5: to point to my roots and the music that that
Speaker 5: made me who I am, and I honor it and
Speaker 5: I try to and I'm very respectful for it, and
Speaker 5: I always try to to make sure that you know,
Speaker 5: people understand that, hey, this is where it all comes from.
Speaker 3: Facts.
Speaker 2: I think on this record, well, one you guys are
Speaker 2: producing it, and two, yeah, you have the monsters on here.
Speaker 2: So I could assume that Ed Green is drumming on
Speaker 2: Sarah's Smile.
Speaker 5: I believe it was at Green on Sara. We had
Speaker 5: three out three drummers on that record.
Speaker 2: Well, based on them drum fills, I hope that you
Speaker 2: know Ed Greham of Barry White fame and whatnot.
Speaker 3: And also on bass h Leland.
Speaker 5: Clark, Yes, yes, and we had Scotti Edwards as well
Speaker 5: on the.
Speaker 3: Base and here's Steve right back. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love when you're using when you're using these uh,
Speaker 2: these monster musicians, like can you just because I will
Speaker 2: also say that consistent levels. But once you get to
Speaker 2: the Faces album that you guys capture and consistent you know,
Speaker 2: I know that musicians were quote unquote diamond doesn't in
Speaker 2: the seventies and whatnot, But how do you is it
Speaker 2: just a matter of whoever's available, or is there a
Speaker 2: particular musician that you're looking for to give you a
Speaker 2: particul or it sound like, how do you grab the
Speaker 2: musician that you want and how do you know who's
Speaker 2: the best guy to use?
Speaker 5: You know, musicians through their reputation obviously, you know. But
Speaker 5: the Silver album that won with Sarah Small on it,
Speaker 5: that was the first album that we made in California.
Speaker 5: We made that in LA. And we made that in
Speaker 5: LA for a reason. We had an interest for Bond,
Speaker 5: who was actually from Philadelphia, who was in our band
Speaker 5: very briefly, and he went to LA to try to
Speaker 5: make his mark as a session player and a producer.
Speaker 5: And after the Todd Runggern album when that didn't connect,
Speaker 5: and you know, we realized that wasn't the right direction either,
Speaker 5: he said, you guys should come to LA because I've
Speaker 5: got great musicians, I've got the best studios. Come out here,
Speaker 5: and we should make the record out here. And so
Speaker 5: we took a leap of faith. We just said, hey, man,
Speaker 5: why not and we went to We went to California,
Speaker 5: and you know, in the mid seventies in California, they
Speaker 5: did have the best recording studios in the country. It
Speaker 5: was all the best recording technologies, best engineers, and Chris found,
Speaker 5: uh you know, he found he was friends with Ed
Speaker 5: Green and and he brought in Lee Scarr and you know,
Speaker 5: we had Jeff Bercaro, and we had who was it
Speaker 5: who else on drums, Jim Keltner. Yeah, we had all
Speaker 5: all sorts of amazing musicians and they were all available
Speaker 5: because we were in LA. So it was definitely it
Speaker 5: was definitely a new experience to be in l A
Speaker 5: and record with those guys. And yeah, we got great
Speaker 5: results and we made three albums in LA.
Speaker 2: So there was was there truth to the rumor that
Speaker 2: you guys were initially going to do something for the
Speaker 2: Rocky soundtrack because of the Philly connection at one point
Speaker 2: for the first movie.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a song called Grounds for Separation. Grounds
Speaker 5: for Separation was on on that album and uh so
Speaker 5: Lesser Stallone. Uh he used that song as temp music
Speaker 5: in the in the in the movie when they were editing.
Speaker 5: And you know how it, you know it is with
Speaker 5: a film. If you start using music, you kind of
Speaker 5: you kind of get get married to it and you
Speaker 5: can't demo.
Speaker 3: That's the movie game.
Speaker 5: You know, I have no idea why it didn't happen,
Speaker 5: but it was a big mistake.
Speaker 3: Your Oh it's nail on the matole. Okay, all right,
Speaker 3: I don't know you know what, I.
Speaker 5: Don't know who. I don't know who thought that was
Speaker 5: wasn't a good idea. But whoever thought it wasn't a
Speaker 5: good idea wasn't too sure. Actually asked Daryl about that. Yes,
Speaker 5: Darrel about that?
Speaker 2: Who have a good I will ask Darryl about that? Okay, Well, okay,
Speaker 2: for what I what I'm allowed to ask about him
Speaker 2: was were you his first clients? Yes, okay, so you
Speaker 2: had him when he was like a twenty year old,
Speaker 2: like out of college or something.
Speaker 5: Well, let's if you can, if we can wind back
Speaker 5: a little bit to that story I told you about
Speaker 5: when we were going from Philly to New York auditioning
Speaker 5: at Chapel Music. On one of those trips, when we
Speaker 5: went and played our new songs for Chapel Music when
Speaker 5: we were songwriters, this young kid, Tommy Mattola was in
Speaker 5: the room. He was a song plugger for Chapel Music
Speaker 5: at the time, and after one of those sessions he
Speaker 5: came up to it said, well, you know, what do
Speaker 5: you guys, what's what's your deal? And we're like, we
Speaker 5: don't have a deal, and we got nothing going on.
Speaker 5: We're you know, we're playing our songs for people. People
Speaker 5: seem to like him, but nothing's happening. He goes, let
Speaker 5: me see if I can help you, and that's how
Speaker 5: he became our manager. He basically he had never managed
Speaker 5: anybody in his life, and he was just a He
Speaker 5: was the same age as us, and you know, we
Speaker 5: were in our twenties early twenties, and he said, I
Speaker 5: think I can help you, and he started to help us.
Speaker 5: And when we wanted to break out of our deal
Speaker 5: with that guy and Philly, we he kind of helped
Speaker 5: us with that, and that's how he became our manager for.
Speaker 2: The Bigger and both of us records that has a
Speaker 2: rich girl on Can I ask was it was your label?
Speaker 3: Ever?
Speaker 2: Do they ever ask you, guys to slightly change the
Speaker 2: lyric to get on radio. I'm only okay, I'm only
Speaker 2: asking this, and I hate bringing up the story. When
Speaker 2: you're young and you live with strict parents, it's not
Speaker 2: like it comes with a manual on words that you're
Speaker 2: allowed to say and not allowed to say, it's just that,
Speaker 2: you know, it's a curse word if you get hit
Speaker 2: and you said the word and didn't.
Speaker 3: Know it was a curse word. So of course I'm
Speaker 3: reading the song lyrics and I kept singing it's a
Speaker 3: bitch girl, and I sat, oh wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, okay, let's let's think about that. Let's think
Speaker 5: about that in the context of the music that's out
Speaker 5: there today.
Speaker 3: I'm not blaming off for it.
Speaker 5: No, no, no, I'm not. I'm laughing about it because
Speaker 5: it seems so silly to me. It's like crazy and
Speaker 5: you okay, so you know what they you know what?
Speaker 5: You know what happened with that? It was okay, here,
Speaker 5: here's here's I messed up the music businesses. It was
Speaker 5: okay for the album cut, but the single. We had
Speaker 5: to change it for the single. So they they they
Speaker 5: made Daryl go in the studio and sing brich. He
Speaker 5: had to put an R in the words. If you
Speaker 5: listen to this single, it's britch. You can barely tell,
Speaker 5: but it's there. And so just by doing that, that
Speaker 5: was okay. It was so stupid.
Speaker 3: I guess the intention was bitch.
Speaker 5: I'm confused.
Speaker 3: Way the intention was bitch? Yeah, the lyric was bitch,
Speaker 3: but you couldn't say that, you.
Speaker 7: Couldn't on the radio and all my life, I did
Speaker 7: not all my life and all my life.
Speaker 3: What do you think it was? She's a girl?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then then he goes back and says, it's
Speaker 2: a bitch girl.
Speaker 5: He does.
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 7: Okay, I'm not the only one that in this moment.
Speaker 2: Are you familiar with the Philippe when One of a
Speaker 2: Kind love and fair story?
Speaker 5: No, I'm not familiar to the story, but he's one
Speaker 5: of my favorite singers of all time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, he's He's definitely out there. He did a
Speaker 2: rogue move. I always wanted to know when how did
Speaker 2: he get kicked out the group? And this they can
Speaker 2: get it kicked out the group. But this sort of
Speaker 2: put the group on high alert that he could be rogue.
Speaker 2: So the next time you listen to One of a
Speaker 2: Kind of Love affair towards the end, I had gotten
Speaker 2: a forty five of this maybe back in nineteen ninety seven,
Speaker 2: and I saw that it said edited version, and at first, no, no,
Speaker 2: it said un censored version, censored version, And in my mind,
Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, this is the Spinners, not n W
Speaker 2: A like what could be censored on the Spinners thing?
Speaker 2: And I happen to ask somebody who used to work
Speaker 2: at Atlantic, and they told me the story that basically
Speaker 2: Felipe in the very last rounds of that libs one
Speaker 2: of the kind of affairs he says, you know you
Speaker 2: want to love Hut, you just gotta fuck her, And yeah,
Speaker 2: he got away with it. I think they got away
Speaker 2: with it for like eleven weeks and then suddenly the
Speaker 2: FCC started, you know, like someone caught.
Speaker 3: It on the radio and then like kind of shit
Speaker 3: and he and he didn't deny it at all, So.
Speaker 5: You know, I like him even more now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: So could you could you talk about in your opinion,
Speaker 2: because you guys won't basically have kind of hit your
Speaker 2: stride at least with the hits until four years later.
Speaker 2: So that period in between, like with the Nigga Bays
Speaker 2: record with Beauty on Backstreet and uh, the the Livetime
Speaker 2: record like oh and also the I think Ecstatic for
Speaker 2: those five records, what was generally happening with you guys
Speaker 2: and in terms of where he wanted to go.
Speaker 5: And yeah, I can I can tell exactly what's happened.
Speaker 5: So we went down the La do that silver album
Speaker 5: and it was successful with Sarah Smile. Then she She's Done.
Speaker 5: That was successful. Then Rich Girl came on the next
Speaker 5: one that was successful. So I so we were a
Speaker 5: role and we were playing bigger you know, bigger arenas
Speaker 5: and things like that. Then came the Beauty on a
Speaker 5: Backstreet novel. And what happened was and I can I
Speaker 5: can tell this story because you know, God bless him.
Speaker 5: Chrispaond had passed away a few years ago. He was
Speaker 5: a brilliant musician and producer, but he was a very,
Speaker 5: very damaged individual, and as we got more successful, hegan
Speaker 5: to lose it and he began to overindulge in substance abuse.
Speaker 5: So when we went out to do the third album,
Speaker 5: which ended up being Beauty on a Backstreet, he was
Speaker 5: very very iraq. In fact, we had to cancel sessions
Speaker 5: because he passed out. It was cracked his head on
Speaker 5: the on the control, you know, on the on the console,
Speaker 5: and UH got to be taken a hospital. It was
Speaker 5: it was a bad scene and so he barely made
Speaker 5: through the album. And that album, to me, is the
Speaker 5: darkest thing we've ever done. And I don't really care
Speaker 5: for it, and I never listened to that record ever.
Speaker 5: So what happened was because we had no hits and
Speaker 5: that record wasn't very successful, we kind of, you know,
Speaker 5: kind of fell off the radar a little bit and there.
Speaker 5: And I think one of the smartest things we ever
Speaker 5: did during that period of time was we said, you know,
Speaker 5: we've been recording all our albums with studio musicians and
Speaker 5: it's been great, but what we really need is a
Speaker 5: great live band, and we need a live band that's
Speaker 5: so good that we can take that same band into
Speaker 5: the studio. And at the time, right at that time,
Speaker 5: Elton John was just finishing up the Yellow Brick Road,
Speaker 5: and we made friends with the Elton John band, which
Speaker 5: was Caleb Quay, Kenny Passilli, and Roger Pope, and we
Speaker 5: basically adopted them, and all of a sudden, we had
Speaker 5: this kick ass live band that we could take into
Speaker 5: the studio, and we did this album called Along the
Speaker 5: Red Ledge right, and we had a lot of guests
Speaker 5: on that album, and we bring David Foster, who had
Speaker 5: never produced a record before. We were his first artists
Speaker 5: David Foster ever produced.
Speaker 2: Oh this is the year before After the Love is
Speaker 2: Going so okay. So he worked with you guys first, and.
Speaker 5: I got to tell you about it After Love Is
Speaker 5: Gone too, because when we were getting ready to do
Speaker 5: the album with David Foster, he said, I got a
Speaker 5: song for you guys. Boy, oh yeah, and he said
Speaker 5: here check he had written it with Dave Graydon, yes,
Speaker 5: And so he sat Me and Darrel were sitting in
Speaker 5: his living room and he played it on the piano
Speaker 5: and he can't sing for ship, but he's an amazing
Speaker 5: Danna player, and he was singing and he was doing
Speaker 5: after the Love Is Gone, and we're like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: I know vocals due. I mean, if you hear if
Speaker 5: you think about it now, you can hear us do
Speaker 5: it many major mistakes in our career.
Speaker 7: What did you think about when you heard the Earth
Speaker 7: Winning I was just curious.
Speaker 5: And he went and did it with earth Wind and Fire.
Speaker 3: When you you heard Earth Win five version, was that like?
Speaker 3: Did did you get it then?
Speaker 4: In a way that maybe you didn't get when when
Speaker 4: David trying to sing it.
Speaker 5: I got it the first time.
Speaker 3: It's also fronte.
Speaker 2: It's also a little weird because even Philip himself says
Speaker 2: that that song for him was sort of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was a success, but you know, you also got
Speaker 2: to understand that Charles Stephanie just died and they I'm
Speaker 2: not saying they got back. It's weird to think of
Speaker 2: all in all as the earthword and fire gets by
Speaker 2: off the skin of their teeth. But just the fact
Speaker 2: that Marie was able to make that record without Charles
Speaker 2: and still do something lind blowing so wanted he had
Speaker 2: that one record in him and then you know, called
Speaker 2: him for David to help him. But I remember a
Speaker 2: lot of fans kind of feeling the same way about
Speaker 2: After the Love Is Going is maybe like about cool
Speaker 2: in the Gang's here celebration or like yeah, it's like that.
Speaker 2: But now I think about it, man, it had all
Speaker 2: had all of it done after the Love Is Going,
Speaker 2: I think that that would have with the right musicianship,
Speaker 2: that probably could have just ousted Bobby Callwell.
Speaker 3: Just as far as love the.
Speaker 2: Definitive slow jam like yeah the Blue Eye like that, I.
Speaker 5: Mean, yeah, we would have crushed it.
Speaker 7: But it speaks to David Foster because the song was
Speaker 7: banging either way.
Speaker 5: Hey listen, Dave. David Foster wrote a great so he's
Speaker 5: an incredibly talented amazing guy, but he wasn't right for
Speaker 5: us as a producer. But at least, you know, we
Speaker 5: did get to work with him for a couple of albums.
Speaker 5: And then you mentioned Static. We brought David to New
Speaker 5: York to record that record because we didn't want to
Speaker 5: be in l A anymore. And he in the middle
Speaker 5: of that record, he said, what am I doing here?
Speaker 5: You guys are making this record yourself. You don't need me.
Speaker 5: And that was the last time we ever us an
Speaker 5: outside producer.
Speaker 2: It's almost like you guys became a brand new group
Speaker 2: with the Voices record.
Speaker 5: Another another career misstep. Really we uh we We were
Speaker 5: finally back in New York where we wanted to be,
Speaker 5: and we had a band that could that we finally
Speaker 5: achieved what we knew we needed to do. We had
Speaker 5: developed a live band that could play live and kick
Speaker 5: ass and we could take them in the studio and that.
Speaker 5: But we were also producing ourselves. There was no one
Speaker 5: else except us in the engineer and so we did it.
Speaker 5: We made the kind of record we wanted to make,
Speaker 5: and I think it was just a very inspiring time.
Speaker 5: Great musicians, great songs, and it was just it was
Speaker 5: it was happening. We were we were glad to be
Speaker 5: out of LA and I think that we had a
Speaker 5: New York had a big energy in nineteen eighty, you know,
Speaker 5: and we kind of tapped into it.
Speaker 2: Speaking speaking of your bands, you know, by that point
Speaker 2: at least, that to me was like the last era
Speaker 2: of musicianship where not only did you care about the artists,
Speaker 2: but you also cared for their band too. And you
Speaker 2: guys had a really charismatic band. Longtime fans will instantly
Speaker 2: recognize that. You know, the great g Smith was your
Speaker 2: guitar player long before he was a Yeah, the SNL
Speaker 2: musical director of like the eighties and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Also Tom t boam Walk.
Speaker 5: One of the greatest of all time.
Speaker 3: Dude, do you know how crust I was so Steve?
Speaker 3: Do you remember they were coming.
Speaker 2: On the ninth show to perform and they had to
Speaker 2: cancel because we booked you in twenty ten and Tom
Speaker 2: had passed.
Speaker 3: The morning the morning of Yes, but could you talk
Speaker 3: about that band, but just your whole.
Speaker 2: Just your whole crew by that point, like is eighty
Speaker 2: when you sort of solidified that band.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's when it started. That's when that band jailed
Speaker 5: right after the Voices album and that band uh Here
Speaker 5: again was finally the you know, we still were in
Speaker 5: that search for that ultimate band that could play live
Speaker 5: and be in the studio and that that's when we
Speaker 5: found h. Ge joined us first, and he brought in
Speaker 5: Mickey Curry on drums. Right. Mickey was a friend of
Speaker 5: his who had played in bar bands with him, and
Speaker 5: Mickey had never played in a professional band other than
Speaker 5: you know before us. When we had Ge and Mickey.
Speaker 5: It's kind of a funny story. We were looking for
Speaker 5: a bass player and we we did some auditions at
Speaker 5: s I R. I don't know if you got time
Speaker 5: for this.
Speaker 3: But totally.
Speaker 5: We were looking. We had Ge and Mickey and we
Speaker 5: really needed it. We knew we needed a really great
Speaker 5: bass player and we had done some auditions and most
Speaker 5: of the guys were not up to up to it.
Speaker 5: And we had come down to two guys and there
Speaker 5: was this one kid from Long Island. He was tall
Speaker 5: and skinny, he had a great haircut, he was a
Speaker 5: good looking guy. And then there was Tom Woke who
Speaker 5: had not been named t Bone yet. He was just
Speaker 5: Tom Woke, right, and he was kind of a you know,
Speaker 5: he kind of wore flannel shirts and a cap, and
Speaker 5: he lived in Austin and New York. And you know,
Speaker 5: they were both really good players, right. We didn't you know,
Speaker 5: we didn't play with them a lot, but we we
Speaker 5: kind of tested them out. So it came down to
Speaker 5: these two guys. Right, so we finally had the finals.
Speaker 5: We had the we're gonna have the audition between these
Speaker 5: two bass players. So the guy comes in, the kid
Speaker 5: from Long Island, the good looking guy comes in, and
Speaker 5: he was kind of cocky. He felt like he had
Speaker 5: the gig. And you know, we played a couple of
Speaker 5: songs and he was good. You know, so after and
Speaker 5: T Bone came in, No, no, I'm sorry, hold on.
Speaker 5: T Bone came in first and he played. He was amazing,
Speaker 5: and he left. And then the other kid came in
Speaker 5: and he played, and after he was done, he felt
Speaker 5: like he really was in the band. And I remember
Speaker 5: he turned around to us and he said, actually turned
Speaker 5: around to Darryl and we were sitting around, and he said, hey, Daryl,
Speaker 5: when I'm in the band, I think I should sing
Speaker 5: kiss on my list. And remember Daryl turned abound and said, hey, John,
Speaker 5: go get the balld guy.
Speaker 3: You're serious.
Speaker 5: Yeah, Darrel said, let's get the ball guy, and that's
Speaker 5: how we got That's how we got t Bone man.
Speaker 5: It was the best decision we ever made.
Speaker 3: Ever talked to himself out a gig. Wow, he didn't eat.
Speaker 5: Was he serious or just don't know whether he was
Speaker 5: serious or not. But if he wasn't serious, it was
Speaker 5: an asshole. So it doesn't matter word.
Speaker 3: One voice is the original voice.
Speaker 2: The original version of every Time You Go Away was
Speaker 2: on that record? Yeah, Was that ever released as a
Speaker 2: single off that record? Was that just an album cut?
Speaker 5: It was? It was the last track on the B side.
Speaker 5: And you know, back in the days when you're making
Speaker 5: vinyl records, the last track on the B side was
Speaker 5: was either the art record that you couldn't fit anywhere
Speaker 5: else or it was like the throwaway record, and he
Speaker 5: didn't think of it. If you listen to our version,
Speaker 5: it sounds like a Stone Stacks, Volt Stamm and Dave track.
Speaker 5: I mean it is. It's real, authentic and real raw.
Speaker 5: And you know, to give Paul Young credit, those guys
Speaker 5: heard it and they turned it into a great pop song.
Speaker 5: But but if you listen to our version, our versions,
Speaker 5: I think is great too. But it's not a single.
Speaker 5: It's not a pop single.
Speaker 2: Longtime QLs head should also know that piano Palladino is
Speaker 2: playing based on the Paul Young version of every Time
Speaker 2: You Go Away.
Speaker 3: Why were they two album covers for voices?
Speaker 5: Because because we were trying to control everything, we didn't
Speaker 5: want the record company to tell us what to do,
Speaker 5: so we made our own album covers black and white.
Speaker 5: And we didn't know what to do. So we took
Speaker 5: a picture of Darryl and a picture of me and
Speaker 5: we tore him in half and we pasted it together
Speaker 5: and we sent it to the record company, said put
Speaker 5: this on the cover, and they they didn't want to
Speaker 5: do it, but they did it because they had to
Speaker 5: they because we made them do it. And what happened
Speaker 5: was the record got released. We were really popular in
Speaker 5: Japan at the time and they we were going to
Speaker 5: do the Japanese tour, and the Japanese record company said,
Speaker 5: we hate this record album cover, and so they made
Speaker 5: their own album cover without telling us. So when we
Speaker 5: got to Japan, there was that album cover with me
Speaker 5: with the pink pants, right yeah, and the Japanese people
Speaker 5: they had that picture. It was a publicity picture there
Speaker 5: and they just stuck it on the album. They didn't
Speaker 5: even tell us, and we said, hey, what, so we
Speaker 5: get to Japan, we have a new we have a
Speaker 5: new album cover, and so that's so. Then America re
Speaker 5: released the album with that Japanese cover.
Speaker 3: That's crazy because I like the black and white version better.
Speaker 5: That's because you have good taste with.
Speaker 2: The transition of the eighties, were you guys thinking about,
Speaker 2: you know, the versioning new wave movement or the stuff
Speaker 2: that like Gary Numan was doing with drum machine technology
Speaker 2: and whatnot, Like how how is modern technology coming into
Speaker 2: to play with the band?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 2: Starting with that, because I think it was notable to
Speaker 2: not just use the drum machine as a click track,
Speaker 2: but to actually make it part of the song.
Speaker 5: Were we were using something called a rolling comfy rhythm.
Speaker 5: It was a little wooden little wooden box, little square box.
Speaker 5: It had four presets rock one rock, two bossa Nova
Speaker 5: and samba, and you had a rotary knob that would
Speaker 5: you could adjust the tempo by a rotary nob. But
Speaker 5: it didn't tell you how what the temple was. It
Speaker 5: was just you just had a feeling. We would use
Speaker 5: that for a feel for just when we were trying
Speaker 5: you know, kind of going over the track and trying
Speaker 5: to get the right tempo, the right field. What happened
Speaker 5: with Kiss on My List. Kiss on My List was
Speaker 5: never intended to be on the record. That was a
Speaker 5: song that Daryl wrote with Jana Allen, who was Sarah's sister,
Speaker 5: who was a young song writer, and she came up
Speaker 5: with the idea. Daryl helped her with it, and she
Speaker 5: wanted to make a record. So it was at the
Speaker 5: end of one of our sessions for voices and we
Speaker 5: were all done for the day and Darrel said, let me,
Speaker 5: let me just make this demo for jam because you know,
Speaker 5: I promised her i'd, you know, lay it down for her.
Speaker 5: So he went in on the piano with the with
Speaker 5: the rhythm hit rock one, you know, and you know,
Speaker 5: and he just played the song. So we didn't want
Speaker 5: to waste tape, so we recorded it at fifteen ips
Speaker 5: instead of thirty ips because it was a throwaway. It
Speaker 5: was a demo, So after it was done, it was
Speaker 5: just the piano and the copy rhythm and we played it.
Speaker 5: I guess Darrek played it, might have played it for
Speaker 5: Tommy Mattola or someone, and everybody flipped out. And said,
Speaker 5: that's amazing. You guys got to cut this. So we
Speaker 5: didn't really want to recut it because it sounded really
Speaker 5: good the way it was. It was on fifteen ips,
Speaker 5: So the song has this kind of warbly thickness to it.
Speaker 3: Yes, it does.
Speaker 5: And all we did was add add a couple of
Speaker 5: instruments to it, bass, guitar, you know, some little pads,
Speaker 5: and that's the way we put it out. So it
Speaker 5: really it was supposed to be a demo and that's
Speaker 5: why we kept a copy rhythm on it, just like that.
Speaker 3: I always wanted to know go on my forty five.
Speaker 2: On my forty five of Kiss on My List, I
Speaker 2: believe the B side was Africa. Is that you guys
Speaker 2: doing a sort of a your Bo Diddley homage there?
Speaker 3: Or Yeah?
Speaker 5: That was my That was my song that I wrote
Speaker 5: for my girlfriend at the time, who was a model
Speaker 5: working around the world, and she was she was in Africa,
Speaker 5: and I just.
Speaker 3: Thought it was kind of funny Africa.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I don't know, it was kind of feel Yeah,
Speaker 2: Africa was just one of those songs where I constantly
Speaker 2: had it on rotation on my forty five. You know,
Speaker 2: if you put the arm over to the right. Then
Speaker 2: you're gonna have the song repeat over and over and
Speaker 2: over again. And I just always remembered, like the summer
Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty, like that was always the I just
Speaker 2: always kept it on the B side for the Private
Speaker 2: Eyes record. All right, I got to cut to the
Speaker 2: chase man, you know. And due to the lasting power
Speaker 2: of it to this day, you know, DJ gigs are
Speaker 2: not complete for half of America's DJ days.
Speaker 3: If I can't go for that is not.
Speaker 2: Played, Could you please give us the story of how
Speaker 2: that song came to be because it's such it's such
Speaker 2: a reverence the way that it's just stripped down and
Speaker 2: sounds sounds so revolutionary.
Speaker 5: That the session was over, everyone had gone. Me, Darryl
Speaker 5: and the engineer were in the studio and we were
Speaker 5: an electric lady. And Darryl walked out into the studio
Speaker 5: with the electric piano and here again the rolling Company rhythm,
Speaker 5: which always sat on his pianel, so we could basically
Speaker 5: work through tracks. And he had an idea. I guess
Speaker 5: he had that idea in his head, but he never
Speaker 5: said anything to me or anybody. It was just maybe
Speaker 5: something that was just going around his head. And he
Speaker 5: hit rock one and whatever tempo was on it, I
Speaker 5: don't know whatever that was said at and he just
Speaker 5: started playing his left hand. He just started playing bong
Speaker 5: and unmo dong goo goom go, and then he started
Speaker 5: playing and then he said, man, hey, John, get your guitar.
Speaker 5: And I got the guitar and he actually suggested to
Speaker 5: me to play this line. He goes play play. I
Speaker 5: muted like a like a funk line, and I stuck
Speaker 5: turning unt dunt, dunlearn it throw, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 5: it just like went like this. You know, it was like, okay,
Speaker 5: there's this does need anything? This is like it right here.
Speaker 5: It's the left hand of the keyboard, the guitar thing,
Speaker 5: and that was it on that song. The only thing
Speaker 5: that's on that song is is the keyboard, the guitar,
Speaker 5: sax solo and one synthesizer thing right and and then
Speaker 5: background vocals. That's the whole song was.
Speaker 2: Whose idea was to make it sound as stripped down
Speaker 2: because to me, that drum machine is such a radical
Speaker 2: sound to it.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's two versions of it.
Speaker 2: The twelve inch has more brighter drum mixed to it,
Speaker 2: but the album cut version.
Speaker 3: I can't describe to me.
Speaker 2: It was almost like an improved version of the drums
Speaker 2: that slide was.
Speaker 5: That album you know, there's lit going on. That had
Speaker 5: that same quality to it that you said. It was
Speaker 5: stripped down and raw and it was dry. There was
Speaker 5: just this thing. I mean sometimes when when you know
Speaker 5: you don't have to have a lot if it's the
Speaker 5: right combination of you know, of tonalities. When you get
Speaker 5: the right tonalities and they're not fighting each other, they
Speaker 5: all have their place, you know, they got they're all
Speaker 5: in the right place. That's all you need. You don't
Speaker 5: need anything else. And I think we were We were
Speaker 5: smart enough to realize that it was the groove was
Speaker 5: was was major and it was just that was it.
Speaker 5: That's all you needed.
Speaker 2: No One told you, guys like this group might be
Speaker 2: undercooked a little bit, like it needs something else or nobody.
Speaker 5: Nobody told us anything because we never let.
Speaker 3: Anyone in the studio. I love it.
Speaker 5: Just the engineer engineering the band. Yeah, no record comfort people.
Speaker 8: It's the great engineers from Electric Lady. I don't know
Speaker 8: what's what's going on, must be something in the water
Speaker 8: over there. I have a question for you. John was
Speaker 8: private eyed the first album that you did go to
Speaker 8: Electric Lady forks. I know you went there for a
Speaker 8: few Yeah.
Speaker 5: I think we did voices at the Hit Factory. I'm
Speaker 5: pretty sure voices was done at the Hit Factory. Uh.
Speaker 5: And then we started Private Eye at the Hit Factory.
Speaker 5: And Darryl and I both lived in the village. We
Speaker 5: both lived very very close to Eighth Street, and we
Speaker 5: just wanted to walk to the studio. That's that's why
Speaker 5: we picked Electric Ladio. We wanted to be able to walk.
Speaker 5: I wanted to be able to walk to the studio
Speaker 5: and walk to Balducci's and that was that.
Speaker 2: Was that was the criteria for for for me, at
Speaker 2: least my era of Electric Lady.
Speaker 3: There's this you know, revered thing for.
Speaker 2: For Hendrix, like wow, was the House of Indrix. But
Speaker 2: back then was it like that or was it just like, Hey,
Speaker 2: there's a studio on Eighth Street, let's just go there
Speaker 2: and make a record. Yeah, yeah, I mean sure didn't
Speaker 2: have a vibe to it.
Speaker 5: It was, Yeah, it had a vibe. There was no doubt.
Speaker 5: It was at a vibe. And Eddie Kramer used to
Speaker 5: used to pop in and out, uh, you know, and
Speaker 5: and you know, you walk in there and there was
Speaker 5: that big mural that went down the hallway, psychedelic mural.
Speaker 5: But but the reality was it was on a street
Speaker 5: and we could walk to it.
Speaker 2: So okay, it almost took ten years for you to
Speaker 2: reach the promise of what you were I guess initially
Speaker 2: planning on doing back in the early Atlantic days. But
Speaker 2: as a duo, Like, how are you two getting along
Speaker 2: with this newfound success?
Speaker 5: We've always gotten along really well. We we we really
Speaker 5: leave each other alone. You know. Back in the early days,
Speaker 5: you know, we were together constantly and traveling constantly always,
Speaker 5: you know, everything was shared. But as we got older
Speaker 5: and as we got more successful, you know, we lived
Speaker 5: separate lives with separate families, you know. And but but
Speaker 5: we you know, we met as teenagers. So it's almost
Speaker 5: like a brotherhood. You know, it's almost like it's a
Speaker 5: family thing. You know, we don't have to even talk.
Speaker 5: We can be a part for long periods of time,
Speaker 5: and we get together and it's like time stops. It's
Speaker 5: it's a very unusual thing.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And it's amazing, to be honest with you, that we
Speaker 5: were still able to work together. You know, we we
Speaker 5: do our own thing. We do separate projects. Uh, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm gonna I'm doing a tour next week, actually an
Speaker 5: acoustic tour with a guitar player friend of mine here
Speaker 5: in Nashville, And Darryl's going to do a tour. He's
Speaker 5: doing some a new solo album tour, and then we'll
Speaker 5: come back and play together, you know, probably over the summer.
Speaker 2: So you know, I know that, I for one, am
Speaker 2: very tired of anytime someone sees me alone in public,
Speaker 2: nine times out of ten they're going to ask me
Speaker 2: where's the rest of the guys at.
Speaker 3: Where's the band? I'm almost certain you get asked more
Speaker 3: every day.
Speaker 5: Yeah, where's all?
Speaker 10: You know they think that they think that we just
Speaker 10: you know, we're just well, you know, our company is
Speaker 10: called Two Headed Monster, So that gives you an idea
Speaker 10: of what, you know, what it's all about.
Speaker 5: I remember one time I was sitting in a dressing room,
Speaker 5: and it wasn't long ago, sitting in a dressing room
Speaker 5: and I was by myself in the dressing room, and
Speaker 5: one of these security guys at the venue stuck his
Speaker 5: head in dressing and goes and he looked at me.
Speaker 5: There was nobody else in the room, he said, which
Speaker 5: one of you guys is holding oats? I said, I said,
Speaker 5: I guess, I guess that's me.
Speaker 3: I don't know, all right. So for H two, oh,
Speaker 3: first of all, while on this streak, what is the
Speaker 3: what is the pressure like for you?
Speaker 2: Like going into prived, I said, it's like, damn, we
Speaker 2: got to top you know, voices And with HGO it's like,
Speaker 2: oh man, we had like four top ten singles with
Speaker 2: the Privateized record. Like, are you feeling the pressure at
Speaker 2: the time or is it still like we still have
Speaker 2: to prove ourselves or do you now feel like by
Speaker 2: this point at least like you've arrived.
Speaker 5: I think, well, we definitely felt like we arrived. We
Speaker 5: felt like we were doing the right thing. You know,
Speaker 5: we had to achieve what we wanted to achieve, were
Speaker 5: producing ourselves, had the band that we wanted that we
Speaker 5: could take live and be in the studio, and we
Speaker 5: thought that that's we were there and things were rolling.
Speaker 5: You know, the band was amazing, the vibe was amazing,
Speaker 5: We're writing really great songs. And I don't think that
Speaker 5: there was no exterior pressure. We didn't have pressure from
Speaker 5: the record company. I mean it might have been there.
Speaker 5: We never let it get to us. We just just
Speaker 5: wanted to make a great record and we just went
Speaker 5: in there and did it.
Speaker 2: I've heard rumors of it, but can you tell me
Speaker 2: whether or not. I don't know if it happened that
Speaker 2: we are the World Sessions or whatever. Was it truth
Speaker 2: to the rumor that Michael Jackson actually told you guys
Speaker 2: that Billy Jean was inspired by the DNA of I
Speaker 2: can't go for that.
Speaker 5: That. He didn't say that to me. He may have
Speaker 5: said that to Darryl. He did say. He came backstage
Speaker 5: with his brothers when we were playing in California in
Speaker 5: LA and he said, he said, I can't go for that.
Speaker 5: It's my favorite song to dance too. He goes, I dance,
Speaker 5: he goes, I work out all my dance routines to
Speaker 5: that grouve. So just that and that alone kind of
Speaker 5: tells you that if he liked it that much, he
Speaker 5: must have said to himself, Man, I'm gonna write something
Speaker 5: sounds like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what about so with That's what that said? Man
Speaker 4: Eater and part Time.
Speaker 3: Lover, Oh, what are your thoughts on on that?
Speaker 5: You know, Man, I wrote the chorus of man Eater
Speaker 5: as a reggae song because I had come back from
Speaker 5: Jamaica and wrote I wrote it as I wrote it
Speaker 5: as a reggae song.
Speaker 11: It was like it was like it was like you know,
Speaker 11: and so.
Speaker 4: I wrote, it's like like lovers rock kind of thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I and I and I played it for
Speaker 5: Darryl and he was like, man, he goes, I love this,
Speaker 5: he goes, he goes, I don't know, man, he goes,
Speaker 5: I don't know if reggae groove is right for Hallos.
Speaker 5: And I said, well, what do you got? And he
Speaker 5: went on, gone, gone, gone, okay. And I mean, at
Speaker 5: least that was smart enough to listen to him.
Speaker 3: You know the question I always wanted to know. All right,
Speaker 3: this is more of an arrangement question.
Speaker 2: Sometimes there will there will be some songs that get
Speaker 2: released and in your mind and retrospect in your mind,
Speaker 2: you think that the course happens a lot.
Speaker 3: Great example is.
Speaker 2: Uh uh Fonte, the the rock Master Scott and the
Speaker 2: Dynamic Threes. The roof is on fire like of course
Speaker 2: that powerful, but it only gets said once in the song.
Speaker 3: And that's like.
Speaker 2: That's what I said, Yeah, you gotta gotta you gotta
Speaker 2: wait five minutes.
Speaker 3: Before it even gets to that part.
Speaker 2: And for me, a song like one on one, I
Speaker 2: always swore to God that the whole back and forth
Speaker 2: between you and Darryl a fan.
Speaker 3: I get to night one on what a fan I
Speaker 3: get you? Nah, Like that only happens once.
Speaker 2: Yet in my mind, that's that's a course that just
Speaker 2: goes on and on, which is so tricky.
Speaker 3: Whoh and that's a very intricate Uh.
Speaker 2: That song has a lot of intricate background parts, like
Speaker 2: whose idea was it too? I'm surprised that it was
Speaker 2: a hit because you guys didn't take the easy route
Speaker 2: and just saying the easy part of the course, but
Speaker 2: there were other sub courses in there.
Speaker 5: We really pride ourselves on those background arrangements. And that's
Speaker 5: a Philly thing. I mean, that's really that's coming from
Speaker 5: that doop background vocal thing. And if you listen to
Speaker 5: some of our songs, and I think a lot of
Speaker 5: people don't realize this, but a lot of our songs,
Speaker 5: the hook is actually the background part. Yes, it's it's
Speaker 5: very unusual. People don't realize that, but the hook, like
Speaker 5: We're out of touch, that's just a giant background vocal
Speaker 5: and the lead is bouncing off the backgrounds. We do
Speaker 5: that a lot, and that's a thing, you know.
Speaker 2: You want to know how I know that that's true.
Speaker 2: Maybe five years ago I got the Master two. I
Speaker 2: can't go for that, And just as an experiment, I
Speaker 2: took the vocals and put them over where the background
Speaker 2: should be, and I took the backgrounds and put them
Speaker 2: where the vocals were.
Speaker 3: Yeah me to this, no, yeah, yeah to this day.
Speaker 2: I mean I've been playing it and my DJ sets
Speaker 2: to see if one person notices that Darryl singing over
Speaker 2: the chorus music and the chorus is over it. Not
Speaker 2: one person has noticed it yet. And that's all the
Speaker 2: only version I played.
Speaker 5: That's cool. I didn't realize that's that I'd like. I
Speaker 5: would like to hear that.
Speaker 2: How did you guys get Family Man from Mike Oldfield?
Speaker 5: That was a that was just an accident. We were
Speaker 5: making the record and one of our roadies are keyboard
Speaker 5: tech who was helping us with keyboards. He came in
Speaker 5: one day and he said, hey man. He was a
Speaker 5: big Mikeae Oldfield fan, and he said, I heard this
Speaker 5: new Michae Oldfield record. He goes, and there's a vocal
Speaker 5: on it. Because Michae Oldfield was predominantly instrumental, and he said,
Speaker 5: there's this cool song with this girl singing this vocal
Speaker 5: this vocal tune, and he said, you guys got to
Speaker 5: hear it. And we just played it for fun in
Speaker 5: the studio and we went, wow, we should cut that,
Speaker 5: and we did. We just cut it.
Speaker 2: I also remember you did two versions of that video.
Speaker 2: One version was like extremely long, like it was almost
Speaker 2: like again the early days of MTV where they just
Speaker 2: need a lot of content. I definitely remember, Yes, it
Speaker 2: cut like ten versions of Leave It.
Speaker 3: But there was two versions of.
Speaker 8: I'm just I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing, yes.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, Well, Gotti and Cream.
Speaker 8: Re mixes of Owner of a Lonely Heart too, Like
Speaker 8: there's one hundred mixes.
Speaker 2: Trevor wasn't messing around, Trevor Warren. Yeah, but I remember
Speaker 2: you guys did two versions of an extended version of
Speaker 2: Family Man, which is like eight nine minutes long.
Speaker 5: And yeah, yeah, we were always doing club mixes, you
Speaker 5: know on some of those records.
Speaker 3: Did you have anything to do with that? You and
Speaker 3: Darryl or did somebody else?
Speaker 5: Just well, the first club mix that we had success
Speaker 5: with was for Satis and so with jelly Bean Benitas, right,
Speaker 5: Billy did that one, and then we then the really
Speaker 5: extreme stuff that we did later on on the on
Speaker 5: the Big Bamboom Mountain by Arthur Baker.
Speaker 2: And an important summit meeting of a record you were
Speaker 2: part of USA for Africas we are the world?
Speaker 3: What was what was that experience?
Speaker 5: Like Quincy Jones and Lena Richie and Michael Jackson, they
Speaker 5: were smart because they knew that it was the American
Speaker 5: Music Awards were going on in LA. And then back
Speaker 5: in those days, you know, you only had two things.
Speaker 5: You had the American Music Awards and the Grammys. They
Speaker 5: were really it was not a million different award shows
Speaker 5: like there is today. And so they knew that everybody
Speaker 5: kind of who was anybody in pop music was going
Speaker 5: to be in LA for American Music Awards because you
Speaker 5: pretty much everybody went. So they just said they they
Speaker 5: sent invitations to everybody to select people to come to
Speaker 5: the studio at A and M after the awards, and
Speaker 5: the invitation said no managers, no agents, no hangers on,
Speaker 5: just come, just come. And there was a green room
Speaker 5: out in the lobby for all the people. You know,
Speaker 5: the all the other folks and just the artists were
Speaker 5: allowed in and that was the that was brilliant because
Speaker 5: all the artists left their hair down. You know, there
Speaker 5: was no hangers on and agents and managers trying to
Speaker 5: you know, control anybody, and everybody just got real. Everybody
Speaker 5: got real. And I you know, I remember they had
Speaker 5: little names on on the these little steps where we
Speaker 5: all stood for the chorus, and I had I had
Speaker 5: Ray Charles was right in front of me off my
Speaker 5: left shoulder, and Bob Dylan was right behind me on
Speaker 5: my right shoulder, and I was just looking. I was
Speaker 5: you know, you know, through the years, I think I've
Speaker 5: tried to be more very aware of certain moments when
Speaker 5: when I realized that maybe this is something that you know,
Speaker 5: couldn't might never happen again. And I remember very distinctly
Speaker 5: being very aware of what was happening, where I was
Speaker 5: and what was going on, and I thought to myself,
Speaker 5: this is a very unique thing. And I don't know
Speaker 5: if you can see it or not, but I'll show
Speaker 5: it to you.
Speaker 3: Oh, everyone signed.
Speaker 5: Everybody sign it. I think this is the only copy
Speaker 5: that exists. I mean, and I mean everybody.
Speaker 2: So we're looking at the sheet music and everyone's signature
Speaker 2: from We.
Speaker 3: Are the World.
Speaker 5: That's amazing and for once, for once, I had the
Speaker 5: presence of mind to go around and get.
Speaker 3: Everybody, oh yeah else.
Speaker 5: Even got Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder to sign this thing.
Speaker 3: So that's myself. How long was the process for you?
Speaker 5: It was a couple of hours. But you know what
Speaker 5: we did was we just sang the chorus. We said,
Speaker 5: we all sang the chorus in unison, and we said, okay,
Speaker 5: everybody just throw a harmony part on and you know,
Speaker 5: of course he had a good room for the great singers,
Speaker 5: so everybody just picked apart, sang a third third of
Speaker 5: you know, octaves or whatever it was, and uh, and
Speaker 5: then everybody broke down and then they did all the
Speaker 5: the solo solo stuff.
Speaker 3: So the backgrounds were done. First one went home first year.
Speaker 5: And it didn't it didn't take long, It really didn't.
Speaker 5: There was a couple of little snap There was a
Speaker 5: couple of little issues where you know, you know, you
Speaker 5: put a bunch of a list talent in the same
Speaker 5: room and somebody's gonna think they're gonna start producing, and uh.
Speaker 5: There was a couple of little things where I won't
Speaker 5: mention any names, but Stevie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we we had we had Hughey Lewis on this show.
Speaker 5: Did he tell you the same story?
Speaker 10: Uh?
Speaker 3: No, no, No, I don't know. I know, yeah, what's your story?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 5: Stevie made some suggestions he he thought would be a
Speaker 5: good idea, and it kind of kind of derailed the
Speaker 5: whole thing because they were trying to get a lot done,
Speaker 5: you know. And uh and finally, you know, Quincy Jones
Speaker 5: just came out from behind the console, you know, behind
Speaker 5: the glass, and he just once Quincy came out, it
Speaker 5: was like and I remember, I think I think Ray
Speaker 5: Charles said something like, hey man, I think he said,
Speaker 5: as I recall, he said, it is his line on
Speaker 5: Michael's song. Let's just do it the way they want.
Speaker 5: And that was and that was it. Once once he
Speaker 5: said that, everything kind of.
Speaker 7: Got imagine Stevie versus Ray.
Speaker 3: I just love it.
Speaker 7: I know they were friends, and I know it's all
Speaker 7: in fun sounds hilarious.
Speaker 3: Wait you guys. Were you guys also on the sun
Speaker 3: City record as well? Yeah?
Speaker 5: I was.
Speaker 3: I don't know, was that recording them the same way
Speaker 3: or was.
Speaker 5: It just like no, that was all the individual stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it was a group thing, but it was small groups.
Speaker 5: I think Stephen brought different people to and it was
Speaker 5: all done in New York in a small studio in
Speaker 5: the city.
Speaker 2: You know, you guys are basically the gold standard, like
Speaker 2: for you was it Were there any regrets of that period,
Speaker 2: in that rise of being at the top of your game,
Speaker 2: of having like number one singles, number one albums, Has
Speaker 2: there been something that you haven't achieved or was that
Speaker 2: you could have redone or something.
Speaker 3: I think think that.
Speaker 5: People perhaps to realize that when you have this mega
Speaker 5: success like that in the pop world, the biggest thing
Speaker 5: that you lose is time. You lose time, and you
Speaker 5: lose you lose yourself because there's so much demands on
Speaker 5: your time for obviously to make the music, to promote
Speaker 5: the music, to tour, to play live, to write new songs.
Speaker 5: It just never seemed to end, really and I think
Speaker 5: when we got it right after, you know, we did
Speaker 5: we did three things that were really big. We did
Speaker 5: We Are the World. We did Live Time Live AID
Speaker 5: in Philadelphia at Veteran Stadium, and we headlined that with
Speaker 5: you know, with Jagger and Tina Turner and uh, and
Speaker 5: Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin, and then we did we
Speaker 5: and we had done the Apollo Theater show, right, and
Speaker 5: we also had Eddie Kendrick and David Ruffin. Once we
Speaker 5: had done those three things, I think Darryl and I
Speaker 5: actually looked at each other and said, what more could
Speaker 5: we boss? Had? We had more success than we could
Speaker 5: have ever dreamed of. We had, as you said, number
Speaker 5: one records tour of the world, you know, on the
Speaker 5: top of the pop charts. And I think we I
Speaker 5: think we were smart. I think we realized that there
Speaker 5: was only one way to go from there, and.
Speaker 1: That was down.
Speaker 5: Because I don't think you can sustain that sort of success.
Speaker 5: I think it's very difficult. Very few people can sustain
Speaker 5: that sort of success for a lengthy period of time.
Speaker 5: And I think what we did was we stepped away.
Speaker 5: And maybe it wasn't the smartest thing to do from
Speaker 5: a business point of view. Commercially, of course it wasn't,
Speaker 5: But it was a smart thing to do for psychic life,
Speaker 5: you know, for life.
Speaker 2: How you know how difficult or challenging was it to
Speaker 2: pull off the Kendrick and Ruffin.
Speaker 3: Project, because you know.
Speaker 2: I've read a lot of autobiographies of various Temptation members,
Speaker 2: and you know, they don't look too fondly of that
Speaker 2: that reunion album that came out in nineteen eighty one,
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I would assume that, you know,
Speaker 2: when they're doing this album with you in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: four eighty five, that the sort of Temptations proposed seven
Speaker 2: member reunion thing went a bust and they both want
Speaker 2: their separate ways to do the separate projects.
Speaker 3: But for you, what was it like? You know, I
Speaker 3: know that you.
Speaker 2: Two were big Temptations fans, but at the time, you know,
Speaker 2: was it rose colored glasses like it was exciting or
Speaker 2: maybe I don't know.
Speaker 5: We we were asked to reopen the Apollo after the
Speaker 5: Apollo had been closed for a bit for to be renovated, renovated,
Speaker 5: and it was a big you know, we Darren and
Speaker 5: I felt like it was a big honor. It was
Speaker 5: a you know, it was a charity event. It was
Speaker 5: in New York City, obviously, and it was a big
Speaker 5: honor to be asked, you know, to reopen the Apollo,
Speaker 5: and we want to do something special, and so what
Speaker 5: we wanted to do was we wanted to go back
Speaker 5: to the so some of the music that kind of
Speaker 5: brought me and Darryl together back in the sixties, and
Speaker 5: that was our mutual love for the Temptations and Eddie,
Speaker 5: you know, Eddie was Eddie's was a sweetheart. Eddie was
Speaker 5: playing in holiday inns in Alabama. David was David was
Speaker 5: a He was very challenging, challenging individual, and but we
Speaker 5: managed to corral them together and we told them flat
Speaker 5: out and they said, look, here's what we want to do.
Speaker 5: We want to try to replicate the thing that we
Speaker 5: remember as teenagers when you guys were at your peak.
Speaker 5: We want to wear the suits, we want to do
Speaker 5: the steps, we want to do the whole thing. And
Speaker 5: we're on the stage at the Apollo. We want to
Speaker 5: we want to try to recapture for that moment. And
Speaker 5: it was really kind of in a way, I mean
Speaker 5: not in a way, it was really it was really
Speaker 5: me and Daryl wanting to to have that experience of
Speaker 5: performing with our teenage idols on the stage and kind
Speaker 5: of having this and to be honest with you, it
Speaker 5: was it was one of the most amazing things I've
Speaker 5: ever done, because it was like time had stopped and
Speaker 5: instead of me being in my bedroom trying to do
Speaker 5: the Temptation steps and singing those songs, I was on
Speaker 5: the stage at the Apollo doing it with them, and
Speaker 5: they were so cool about it, and they wanted to
Speaker 5: do it so authentically. If you if you watch the steps,
Speaker 5: they are exactly the same choreography. And it was just
Speaker 5: one of those things. And honest to God, it was
Speaker 5: a psychedelic moment. And by that, I don't mean taking drugs.
Speaker 5: What I mean is is that I felt like I
Speaker 5: was watching myself. I felt like gone out of my
Speaker 5: body and I was watching myself do that. And it
Speaker 5: was really something that I don't think I could ever
Speaker 5: you know, really well, I can't really describe it any
Speaker 5: other bit way in that, but it was just something
Speaker 5: that was just very very And that's when me and
Speaker 5: Daryl decided to step away after that. It was after
Speaker 5: that show, in the reception after the show, we were
Speaker 5: all the people were coming around and everybody was saying,
Speaker 5: you know, how great it was and all this, and
Speaker 5: I remember me and Daryl sitting down together and we said,
Speaker 5: you know what, probably time for us to just stop.
Speaker 4: Wowad for us, it was a full circle.
Speaker 5: We had we had met because of the temptations in
Speaker 5: a sense, and now we were we had done that,
Speaker 5: and it really felt like we had completed this thing
Speaker 5: in our in our life.
Speaker 7: You know, was there something in your mind you wanted
Speaker 7: to do after this circle had completed, because it seems
Speaker 7: like a whole era.
Speaker 5: So now I wanted, I wanted to live. I wanted
Speaker 5: to I want to do all the things that I
Speaker 5: had never done. You have to remember I was on
Speaker 5: the road from nineteen seventy two until nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 5: and I never ever stopped, not one time. It was
Speaker 5: two breaks and that whole time.
Speaker 3: Had you made a list?
Speaker 5: Yeah? My list was was, uh, live in a house.
Speaker 4: Get me, get married, have a kid.
Speaker 5: And that's exactly what I did. I I sold everything
Speaker 5: I owned, I move, I moved to Colorado and I
Speaker 5: met my future wife and we build a house and
Speaker 5: had a kid. And for about ten years I hardly
Speaker 5: did any music. And wow, I lived in the mountains
Speaker 5: and I kind of became a different person. So it
Speaker 5: was just something I needed to do.
Speaker 3: All right.
Speaker 2: One one last question I have. I know that you're
Speaker 2: you once lived next door to Hunter S.
Speaker 3: Thompson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh god, what was that shit like psychedelics.
Speaker 5: Well, that's that's what happened when I when when I
Speaker 5: when I left New York City and I kind of
Speaker 5: started my life over again, moved to Colorado. I was
Speaker 5: with my my girlfriend who later became my wife, and
Speaker 5: we we found a little piece of property. She actually
Speaker 5: found it in Woody Creek, Colorado, which is and we
Speaker 5: we it was it was just a piece of land
Speaker 5: with a little cabin and we were going to build
Speaker 5: a house. And so I remember one day and we
Speaker 5: went out there to look at it and we were
Speaker 5: standing with a real estate agent and on the proper
Speaker 5: and we heard a shotgun blast and then on the
Speaker 5: on the roof of the cabin, this metal roof, we
Speaker 5: heard all the shotgun pellats, you know, like that, and
Speaker 5: we're like, what the hell is that? And the real station, Oh,
Speaker 5: that's your neighbor, Hunter Thompson. He said, don't worry, he's fine.
Speaker 5: You'll you'll get to meet him later. I was like,
Speaker 5: I said, is this going to be a problem, And
Speaker 5: he said he said, no, no, no, it's going to
Speaker 5: be all right. And so we ignored that. And his
Speaker 5: if you if you know anything about Hunter, you know
Speaker 5: he had that red car LANDNK that he drove in
Speaker 5: the field loathing that was parked that was parked in
Speaker 5: our cabin. He didn't own the property, but that property
Speaker 5: had been abandoned for years, so he just stuck his
Speaker 5: car in the little cabin. So we were going to
Speaker 5: take that cabin and convert it into an apartment where
Speaker 5: we could live while we built our house. So I
Speaker 5: kept going up and knocking on his door, because he
Speaker 5: literally was right across the road. I would knock on
Speaker 5: his door, hopefully, you know, to introduce myself and say,
Speaker 5: hey man, we got to get your car out of
Speaker 5: the cabin. And he never answered the door ever, because
Speaker 5: he would sleep all day and stay up all night,
Speaker 5: and I would always go during the day as so
Speaker 5: finally I just the keys were in the car.
Speaker 3: I put a.
Speaker 5: Jumper cables on it, I jumped it, I started it.
Speaker 5: I drove it up onto his lawn. I parked it
Speaker 5: directly in front of his kitchen door, and I left
Speaker 5: it there. And I knew him for twenty five years.
Speaker 5: He never said a word to me about it.
Speaker 3: He did it.
Speaker 5: He probably did it in the middle of the night, yes,
Speaker 5: where it just appeared there. Wow, you We used to
Speaker 5: go up to his house and we used to watch
Speaker 5: Monday night football with him and the sheriff.
Speaker 3: And he did something normal like watch football.
Speaker 5: Oh that he was a major sports junkie. He was
Speaker 5: a huge sports fan. That's all his whole thing. And
Speaker 5: then then we went to the funeral too, Johnny dep
Speaker 5: did you know where where they shot his ashes out
Speaker 5: of the cannon and all that we were there for that.
Speaker 5: It was wow. I didn't know they did it at
Speaker 5: the funeral.
Speaker 3: Wow, wow, wow.
Speaker 8: Just who you want for a neighbor when you're trying
Speaker 8: to get away from it.
Speaker 5: All right, he was actually you know what though, he
Speaker 5: was actually a really good a good guy. He he
Speaker 5: liked being Hunter Thompson. You know, he liked he liked
Speaker 5: the image. You know, he liked the hat and the
Speaker 5: cigarette holder and the motorcycle with a glass of Burt
Speaker 5: you know gin. But down you know, he was a
Speaker 5: Southern gentleman. He was from Kentucky and if he liked you,
Speaker 5: and it broke all that down. He was he was
Speaker 5: really cool and he was really smart. And no, it
Speaker 5: was a real experience to have him as a neighbor
Speaker 5: for over twenty years.
Speaker 2: Well, we thank you for coming on the show and
Speaker 2: we have a team Supreme Fan Digolo, Boss, Bill Sugar,
Speaker 2: Steve like you, I'm quest Love.
Speaker 3: This would be great, John O, thank you very much.
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