WEBVTT - The Truth About Phil and Saudi Arabia 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.039 You can't build league around sea less players. Just nobody's 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:12.640 gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's comments made 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:15.400 the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and Bryson had 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.480 to change the heart, or maybe they've been they they 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.400 were they always on the fence and it's helped nudge them, 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.000 or maybe they had already signed and they somehow said 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:26.639 screw it, man, this is terrible. This. You know, Phil 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:28.920 talked me into it, and he was he was seduced 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.640 me and fills my guy and this is how he 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.840 feels like. Now, you know, this will all get revealed 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:37.559 in time. We don't have those answers yet, but it 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:39.640 does feel like, as of this moment, the Staudi Golf 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:42.960 League is dead. And you know, Phil helped write the 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:55.440 obituary for sure, put another logo fire Nobody here is 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:05.559 get the time. Welcome to the fire Pit with Matt Chinella. Alright, 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:07.600 so many of you know by now, a fire pit 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:12.840 podcast is one story told by multiple voices or perspectives reflections. 0:01:13.800 --> 0:01:19.520 In this case, and like a few others, we're kind 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:22.840 of referring to of them as fire drills, fire pit 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:27.319 employees and special guests getting together talking about breaking news, 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.000 see Phil's win at the p g A, or in 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:35.640 this case, see Phil doing what Phil does best, which 0:01:35.720 --> 0:01:39.720 is be the smartest one in the room, or in 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.200 this case, be the smartest one on the phone. The 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.040 guy he was talking to on the other end of 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:49.160 the phone was Alan Schipnuk, who joins me now to 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:54.640 talk about what has become the story in golf for 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.840 the last several days, which is the fact that Phil 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:06.840 has is beneficially revealed two using the Saudi Golf League 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:11.760 and this proposed breakaway league as leverage to try to 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:16.560 get what you know, he wants or improvements to the 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:22.200 general tour on behalf of the players or you know. 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:29.280 I don't know, Alan, what exactly was the motive here. Yeah, 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:32.560 it's layered for sure, and I will say um, to 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.959 some degree, I'm a little surprised that this has gone 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:37.880 around the world the way it has, because I'm getting 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:44.400 notifications from websites that are in Italian, French, Arabic, German, 0:02:45.680 --> 0:02:49.600 Portuguese people. It's the story has touched such a nerve. 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.800 But to me it was kind of obvious all along 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.280 that Phil was working both sides of the street and 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.400 that he was trying to create this bidding war for 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:03.399 services between the DJ Tour and on the Saudi Golf League. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.639 Now the tour can't pay him directly, but they could 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:10.360 acquiesce to some of his longstanding demands, which they have done, 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.040 and therefore they're paying him into directly. Um, I guess 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:16.799 because he said the quiet parts out loud, that's what 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.839 it was surprising, and in in a world of bullshit tery, 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:25.000 for him to be so blunt and to just say 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.000 it as raw and uncensored as you did it, it 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:34.040 was pretty eye catching and it did reveal and again 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.360 it depends how you look at you could respect the candor. Right. 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:39.760 You know, other guys that go to Saudi Arabia and 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:41.640 they talk about growing the game, which is a joke. 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:43.600 The game is not growing in Saudi Arabia. It's a 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.480 freaking desert and there's forty million people in two golf 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.280 courses where the numbers are like, No one's trying to 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:51.040 grow the games out Arabia. They're just going to there 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:55.760 take a chat um. So to me, it was a 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.320 little refreshing that Phil was honest, but it also it 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.920 was sort of morally bankrupt for him to say, you know, 0:04:02.240 --> 0:04:04.120 I know they're bad actors and they've done all these 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:06.400 horrible things, but I don't care because I'm just using 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.160 as a as a bargaining chip, and that obviously rubs 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:15.240 some people the wrong way. So you know, too, what 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.080 what is Phil's endgame here? We're going to find out shortly, 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:21.320 but ultimately, I think the reason he told me what 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:26.480 he told me is he wanted his real true interfeelings 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.880 to be revealed, and he wanted on record that he 0:04:31.240 --> 0:04:35.279 knows the Saudi's are bad actors and that it's just business. 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:37.360 It's not personal. You know, this is just something he 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.400 felt he had to do to make life better for 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:45.000 everyone on the PGA tour, and it was important for him, uh, 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:47.080 you know, for golf fans to know he's just gaining 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.159 the system and yes, he is the smartest guy in 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.680 the room. And but of course he did sort of 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.680 outsmart himself on this one because he badly underestimated the 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:56.960 kind of backlash that would be created. And now it 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.719 looks like the whole, whole, the whole enterprise this crumbling. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:02.600 But again, maybe that's what Phil wanted. I mean, he 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.400 said to me, I'm not sure even want to succeed 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:07.960 you know, he's gotten a lot of concessions he wanted, 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.080 and now this gives him an easy way to walk away. 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.479 Because the money was getting so big and he was 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.159 so deeply invested in the creation of the league and 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:18.840 everything else. It was gonna be hard, and he's helped 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:20.280 sell out to other players. It was gonna be hard 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.279 for him not to take the plunge, right like he 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.400 he'd sort of painted himself into a corner. So if 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.040 it goes away, He's like, great, I could stay on 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.000 the PGA tour. I got most of what I wanted. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.840 My reputation took a little hit, but you know it's 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.400 not the first time, and his fans always seem to 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.839 come back to him. So it's it's a it's a 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:41.600 fascinating episode in a career full of controversy, and um 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:44.240 people talking about how it's gonna affect his legacy will see. 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.360 But you know, Phil, Phil has been down this road before. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.200 I mean, he's taking plenty of bullets and he just 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.040 keeps going. But at this moment, this this feels like 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.320 like he's had a big fork in the road. Oh 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.600 my gosh. I mean, I like to talk about how 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:03.600 what incredible reporter you are. What a great interview you are? 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:07.280 You You're a great interview also because one question and 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:12.560 you're you, you answered, you have a lot of answers. 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:14.880 Oh my bad, my bad, I just I just I 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.520 didn't ahead like for different talking. Let's pull let's pull 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.839 a few of these things apart for a second before 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.440 we get to the end game and his legacy at all. 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:31.320 I mean, did this story you know, I know you're 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.159 not going to be the one to say, oh, you 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:39.240 killed the Saudi golfleet, but did this story? Did the truth? 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:46.320 Did fills truth in fills words? Actually put such a 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:52.040 puncture in this, you know, dysfunctional tire that they can't 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:55.800 it can't, it can't be driven anymore. It sure feels 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.080 that way. You know, today on Sunday, February, you know, 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.839 both dust and Johnson and Bryson de shambo Um put 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:07.200 out statements highly unusual on a Sunday at a Marquee 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.000 tournament where the tour is going to you know, essentially 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:14.520 trumpet the words of of some players who are not 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.600 in contention or are not factors in the tournament, right, 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:20.600 but they um, they both renounced the Saudias and those 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:22.720 were two of the biggest names linked to the whole thing. Now, 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:28.080 everyone has been in constant negotiations and the only the 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:29.960 only winners and all this are the lawyers with the 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:33.440 billable hours right because there's and the agents. There's been 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:35.679 so much dealmaking going on behind the scenes. So whether 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.480 Dustin and Bryson were actually gonna jump or how close 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:43.280 they were, not many people know that, but for sure 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.560 they were. They were being wooed and they were thinking 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.880 about it. We know that for certain. So, uh, you 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:51.760 take them out of the mix and all the other 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.000 players this week at the l A Open, who probably 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:56.840 with some prodding from Jay Monahan got in front of 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.800 microphone and said, you know, my leadnesses or my fealty 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:04.160 my new favorite word, or with the PGA tour um, 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.840 you know who's left. You know, Dustin Johnson is still 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.280 could be a dominant force of the game. Bryson moves 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:14.480 the needle like few others. They would be important pieces 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.120 in this. Now you're left of what Ian Poulter and 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.239 Lee Westwood, who are both heading to the Senior Tour soon. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.480 I mean, Phil still a star, but uh, you know 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:25.480 the PG Championship was only top ten of the year 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.000 and he knows what he has left in the tank. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.200 It can't be that much. You know, you needed Bryson, 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:35.439 you needed Dustin's star power. You take that away, Jason 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:38.679 co Crack. I mean, uh, some of these other you know, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:46.160 come on like so I think that unless unless the 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.640 boys in Saudi Arabia have some real tricks up their 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:52.880 sleeve and somehow, um, they're gonna get someone to change 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:54.840 their mind. And I guess we all have a price, 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.600 But it seems like the players who are now out, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.600 it's just it's just too much star power gone. I mean, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.559 you can't. You can't build league around Sea list players. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:10.280 Just nobody's gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.280 comments made the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.040 Bryson had to change the heart, or maybe they've been 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.360 they they were they always on the fence and this 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.280 helped nudge them, or maybe they had already signed and 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.160 they somehow said screw it, man, this is terrible. This. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.480 You know, Phil talked me into it, and he was 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.640 he was seduced me and fills my guy and this 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.640 is how he feels like now you know, this will 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.720 all get revealed in time. We don't have those answers yet, 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.439 but it does feel like as of this moment, the 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:41.120 Stoudi Golf League is dead. And you know, Phil helped 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:46.960 write the obituary for sure. So again we we we 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.160 got a lot to get to here. And but let's 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:54.120 go back now for a second and talk about the 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:58.520 actual interview itself, about the actual phone call. You're doing 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:03.120 an unauthorized biog fee on Phil Nicholson. He wasn't talking 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.560 to you. A lot of people in his camp weren't 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.160 talking to you. You were doing your due diligence and 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:15.679 intrepid reporting for months, over a year your career essentially, 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.199 How did how does the actual call come about? You know, 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:21.480 I say this book has been thirty years in the making. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.960 You know, my first year cover on the tour that 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.600 was Phil's second full season, and I've been tracking him 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:30.280 the whole time. You know, he was instantly one of 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.400 the most important players in golf and maybe the most interesting, 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.800 certainly one of the most controversial. And I've always been 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.080 drawn to Phil um. You know, I'm not one of 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:42.920 his I'm not one of his guys. I mean, there 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.880 are a lot of reporters who have played recreational rounds 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:47.520 of golf with him, or they've gone out too long 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:52.360 discursive dinners. You know I've done neither. Um you know, 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:55.040 there's always been a little weariness between Phil and I. 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.000 That's served me well because it makes me a little 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.800 more clear eyed and I could see things the more perspective, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.240 and I can write about it a little more honestly, 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:05.520 because I'm not trying to protect some quasi friendship like 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.520 some of these other guys. But um, you know, I've 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:12.839 always loved writing about Phil. And you love him or 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.560 hate him, He's never boring. And I've been on the 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.440 ground for as great as victories and his most crushing defeats, 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:19.960 and I've had a lot of access to him through 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.720 the years. I've been to his house, We've we've dined 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:25.160 at his club. After you won the Claret jug I 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:27.240 sneaked into the victory party and I was drinking champagne 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:32.600 with him and Amy, Um, you know, charity of things 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.520 that were not public. I crashed and we hung out 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.520 in the manager's office at this target, munch on donuts. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.240 And so I've been around Phil a lot, and I 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.040 have a lot of insights. So I didn't need him 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:46.480 for this book. Of course, I wanted him. So I 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.120 approached three separate times face to face, asked him if 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:52.240 if you would sit for interviews, and he thought about it, 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.120 and he went back and forth and ultimately he declined, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.400 which is his prerogative. Um, he was very worried. He 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.320 didn't want it to appear as an author as it 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.280 was a Thris biography, which you know I told this 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.080 to Nicholas Palmer. Dozens of biographies have been written about 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.000 those guys. They had they got no money, and they 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.240 had no editorial control. They weren't authorized per se, but 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.880 they still sat with the writers because they felt there 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:17.199 was value in telling their side of every story and 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.840 burnishing their own legend. And I encouraged Filed you the same. 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.480 But um, you know, he didn't. He didn't go down 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.240 that road, which was fine, But I guess in October 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.959 of one, you know, he texted me and I just 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:33.040 know it would have been November of twenty one. He 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:35.760 texted me and said he you know, he wanted to 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.559 talk about the tour and meteorites and n f t 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:44.079 s and related issues and what could we have a conversation? 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.480 I said, yeah, sure, I mean obviously those are those 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.320 are not the sexiest topics. If if I made a 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:50.840 list of what I wanted to interview feel about for 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:52.840 the book, they wouldn't even be in the top ten. 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.160 But he said he didn't want to talk about anything else. 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.160 You just want to talk about those things. And I said, okay, fine, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.360 So he called me up and it was actually I 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.000 was driving home from the Wishbone brawl. It was that Sunday, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.560 after the brawl, after Thanksgiving, and that's that's when we 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:10.760 had this, this this conversation. And it's a really important point. 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.480 I'm a biographer working on a book. He's asked to speak. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:16.840 Every single thing he says to me is going in 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:21.120 the book unless we agree expressly that it's not. And 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.960 if he wants to set some ground rules, and if 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:25.560 you wanted to go off of the record, I would 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:27.440 have pushed back really hard because this is my one 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:30.360 chance to talk to him. But he never asked to 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.480 go off the record. He never said it was on background. 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.679 He never said this is just between me and you 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.360 or tried to intimate anything like that. Um, whether in 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.599 the text beforehand and we got on the phone, he 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:42.960 just started talking at that point. It is an on 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:47.240 the record interview with a biographer. There's that's not even 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.520 in question. I think every other writer in the world 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:53.440 would have the same attitude. And so he just starts 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:58.520 talking and he says all these amazing things, and you know, 0:13:58.600 --> 0:14:01.240 he we had discussed it. You know, the timeline for 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.480 the book is coming out in May, and as as 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.320 this whole thing is played out, I really think Phil 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.160 wanted his innermost feelings to be recorded, and he wanted, 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.120 you know, me and therefore my readers to know how 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.600 he really felt, which is he recognizes the Saudis are 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.720 bad guys, and they're bad actors, and and there's a 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.760 discomfort dealing with them, which he hasn't said publicly at all. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.600 But at the same time, this was a once in 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.200 a lifetime opportunity to to reshape the PG tour and 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.320 he couldn't let it go by. And so um again, 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.080 you know he Phil rarely opens his mouth without an agenda, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.880 and he's always working in an edge in an angle, 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:44.080 and so for him not to go on or off 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:47.040 the record or do anything like that, I think that 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.560 was a calculated decision because now he can go back 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.320 to the guys in saut Arabia and say, you know, oh, 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.760 I was misquoted, he was taking out context. He can 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.480 tell him whatever he wants and probably to try and 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:00.040 you know, to try and spin it his way. But 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.280 he's now on record as not really ever being totally 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.520 on board, and so if this whole thing goes away, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.160 he can be like, you know, I didn't want to 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.480 go anyway, That's what I told Allen, and and I 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.200 was just using it for leverage. And I won. You know, 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.280 I got. I got the n f T platform for 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.080 the tour. A hundred million dollars is getting poured back 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.800 into the players. I won the PIP. He's like I won, 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.680 you know, he he was able. It was it becomes 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.320 revisionist history. And if it come out in May, you know, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.360 this whole thing would have been done and dusted, because 0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.600 everything we heard, and every indication from from players and 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:35.080 agents I've talked to you was that there was gonna 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:38.040 be announcement in March the week of the Players Championship 0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.320 that the Saudi Golfing was a go, that they'd signed 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:44.040 twenty players, and this was happening. And and so if 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.800 the book comes out two months later, everything is settled. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.960 But Phil still gets to tell golf fans with a 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.640 wink like, Okay, you know I signed with him, but 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.480 it was just business, you know, I I really I 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:59.720 know what's going on here and um, because things were 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.240 moving so fast with Saudi Arabia and the book is 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.120 not coming out till May. You know, publishing is still 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.800 an old fashioned industry. And believe it or not, there's 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.640 a paper in a glue shortage in the publishing world 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:15.760 and it's affecting the ability to print books. I mean, 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:18.120 you know it's you think we're in the eighteenth century, 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:20.120 but this is happening in two thousand twenty two. We 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.480 all know about the dreaded supply chain issues and so 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.440 there's not much flexibility in changing your dates because there's 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:29.440 only a finite amount of paper and freaking glue to 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.200 go around, and so, uh, there's not the ability to 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:37.400 move the books released DATEA You could release a digital copy, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:39.200 you know, weeks or months ahead, but publisher don't want 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:40.680 to do that once they want people to buy the books, 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:43.040 you know, they um, and they're happy to sell the 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:45.840 digital copies to other folks. But there's two different books 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.680 buying publics, those who want to hold in their hand 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:49.200 and those who want the digital copy and they don't 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:53.479 want to lose the people who still like a physical book. So, um, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.040 knowing all that, and that this Saudi Arabia stuff, which 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.120 is so juicy, was perishable because if in and the 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.640 film makes his decision and everything goes public, the intrigue 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.120 is lost and the a lot of what I had 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:10.320 becomes kind of obsolete. And so, you know, and talking 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.919 to you, Matt and other other the brain trust of 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.199 the collective and going back to Simon Schuster, we just realized, like, 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.280 now is the time. This is the hottest topic in golf. 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.000 It's coming to a boil. It's time to drop what 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.280 we have in the book and get out there now. 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.040 And and so we did. Now, you know, the timing 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:32.399 was probably not convenient for Phil, but my allegiance is 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.640 not to fill it's to the readers. It's to the truth. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.040 And this was the moment. And so you would usually 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.240 not do an excerpt, you know, three months ahead of publication. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.359 It's early for that, but it really didn't matter in 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.560 this case. You know, I'm I'm not Bob Woodward, who's 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.760 going to sit on something for a year that's that 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:52.320 has tremendous news value. But he just wants to sell 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.080 more books, like you know, around the time of publication 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.280 like this. This was the moment to drop this because 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:00.640 it advanced the conversation in a really interesting and important way. 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:05.600 And so, um, that's what we did. I mean, one 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.720 could argue that actually this was and you've touched upon 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.040 it already, this was the time to drop it for 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.120 film made. This was the perfect time for Phil because 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.000 he's not he hasn't committed to that league, because the 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:22.679 truth came out about how he actually knows the truth 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.440 about who he's potentially getting in bed with in both 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:30.320 Greg Norman and the Saudi Golf League, by the way, 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:35.719 and and and he can still and look at what 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.840 look at what has been accomplished with more pit money, 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.840 more FedEx money, more players, championship money, no wrap around 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.240 season eventually you know, um, so many you know, a 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:52.199 baseline you know, dollar figure that's attributed to having a 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.840 PGA talk. Various things have been put in place that 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.800 if those were his ambitions, whatever percentage of what he 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.359 wanted to have accomplished, it's got to be a pretty 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:08.040 high percentage of what got done. Yeah, I mean, that's 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:09.760 that's how Fiel is gonna have to spin it is 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.359 I won. I won. You know, I got the tour 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:16.600 to do to make all these concessions. Other conversations are 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.159 ongoing still, and he got out the fact that this 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.240 tour sitting on eight million dollars. The last thing that's 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:27.760 remaining are these individual rights and and control over a brand. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.240 And that's that's an uphill battle because even in the 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.239 other sports leagues, the athletes don't have that. I mean, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.720 they're the NBA is selling n f T s of 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.200 its players, but you know five basically five percent goes 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.800 to the players. It's not they It's not like Lebron 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.639 James owns his own likeness and can sells n f 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:47.760 T s, which is you know what Phil wants. But 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:49.080 if you were to get that, it would be a 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.600 monumental shift in the sports landscape. Now, it's fine to 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.000 ask for it and to push for it, but I 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.679 don't think he's gonna get it. And so you know, 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.840 he's already making he's already had some important victories. At 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.719 least they are established an tea platform. And you know 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.159 there's a hundred million dollars going to the players this 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.879 year because of Phil, largely. If you want to if 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:10.800 you want to, if you want to make it like that, 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:14.720 you know the persons went up sixty million. They don't 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.520 They basically have doubled the fete, the Players Championship person 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.200 in four years it was eleven million and eighteen it's 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.240 gonna be now it's gonna be twenty million. Um. You know, 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:28.439 they got these spurious bonus programs like the That's been 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.359 one of the frustrations with people in the golf world 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:33.720 is that the PGA Tour has not done everything they 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.560 can do for for the players. Like they're always holding 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.120 back and they're always controlling. I mean, Phil's helped crack 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.440 that open. There may be a player's union that comes 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:45.200 out of all this. So he's gonna that's his only move. 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.040 Now he's just to declare victories. Say I never wanted 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.760 to go to Saudi Arabia. Look, I told Alan that 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:53.000 back in November, and I got everything I can get 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.320 from the tour and now I'm delighted to be to 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.280 be back. And uh, I can't wait to tee up 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.800 the Players Championship my favorite events. And you know Jamon 0:20:59.880 --> 0:21:02.359 had my boy and you know his life in the 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:03.919 big leagues is every now and then you got out 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:05.560 their little chin music and that's what I did, and 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.160 let's play ball, you know, like that's that's what that's 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.520 how Phil has to spend it. And you know, yeah, 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:13.879 maybe this is the best thing that could have happened 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:19.200 for me because I think competitively, you know, he would 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.080 have been fine missing out. He loves Pebble Beach, right, 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:24.240 He's one up five times. His grandfather was a caddy there. 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:28.040 There's there's some emotional attachment to that. But he doesn't 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:30.000 have it with Tory Pines anymore because he hates to 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.720 remodel and even skipping Tori doesn't live in Phoenix anymore. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.800 So even though that tournament it was important to him 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:38.720 at various points and he won it early in his career, 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:40.840 I think he's kind of over it with Phoenix. I 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.680 don't think there's many places that that really move him 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:45.480 week in week out on the tour. So I think 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.360 he would been okay given up the PGA Tour schedule. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:51.240 But um, you know, if you signed, if you signed 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:52.720 on the dog line with Staudy Golfin, you had to 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:56.120 play every tournament. There was no flexibility. And we know that. 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:58.479 You know, Phil's always loved to be a private contract, 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.119 and he'll skip us open for his his high school graduation, 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.639 and he will disappear for months at a time to 0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.520 go on trips with Amy, and he was gonna lose 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:09.320 some of that flexibility. Not granted it's only you know, 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.960 thirteen or fourteen events they were talking about, but if 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.280 they fall on anniversaries and and kids stuff, you know, 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.800 you're kind of you're kind of aude luck. So, um, 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:21.679 I think I think Phil, I think that was his 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.840 motivation for wanting to go on record with me about 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.080 his his what was in his heart of hearts and 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.920 how about just a conscience? Yeah, well, I mean that's 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.520 given him too much credit. Like I mean, but um, 0:22:36.680 --> 0:22:39.480 so I think the Phil and I always I got 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:40.800 the sense when we spoke, because it was a lot 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.679 of conversation, like he was kind of at peace. However 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.520 played out, he was going to be fine, Like it 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:47.040 was a win win for him. Either he was gonna 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:49.640 get a monster pay day from the Saudias and take 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.400 a little shrapnel but whatever, or he was gonna get 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:54.280 his concession and stay on the tour and be happy 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.720 that way. So, uh, you know, I think in the 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:00.480 final analysis, that's probably what's gonna happen. Like, sure, he's had, 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.880 he's taken he's taking some bullets this week, and there's 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.200 been some bitchy things written about him on the internet. 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:08.720 But Phil has been engulfed in controversy plenty of times, 0:23:08.760 --> 0:23:11.600 and I think one thing he knows, And in fact, 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:15.080 Kim Bradley told me this in one of the interviews 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:17.399 of the book was that, and you know, Keik has 0:23:17.440 --> 0:23:19.359 had a few little kerfuffles over there's nothing on the 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.159 scale of Phil. But um, he said, when you're in 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:24.280 the middle of it just feels like your world has 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:28.280 ended and and you're never gonna escape this, and it's 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.959 gonna define your whole life. And Phil's advice was like, 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:32.879 it's not a big deal, dude, It's gonna be over 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:34.600 in a day and no one's gonna remember it. And 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.000 I think Phil probably still feels that way, Like right now, 0:23:37.040 --> 0:23:40.160 it's engulfed the golf world. And as you know, I mean, 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.520 we get these notifications for pingbacks. I mean, hundreds and 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:45.840 hundreds of websites around the world have cited our story 0:23:46.000 --> 0:23:48.760 and have piled on Phil. And you know, there's an 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:51.920 intensity to this that's unusual. But you know next week 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:53.640 there will be another story in golf, and I think 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:57.040 Phil's just counting on that that he's he's skated so 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:01.200 many times, and he's weathered so many storms, and uh, 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:03.320 you know, I ultimately he'll still be standing when this 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:06.320 one's over. Diminished in the eyes of some, but he's 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:09.160 still the p G A championship winner, and he still 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:12.200 has his tour pension, and he's he's still going to 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:14.560 try and win that US Open this year. And I 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:16.679 mean Phil's life will go on, and I guess the 0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:20.399 rest of us will will go on too. I know 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.240 a lot of the answers to these questions, obviously, because 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:25.439 it's not like this is the first time we're talking. 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:27.399 But I'll pretend to be the guy who you know, 0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.760 essentially belly's up next to you at a bar, or 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.800 sits next to you on your next airplane. Um, have 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:36.880 you heard from Phil or Team Phil? Yeah? I got 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:40.280 one text from him, and I would His tone was 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:45.800 he was displeased. Um, And he tried to sort of 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.560 go down that road of Oh, I thought this was 0:24:48.600 --> 0:24:52.560 a private conversation between you and I and I shut 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:55.520 that down really fast because and his heart wasn't really 0:24:55.520 --> 0:24:58.680 in it anyway, like he knows the truth. I don't 0:24:58.680 --> 0:25:01.399 know what he's gonna say going forward, but he knows 0:25:01.560 --> 0:25:04.040 that this is an on the record conversation and it 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.639 was for the book, and he never asked for any 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:09.600 of this to be to be private. And so, you know, 0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:12.040 you can spin a lot of things, but it's hard 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:14.840 to lie face to face. And the person that knows 0:25:14.960 --> 0:25:16.920 the truth right, and he can tell whatever he wants 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:18.960 to other people, but he and I know what happened, 0:25:19.359 --> 0:25:21.239 and there's no use trying to bullshit me because I 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.400 was there, and so he didn't try very hard. And 0:25:24.840 --> 0:25:27.720 it was a short, pithy text and I wrote back 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:31.680 and and that's been the sum total since the story dropped. 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.960 I did hear from one of his closest advisers, who 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:40.159 um for the person. He wrote me was great article. 0:25:40.560 --> 0:25:42.720 You know. This is in the text message, great article, 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:44.760 you know, basically thanks for laying all the cards on 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:47.760 the table. And then clearly he had he had talked 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:49.680 to Phil because then he called me. He's like, well, 0:25:49.720 --> 0:25:51.920 I'm mad because it feels mad and I don't even 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:53.520 know why I'm mad. I'm supposed to be mad. And 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:55.600 then we talked it out and he's like, you know, 0:25:56.119 --> 0:25:58.720 you make good points, and uh, it makes sense, and 0:25:58.760 --> 0:26:00.800 you know, I still think this is gonna help Phil. 0:26:00.920 --> 0:26:06.000 And so it was interesting, like Evan flow and within 0:26:06.160 --> 0:26:07.920 one day. But one of the people who he really 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:10.480 leaves on for counsel and he's a big factor in 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:15.159 his life. So, UM, I think you know, there's a 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:18.240 lot of there's been a lot of discomfort around Phil. 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.760 He's he's a maverick and he doesn't listen to anybody, 0:26:21.160 --> 0:26:25.159 maybe Amy sometimes, but you know, he's he has various 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.679 lawyers in the payroll. His his agent, Steve Lloyd, and 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.040 they've been together since college and they go in on 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:34.960 these investments. They're more like like brothers than they are. 0:26:35.440 --> 0:26:37.119 I don't think Steve Lloyd can tell Phil what to 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:40.119 do and um. And so even for the people in 0:26:40.160 --> 0:26:42.960 his inner circle, it's probably like being the chief of 0:26:43.000 --> 0:26:45.560 staff for Donald Trump when he was the president. Like 0:26:46.359 --> 0:26:48.439 you know, you you're you're there to give advice and 0:26:48.520 --> 0:26:51.640 counsel and you can try and push back to some degree, 0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:52.719 but all the way, look at ever, with the hell 0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:54.840 they want, you can't control it, and you're just trying 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:58.240 to pick up the pieces and um, so based on 0:26:58.440 --> 0:27:00.159 that one interaction I've had with this person, and he 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.040 was extremely close to Phil and helps handle his business 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:06.440 life and his affairs. It's like, I think there's some relief, 0:27:06.520 --> 0:27:09.400 like this was turning into a saga that was overshadowing 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:14.119 a lot of other things. It was certainly complicating, Um, 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:16.760 you know, Phil's future in the marketplace, because I have 0:27:16.920 --> 0:27:20.840 heard from a very very well connected source upon a 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:23.720 future beats that that workday is not going to renew 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:27.879 their contract with Phil um, which you know, these things happen, 0:27:28.119 --> 0:27:30.560 things change in the corporate world. But was that because 0:27:30.560 --> 0:27:32.760 of their discomfort with the Saudi Arabia stuff? It has 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:34.520 It would have to be a factor, right, I mean, 0:27:34.560 --> 0:27:37.160 we'll see when he shows that the masters what what 0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:39.960 logos are on his shirt, But that's definitely making the 0:27:40.040 --> 0:27:42.920 rounds and UM in golf circles that you know, that's 0:27:42.960 --> 0:27:46.800 one of his big endorsement partners. So um, you know 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:51.560 it's I respect Phil and that he puts his neck 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.280 on the chopping block and you talk about to me, 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:58.399 the classic example is the Ryder Cup, you know when 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:01.960 when he threw Tom Watson under Greyhound at Glenn Eagles. 0:28:03.000 --> 0:28:06.560 Certainly he was motivated by vengeance because Watson had benched him, 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:08.600 and they've been button heads all week about a variety 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.760 of things, and there was an element of just of 0:28:12.359 --> 0:28:17.200 of personal retribution. But I do believe and i've and 0:28:17.240 --> 0:28:19.280 it's all laid out in the book. And this is 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:22.160 Phil's point of view as well, because we were talking 0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.840 about in real time as it was happening that night 0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:30.600 that it was a calculated decision that the US Ryder 0:28:30.640 --> 0:28:32.800 Cup team had gotten their teeth kicked in over and 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:37.480 over and there was no cohesive plan from captain to captain. 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:40.680 There was no institutional support, and they were just making 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:43.560 it up. Willy nearly every two years, and that's that's 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:45.600 why they're always put in a position to fail. And 0:28:45.640 --> 0:28:47.920 he was tired of it and the only way to 0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:52.200 create the necessary momentum for change was to sacrifice Tom 0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:56.000 Watson on the altar. And I was in the room 0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:58.560 that night, in that press conference, and it was the 0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:02.880 most awkward thing probably my reporting career. And Tom Watson 0:29:02.880 --> 0:29:04.800 has his flaws as a captain, we all know that, 0:29:04.840 --> 0:29:07.760 but he's a proud man and it was hard to watch. 0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:11.320 But in the final analysis, that changed everything in the 0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:13.200 US has now one two out of three Ryder Cups, 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:16.080 and they're going to dominate the next decade. And everything 0:29:16.080 --> 0:29:18.560 that Phil pushed for has happened. There's more continuity in 0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:22.120 picking the captaincy, there's more buying from the players. The 0:29:22.120 --> 0:29:24.520 PGA of Americans opened up their wallet and help support 0:29:24.560 --> 0:29:27.040 their efforts in a whole variety of ways, which I'll 0:29:27.080 --> 0:29:30.200 detail the book. We have to go into now. And um, 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:33.360 you know Phil one and the benefit of every American 0:29:33.440 --> 0:29:35.680 Ryder Cup and and every golf and in this country 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.440 who wants the US to win the Ryder Cup. Um 0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:41.080 that he took a big risk, and he took a 0:29:41.120 --> 0:29:42.800 big hit. I mean there was a lot of people 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:49.320 who shredded Phil after that, and um, and deservedly, you know, 0:29:49.360 --> 0:29:51.320 it was it was not it was there was not 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:53.320 the most graceful way to handle it, but it created 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:56.560 the momentum that was needed for change. So and there's 0:29:56.600 --> 0:29:58.640 other examples in the way it feels sort of single 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:01.080 handedly taken on the U S yea, you know, I 0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:05.240 don't really agree with a lot of his stances, but 0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:10.200 he's seeing we're hitting a moving ball. Well yeah, and 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:14.320 again you know that was that was a reflection of 0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.520 he'd been at war with with with the U s 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:19.480 g A for years and that was and that's the 0:30:19.560 --> 0:30:21.680 set up at Shinnecock crossed the line again and he 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:24.120 wanted to highlight that. Now there's other ways to do it, 0:30:24.160 --> 0:30:29.520 but Phil makes decisions where he wants to maximize his impact. 0:30:30.000 --> 0:30:31.880 He did it at Glenn Eagles, he did at Shinnecock, 0:30:32.240 --> 0:30:34.800 he did it on the phone with me. And you 0:30:34.880 --> 0:30:37.560 might not always agree with the direction he wants to 0:30:37.600 --> 0:30:41.280 go or the methodology, but he's he sees himself as 0:30:41.280 --> 0:30:43.960 an agent of change, and he puts it out there 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:48.239 and in in a world of milk toast athletes who 0:30:48.280 --> 0:30:51.400 won't say anything controversial and they've got all the media 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:53.840 training and all they're thinking about is what their agent wants. 0:30:53.880 --> 0:30:55.880 I mean, I respect that Phil puts it out there 0:30:56.400 --> 0:31:01.040 and he will take the bullets. And uh so I 0:31:01.040 --> 0:31:03.440 don't agree with his his positions on a lot of things, 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.120 and you can you can Monday Morning quarterback the way 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:09.560 he goes about it. But uh you know, Phil is 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.320 not afraid to try and affect change, and he certainly 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:14.720 has done that in a variety of ways. On the 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:17.959 Saudi Arabia issue, it seems in the moment he's kind 0:31:17.960 --> 0:31:21.680 of set himself on fire. But uh, you know, he's 0:31:21.720 --> 0:31:25.440 getting a lot of what he wants and ultimately we'll 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:28.640 see how it plays out in the coming weeks. But uh, 0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:31.560 you know, again, the guy loves to start of the 0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:34.240 pot and that's good for those of us in the 0:31:34.280 --> 0:31:37.680 typing game. And as as if you follow golf, it's 0:31:37.680 --> 0:31:39.680 a lot more interesting when when Phils involved. I'll just 0:31:39.680 --> 0:31:42.680 put it. I'll leave it like that. Has he been suspended? 0:31:42.720 --> 0:31:46.840 Do you think? I don't think so, um, because that 0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:48.800 was sort of that would prove his point that the 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.560 tour is that there are a bunch of ogres and 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:55.160 that they don't have their best interests of the players 0:31:55.200 --> 0:31:58.560 at heart. Um. That would just give him more ammunition 0:31:58.600 --> 0:32:00.680 and he would be going to there are guys on 0:32:00.720 --> 0:32:02.800 the fence about the Saudie Golf League. He'd be like, look, 0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:05.960 we're trying to we're trying to make you know, make 0:32:06.000 --> 0:32:09.200 this better for everybody and and grow the game. And 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.040 look what they're doing to me for growing the game, 0:32:11.200 --> 0:32:13.400 And um, I think that would be too much what 0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:15.440 we would have heard from him. Again if that would 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:18.200 have been the case, Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I mean, 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:20.360 I think Jamon handsmen overmatched in a lot of this. 0:32:20.400 --> 0:32:22.160 I don't think you would make that mistake right now. 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:25.400 I mean, basically, when when a guy's dig is own 0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:28.000 his own grave, don't take the shovel away, like they'll 0:32:28.000 --> 0:32:29.760 just let him keep going. And so I think I 0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:32.560 think Jay's on the sideline, you know, just kind of 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.160 smiling ear to ear and trying to trying to let 0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:39.320 Phil do his thing. I mean, presumably like he's putting 0:32:39.320 --> 0:32:41.200 together a nice bouquet of flowers to send them to me, 0:32:41.640 --> 0:32:44.240 you know, maybe some chocolates. You know, I think that 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:48.800 j might might want to acknowledge, but I'm not gonna 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:51.480 wait for that for too long. Well, and you'd return 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:57.120 to sender obviously, um because but the um But which 0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.920 this brings up another point where I saw one come 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:02.440 it that came back. I can't tell if Alan is 0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:07.840 working for the tour here, are working for Phil? Which what? 0:33:08.720 --> 0:33:11.600 Or is there a third possibility in which you're actually 0:33:11.600 --> 0:33:14.360 not working for either, You're just reporting the truth and 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:18.239 letting people make their own decisions about what's going on here. Like, 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:21.960 what are we so far gone in the world of 0:33:22.440 --> 0:33:26.520 actual journalism that you in theory have to be working 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:29.160 for one side or the other. There is no actual 0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:35.120 There is no woodword Adstein anymore. Right, Well, it's honestly, 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:39.120 I think why I don't want to take this too far. 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:43.960 But Phil and I have some similarities in that I'm 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:48.000 okay if people are mad at me also, and sometimes 0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:52.480 I just want to put it out there and um 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:54.560 and yeah. So this this would be a case where 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:57.880 I don't care feels mad at me. I don't care 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.880 if Saudi Arabi is mad at me or Jay Monahan's 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:03.680 mad at me. Like the people I work for are 0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:06.160 are the readers. That's it. That's all I care about. 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:07.600 And I want to give them something that's going to 0:34:07.760 --> 0:34:12.120 educate them entertain them. And that's the only constituency that 0:34:12.160 --> 0:34:13.920 matters to me. I don't I don't care if I 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:17.120 show up a tournament and Bryce is mad at me 0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:19.640 because I just cost him a payday, or Dustin's piste 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:21.200 off because he doesn't get to go on the Prince's 0:34:21.239 --> 0:34:23.439 yacht and international waters and do whatever they do out 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:25.600 there when he when he's over in Saudi Arabia, Like 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:29.080 that's not my concern. Like my concern is telling the 0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:34.000 truth and reporting things honestly and and as you said, 0:34:34.080 --> 0:34:37.680 let the readers decide um. So I'm trying not to 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:41.279 editorialize too much. I mean, and that's that's the whole 0:34:41.280 --> 0:34:44.160 theme of the book as well. And I think people 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:46.480 may now think like this this is next jose to 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:48.239 like take down and phil that that's not the tone 0:34:48.239 --> 0:34:51.719 of the book. I mean, I think it's actually quite balanced, 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:54.160 where I just I just tell his story completely, and 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:57.719 there's there's a lot of stuff about Uh. This is 0:34:57.760 --> 0:34:59.719 written with a lot of affection because it feels a 0:34:59.760 --> 0:35:02.840 fun at it to be around and to cover and 0:35:02.920 --> 0:35:05.279 he's his heart's in the right place with the philanthropy 0:35:05.440 --> 0:35:08.880 and the random acts of kindness and the way he 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:12.839 takes players under his wing and really helps uh coach 0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.520 him up in a profound way, and all that's in 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.640 the book too. I Mean, what makes feel so interesting 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:22.719 is he's very complex and he has these warring impulses, 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:26.799 you know, he uh, and I just lay it all 0:35:26.800 --> 0:35:30.120 out there, and it's it's not a rip job, it's 0:35:30.120 --> 0:35:33.480 not a hagiography. It's just it's it's the story of 0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:38.960 one golfer who's led a really big life and so 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:41.680 all the great stuff in there and celebrate the victories 0:35:41.920 --> 0:35:45.360 and and all his good guy virtues. But there's a 0:35:45.360 --> 0:35:48.040 lot of messiness too, and there's a lot of complicated 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:51.239 relationships and that's all in there too, whether it's Billy Walters, 0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:54.560 or it's the bust up with Bones, or it's the 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:59.120 Saudi episode. And you know, I think I'm not telling 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.040 people how to feel about film Micholeson. They're gonnad and 0:36:01.040 --> 0:36:02.040 they're gonna side. And I think a lot of his 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:04.279 fans are gonna love me even more because there's a 0:36:04.320 --> 0:36:07.200 lot of great stuff in there, and and that does 0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:10.200 that is has a celebratory tone and and the people 0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:12.319 who have never been a phil fan will probably be 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:14.439 galvanized too because there's a lot of stuff in there 0:36:14.440 --> 0:36:19.000 that can be considered unflattering. And um so I think 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:20.600 that's great if if people don't know what my true 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:23.000 feelings are, what my motivations are, because that's not not 0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:26.320 what it's about. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing advocacy. 0:36:26.320 --> 0:36:28.040 Here are public relations. I mean, I'm trying to tell 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:35.440 an honest story, what a concept um and and thankfully 0:36:35.600 --> 0:36:37.920 you're doing it now for the fire Pit Collective, which 0:36:38.800 --> 0:36:42.040 you know, I've kept telling people we haven't even really 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:47.080 really released the true strategy of who we are and 0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:50.359 what we are in terms of docuseries, concepts, obviously seeing 0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:53.440 some of it around the grind, but we have others, 0:36:53.520 --> 0:36:56.600 and we have more. And I told people for the 0:36:56.680 --> 0:36:59.880 last you know, really for the last eight months, you 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:05.120 really been embedded in the Phil book. And this is 0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:08.839 you know, this is an excerpt from that. But you're 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:12.400 our our four hitter in our lineup is actually about 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:16.600 to just be unleashed into the world of truth. And 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:20.880 I feel like, you know, I've always been, if not 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:23.120 your number one fan, you know, because you have a 0:37:23.120 --> 0:37:26.520 lot of those I'm I'm in the conversation and not 0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:31.640 only for your writing and reporting, but just your general um, 0:37:31.680 --> 0:37:35.439 you know, guts for for your for your thick skin 0:37:35.480 --> 0:37:38.160 and ability to just you know, as I said, like 0:37:38.239 --> 0:37:41.480 Dan jan I'm not sure that I've seen many people 0:37:41.560 --> 0:37:45.520 have the kind of guts that you have, you know, 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:48.520 like Dan Jenkins had for so long, someone that we 0:37:48.640 --> 0:37:53.680 both obviously admired. Um. There's more excerpts coming before the 0:37:53.719 --> 0:37:57.280 actual book drop, in addition to a lot more features 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.759 and other pointed Um editor, I was on your part 0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:04.720 what what is what can we expect from this book 0:38:04.719 --> 0:38:09.319 between now and the actual release of the entire thing? Yeah, 0:38:09.360 --> 0:38:13.839 I mean it is a delicate dance. Um, how much 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.120 of the book do you do you give? You give 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:18.239 to people before it actually comes out, Like you don't 0:38:18.239 --> 0:38:19.880 want them to be so sated that like, well, I 0:38:19.880 --> 0:38:21.239 don't think I need to read the book because I 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:23.480 have a good sense of it. But you also want to. 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:26.200 You want to tease them and interest them and give 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:31.000 them enough of a taste that, um, they feel they're intrigued. 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.000 So you know, I have to lean on Simon Schuster 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:35.440 a little bit. They have a lot more experience than 0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:37.839 that that I do. Um, But certainly you and I 0:38:38.080 --> 0:38:41.160 are are fired up to do podcasts around the release, 0:38:41.239 --> 0:38:43.799 and there's there's any number of different ways we can go. 0:38:43.880 --> 0:38:46.920 I mean, I think what we dropped next is probably 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:48.759 gonna be I want to capture some of the fun 0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:51.640 and the zany nost um of I mean I have 0:38:51.760 --> 0:38:54.200 there's so many laugh out loud moments in this book 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:59.160 and so many unbelievable stories that are Um, you know 0:38:59.160 --> 0:39:02.480 it's an I roll. But and you can't decide is 0:39:03.040 --> 0:39:05.520 this guy a cartoon character? Is ridiculous or do I 0:39:05.560 --> 0:39:08.200 like him? He fun? I mean, it's all all mixed 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.160 into one. So I think maybe the next drop should 0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:13.279 be something like that, just so people don't have the 0:39:13.280 --> 0:39:16.000 expectation there's just gonna be one bombshell after another. But 0:39:16.040 --> 0:39:18.640 there those are. We have a few more we can 0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.040 drop around the release that I think are gonna people 0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:24.840 are gonna lose their mind over so um finding the 0:39:24.920 --> 0:39:29.960 right balance for for for readers that and um, And 0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:34.400 then you know, for sure Simon Schuster is their partners 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:36.040 with us and all of this, and so we have 0:39:36.080 --> 0:39:38.000 to do right by them, because if it's up to 0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:39.879 you and I, we probably do like an excerpt every 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:43.160 week and just give the whole book away by publication day. 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:45.240 And that would be great for the fire Pick Collective, 0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:47.719 but Simon Schuster be a little bummed. So you know, 0:39:47.760 --> 0:39:49.480 we gotta we gotta find the right balance. It's good 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:53.560 for everybody. But there's so much in this book and 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:56.160 I can't wait for people to read it like it's 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:57.840 actually it's tortured not to be able to put it 0:39:57.840 --> 0:40:01.640 out sooner. But it's just it's just as discussed earlier. 0:40:01.840 --> 0:40:04.040 You never would would drop a big excerpt just far 0:40:04.120 --> 0:40:08.000 out from publication day. But because the Saudi team is 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:10.640 accelerating and was, as you know, it was really coming 0:40:10.680 --> 0:40:12.879 to a boil. It was now or never, and so 0:40:13.520 --> 0:40:17.719 we chose now as opposed to never. But um, well, me, 0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:20.200 you and a few other folks will have some conversations, 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:22.799 probably when you're back from Scotland, and we'll map something out. 0:40:22.840 --> 0:40:26.200 But there's more stuff coming. That's all I can say. 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:29.200 I mean, you've read the book, Matt, it's it's there's 0:40:29.280 --> 0:40:32.440 there's some there's some big revelations, but there's also some 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:36.799 some grace notes and some wonderful little, um you know, 0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:40.879 intimate moments, and there's everything in between. So well, we'll 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:42.640 find the right balance. I don't know what that is 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:46.279 exactly at this moment, but we'll get there. I keep 0:40:46.320 --> 0:40:49.640 telling people it's the best of Phil and it's the 0:40:49.640 --> 0:40:52.680 worst to fill and both on and off the course. 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:55.240 So it's the best of his of his winds, and 0:40:55.520 --> 0:41:00.920 you know, highlight highlights of his losses, and then it's 0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:04.160 the best that he does, you know, in philanthropic you 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:10.759 know giving, you know, over tipping charity ways, and then 0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:14.000 it's all the other stuff. And that's you know the 0:41:14.120 --> 0:41:19.040 volatility of this of this man is is really to 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:22.200 your point, it's it's it's admits. It's why he is 0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:27.160 so interesting, you know, in your heart of hearts, Alan, 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:29.480 because this actually has come up a couple of times 0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:31.400 by people in the note do you think Phil is? 0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:34.600 Do you think Phil is okay? Like? Is he? I 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:37.840 mean no, and I mean I don't. I'm not saying 0:41:37.840 --> 0:41:40.040 this in a laugh like. I will tell you that 0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:44.839 I spoke to Phil recently in an interview on Tim Rosaford, 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:47.200 in which I approached him to see if he'd be 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:50.520 a part of this Tim rose Afford tribute to Tim's 0:41:50.680 --> 0:41:54.560 life and legacy of a man who you know, who 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:58.160 died at an incredibly young age of a horrific disease 0:41:58.200 --> 0:42:02.040 like Alzheimer's. And to Phil's credit, he agreed to to 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:06.080 talk to me. And then we get and then he says, 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:08.239 can we do it just audio or do we want 0:42:08.239 --> 0:42:10.040 to do zoom? And I said I'd love to have 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:12.040 it on zoom because then we can use social clips. 0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:14.440 And when he came on zoom, he was hugging the 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:18.840 PGA Championship trophy. So which was you know, at first 0:42:18.880 --> 0:42:21.520 glance it was funny. It was like, oh wow, okay, 0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:24.480 you know he's he's really running this bit all the 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:28.040 way through. But then I was like, but I'm calling 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:30.080 to talk to you about the life and legacy of 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.400 Tim rose Afford. And he stood. He stood there and 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:37.920 did the entire interview with the PGA Championship trophy in 0:42:38.000 --> 0:42:41.279 his you know, like hugging it to, you know, and 0:42:41.280 --> 0:42:44.960 we're talking about, you know, Tim rose Afford, who died 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:49.880 of Alzheimer's, And I'm like, what there is like this 0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:56.960 this there's this disconnect from sort of what is known 0:42:57.000 --> 0:43:01.120 to be reality, and he might have he might actually 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:05.920 be unplugged from that well for sure. I mean he's 0:43:06.239 --> 0:43:08.840 he's in a bubble inside a bubble. I mean the 0:43:08.840 --> 0:43:10.680 PJ towards a bubble. And when you're when you're a 0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:16.399 Hall of Famer and when you feel like he's, it's 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:18.960 interesting because in some ways he's very grounded, Like his 0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:24.040 closest friends are basically his college teammates, and they they're 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:27.040 just regular guys. I mean, Rob Mangini was one of 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:29.279 his closest friends. He sells title insurance and they play 0:43:29.320 --> 0:43:34.040 golf together, and he's he's kind of his he grounds 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.759 him and he talks trash and he's his sounding board 0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:39.080 flow of things. I mean Phil does have people. It's 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:41.799 not just all like Tiger. All his friends he had 0:43:41.800 --> 0:43:43.319 he had to pay to be his friends, right, Like 0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:45.640 they're all they all work for him in some capacity. 0:43:46.040 --> 0:43:47.680 I mean Phil does have a big circle of people 0:43:48.400 --> 0:43:50.160 different walks of life. And there's a lot of guys 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:52.600 from Pebble Beach who they played in the pro am 0:43:52.719 --> 0:43:54.360 with him, and they have the more for dinner that 0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:58.120 week and you know they're they're they're pretty solid, dude, 0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:03.160 so um. But yeah, I mean he's he's there's an 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:08.799 intensity about him, and there's also he's like an adrenaline junkie, right, 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:14.319 And I think that he's become so accustomed to the 0:44:14.360 --> 0:44:18.399 spotlight and to the wager and to the juice. He's 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:22.680 he just lives on juice, whatever that means. And it's 0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:25.080 almost like his nervous system is a little fried from 0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:28.000 that from thirty years in the spotlight and all the 0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:31.040 controversies and all the crack ups on the golf course 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:33.359 and all the adulation and all the fame and all 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:36.719 the money and you know it, it's it's not a 0:44:36.760 --> 0:44:38.960 normal existence. We know what it did to Tiger Woods. 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:41.840 I mean, he broke his body, He's been involved in scandals, 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:43.840 he's been to rehab at least twice that we know of. 0:44:45.160 --> 0:44:49.200 It's it's not a normal life. And I think Phil 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:52.160 has done a good job surrounding himself with pretty normal people. 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:55.239 You know, Amy's solid, and you know Bones was a 0:44:55.239 --> 0:44:59.400 trusty wingman for a long time. And but he's an 0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:01.480 interesting guy. I mean, I don't want to spoil too 0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:03.640 much of what's in the book, but I'll tell you 0:45:03.640 --> 0:45:06.640 one story that's pretty amazing, um and still makes me 0:45:06.719 --> 0:45:12.920 laugh and also cringe. So after after Amy gets breast 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:16.080 cancer and you know, there's a huge outpouring of love 0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:19.920 and support for her, and um, Tiger texts Phil and 0:45:19.960 --> 0:45:22.800 Tiger's father died of cancer as well, and he Tiger 0:45:22.840 --> 0:45:28.040 expresses his his support and best wishes and says something 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:31.040 the fact that you know, hopefully, someday we'll cure cancer 0:45:31.120 --> 0:45:34.120 and it'll stop, you know, taking away the people we love, 0:45:34.840 --> 0:45:38.200 and Phil thanks him and whatever, but he can't resist 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:41.200 and he writes, hopefully, someday they'll find a cure for 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:45.160 your hook. And it's just like I mean, it's a 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:49.280 funny line. And it's great that he's like tweaking Tiger, 0:45:50.040 --> 0:45:53.600 who's his lifelong nemesis, but it's not really the moment, 0:45:53.760 --> 0:45:55.920 you know, like Tiger is sending him a heartfelt text 0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:58.880 because Phil's wife is sick, and but he just he 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:04.279 can't help himself. And you know, we know the house 0:46:04.320 --> 0:46:07.720 always wins, right. Phil thinks he's smarter than the house, 0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:11.880 and that's a problem, and so he loves to have 0:46:11.920 --> 0:46:14.279 the last word. He loves for people to think he's 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:16.600 the smartest guy in the room. I think a lot 0:46:16.640 --> 0:46:20.560 of that informed why he was so brutally honest with me. Um, 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:23.480 he wanted me to know that he was working three 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:25.759 different angles and it was important for him that I 0:46:25.840 --> 0:46:29.440 knew that, and by virtue that all my readers would 0:46:29.480 --> 0:46:34.280 know that too. But um, you know, he he outsmarts 0:46:34.360 --> 0:46:37.280 himself regularly, and it was clearly one of those examples. 0:46:37.320 --> 0:46:43.480 So it's a fascinating question. Um, you know Phil as 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:48.120 a personality type, I mean someone who knows him very 0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:50.840 well and even in a professional capacity, you know, describing 0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:54.080 to me as a textbook sociopath. You know, someone who 0:46:54.080 --> 0:46:58.279 doesn't necessarily feel feelings, and as you're saying, you're you're 0:46:58.320 --> 0:47:01.759 doing this this rent story about Tim Roselford, and he's 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:04.280 kind of making a joke about having won the PG Championship, 0:47:04.320 --> 0:47:06.279 and it's kind of like his text of Tiger. I mean, 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:11.160 there's it's fair to wonder, Um, you know, does does 0:47:11.239 --> 0:47:15.120 Phil processed emotions the way most people do. It seems 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.960 like the answer is no. But um, you know, that's 0:47:17.960 --> 0:47:20.920 why it's part of what makes him so so fascinating, 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:26.839 because we can't quite figure him out. Well, we'll see 0:47:26.840 --> 0:47:30.480 what happens next, but I suspect that we're gonna get 0:47:30.520 --> 0:47:36.040 Phil the humility, Phil at the microphone doing what I 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:38.440 think one of the best things that he does, which 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:45.840 is falling his sword, apologize, you know, maybe claim claim victory. 0:47:45.880 --> 0:47:48.840 Like you say, get back out on the golf course, 0:47:49.600 --> 0:47:53.279 get back to hitting impressive shots. Maybe even when if 0:47:53.320 --> 0:47:54.920 it has to be on the Champions Tour, it has 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:57.359 to be on the Champions of Whatever it takes, He'll 0:47:57.400 --> 0:48:00.680 go back quist, end the trophy, thumbs up, signed a 0:48:00.680 --> 0:48:06.120 bunch of autographs over tip and and and and get 0:48:06.120 --> 0:48:10.400 back to being Phil. And hopefully for Phil, he hasn't 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.280 lost all of his you know, endorsement deals and hasn't 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:16.440 lost you know, the fan base that has propped him 0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:21.200 up for for decades. I'm sure he's lost, he's lost some, 0:48:21.400 --> 0:48:24.920 but you have to remember that that Twitter is such 0:48:24.960 --> 0:48:30.760 an echo chamber. And you know, I was my daughter 0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:33.680 had a playoff basketball game last night, which they won 0:48:33.960 --> 0:48:37.439 onto the quarterfinals, and um, you know, I was talking 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:38.960 to some people there who they know what I do 0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:42.759 for a living. They're not really hardcore golf fans. And 0:48:42.840 --> 0:48:45.319 so one of them said, yeah, I heard something that 0:48:45.360 --> 0:48:49.040 you wrote a story about Phil. You know, my my 0:48:49.120 --> 0:48:52.799 husband said there's something big controversy and it's I kind 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:54.360 of I said, well, it's a long story. It's like 0:48:54.440 --> 0:48:55.839 I don't even want to hear it. She's like, but 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:58.200 you know, I've always liked Phil and he's always getting 0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:01.720 into controversies, right, is this one different? Said kind of, 0:49:01.960 --> 0:49:05.080 you know, he's it's has more geo political overtones, but 0:49:05.800 --> 0:49:08.799 you know, not really just another controversy. And she's like, Wow, 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:10.840 that's just who he is. And you know that I 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:12.160 think that a lot of golf fans are not in 0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:14.440 the weeds on this stuff, that they're not even really 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:17.839 following it. Now is golf Twitter? You know, yes, we're 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:20.160 all hot and bothered about it. But the people who 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:22.919 love Phil, I think a lot of them are still 0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:25.759 gonna love him. And has he has he lost some fans, yes, 0:49:25.920 --> 0:49:28.800 but he's also his brand has always been as like 0:49:28.840 --> 0:49:32.080 an iconoclass and a renegade, right, and this is just 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:35.879 another example. So I think that you know, it may 0:49:35.920 --> 0:49:38.360 not damage him the way we think it will. You know, 0:49:38.360 --> 0:49:40.040 I've seen a lot of stuff on Twitter like Phil's 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:43.960 legacy is at stake. I mean, he's got six major championships, 0:49:43.960 --> 0:49:46.480 he has forty five PGA Tour victories. He's already in 0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:49.520 the Hall of Fame. Uh, he's been one of the 0:49:49.520 --> 0:49:52.440 most popular golfers the last quarter century. I don't think 0:49:52.440 --> 0:49:54.239 his legacies at stake. I mean this was this was 0:49:55.040 --> 0:49:58.480 this was a this was a gambit by him that 0:49:58.600 --> 0:50:00.560 may have may have blown up or maybe it's work, 0:50:00.600 --> 0:50:03.640 depends on your point of view. But um, I think 0:50:03.680 --> 0:50:06.200 I think Phil will survive this because he survives everything, 0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:09.399 and he'll find a way to spin it and it'll 0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:12.160 be a fascinating high wire performance like it always is. 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:15.040 And um, as you say, I'll get back on the 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:18.680 golf course and he'll probably win the Masters, So, um, 0:50:18.840 --> 0:50:21.040 you know, what will Phil do next? I mean, it's 0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:23.120 been it's been a cheesy ad campaign for a lot 0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:27.360 of our adult lives, but it's it endures because it's 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:30.240 it's so relevant. You just he's the ultimate wild card. 0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:36.719 He's utterly mercurial and unpredictable, and uh that's why, that's 0:50:36.760 --> 0:50:40.800 why he can be such a riveting performer. So uh, 0:50:41.440 --> 0:50:43.480 I can't wait to see when he you know, he's 0:50:43.480 --> 0:50:46.160 been up in the Yellowstone Club in Montana skiing and 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:50.200 refreshing Twitter, and I'll be as curious everybody else what 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:52.239 his next move is. It it's gonna be it's gonna 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:55.560 be fascinating. But um, I do think ultimately Phil is 0:50:55.560 --> 0:50:59.080 gonna survive this. He's just he just always marches forward. 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.120 Like I said, you did him a favor because the 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:04.880 one thing I don't think he could have survived is 0:51:04.920 --> 0:51:09.239 an actual deal with Saudi Arabia and Greg Norman. You know, 0:51:09.719 --> 0:51:13.920 he can, he can hit moving balls. He can you know, undermined, 0:51:14.200 --> 0:51:17.120 you know, an eight time major champion and Tom Watson. 0:51:17.880 --> 0:51:20.239 But you can't. You can't do that, And that, more 0:51:20.280 --> 0:51:23.040 than anything, is why, at the end of the day, 0:51:24.120 --> 0:51:26.759 I think in his heart of hearts. Whether Phil is 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:29.480 going to admit it or his lawyer did admit it, 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:34.080 he did him a favor, So Alan shipnuk. The truth matters. 0:51:35.320 --> 0:51:38.719 You delivered it. And uh, I can't wait, you know, 0:51:38.800 --> 0:51:40.680 beyond Phil, I can't wait to see what you do next. 0:51:40.680 --> 0:51:43.480 So thank you. I was a fun chat as always. 0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.760 And oh, by the way, Matt Janelle alive from San Andrew, Scotland. 0:51:47.880 --> 0:51:51.160 So it's, uh, you never know where this game is 0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:52.680 gonna take us. What is it? What time is it 0:51:52.719 --> 0:51:55.320 over there? It's like it's after midnight, right one thirty 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:58.640 three am, and I'm still buzzing off of a two 0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:08.120 hour interview with h the great great granddaughter Sheila Walker 0:52:09.920 --> 0:52:13.400 Is It is a descendant old Tom Morris. She is 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:16.319 still lives in the house he lived in, overlooking the 0:52:16.360 --> 0:52:20.040 eighteenth Green. She sat with us today, took us through 0:52:20.080 --> 0:52:24.399 her garden, sat with us for two hours, told incredible stories. 0:52:24.600 --> 0:52:29.280 Seventy seven years old. Um, I've challenged her putting contest 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:31.520 at the Himlas, which I have a feeling she's going 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.200 to take me up on before we leave here. Just 0:52:34.400 --> 0:52:41.239 one of the most delightful, impressive, articulate, amazing people I've 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:45.239 ever sat down with and don't tell my wife, but 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:47.359 I have a crush on a seventy seven year old woman. 0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:51.919 So it's like the movie Harold and Maud. I love it. Well, 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:56.040 I mean, let's just just I mean, that's all great stuff. 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:58.160 When Phil Nicholson comes to St. Andrew's to play the 0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:00.560 Open Championship this summer, she's probably gonna stand on her 0:53:00.600 --> 0:53:03.120 balcony and platform. She probably loves film Nicholson and I 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:06.600 don't think this is going to change that. So uh yeah, 0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:09.480 that's that's that's great. I love that. You know, we're 0:53:09.560 --> 0:53:11.879 sort of the two different polls of the golf world. 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.839 I'm your a couple of beats this morning. You're you're 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:17.760 in uh you're in St Andrew's. We got it covered 0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:21.160 for now. So I went into the I went into 0:53:21.200 --> 0:53:26.279 the home of the home of golf. It is it 0:53:26.440 --> 0:53:29.319 is actually talk about the bubbles and the bubbles. This 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:32.320 is like this is where you drilled down to and 0:53:33.160 --> 0:53:38.040 it was. It's incredible. So with that, um, thank you 0:53:38.080 --> 0:53:41.000 again and until next time, I'll catch you with your soon. Thanks. 0:53:41.760 --> 0:53:57.920 All right, see your parts. M fire, nobody here's getting tired. 0:54:00.040 --> 0:54:08.920 M settle down and settle in. The story is about 0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:19.160 to begin, the circles starting to take its shape, seats 0:54:19.160 --> 0:54:28.480 of field in the tired sun plans its escape. Everybody's 0:54:28.520 --> 0:54:35.520 got some glory, just wait unto unfold. Everybody's got some story. 0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:42.920 Just wait until be to the place, for that is here. 0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:51.719 All those smiles and all those tears, let them go. 0:54:55.360 --> 0:55:03.240 Put another log on the figh. M hmm. Nobody hears 0:55:03.239 --> 0:55:14.359 getting tired. Settle down and settle in. The story is 0:55:14.520 --> 0:55:24.120 about to begin. Tales were told of war and go 0:55:24.880 --> 0:55:33.799 lover is lost in a lifetimes dreams ours soul, And 0:55:33.880 --> 0:55:37.440 maybe you should stop in the sun at the wisdom 0:55:37.560 --> 0:55:41.719 in the air. Maybe you should pour your heart out. 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:49.200 We ain't go Hayway, find your mercy in the sound 0:55:53.120 --> 0:56:33.439 as the smoke gets pushed around and your soul. Put 0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:46.120 another log on the fire. Nobody hears getting tired. Settle 0:56:46.239 --> 0:56:57.880 down and settle the story. Here's about to begin the story. 0:56:58.040 --> 0:57:06.160 Here's about to begin. The story hears about to begin.