1 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,039 Speaker 1: You can't build league around sea less players. Just nobody's 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's comments made 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and Bryson had 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: to change the heart, or maybe they've been they they 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: were they always on the fence and it's helped nudge them, 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: or maybe they had already signed and they somehow said 7 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: screw it, man, this is terrible. This. You know, Phil 8 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: talked me into it, and he was he was seduced 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: me and fills my guy and this is how he 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: feels like. Now, you know, this will all get revealed 11 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: in time. We don't have those answers yet, but it 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: does feel like, as of this moment, the Staudi Golf 13 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: League is dead. And you know, Phil helped write the 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: obituary for sure, put another logo fire Nobody here is 15 00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: get the time. Welcome to the fire Pit with Matt Chinella. Alright, 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: so many of you know by now, a fire pit 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: podcast is one story told by multiple voices or perspectives reflections. 18 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: In this case, and like a few others, we're kind 19 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: of referring to of them as fire drills, fire pit 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: employees and special guests getting together talking about breaking news, 21 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: see Phil's win at the p g A, or in 22 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: this case, see Phil doing what Phil does best, which 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: is be the smartest one in the room, or in 24 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: this case, be the smartest one on the phone. The 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: guy he was talking to on the other end of 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: the phone was Alan Schipnuk, who joins me now to 27 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 1: talk about what has become the story in golf for 28 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: the last several days, which is the fact that Phil 29 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: has is beneficially revealed two using the Saudi Golf League 30 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: and this proposed breakaway league as leverage to try to 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: get what you know, he wants or improvements to the 32 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: general tour on behalf of the players or you know. 33 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: I don't know, Alan, what exactly was the motive here. Yeah, 34 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: it's layered for sure, and I will say um, to 35 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: some degree, I'm a little surprised that this has gone 36 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: around the world the way it has, because I'm getting 37 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: notifications from websites that are in Italian, French, Arabic, German, 38 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: Portuguese people. It's the story has touched such a nerve. 39 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 1: But to me it was kind of obvious all along 40 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: that Phil was working both sides of the street and 41 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: that he was trying to create this bidding war for 42 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 1: services between the DJ Tour and on the Saudi Golf League. 43 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: Now the tour can't pay him directly, but they could 44 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: acquiesce to some of his longstanding demands, which they have done, 45 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: and therefore they're paying him into directly. Um, I guess 46 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: because he said the quiet parts out loud, that's what 47 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: it was surprising, and in in a world of bullshit tery, 48 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: for him to be so blunt and to just say 49 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: it as raw and uncensored as you did it, it 50 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: was pretty eye catching and it did reveal and again 51 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: it depends how you look at you could respect the candor. Right. 52 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: You know, other guys that go to Saudi Arabia and 53 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: they talk about growing the game, which is a joke. 54 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: The game is not growing in Saudi Arabia. It's a 55 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: freaking desert and there's forty million people in two golf 56 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: courses where the numbers are like, No one's trying to 57 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: grow the games out Arabia. They're just going to there 58 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: take a chat um. So to me, it was a 59 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: little refreshing that Phil was honest, but it also it 60 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: was sort of morally bankrupt for him to say, you know, 61 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: I know they're bad actors and they've done all these 62 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: horrible things, but I don't care because I'm just using 63 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: as a as a bargaining chip, and that obviously rubs 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: some people the wrong way. So you know, too, what 65 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: what is Phil's endgame here? We're going to find out shortly, 66 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: but ultimately, I think the reason he told me what 67 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: he told me is he wanted his real true interfeelings 68 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: to be revealed, and he wanted on record that he 69 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: knows the Saudi's are bad actors and that it's just business. 70 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: It's not personal. You know, this is just something he 71 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: felt he had to do to make life better for 72 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: everyone on the PGA tour, and it was important for him, uh, 73 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, for golf fans to know he's just gaining 74 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: the system and yes, he is the smartest guy in 75 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: the room. And but of course he did sort of 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: outsmart himself on this one because he badly underestimated the 77 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: kind of backlash that would be created. And now it 78 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: looks like the whole, whole, the whole enterprise this crumbling. 79 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: But again, maybe that's what Phil wanted. I mean, he 80 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: said to me, I'm not sure even want to succeed 81 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, he's gotten a lot of concessions he wanted, 82 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and now this gives him an easy way to walk away. 83 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: Because the money was getting so big and he was 84 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 1: so deeply invested in the creation of the league and 85 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: everything else. It was gonna be hard, and he's helped 86 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: sell out to other players. It was gonna be hard 87 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: for him not to take the plunge, right like he 88 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: he'd sort of painted himself into a corner. So if 89 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: it goes away, He's like, great, I could stay on 90 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 1: the PGA tour. I got most of what I wanted. 91 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,840 Speaker 1: My reputation took a little hit, but you know it's 92 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: not the first time, and his fans always seem to 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: come back to him. So it's it's a it's a 94 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: fascinating episode in a career full of controversy, and um 95 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: people talking about how it's gonna affect his legacy will see. 96 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: But you know, Phil, Phil has been down this road before. 97 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: I mean, he's taking plenty of bullets and he just 98 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: keeps going. But at this moment, this this feels like 99 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: like he's had a big fork in the road. Oh 100 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: my gosh. I mean, I like to talk about how 101 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: what incredible reporter you are. What a great interview you are? 102 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: You You're a great interview also because one question and 103 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: you're you, you answered, you have a lot of answers. 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: Oh my bad, my bad, I just I just I 105 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: didn't ahead like for different talking. Let's pull let's pull 106 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: a few of these things apart for a second before 107 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: we get to the end game and his legacy at all. 108 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: I mean, did this story you know, I know you're 109 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: not going to be the one to say, oh, you 110 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: killed the Saudi golfleet, but did this story? Did the truth? 111 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: Did fills truth in fills words? Actually put such a 112 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: puncture in this, you know, dysfunctional tire that they can't 113 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: it can't, it can't be driven anymore. It sure feels 114 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: that way. You know, today on Sunday, February, you know, 115 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: both dust and Johnson and Bryson de shambo Um put 116 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: out statements highly unusual on a Sunday at a Marquee 117 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: tournament where the tour is going to you know, essentially 118 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: trumpet the words of of some players who are not 119 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: in contention or are not factors in the tournament, right, 120 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: but they um, they both renounced the Saudias and those 121 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: were two of the biggest names linked to the whole thing. Now, 122 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: everyone has been in constant negotiations and the only the 123 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: only winners and all this are the lawyers with the 124 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: billable hours right because there's and the agents. There's been 125 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,679 Speaker 1: so much dealmaking going on behind the scenes. So whether 126 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: Dustin and Bryson were actually gonna jump or how close 127 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: they were, not many people know that, but for sure 128 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: they were. They were being wooed and they were thinking 129 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: about it. We know that for certain. So, uh, you 130 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: take them out of the mix and all the other 131 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: players this week at the l A Open, who probably 132 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: with some prodding from Jay Monahan got in front of 133 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: microphone and said, you know, my leadnesses or my fealty 134 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: my new favorite word, or with the PGA tour um, 135 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: you know who's left. You know, Dustin Johnson is still 136 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: could be a dominant force of the game. Bryson moves 137 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: the needle like few others. They would be important pieces 138 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: in this. Now you're left of what Ian Poulter and 139 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: Lee Westwood, who are both heading to the Senior Tour soon. 140 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: I mean, Phil still a star, but uh, you know 141 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: the PG Championship was only top ten of the year 142 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 1: and he knows what he has left in the tank. 143 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: It can't be that much. You know, you needed Bryson, 144 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: you needed Dustin's star power. You take that away, Jason 145 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: co Crack. I mean, uh, some of these other you know, 146 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: come on like so I think that unless unless the 147 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: boys in Saudi Arabia have some real tricks up their 148 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: sleeve and somehow, um, they're gonna get someone to change 149 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: their mind. And I guess we all have a price, 150 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 1: But it seems like the players who are now out, 151 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: it's just it's just too much star power gone. I mean, 152 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: you can't. You can't build league around Sea list players. 153 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: Just nobody's gonna care. And uh, you know, whether Phil's 154 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: comments made the whole thing so toxic that Dustin and 155 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: Bryson had to change the heart, or maybe they've been 156 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: they they were they always on the fence and this 157 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: helped nudge them, or maybe they had already signed and 158 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: they somehow said screw it, man, this is terrible. This. 159 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: You know, Phil talked me into it, and he was 160 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: he was seduced me and fills my guy and this 161 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: is how he feels like now you know, this will 162 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: all get revealed in time. We don't have those answers yet, 163 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,439 Speaker 1: but it does feel like as of this moment, the 164 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: Stoudi Golf League is dead. And you know, Phil helped 165 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: write the obituary for sure. So again we we we 166 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: got a lot to get to here. And but let's 167 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: go back now for a second and talk about the 168 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: actual interview itself, about the actual phone call. You're doing 169 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: an unauthorized biog fee on Phil Nicholson. He wasn't talking 170 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: to you. A lot of people in his camp weren't 171 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: talking to you. You were doing your due diligence and 172 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: intrepid reporting for months, over a year your career essentially, 173 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: How did how does the actual call come about? You know, 174 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: I say this book has been thirty years in the making. 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: You know, my first year cover on the tour that 176 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: was Phil's second full season, and I've been tracking him 177 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: the whole time. You know, he was instantly one of 178 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: the most important players in golf and maybe the most interesting, 179 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: certainly one of the most controversial. And I've always been 180 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: drawn to Phil um. You know, I'm not one of 181 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: his I'm not one of his guys. I mean, there 182 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: are a lot of reporters who have played recreational rounds 183 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: of golf with him, or they've gone out too long 184 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: discursive dinners. You know I've done neither. Um you know, 185 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: there's always been a little weariness between Phil and I. 186 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: That's served me well because it makes me a little 187 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: more clear eyed and I could see things the more perspective, 188 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: and I can write about it a little more honestly, 189 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: because I'm not trying to protect some quasi friendship like 190 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: some of these other guys. But um, you know, I've 191 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: always loved writing about Phil. And you love him or 192 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: hate him, He's never boring. And I've been on the 193 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 1: ground for as great as victories and his most crushing defeats, 194 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: and I've had a lot of access to him through 195 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: the years. I've been to his house, We've we've dined 196 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: at his club. After you won the Claret jug I 197 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: sneaked into the victory party and I was drinking champagne 198 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: with him and Amy, Um, you know, charity of things 199 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: that were not public. I crashed and we hung out 200 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: in the manager's office at this target, munch on donuts. 201 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: And so I've been around Phil a lot, and I 202 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: have a lot of insights. So I didn't need him 203 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: for this book. Of course, I wanted him. So I 204 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: approached three separate times face to face, asked him if 205 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: if you would sit for interviews, and he thought about it, 206 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: and he went back and forth and ultimately he declined, 207 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: which is his prerogative. Um, he was very worried. He 208 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: didn't want it to appear as an author as it 209 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: was a Thris biography, which you know I told this 210 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: to Nicholas Palmer. Dozens of biographies have been written about 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: those guys. They had they got no money, and they 212 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: had no editorial control. They weren't authorized per se, but 213 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: they still sat with the writers because they felt there 214 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: was value in telling their side of every story and 215 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: burnishing their own legend. And I encouraged Filed you the same. 216 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: But um, you know, he didn't. He didn't go down 217 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: that road, which was fine, But I guess in October 218 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: of one, you know, he texted me and I just 219 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: know it would have been November of twenty one. He 220 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: texted me and said he you know, he wanted to 221 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,559 Speaker 1: talk about the tour and meteorites and n f t 222 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:44,079 Speaker 1: s and related issues and what could we have a conversation? 223 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: I said, yeah, sure, I mean obviously those are those 224 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: are not the sexiest topics. If if I made a 225 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: list of what I wanted to interview feel about for 226 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: the book, they wouldn't even be in the top ten. 227 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: But he said he didn't want to talk about anything else. 228 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: You just want to talk about those things. And I said, okay, fine, 229 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: So he called me up and it was actually I 230 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: was driving home from the Wishbone brawl. It was that Sunday, 231 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: after the brawl, after Thanksgiving, and that's that's when we 232 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: had this, this this conversation. And it's a really important point. 233 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: I'm a biographer working on a book. He's asked to speak. 234 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: Every single thing he says to me is going in 235 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 1: the book unless we agree expressly that it's not. And 236 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: if he wants to set some ground rules, and if 237 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: you wanted to go off of the record, I would 238 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: have pushed back really hard because this is my one 239 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: chance to talk to him. But he never asked to 240 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: go off the record. He never said it was on background. 241 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,679 Speaker 1: He never said this is just between me and you 242 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: or tried to intimate anything like that. Um, whether in 243 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,599 Speaker 1: the text beforehand and we got on the phone, he 244 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: just started talking at that point. It is an on 245 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: the record interview with a biographer. There's that's not even 246 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 1: in question. I think every other writer in the world 247 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: would have the same attitude. And so he just starts 248 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: talking and he says all these amazing things, and you know, 249 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: he we had discussed it. You know, the timeline for 250 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: the book is coming out in May, and as as 251 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: this whole thing is played out, I really think Phil 252 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: wanted his innermost feelings to be recorded, and he wanted, 253 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: you know, me and therefore my readers to know how 254 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: he really felt, which is he recognizes the Saudis are 255 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: bad guys, and they're bad actors, and and there's a 256 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: discomfort dealing with them, which he hasn't said publicly at all. 257 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time, this was a once in 258 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: a lifetime opportunity to to reshape the PG tour and 259 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: he couldn't let it go by. And so um again, 260 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: you know he Phil rarely opens his mouth without an agenda, 261 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: and he's always working in an edge in an angle, 262 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: and so for him not to go on or off 263 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 1: the record or do anything like that, I think that 264 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: was a calculated decision because now he can go back 265 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: to the guys in saut Arabia and say, you know, oh, 266 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: I was misquoted, he was taking out context. He can 267 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: tell him whatever he wants and probably to try and 268 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: you know, to try and spin it his way. But 269 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: he's now on record as not really ever being totally 270 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: on board, and so if this whole thing goes away, 271 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: he can be like, you know, I didn't want to 272 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: go anyway, That's what I told Allen, and and I 273 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: was just using it for leverage. And I won. You know, 274 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: I got. I got the n f T platform for 275 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: the tour. A hundred million dollars is getting poured back 276 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: into the players. I won the PIP. He's like I won, 277 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, he he was able. It was it becomes 278 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: revisionist history. And if it come out in May, you know, 279 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: this whole thing would have been done and dusted, because 280 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: everything we heard, and every indication from from players and 281 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: agents I've talked to you was that there was gonna 282 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: be announcement in March the week of the Players Championship 283 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: that the Saudi Golfing was a go, that they'd signed 284 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: twenty players, and this was happening. And and so if 285 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: the book comes out two months later, everything is settled. 286 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: But Phil still gets to tell golf fans with a 287 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: wink like, Okay, you know I signed with him, but 288 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: it was just business, you know, I I really I 289 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: know what's going on here and um, because things were 290 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: moving so fast with Saudi Arabia and the book is 291 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: not coming out till May. You know, publishing is still 292 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: an old fashioned industry. And believe it or not, there's 293 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: a paper in a glue shortage in the publishing world 294 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: and it's affecting the ability to print books. I mean, 295 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: you know it's you think we're in the eighteenth century, 296 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: but this is happening in two thousand twenty two. We 297 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: all know about the dreaded supply chain issues and so 298 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: there's not much flexibility in changing your dates because there's 299 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: only a finite amount of paper and freaking glue to 300 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: go around, and so, uh, there's not the ability to 301 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: move the books released DATEA You could release a digital copy, 302 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: you know, weeks or months ahead, but publisher don't want 303 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: to do that once they want people to buy the books, 304 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: you know, they um, and they're happy to sell the 305 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: digital copies to other folks. But there's two different books 306 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: buying publics, those who want to hold in their hand 307 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: and those who want the digital copy and they don't 308 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 1: want to lose the people who still like a physical book. So, um, 309 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: knowing all that, and that this Saudi Arabia stuff, which 310 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: is so juicy, was perishable because if in and the 311 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: film makes his decision and everything goes public, the intrigue 312 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: is lost and the a lot of what I had 313 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: becomes kind of obsolete. And so, you know, and talking 314 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: to you, Matt and other other the brain trust of 315 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: the collective and going back to Simon Schuster, we just realized, like, 316 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: now is the time. This is the hottest topic in golf. 317 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: It's coming to a boil. It's time to drop what 318 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: we have in the book and get out there now. 319 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: And and so we did. Now, you know, the timing 320 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: was probably not convenient for Phil, but my allegiance is 321 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 1: not to fill it's to the readers. It's to the truth. 322 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: And this was the moment. And so you would usually 323 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: not do an excerpt, you know, three months ahead of publication. 324 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: It's early for that, but it really didn't matter in 325 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: this case. You know, I'm I'm not Bob Woodward, who's 326 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: going to sit on something for a year that's that 327 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: has tremendous news value. But he just wants to sell 328 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: more books, like you know, around the time of publication 329 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: like this. This was the moment to drop this because 330 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: it advanced the conversation in a really interesting and important way. 331 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: And so, um, that's what we did. I mean, one 332 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: could argue that actually this was and you've touched upon 333 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: it already, this was the time to drop it for 334 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 1: film made. This was the perfect time for Phil because 335 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: he's not he hasn't committed to that league, because the 336 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: truth came out about how he actually knows the truth 337 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: about who he's potentially getting in bed with in both 338 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: Greg Norman and the Saudi Golf League, by the way, 339 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,719 Speaker 1: and and and he can still and look at what 340 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: look at what has been accomplished with more pit money, 341 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: more FedEx money, more players, championship money, no wrap around 342 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: season eventually you know, um, so many you know, a 343 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: baseline you know, dollar figure that's attributed to having a 344 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: PGA talk. Various things have been put in place that 345 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: if those were his ambitions, whatever percentage of what he 346 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: wanted to have accomplished, it's got to be a pretty 347 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: high percentage of what got done. Yeah, I mean, that's 348 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: that's how Fiel is gonna have to spin it is 349 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: I won. I won. You know, I got the tour 350 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: to do to make all these concessions. Other conversations are 351 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: ongoing still, and he got out the fact that this 352 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: tour sitting on eight million dollars. The last thing that's 353 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: remaining are these individual rights and and control over a brand. 354 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: And that's that's an uphill battle because even in the 355 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 1: other sports leagues, the athletes don't have that. I mean, 356 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: they're the NBA is selling n f T s of 357 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: its players, but you know five basically five percent goes 358 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: to the players. It's not they It's not like Lebron 359 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: James owns his own likeness and can sells n f 360 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: T s, which is you know what Phil wants. But 361 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: if you were to get that, it would be a 362 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: monumental shift in the sports landscape. Now, it's fine to 363 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: ask for it and to push for it, but I 364 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: don't think he's gonna get it. And so you know, 365 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: he's already making he's already had some important victories. At 366 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 1: least they are established an tea platform. And you know 367 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 1: there's a hundred million dollars going to the players this 368 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: year because of Phil, largely. If you want to if 369 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: you want to, if you want to make it like that, 370 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: you know the persons went up sixty million. They don't 371 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: They basically have doubled the fete, the Players Championship person 372 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: in four years it was eleven million and eighteen it's 373 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: gonna be now it's gonna be twenty million. Um. You know, 374 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: they got these spurious bonus programs like the That's been 375 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: one of the frustrations with people in the golf world 376 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: is that the PGA Tour has not done everything they 377 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: can do for for the players. Like they're always holding 378 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: back and they're always controlling. I mean, Phil's helped crack 379 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: that open. There may be a player's union that comes 380 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: out of all this. So he's gonna that's his only move. 381 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: Now he's just to declare victories. Say I never wanted 382 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: to go to Saudi Arabia. Look, I told Alan that 383 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: back in November, and I got everything I can get 384 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 1: from the tour and now I'm delighted to be to 385 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: be back. And uh, I can't wait to tee up 386 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: the Players Championship my favorite events. And you know Jamon 387 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: had my boy and you know his life in the 388 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: big leagues is every now and then you got out 389 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: their little chin music and that's what I did, and 390 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: let's play ball, you know, like that's that's what that's 391 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: how Phil has to spend it. And you know, yeah, 392 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 1: maybe this is the best thing that could have happened 393 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: for me because I think competitively, you know, he would 394 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: have been fine missing out. He loves Pebble Beach, right, 395 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: He's one up five times. His grandfather was a caddy there. 396 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: There's there's some emotional attachment to that. But he doesn't 397 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: have it with Tory Pines anymore because he hates to 398 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: remodel and even skipping Tori doesn't live in Phoenix anymore. 399 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: So even though that tournament it was important to him 400 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: at various points and he won it early in his career, 401 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: I think he's kind of over it with Phoenix. I 402 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: don't think there's many places that that really move him 403 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: week in week out on the tour. So I think 404 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: he would been okay given up the PGA Tour schedule. 405 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: But um, you know, if you signed, if you signed 406 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: on the dog line with Staudy Golfin, you had to 407 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: play every tournament. There was no flexibility. And we know that. 408 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 1: You know, Phil's always loved to be a private contract, 409 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: and he'll skip us open for his his high school graduation, 410 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: and he will disappear for months at a time to 411 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: go on trips with Amy, and he was gonna lose 412 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: some of that flexibility. Not granted it's only you know, 413 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: thirteen or fourteen events they were talking about, but if 414 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: they fall on anniversaries and and kids stuff, you know, 415 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: you're kind of you're kind of aude luck. So, um, 416 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: I think I think Phil, I think that was his 417 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: motivation for wanting to go on record with me about 418 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: his his what was in his heart of hearts and 419 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: how about just a conscience? Yeah, well, I mean that's 420 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: given him too much credit. Like I mean, but um, 421 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: so I think the Phil and I always I got 422 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: the sense when we spoke, because it was a lot 423 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: of conversation, like he was kind of at peace. However 424 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: played out, he was going to be fine, Like it 425 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: was a win win for him. Either he was gonna 426 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: get a monster pay day from the Saudias and take 427 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: a little shrapnel but whatever, or he was gonna get 428 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: his concession and stay on the tour and be happy 429 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: that way. So, uh, you know, I think in the 430 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: final analysis, that's probably what's gonna happen. Like, sure, he's had, 431 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: he's taken he's taking some bullets this week, and there's 432 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: been some bitchy things written about him on the internet. 433 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: But Phil has been engulfed in controversy plenty of times, 434 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: and I think one thing he knows, And in fact, 435 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: Kim Bradley told me this in one of the interviews 436 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: of the book was that, and you know, Keik has 437 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: had a few little kerfuffles over there's nothing on the 438 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: scale of Phil. But um, he said, when you're in 439 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: the middle of it just feels like your world has 440 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: ended and and you're never gonna escape this, and it's 441 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: gonna define your whole life. And Phil's advice was like, 442 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: it's not a big deal, dude, It's gonna be over 443 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: in a day and no one's gonna remember it. And 444 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: I think Phil probably still feels that way, Like right now, 445 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: it's engulfed the golf world. And as you know, I mean, 446 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: we get these notifications for pingbacks. I mean, hundreds and 447 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of websites around the world have cited our story 448 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: and have piled on Phil. And you know, there's an 449 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: intensity to this that's unusual. But you know next week 450 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: there will be another story in golf, and I think 451 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: Phil's just counting on that that he's he's skated so 452 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: many times, and he's weathered so many storms, and uh, 453 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: you know, I ultimately he'll still be standing when this 454 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: one's over. Diminished in the eyes of some, but he's 455 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: still the p G A championship winner, and he still 456 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: has his tour pension, and he's he's still going to 457 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: try and win that US Open this year. And I 458 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: mean Phil's life will go on, and I guess the 459 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: rest of us will will go on too. I know 460 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the answers to these questions, obviously, because 461 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: it's not like this is the first time we're talking. 462 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: But I'll pretend to be the guy who you know, 463 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: essentially belly's up next to you at a bar, or 464 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: sits next to you on your next airplane. Um, have 465 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: you heard from Phil or Team Phil? Yeah? I got 466 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: one text from him, and I would His tone was 467 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: he was displeased. Um, And he tried to sort of 468 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: go down that road of Oh, I thought this was 469 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: a private conversation between you and I and I shut 470 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: that down really fast because and his heart wasn't really 471 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: in it anyway, like he knows the truth. I don't 472 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: know what he's gonna say going forward, but he knows 473 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: that this is an on the record conversation and it 474 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: was for the book, and he never asked for any 475 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 1: of this to be to be private. And so, you know, 476 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: you can spin a lot of things, but it's hard 477 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: to lie face to face. And the person that knows 478 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: the truth right, and he can tell whatever he wants 479 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: to other people, but he and I know what happened, 480 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,239 Speaker 1: and there's no use trying to bullshit me because I 481 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: was there, and so he didn't try very hard. And 482 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: it was a short, pithy text and I wrote back 483 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: and and that's been the sum total since the story dropped. 484 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: I did hear from one of his closest advisers, who 485 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: um for the person. He wrote me was great article. 486 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: You know. This is in the text message, great article, 487 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: you know, basically thanks for laying all the cards on 488 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: the table. And then clearly he had he had talked 489 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: to Phil because then he called me. He's like, well, 490 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm mad because it feels mad and I don't even 491 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 1: know why I'm mad. I'm supposed to be mad. And 492 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: then we talked it out and he's like, you know, 493 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: you make good points, and uh, it makes sense, and 494 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, I still think this is gonna help Phil. 495 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: And so it was interesting, like Evan flow and within 496 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: one day. But one of the people who he really 497 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 1: leaves on for counsel and he's a big factor in 498 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: his life. So, UM, I think you know, there's a 499 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: lot of there's been a lot of discomfort around Phil. 500 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: He's he's a maverick and he doesn't listen to anybody, 501 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: maybe Amy sometimes, but you know, he's he has various 502 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: lawyers in the payroll. His his agent, Steve Lloyd, and 503 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: they've been together since college and they go in on 504 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: these investments. They're more like like brothers than they are. 505 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: I don't think Steve Lloyd can tell Phil what to 506 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: do and um. And so even for the people in 507 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: his inner circle, it's probably like being the chief of 508 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: staff for Donald Trump when he was the president. Like 509 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: you know, you you're you're there to give advice and 510 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: counsel and you can try and push back to some degree, 511 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: but all the way, look at ever, with the hell 512 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: they want, you can't control it, and you're just trying 513 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: to pick up the pieces and um, so based on 514 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: that one interaction I've had with this person, and he 515 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: was extremely close to Phil and helps handle his business 516 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: life and his affairs. It's like, I think there's some relief, 517 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: like this was turning into a saga that was overshadowing 518 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: a lot of other things. It was certainly complicating, Um, 519 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: you know, Phil's future in the marketplace, because I have 520 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: heard from a very very well connected source upon a 521 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: future beats that that workday is not going to renew 522 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: their contract with Phil um, which you know, these things happen, 523 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: things change in the corporate world. But was that because 524 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: of their discomfort with the Saudi Arabia stuff? It has 525 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: It would have to be a factor, right, I mean, 526 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: we'll see when he shows that the masters what what 527 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: logos are on his shirt, But that's definitely making the 528 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: rounds and UM in golf circles that you know, that's 529 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: one of his big endorsement partners. So um, you know 530 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: it's I respect Phil and that he puts his neck 531 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: on the chopping block and you talk about to me, 532 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: the classic example is the Ryder Cup, you know when 533 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: when he threw Tom Watson under Greyhound at Glenn Eagles. 534 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: Certainly he was motivated by vengeance because Watson had benched him, 535 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: and they've been button heads all week about a variety 536 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: of things, and there was an element of just of 537 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: of personal retribution. But I do believe and i've and 538 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: it's all laid out in the book. And this is 539 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: Phil's point of view as well, because we were talking 540 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: about in real time as it was happening that night 541 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: that it was a calculated decision that the US Ryder 542 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: Cup team had gotten their teeth kicked in over and 543 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: over and there was no cohesive plan from captain to captain. 544 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: There was no institutional support, and they were just making 545 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: it up. Willy nearly every two years, and that's that's 546 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: why they're always put in a position to fail. And 547 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: he was tired of it and the only way to 548 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: create the necessary momentum for change was to sacrifice Tom 549 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: Watson on the altar. And I was in the room 550 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: that night, in that press conference, and it was the 551 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: most awkward thing probably my reporting career. And Tom Watson 552 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: has his flaws as a captain, we all know that, 553 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: but he's a proud man and it was hard to watch. 554 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: But in the final analysis, that changed everything in the 555 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: US has now one two out of three Ryder Cups, 556 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: and they're going to dominate the next decade. And everything 557 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: that Phil pushed for has happened. There's more continuity in 558 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: picking the captaincy, there's more buying from the players. The 559 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: PGA of Americans opened up their wallet and help support 560 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: their efforts in a whole variety of ways, which I'll 561 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: detail the book. We have to go into now. And um, 562 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: you know Phil one and the benefit of every American 563 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: Ryder Cup and and every golf and in this country 564 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: who wants the US to win the Ryder Cup. Um 565 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: that he took a big risk, and he took a 566 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: big hit. I mean there was a lot of people 567 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: who shredded Phil after that, and um, and deservedly, you know, 568 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: it was it was not it was there was not 569 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: the most graceful way to handle it, but it created 570 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: the momentum that was needed for change. So and there's 571 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: other examples in the way it feels sort of single 572 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: handedly taken on the U S yea, you know, I 573 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: don't really agree with a lot of his stances, but 574 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: he's seeing we're hitting a moving ball. Well yeah, and 575 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: again you know that was that was a reflection of 576 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: he'd been at war with with with the U s 577 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: g A for years and that was and that's the 578 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: set up at Shinnecock crossed the line again and he 579 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: wanted to highlight that. Now there's other ways to do it, 580 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: but Phil makes decisions where he wants to maximize his impact. 581 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: He did it at Glenn Eagles, he did at Shinnecock, 582 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: he did it on the phone with me. And you 583 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: might not always agree with the direction he wants to 584 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: go or the methodology, but he's he sees himself as 585 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: an agent of change, and he puts it out there 586 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,239 Speaker 1: and in in a world of milk toast athletes who 587 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: won't say anything controversial and they've got all the media 588 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: training and all they're thinking about is what their agent wants. 589 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I respect that Phil puts it out there 590 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: and he will take the bullets. And uh so I 591 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: don't agree with his his positions on a lot of things, 592 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: and you can you can Monday Morning quarterback the way 593 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: he goes about it. But uh you know, Phil is 594 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: not afraid to try and affect change, and he certainly 595 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: has done that in a variety of ways. On the 596 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia issue, it seems in the moment he's kind 597 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: of set himself on fire. But uh, you know, he's 598 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: getting a lot of what he wants and ultimately we'll 599 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: see how it plays out in the coming weeks. But uh, 600 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, again, the guy loves to start of the 601 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: pot and that's good for those of us in the 602 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: typing game. And as as if you follow golf, it's 603 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: a lot more interesting when when Phils involved. I'll just 604 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: put it. I'll leave it like that. Has he been suspended? 605 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Do you think? I don't think so, um, because that 606 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: was sort of that would prove his point that the 607 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: tour is that there are a bunch of ogres and 608 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: that they don't have their best interests of the players 609 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: at heart. Um. That would just give him more ammunition 610 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: and he would be going to there are guys on 611 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: the fence about the Saudie Golf League. He'd be like, look, 612 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: we're trying to we're trying to make you know, make 613 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: this better for everybody and and grow the game. And 614 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: look what they're doing to me for growing the game, 615 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: And um, I think that would be too much what 616 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: we would have heard from him. Again if that would 617 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: have been the case, Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I mean, 618 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: I think Jamon handsmen overmatched in a lot of this. 619 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: I don't think you would make that mistake right now. 620 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: I mean, basically, when when a guy's dig is own 621 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: his own grave, don't take the shovel away, like they'll 622 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: just let him keep going. And so I think I 623 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: think Jay's on the sideline, you know, just kind of 624 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: smiling ear to ear and trying to trying to let 625 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: Phil do his thing. I mean, presumably like he's putting 626 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: together a nice bouquet of flowers to send them to me, 627 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, maybe some chocolates. You know, I think that 628 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: j might might want to acknowledge, but I'm not gonna 629 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: wait for that for too long. Well, and you'd return 630 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: to sender obviously, um because but the um But which 631 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: this brings up another point where I saw one come 632 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: it that came back. I can't tell if Alan is 633 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 1: working for the tour here, are working for Phil? Which what? 634 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: Or is there a third possibility in which you're actually 635 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: not working for either, You're just reporting the truth and 636 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,239 Speaker 1: letting people make their own decisions about what's going on here. Like, 637 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: what are we so far gone in the world of 638 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: actual journalism that you in theory have to be working 639 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: for one side or the other. There is no actual 640 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: There is no woodword Adstein anymore. Right, Well, it's honestly, 641 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: I think why I don't want to take this too far. 642 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: But Phil and I have some similarities in that I'm 643 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: okay if people are mad at me also, and sometimes 644 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: I just want to put it out there and um 645 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: and yeah. So this this would be a case where 646 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: I don't care feels mad at me. I don't care 647 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: if Saudi Arabi is mad at me or Jay Monahan's 648 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: mad at me. Like the people I work for are 649 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: are the readers. That's it. That's all I care about. 650 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: And I want to give them something that's going to 651 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: educate them entertain them. And that's the only constituency that 652 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: matters to me. I don't I don't care if I 653 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: show up a tournament and Bryce is mad at me 654 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: because I just cost him a payday, or Dustin's piste 655 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: off because he doesn't get to go on the Prince's 656 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 1: yacht and international waters and do whatever they do out 657 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: there when he when he's over in Saudi Arabia, Like 658 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: that's not my concern. Like my concern is telling the 659 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: truth and reporting things honestly and and as you said, 660 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: let the readers decide um. So I'm trying not to 661 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: editorialize too much. I mean, and that's that's the whole 662 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: theme of the book as well. And I think people 663 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: may now think like this this is next jose to 664 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: like take down and phil that that's not the tone 665 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: of the book. I mean, I think it's actually quite balanced, 666 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: where I just I just tell his story completely, and 667 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of stuff about Uh. This is 668 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: written with a lot of affection because it feels a 669 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,840 Speaker 1: fun at it to be around and to cover and 670 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: he's his heart's in the right place with the philanthropy 671 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: and the random acts of kindness and the way he 672 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,839 Speaker 1: takes players under his wing and really helps uh coach 673 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: him up in a profound way, and all that's in 674 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: the book too. I Mean, what makes feel so interesting 675 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: is he's very complex and he has these warring impulses, 676 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: you know, he uh, and I just lay it all 677 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: out there, and it's it's not a rip job, it's 678 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: not a hagiography. It's just it's it's the story of 679 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: one golfer who's led a really big life and so 680 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: all the great stuff in there and celebrate the victories 681 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: and and all his good guy virtues. But there's a 682 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: lot of messiness too, and there's a lot of complicated 683 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: relationships and that's all in there too, whether it's Billy Walters, 684 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: or it's the bust up with Bones, or it's the 685 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: Saudi episode. And you know, I think I'm not telling 686 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: people how to feel about film Micholeson. They're gonnad and 687 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: they're gonna side. And I think a lot of his 688 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: fans are gonna love me even more because there's a 689 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: lot of great stuff in there, and and that does 690 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: that is has a celebratory tone and and the people 691 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: who have never been a phil fan will probably be 692 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: galvanized too because there's a lot of stuff in there 693 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: that can be considered unflattering. And um so I think 694 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 1: that's great if if people don't know what my true 695 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: feelings are, what my motivations are, because that's not not 696 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: what it's about. I'm not I'm not I'm not doing advocacy. 697 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: Here are public relations. I mean, I'm trying to tell 698 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: an honest story, what a concept um and and thankfully 699 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: you're doing it now for the fire Pit Collective, which 700 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, I've kept telling people we haven't even really 701 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: really released the true strategy of who we are and 702 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: what we are in terms of docuseries, concepts, obviously seeing 703 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 1: some of it around the grind, but we have others, 704 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: and we have more. And I told people for the 705 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: last you know, really for the last eight months, you 706 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: really been embedded in the Phil book. And this is 707 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,839 Speaker 1: you know, this is an excerpt from that. But you're 708 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 1: our our four hitter in our lineup is actually about 709 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: to just be unleashed into the world of truth. And 710 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, I've always been, if not 711 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: your number one fan, you know, because you have a 712 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: lot of those I'm I'm in the conversation and not 713 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: only for your writing and reporting, but just your general um, 714 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,439 Speaker 1: you know, guts for for your for your thick skin 715 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: and ability to just you know, as I said, like 716 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 1: Dan jan I'm not sure that I've seen many people 717 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: have the kind of guts that you have, you know, 718 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: like Dan Jenkins had for so long, someone that we 719 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: both obviously admired. Um. There's more excerpts coming before the 720 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: actual book drop, in addition to a lot more features 721 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: and other pointed Um editor, I was on your part 722 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,720 Speaker 1: what what is what can we expect from this book 723 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: between now and the actual release of the entire thing? Yeah, 724 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: I mean it is a delicate dance. Um, how much 725 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: of the book do you do you give? You give 726 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: to people before it actually comes out, Like you don't 727 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 1: want them to be so sated that like, well, I 728 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:21,239 Speaker 1: don't think I need to read the book because I 729 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: have a good sense of it. But you also want to. 730 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: You want to tease them and interest them and give 731 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 1: them enough of a taste that, um, they feel they're intrigued. 732 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: So you know, I have to lean on Simon Schuster 733 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: a little bit. They have a lot more experience than 734 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: that that I do. Um, But certainly you and I 735 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: are are fired up to do podcasts around the release, 736 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,799 Speaker 1: and there's there's any number of different ways we can go. 737 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I think what we dropped next is probably 738 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: gonna be I want to capture some of the fun 739 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: and the zany nost um of I mean I have 740 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: there's so many laugh out loud moments in this book 741 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: and so many unbelievable stories that are Um, you know 742 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: it's an I roll. But and you can't decide is 743 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: this guy a cartoon character? Is ridiculous or do I 744 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: like him? He fun? I mean, it's all all mixed 745 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: into one. So I think maybe the next drop should 746 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: be something like that, just so people don't have the 747 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 1: expectation there's just gonna be one bombshell after another. But 748 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: there those are. We have a few more we can 749 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: drop around the release that I think are gonna people 750 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,840 Speaker 1: are gonna lose their mind over so um finding the 751 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: right balance for for for readers that and um, And 752 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: then you know, for sure Simon Schuster is their partners 753 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: with us and all of this, and so we have 754 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: to do right by them, because if it's up to 755 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,879 Speaker 1: you and I, we probably do like an excerpt every 756 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: week and just give the whole book away by publication day. 757 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: And that would be great for the fire Pick Collective, 758 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,719 Speaker 1: but Simon Schuster be a little bummed. So you know, 759 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta find the right balance. It's good 760 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: for everybody. But there's so much in this book and 761 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: I can't wait for people to read it like it's 762 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: actually it's tortured not to be able to put it 763 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: out sooner. But it's just it's just as discussed earlier. 764 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: You never would would drop a big excerpt just far 765 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: out from publication day. But because the Saudi team is 766 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: accelerating and was, as you know, it was really coming 767 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,879 Speaker 1: to a boil. It was now or never, and so 768 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: we chose now as opposed to never. But um, well, me, 769 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: you and a few other folks will have some conversations, 770 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: probably when you're back from Scotland, and we'll map something out. 771 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: But there's more stuff coming. That's all I can say. 772 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you've read the book, Matt, it's it's there's 773 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: there's some there's some big revelations, but there's also some 774 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: some grace notes and some wonderful little, um you know, 775 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: intimate moments, and there's everything in between. So well, we'll 776 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: find the right balance. I don't know what that is 777 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,279 Speaker 1: exactly at this moment, but we'll get there. I keep 778 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: telling people it's the best of Phil and it's the 779 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: worst to fill and both on and off the course. 780 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: So it's the best of his of his winds, and 781 00:40:55,520 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, highlight highlights of his losses, and then it's 782 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: the best that he does, you know, in philanthropic you 783 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: know giving, you know, over tipping charity ways, and then 784 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: it's all the other stuff. And that's you know the 785 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: volatility of this of this man is is really to 786 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: your point, it's it's it's admits. It's why he is 787 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: so interesting, you know, in your heart of hearts, Alan, 788 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: because this actually has come up a couple of times 789 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: by people in the note do you think Phil is? 790 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 1: Do you think Phil is okay? Like? Is he? I 791 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: mean no, and I mean I don't. I'm not saying 792 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: this in a laugh like. I will tell you that 793 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,839 Speaker 1: I spoke to Phil recently in an interview on Tim Rosaford, 794 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: in which I approached him to see if he'd be 795 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: a part of this Tim rose Afford tribute to Tim's 796 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: life and legacy of a man who you know, who 797 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: died at an incredibly young age of a horrific disease 798 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 1: like Alzheimer's. And to Phil's credit, he agreed to to 799 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: talk to me. And then we get and then he says, 800 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: can we do it just audio or do we want 801 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: to do zoom? And I said I'd love to have 802 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: it on zoom because then we can use social clips. 803 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: And when he came on zoom, he was hugging the 804 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: PGA Championship trophy. So which was you know, at first 805 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: glance it was funny. It was like, oh wow, okay, 806 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: you know he's he's really running this bit all the 807 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 1: way through. But then I was like, but I'm calling 808 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: to talk to you about the life and legacy of 809 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: Tim rose Afford. And he stood. He stood there and 810 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 1: did the entire interview with the PGA Championship trophy in 811 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: his you know, like hugging it to, you know, and 812 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about, you know, Tim rose Afford, who died 813 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: of Alzheimer's, And I'm like, what there is like this 814 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: this there's this disconnect from sort of what is known 815 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: to be reality, and he might have he might actually 816 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: be unplugged from that well for sure. I mean he's 817 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 1: he's in a bubble inside a bubble. I mean the 818 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: PJ towards a bubble. And when you're when you're a 819 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: Hall of Famer and when you feel like he's, it's 820 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: interesting because in some ways he's very grounded, Like his 821 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: closest friends are basically his college teammates, and they they're 822 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: just regular guys. I mean, Rob Mangini was one of 823 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: his closest friends. He sells title insurance and they play 824 00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: golf together, and he's he's kind of his he grounds 825 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: him and he talks trash and he's his sounding board 826 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: flow of things. I mean Phil does have people. It's 827 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 1: not just all like Tiger. All his friends he had 828 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: he had to pay to be his friends, right, Like 829 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 1: they're all they all work for him in some capacity. 830 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean Phil does have a big circle of people 831 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: different walks of life. And there's a lot of guys 832 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: from Pebble Beach who they played in the pro am 833 00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: with him, and they have the more for dinner that 834 00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 1: week and you know they're they're they're pretty solid, dude, 835 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: so um. But yeah, I mean he's he's there's an 836 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 1: intensity about him, and there's also he's like an adrenaline junkie, right, 837 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 1: And I think that he's become so accustomed to the 838 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,399 Speaker 1: spotlight and to the wager and to the juice. He's 839 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: he just lives on juice, whatever that means. And it's 840 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: almost like his nervous system is a little fried from 841 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: that from thirty years in the spotlight and all the 842 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: controversies and all the crack ups on the golf course 843 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,359 Speaker 1: and all the adulation and all the fame and all 844 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: the money and you know it, it's it's not a 845 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,960 Speaker 1: normal existence. We know what it did to Tiger Woods. 846 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: I mean, he broke his body, He's been involved in scandals, 847 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: he's been to rehab at least twice that we know of. 848 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: It's it's not a normal life. And I think Phil 849 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: has done a good job surrounding himself with pretty normal people. 850 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: You know, Amy's solid, and you know Bones was a 851 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: trusty wingman for a long time. And but he's an 852 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: interesting guy. I mean, I don't want to spoil too 853 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: much of what's in the book, but I'll tell you 854 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,640 Speaker 1: one story that's pretty amazing, um and still makes me 855 00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: laugh and also cringe. So after after Amy gets breast 856 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: cancer and you know, there's a huge outpouring of love 857 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,920 Speaker 1: and support for her, and um, Tiger texts Phil and 858 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,800 Speaker 1: Tiger's father died of cancer as well, and he Tiger 859 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:28,040 Speaker 1: expresses his his support and best wishes and says something 860 00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, hopefully, someday we'll cure cancer 861 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: and it'll stop, you know, taking away the people we love, 862 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:38,200 Speaker 1: and Phil thanks him and whatever, but he can't resist 863 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: and he writes, hopefully, someday they'll find a cure for 864 00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:45,160 Speaker 1: your hook. And it's just like I mean, it's a 865 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 1: funny line. And it's great that he's like tweaking Tiger, 866 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: who's his lifelong nemesis, but it's not really the moment, 867 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: you know, like Tiger is sending him a heartfelt text 868 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: because Phil's wife is sick, and but he just he 869 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: can't help himself. And you know, we know the house 870 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,720 Speaker 1: always wins, right. Phil thinks he's smarter than the house, 871 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: and that's a problem, and so he loves to have 872 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,279 Speaker 1: the last word. He loves for people to think he's 873 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: the smartest guy in the room. I think a lot 874 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 1: of that informed why he was so brutally honest with me. Um, 875 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,480 Speaker 1: he wanted me to know that he was working three 876 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,759 Speaker 1: different angles and it was important for him that I 877 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: knew that, and by virtue that all my readers would 878 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,280 Speaker 1: know that too. But um, you know, he he outsmarts 879 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 1: himself regularly, and it was clearly one of those examples. 880 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:43,480 Speaker 1: So it's a fascinating question. Um, you know Phil as 881 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: a personality type, I mean someone who knows him very 882 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,840 Speaker 1: well and even in a professional capacity, you know, describing 883 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: to me as a textbook sociopath. You know, someone who 884 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,279 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily feel feelings, and as you're saying, you're you're 885 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,759 Speaker 1: doing this this rent story about Tim Roselford, and he's 886 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,280 Speaker 1: kind of making a joke about having won the PG Championship, 887 00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,279 Speaker 1: and it's kind of like his text of Tiger. I mean, 888 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: there's it's fair to wonder, Um, you know, does does 889 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: Phil processed emotions the way most people do. It seems 890 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: like the answer is no. But um, you know, that's 891 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 1: why it's part of what makes him so so fascinating, 892 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: because we can't quite figure him out. Well, we'll see 893 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 1: what happens next, but I suspect that we're gonna get 894 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: Phil the humility, Phil at the microphone doing what I 895 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,440 Speaker 1: think one of the best things that he does, which 896 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: is falling his sword, apologize, you know, maybe claim claim victory. 897 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 1: Like you say, get back out on the golf course, 898 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: get back to hitting impressive shots. Maybe even when if 899 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: it has to be on the Champions Tour, it has 900 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: to be on the Champions of Whatever it takes, He'll 901 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,680 Speaker 1: go back quist, end the trophy, thumbs up, signed a 902 00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: bunch of autographs over tip and and and and get 903 00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: back to being Phil. And hopefully for Phil, he hasn't 904 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,280 Speaker 1: lost all of his you know, endorsement deals and hasn't 905 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: lost you know, the fan base that has propped him 906 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,200 Speaker 1: up for for decades. I'm sure he's lost, he's lost some, 907 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: but you have to remember that that Twitter is such 908 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:30,760 Speaker 1: an echo chamber. And you know, I was my daughter 909 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: had a playoff basketball game last night, which they won 910 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,439 Speaker 1: onto the quarterfinals, and um, you know, I was talking 911 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 1: to some people there who they know what I do 912 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,759 Speaker 1: for a living. They're not really hardcore golf fans. And 913 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,319 Speaker 1: so one of them said, yeah, I heard something that 914 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: you wrote a story about Phil. You know, my my 915 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,799 Speaker 1: husband said there's something big controversy and it's I kind 916 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: of I said, well, it's a long story. It's like 917 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: I don't even want to hear it. She's like, but 918 00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: you know, I've always liked Phil and he's always getting 919 00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,720 Speaker 1: into controversies, right, is this one different? Said kind of, 920 00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, he's it's has more geo political overtones, but 921 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,799 Speaker 1: you know, not really just another controversy. And she's like, Wow, 922 00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: that's just who he is. And you know that I 923 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 1: think that a lot of golf fans are not in 924 00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,440 Speaker 1: the weeds on this stuff, that they're not even really 925 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,839 Speaker 1: following it. Now is golf Twitter? You know, yes, we're 926 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 1: all hot and bothered about it. But the people who 927 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,919 Speaker 1: love Phil, I think a lot of them are still 928 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,759 Speaker 1: gonna love him. And has he has he lost some fans, yes, 929 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,800 Speaker 1: but he's also his brand has always been as like 930 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: an iconoclass and a renegade, right, and this is just 931 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,879 Speaker 1: another example. So I think that you know, it may 932 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: not damage him the way we think it will. You know, 933 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:40,040 Speaker 1: I've seen a lot of stuff on Twitter like Phil's 934 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: legacy is at stake. I mean, he's got six major championships, 935 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: he has forty five PGA Tour victories. He's already in 936 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,520 Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame. Uh, he's been one of the 937 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: most popular golfers the last quarter century. I don't think 938 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 1: his legacies at stake. I mean this was this was 939 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 1: this was a this was a gambit by him that 940 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: may have may have blown up or maybe it's work, 941 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: depends on your point of view. But um, I think 942 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: I think Phil will survive this because he survives everything, 943 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,399 Speaker 1: and he'll find a way to spin it and it'll 944 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,160 Speaker 1: be a fascinating high wire performance like it always is. 945 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: And um, as you say, I'll get back on the 946 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: golf course and he'll probably win the Masters, So, um, 947 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, what will Phil do next? I mean, it's 948 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 1: been it's been a cheesy ad campaign for a lot 949 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,360 Speaker 1: of our adult lives, but it's it endures because it's 950 00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,240 Speaker 1: it's so relevant. You just he's the ultimate wild card. 951 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: He's utterly mercurial and unpredictable, and uh that's why, that's 952 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,800 Speaker 1: why he can be such a riveting performer. So uh, 953 00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:43,480 Speaker 1: I can't wait to see when he you know, he's 954 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 1: been up in the Yellowstone Club in Montana skiing and 955 00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,200 Speaker 1: refreshing Twitter, and I'll be as curious everybody else what 956 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,239 Speaker 1: his next move is. It it's gonna be it's gonna 957 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,560 Speaker 1: be fascinating. But um, I do think ultimately Phil is 958 00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,080 Speaker 1: gonna survive this. He's just he just always marches forward. 959 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: Like I said, you did him a favor because the 960 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,880 Speaker 1: one thing I don't think he could have survived is 961 00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: an actual deal with Saudi Arabia and Greg Norman. You know, 962 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,920 Speaker 1: he can, he can hit moving balls. He can you know, undermined, 963 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: you know, an eight time major champion and Tom Watson. 964 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,239 Speaker 1: But you can't. You can't do that, And that, more 965 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,040 Speaker 1: than anything, is why, at the end of the day, 966 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 1: I think in his heart of hearts. Whether Phil is 967 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 1: going to admit it or his lawyer did admit it, 968 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 1: he did him a favor, So Alan shipnuk. The truth matters. 969 00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,719 Speaker 1: You delivered it. And uh, I can't wait, you know, 970 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:40,680 Speaker 1: beyond Phil, I can't wait to see what you do next. 971 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,480 Speaker 1: So thank you. I was a fun chat as always. 972 00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,760 Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, Matt Janelle alive from San Andrew, Scotland. 973 00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: So it's, uh, you never know where this game is 974 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:52,680 Speaker 1: gonna take us. What is it? What time is it 975 00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,320 Speaker 1: over there? It's like it's after midnight, right one thirty 976 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,640 Speaker 1: three am, and I'm still buzzing off of a two 977 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:08,120 Speaker 1: hour interview with h the great great granddaughter Sheila Walker 978 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,400 Speaker 1: Is It is a descendant old Tom Morris. She is 979 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,319 Speaker 1: still lives in the house he lived in, overlooking the 980 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:20,040 Speaker 1: eighteenth Green. She sat with us today, took us through 981 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,399 Speaker 1: her garden, sat with us for two hours, told incredible stories. 982 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:29,280 Speaker 1: Seventy seven years old. Um, I've challenged her putting contest 983 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,520 Speaker 1: at the Himlas, which I have a feeling she's going 984 00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,200 Speaker 1: to take me up on before we leave here. Just 985 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:41,239 Speaker 1: one of the most delightful, impressive, articulate, amazing people I've 986 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: ever sat down with and don't tell my wife, but 987 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,359 Speaker 1: I have a crush on a seventy seven year old woman. 988 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,919 Speaker 1: So it's like the movie Harold and Maud. I love it. Well, 989 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: I mean, let's just just I mean, that's all great stuff. 990 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,160 Speaker 1: When Phil Nicholson comes to St. Andrew's to play the 991 00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,560 Speaker 1: Open Championship this summer, she's probably gonna stand on her 992 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: balcony and platform. She probably loves film Nicholson and I 993 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,600 Speaker 1: don't think this is going to change that. So uh yeah, 994 00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: that's that's that's great. I love that. You know, we're 995 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,879 Speaker 1: sort of the two different polls of the golf world. 996 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,839 Speaker 1: I'm your a couple of beats this morning. You're you're 997 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,760 Speaker 1: in uh you're in St Andrew's. We got it covered 998 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: for now. So I went into the I went into 999 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:26,279 Speaker 1: the home of the home of golf. It is it 1000 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,319 Speaker 1: is actually talk about the bubbles and the bubbles. This 1001 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,320 Speaker 1: is like this is where you drilled down to and 1002 00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: it was. It's incredible. So with that, um, thank you 1003 00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,000 Speaker 1: again and until next time, I'll catch you with your soon. Thanks. 1004 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 1: All right, see your parts. M fire, nobody here's getting tired. 1005 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:08,920 Speaker 1: M settle down and settle in. The story is about 1006 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:19,160 Speaker 1: to begin, the circles starting to take its shape, seats 1007 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:28,480 Speaker 1: of field in the tired sun plans its escape. Everybody's 1008 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:35,520 Speaker 1: got some glory, just wait unto unfold. Everybody's got some story. 1009 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 1: Just wait until be to the place, for that is here. 1010 00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,719 Speaker 1: All those smiles and all those tears, let them go. 1011 00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:03,240 Speaker 1: Put another log on the figh. M hmm. Nobody hears 1012 00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:14,359 Speaker 1: getting tired. Settle down and settle in. The story is 1013 00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 1: about to begin. Tales were told of war and go 1014 00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:33,799 Speaker 1: lover is lost in a lifetimes dreams ours soul, And 1015 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,440 Speaker 1: maybe you should stop in the sun at the wisdom 1016 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:41,719 Speaker 1: in the air. Maybe you should pour your heart out. 1017 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: We ain't go Hayway, find your mercy in the sound 1018 00:55:53,120 --> 00:56:33,439 Speaker 1: as the smoke gets pushed around and your soul. Put 1019 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 1: another log on the fire. Nobody hears getting tired. Settle 1020 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 1: down and settle the story. Here's about to begin the story. 1021 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:06,160 Speaker 1: Here's about to begin. The story hears about to begin.