Speaker 1: You can't build league around sea less players. Just nobody's
Speaker 1: gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's comments made
Speaker 1: the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and Bryson had
Speaker 1: to change the heart, or maybe they've been they they
Speaker 1: were they always on the fence and it's helped nudge them,
Speaker 1: or maybe they had already signed and they somehow said
Speaker 1: screw it, man, this is terrible. This. You know, Phil
Speaker 1: talked me into it, and he was he was seduced
Speaker 1: me and fills my guy and this is how he
Speaker 1: feels like. Now, you know, this will all get revealed
Speaker 1: in time. We don't have those answers yet, but it
Speaker 1: does feel like, as of this moment, the Staudi Golf
Speaker 1: League is dead. And you know, Phil helped write the
Speaker 1: obituary for sure, put another logo fire Nobody here is
Speaker 1: get the time. Welcome to the fire Pit with Matt Chinella. Alright,
Speaker 1: so many of you know by now, a fire pit
Speaker 1: podcast is one story told by multiple voices or perspectives reflections.
Speaker 1: In this case, and like a few others, we're kind
Speaker 1: of referring to of them as fire drills, fire pit
Speaker 1: employees and special guests getting together talking about breaking news,
Speaker 1: see Phil's win at the p g A, or in
Speaker 1: this case, see Phil doing what Phil does best, which
Speaker 1: is be the smartest one in the room, or in
Speaker 1: this case, be the smartest one on the phone. The
Speaker 1: guy he was talking to on the other end of
Speaker 1: the phone was Alan Schipnuk, who joins me now to
Speaker 1: talk about what has become the story in golf for
Speaker 1: the last several days, which is the fact that Phil
Speaker 1: has is beneficially revealed two using the Saudi Golf League
Speaker 1: and this proposed breakaway league as leverage to try to
Speaker 1: get what you know, he wants or improvements to the
Speaker 1: general tour on behalf of the players or you know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Alan, what exactly was the motive here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's layered for sure, and I will say um, to
Speaker 1: some degree, I'm a little surprised that this has gone
Speaker 1: around the world the way it has, because I'm getting
Speaker 1: notifications from websites that are in Italian, French, Arabic, German,
Speaker 1: Portuguese people. It's the story has touched such a nerve.
Speaker 1: But to me it was kind of obvious all along
Speaker 1: that Phil was working both sides of the street and
Speaker 1: that he was trying to create this bidding war for
Speaker 1: services between the DJ Tour and on the Saudi Golf League.
Speaker 1: Now the tour can't pay him directly, but they could
Speaker 1: acquiesce to some of his longstanding demands, which they have done,
Speaker 1: and therefore they're paying him into directly. Um, I guess
Speaker 1: because he said the quiet parts out loud, that's what
Speaker 1: it was surprising, and in in a world of bullshit tery,
Speaker 1: for him to be so blunt and to just say
Speaker 1: it as raw and uncensored as you did it, it
Speaker 1: was pretty eye catching and it did reveal and again
Speaker 1: it depends how you look at you could respect the candor. Right.
Speaker 1: You know, other guys that go to Saudi Arabia and
Speaker 1: they talk about growing the game, which is a joke.
Speaker 1: The game is not growing in Saudi Arabia. It's a
Speaker 1: freaking desert and there's forty million people in two golf
Speaker 1: courses where the numbers are like, No one's trying to
Speaker 1: grow the games out Arabia. They're just going to there
Speaker 1: take a chat um. So to me, it was a
Speaker 1: little refreshing that Phil was honest, but it also it
Speaker 1: was sort of morally bankrupt for him to say, you know,
Speaker 1: I know they're bad actors and they've done all these
Speaker 1: horrible things, but I don't care because I'm just using
Speaker 1: as a as a bargaining chip, and that obviously rubs
Speaker 1: some people the wrong way. So you know, too, what
Speaker 1: what is Phil's endgame here? We're going to find out shortly,
Speaker 1: but ultimately, I think the reason he told me what
Speaker 1: he told me is he wanted his real true interfeelings
Speaker 1: to be revealed, and he wanted on record that he
Speaker 1: knows the Saudi's are bad actors and that it's just business.
Speaker 1: It's not personal. You know, this is just something he
Speaker 1: felt he had to do to make life better for
Speaker 1: everyone on the PGA tour, and it was important for him, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, for golf fans to know he's just gaining
Speaker 1: the system and yes, he is the smartest guy in
Speaker 1: the room. And but of course he did sort of
Speaker 1: outsmart himself on this one because he badly underestimated the
Speaker 1: kind of backlash that would be created. And now it
Speaker 1: looks like the whole, whole, the whole enterprise this crumbling.
Speaker 1: But again, maybe that's what Phil wanted. I mean, he
Speaker 1: said to me, I'm not sure even want to succeed
Speaker 1: you know, he's gotten a lot of concessions he wanted,
Speaker 1: and now this gives him an easy way to walk away.
Speaker 1: Because the money was getting so big and he was
Speaker 1: so deeply invested in the creation of the league and
Speaker 1: everything else. It was gonna be hard, and he's helped
Speaker 1: sell out to other players. It was gonna be hard
Speaker 1: for him not to take the plunge, right like he
Speaker 1: he'd sort of painted himself into a corner. So if
Speaker 1: it goes away, He's like, great, I could stay on
Speaker 1: the PGA tour. I got most of what I wanted.
Speaker 1: My reputation took a little hit, but you know it's
Speaker 1: not the first time, and his fans always seem to
Speaker 1: come back to him. So it's it's a it's a
Speaker 1: fascinating episode in a career full of controversy, and um
Speaker 1: people talking about how it's gonna affect his legacy will see.
Speaker 1: But you know, Phil, Phil has been down this road before.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's taking plenty of bullets and he just
Speaker 1: keeps going. But at this moment, this this feels like
Speaker 1: like he's had a big fork in the road. Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. I mean, I like to talk about how
Speaker 1: what incredible reporter you are. What a great interview you are?
Speaker 1: You You're a great interview also because one question and
Speaker 1: you're you, you answered, you have a lot of answers.
Speaker 1: Oh my bad, my bad, I just I just I
Speaker 1: didn't ahead like for different talking. Let's pull let's pull
Speaker 1: a few of these things apart for a second before
Speaker 1: we get to the end game and his legacy at all.
Speaker 1: I mean, did this story you know, I know you're
Speaker 1: not going to be the one to say, oh, you
Speaker 1: killed the Saudi golfleet, but did this story? Did the truth?
Speaker 1: Did fills truth in fills words? Actually put such a
Speaker 1: puncture in this, you know, dysfunctional tire that they can't
Speaker 1: it can't, it can't be driven anymore. It sure feels
Speaker 1: that way. You know, today on Sunday, February, you know,
Speaker 1: both dust and Johnson and Bryson de shambo Um put
Speaker 1: out statements highly unusual on a Sunday at a Marquee
Speaker 1: tournament where the tour is going to you know, essentially
Speaker 1: trumpet the words of of some players who are not
Speaker 1: in contention or are not factors in the tournament, right,
Speaker 1: but they um, they both renounced the Saudias and those
Speaker 1: were two of the biggest names linked to the whole thing. Now,
Speaker 1: everyone has been in constant negotiations and the only the
Speaker 1: only winners and all this are the lawyers with the
Speaker 1: billable hours right because there's and the agents. There's been
Speaker 1: so much dealmaking going on behind the scenes. So whether
Speaker 1: Dustin and Bryson were actually gonna jump or how close
Speaker 1: they were, not many people know that, but for sure
Speaker 1: they were. They were being wooed and they were thinking
Speaker 1: about it. We know that for certain. So, uh, you
Speaker 1: take them out of the mix and all the other
Speaker 1: players this week at the l A Open, who probably
Speaker 1: with some prodding from Jay Monahan got in front of
Speaker 1: microphone and said, you know, my leadnesses or my fealty
Speaker 1: my new favorite word, or with the PGA tour um,
Speaker 1: you know who's left. You know, Dustin Johnson is still
Speaker 1: could be a dominant force of the game. Bryson moves
Speaker 1: the needle like few others. They would be important pieces
Speaker 1: in this. Now you're left of what Ian Poulter and
Speaker 1: Lee Westwood, who are both heading to the Senior Tour soon.
Speaker 1: I mean, Phil still a star, but uh, you know
Speaker 1: the PG Championship was only top ten of the year
Speaker 1: and he knows what he has left in the tank.
Speaker 1: It can't be that much. You know, you needed Bryson,
Speaker 1: you needed Dustin's star power. You take that away, Jason
Speaker 1: co Crack. I mean, uh, some of these other you know,
Speaker 1: come on like so I think that unless unless the
Speaker 1: boys in Saudi Arabia have some real tricks up their
Speaker 1: sleeve and somehow, um, they're gonna get someone to change
Speaker 1: their mind. And I guess we all have a price,
Speaker 1: But it seems like the players who are now out,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just too much star power gone. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't build league around Sea list players.
Speaker 1: Just nobody's gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's
Speaker 1: comments made the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and
Speaker 1: Bryson had to change the heart, or maybe they've been
Speaker 1: they they were they always on the fence and this
Speaker 1: helped nudge them, or maybe they had already signed and
Speaker 1: they somehow said screw it, man, this is terrible. This.
Speaker 1: You know, Phil talked me into it, and he was
Speaker 1: he was seduced me and fills my guy and this
Speaker 1: is how he feels like now you know, this will
Speaker 1: all get revealed in time. We don't have those answers yet,
Speaker 1: but it does feel like as of this moment, the
Speaker 1: Stoudi Golf League is dead. And you know, Phil helped
Speaker 1: write the obituary for sure. So again we we we
Speaker 1: got a lot to get to here. And but let's
Speaker 1: go back now for a second and talk about the
Speaker 1: actual interview itself, about the actual phone call. You're doing
Speaker 1: an unauthorized biog fee on Phil Nicholson. He wasn't talking
Speaker 1: to you. A lot of people in his camp weren't
Speaker 1: talking to you. You were doing your due diligence and
Speaker 1: intrepid reporting for months, over a year your career essentially,
Speaker 1: How did how does the actual call come about? You know,
Speaker 1: I say this book has been thirty years in the making.
Speaker 1: You know, my first year cover on the tour that
Speaker 1: was Phil's second full season, and I've been tracking him
Speaker 1: the whole time. You know, he was instantly one of
Speaker 1: the most important players in golf and maybe the most interesting,
Speaker 1: certainly one of the most controversial. And I've always been
Speaker 1: drawn to Phil um. You know, I'm not one of
Speaker 1: his I'm not one of his guys. I mean, there
Speaker 1: are a lot of reporters who have played recreational rounds
Speaker 1: of golf with him, or they've gone out too long
Speaker 1: discursive dinners. You know I've done neither. Um you know,
Speaker 1: there's always been a little weariness between Phil and I.
Speaker 1: That's served me well because it makes me a little
Speaker 1: more clear eyed and I could see things the more perspective,
Speaker 1: and I can write about it a little more honestly,
Speaker 1: because I'm not trying to protect some quasi friendship like
Speaker 1: some of these other guys. But um, you know, I've
Speaker 1: always loved writing about Phil. And you love him or
Speaker 1: hate him, He's never boring. And I've been on the
Speaker 1: ground for as great as victories and his most crushing defeats,
Speaker 1: and I've had a lot of access to him through
Speaker 1: the years. I've been to his house, We've we've dined
Speaker 1: at his club. After you won the Claret jug I
Speaker 1: sneaked into the victory party and I was drinking champagne
Speaker 1: with him and Amy, Um, you know, charity of things
Speaker 1: that were not public. I crashed and we hung out
Speaker 1: in the manager's office at this target, munch on donuts.
Speaker 1: And so I've been around Phil a lot, and I
Speaker 1: have a lot of insights. So I didn't need him
Speaker 1: for this book. Of course, I wanted him. So I
Speaker 1: approached three separate times face to face, asked him if
Speaker 1: if you would sit for interviews, and he thought about it,
Speaker 1: and he went back and forth and ultimately he declined,
Speaker 1: which is his prerogative. Um, he was very worried. He
Speaker 1: didn't want it to appear as an author as it
Speaker 1: was a Thris biography, which you know I told this
Speaker 1: to Nicholas Palmer. Dozens of biographies have been written about
Speaker 1: those guys. They had they got no money, and they
Speaker 1: had no editorial control. They weren't authorized per se, but
Speaker 1: they still sat with the writers because they felt there
Speaker 1: was value in telling their side of every story and
Speaker 1: burnishing their own legend. And I encouraged Filed you the same.
Speaker 1: But um, you know, he didn't. He didn't go down
Speaker 1: that road, which was fine, But I guess in October
Speaker 1: of one, you know, he texted me and I just
Speaker 1: know it would have been November of twenty one. He
Speaker 1: texted me and said he you know, he wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about the tour and meteorites and n f t
Speaker 1: s and related issues and what could we have a conversation?
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, sure, I mean obviously those are those
Speaker 1: are not the sexiest topics. If if I made a
Speaker 1: list of what I wanted to interview feel about for
Speaker 1: the book, they wouldn't even be in the top ten.
Speaker 1: But he said he didn't want to talk about anything else.
Speaker 1: You just want to talk about those things. And I said, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: So he called me up and it was actually I
Speaker 1: was driving home from the Wishbone brawl. It was that Sunday,
Speaker 1: after the brawl, after Thanksgiving, and that's that's when we
Speaker 1: had this, this this conversation. And it's a really important point.
Speaker 1: I'm a biographer working on a book. He's asked to speak.
Speaker 1: Every single thing he says to me is going in
Speaker 1: the book unless we agree expressly that it's not. And
Speaker 1: if he wants to set some ground rules, and if
Speaker 1: you wanted to go off of the record, I would
Speaker 1: have pushed back really hard because this is my one
Speaker 1: chance to talk to him. But he never asked to
Speaker 1: go off the record. He never said it was on background.
Speaker 1: He never said this is just between me and you
Speaker 1: or tried to intimate anything like that. Um, whether in
Speaker 1: the text beforehand and we got on the phone, he
Speaker 1: just started talking at that point. It is an on
Speaker 1: the record interview with a biographer. There's that's not even
Speaker 1: in question. I think every other writer in the world
Speaker 1: would have the same attitude. And so he just starts
Speaker 1: talking and he says all these amazing things, and you know,
Speaker 1: he we had discussed it. You know, the timeline for
Speaker 1: the book is coming out in May, and as as
Speaker 1: this whole thing is played out, I really think Phil
Speaker 1: wanted his innermost feelings to be recorded, and he wanted,
Speaker 1: you know, me and therefore my readers to know how
Speaker 1: he really felt, which is he recognizes the Saudis are
Speaker 1: bad guys, and they're bad actors, and and there's a
Speaker 1: discomfort dealing with them, which he hasn't said publicly at all.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, this was a once in
Speaker 1: a lifetime opportunity to to reshape the PG tour and
Speaker 1: he couldn't let it go by. And so um again,
Speaker 1: you know he Phil rarely opens his mouth without an agenda,
Speaker 1: and he's always working in an edge in an angle,
Speaker 1: and so for him not to go on or off
Speaker 1: the record or do anything like that, I think that
Speaker 1: was a calculated decision because now he can go back
Speaker 1: to the guys in saut Arabia and say, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: I was misquoted, he was taking out context. He can
Speaker 1: tell him whatever he wants and probably to try and
Speaker 1: you know, to try and spin it his way. But
Speaker 1: he's now on record as not really ever being totally
Speaker 1: on board, and so if this whole thing goes away,
Speaker 1: he can be like, you know, I didn't want to
Speaker 1: go anyway, That's what I told Allen, and and I
Speaker 1: was just using it for leverage. And I won. You know,
Speaker 1: I got. I got the n f T platform for
Speaker 1: the tour. A hundred million dollars is getting poured back
Speaker 1: into the players. I won the PIP. He's like I won,
Speaker 1: you know, he he was able. It was it becomes
Speaker 1: revisionist history. And if it come out in May, you know,
Speaker 1: this whole thing would have been done and dusted, because
Speaker 1: everything we heard, and every indication from from players and
Speaker 1: agents I've talked to you was that there was gonna
Speaker 1: be announcement in March the week of the Players Championship
Speaker 1: that the Saudi Golfing was a go, that they'd signed
Speaker 1: twenty players, and this was happening. And and so if
Speaker 1: the book comes out two months later, everything is settled.
Speaker 1: But Phil still gets to tell golf fans with a
Speaker 1: wink like, Okay, you know I signed with him, but
Speaker 1: it was just business, you know, I I really I
Speaker 1: know what's going on here and um, because things were
Speaker 1: moving so fast with Saudi Arabia and the book is
Speaker 1: not coming out till May. You know, publishing is still
Speaker 1: an old fashioned industry. And believe it or not, there's
Speaker 1: a paper in a glue shortage in the publishing world
Speaker 1: and it's affecting the ability to print books. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know it's you think we're in the eighteenth century,
Speaker 1: but this is happening in two thousand twenty two. We
Speaker 1: all know about the dreaded supply chain issues and so
Speaker 1: there's not much flexibility in changing your dates because there's
Speaker 1: only a finite amount of paper and freaking glue to
Speaker 1: go around, and so, uh, there's not the ability to
Speaker 1: move the books released DATEA You could release a digital copy,
Speaker 1: you know, weeks or months ahead, but publisher don't want
Speaker 1: to do that once they want people to buy the books,
Speaker 1: you know, they um, and they're happy to sell the
Speaker 1: digital copies to other folks. But there's two different books
Speaker 1: buying publics, those who want to hold in their hand
Speaker 1: and those who want the digital copy and they don't
Speaker 1: want to lose the people who still like a physical book. So, um,
Speaker 1: knowing all that, and that this Saudi Arabia stuff, which
Speaker 1: is so juicy, was perishable because if in and the
Speaker 1: film makes his decision and everything goes public, the intrigue
Speaker 1: is lost and the a lot of what I had
Speaker 1: becomes kind of obsolete. And so, you know, and talking
Speaker 1: to you, Matt and other other the brain trust of
Speaker 1: the collective and going back to Simon Schuster, we just realized, like,
Speaker 1: now is the time. This is the hottest topic in golf.
Speaker 1: It's coming to a boil. It's time to drop what
Speaker 1: we have in the book and get out there now.
Speaker 1: And and so we did. Now, you know, the timing
Speaker 1: was probably not convenient for Phil, but my allegiance is
Speaker 1: not to fill it's to the readers. It's to the truth.
Speaker 1: And this was the moment. And so you would usually
Speaker 1: not do an excerpt, you know, three months ahead of publication.
Speaker 1: It's early for that, but it really didn't matter in
Speaker 1: this case. You know, I'm I'm not Bob Woodward, who's
Speaker 1: going to sit on something for a year that's that
Speaker 1: has tremendous news value. But he just wants to sell
Speaker 1: more books, like you know, around the time of publication
Speaker 1: like this. This was the moment to drop this because
Speaker 1: it advanced the conversation in a really interesting and important way.
Speaker 1: And so, um, that's what we did. I mean, one
Speaker 1: could argue that actually this was and you've touched upon
Speaker 1: it already, this was the time to drop it for
Speaker 1: film made. This was the perfect time for Phil because
Speaker 1: he's not he hasn't committed to that league, because the
Speaker 1: truth came out about how he actually knows the truth
Speaker 1: about who he's potentially getting in bed with in both
Speaker 1: Greg Norman and the Saudi Golf League, by the way,
Speaker 1: and and and he can still and look at what
Speaker 1: look at what has been accomplished with more pit money,
Speaker 1: more FedEx money, more players, championship money, no wrap around
Speaker 1: season eventually you know, um, so many you know, a
Speaker 1: baseline you know, dollar figure that's attributed to having a
Speaker 1: PGA talk. Various things have been put in place that
Speaker 1: if those were his ambitions, whatever percentage of what he
Speaker 1: wanted to have accomplished, it's got to be a pretty
Speaker 1: high percentage of what got done. Yeah, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that's how Fiel is gonna have to spin it is
Speaker 1: I won. I won. You know, I got the tour
Speaker 1: to do to make all these concessions. Other conversations are
Speaker 1: ongoing still, and he got out the fact that this
Speaker 1: tour sitting on eight million dollars. The last thing that's
Speaker 1: remaining are these individual rights and and control over a brand.
Speaker 1: And that's that's an uphill battle because even in the
Speaker 1: other sports leagues, the athletes don't have that. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're the NBA is selling n f T s of
Speaker 1: its players, but you know five basically five percent goes
Speaker 1: to the players. It's not they It's not like Lebron
Speaker 1: James owns his own likeness and can sells n f
Speaker 1: T s, which is you know what Phil wants. But
Speaker 1: if you were to get that, it would be a
Speaker 1: monumental shift in the sports landscape. Now, it's fine to
Speaker 1: ask for it and to push for it, but I
Speaker 1: don't think he's gonna get it. And so you know,
Speaker 1: he's already making he's already had some important victories. At
Speaker 1: least they are established an tea platform. And you know
Speaker 1: there's a hundred million dollars going to the players this
Speaker 1: year because of Phil, largely. If you want to if
Speaker 1: you want to, if you want to make it like that,
Speaker 1: you know the persons went up sixty million. They don't
Speaker 1: They basically have doubled the fete, the Players Championship person
Speaker 1: in four years it was eleven million and eighteen it's
Speaker 1: gonna be now it's gonna be twenty million. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: they got these spurious bonus programs like the That's been
Speaker 1: one of the frustrations with people in the golf world
Speaker 1: is that the PGA Tour has not done everything they
Speaker 1: can do for for the players. Like they're always holding
Speaker 1: back and they're always controlling. I mean, Phil's helped crack
Speaker 1: that open. There may be a player's union that comes
Speaker 1: out of all this. So he's gonna that's his only move.
Speaker 1: Now he's just to declare victories. Say I never wanted
Speaker 1: to go to Saudi Arabia. Look, I told Alan that
Speaker 1: back in November, and I got everything I can get
Speaker 1: from the tour and now I'm delighted to be to
Speaker 1: be back. And uh, I can't wait to tee up
Speaker 1: the Players Championship my favorite events. And you know Jamon
Speaker 1: had my boy and you know his life in the
Speaker 1: big leagues is every now and then you got out
Speaker 1: their little chin music and that's what I did, and
Speaker 1: let's play ball, you know, like that's that's what that's
Speaker 1: how Phil has to spend it. And you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe this is the best thing that could have happened
Speaker 1: for me because I think competitively, you know, he would
Speaker 1: have been fine missing out. He loves Pebble Beach, right,
Speaker 1: He's one up five times. His grandfather was a caddy there.
Speaker 1: There's there's some emotional attachment to that. But he doesn't
Speaker 1: have it with Tory Pines anymore because he hates to
Speaker 1: remodel and even skipping Tori doesn't live in Phoenix anymore.
Speaker 1: So even though that tournament it was important to him
Speaker 1: at various points and he won it early in his career,
Speaker 1: I think he's kind of over it with Phoenix. I
Speaker 1: don't think there's many places that that really move him
Speaker 1: week in week out on the tour. So I think
Speaker 1: he would been okay given up the PGA Tour schedule.
Speaker 1: But um, you know, if you signed, if you signed
Speaker 1: on the dog line with Staudy Golfin, you had to
Speaker 1: play every tournament. There was no flexibility. And we know that.
Speaker 1: You know, Phil's always loved to be a private contract,
Speaker 1: and he'll skip us open for his his high school graduation,
Speaker 1: and he will disappear for months at a time to
Speaker 1: go on trips with Amy, and he was gonna lose
Speaker 1: some of that flexibility. Not granted it's only you know,
Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen events they were talking about, but if
Speaker 1: they fall on anniversaries and and kids stuff, you know,
Speaker 1: you're kind of you're kind of aude luck. So, um,
Speaker 1: I think I think Phil, I think that was his
Speaker 1: motivation for wanting to go on record with me about
Speaker 1: his his what was in his heart of hearts and
Speaker 1: how about just a conscience? Yeah, well, I mean that's
Speaker 1: given him too much credit. Like I mean, but um,
Speaker 1: so I think the Phil and I always I got
Speaker 1: the sense when we spoke, because it was a lot
Speaker 1: of conversation, like he was kind of at peace. However
Speaker 1: played out, he was going to be fine, Like it
Speaker 1: was a win win for him. Either he was gonna
Speaker 1: get a monster pay day from the Saudias and take
Speaker 1: a little shrapnel but whatever, or he was gonna get
Speaker 1: his concession and stay on the tour and be happy
Speaker 1: that way. So, uh, you know, I think in the
Speaker 1: final analysis, that's probably what's gonna happen. Like, sure, he's had,
Speaker 1: he's taken he's taking some bullets this week, and there's
Speaker 1: been some bitchy things written about him on the internet.
Speaker 1: But Phil has been engulfed in controversy plenty of times,
Speaker 1: and I think one thing he knows, And in fact,
Speaker 1: Kim Bradley told me this in one of the interviews
Speaker 1: of the book was that, and you know, Keik has
Speaker 1: had a few little kerfuffles over there's nothing on the
Speaker 1: scale of Phil. But um, he said, when you're in
Speaker 1: the middle of it just feels like your world has
Speaker 1: ended and and you're never gonna escape this, and it's
Speaker 1: gonna define your whole life. And Phil's advice was like,
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal, dude, It's gonna be over
Speaker 1: in a day and no one's gonna remember it. And
Speaker 1: I think Phil probably still feels that way, Like right now,
Speaker 1: it's engulfed the golf world. And as you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: we get these notifications for pingbacks. I mean, hundreds and
Speaker 1: hundreds of websites around the world have cited our story
Speaker 1: and have piled on Phil. And you know, there's an
Speaker 1: intensity to this that's unusual. But you know next week
Speaker 1: there will be another story in golf, and I think
Speaker 1: Phil's just counting on that that he's he's skated so
Speaker 1: many times, and he's weathered so many storms, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I ultimately he'll still be standing when this
Speaker 1: one's over. Diminished in the eyes of some, but he's
Speaker 1: still the p G A championship winner, and he still
Speaker 1: has his tour pension, and he's he's still going to
Speaker 1: try and win that US Open this year. And I
Speaker 1: mean Phil's life will go on, and I guess the
Speaker 1: rest of us will will go on too. I know
Speaker 1: a lot of the answers to these questions, obviously, because
Speaker 1: it's not like this is the first time we're talking.
Speaker 1: But I'll pretend to be the guy who you know,
Speaker 1: essentially belly's up next to you at a bar, or
Speaker 1: sits next to you on your next airplane. Um, have
Speaker 1: you heard from Phil or Team Phil? Yeah? I got
Speaker 1: one text from him, and I would His tone was
Speaker 1: he was displeased. Um, And he tried to sort of
Speaker 1: go down that road of Oh, I thought this was
Speaker 1: a private conversation between you and I and I shut
Speaker 1: that down really fast because and his heart wasn't really
Speaker 1: in it anyway, like he knows the truth. I don't
Speaker 1: know what he's gonna say going forward, but he knows
Speaker 1: that this is an on the record conversation and it
Speaker 1: was for the book, and he never asked for any
Speaker 1: of this to be to be private. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: you can spin a lot of things, but it's hard
Speaker 1: to lie face to face. And the person that knows
Speaker 1: the truth right, and he can tell whatever he wants
Speaker 1: to other people, but he and I know what happened,
Speaker 1: and there's no use trying to bullshit me because I
Speaker 1: was there, and so he didn't try very hard. And
Speaker 1: it was a short, pithy text and I wrote back
Speaker 1: and and that's been the sum total since the story dropped.
Speaker 1: I did hear from one of his closest advisers, who
Speaker 1: um for the person. He wrote me was great article.
Speaker 1: You know. This is in the text message, great article,
Speaker 1: you know, basically thanks for laying all the cards on
Speaker 1: the table. And then clearly he had he had talked
Speaker 1: to Phil because then he called me. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm mad because it feels mad and I don't even
Speaker 1: know why I'm mad. I'm supposed to be mad. And
Speaker 1: then we talked it out and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you make good points, and uh, it makes sense, and
Speaker 1: you know, I still think this is gonna help Phil.
Speaker 1: And so it was interesting, like Evan flow and within
Speaker 1: one day. But one of the people who he really
Speaker 1: leaves on for counsel and he's a big factor in
Speaker 1: his life. So, UM, I think you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of there's been a lot of discomfort around Phil.
Speaker 1: He's he's a maverick and he doesn't listen to anybody,
Speaker 1: maybe Amy sometimes, but you know, he's he has various
Speaker 1: lawyers in the payroll. His his agent, Steve Lloyd, and
Speaker 1: they've been together since college and they go in on
Speaker 1: these investments. They're more like like brothers than they are.
Speaker 1: I don't think Steve Lloyd can tell Phil what to
Speaker 1: do and um. And so even for the people in
Speaker 1: his inner circle, it's probably like being the chief of
Speaker 1: staff for Donald Trump when he was the president. Like
Speaker 1: you know, you you're you're there to give advice and
Speaker 1: counsel and you can try and push back to some degree,
Speaker 1: but all the way, look at ever, with the hell
Speaker 1: they want, you can't control it, and you're just trying
Speaker 1: to pick up the pieces and um, so based on
Speaker 1: that one interaction I've had with this person, and he
Speaker 1: was extremely close to Phil and helps handle his business
Speaker 1: life and his affairs. It's like, I think there's some relief,
Speaker 1: like this was turning into a saga that was overshadowing
Speaker 1: a lot of other things. It was certainly complicating, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, Phil's future in the marketplace, because I have
Speaker 1: heard from a very very well connected source upon a
Speaker 1: future beats that that workday is not going to renew
Speaker 1: their contract with Phil um, which you know, these things happen,
Speaker 1: things change in the corporate world. But was that because
Speaker 1: of their discomfort with the Saudi Arabia stuff? It has
Speaker 1: It would have to be a factor, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll see when he shows that the masters what what
Speaker 1: logos are on his shirt, But that's definitely making the
Speaker 1: rounds and UM in golf circles that you know, that's
Speaker 1: one of his big endorsement partners. So um, you know
Speaker 1: it's I respect Phil and that he puts his neck
Speaker 1: on the chopping block and you talk about to me,
Speaker 1: the classic example is the Ryder Cup, you know when
Speaker 1: when he threw Tom Watson under Greyhound at Glenn Eagles.
Speaker 1: Certainly he was motivated by vengeance because Watson had benched him,
Speaker 1: and they've been button heads all week about a variety
Speaker 1: of things, and there was an element of just of
Speaker 1: of personal retribution. But I do believe and i've and
Speaker 1: it's all laid out in the book. And this is
Speaker 1: Phil's point of view as well, because we were talking
Speaker 1: about in real time as it was happening that night
Speaker 1: that it was a calculated decision that the US Ryder
Speaker 1: Cup team had gotten their teeth kicked in over and
Speaker 1: over and there was no cohesive plan from captain to captain.
Speaker 1: There was no institutional support, and they were just making
Speaker 1: it up. Willy nearly every two years, and that's that's
Speaker 1: why they're always put in a position to fail. And
Speaker 1: he was tired of it and the only way to
Speaker 1: create the necessary momentum for change was to sacrifice Tom
Speaker 1: Watson on the altar. And I was in the room
Speaker 1: that night, in that press conference, and it was the
Speaker 1: most awkward thing probably my reporting career. And Tom Watson
Speaker 1: has his flaws as a captain, we all know that,
Speaker 1: but he's a proud man and it was hard to watch.
Speaker 1: But in the final analysis, that changed everything in the
Speaker 1: US has now one two out of three Ryder Cups,
Speaker 1: and they're going to dominate the next decade. And everything
Speaker 1: that Phil pushed for has happened. There's more continuity in
Speaker 1: picking the captaincy, there's more buying from the players. The
Speaker 1: PGA of Americans opened up their wallet and help support
Speaker 1: their efforts in a whole variety of ways, which I'll
Speaker 1: detail the book. We have to go into now. And um,
Speaker 1: you know Phil one and the benefit of every American
Speaker 1: Ryder Cup and and every golf and in this country
Speaker 1: who wants the US to win the Ryder Cup. Um
Speaker 1: that he took a big risk, and he took a
Speaker 1: big hit. I mean there was a lot of people
Speaker 1: who shredded Phil after that, and um, and deservedly, you know,
Speaker 1: it was it was not it was there was not
Speaker 1: the most graceful way to handle it, but it created
Speaker 1: the momentum that was needed for change. So and there's
Speaker 1: other examples in the way it feels sort of single
Speaker 1: handedly taken on the U S yea, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't really agree with a lot of his stances, but
Speaker 1: he's seeing we're hitting a moving ball. Well yeah, and
Speaker 1: again you know that was that was a reflection of
Speaker 1: he'd been at war with with with the U s
Speaker 1: g A for years and that was and that's the
Speaker 1: set up at Shinnecock crossed the line again and he
Speaker 1: wanted to highlight that. Now there's other ways to do it,
Speaker 1: but Phil makes decisions where he wants to maximize his impact.
Speaker 1: He did it at Glenn Eagles, he did at Shinnecock,
Speaker 1: he did it on the phone with me. And you
Speaker 1: might not always agree with the direction he wants to
Speaker 1: go or the methodology, but he's he sees himself as
Speaker 1: an agent of change, and he puts it out there
Speaker 1: and in in a world of milk toast athletes who
Speaker 1: won't say anything controversial and they've got all the media
Speaker 1: training and all they're thinking about is what their agent wants.
Speaker 1: I mean, I respect that Phil puts it out there
Speaker 1: and he will take the bullets. And uh so I
Speaker 1: don't agree with his his positions on a lot of things,
Speaker 1: and you can you can Monday Morning quarterback the way
Speaker 1: he goes about it. But uh you know, Phil is
Speaker 1: not afraid to try and affect change, and he certainly
Speaker 1: has done that in a variety of ways. On the
Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia issue, it seems in the moment he's kind
Speaker 1: of set himself on fire. But uh, you know, he's
Speaker 1: getting a lot of what he wants and ultimately we'll
Speaker 1: see how it plays out in the coming weeks. But uh,
Speaker 1: you know, again, the guy loves to start of the
Speaker 1: pot and that's good for those of us in the
Speaker 1: typing game. And as as if you follow golf, it's
Speaker 1: a lot more interesting when when Phils involved. I'll just
Speaker 1: put it. I'll leave it like that. Has he been suspended?
Speaker 1: Do you think? I don't think so, um, because that
Speaker 1: was sort of that would prove his point that the
Speaker 1: tour is that there are a bunch of ogres and
Speaker 1: that they don't have their best interests of the players
Speaker 1: at heart. Um. That would just give him more ammunition
Speaker 1: and he would be going to there are guys on
Speaker 1: the fence about the Saudie Golf League. He'd be like, look,
Speaker 1: we're trying to we're trying to make you know, make
Speaker 1: this better for everybody and and grow the game. And
Speaker 1: look what they're doing to me for growing the game,
Speaker 1: And um, I think that would be too much what
Speaker 1: we would have heard from him. Again if that would
Speaker 1: have been the case, Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think Jamon handsmen overmatched in a lot of this.
Speaker 1: I don't think you would make that mistake right now.
Speaker 1: I mean, basically, when when a guy's dig is own
Speaker 1: his own grave, don't take the shovel away, like they'll
Speaker 1: just let him keep going. And so I think I
Speaker 1: think Jay's on the sideline, you know, just kind of
Speaker 1: smiling ear to ear and trying to trying to let
Speaker 1: Phil do his thing. I mean, presumably like he's putting
Speaker 1: together a nice bouquet of flowers to send them to me,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some chocolates. You know, I think that
Speaker 1: j might might want to acknowledge, but I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: wait for that for too long. Well, and you'd return
Speaker 1: to sender obviously, um because but the um But which
Speaker 1: this brings up another point where I saw one come
Speaker 1: it that came back. I can't tell if Alan is
Speaker 1: working for the tour here, are working for Phil? Which what?
Speaker 1: Or is there a third possibility in which you're actually
Speaker 1: not working for either, You're just reporting the truth and
Speaker 1: letting people make their own decisions about what's going on here. Like,
Speaker 1: what are we so far gone in the world of
Speaker 1: actual journalism that you in theory have to be working
Speaker 1: for one side or the other. There is no actual
Speaker 1: There is no woodword Adstein anymore. Right, Well, it's honestly,
Speaker 1: I think why I don't want to take this too far.
Speaker 1: But Phil and I have some similarities in that I'm
Speaker 1: okay if people are mad at me also, and sometimes
Speaker 1: I just want to put it out there and um
Speaker 1: and yeah. So this this would be a case where
Speaker 1: I don't care feels mad at me. I don't care
Speaker 1: if Saudi Arabi is mad at me or Jay Monahan's
Speaker 1: mad at me. Like the people I work for are
Speaker 1: are the readers. That's it. That's all I care about.
Speaker 1: And I want to give them something that's going to
Speaker 1: educate them entertain them. And that's the only constituency that
Speaker 1: matters to me. I don't I don't care if I
Speaker 1: show up a tournament and Bryce is mad at me
Speaker 1: because I just cost him a payday, or Dustin's piste
Speaker 1: off because he doesn't get to go on the Prince's
Speaker 1: yacht and international waters and do whatever they do out
Speaker 1: there when he when he's over in Saudi Arabia, Like
Speaker 1: that's not my concern. Like my concern is telling the
Speaker 1: truth and reporting things honestly and and as you said,
Speaker 1: let the readers decide um. So I'm trying not to
Speaker 1: editorialize too much. I mean, and that's that's the whole
Speaker 1: theme of the book as well. And I think people
Speaker 1: may now think like this this is next jose to
Speaker 1: like take down and phil that that's not the tone
Speaker 1: of the book. I mean, I think it's actually quite balanced,
Speaker 1: where I just I just tell his story completely, and
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of stuff about Uh. This is
Speaker 1: written with a lot of affection because it feels a
Speaker 1: fun at it to be around and to cover and
Speaker 1: he's his heart's in the right place with the philanthropy
Speaker 1: and the random acts of kindness and the way he
Speaker 1: takes players under his wing and really helps uh coach
Speaker 1: him up in a profound way, and all that's in
Speaker 1: the book too. I Mean, what makes feel so interesting
Speaker 1: is he's very complex and he has these warring impulses,
Speaker 1: you know, he uh, and I just lay it all
Speaker 1: out there, and it's it's not a rip job, it's
Speaker 1: not a hagiography. It's just it's it's the story of
Speaker 1: one golfer who's led a really big life and so
Speaker 1: all the great stuff in there and celebrate the victories
Speaker 1: and and all his good guy virtues. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of messiness too, and there's a lot of complicated
Speaker 1: relationships and that's all in there too, whether it's Billy Walters,
Speaker 1: or it's the bust up with Bones, or it's the
Speaker 1: Saudi episode. And you know, I think I'm not telling
Speaker 1: people how to feel about film Micholeson. They're gonnad and
Speaker 1: they're gonna side. And I think a lot of his
Speaker 1: fans are gonna love me even more because there's a
Speaker 1: lot of great stuff in there, and and that does
Speaker 1: that is has a celebratory tone and and the people
Speaker 1: who have never been a phil fan will probably be
Speaker 1: galvanized too because there's a lot of stuff in there
Speaker 1: that can be considered unflattering. And um so I think
Speaker 1: that's great if if people don't know what my true
Speaker 1: feelings are, what my motivations are, because that's not not
Speaker 1: what it's about. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing advocacy.
Speaker 1: Here are public relations. I mean, I'm trying to tell
Speaker 1: an honest story, what a concept um and and thankfully
Speaker 1: you're doing it now for the fire Pit Collective, which
Speaker 1: you know, I've kept telling people we haven't even really
Speaker 1: really released the true strategy of who we are and
Speaker 1: what we are in terms of docuseries, concepts, obviously seeing
Speaker 1: some of it around the grind, but we have others,
Speaker 1: and we have more. And I told people for the
Speaker 1: last you know, really for the last eight months, you
Speaker 1: really been embedded in the Phil book. And this is
Speaker 1: you know, this is an excerpt from that. But you're
Speaker 1: our our four hitter in our lineup is actually about
Speaker 1: to just be unleashed into the world of truth. And
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I've always been, if not
Speaker 1: your number one fan, you know, because you have a
Speaker 1: lot of those I'm I'm in the conversation and not
Speaker 1: only for your writing and reporting, but just your general um,
Speaker 1: you know, guts for for your for your thick skin
Speaker 1: and ability to just you know, as I said, like
Speaker 1: Dan jan I'm not sure that I've seen many people
Speaker 1: have the kind of guts that you have, you know,
Speaker 1: like Dan Jenkins had for so long, someone that we
Speaker 1: both obviously admired. Um. There's more excerpts coming before the
Speaker 1: actual book drop, in addition to a lot more features
Speaker 1: and other pointed Um editor, I was on your part
Speaker 1: what what is what can we expect from this book
Speaker 1: between now and the actual release of the entire thing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it is a delicate dance. Um, how much
Speaker 1: of the book do you do you give? You give
Speaker 1: to people before it actually comes out, Like you don't
Speaker 1: want them to be so sated that like, well, I
Speaker 1: don't think I need to read the book because I
Speaker 1: have a good sense of it. But you also want to.
Speaker 1: You want to tease them and interest them and give
Speaker 1: them enough of a taste that, um, they feel they're intrigued.
Speaker 1: So you know, I have to lean on Simon Schuster
Speaker 1: a little bit. They have a lot more experience than
Speaker 1: that that I do. Um, But certainly you and I
Speaker 1: are are fired up to do podcasts around the release,
Speaker 1: and there's there's any number of different ways we can go.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what we dropped next is probably
Speaker 1: gonna be I want to capture some of the fun
Speaker 1: and the zany nost um of I mean I have
Speaker 1: there's so many laugh out loud moments in this book
Speaker 1: and so many unbelievable stories that are Um, you know
Speaker 1: it's an I roll. But and you can't decide is
Speaker 1: this guy a cartoon character? Is ridiculous or do I
Speaker 1: like him? He fun? I mean, it's all all mixed
Speaker 1: into one. So I think maybe the next drop should
Speaker 1: be something like that, just so people don't have the
Speaker 1: expectation there's just gonna be one bombshell after another. But
Speaker 1: there those are. We have a few more we can
Speaker 1: drop around the release that I think are gonna people
Speaker 1: are gonna lose their mind over so um finding the
Speaker 1: right balance for for for readers that and um, And
Speaker 1: then you know, for sure Simon Schuster is their partners
Speaker 1: with us and all of this, and so we have
Speaker 1: to do right by them, because if it's up to
Speaker 1: you and I, we probably do like an excerpt every
Speaker 1: week and just give the whole book away by publication day.
Speaker 1: And that would be great for the fire Pick Collective,
Speaker 1: but Simon Schuster be a little bummed. So you know,
Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta find the right balance. It's good
Speaker 1: for everybody. But there's so much in this book and
Speaker 1: I can't wait for people to read it like it's
Speaker 1: actually it's tortured not to be able to put it
Speaker 1: out sooner. But it's just it's just as discussed earlier.
Speaker 1: You never would would drop a big excerpt just far
Speaker 1: out from publication day. But because the Saudi team is
Speaker 1: accelerating and was, as you know, it was really coming
Speaker 1: to a boil. It was now or never, and so
Speaker 1: we chose now as opposed to never. But um, well, me,
Speaker 1: you and a few other folks will have some conversations,
Speaker 1: probably when you're back from Scotland, and we'll map something out.
Speaker 1: But there's more stuff coming. That's all I can say.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've read the book, Matt, it's it's there's
Speaker 1: there's some there's some big revelations, but there's also some
Speaker 1: some grace notes and some wonderful little, um you know,
Speaker 1: intimate moments, and there's everything in between. So well, we'll
Speaker 1: find the right balance. I don't know what that is
Speaker 1: exactly at this moment, but we'll get there. I keep
Speaker 1: telling people it's the best of Phil and it's the
Speaker 1: worst to fill and both on and off the course.
Speaker 1: So it's the best of his of his winds, and
Speaker 1: you know, highlight highlights of his losses, and then it's
Speaker 1: the best that he does, you know, in philanthropic you
Speaker 1: know giving, you know, over tipping charity ways, and then
Speaker 1: it's all the other stuff. And that's you know the
Speaker 1: volatility of this of this man is is really to
Speaker 1: your point, it's it's it's admits. It's why he is
Speaker 1: so interesting, you know, in your heart of hearts, Alan,
Speaker 1: because this actually has come up a couple of times
Speaker 1: by people in the note do you think Phil is?
Speaker 1: Do you think Phil is okay? Like? Is he? I
Speaker 1: mean no, and I mean I don't. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: this in a laugh like. I will tell you that
Speaker 1: I spoke to Phil recently in an interview on Tim Rosaford,
Speaker 1: in which I approached him to see if he'd be
Speaker 1: a part of this Tim rose Afford tribute to Tim's
Speaker 1: life and legacy of a man who you know, who
Speaker 1: died at an incredibly young age of a horrific disease
Speaker 1: like Alzheimer's. And to Phil's credit, he agreed to to
Speaker 1: talk to me. And then we get and then he says,
Speaker 1: can we do it just audio or do we want
Speaker 1: to do zoom? And I said I'd love to have
Speaker 1: it on zoom because then we can use social clips.
Speaker 1: And when he came on zoom, he was hugging the
Speaker 1: PGA Championship trophy. So which was you know, at first
Speaker 1: glance it was funny. It was like, oh wow, okay,
Speaker 1: you know he's he's really running this bit all the
Speaker 1: way through. But then I was like, but I'm calling
Speaker 1: to talk to you about the life and legacy of
Speaker 1: Tim rose Afford. And he stood. He stood there and
Speaker 1: did the entire interview with the PGA Championship trophy in
Speaker 1: his you know, like hugging it to, you know, and
Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, Tim rose Afford, who died
Speaker 1: of Alzheimer's, And I'm like, what there is like this
Speaker 1: this there's this disconnect from sort of what is known
Speaker 1: to be reality, and he might have he might actually
Speaker 1: be unplugged from that well for sure. I mean he's
Speaker 1: he's in a bubble inside a bubble. I mean the
Speaker 1: PJ towards a bubble. And when you're when you're a
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer and when you feel like he's, it's
Speaker 1: interesting because in some ways he's very grounded, Like his
Speaker 1: closest friends are basically his college teammates, and they they're
Speaker 1: just regular guys. I mean, Rob Mangini was one of
Speaker 1: his closest friends. He sells title insurance and they play
Speaker 1: golf together, and he's he's kind of his he grounds
Speaker 1: him and he talks trash and he's his sounding board
Speaker 1: flow of things. I mean Phil does have people. It's
Speaker 1: not just all like Tiger. All his friends he had
Speaker 1: he had to pay to be his friends, right, Like
Speaker 1: they're all they all work for him in some capacity.
Speaker 1: I mean Phil does have a big circle of people
Speaker 1: different walks of life. And there's a lot of guys
Speaker 1: from Pebble Beach who they played in the pro am
Speaker 1: with him, and they have the more for dinner that
Speaker 1: week and you know they're they're they're pretty solid, dude,
Speaker 1: so um. But yeah, I mean he's he's there's an
Speaker 1: intensity about him, and there's also he's like an adrenaline junkie, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that he's become so accustomed to the
Speaker 1: spotlight and to the wager and to the juice. He's
Speaker 1: he just lives on juice, whatever that means. And it's
Speaker 1: almost like his nervous system is a little fried from
Speaker 1: that from thirty years in the spotlight and all the
Speaker 1: controversies and all the crack ups on the golf course
Speaker 1: and all the adulation and all the fame and all
Speaker 1: the money and you know it, it's it's not a
Speaker 1: normal existence. We know what it did to Tiger Woods.
Speaker 1: I mean, he broke his body, He's been involved in scandals,
Speaker 1: he's been to rehab at least twice that we know of.
Speaker 1: It's it's not a normal life. And I think Phil
Speaker 1: has done a good job surrounding himself with pretty normal people.
Speaker 1: You know, Amy's solid, and you know Bones was a
Speaker 1: trusty wingman for a long time. And but he's an
Speaker 1: interesting guy. I mean, I don't want to spoil too
Speaker 1: much of what's in the book, but I'll tell you
Speaker 1: one story that's pretty amazing, um and still makes me
Speaker 1: laugh and also cringe. So after after Amy gets breast
Speaker 1: cancer and you know, there's a huge outpouring of love
Speaker 1: and support for her, and um, Tiger texts Phil and
Speaker 1: Tiger's father died of cancer as well, and he Tiger
Speaker 1: expresses his his support and best wishes and says something
Speaker 1: the fact that you know, hopefully, someday we'll cure cancer
Speaker 1: and it'll stop, you know, taking away the people we love,
Speaker 1: and Phil thanks him and whatever, but he can't resist
Speaker 1: and he writes, hopefully, someday they'll find a cure for
Speaker 1: your hook. And it's just like I mean, it's a
Speaker 1: funny line. And it's great that he's like tweaking Tiger,
Speaker 1: who's his lifelong nemesis, but it's not really the moment,
Speaker 1: you know, like Tiger is sending him a heartfelt text
Speaker 1: because Phil's wife is sick, and but he just he
Speaker 1: can't help himself. And you know, we know the house
Speaker 1: always wins, right. Phil thinks he's smarter than the house,
Speaker 1: and that's a problem, and so he loves to have
Speaker 1: the last word. He loves for people to think he's
Speaker 1: the smartest guy in the room. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of that informed why he was so brutally honest with me. Um,
Speaker 1: he wanted me to know that he was working three
Speaker 1: different angles and it was important for him that I
Speaker 1: knew that, and by virtue that all my readers would
Speaker 1: know that too. But um, you know, he he outsmarts
Speaker 1: himself regularly, and it was clearly one of those examples.
Speaker 1: So it's a fascinating question. Um, you know Phil as
Speaker 1: a personality type, I mean someone who knows him very
Speaker 1: well and even in a professional capacity, you know, describing
Speaker 1: to me as a textbook sociopath. You know, someone who
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily feel feelings, and as you're saying, you're you're
Speaker 1: doing this this rent story about Tim Roselford, and he's
Speaker 1: kind of making a joke about having won the PG Championship,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like his text of Tiger. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's it's fair to wonder, Um, you know, does does
Speaker 1: Phil processed emotions the way most people do. It seems
Speaker 1: like the answer is no. But um, you know, that's
Speaker 1: why it's part of what makes him so so fascinating,
Speaker 1: because we can't quite figure him out. Well, we'll see
Speaker 1: what happens next, but I suspect that we're gonna get
Speaker 1: Phil the humility, Phil at the microphone doing what I
Speaker 1: think one of the best things that he does, which
Speaker 1: is falling his sword, apologize, you know, maybe claim claim victory.
Speaker 1: Like you say, get back out on the golf course,
Speaker 1: get back to hitting impressive shots. Maybe even when if
Speaker 1: it has to be on the Champions Tour, it has
Speaker 1: to be on the Champions of Whatever it takes, He'll
Speaker 1: go back quist, end the trophy, thumbs up, signed a
Speaker 1: bunch of autographs over tip and and and and get
Speaker 1: back to being Phil. And hopefully for Phil, he hasn't
Speaker 1: lost all of his you know, endorsement deals and hasn't
Speaker 1: lost you know, the fan base that has propped him
Speaker 1: up for for decades. I'm sure he's lost, he's lost some,
Speaker 1: but you have to remember that that Twitter is such
Speaker 1: an echo chamber. And you know, I was my daughter
Speaker 1: had a playoff basketball game last night, which they won
Speaker 1: onto the quarterfinals, and um, you know, I was talking
Speaker 1: to some people there who they know what I do
Speaker 1: for a living. They're not really hardcore golf fans. And
Speaker 1: so one of them said, yeah, I heard something that
Speaker 1: you wrote a story about Phil. You know, my my
Speaker 1: husband said there's something big controversy and it's I kind
Speaker 1: of I said, well, it's a long story. It's like
Speaker 1: I don't even want to hear it. She's like, but
Speaker 1: you know, I've always liked Phil and he's always getting
Speaker 1: into controversies, right, is this one different? Said kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, he's it's has more geo political overtones, but
Speaker 1: you know, not really just another controversy. And she's like, Wow,
Speaker 1: that's just who he is. And you know that I
Speaker 1: think that a lot of golf fans are not in
Speaker 1: the weeds on this stuff, that they're not even really
Speaker 1: following it. Now is golf Twitter? You know, yes, we're
Speaker 1: all hot and bothered about it. But the people who
Speaker 1: love Phil, I think a lot of them are still
Speaker 1: gonna love him. And has he has he lost some fans, yes,
Speaker 1: but he's also his brand has always been as like
Speaker 1: an iconoclass and a renegade, right, and this is just
Speaker 1: another example. So I think that you know, it may
Speaker 1: not damage him the way we think it will. You know,
Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of stuff on Twitter like Phil's
Speaker 1: legacy is at stake. I mean, he's got six major championships,
Speaker 1: he has forty five PGA Tour victories. He's already in
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. Uh, he's been one of the
Speaker 1: most popular golfers the last quarter century. I don't think
Speaker 1: his legacies at stake. I mean this was this was
Speaker 1: this was a this was a gambit by him that
Speaker 1: may have may have blown up or maybe it's work,
Speaker 1: depends on your point of view. But um, I think
Speaker 1: I think Phil will survive this because he survives everything,
Speaker 1: and he'll find a way to spin it and it'll
Speaker 1: be a fascinating high wire performance like it always is.
Speaker 1: And um, as you say, I'll get back on the
Speaker 1: golf course and he'll probably win the Masters, So, um,
Speaker 1: you know, what will Phil do next? I mean, it's
Speaker 1: been it's been a cheesy ad campaign for a lot
Speaker 1: of our adult lives, but it's it endures because it's
Speaker 1: it's so relevant. You just he's the ultimate wild card.
Speaker 1: He's utterly mercurial and unpredictable, and uh that's why, that's
Speaker 1: why he can be such a riveting performer. So uh,
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see when he you know, he's
Speaker 1: been up in the Yellowstone Club in Montana skiing and
Speaker 1: refreshing Twitter, and I'll be as curious everybody else what
Speaker 1: his next move is. It it's gonna be it's gonna
Speaker 1: be fascinating. But um, I do think ultimately Phil is
Speaker 1: gonna survive this. He's just he just always marches forward.
Speaker 1: Like I said, you did him a favor because the
Speaker 1: one thing I don't think he could have survived is
Speaker 1: an actual deal with Saudi Arabia and Greg Norman. You know,
Speaker 1: he can, he can hit moving balls. He can you know, undermined,
Speaker 1: you know, an eight time major champion and Tom Watson.
Speaker 1: But you can't. You can't do that, And that, more
Speaker 1: than anything, is why, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: I think in his heart of hearts. Whether Phil is
Speaker 1: going to admit it or his lawyer did admit it,
Speaker 1: he did him a favor, So Alan shipnuk. The truth matters.
Speaker 1: You delivered it. And uh, I can't wait, you know,
Speaker 1: beyond Phil, I can't wait to see what you do next.
Speaker 1: So thank you. I was a fun chat as always.
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, Matt Janelle alive from San Andrew, Scotland.
Speaker 1: So it's, uh, you never know where this game is
Speaker 1: gonna take us. What is it? What time is it
Speaker 1: over there? It's like it's after midnight, right one thirty
Speaker 1: three am, and I'm still buzzing off of a two
Speaker 1: hour interview with h the great great granddaughter Sheila Walker
Speaker 1: Is It is a descendant old Tom Morris. She is
Speaker 1: still lives in the house he lived in, overlooking the
Speaker 1: eighteenth Green. She sat with us today, took us through
Speaker 1: her garden, sat with us for two hours, told incredible stories.
Speaker 1: Seventy seven years old. Um, I've challenged her putting contest
Speaker 1: at the Himlas, which I have a feeling she's going
Speaker 1: to take me up on before we leave here. Just
Speaker 1: one of the most delightful, impressive, articulate, amazing people I've
Speaker 1: ever sat down with and don't tell my wife, but
Speaker 1: I have a crush on a seventy seven year old woman.
Speaker 1: So it's like the movie Harold and Maud. I love it. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, let's just just I mean, that's all great stuff.
Speaker 1: When Phil Nicholson comes to St. Andrew's to play the
Speaker 1: Open Championship this summer, she's probably gonna stand on her
Speaker 1: balcony and platform. She probably loves film Nicholson and I
Speaker 1: don't think this is going to change that. So uh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's great. I love that. You know, we're
Speaker 1: sort of the two different polls of the golf world.
Speaker 1: I'm your a couple of beats this morning. You're you're
Speaker 1: in uh you're in St Andrew's. We got it covered
Speaker 1: for now. So I went into the I went into
Speaker 1: the home of the home of golf. It is it
Speaker 1: is actually talk about the bubbles and the bubbles. This
Speaker 1: is like this is where you drilled down to and
Speaker 1: it was. It's incredible. So with that, um, thank you
Speaker 1: again and until next time, I'll catch you with your soon. Thanks.
Speaker 1: All right, see your parts. M fire, nobody here's getting tired.
Speaker 1: M settle down and settle in. The story is about
Speaker 1: to begin, the circles starting to take its shape, seats
Speaker 1: of field in the tired sun plans its escape. Everybody's
Speaker 1: got some glory, just wait unto unfold. Everybody's got some story.
Speaker 1: Just wait until be to the place, for that is here.
Speaker 1: All those smiles and all those tears, let them go.
Speaker 1: Put another log on the figh. M hmm. Nobody hears
Speaker 1: getting tired. Settle down and settle in. The story is
Speaker 1: about to begin. Tales were told of war and go
Speaker 1: lover is lost in a lifetimes dreams ours soul, And
Speaker 1: maybe you should stop in the sun at the wisdom
Speaker 1: in the air. Maybe you should pour your heart out.
Speaker 1: We ain't go Hayway, find your mercy in the sound
Speaker 1: as the smoke gets pushed around and your soul. Put
Speaker 1: another log on the fire. Nobody hears getting tired. Settle
Speaker 1: down and settle the story. Here's about to begin the story.
Speaker 1: Here's about to begin. The story hears about to begin.