Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are
Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they
Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zephy Beast, start changing it
Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 3: Jamie, let's play a game.
Speaker 1: What the game is? I just woke up. I don't
Speaker 1: know where.
Speaker 3: You have to play the game and play by all
Speaker 3: the rules. And the game that you're playing is releasing
Speaker 3: a Matreon episode about Saw, which will be the inciting
Speaker 3: incident that we have to cover all the rest of
Speaker 3: the Saw movies on the Bechdel Cast. And if we
Speaker 3: don't do that within six months, jicks I will kill us.
Speaker 1: Usually, I feel like if there's one thing Jigsaw loves
Speaker 1: is to chop off a leg. It's his favorite. It's
Speaker 1: one of you, it's one of his favorites. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jigsaw, Jamie whoa.
Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Sawante.
Speaker 2: WHOA?
Speaker 1: No, I like it, Sae. Let's let's fucking go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 1: And it's true. Today we're playing a game, the game
Speaker 1: being unlocking a Matreon episode.
Speaker 3: Because the way that the characters and Saw movies have
Speaker 3: to unlock little chains and and shackles and boxes.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, we do this every so often. And
Speaker 1: if you enjoy this episode, it's just Caitlin and I
Speaker 1: were talking about Saw. Obviously. It was recorded last year
Speaker 1: obviously obviously, And if you like the sort of like
Speaker 1: more casual tone of this episode, that's what you can
Speaker 1: expect from our Matreon hot plug incoming. Yes, we have
Speaker 1: a Matreon Patreona slash Bechtel cast where every month Caitlin
Speaker 1: and I based on a theme that always definitely makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense. We talk about two movies. So
Speaker 1: if you go over there right now and you enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode, you can go and get over one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty episodes that are not on our main feed.
Speaker 1: And it's only five bucks a month. Come on, a bargain,
Speaker 1: Come on.
Speaker 3: So, yes, this is our Saw episode that we released
Speaker 3: around two years ago. But since two oh my goodness,
Speaker 3: it was your birthday. You did it for your birthday
Speaker 3: month in August. I believe I was right to coming
Speaker 3: up on two years ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so quickly, before we get to the episode, let's
Speaker 1: do a little bit of a housekeeping. This episode is
Speaker 1: a little more informal, So in case you haven't listened
Speaker 1: to the show before, weird place to start, but hey, welcome,
Speaker 1: This is our podcast where we talk about your favorite
Speaker 1: movies using an intersection feminist lens, but this time it's
Speaker 1: like a spiky little lens that could kill you.
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, oh no. The Saw test, where if
Speaker 3: you don't play jigsauce game, he'll chop off your limbs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll do something really terrible to you because he
Speaker 1: is not an ally, which is actually true. I feel
Speaker 1: like I've seen people be like, actually, Jigsaw is an
Speaker 1: ally because he hired a woman, and you're like, that's
Speaker 1: not how that works. Jigsaw is lawless, he's anti everyone. Yes,
Speaker 1: he's anarchy, he's chaos.
Speaker 3: It's true. So Jigsaw plays by the Saw test. We
Speaker 3: play by the Bechdel test, except we don't even really
Speaker 3: do that except for talk about it for three minutes
Speaker 3: every episode, and then the rest of the time is
Speaker 3: us having serious discourse but.
Speaker 1: Also goofing sorriest discourse.
Speaker 3: Whoa, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: What if Jigsaw had an air horn? That would be
Speaker 1: so that would have to be like and then we
Speaker 1: can't make any more movies, if we give Jigsaw, okay, anyways,
Speaker 1: what's the Bechdel test.
Speaker 3: It's a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test
Speaker 3: that first appeared in queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel's comic in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty five, Dikes to Watch out For And it
Speaker 3: was intended as a bit as a goof. And there
Speaker 3: are many versions of the test. The one that we
Speaker 3: use is this, do two characters of a marginalized gender
Speaker 3: have names? Do those characters speak to each other? And
Speaker 3: is there conversation about something other than a man? And
Speaker 3: then another little caveat we give is is it a
Speaker 3: narratively meaningful conversation which we prefer over like throwaway dialogue
Speaker 3: that might pass the Bechdel test?
Speaker 1: And that's where they get you, and that's where they
Speaker 1: get you. And we'll leave it at that. But before
Speaker 1: we cut to the episode, because and I are very
Speaker 1: invested in Saw, Yeah, the franchise spoiler alert, we're talking
Speaker 1: about Saw because we really like it and it's been
Speaker 1: almost two years, so let's just like rapid fire some
Speaker 1: Saw updates. I think the first thing that comes to
Speaker 1: mind is we just saw Saw the musical together that's right.
Speaker 3: I saw the musical on Broadway, and by Broadway, I
Speaker 3: mean a very small theater in Los Angeles, California. Ever
Speaker 3: heard of it?
Speaker 1: Very small space, impossible to pe mid show.
Speaker 3: Yes, And that's why I missed the last like twenty
Speaker 3: minutes of the show because I had to piece about
Speaker 3: I was so close to pissing my pants and so
Speaker 3: I had to like dive over a row of people
Speaker 3: as like the show's climax was climaxing.
Speaker 1: And and it was climaxing because it was a very horny.
Speaker 1: It was a parody musical, so it's like horny and
Speaker 1: queer and like it was great.
Speaker 3: I highly recommend if you live in LA. It goes
Speaker 3: up in New York, and I believe a few other
Speaker 3: cities around the US.
Speaker 1: San Diego, like it's it seems to be making the rounds.
Speaker 1: If it's still making the rounds and it's in your town,
Speaker 1: you gotta go see saw the musical.
Speaker 3: And I need to see it again because again I
Speaker 3: missed the last twenty minutes because I had to go pee,
Speaker 3: and then I didn't feel comfortable coming back in because
Speaker 3: I felt like it would have been disruptive to the show.
Speaker 3: Because it was a rather small theater. So I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I'll just have to guess at what happens. I'm guessing
Speaker 3: someone saw the off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't severely deviate from the narrative, but like,
Speaker 1: don't take my word for it. Ye, Seesaw the musical again,
Speaker 1: Seesaw the Musical. Okay, your turn for a Saw update.
Speaker 3: Okay. I dressed up as jig Saw for Halloween. We
Speaker 3: did you the most recent Halloween that we had brag. Oh,
Speaker 3: and I went to a party that was within bicycling
Speaker 3: distance of my apartment, so I wasn't a tricycle and
Speaker 3: that was my horrible blunder. But I did write a
Speaker 3: bicycle to the party. So I'm like, rolling up as Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: I did not know that. That's so funny. Yeah, I forgot.
Speaker 1: I forgot because didn't we pick you up from that party?
Speaker 1: Or I'm trying to remember.
Speaker 3: It was a different one. Wow, because we just I
Speaker 3: get invited to so many freaking parties.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, my others Saw update is that And you
Speaker 4: can watch it right now in HBO Max, unless by
Speaker 4: the time you listen to this HPO Max has.
Speaker 1: Deleted more stuff. But I was a writer and producer
Speaker 1: on a show called Teenage Ethanasia. It's a great show,
Speaker 1: two great seasons, and in our second season, I pitched
Speaker 1: and successfully executed a character named jug Saw. And I
Speaker 1: think by the name you can sort of guess what
Speaker 1: Jugsaw's whole deal is, girl.
Speaker 3: Jigsaw jug is in like jugs is in, big old hawkers.
Speaker 1: Okay, big old honkers. Yeah, I mean I would say,
Speaker 1: I can't say anything else. I refuse to say anything else.
Speaker 1: Let me just grab the name of the episode in
Speaker 1: case you need to go watch jug Saw. She has
Speaker 1: a whole story. Come on, trust me, we've been doing
Speaker 1: this podcast. You think I'm not gonna write Jugsaw a
Speaker 1: complicated backstory and a problem with her mother, of course
Speaker 1: I am.
Speaker 3: Of course, from now on, all stories are about Jugsaws
Speaker 3: and their moms.
Speaker 1: And their moms. It's drama. Okay. So the name of
Speaker 1: it is Viva la Flappanista, Season two, episode six of
Speaker 1: Teenage Euthanasia. Go check it out. Amazing, and just check
Speaker 1: out the whole show. It's fun. We got canceled.
Speaker 3: That's fine, Sorry about it?
Speaker 1: Whatever the Saw episode? Do you have any other Saw updates?
Speaker 3: I have two?
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, Well, I guess we also didn't talk about
Speaker 1: Saw X.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's one of them. So since this episode
Speaker 3: was released on the Matreon, Saw X aka Saw ten
Speaker 3: came out. We both saw in theaters, not together unfortunately
Speaker 3: saw We saw Saw X.
Speaker 1: Now what did you? I don't remember your review of
Speaker 1: Saw X.
Speaker 3: I thought it was bad, but I still loved every
Speaker 3: second of it. Like it was not a well written movie.
Speaker 3: I think it was one of the weaker installments in
Speaker 3: the French highs. But I did pay money. Well, no,
Speaker 3: I probably didn't pay money. I went to see it
Speaker 3: with my amc A list stubs membership. I know I
Speaker 3: always because we come to this place for Saw for magic.
Speaker 1: You know, these days Nicole's watching She's watching Austin Butler Elvis.
Speaker 1: I saw her watching Lady Gaga Star is born the
Speaker 1: other day. Oh they have even more. They just keep
Speaker 1: switching out her movies. WHOA Okay, I also saw Saw X.
Speaker 1: I also thought it was maybe not so awesome, sauce
Speaker 1: so like, but like a not Saw. Some Saw movie
Speaker 1: is still better than or. I'm gonna enjoy myself more
Speaker 1: than ninety percent of movies because it's just really fun
Speaker 1: to like show up in a movie rubbing your hands together,
Speaker 1: being like, now, what is he gonna get up to?
Speaker 1: And it's always something. He's always gonna get it up
Speaker 1: to something. So I thought it was good conclusion. I
Speaker 1: thought it was an awesome, perfect movie. I love Tobin Bell.
Speaker 1: I love that he's still sawing after all these years.
Speaker 1: He's eighty one. Whoa yeah, so he is like he
Speaker 1: is in it to win it. I hope we have
Speaker 1: a lot more Saw movies with Tobin Bell. Same, okay,
Speaker 1: do you have any more? That's all my songs?
Speaker 3: It's okay, yes, my final one is that. So our
Speaker 3: mutual friend Briant and I often watch movies together and
Speaker 3: we kept being like, should we watch a Saw movie?
Speaker 3: And we would go and see if it was available
Speaker 3: to stream anymore, and most of them are only available
Speaker 3: to rent, and so you pay three ninety nine to
Speaker 3: rent it. We're like, Okay, there's got to be a
Speaker 3: more cost effective way to do this, because I don't
Speaker 3: want to spend three ninety nine on like ten Saw movies.
Speaker 3: So what I did instead is I bought one of
Speaker 3: those like Blu Ray bundles with the first eight Saw
Speaker 3: movies on Blu Ray, and it was.
Speaker 1: Only like it just makes sense.
Speaker 3: It was like twelve dollars, So that's violent. I know
Speaker 3: it's kind of an insult to the Saw franchise, but
Speaker 3: I made the investment of a lifetime and bought this
Speaker 3: eight Saw movie bundle on Blu Ray, and Brian and
Speaker 3: I are working our way through it. You're welcome to
Speaker 3: join us at any time.
Speaker 1: Jamie, please. I think you're out of town. I think
Speaker 1: I was out of town when that started. Where did
Speaker 1: you guys leave off?
Speaker 3: Well, you have so far only watched Saw two together.
Speaker 3: Oh so there's a lot.
Speaker 1: Oh oh so the doors wide open?
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, until Jigsaw slams it says.
Speaker 1: Game over Sam, Sam, Okay, well, yeah, I'm in. I'm
Speaker 1: joining in Saw three a second your home.
Speaker 3: Okay, great, I can't wait. But yeah, those are all
Speaker 3: my Saw updates. And so what we also do generally
Speaker 3: when we release a Matreon episode to the main feed
Speaker 3: is we'll just kind of edit it a bit, because
Speaker 3: we're sometimes matreoning out a little too hard in different
Speaker 3: points of the episodes.
Speaker 1: A lot of sidebars, not like what we've been doing
Speaker 1: for the last ten minutes, which is all very on topic,
Speaker 1: all feminism.
Speaker 3: Well, it's on topic for Saw at least, So yes,
Speaker 3: we'll edit out some chunks here and there. Some of
Speaker 3: it's like references to something that's like a year or
Speaker 3: too old that kind of dates the episode, so I
Speaker 3: kind of I try to get rid of as much
Speaker 3: of that as I can. So I cut out a
Speaker 3: little bit at the beginning where I pretend to be
Speaker 3: Jigsaw and I say that we have two hours to
Speaker 3: finish the episode, or else the episode will be too
Speaker 3: long and the consequences will be dire. So when you
Speaker 3: hear references to that later on, that is me doing
Speaker 3: that hilarious little bit.
Speaker 1: Why don't you just do it now?
Speaker 3: Well, okay, tell us Jamie what it's me Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm also Jigsaw, but but you're in charge.
Speaker 3: And it's also we're playing the game for ourselves. Oh,
Speaker 3: we have to complete this episode within two hours, or
Speaker 3: else the episode will be too long and it might
Speaker 3: be annoying for some listeners.
Speaker 1: Oh no, we've never made an episode too long. It
Speaker 1: will be a new experience. Yeah, and we better get started.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we better. Oh and then right when we cut in,
Speaker 3: is us talking I guess questioning if Saw one is
Speaker 3: actually a good movie or not. So this is where
Speaker 3: we will I know, how dare we even question it?
Speaker 1: That's as close as we get to being edge lords.
Speaker 1: We're like, is I have one even good? I regret it?
Speaker 1: I regret it.
Speaker 3: Yeah it's great, and you'll hear us say many things
Speaker 3: to that effect. But yeah, that's where we cut in.
Speaker 3: So enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1: Saw is Oh no, now I'm getting nervous. I was like,
Speaker 1: I thought the first Saw was like pretty well written, Yes,
Speaker 1: but I refuse to acknowledge any of the plot holes
Speaker 1: in Saw.
Speaker 3: Okay, here are my gripes with the writing of Saw,
Speaker 3: although I think most of my gripes have to do
Speaker 3: with the acting, which is atrocious from most of the
Speaker 3: characters or the actors.
Speaker 1: Who is your least who is your least fing? I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like we we have to make an exception
Speaker 1: there for the legend the icon Tobin Bell as Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: His performance is kind of untouchable, sure, and I can't
Speaker 1: really be hearing anything negative about it, But everyone else
Speaker 1: is doing a horrible job. Who do you think is
Speaker 1: doing the worst job.
Speaker 3: I think the guy who is clearly not an actor
Speaker 3: and who co wrote this screen or wrote.
Speaker 1: The screenplay Lee Wannell, Yes, I think he's doing his
Speaker 1: house we Stanell Leannel. But yeah, he is not very
Speaker 1: He's not a very good actor, is he.
Speaker 3: He's not. But Carrie, you will.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Elle. I listened to the hat. I
Speaker 1: didn't finish it. I'll be full disclosure, but I listened
Speaker 1: to Uh. I watched this movie last week and then
Speaker 1: I watched half of it with the commentary track with
Speaker 1: Lee Wannell and James Wan And it's so cute because
Speaker 1: they're such good friends. But they say Harry el's ellis,
Speaker 1: elsls ols, wait os, but they're Australian, so it could
Speaker 1: be a pronunciation thing. It tripped right off the tongue
Speaker 1: for them. It was very easy for them. They're like,
Speaker 1: carry elwis. The thing about him is he's really British.
Speaker 3: And that's true. And you can tell that he's a
Speaker 3: British person because he's letting his accent slip through on
Speaker 3: almost every word.
Speaker 1: Oh, they're fighting for their lives with the accents. I
Speaker 1: don't know why they I don't know why they had
Speaker 1: to be canonically American, because Lee Wennell is Australian and
Speaker 1: once you know that, you're just like, oh, he's like
Speaker 1: criking out the whole time, like just let them speak
Speaker 1: in their natural accents. And it's so wild because you
Speaker 1: know that, like Lee Wanne literally made that choice for
Speaker 1: them on purpose. Yeah, they were young though, Like it's
Speaker 1: so wild. Like James Wan is a like a middle
Speaker 1: schooler when he directs his he's so like he's like
Speaker 1: twenty six, but that's like wild.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like pretty fresh out of film school, right
Speaker 3: because they because James wan and Lee Wonnell, I feel
Speaker 3: like also there's like.
Speaker 1: Is it wonle Wannel? Is it stanyel Wannel at all?
Speaker 3: Well, I'm trying to do like a benefit thing where
Speaker 3: it's like love that we're kind of marrying the two
Speaker 3: names together as just like Wonnle love that. Flee okay hello,
Speaker 3: oh and Flee freaking loved it too.
Speaker 1: And you know that's gonna that that's gonna be loud
Speaker 1: and that's gonna pick up. Yeah, you know that. Sorry,
Speaker 1: he's stressed out because there's been someone next door just
Speaker 1: absolutely hammering something for about six days.
Speaker 3: Do you think it's someone building a saw room? Do
Speaker 3: you think it's Jigsaw's production designer? That is like one
Speaker 3: of my I'm sure that there's either a very good
Speaker 3: or very horrible sketch about that somewhere, like who's setting
Speaker 3: up Jigsaw's traps?
Speaker 1: You know that they tried that on Mad TV. I
Speaker 1: would I would bet money on it.
Speaker 3: And if not, Jamie, you just wrote a sketch.
Speaker 1: Oh god, it's almost like it was almost too easy.
Speaker 1: But yes, they're so young when they make this movie.
Speaker 1: I just think it's beautiful to set James Wand on
Speaker 1: his journey to you know, being one of my favorite
Speaker 1: directors ever.
Speaker 3: He Oh my gosh, he's the best. What was the
Speaker 3: other movie of his we covered on the show, Aquaman?
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I always forget that that was his movie.
Speaker 1: Me too. I meant, I always forget that he's Aquaman man.
Speaker 1: But he is Aquaman man. But but yeah, he Okay,
Speaker 1: so his directorial resume is pretty wild. I'm just gonna
Speaker 1: rattle some stuff off please Saw Saw three Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: he only directed Saw and Saw three, which not coincidentally
Speaker 1: are ones. Saw two is pretty iconic as well. Saw
Speaker 1: one through three are good, and then so the rest
Speaker 1: are also good.
Speaker 3: I've I'll get into this when we talk about our
Speaker 3: histories with the Saw franchise. But I've seen way more
Speaker 3: Saw movies than you might expect.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited.
Speaker 3: I'll tell the full story.
Speaker 1: Oh I can't wait. But okay, so sorry, Saw Saw three, Insidious,
Speaker 1: The Conjuring, in Citious, Chapter two, Furious Seven, question Mark,
Speaker 1: The Conjuring Too.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Fast and the Furious Seven. He directed one
Speaker 3: of the Fast and the Furious movies.
Speaker 1: I did not know that. Yeah, I knew Aquaman, I
Speaker 1: knew the Conjuring franchises. All him. Malignant one of our
Speaker 1: faves from last year, Maignant. It was the we got
Speaker 1: a comfortableness of twenty twenty one one. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: we should cover that this October. Malignant was kind of
Speaker 1: perfect film critible. I didn't really have any negative thoughts. Well,
Speaker 1: actually I had a lot of negative thought, but like
Speaker 1: in a good way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't have
Speaker 1: a single critical thought. I was like, all I thought.
Speaker 1: All I thought on a loop was he did it again? Anyways?
Speaker 1: But enough about how I was essayam with James Wand
Speaker 1: even though I forgot one of his biggest movies in
Speaker 1: the space of the last minute. What's your history with
Speaker 1: the Saw franchise?
Speaker 3: Okay, I saw Saw Oh, I used to make a joke,
Speaker 3: and this might even be something that if I like
Speaker 3: dug through my Twitter I could find. But it's like
Speaker 3: a little dialogue where someone says, like not a little
Speaker 3: blog like person a sees I've seen Saw too, And
Speaker 3: then I respond by saying, I saw Saw too too.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's good.
Speaker 3: That's a good joke if I do say so myself. Okay,
Speaker 3: So there's no way around it. That joke rules. I
Speaker 3: saw Saw right when it came out. I don't think
Speaker 3: in theaters though, But like is ah, but I don't
Speaker 3: remember it was two thousand and four. What month did
Speaker 3: it come out.
Speaker 1: Let's see, let's see.
Speaker 3: It was October. I think it was like Halloween season.
Speaker 1: Yea makes sense. It's pretty scary. I mean I would
Speaker 1: say it, yeah, pretty scary.
Speaker 3: So I would have just started college. I would have
Speaker 3: been like a month into college, and I feel like
Speaker 3: I was like probably too stressed out to go to
Speaker 3: the movies. So I don't think I saw it in
Speaker 3: the theaters. I think I would have remembered that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't think that. I don't think
Speaker 1: that this movie would have calmed you down.
Speaker 3: No, but I saw it on DVD as soon as
Speaker 3: it came out on DVD, probably a few months later,
Speaker 3: because I remember like all the buzz about it, and
Speaker 3: so I saw it and I remember thinking the twist
Speaker 3: at the very end when Jigsaw gets up off the
Speaker 3: floor the dead body you thought was a dead body
Speaker 3: the whole time he starts to stand up. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 3: my freaking gosh, the biggest whist in cinema history.
Speaker 1: We're not saying, oh my freaking god, it was. It
Speaker 1: is good. It's one of the it's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite twists ever.
Speaker 3: It's still unexpected. It's it's truly Do.
Speaker 1: You think Tobin Bell was in the room the whole time?
Speaker 1: Is he that good? Oh?
Speaker 3: He's like, I'm committing to this. I am in character
Speaker 3: all It's he's like method acting.
Speaker 1: This may have been in nine thousand movies, but his
Speaker 1: most iconic role is Saw. Interestingly, he lives in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: He's like the king of a town in Massachusetts. Whoa
Speaker 1: and then they have to like fly him out. They're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you want Jigsaw. He just lives in whatever Jigsaw mansion
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. One of this is this information comes from
Speaker 1: a very credible source aka my brother's friend.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, okay, I.
Speaker 1: Was talking to my brother cashing up with my brother's friend.
Speaker 1: Side note, my brother's friends are getting hot. Don't love that?
Speaker 3: Oh okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: But but he was like, did you know that Jigsaw
Speaker 1: is local? And I was like, relevant to my interests?
Speaker 1: So continue?
Speaker 3: Okay. So I saw Saw shortly after it was released,
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking it was pretty awesome, especially oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, like the music is Jigsaw's standing up and
Speaker 3: it's like ding d D.
Speaker 5: D D D.
Speaker 3: Iconic.
Speaker 1: John Williams could never in his life John Williams found
Speaker 1: dead in a ditch after hearing it being from Saw. Unbelievable.
Speaker 3: So I took it upon myself to continue to see
Speaker 3: the Saw movies. I'm not sure if I ever saw
Speaker 3: any of them in theaters, but there was a span
Speaker 3: of time where I was, I mean, and it was
Speaker 3: a long time, and longer than maybe anyone else was
Speaker 3: getting Netflix DVDs delivered to their mailbox.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's true. You were getting Netflix DVD's while this
Speaker 1: show was airing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I since stopped, but I was getting them well
Speaker 3: into probably like twenty sixteen. I mean, you know, Blessed
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, maybe even so blessed. I saw Saw two, two,
Speaker 3: and saw three, and saw four and saw five. I
Speaker 3: think I stopped at five.
Speaker 1: I think I stopped at six, but I but then
Speaker 1: I was reading the description for six, and I was like,
Speaker 1: honestly I could have seen this. But also right, my
Speaker 1: recall after three gets a little fuzzy. I had to
Speaker 1: read through some of the things. And then did you
Speaker 1: see Spiral? I did not watch Spiral.
Speaker 3: I did not see Spiral. I wanted to, but it
Speaker 3: came and went in theaters in like a blip, and
Speaker 3: I completely missed it.
Speaker 1: And it was also, I think, still not a great
Speaker 1: I think it came out like right before people were
Speaker 1: actually comfortable going back to movie theaters. Well maybe that's
Speaker 1: I think it was like there was a COVID timing
Speaker 1: where they are just such a streaming kind of thing.
Speaker 1: I didn't watch it. I heard its actually very very good,
Speaker 1: but I read I read a piece about it today
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, oh, I do I have so
Speaker 1: many SAW tabs open right now? My god. I read
Speaker 1: an article on a screen rant that I thought was
Speaker 1: quite good by a writer named Cathol Gunning. Also a
Speaker 1: great name, but I guess that the deal with Spiral,
Speaker 1: my understanding is a Jigsaw copycat killer, and they're trying
Speaker 1: to flip the franchise so that this new copycat killer
Speaker 1: is targeting cops, which is a good modern like I think,
Speaker 1: a better you know take. But then but in doing so,
Speaker 1: and this is a small gripe, I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a bad thing that Spiral is killing cops. And you
Speaker 1: can put me on the record there, but but basically
Speaker 1: it was done with the ethos of like, well, Jigsaw
Speaker 1: never killed I'm like Jigsaw spent whole movies killing cops.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw tortured detective Donnie Wahlberg, corrupt cop.
Speaker 3: Jigsaw slashes the throat of Danny Glover cop.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw famously does not like cops. Jigsaw said a cap
Speaker 1: but he also said all innocent people are bastards also,
Speaker 1: so he's just sort of like, he's like, all cops
Speaker 1: are bastards, but only because they fall under the umbrella
Speaker 1: of people. All people are apab except my wife. Okay,
Speaker 1: so kind of Jigsaw's approach.
Speaker 3: So I saw so many of the saws up to
Speaker 3: five maybe six, because I remember being like Caitlin, what
Speaker 3: are you even doing, but I kept watching them because
Speaker 3: each Saw movie has the most unexpected twist you've ever
Speaker 3: seen in any movie.
Speaker 1: Like they just know wow, they keep doing it. I
Speaker 1: know they keep movie after and like the movies do get.
Speaker 3: Worse and worse.
Speaker 1: Sure, as with any franchise I like, horror franchises are
Speaker 1: commonly associated as often getting much worse and more convoluted,
Speaker 1: But I don't think it gets as bad. If we're
Speaker 1: doing pound for pound next to other horror franchises, it
Speaker 1: could have been much worse.
Speaker 3: I mean the Halloween franchise, Oh my God, the most
Speaker 3: recent two after they tried to reboot it. The most
Speaker 3: recent Halloween movie is one of the worst movies I've
Speaker 3: ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 1: I didn't see the second one. I thought the first
Speaker 1: one was fine and I was like, oh, it's I liked.
Speaker 1: I liked hearing Jamie Lee Curtis say trauma. And other
Speaker 1: than that, I was and I love Danny McBride right,
Speaker 1: I love David Gordon Green, and I love Judy Greer,
Speaker 1: but I didn't like the movie.
Speaker 3: That one was like okay ish to me, but the
Speaker 3: second one one in their reboot series, Pep Peepee pooh pooh.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, disappointing, and there's still one more and no
Speaker 1: one's got to see it.
Speaker 3: But Saw, even though the storytelling, you know, gets a
Speaker 3: bit wonky, you know, the movies decline in quality, the
Speaker 3: quality of the twists stays top notch, a great So
Speaker 3: I felt compelled to keep watching Saw movies because I
Speaker 3: was like, oh my gosh, there's no way they're going
Speaker 3: to top this twist in the movie prior to this one,
Speaker 3: and then they do. It's just like, oh, so I
Speaker 3: am a Although I hadn't seen the first Saw since
Speaker 3: like two thousand and five, and I remembered very little
Speaker 3: about it except for Jigsaw standing up at the very
Speaker 3: end being like, hey, it's me Grabe over and then
Speaker 3: you're like, so that in a very long story, is
Speaker 3: my history with the sawt franchise, Jamie, what about you?
Speaker 1: Oh? I was a late comer to the Saw franchise.
Speaker 1: I was not I mean, as I've said on the
Speaker 1: show before, I was not a horror girl growing up.
Speaker 1: I've become a horror girl as an adult. My franchise.
Speaker 1: So I only had like, I don't know what this
Speaker 1: logic was, but I only had room for one horror
Speaker 1: franchise in my formative years. Sure, and I was a
Speaker 1: Final Destination girl. I didn't have room for Saw. It
Speaker 1: was a hardline final Destination girl. Started seeing them with
Speaker 1: Final Destination three, iconically the Tanning Bed one, Slash, the
Speaker 1: roller Coaster one. It's awesome. And then I proceeded to
Speaker 1: see the rest in theaters and loved those movies. Did
Speaker 1: they hold up not even a little bit, nowhere close
Speaker 1: to Saw, I will say, but there was one my
Speaker 1: first serious relationship in high school, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: So it'd been in two thousand and nine or ten,
Speaker 1: and story time, I've probably told you this story before
Speaker 1: and then sometimes I forgot. I'm like, oh, people are
Speaker 1: listening to this, so I do have to say it again.
Speaker 1: So in high school, I worked at a skating rink.
Speaker 3: Ice skating or roller skating.
Speaker 1: Ice skating, thus the Sambony culture. Well, also, my dad
Speaker 1: is a hockey reporter. Grew up around Zamponi's a lot
Speaker 1: of formative experiences around Zamboni's. But yeah, I worked at
Speaker 1: the snack bar and then on Friday nights I had
Speaker 1: to work in this skate like high schoolers would hand
Speaker 1: do their stinky shoes and then you had to give
Speaker 1: them skates. And it was all my classmates, and it
Speaker 1: was maybe traumatizing and humiliating because people would really delight
Speaker 1: in giving Jamie their stinky shoes while they were going
Speaker 1: on dates with my crushes, and I had to smell
Speaker 1: their shoes nasty. Anyways, I'm over it though. So anyways,
Speaker 1: had a crush on a boy who his name is Steven.
Speaker 1: I've literally made shows about him. So anyways, he came
Speaker 1: to the skating rink one day and we were not
Speaker 1: yet dating, and he was like very sweet, awkward high
Speaker 1: school boy and like tipped me one dollar and I
Speaker 1: was like, wow, oh my god, what I'm bad at
Speaker 1: this job. And then he was like, hey, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like have you seen the Saw movies? And I was
Speaker 1: like no, I haven't seen them, and he was like,
Speaker 1: oh well. I was just thinking, if you ever want
Speaker 1: to come over my house or something like we can
Speaker 1: watch the Saw movies or I don't know, and I
Speaker 1: was like okay, and then whenever later I went to
Speaker 1: his house and thought he spent five Saw movies, five
Speaker 1: whole Saw movies, no pea breaks getting the nerve up
Speaker 1: to kiss me. I was there I got there at like, wait,
Speaker 1: one pm. Yeah, and it was like ten at night.
Speaker 1: And then we finally kissed. But we watched five Saw
Speaker 1: movies in a row. We did take a pee break.
Speaker 1: I was being dramatic, but like, but we wave.
Speaker 3: You marathoned five Saw movies in one day.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then and then and then I got a kiss.
Speaker 3: I mean, perfect day.
Speaker 1: It was kind of an awesome day in the end. Honestly,
Speaker 1: by the end, I was a little by the time
Speaker 1: he put in because he had all of them on DVD.
Speaker 1: It was a weird Ultimately, it was a weird date,
Speaker 1: but it was very sweet that it took someone five
Speaker 1: Saw movies to give you a little kiss.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it takes me five minutes into a Saw
Speaker 3: movie to give someone a kiss these days.
Speaker 1: I mean I would I wouldn't even get to the twist,
Speaker 1: but yeah, in this case. So anyway, I saw all
Speaker 1: five and one day, and then I just kept revisiting
Speaker 1: them over the years. I think I saw six. At
Speaker 1: one point. I definitely fell off the Saw franchise. I
Speaker 1: don't think I'm alone there.
Speaker 3: So wait, how many are there?
Speaker 1: Now? Oh? Boy, let's see, because I think that there's
Speaker 1: through They're like the titles are confusing. Wait, let's see. Okay,
Speaker 1: So we have Saws one through six. Then you have
Speaker 1: Saw three D, which is technically Saw seven, and that
Speaker 1: one I don't think i've seen, but i've heard is
Speaker 1: quite bad. Then there's Jigsaw, which is supposed to be
Speaker 1: the worst one and that's like an origin story question Mark.
Speaker 1: And then there's Spiral, which is a post Jigsaw copycat
Speaker 1: killer and that's the one with Chris Rock.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, I don't know. Jigsaw was on my radar
Speaker 3: as something that existed.
Speaker 1: He is one of the Hollywood reporters stars to watch.
Speaker 3: It was on the you know, like eight Saw movies
Speaker 3: that you can't miss. Saw three D. I had no
Speaker 3: idea was a thing.
Speaker 1: They did the same thing with Final Destination I supposed
Speaker 1: to say Fatal Attraction. What. Yeah, they did the same thing.
Speaker 1: I think that that was just like during the three
Speaker 1: D boom in the early twenty tens, like after Avatar
Speaker 1: came out, they're like, oh, everything successful needs to be
Speaker 1: three D now, and they all kind of sucked, including Avatar.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, So there's Saws one through six, and then
Speaker 3: Saw three D, Jigsaw, Spiral. Yeah, so that is nine
Speaker 3: Saw movies total.
Speaker 1: In the Sauna verse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Sauna verse.
Speaker 1: I think it's I hope they make more. They gotta
Speaker 1: make more. Sometimes you're like, kill the franchise. Enough is enough.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine getting to a plant like I probably
Speaker 1: won't see them, but I would be sad if they
Speaker 1: stopped making them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm now tempted to for Halloween this year do
Speaker 3: a Saw marathon.
Speaker 1: Ah, that would be so fun. Oh oh, we would
Speaker 1: have what a time. We'd have what a time? We
Speaker 1: watch songs and then we would have to kiss after
Speaker 1: the fifth one, just because I don't know how else
Speaker 1: to act after five Saw movie.
Speaker 3: I mean, consistency is important. So yes, I consent, thank you.
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, let's let's do it. I'll have a Snathan yay.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, So our history was it's hard, Like, I
Speaker 1: think we'll try to stick to the first movie. There
Speaker 1: are like certain elements of Jigsaw that I feel like
Speaker 1: you can't not discuss further installment because you find out
Speaker 1: I mean Jigsaw. Look, do I agree with the actions
Speaker 1: he took? No? Did he have some points? I think so,
Speaker 1: I think he had some points. Now did he need
Speaker 1: to lash out like that? No, that's I had this
Speaker 1: whole jokey premise that I was going to try to
Speaker 1: start the episode with by being like Jigsaw's male privilege.
Speaker 1: What where does this guy get off thinking he can
Speaker 1: just set up all these elaborate little games that take
Speaker 1: twenty seven days to set up canonically according to the
Speaker 1: production design department, and then start killing people. That's patriarchy
Speaker 1: and actions.
Speaker 3: But see, my version of that is like, you know
Speaker 3: how like Viola Davis's Instagram feed is just a lot
Speaker 3: of like very like inspirational or like mid, hey are
Speaker 3: you struggling, Like then remember this these five things to
Speaker 3: help you, you know, get through the day, or just like.
Speaker 1: I love very much like Instagram.
Speaker 3: It's great, yeah, and it's just very like healing and
Speaker 3: like I want to help you. And then Jigsaw, his
Speaker 3: whole thing is like he seems to want to help
Speaker 3: people or like show them how to be appreciative, but
Speaker 3: he's doing it in the most violent way possible, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, that's toxic masculinity. You know.
Speaker 1: Literally, he's like he is like I don't see people
Speaker 1: practicing gratitude very much, better kill them, Like it's he ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, it's we hear at the back at Bechdel
Speaker 1: Cast Industries cannot endorse the actions of one John Kramer,
Speaker 1: Like that is not okay. No, and we want to
Speaker 1: go on the record to say that was not okay
Speaker 1: what John Kramer slash Jigsaw did. But did he look
Speaker 1: good doing it? Kind of indisputably yes, did he sound
Speaker 1: good doing it?
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Jigsaw's voice.
Speaker 1: Don't get me started. Do doo dooo do doo dooo
Speaker 1: doo doo dooo. Tobin Bell, who plays Jigsaw. Okay, so
Speaker 1: for a Massachusetts local, as we've learned, I want I
Speaker 1: wanted to confirm. I didn't want I didn't want to
Speaker 1: speak out of turn. It's Weymouth, Weymouth, Massachusetts, Okay, A
Speaker 1: good town, A good town, I think. But he so
Speaker 1: he's like one of the he's like an iconic character
Speaker 1: actor who eventually became best known for being Jigsaw, which
Speaker 1: is incredible. But I'm trying to think of another example
Speaker 1: of this where he like came up with a ton
Speaker 1: of like prestige actors and like he studied like the
Speaker 1: Strasburg method in New York and he's like he's like
Speaker 1: very classically trained. He did Meisner he did all of
Speaker 1: the random acting things that I know zero point one
Speaker 1: percent about, But he was like on Broadway. He came
Speaker 1: up with Ellen Burston and Jessica Tandy. He like came
Speaker 1: up with all these kind of legends, did small character
Speaker 1: parts and then didn't pop off until his sixties when
Speaker 1: he began to play the iconic role of Jigsaw. So
Speaker 1: it was a role he was born to play. He's
Speaker 1: a lifetime member of the Actress I just love that
Speaker 1: Jigsaw is a lifetime actor member of the Actress Studio.
Speaker 3: That's like, yeah, and you know what else, That's the
Speaker 3: type of thing that on her Instagram, Viola Davis would
Speaker 3: be like, Hey, if you're worried that, you just like
Speaker 3: haven't quite made it in your career yet. Tobin Bell
Speaker 3: didn't become Jigsaw until he's.
Speaker 1: Sixty two years old. Don't stop dreaming me. Honestly, I
Speaker 1: was thinking about this because I just had my LA
Speaker 1: anniversary and I was like, Oh, what if me seven
Speaker 1: years ago knew what I would be doing now? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, hmmm, I would kind of be on the fence.
Speaker 1: And that's how that's how I think that might be
Speaker 1: the unintentional reaction of like, well, if you work really
Speaker 1: hard for forty years, one day you can be Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: And I think I would be like I might just
Speaker 1: like have a family.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but good to know anyways. Yeah, James Tobo,
Speaker 3: I mean, but why not both?
Speaker 1: He does have a family. Is his name Tobin Bell? Okay,
Speaker 1: I said James Tobin one am? I I don't know
Speaker 1: that James wand mixed with Tobin Bell is what I was.
Speaker 1: What just happened.
Speaker 3: Also, there's a comedian named Tone Bell, yes, who I
Speaker 3: keep wanting to call instead of Tobin Bell.
Speaker 1: Look anyway, So the point is Jigsaw iconic? Yeah, little
Speaker 1: Jigsaw more iconic.
Speaker 3: The puppet you mean who rides a tricycle.
Speaker 1: The way they try to explain the doll, I think
Speaker 1: it's in like Saw three or something, it's a mess.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, just let the Jigsaw doll be a
Speaker 1: doll it's supposed to. He's like, oh, well, I made
Speaker 1: a doll for my son, but then my wife had
Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Because this franchise has serious issues with like
Speaker 1: needing to punish and abuse people suffering from addiction issues,
Speaker 1: that's a big note I have for the Salt Friend cheese.
Speaker 1: But there he's like, yeah, I made this doll for
Speaker 1: my so on, but then my wife had a miscarriage,
Speaker 1: and so now I'm the doll. You're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's Jigsaw. Jigsaw the thing, Okay. I was gonna propose
Speaker 1: the Jigsaw.
Speaker 5: Test, Oh yeah, please, and it states if Jigsaw a
Speaker 5: fears un screen, he's gonna want to play a little
Speaker 5: game and it's gonna be a little sick and twisted.
Speaker 3: I mean, every Saw movie passes this test.
Speaker 1: Every Saw movie passes this test, and I hope that
Speaker 1: it stays that way. I don't want that's you know,
Speaker 1: some things need subversion that I don't think.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I don't want to see the movie where
Speaker 3: Jigsaw goes to therapy and learns that he should stop
Speaker 3: playing games.
Speaker 1: I do feel like the Saw franchise was ahead of
Speaker 1: its time in many ways, because I feel like right
Speaker 1: now we were talking about it with the Halloween franchise,
Speaker 1: where they're in this process of and I know some
Speaker 1: people like it, so people don't. I'm ambivalent towards it,
Speaker 1: but like, you know, examining post traumatic stress for horror
Speaker 1: movie characters and like introducing the idea of trauma into
Speaker 1: horror that like didn't exist in the original franchise as much,
Speaker 1: but I feel like Saw that's canonical Saw Too. You
Speaker 1: find out the source of Jigsaw's pain, you find out
Speaker 1: that he like, I mean, don't get me started. What
Speaker 1: happened to Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: See I don't remember. Despite having seen many of the Saws,
Speaker 3: I don't remember. The only thing I remember about Saw
Speaker 3: Too is that there's like a bunch of people who
Speaker 3: are trying to escape different scenarios and they're like, we
Speaker 3: were brought together for a reason, and it's like kind
Speaker 3: of them trying to figure it out. But beyond that, it.
Speaker 1: Has to do with corrupt cops. It Saw Too, okay,
Speaker 1: but the approach I need I didn't rewatch Saw Too,
Speaker 1: So I hope I'm not mischaracterizing it because I had
Speaker 1: to reread the I haven't seen Saw Too easily in
Speaker 1: ten years. But the premise of it, it is that
Speaker 1: Jigsaw again. I'm just like, it's convoluted. He's gonna play
Speaker 1: a little game. He's gonna So there's all these people
Speaker 1: trapped in a house that's slowly filling with gas. They
Speaker 1: seem to have nothing in common. Detective Donni Wahlberg's on
Speaker 1: the case and Donnie Wahlberg's son is in the house.
Speaker 1: Turns out Donnie Wahlberg is a corrupt cop. The house
Speaker 1: is full of people that he is knowingly and wrongfully
Speaker 1: framed for crimes who have since been incarcerated. An interesting premise.
Speaker 1: Why does Jigsaw feel comfortable furthering the torture of these
Speaker 1: innocent people by filling a house with gas? Look, his
Speaker 1: methods are convoluted. It's a sick, twisted game. And do
Speaker 1: most of the people who have already wrongly served time
Speaker 1: in prison die in the house? They do? But there
Speaker 1: was an idea there. It was like, what I was saying,
Speaker 1: is the soffranchise attempted to comment on corrupt cops at
Speaker 1: several times? Now was it done successfully? And the case
Speaker 1: was Saw too absolutely not. Didn't really make a lot
Speaker 1: of sense. But they reveal Jigsaw's backstory and Saw two
Speaker 1: and sort of at the end of Saw one because
Speaker 1: they're like, he was a patient of Carrie Elwis and
Speaker 1: he had an inoperable tumor, so that's his whole thing.
Speaker 1: But there's a whole convoluted story that happens with his
Speaker 1: wife and a miscarriage and his marriage falls apart, and
Speaker 1: they all blame it on one recovering addict, who then
Speaker 1: Jigsaw later kills in a very brutal way. But that's
Speaker 1: Jigsaw's way. He finds, like, I didn't remember this one.
Speaker 1: There's a whole saw dedicated to letting a father exact
Speaker 1: revenge on the drunk driver and the judge and the
Speaker 1: lawyer and jury because his son died in a drunk
Speaker 1: driving accident. And it's just like Jigsaw's like, go nuts
Speaker 1: kill the cop killed, the judge killed the driver. Like yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's focused, okay, Jigsaw's whole thing.
Speaker 3: We've been recording for thirty nine minutes.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw also commentary on American healthcare. For some reason, Jigsaw
Speaker 1: has a bad doctor who like gives him a like
Speaker 1: doesn't I forget if it's if they either catch a
Speaker 1: tumor too late or they tell him a tumor is
Speaker 1: inoperable when it is not. Either way, it's like a
Speaker 1: negligent doctor situation that Jigsaws found himself in. So he
Speaker 1: believes he has an inoperable tumor, his marriage has fallen
Speaker 1: to shit, and he attempts to take his own life
Speaker 1: by driving off a cliff. He lives, and then he
Speaker 1: has a realization, which is that he's Jigsaw, and so
Speaker 1: he So I think that for the most part, he
Speaker 1: spends the rest of his life, which I believe ends
Speaker 1: in Saw three. And I remember there's a scene where Amanda,
Speaker 1: who's in the first movie, I believe she has she
Speaker 1: has to do like brain surgery on him or something. Anyways,
Speaker 1: he dies, but he spends the rest of his life
Speaker 1: being like, people are so ungrateful and yeah, I'm God
Speaker 1: and that's male privilege.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyways, that's Jigsaw's deal, not that it really becomes relevant
Speaker 1: during Saw one until the very end. Wait, we should
Speaker 1: recap the movie. Yeah, let's do that, jig Saw JIGSA.
Speaker 3: Okay, So this is the recap for Saw one from
Speaker 3: two thousand and four. We open on a guy waking Also,
Speaker 3: this is one of the longest recaps I've ever written.
Speaker 3: I tried to condense it. I just but like, there's
Speaker 3: just so much and there and most of the movie
Speaker 3: happens in one room, and yet so much happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's genius. Anyway.
Speaker 3: Okay, So we open on a guy waking up in
Speaker 3: a bathtub full of water, in a dark room. He
Speaker 3: doesn't know where he is or what's going on. He's
Speaker 3: very freaked out. Yeah, he hears a voice, the lights
Speaker 3: come on. It's Carrie ill when McGregor, I.
Speaker 1: Love that you. I forgot that. You also can't say it.
Speaker 3: I yes, I can say you and McGregor, I cannot
Speaker 3: say Carrie Coloss.
Speaker 1: I had a physical response to hearing you say that
Speaker 1: man's name correctly because I just know I can't do it.
Speaker 1: It's just you wining'. It just happened again. Like my
Speaker 1: stomach turns. I had just have like a physical response,
Speaker 1: even like looking at his name makes me just nervous.
Speaker 3: Okay, So so Scaryl els els elbows ls ls. I'm
Speaker 3: not sure. Okay. So there are two men in a room.
Speaker 3: It's a disgusting, dilapidated bathroom. Both of the men are
Speaker 3: chained to the wall or to something pipes by their
Speaker 3: one of their feet. They also see a dead body
Speaker 3: lying in a pool of blood in the middle of
Speaker 3: the floor.
Speaker 1: We don't think about this. We don't think about this
Speaker 1: for hours.
Speaker 3: We know it's there, but yes we don't. It's in
Speaker 3: our periphery, but not in our main line of sight.
Speaker 3: For most of the movie.
Speaker 1: Oh, Henry couldn't come up with this twist. It's the
Speaker 1: greatest twist it is.
Speaker 3: I don't disagree.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: In one hand, the dead man is holding a gun
Speaker 3: and he seems to have shot himself in the head,
Speaker 3: hence the large pool of blood.
Speaker 1: He appears to have lost Jigsaw's game exactly.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: In the other hand, he is holding a tape player. Now,
Speaker 3: Carrie Illas.
Speaker 1: I think we should always refer to him as his
Speaker 1: as his full name, and I don't want to remember
Speaker 1: what I was, like, what is his character's name, because
Speaker 1: I just keep thinking carry el Wez Well, I'm going in, Adam.
Speaker 1: I do think of the other one as Adam did
Speaker 1: you as you were watching this, where you're just like
Speaker 1: this is is this the is Nathan Fields or Jigsaw?
Speaker 1: It was a passing thought I had, it was I
Speaker 1: could just I was like, fast forward twenty years in
Speaker 1: Nathan Fielder's career. Is he Jigsaw? And let's not rule it.
Speaker 3: Saw movies are just long episodes of Nathan for you?
Speaker 3: Is that perhaps.
Speaker 1: Rehearsal Season nine has stunning parallel. This is a clickbait
Speaker 1: piece for the future. This is the rehearsal Season nine
Speaker 1: has stunning parallels to Saw three. In this essay, I
Speaker 1: will ugh, I feel like Nathan Fielder. He doesn't have
Speaker 1: Jigsaw energy, but no Jigsaw methods. It could get anyways.
Speaker 3: Okay, so Carrie you Wills is like, I'm doctor Lawrence Gordon,
Speaker 3: I'm a surgeon, and the other guy is like, I'm
Speaker 3: Adam and he is played by Lee Wannel Wannell.
Speaker 1: Le Wannell Sure, I'm just I'm going Wannel.
Speaker 3: To me wrote the screenplay and co created the story
Speaker 3: with James Wan Anyway, Lawrence and Adam introduce themselves, yes,
Speaker 3: and they try to figure out why they might be there,
Speaker 3: who their captor is, and what they want from Lawrence
Speaker 3: and Adam. They then discover envelopes that were placed in
Speaker 3: their pockets. Adam's envelope has a tape, Lawrence's has a tape,
Speaker 3: a bullet, and a key. They try to un their
Speaker 3: chains with the key, but it doesn't work, so then
Speaker 3: they get the tape player in the dead guy's hand.
Speaker 3: Adam plays his tape first, and it's a creepy voice
Speaker 3: who we will learn belongs to Jigsaw. I like how
Speaker 3: every time I refer to the voice, you start humming
Speaker 3: the theme song as if it's the voice, which.
Speaker 1: Which it famously is. Not that I I want a Jigsa.
Speaker 1: I'm unfortunately on eBay as we speak. I'm paying attention,
Speaker 1: but I'm also shopping for a Jigsaw doll there.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, of course. Well, hey, it's your birthday coming up.
Speaker 3: Maybe hold off on buying your soul. I almost I've
Speaker 3: bought you a Jigsaw doll yet.
Speaker 1: Please bring it to my birthday party at medieval times.
Speaker 1: Bring a Jigsa do to Medieval Times. I feel like
Speaker 1: it would be a hit. I almost bought adult earlier
Speaker 1: this year when I was working, when I was in
Speaker 1: the trenches on my my with my female Jigsaw character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I almost bought something off of Etsy called Baby Jigsaw,
Speaker 1: but then I decided too scary didn't buy it.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I think it's time to design some
Speaker 3: new merch similar to the queer icon baby Grinch.
Speaker 1: Baby Jigsaw's so funny. I feel like in the same
Speaker 1: way you're like, baby Grew is not gonna work, but
Speaker 1: it works better than Adult Grew. Baby Jigsaw, I don't know,
Speaker 1: could work better than it would? You know it would.
Speaker 1: It would kind of fuck with Cannon, but give me
Speaker 1: a chance, James wand let me write the baby jigsaws.
Speaker 1: I guess that's kind of chucky adjacent, but I'm okay
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, hmm, all right, sorry to what's happening.
Speaker 3: So the creepy voice on the tape player is saying
Speaker 3: to Adam, basically, you're a pathetically loser and you've done
Speaker 3: nothing with your life and maybe you'll die today. Now,
Speaker 3: Lawrence's tape is the harsh, really harsh.
Speaker 1: That's classic Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's it's tough but fair.
Speaker 1: He's a fair he's a he's a vengeful god, but
Speaker 1: but you know he's a fair god. Okay.
Speaker 3: So Lawrence's tape is the voice saying, you have to
Speaker 3: kill Adam, and you have until six o'clock to do it,
Speaker 3: and if you don't do it, Alison and Diana will die.
Speaker 1: So we are already in we're damseling the whole family.
Speaker 1: There is a version of that later on, but for
Speaker 1: the majority, we've we've doubled damseled the Elwhiz ladies.
Speaker 3: Correct, Yes, So it says that, and then Jigsaw is like,
Speaker 3: by the way X marks the spot for treasure, Let
Speaker 3: the game be gin.
Speaker 1: What is he talking about? Whoa? And then I love
Speaker 1: this guy?
Speaker 3: And then in a whisper, he says, follow your heart,
Speaker 3: and then they notice a heart.
Speaker 1: My mom says that.
Speaker 3: They notice a heart drawn on the toilet next to Adam,
Speaker 3: and inside the tank are two handsaws which they used
Speaker 3: to try to saw through their chains, but the chains
Speaker 3: are way too thick and strong. And then Lawrence realizes
Speaker 3: their captor doesn't want them to cut through the chains,
Speaker 3: he wants them to cut through their feet.
Speaker 1: Awesome. What was that horrible James Franco movie where he
Speaker 1: had to do the same thing and it was like,
Speaker 1: nice try, Oh that was based on a true story.
Speaker 1: I think someone really had to do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is definitely a true story. Correct.
Speaker 1: If I had to cut my own limb off m hm,
Speaker 1: I would take comfort in the fact that.
Speaker 3: It's what Jigsaw would have wanted.
Speaker 1: Jigsaw vibes. I'm channeling Jigsaw right now, But it would
Speaker 1: not it would not be good. Yes, all right, now
Speaker 1: that I've made that insight, will comment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, all due respect to the real life person who
Speaker 3: had to cut off their arm.
Speaker 1: In Yeah, I know, I'm mostly saying I hate James Franco.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, he James Franco should cut
Speaker 3: off every appendage on his body. Got his ass, Yeah, okay,
Speaker 3: he should cut off too, exactly.
Speaker 1: All right, So.
Speaker 3: Lawrence starts to realize, he starts to you know, kind
Speaker 3: of suspect who might be behind this. We flash back
Speaker 3: to various crime scenes where a few detectives, including Detective
Speaker 3: Tap played by Danny Glover and Detective Sing played by
Speaker 3: Ken Lang, they find the victims of the Jigsaw Killer.
Speaker 3: And this killer's whole thing is that he wants to
Speaker 3: punish his victims for something they did, some vice they
Speaker 3: have or something, and he will.
Speaker 1: Bigsaw loves to punish people struggling with addiction. It's one
Speaker 1: of my least favorite things about Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's got some work to do. Yeah, So what
Speaker 3: Jigsaw will do is devise an elaborate and horrific escape
Speaker 3: room like scenario.
Speaker 1: They forgot iconic and iconic.
Speaker 3: He basically builds little escape rooms and he puts his
Speaker 3: victims in them, and they are usually unable to escape
Speaker 3: and they end up doing something to kill themselves in
Speaker 3: the process because they have to climb through razor wire
Speaker 3: or they accidentally light themselves on fire stuff like that.
Speaker 1: I feel like he kind of I wonder how inspired
Speaker 1: that was by like Charles Manson kind of stuff of, like, well,
Speaker 1: I didn't do the how can you prosecute me for
Speaker 1: being a killer? I didn't do it myself? When it's
Speaker 1: like no Jigsaw, no, no Jigsaw, you are a killer?
Speaker 1: Do you remember at some point? Well, I guess you weren't.
Speaker 1: I was, embarrassingly back in the day a big Gilmore
Speaker 1: Girls fan, and I think it's Saw four where Luke
Speaker 1: from Gilmore Girls enters the Saw universe and you're just like, what, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he they really rough him up? They you thought you
Speaker 1: thought they roughed up his heart on Gilmore Girls. Well,
Speaker 1: all I'll say is, if you were team Christopher on
Speaker 1: Gilmore Girls, you were loving Saw four or five and
Speaker 1: maybe six because they were they were really handing Luke's
Speaker 1: ass back to him. He was like an associate of
Speaker 1: Detective Donnie Wahlberg these movies. Describing these movies does make
Speaker 1: you sound like really disconnected from reality, but they put
Speaker 1: like he was the guy that I also have a
Speaker 1: list of like best Saw kills, and it was kind
Speaker 1: of refreshing my memory a little bit. He was this guy,
Speaker 1: the guy that they put the cue the cube on
Speaker 1: his head? Do you remember cube head?
Speaker 3: Was that from Saw two?
Speaker 1: No, I think it's from like four.
Speaker 3: Oh then, But they all really blend together.
Speaker 5: For me.
Speaker 1: It's it's funny because you can see his like bad
Speaker 1: hair plugs even in this like grainy shot. I also
Speaker 1: feel like embraced Balding Luke. Right.
Speaker 3: Here's the thought that I just had, which is that
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of what they do on
Speaker 3: Jackass is not unlike what Jigsaw does to his victims,
Speaker 3: because well I didn't see the Jackass movie, but I
Speaker 3: just remember, like I saw the trailer a million times,
Speaker 3: and there's like a scenario where they like poor honey
Speaker 3: on a guy, strap him to a chair and then
Speaker 3: put a grizzly bear in the room with him. Or
Speaker 3: there's a part where like the puts a box around
Speaker 3: someone's head and then they put a tarantula in a
Speaker 3: tube getting toward it. So I'm just like, this is
Speaker 3: Jigsaw stuff.
Speaker 1: The new Jackass movie was I thought pretty fun, and
Speaker 1: also it now the parallels are are kind of blowing
Speaker 1: my mind because I later had sex with a guy
Speaker 1: as an adult in Boston, who made me watch two
Speaker 1: Jackass movies before he would kiss me on the map.
Speaker 1: Whoa do you remember and then bleep that out.
Speaker 3: I don't remember this person though.
Speaker 1: Oh well, he uh did improv and he didn't have
Speaker 1: a bed frame and I watched two Jackass movies with him.
Speaker 1: He had he had also like not, I mean what,
Speaker 1: we were all broke, but there's different ways to be,
Speaker 1: you know whatever. He was a real. He was a
Speaker 1: real I think classic maybe w Yeah, because his he'd
Speaker 1: in lieu of a TV stand, he had a stack
Speaker 1: of JFK conspiracy books. Anyways, absolutely was in love with
Speaker 1: him for some reason. Nice. Oh. The last thing I
Speaker 1: was gonna say was I feel like, on one side
Speaker 1: of Saw adjacent you have Jackass, which predated Saw, and
Speaker 1: I wonder if you would imagine that the writers at
Speaker 1: some point would have to go to the Jackass well
Speaker 1: for inspiration. And then on the other side, I think
Speaker 1: you have kind of the because I mean, correctly probably
Speaker 1: Saw was criticized in its time for being torture porn.
Speaker 1: Now this is this is a good point, but I
Speaker 1: think that the success of this movie, because this movie
Speaker 1: made its budget back one hundred times. Yeah, So fucking wild.
Speaker 1: But it influenced a lot of other horror franchises that
Speaker 1: I think like leaned into the torture porn with no
Speaker 1: attempted commentary. And I'm thinking of the Saw franchise.
Speaker 3: Yeah, same, Yeah, I know it. I was reading The
Speaker 3: Wan and Wannell, So what I'm gonna call them?
Speaker 1: The boys, the best Friends, the W's.
Speaker 3: They drew inspiration from seven, which is one of my
Speaker 3: favorite thrillers.
Speaker 1: Is that What's in the Box? Yeah? What was it?
Speaker 1: What was in the box?
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna spoil it.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's really funny. There's like a ton of
Speaker 1: listeners that were.
Speaker 3: Like, no, okay. So we learn about Jigsaw's m O. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we get another flashback of doctor Lawrence talking to med students,
Speaker 3: maybe about a patient who has terminal cancer and yeah,
Speaker 3: like an inoperable tumor.
Speaker 1: Put a pin in that. Yes, it turns out he's
Speaker 1: the problem. He too busy cheating on his wife to
Speaker 1: give Jigsaw a correct diagnosis.
Speaker 3: And then we also meet very briefly, an orderly named
Speaker 3: Zepp good name, who comes in and he's like that
Speaker 3: patient you're talking about. Actually his name is John, and
Speaker 3: he's very interesting and when you're watching the movie, you
Speaker 3: don't think much of it as you're watching it, but then.
Speaker 1: When watching it, you're like, yeah, I would say John
Speaker 1: is a little interesting. I guess I would say that
Speaker 1: because he's Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So then detectives tap and sing question Lawrence because
Speaker 3: he's a suspect in the Jigsaw case because his pen
Speaker 3: light was found at the scene of one of the
Speaker 3: crimes at one of the escape rooms. But Lawrence has
Speaker 3: an alibi that checks out, and it's implied that he
Speaker 3: is having an affair.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but he's deeply ashamed of the affair. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's a whole thing for him.
Speaker 3: Lawrence is then asked to listen into the testimony of
Speaker 3: one of Jigsaw's only victim to ever escape, a woman
Speaker 3: named Amanda, who.
Speaker 1: Turns out to be his associate.
Speaker 3: Uh what, I don't remember that. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: Amanda's in a bunch of them because she ends up
Speaker 1: because you know how, she's like, Jigsaw helped me, and
Speaker 1: then she like kind of becomes his sidekick for several
Speaker 1: I think up until his death.
Speaker 3: Okay, I do kind of remember that, and.
Speaker 1: Then I don't know, I don't remember. Assuming she dies
Speaker 1: at some point Buck because she's in Saw movies.
Speaker 3: Right, Everybody dies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, every whether you're in a Saw
Speaker 1: movie or not. Guess what, you're gonna die. Someday you're
Speaker 1: gonna die, just hopefully not in a Oh I was
Speaker 1: thinking of this one. I don't remember what Saw movie
Speaker 1: it was. Do you remember the pile of syringes, the
Speaker 1: syringe like kind of yeah, someone had to crawl through
Speaker 1: the syringe Like, ooh, baby, that was not that was
Speaker 1: that was unfortunate. Yeah, sure thing.
Speaker 3: This is also when we see the little Jigsaw puppet
Speaker 3: guy who comes pedaling into the room on a tricycle
Speaker 3: and we're.
Speaker 1: Like, we're like, yeah, we're standing, we're cheering. Yeah.
Speaker 3: We cut back to the present with Lawrence and Adam
Speaker 3: in the room. They figure out that there's a camera
Speaker 3: in the room and that they're being watched, presumably by Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Adam finds a polaroid of Lawrence's family who have been
Speaker 3: like kidnapped and tied up, and there's an X written
Speaker 3: on the back of it, but Adam doesn't show this
Speaker 3: to Lawrence right away. Then we get another flashback with
Speaker 3: Lawrence and his daughter. She's talking about a scary man
Speaker 3: that's in her room. Lawrence comforts her and puts her
Speaker 3: to bed, And there's I.
Speaker 1: The only one that felt that. I felt that I
Speaker 1: was I didn't look this up, but Carrie el Wes
Speaker 1: is parenting I found to be patronizing and creepy. He's like,
Speaker 1: what do you mean I would never abandon you and
Speaker 1: your mom? And I was like, Okay, this girl's she's
Speaker 1: too old to be spoken to like that.
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if you could like chalk that up
Speaker 3: to just like his poorly written character or Carrie Elle,
Speaker 3: was this really bad acting.
Speaker 1: Or genuinely, I mean his character and this is giving
Speaker 1: him too much crep but like his character is full
Speaker 1: of shit, So maybe he's like, I should sound like
Speaker 1: I'm kind of lying because it sounds like he kind
Speaker 1: of maybe could bail on his family, like he doesn't
Speaker 1: care about them as much as he should. Although I'll
Speaker 1: say my least favorite actor in the movie in like
Speaker 1: this scene specifically, but there's a few scenes where the
Speaker 1: woman what is because I don't want to spend the
Speaker 1: whole time saying his wife what is his wife's name? Alice?
Speaker 3: Allison?
Speaker 1: Alison. Yeah, So the first scene, Alison is in. I
Speaker 1: don't know what was going on there, but she that
Speaker 1: acting was what was going on there. She was like,
Speaker 1: she was like Carrie el was, you can't this is bullshit.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that you are You're you're messing around
Speaker 1: on me. Like it was just like total dead fish's
Speaker 1: energy that she was bringing to the role. Her perform
Speaker 1: it gets kind of good once she gets a gun,
Speaker 1: she kind of kind of wakes up. I agree, I
Speaker 1: thought she was good in those scenes.
Speaker 3: But earlier, Yeah, there's a scene where she's like, don't
Speaker 3: stand there and try to convince me that you're happy.
Speaker 3: Scream at me and tell me you hate me. At
Speaker 3: least then there would be some passion and like that.
Speaker 1: All delivered at the same like that was her delivery also,
Speaker 1: at least then there would be some passion. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm breaking up with this lady. This is
Speaker 1: not helping there. Also, how did they get Danny Glover
Speaker 1: to be in this movie? And how dare they kill
Speaker 1: him so early? And they're how his character is also
Speaker 1: like bizarre, weird, and at some point they're like, this
Speaker 1: character's kind of like Jigsaw. You don't want to hand
Speaker 1: it to Jigsaw. But Jigsaw is like, this guy's a weirdo,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, no, I kind of agree. He
Speaker 1: is acting a bit weird.
Speaker 3: He yeah, it's very cartoonish. Yeah, okay. So we're in
Speaker 3: this flashback where we see Lawrence interacting with his family.
Speaker 3: We see him and his wife Alison have an argument.
Speaker 3: Their marriage seems to be very tense. It seems like
Speaker 3: she suspects him of cheating and storms out, and she's right,
Speaker 3: he storms out. Then a scary man who is hiding
Speaker 3: in the little girl's closet abducts Lawrence's wife and daughter,
Speaker 3: torments them a bit, and then we see that it's
Speaker 3: Zep that orderly from the hospital, So we are thinking, okay,
Speaker 3: Zepp is Jigsaw, I guess. Then we flash back to
Speaker 3: Detective Tap studying the video that Jigsaw made and showed
Speaker 3: to Amanda, the woman who had escaped, and Tap discovers
Speaker 3: a clue that leads him and Detective Sing to what
Speaker 3: appears to be Jigsaw's secret layer in an abandoned mannequin factory.
Speaker 3: So that was my I was again iconic iconic, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, he found that a mannequin and then
Speaker 3: made it into the little Jigsaw puppet. That was sort
Speaker 3: of what I was thinking must have happened.
Speaker 1: Which is the easiest explanation, But I don't think that's
Speaker 1: ultimately the one they go with. I think that they're
Speaker 1: just like, no, it had to do with his they made.
Speaker 1: They connected it to like Jigsaw trauma, like he could
Speaker 1: just find a mannequin. It seems like they were all around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but also the Jigsaw doll, what would that have been
Speaker 1: for at any point a haunted house, Like that's the
Speaker 1: only thing I could think.
Speaker 3: Of, right, because also Jigsaw has this this mask of
Speaker 3: like a pig's face that he puts on to abduct,
Speaker 3: right people, And then there's also the puppet. And then
Speaker 3: Jigsaw also just sometimes wears like a hooded trench coat
Speaker 3: kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3: He's got a lot of different personas, I guess, is
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got all the fifth You've got all of looks.
Speaker 1: The fashion My Cursed YouTube video the fashion evolution of Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: There another great sketch. I really love Cursed YouTube. And
Speaker 1: like there's those videos on like I think it's like
Speaker 1: the Vogue channel where they bring in huge celebrities when
Speaker 1: it would be interesting and more interesting if they brought
Speaker 1: in Jigsaw and they're like whatever, Like, Nicole Kidman breaks
Speaker 1: down ten iconic looks from across her career and it's fine.
Speaker 1: But if you brought in Jigsaw, Jigsaw breaks and ten
Speaker 1: iconic looks from his career as a murderer.
Speaker 3: Hang on a second. If we're talking about Nicole Kidman's
Speaker 3: iconic looks, obviously the most iconic one is the one
Speaker 3: that she wears in the AMC theaters.
Speaker 1: Oh you know it commercial, the pinstripe suit with a
Speaker 1: little bit of glitter. And did you see that she
Speaker 1: got picked up for an additional year for that. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what does that even mean? Is that they're gonna be
Speaker 1: an you're shooting another one? I don't know. They just
Speaker 1: need to like license her likeness so they can show
Speaker 1: it forever. I kind of would be like sad if
Speaker 1: there was a new one, I'd be excited, but I
Speaker 1: would miss the old one.
Speaker 3: What if there was a whole franchise AMC one, AMC two,
Speaker 3: AMC three up until AMC six and then AMC three D.
Speaker 1: And then they'll be like, Okay, we had to ease
Speaker 1: off this franchise. This is getting to be a bit much.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I look, Saw is so fun. Okay,
Speaker 1: so wait, where do we leave off in.
Speaker 3: The story of Saw, Jamie, you've been recording for seventy
Speaker 3: two minutes.
Speaker 1: No, oh no, the clack is too Did I show
Speaker 1: you my picture with Jigsaw? I posted it earlier this year.
Speaker 1: Oh here, you keep talking, I'll send you my Jigsaw picture.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you so much. Okay, you're welcome. So they
Speaker 3: go to Jigsaw's secret layer. Yeah, there is a man there,
Speaker 3: another one of Jigsaw's victims. He's about to be killed.
Speaker 3: Jigsaw shows up. There's a big where the detectives save
Speaker 3: the victim they're chasing. After Jigsaw, Sing is killed in
Speaker 3: a trap. Jigsaw slits taps throat and ultimately escapes. So
Speaker 3: then we cut back to the present where Tap has survived,
Speaker 3: which is wild because his throat was cut so deep.
Speaker 1: I always kind of forget that because it defies logic
Speaker 1: by so much. Like I was. I mean, don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong, I was happy to see that Danny Glover
Speaker 1: was still in the movie, but it really is against
Speaker 1: all logic that he's still in the movie.
Speaker 3: That injury would almost certainly kill. I'm not a doctor,
Speaker 3: but I really I'm no doctor. Lawrence Gordon played by
Speaker 3: Carrie il Whizz.
Speaker 1: Well good because then you would misdiagnose Jigsaw and then
Speaker 1: you and then you'd be in for a real ride.
Speaker 1: I oh god, Jigsaw, he's so COMPLI he's so complicated.
Speaker 3: Okay, So Tap survives. He now has a big scar
Speaker 3: on his neck and he is now obsessed with this case.
Speaker 3: It has completely consumed him. And this is where the
Speaker 3: character gets very cartoonish and weird, and just some weird
Speaker 3: choices are made there. Okay, so we cut to the
Speaker 3: room again. Lawrence is like, Okay, we need to figure
Speaker 3: out this whole X marks the spot thing, which they
Speaker 3: find by turning off the lights and they see an
Speaker 3: X on the wall and glow in the dark paint.
Speaker 3: Lawrence busts open the wall and finds a box in
Speaker 3: which is a cell phone, a couple of cigarettes, and
Speaker 3: a lighter. Adam is desperate to smoke the cigarette because
Speaker 3: he's stressed, because he's so stressed, but there's also this
Speaker 3: ominous note from Jigsaw for Lawrence about the cigarette and
Speaker 3: how Lawrence could maybe poison Adams with the cigarette and
Speaker 3: the poison that's in the blood and blah blah blah.
Speaker 3: So Lawrence first he tries to make a call. He
Speaker 3: tries to like call nine one one, but turns out
Speaker 3: this phone it's only for incoming calls. So then Lawrence
Speaker 3: hatches a plan to make Jigsaw think that he's poisoning
Speaker 3: the cigarette with the blood from the dead guy. Lawrence
Speaker 3: has Adam play along. He smokes the cigarette, he pretends
Speaker 3: to die, but.
Speaker 1: It's horribly faking job. Yeah, it's like such a bad job.
Speaker 1: I think that he's supposed to be bad at it
Speaker 1: in the movie and I was like, that's a good
Speaker 1: bake death. That was a good bake death. Yeah, he
Speaker 1: really phoned it in.
Speaker 3: You would have thought, though that because Lawrence is a doctor,
Speaker 3: and you would think he would know how long it
Speaker 3: would take for like a poison to take effect.
Speaker 1: And you would he be a good doctor. He's a
Speaker 1: canonically doctor. And meanwhile he and also if anyone's gonna
Speaker 1: know a bad actor, it's Tobin Bell. He studied Meisner.
Speaker 3: As did the character Jackson.
Speaker 1: Bo I wish, wouldn't that be great? I we don't
Speaker 1: have time there yet. Jigsaw is not is not falling
Speaker 1: for it not having it, Yeah.
Speaker 3: He doesn't, and he punishes Adam by electrocuting him via
Speaker 3: the chain, which is also apparently has an electrical current
Speaker 3: going through it. Who knows. So then we get the
Speaker 3: reveal that Adam has been photographing Lawrence and he knows
Speaker 3: who Lawrence is, even though he pretended not to. Then
Speaker 3: the cell phone rings it's Lawrence's daughter and wife, and
Speaker 3: Alison confirms this that Adam knows who Lawrence is, and
Speaker 3: it turns out that Adam had been taking pictures of
Speaker 3: Lawrence's indiscretions the past few nights.
Speaker 1: For Danny Glover question Mark.
Speaker 3: And so I don't know if that's supposed to be
Speaker 3: another red herring where it's like maybe tap, maybe it's Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: I guess I never even thought it. Maybe that is.
Speaker 1: I don't even know. At that point, You're just like,
Speaker 1: I'm just I kind of forget that we're supposed to
Speaker 1: be wondering who Jigsaw is. I'm like, I almost don't care.
Speaker 1: I just I just am like waiting for Karrie el
Speaker 1: West to have his ass handed to him. That was
Speaker 1: another interesting like I do think the swings that the
Speaker 1: Saw franchise takes it trying to say something but never
Speaker 1: quite saying anything is interesting where like, you know, Jigsaw
Speaker 1: is so lawless that it's like he doesn't really have
Speaker 1: a code of ethics other than like practice X games
Speaker 1: gratitude at all times. But like, but I do think
Speaker 1: it's you know, he he Jigsaw does not like cops,
Speaker 1: probably partially because he's wanted. But on that front, Jigsaw
Speaker 1: and I are are a united front. But he does
Speaker 1: not like Danny Glover for being I don't even know
Speaker 1: all cops are corrupt. In this specific case, he's just
Speaker 1: like acting really weird. He's too into it, and you're like,
Speaker 1: why are you like spending possibly your own money. But
Speaker 1: then also like kind of taking on like surveillance and
Speaker 1: like Adam deserves to die because he colluded with the cops.
Speaker 1: But then also you do get from Adam the fact
Speaker 1: that he's like, well, I've been put in this position
Speaker 1: because of a class issue. I don't have any fucking money.
Speaker 1: What am I supposed to do? And then with Carrie Els,
Speaker 1: you have the idea of like shame and like is
Speaker 1: it right to surveil someone against their will even if
Speaker 1: they are doing something fucked up? No, it's always wrong.
Speaker 1: But Carrie el is also not a great guy. Like
Speaker 1: just everyone in the Saw franchise is complex and bad.
Speaker 1: I just think it's good, like it's good, it's simply good.
Speaker 1: They're but they're like they're not. There's no I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess there's It's not that there's no value judgments.
Speaker 1: It's that there's only value judgments.
Speaker 3: And they're mostly coming from Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: And Jigsaw Jigsaw kind of above criticism in Jigsaw's opinion.
Speaker 1: Who's never having to play a little game Jigsaw until
Speaker 1: the until I think Saw three.
Speaker 3: Anyway, I cannot wait to rewatch all of these movies. Okay,
Speaker 3: so we've learned the detective tap Is is no longer
Speaker 3: a cop, first of all, and he's paying Adam to
Speaker 3: surveil Lawrence for reasons.
Speaker 1: For reasons.
Speaker 3: I think tap still thinks that Lawrence is Jigsaw. I
Speaker 3: think so, yes, I think he thinks that the whole time.
Speaker 1: And I mean that is I guess true to shitty
Speaker 1: cop logic of just and that is explored and later
Speaker 1: so wait, this is blowing my eye. That's explored and
Speaker 1: later Saw movies where like Danny Glover has in his
Speaker 1: mind who he thinks did the crime, and he's exhausting
Speaker 1: every possible resource to arrest who he thinks did the
Speaker 1: crime so he can close the case, which happens all
Speaker 1: the time. And then Saw two is all about how
Speaker 1: detective Donnie Wahlberg does the same thing, and it's like
Speaker 1: put people in prison and ruined lives and then unfortunately
Speaker 1: Jigsaw fills the house with gas and they all die.
Speaker 1: So that again, that part was confusing. But Jigsaw does
Speaker 1: not like lazy cops. He does not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, okay, where are we were almost done with
Speaker 3: the recap? Okay, So the clock strikes six, which is
Speaker 3: when Lawrence was supposed to kill Adam.
Speaker 1: By Jigsaw has got an early bedtime.
Speaker 3: He's like, I've got a dinner, He's got to watch
Speaker 3: Two and a half.
Speaker 1: Men is on at eight and I'm not missing it.
Speaker 1: So we gotta wrap, we gotta be done. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So Zepp calls the cell phone and has Alison tell
Speaker 3: Lawrence that he failed since he didn't kill Adam in time.
Speaker 3: But Alison has untied herself and fights back against Zepp
Speaker 3: and there's a struggle. Detective Tap comes in, who had
Speaker 3: been monitoring the whole situation, so he goes over to
Speaker 3: see what's going on. There's a big shootout and Alison
Speaker 3: and Diana have a chance to escape, but Lawrence is
Speaker 3: listening on the phone. He hears all the gunshots, all
Speaker 3: the screaming, and he assumes the worst. He thinks that
Speaker 3: his family is being murdered. Sure, he doesn't know.
Speaker 1: It's almost like he forgets so that there's a little
Speaker 1: game going on and that's on him.
Speaker 3: He does seem to forget. Yeah, So, thinking that his
Speaker 3: family is perishing, he takes the saw and saws his
Speaker 3: foot off so that he can escape.
Speaker 1: No way around that. He then he does so.
Speaker 3: Takes the bullet, crawls over to the dead body, loads
Speaker 3: the gun and shoots Adam, thinking that that will be
Speaker 3: a good idea.
Speaker 1: I'm like, really not. Sometimes I'm just like what was
Speaker 1: he going for there? And Adam seems to sort of,
Speaker 1: i mean understandably, kind of feels the same way. He's
Speaker 1: like no, He's like, what are you doing? Don't And
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, wait a second, what is happening right now?
Speaker 1: Are you doing? Could you staw excuse me? Could you
Speaker 1: stop stop? Oh jig saw? Okay wait okay.
Speaker 3: So meanwhile, Tap is chasing Zepp who we still think
Speaker 3: is Jigsaw. Yeah, he catches up to Zepp. There's a
Speaker 3: scuffle and Tap is shot and killed. So then Zepp
Speaker 3: comes into the room to kill Lawrence because he was
Speaker 3: too late. He didn't follow the rules. He didn't kill
Speaker 3: Adam by six o'clock. But oh wait, Adam is still
Speaker 3: alive and he attacks and kills Zepp. Yes, so then
Speaker 3: Lawrence crawls away to find help because he's bleeding to
Speaker 3: death and Adam has been shot and he's like, I
Speaker 3: need to go find help.
Speaker 1: Terry Elwis is the last girl in this movie, which
Speaker 1: is interesting.
Speaker 3: Well, no, I feel like it's Adam, I guess.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that is true. Yeah, but also I'm thinking
Speaker 1: that because Cary el Was, I believe is later revealed
Speaker 1: to still be work, I think he goes to work
Speaker 1: for Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: What that's a hold on?
Speaker 1: No, wait, I might be I might be mis remembering
Speaker 1: that there's some there's a cast member that you think
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly come back but does.
Speaker 3: And those are the twists of the Saw franchise and
Speaker 3: that you love to see.
Speaker 1: And these are the Saw moments we love the most. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: he doesn't, he doesn't die. Yeah, he I think later
Speaker 1: goes to I think that I don't know if he
Speaker 1: does it willingly. I don't know if he like I forget,
Speaker 1: if he like joins the like Jigsaw Ethos, or if
Speaker 1: Jigsaw is simply punishing him for having told him that
Speaker 1: his tumor was inoperable when it wasn't, which was you know,
Speaker 1: he was right to be mad.
Speaker 3: He was right to be mad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if Carrie l Was had been a less
Speaker 1: shitty doctor, Jigsaw wouldn't even be a thing.
Speaker 3: Is that the catalyst that gets everything going for Jigsaw?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's when Jigsaw is so he attempts to take
Speaker 1: his own life after learning he has an inoperable tumor. Ok,
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually inoperable, right, and then it's after he
Speaker 1: survives that accident that he becomes Jigsaw. So no, Carrie
Speaker 1: el was Is being a shitty doctor kind of sets
Speaker 1: off the chain of events that leads to Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: But we don't we don't learn that until a later
Speaker 3: saw a movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not that's I don't think that they thought
Speaker 1: there was going to be morisaws, but they made up
Speaker 1: for it by making some of the best movies ever.
Speaker 3: Okay, so Lawrence has crawled away. He's bleeding to death,
Speaker 3: although apparently doesn't die. Then Adam searches Zep's body for
Speaker 3: a key to try to unlock his chains, but what
Speaker 3: he finds is another tape player. He hits play and
Speaker 3: it's Jigsaw's voice, a message to Zepp, Yeah, giving him
Speaker 3: a game to play woo. So Jigsaw had poisoned Zepp
Speaker 3: and said I have the antidote and you have to
Speaker 3: kill Alison and Diana in order to get the antidote.
Speaker 3: So basically this is the reveal that Zepp wasn't Jigsaw
Speaker 3: after all?
Speaker 1: But who is? And then can't then get ready for
Speaker 1: a mighty.
Speaker 3: The dead man who has been lying in the pool
Speaker 3: of blood in the middle of the room throughout the
Speaker 3: entire movie stands up. He's Jigsaw, Yeah, but who is that?
Speaker 3: He's John, the patient in Lawrence's hospital who has terminal cancer.
Speaker 3: And he gets up and he's like, Adam, you fucking loser.
Speaker 1: What this says carry Ela was forgetting he's doing.
Speaker 3: So Jigsaw is all like, Adam, you suck and you
Speaker 3: are gonna die, and then he says game over and
Speaker 3: then he slams the door, leaving Adam to perish.
Speaker 1: A top one hundred movie lines game over over slam.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, yeah, my blood pressure is spiking. Okay,
Speaker 1: So I just looked at Lawrence Gordon because I was like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't come up for a long time.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: So Lawrence Gordon in the Saw neverse, Yeah, still canonically alive.
Speaker 1: So what Lawrence Gordon? This is from Scholarly Journal Wikipedia.
Speaker 1: Lawrence Gordon is the man who diagnosed John Kramer's terminal
Speaker 1: cancer and was initially a suspect in the Jigsaw murder case.
Speaker 1: Of course, John targets Lawrence for being cold and on
Speaker 1: carrying to others and for cheating on his wife Alison.
Speaker 1: Lawrence is placed in a trap blah blah blah. His
Speaker 1: fate is unknown until Saw three D, when it is
Speaker 1: revealed that Lawrence passed out after using a hot steam
Speaker 1: pipe to cauterize his ankle stump. John found him unconscious
Speaker 1: shortly after and congratulated him for surviving. He then helped
Speaker 1: Lawrence recover and gave him a prosthetic foot. John recruited
Speaker 1: Lawrence afterwards and used his medical skills to prepare other traps.
Speaker 3: And this we don't learn until Saw seven.
Speaker 1: Until Saw seven. What, Yeah, because I was I was
Speaker 1: scanning Wikipedia earlier, and I'm like, oh, I guess he lives,
Speaker 1: but he like they there's also like flashbacks to the
Speaker 1: first Saw movie in almost every Saw movie, right, which
Speaker 1: gets confusing. So after even though Jigsaw's in every movie,
Speaker 1: Jigsaw dies in the third movie, Yeah, but you see flashbacks.
Speaker 1: So Tobin Bell is still getting those checks, but he's
Speaker 1: canonically dead. Carrie el Was could be brought back at
Speaker 1: any time. Really, I think that that is such a
Speaker 1: wild but yeah, so then he's like brought onto the
Speaker 1: production design team for Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Basically, yeah, who's on Jigsaw's team? We don't Okay, we
Speaker 3: have to talk about the movie.
Speaker 1: Okay, there's actually we've we have like say what you
Speaker 1: will listeners, We have had some interesting discussions. So I
Speaker 1: think that, like truly, again, I don't think that the
Speaker 1: Saw franchise until apparently Spiral, which I now want to watch,
Speaker 1: was never like trying to explicitly tackle one social issue
Speaker 1: because Jigsaw is it sounds like such like an understatement.
Speaker 1: It's say, morally ambiguous, Jigsaw. It's hard to kind of
Speaker 1: know what is moral code is and you can quote
Speaker 1: me on that, but I do think it's like interesting
Speaker 1: that in a movie from two thousand and four that
Speaker 1: there are these attempts to I think, subvert classic horror
Speaker 1: tropes where it feels like it's playing on our expectations
Speaker 1: of you know, in horror movies. I feel like we
Speaker 1: are often it's often assumed that we are going to
Speaker 1: side with the police detectives, assume that they are good
Speaker 1: at their jobs, that they are morally upright, all this
Speaker 1: stuff that is like inherent to Copagan, which I kind
Speaker 1: of was like, I wonder how I forget how on
Speaker 1: Danny Glover's side we're supposed to be. It's pretty ambiguous,
Speaker 1: like it is pointed at like, I don't think that
Speaker 1: we're supposed to hate him. I don't think we're supposed
Speaker 1: to be rooting for his demise.
Speaker 3: I think we're supposed to be on his side, even.
Speaker 1: He's also like really, I was sort of struggling with
Speaker 1: it this time. I could believe in two thousand and
Speaker 1: four year we're supposed to but I think I can
Speaker 1: be read in a lot of different I think.
Speaker 3: The intention is that sorry, I mean defending a son.
Speaker 3: I think the intention of the filmmakers is for Danny
Speaker 3: Glover's character to be even after he gets like booted
Speaker 3: off the force and he's doing his weird like ongoing
Speaker 3: investigation where he's mostly.
Speaker 1: Just like hires like TMZ to like spy on Carrie
Speaker 1: Elwa's for.
Speaker 3: Right, And he also seems to know that because he's
Speaker 3: like surveilling ZEP and it seems like he because he's like,
Speaker 3: what's this guy doing in I don't know that all
Speaker 3: got confusing, but sensing how I think the filmmakers intended
Speaker 3: for the audience to perceive the various characters. I think
Speaker 3: that we are supposed to be rooting for Detective tap
Speaker 3: slash Danny Glover, not as like the protagonist, but.
Speaker 1: Which does make sense because casting Danny Glover right, I
Speaker 1: feel like, also, yeah, it does kind of tell you that,
Speaker 1: like you're not gonna put Danny Glover in a movie
Speaker 1: and then be like we hate him because he's so
Speaker 1: canonically loved. Right, Okay, then I guess I'll I totally
Speaker 1: see what you're saying. But I do think that in retrospect,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of different ways to look at it. Sure,
Speaker 1: and as the series goes on, there are more explicit
Speaker 1: criticisms of police brutality and like corruption propaganda, yeah, like
Speaker 1: and also there are tropes at play in this movie
Speaker 1: that are subverting nothing. So so there's a pretty intense damseling.
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that you could argue everyone in
Speaker 1: Saw is a damsel to an extent, because that's kind
Speaker 1: of a Jigsaw's whole thing. But it does seem like
Speaker 1: Carrie el was his family, his wife and his daughter
Speaker 1: are damseled in the more traditional sense right there, kept
Speaker 1: captive in their own home, and they don't appear to
Speaker 1: have skills to get out of the situation.
Speaker 3: Which like the I mean, why would they kind of thing,
Speaker 3: But that's true for me.
Speaker 1: They didn't go to Jigsaw boot camp like me, I
Speaker 1: dare you put a bear trap on my head? Not
Speaker 1: a problem, Not a problem. I'll be at dinner on time.
Speaker 3: There should be sort of like kind of like a
Speaker 3: self defense class, but it's like a Jigsaw defense class.
Speaker 3: Like if you get trapped in a Jigsaw trap, this
Speaker 3: is how you get out of it, and that should
Speaker 3: be a class.
Speaker 1: This is another Mad TV sketch from two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven that we should have written. It's just not fair.
Speaker 3: Okay, So my I see what you're saying, and I think,
Speaker 3: what this is, This is the big thing for me
Speaker 3: in this movie that I think otherwise holds up pretty well.
Speaker 3: It's that the female characters, and particularly his wife and
Speaker 3: his daughter, are mostly there to provide stakes for one
Speaker 3: of the male protagonists. They get captured, they get held hostage.
Speaker 3: I would say, at least his wife, Allison, fights back
Speaker 3: against Zepp. She gets herself untied.
Speaker 1: And in a way that's like realistic and didn't seem
Speaker 1: like magic, you know.
Speaker 3: Right right, Like she manages it because it kind of
Speaker 3: like happens gradually and it all feels like attracts. So
Speaker 3: she gets herself untied, kind of tricks him a little bit,
Speaker 3: you know, waits for the opportune moment, springs a little
Speaker 3: trap on him, grabs the gun from Zep, holds him
Speaker 3: at gunpoint, fights with him because he kind of fights back,
Speaker 3: and grabs the gun again. She then grabs a pair
Speaker 3: of scissors and stabs him in the leg. He while
Speaker 3: he's kind of pretty awesome incapacitated and then also distracted.
Speaker 1: Is a household object kill It is like it's not
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 3: It's not one of those like traditionally, like seminin ones
Speaker 3: that we see a lot where it's like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: a woman is would be in the kitchen cooking with
Speaker 3: a frying pant.
Speaker 1: Frying pant kind so it's scissors because women be crafting.
Speaker 1: That's my that's my that's my disingenuous.
Speaker 3: Read honestly, if I if wanted.
Speaker 1: To be scraped, therefore.
Speaker 3: Exactly so. So she stabs some scissors and then he's like,
Speaker 3: you know, injured. And then also I think this is
Speaker 3: when Danny Glover comes in, so so Zepp is distracted,
Speaker 3: and this gives Alison a chance for her to grab
Speaker 3: Diana and run away. So she manages to like fight
Speaker 3: back and escape on her own. Again, Danny Glover comes
Speaker 3: in right around then, but he's not he doesn't save them,
Speaker 3: She saves herself and her daughter. Yes, So I felt
Speaker 3: like that was kind of out of the ordinary for
Speaker 3: what we would generally see.
Speaker 1: Partial credit. Give partial credit on that, because I do
Speaker 1: agree that they are they're like Damsel for the majority
Speaker 1: of the movie. They're not characterized outside of giving Carrie
Speaker 1: Elwa's steaks.
Speaker 3: There is kind of an attempt made at that, especially
Speaker 3: with the relationship between Lawrence and Alison. But it feels
Speaker 3: so just like Half Baked and Tropy.
Speaker 1: It's mostly like off screen too, it's mostly just like
Speaker 1: what you hear an argument they're having while Diana's in bed,
Speaker 1: and like, yeah, you know, an attempt, sure, but not amazing,
Speaker 1: not amazing. It's not amazing, controversially not amazing. Did you
Speaker 1: know you want to know something about Lee Wannell? Tell
Speaker 1: me he wrote and directed The Invisible Man. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: he's still at it to these days, to this damn day,
Speaker 1: to these days, to these days, to these day. Thank
Speaker 1: you for I was like, maybe I didn't say that there,
Speaker 1: but I did. I love that Lee Wannel and James
Speaker 1: wand they are friends till the very end. Because Lee
Speaker 1: Wannell's eventual, he writes, He writes the first three Saws honestly,
Speaker 1: wan and Wanall or Wanell, depending on your mood. They
Speaker 1: really they really set a strong foundation for the Saw franchise.
Speaker 1: The first three Saws, the original Saw trilogy is incredible.
Speaker 1: It's the full story of Jigsaw. Sorry women, yes, no,
Speaker 1: it's it's there was an attempt made, and I guess
Speaker 1: the best that you can say for it is it
Speaker 1: was good for two thousand and four.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess, but maybe I think some tropes were subverted,
Speaker 3: some were very much leaned into as far as like
Speaker 3: the characterization of women in a horror movie. Yeah, so
Speaker 3: I found that to be the most kind of glaring
Speaker 3: issue with this movie. Other than that, like I kind
Speaker 3: of the other trope that stood out to me, I mean,
Speaker 3: I think that this movie is still a majority white cast.
Speaker 1: There is some diversity in the movie. However, it did
Speaker 1: sort of like this is a trope I think we've
Speaker 1: discussed on the show at some point, but the frequency
Speaker 1: that people of color and like black actors specifically are
Speaker 1: cast as cops, Yeah, as a way of kind of
Speaker 1: tacitly endorsing the police industrial complex, which obviously has an
Speaker 1: adverse effect on the black community in a massive, massive way.
Speaker 1: And so you see a lot of characters who are
Speaker 1: cops who were played by people of color in not
Speaker 1: to pull a page from Jane's Want book, but in
Speaker 1: a bit of an insidious way.
Speaker 3: You might also say that it's kind of malignant.
Speaker 1: Yes, and it's conjuring some doubt for me, But that
Speaker 1: is I mean, that is a t that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say that this was done intentionally to Like,
Speaker 1: I don't think they were trying to do that. I
Speaker 1: just think it is like a common trope that is
Speaker 1: often kind of overlooked, and they die. They both die,
Speaker 1: Like the two main characters who are people of color
Speaker 1: are cops who die, so right, we don't love that.
Speaker 3: I have a feeling that James wand his only intention,
Speaker 3: i'd imagine was to just have some inclusive casting as
Speaker 3: a person of color himself.
Speaker 1: And also have Danny Glover in your movie by any
Speaker 1: means necessary, like obviously, and also I will say in
Speaker 1: because I'll defend James Wan until I absolutely die. Like
Speaker 1: Lee Wannel Wannell and James Wan are Australian, They very
Speaker 1: well and young. They may not have been familiar with
Speaker 1: the dark history of the American policing system outside of
Speaker 1: just like movies, many Americans were not aware who were
Speaker 1: not directly affected by it, you know, sure, So I
Speaker 1: don't think this was done intentionally. I just wanted to
Speaker 1: point it out because it is. It's like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to knock inclusive casting, right, but all are you know?
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess in the context of the police
Speaker 1: and industrial complext Danny Glover is supposed to be a hero.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. It's a complicated issue that
Speaker 1: this movie is like, not a particularly bad perpetrator of
Speaker 1: it's just whatever, very complicated discussion. Sure, but I did
Speaker 1: want to point out that our two main characters who
Speaker 1: are people of color are cast as cops who die.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I did that did ping for me too,
Speaker 3: But then I thought about everyone else who dies or lives. Well,
Speaker 3: although I mean as far as the people who live,
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 1: It apparently Lawrence lives. Jigsaw, I mean Adam.
Speaker 3: As far as we can tell in this movie. Just
Speaker 3: isolating this movie, Adam, I think we assume will die
Speaker 3: because he doesn't escape the escape room.
Speaker 1: It's kind of it was kind of giving some x
Speaker 1: mac in a pre x macina. Right. Yeah, he's fucked
Speaker 1: in a similar way to Dominic Aeson.
Speaker 3: Uh huh. It really seems like Lawrence is going to
Speaker 3: die because he is so close to bleeding out. Wait
Speaker 3: till twenty ten comes around. Turns out he cauterized the
Speaker 3: wound and passed out. Kind of the only people who
Speaker 3: survive are Alison, Alison and Diana and Jigsaw and Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: So we do have whatever I not to Again, this
Speaker 1: is like, I don't think intentional in the story. I
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like any of these parts were written for
Speaker 1: anyone of any particular race, right, But it's just yeah,
Speaker 1: I just always feels like worth noting it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's worth pondering for sure.
Speaker 1: Oh. Also, the other character who we haven't talked about,
Speaker 1: Carla Song, who is the student that Carrie els is
Speaker 1: cheating with. Right, so that is we know nothing about
Speaker 1: this car I mean it is basically all of the
Speaker 1: women in this movie except for Amanda, who we should
Speaker 1: talk about, are there to flesh out Carrie el Wes's
Speaker 1: failures as a man. Sure, and Carla Song in particular
Speaker 1: is sort of there just to be like the student
Speaker 1: that he's having sex with. She has a couple of lines.
Speaker 1: He's mostly mean to her. It is framed as bad.
Speaker 1: That is why Jigsaw, like Jigsaw, is very pro Carla Song,
Speaker 1: you think, because guess what, this isn't the last saw
Speaker 1: thing she appears in per Wikipedia, this had this. She
Speaker 1: shows up I think in a video game. So here's
Speaker 1: what happens. Oh WHOA Carlos is a medical student at
Speaker 1: Saint Eusta's hospital and doctor Lawrence Gordon's mistress. She plays
Speaker 1: a larger role in the video game Saw Too Flesh
Speaker 1: and Blood, where she is targeted by Jigsaw. Okay, so
Speaker 1: Jigsaw is actually not team Carla Song.
Speaker 3: Let's find out why damn?
Speaker 1: Where she is targeted by Jigsaw for stealing vital pharmaceuticals
Speaker 1: and selling them on the street for profit. She is
Speaker 1: found by Michael Tap. So this is like, is this
Speaker 1: a prequel? She's found by Michael Tap with her arms
Speaker 1: secured to the ceiling of an elevator shaft and her
Speaker 1: legs secured to the roof of an elevator. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Michael is tasked with completing a test in order to
Speaker 1: release her safely. If he fails, the elevator will lower
Speaker 1: and tear Carla in half. It is revealed that she
Speaker 1: is a part of a criminal conspiracy. Carla.
Speaker 3: Oh wait. Stanny Glover's character's name is David Tape.
Speaker 1: So who is Michael?
Speaker 3: Maybe Michael is.
Speaker 1: His brother's brother. Tap is a very specific Okay, wait, Michael,
Speaker 1: Who the hell is Michael Tap? This is so awesome.
Speaker 1: He No, Michael Tap is Detective David Taps a strange son.
Speaker 1: There is the Saw universe. Don't underestimate it. You think
Speaker 1: Carla Song was a throwaway character, Well I did too.
Speaker 1: Guess what. She gets ripped in half by an elevator.
Speaker 1: She was not forgotten by Jigsaw, and.
Speaker 3: That's why the Twists and Saw are the best in
Speaker 3: the business.
Speaker 1: She shows up in a video game five years later.
Speaker 1: Are you joking? The most brilliant cinematic universe ever created.
Speaker 1: Last female character that also Amanda, survives. I do think
Speaker 1: we have. We have a lot of mostly white survivors. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they are mostly women, which is good. And they
Speaker 1: do all I think eventually die because it's so you
Speaker 1: just give it a couple of years. They their days
Speaker 1: are numbered. Diana, I actually don't know what happens to her.
Speaker 1: There's there. Maybe there should be a reboot. Maybe that's
Speaker 1: maybe that's what I do. Maybe that's what I'm working on. Oh, okay,
Speaker 1: is they're alive? Okay? So all I have to say
Speaker 1: Amanda is our last female character, and I think our
Speaker 1: last character that we haven't really discussed very much.
Speaker 3: Right, which I think will be a conduit by which
Speaker 3: we can I.
Speaker 1: Mean, we're approaching the two hour mark. Dreamie.
Speaker 3: I've been recording for one hour and forty eight minutes.
Speaker 1: Okay, the Glaucus took. The clock is ticking, and at
Speaker 1: the end, Fleet tears his own fur off and it
Speaker 1: turns out it's Jigsaw.
Speaker 3: Oh what a twist.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Amanda, Yeah, Amanda is an interesting character. I
Speaker 1: feel like, for as much as I love talking about
Speaker 1: the Socks Bandit universe, let's just talk about her in
Speaker 1: the context of this movie, because in the subsequent movies
Speaker 1: she turned, she becomes an association, comes like one of
Speaker 1: Jigsaw's minions stream Rise of Grew.
Speaker 3: Well, do you think she's more of a Kevin or
Speaker 3: more of a Stuart or more of a Bob.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good question, Thank you for asking. I
Speaker 1: would say she's not She's not a Kevin. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say that she's like, well, no, actually she may. She
Speaker 1: may be close to Kevin because she does have leadership
Speaker 1: qualities later on, but she doesn't need to be in charge.
Speaker 1: But she is kind of the head minion. And that's
Speaker 1: how I would describe Kevin. I think she's got a
Speaker 1: little bit of Kevin energy.
Speaker 3: Sure, because Bob is like the baby one.
Speaker 1: Bob is the baby. Gotta love him. Stuart is the
Speaker 1: rebel and the rock star. Kevin he is he's funny,
Speaker 1: but he's you know, but he's the one that picks
Speaker 1: up the phone. Does Kevin le Mignons such a good
Speaker 1: part Bello, It's so funny. Amanda. I think is interesting
Speaker 1: because she is the only woman in the movie whose
Speaker 1: steaks are not directly tied to Carrie el Was. She's
Speaker 1: like the only woman who stands on her own as
Speaker 1: a character, which kind of bears out throughout the franchise
Speaker 1: because the other women don't come back. She does as
Speaker 1: Kevin le Mignon. But I also think that it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know that she's necessarily treated in a I
Speaker 1: don't know, what do you think. I didn't think she
Speaker 1: was treated in a particularly gendered way by Jigsaw. I'm
Speaker 1: more an issue with how they were treating her character
Speaker 1: as a recovering addict.
Speaker 3: I agree, although her bear.
Speaker 1: Drop on the head doesn't feel particularly gendered to me.
Speaker 1: It just feels like, Hey, don't do that to.
Speaker 3: Me, because she's only in one sequence and it's in
Speaker 3: a flashback where she doesn't really interact with our main characters.
Speaker 3: My main note about that was, why do the detectives
Speaker 3: have Lawrence watch her testimony.
Speaker 1: Amazing question.
Speaker 3: If he's a suspect, that does I mean?
Speaker 1: Ultimately, Danny Glover is estrange from his son for a reason.
Speaker 1: He's bad at his job, and I wonder, I guess
Speaker 1: that if you play the video game wrong, Danny Glover's
Speaker 1: son is also a bad cop because Carla Song gets
Speaker 1: torn in half by an elevator.
Speaker 3: Oh shit, yeah, yeah, so my when I was examining
Speaker 3: the Amanda piece of the puzzle, if you will, if
Speaker 3: we're looking at this movie as if it's a puzzle,
Speaker 3: uh huh, why would the detectives have Lawrence watch her testimony?
Speaker 3: Doesn't make any sense? Good question, But yes, I don't.
Speaker 3: Nothing pinged for me as far as like the treatment
Speaker 3: of her character seems sexist. But yes, and again we
Speaker 3: are trying to examine the logic and morality of Jigsaw's
Speaker 3: code of ethics, which often doesn't make much sense.
Speaker 6: Yeah no, but I think the movie approaches He's chaos kadochy.
Speaker 6: I maybe would have to see more of the rewatch
Speaker 6: more of the franchise, But I wonder how much of
Speaker 6: this story is the filmmaker's asking the audience to be
Speaker 6: like well, yeah, these victims, like they're sort of deserving
Speaker 6: of where they're at, and whether or not they managed
Speaker 6: to escape is going to sort of determine, like and
Speaker 6: like how they feel about if they've you know, reevaluated
Speaker 6: their life, if they're gonna be like deserving of a redemption.
Speaker 6: So I'm not really sure where the movies land on,
Speaker 6: Like I.
Speaker 1: Feel like it is kind of like left up to
Speaker 1: you because it's like, I don't know, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: like one of those things where we were like, well,
Speaker 1: no one's leaving the theater, being like Jigsaw was one
Speaker 1: hundred percent correct, but except for except for the people
Speaker 1: who were are on a list. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's supposed to be ambiguous in a
Speaker 1: way that I think is like kind of interesting. And
Speaker 1: the more time that goes on, I think the more reads,
Speaker 1: whether it intended at the time or not, kind of
Speaker 1: become possible for the modern saw connoisseur.
Speaker 3: Sure if you will.
Speaker 1: I wanted to say something really quickly about the guy
Speaker 1: who designs the saw traps, so Saw one, you don't
Speaker 1: they're all it's such a I mean, this movie was
Speaker 1: made for a million dollars, which is wild because you're like,
Speaker 1: isn't that just like how much Danny Glover would make
Speaker 1: for showing up? Apparently it was a labor of love.
Speaker 1: Carrie Elle Was and Danny Glover both very big stars,
Speaker 1: Danny Glover more so, but Carrie Elle was, you know,
Speaker 1: a well known actor, like kind of wild that they
Speaker 1: were in this Australian movie by two twenty five year olds. Also,
Speaker 1: but I think that that's beautiful. I like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I also like I don't know enough about like actors' salaries.
Speaker 3: You hear about like Tom Cruise gets twenty million dollars
Speaker 3: for every mission Impossible movie, and then I think people
Speaker 3: assume that like most stars make that on every movie
Speaker 3: there is sure, but I feel like, you know, like
Speaker 3: not as bankable of stars, and like character actors and
Speaker 3: stuff like make a far more modest living, you know,
Speaker 3: and like I think Glover pretty bankable, pretty bankable for sure,
Speaker 3: But I don't I don't know, I don't know how
Speaker 3: much she was paid for this anyways.
Speaker 1: I wonder if he was kind of like in a
Speaker 1: I don't know, or maybe it's one of those one
Speaker 1: for me, one for them, and the one for me
Speaker 1: is saw could be Saw one two thousand and four. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be the one for me. Uh, make no mistake.
Speaker 1: What else was he in around this time? Yeah? I
Speaker 1: guess that this wasn't like a.
Speaker 3: Well, his heyday was more in like the eighties with
Speaker 3: like lethal weapons.
Speaker 1: Eighties and nineties. Yeah. So he's making his indie comeback
Speaker 1: and Saw one, and I think he I mean, his
Speaker 1: character is so weird, but I always love watching Danny Glover,
Speaker 1: So there you got. I mean. Yeah, So, anyways, Saw one,
Speaker 1: the budget is very low. James Wand literally makes the
Speaker 1: Jigsaw doll himself with paper mache. Kind of amazing. Saw
Speaker 1: two and onwards. I believe they get a guy to
Speaker 1: design the traps, which is really cool. They have this
Speaker 1: art director who comes on Saw two through five, which
Speaker 1: is where all the iconic ones are. His name is
Speaker 1: David Hackle. I just wanted to give him a quick
Speaker 1: shout out because he designed some of the most horrific
Speaker 1: shit I've ever seen in my entire life. They describe
Speaker 1: from Saw too the pile of needles that I remembered.
Speaker 1: He and his department had to spend two weeks with
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty thousand syringes individually removing the needle
Speaker 1: and replacing it with something that wouldn't hurt the actor.
Speaker 3: Whoa, I know.
Speaker 1: What the craft, the raw craft been of the sawt
Speaker 1: franchise iconic. It's iconic. Blow, it blows one's mind, not
Speaker 1: to be underestimated. In conclusion, I think this is an
Speaker 1: amazing movie. I love that it launched James Wand's career.
Speaker 1: There are I mean, it's It's also rare, unfortunately in
Speaker 1: Hollywood filmmaking for an Asian director to be making movies
Speaker 1: on this scale. But again, this movie kind of isn't
Speaker 1: on this scale. He only is making Aquaman movies now
Speaker 1: because he, you know, was up till four in the
Speaker 1: morning in Australia making a little jigsaw at his house.
Speaker 1: I think it's inspiring. Yeah, it makes me want to
Speaker 1: be better.
Speaker 3: It's the kind of inspiring thing that again would be
Speaker 3: on Viola Davis's Instagram feed.
Speaker 1: It's true and apparently this was like Saw was. Also
Speaker 1: there's something called Saw zero point five which I've never seen,
Speaker 1: but I guess this was like similar to what we
Speaker 1: do in the Shadouts. It was a short film they
Speaker 1: made that was then turned into a few, so that's
Speaker 1: how they got a million dollars to make the feature.
Speaker 1: What they made a Saw short and that's why Lee
Speaker 1: Wannel is in the movie is because he was in
Speaker 1: Saw zero point five.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, I did read that on scholarly journal Wikipedia.
Speaker 3: I have a quick list of just kind of stray observations.
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm gonna just to the listeners. It is almost
Speaker 1: two hours, but we'll edit it well.
Speaker 3: Ed recording a hour.
Speaker 1: And what are yours? I want to know your strays.
Speaker 3: Okay, real quick. I appreciate that there is representation on
Speaker 3: screen of men being really bad at throwing and catching
Speaker 3: because they are tossing around keys, tapes, saws, cigarettes, lighters,
Speaker 3: photographs and the only thing that either of them actually
Speaker 3: catches is one time when Lawrence catches the tape player.
Speaker 3: Everything else they throw and catch terribly. It's bad, and
Speaker 3: I thought it was hilarious to watch. Another thing, Adam
Speaker 3: does not wash off his hand after sticking it in
Speaker 3: the toilet bowl, which seems to be full of liquid shit.
Speaker 3: There was like clean water in the toilet tank, but
Speaker 3: he does not clean off his hand and he just
Speaker 3: keeps it all poopy for the rest of the movie. Disgusting, horrible,
Speaker 3: Alison runs so slowly to her daughter's room when she
Speaker 3: hears Diana screaming when she's being abducted, she does a
Speaker 3: brisk walk. Shout out to the diorama that mister Saw
Speaker 3: aka Jigsaw made of the bathroom escape Room So funny,
Speaker 3: which we see.
Speaker 1: Are you up to well? Are you doing?
Speaker 3: I like to think that James Wand also made that himself.
Speaker 3: He was like, I just need this.
Speaker 1: Honestly, not unlikely based on what I have heard and
Speaker 1: read about this movie. Yep.
Speaker 3: Shout out to the line where Adam says, my last girlfriend,
Speaker 3: a feminist vegan punk, broke up with me because she
Speaker 3: thought I was too angry.
Speaker 1: And then you're like, okay, time to kill him. Yes, exactly, Okay, Jigsaw,
Speaker 1: game over Slam done.
Speaker 3: There's a part where Danny Glover yells at Zepp. Also
Speaker 3: the fact that there's a character named Zepp. So Danny
Speaker 3: Glover says, I'm going to kill you, you sick ass hoe.
Speaker 1: Amazing.
Speaker 3: Okay, here's a fun thing I rewound.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's not.
Speaker 3: What he says, but it sounds sound.
Speaker 1: No, let's just say, let's just say it. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Carrie you Willis plays a doctor in the movie New
Speaker 3: Years Eve, and I like to think that he's playing
Speaker 3: the same character in that movie and in the Saw movies.
Speaker 1: Because he lives right, he cauterizes world right.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, he has a prosthetic foot. So I
Speaker 3: think that the Saw movies and New Year's Eve take
Speaker 3: place in the same universe.
Speaker 1: I believe that. Okay, I'm in, I'm in.
Speaker 3: I had a quick question did escape rooms exist before
Speaker 3: the movie Saw, because they didn't really become popular until after.
Speaker 3: But I goog I did some research and it turns
Speaker 3: out kind of the first like modern escape room with
Speaker 3: something called True Dungeon in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA. It premiered
Speaker 3: in July two thousand and three, but they didn't become
Speaker 3: popular until like the twenty tens. I would say, and
Speaker 3: I wonder if Saw help popular.
Speaker 1: You have to imagine escape rooms Saw how a hand
Speaker 1: in it. I think so, if not Patient zero. I
Speaker 1: also wanted to shout out the guy who plays Zep
Speaker 1: was on Lost, and then once I learned that I couldn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't notice at first, but then on my rewatch
Speaker 1: and we're like, wait a second. I was forced to
Speaker 1: watch Lost ones He's on like a lot of the show.
Speaker 3: He's definitely in Lost. Also in Lost is ken Ling,
Speaker 3: the actor who plays Yes Detective Sing And I was like,
Speaker 3: is the whole cast of Lost in the movie Saw?
Speaker 1: And if so, did jj Abrams just watch Saw and
Speaker 1: be like, Now, this is a hell of a cast
Speaker 1: because Lost premieres in late two thousand and four. So
Speaker 1: what do you think about that? The jj Abrams James Wanstan,
Speaker 1: I would believe it. I hope so he knows what's
Speaker 1: good for him.
Speaker 3: And then my final thing is The soundtrack of the
Speaker 3: movie Saw was reviewed by Johnny Loftus AH.
Speaker 1: And five stars. Right, Okay, it's my pseudonym. This is hilarious.
Speaker 3: Johnny Loftus of AllMusic gave the soundtrack of Saw three
Speaker 3: out of five stars, AH, saying that the composer whose
Speaker 3: name is uh oh shit Klauser, don't know his first name.
Speaker 1: Though, Look, Hans Zimmer couldn't do it. Hans Zimmer couldn't
Speaker 1: make it happen the way that whoever this person is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so the composer of the Saw score quote really
Speaker 3: nails it with his creaky clammy score, which makes you
Speaker 3: think that if he thinks he nails it, why only
Speaker 3: three out of five stars.
Speaker 1: That shit makes me so mad when someone writes you
Speaker 1: essentially a good review and then they're like, I give
Speaker 1: it a C minus and you're like for what.
Speaker 3: Yeah, who were you said you liked it?
Speaker 1: Scottish theater reviewer or whomever sounds like you liked the
Speaker 1: show in you'd give it three out of five stars.
Speaker 1: Table flip unbelievable. Johnny loftus Johnny Lofts, It's interesting that
Speaker 1: you would say that when Jigsaw is still at large.
Speaker 1: I'll say that, what are you implying je or is
Speaker 1: it Johnny Lofts Jigsaw Lock.
Speaker 3: Jiggy Jiggy Loft. I'm sorry that I just made you
Speaker 3: spit out your diet coke.
Speaker 1: It's all right, it's He'll be okay. Oh boy, well
Speaker 1: would you look at that. It's time for me to
Speaker 1: cut my foot off. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oops, we did record for two hours and six minutes,
Speaker 3: so we both have to cut our feet off.
Speaker 1: There's someone at the door and it looks like the
Speaker 1: game might be over.
Speaker 3: The game is over?
Speaker 1: Can we start playing that? At the end of every app.
Speaker 3: Game over slam and then the episode's over.
Speaker 1: That's basically how every That's how every podcast episode should
Speaker 1: game over slam. Oh god, okay, So does this movie
Speaker 1: pass the viable test? I don't think so there's okay,
Speaker 1: hang on, Okay. So Diana goes to her mom's bedside
Speaker 1: and Allison says, are you okay?
Speaker 3: Can you hear me? And Diana says mommy, and she says,
Speaker 3: what is it, sweet pea? But then she's like, there's
Speaker 3: a man in my room. And then I talk about
Speaker 3: the man in her room for a little bit, and
Speaker 3: then she's like, I want Daddy to get the scary
Speaker 3: man away. So that one is up for debate because
Speaker 3: it starts out passing, but then the ultimately the conversation,
Speaker 3: the whole conversation is about the scary man, and then
Speaker 3: Daddy's saving them.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 3: There's another interaction later on where Alison is like, I
Speaker 3: need you to be really really strong for me, but
Speaker 3: like Diana's just kind of like crying. And also the
Speaker 3: context is like they're scared because a scary man has
Speaker 3: abducted them and might kill them. So I feel like,
Speaker 3: probably no. But there is some interactions and.
Speaker 1: There's some healthy debate over on Bechdel test dot com
Speaker 1: about whether this passes. There's like two people go absolutely
Speaker 1: going at it in the comments, trying to decide whether
Speaker 1: those two scenes you just describe constitute a past or not.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it doesn't constitute it. Unfortunately, I agree. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I look, it's a flawed metric and yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: also not a feminist movie. Like you know, this movie
Speaker 1: is an ally to no one because it's about Jigsaw,
Speaker 1: who is an ally to no one. He has no
Speaker 1: love in his heart except he does, except he practices.
Speaker 1: I feel like he does. Jigsaw is the bad side
Speaker 1: of wellness culpture because he's like practice gratitude, but he
Speaker 1: absolutely diabolical, scariest person in the world, but always screaming
Speaker 1: about gratitude. Okay, nipple scale who tough?
Speaker 3: Wow, I feel like this movie defies the scale.
Speaker 1: I honestly kind of did too.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's not that much that made me feel horrified.
Speaker 3: From a representation standpoint, I felt horrified.
Speaker 1: No, it's mostly I mean, especially for a movie of
Speaker 1: this era, I was expecting to us to have way
Speaker 1: more non ambiguous bad shit to talk about it because.
Speaker 3: It was this era. I feel like especially that regardless
Speaker 3: of what the movie was about or what genre it
Speaker 3: was in, you would just have characters randomly dropping homophobic slurs,
Speaker 3: making racist comments seemingly randomly, like just absolutely.
Speaker 1: Needless on one in one El's.
Speaker 3: Watch, certainly not so not that that one.
Speaker 1: Except for that one disparage and comment from Adam. I
Speaker 1: think that that was.
Speaker 3: Literally the feminists are angry.
Speaker 1: But that was like and also that character sucks. So
Speaker 1: I could also see it being like, oh, here's a
Speaker 1: reason to not like this guy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he presumably dies at the end. We're not sure.
Speaker 1: I don't think he does in the universe, but who does.
Speaker 3: Ultimately, Okay, I think I just need to give this
Speaker 3: like a.
Speaker 1: Is it like a two nipples? It's so hard because
Speaker 1: you're like, but I don't, Yeah, I guess, yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess I'll just go right down the middle. I'll say
Speaker 1: two and a half. There's nothing wrong. But it's also
Speaker 1: not like its mission is not to further a discussion
Speaker 1: of anything, except like.
Speaker 3: I beg is a feminist masterpiece.
Speaker 1: I mean, that is kind of what I believe, but
Speaker 1: I know that it's bad practice to say so, and
Speaker 1: it will decrease my credibility in the eyes of a listeners. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: I do think that this is still one of my
Speaker 1: favorite movies. I had no.
Speaker 3: Idea you were so into the Sauna verse.
Speaker 1: It's weird because I really just like Saw. One is
Speaker 1: such a classic and it's not like a comfort movie.
Speaker 1: But I watched Saw about like once a year. I
Speaker 1: enjoy Saw quite a bit, and I love James Wand
Speaker 1: And the more I feel like James Wand I got
Speaker 1: really into late last year because I was working with
Speaker 1: Sarah Marshall on something about the couple from the Conjuring movies,
Speaker 1: and so I got deep into the Wanta verse. And
Speaker 1: those movies are not good, but I still love James
Speaker 1: Wand So what can you do? I would get this
Speaker 1: movie two and a half nipples and five hundred little jigsaws.
Speaker 3: Oh oh yeah, what was I thinking? Yeah, a five
Speaker 3: hundred piece jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 3: See, I'd give it a thousand pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker 1: I really want there to be more jigsaws.
Speaker 3: Here's what I'm going to do, because you gave me
Speaker 3: an idea just the Saw movies for my movie marathon
Speaker 3: this Halloween season. I'm going to do Hallo Wan and
Speaker 3: then we can watch more Lignan again because I've never
Speaker 3: seen Insidious. The insidious movies.
Speaker 1: Insidious is pretty fun. I say, let's I would advocate
Speaker 1: for us watching Conjuring one and maybe then calling it
Speaker 1: a day. By the time you get to the Conjuring
Speaker 1: the Devil that made me do it, you're like, this
Speaker 1: is too much, too much, too much. But we could
Speaker 1: watch Annabelle because that's pretty good. I was not James
Speaker 1: want directed. But this is part of the Wanaverse, part.
Speaker 3: Of the universe. Yeah, exactly. Wow.
Speaker 1: And then he's got the new Aquaman coming out at
Speaker 1: some point, question mark, I don't.
Speaker 3: Know, true well anyway.
Speaker 1: And I love that Lee Wandell, Like I really enjoyed
Speaker 1: the Invisible Man. I didn't realize that it was Adam
Speaker 1: from Saul question why? Good shit. Also, they're such good
Speaker 1: friends that Lee Wannell had a cameo in Aquaman. Oh
Speaker 1: is that cute?
Speaker 3: That is very cute. I like that they're still friends.
Speaker 1: It's cute. Okay, Well, Caitlin, thank you for talking about
Speaker 1: Saw with me for my birthday. I love Saw.
Speaker 3: Hey, happy belated birthday.
Speaker 1: It's it's over now, but look but but but I
Speaker 1: live on until Jigsaw gets me. What an amazing movie.
Speaker 1: I had a great time listeners. We hope you had
Speaker 1: a good time, because we sure did.
Speaker 3: We sure did.
Speaker 1: Please found off in the comments with what I'm sure
Speaker 1: was me getting canon incorrect. Let's discuss if anyone has
Speaker 1: a baby Jigsaw doll. I do have buyer's remorse for
Speaker 1: not getting it.
Speaker 3: Wait does such a thing exist already?
Speaker 1: Some sicko on Etsy made baby Jigsaw and I failed
Speaker 1: to buy it, and then when I went to check,
Speaker 1: someone else, bafflingly had purchased it.
Speaker 3: So it was just like a one time one done
Speaker 3: and want it done.
Speaker 1: An independent creator, an artist made baby Jigsaw and I
Speaker 1: fucked up, and I was like I would be afraid
Speaker 1: of that, which I would have been, but it would
Speaker 1: have been nice to have.
Speaker 3: Wow, I know, I know. Okay, that is the end?
Speaker 3: Uh or that's where we're cutting out of the Matreon episode.
Speaker 1: Kaeln Yeah, Jamie, Oh wait how much how much time
Speaker 1: do we have? Less?
Speaker 3: We're definitely over two hours?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: No oh, no, here comes someone. Hi, it's me No Jigsaw.
Speaker 1: No wait, Jigsaw, just make sure first before you kill us.
Speaker 1: Please subscribe to the Matreon. Please cut a patreon dot
Speaker 1: com slash bectl cass if you enjoyed this episode and
Speaker 1: get over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes not available
Speaker 1: on the main feed for the low price of five
Speaker 1: dollars a month. Jigsaw please oh consider it.
Speaker 3: But but since the episode was over two hours long,
Speaker 3: guess what what? Game over?
Speaker 1: Swam Bye Bye.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Voskresenski. Our logo in merch
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdel Cast