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Speaker 1: As a little girl. You don't say, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I can't wait to grow up and marry a guy

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Speaker 1: who cheats on me and makes me feel like the

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Speaker 1: only way I can leave is if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be homeless in a ditch.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 2: change everything. Lorena is a Midwestern mom who's never met

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Speaker 2: a stranger. When she meets someone, she wants to really connect.

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Speaker 1: If you want to sit there and talk about the

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Speaker 1: blue sky and the green grass, please go find somebody else,

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Speaker 1: because I don't have time for that. You want to

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Speaker 1: tell me who you are and what you want to

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Speaker 1: be all over that.

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Speaker 2: She came to the interview with an extra large iced

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Speaker 2: coffee in hand and the energy level to match.

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Speaker 1: Cafeine. Caffeine, let's a caffeine? Doestall make it? I have

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Speaker 1: eleven children and I have four grandkids. I'm busy eleven children.

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Speaker 1: She was eighteen when she had her first and forty

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Speaker 1: when she.

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Speaker 2: Had her last. In that time, she didn't go two

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Speaker 2: years without being pregnant. How did she get here with

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Speaker 2: eleven kids? Well, she belonged to a conservative Baptist church.

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Speaker 2: In her community, big families were the norm, and she

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Speaker 2: loved motherhood. But today she sees that she was a

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Speaker 2: frog in boiling water. She didn't realize the temperature was

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Speaker 2: being turned up until it was too late. Lorena was

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Speaker 2: raised by a single mother, and their family moved nearly

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Speaker 2: every year. She always envied her friends who had this

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Speaker 2: stability she didn't seem to have.

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Speaker 1: I really really wanted the nuclear family. I really wanted. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: it's the mom, and it's the dad, and it's some kids.

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Speaker 2: Her mom worked in a hospital and would bring Lorena

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Speaker 2: along with her sometimes to sit in the waiting room.

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Speaker 2: While she was there. She fantasized about a career in medicine,

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Speaker 2: working with premature babies.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a doctor. I actually wanted to

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Speaker 1: be a neonatologist.

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Speaker 2: But as she got older and became a teenager, she

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Speaker 2: and her mom started butting heads. She felt like her

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Speaker 2: mom didn't have time for her, so Lorena started to

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Speaker 2: do exactly what she wanted. When she was sixteen, she

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Speaker 2: ran away from home. She says it wasn't as dramatic

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Speaker 2: as it sounds. She just went to a friend's house

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Speaker 2: when her mom found her, she'd been smoking weed, and

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Speaker 2: her mom did something drastic.

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Speaker 1: My mother figured out that she could put me in

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Speaker 1: direct treatment centers. It was almost like a little mini prison.

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Speaker 2: She went to three. The first wooding keeper because they

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Speaker 2: found out that she wasn't struggling with any drug addiction.

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Speaker 2: The second was a psychiatric hospital. They assessed her and

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Speaker 2: kept her there for a few weeks before they determined

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Speaker 2: that she didn't need to be hospitalized, and so she

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Speaker 2: found another place. And the third place she found.

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Speaker 1: They put everyone there on eight hundred milligrams of lithium

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Speaker 1: twice a day, whether you needed it or not.

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Speaker 2: As soon as she turned eighteen, she got out of

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Speaker 2: there and moved out of the state with her boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: Within a few months, she found out that she was pregnant.

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Speaker 1: From the very moment I took that pregnancy test and

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Speaker 1: saw that positive line, I was so excited. I just

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Speaker 1: was so incredibly amazed that I could be a mall.

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Speaker 2: But she experienced deception early on in that relationship.

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Speaker 1: I was twenty He told me he was twenty five.

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Speaker 1: I find out that he lied to me, he's thirty five.

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Speaker 1: I found his driver's license, thirty five. That's a lot

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Speaker 1: of age difference. You're not on equal grounds. There's not

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Speaker 1: equal footing.

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Speaker 2: So she did what she'd always done growing up, figure

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Speaker 2: life out by herself. She left him, took the baby,

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Speaker 2: and moved back to her home state, which we're not

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Speaker 2: naming here to protect her privacy. And back home, she

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Speaker 2: got herself into college. While she was in school, she

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Speaker 2: had another baby. She was excited to have a second,

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Speaker 2: but she didn't want a long term relationship with the father.

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Speaker 1: I'm in college. I'm mostly making a's couple of bees

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Speaker 1: there except twenty four. I had my second child in

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Speaker 1: a glass that I really shouldn't have been in, and.

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Speaker 2: I made a c Now that she had two young

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Speaker 2: children that she was raising alone, going to medical school

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Speaker 2: seemed unreal life stick, so she changed her plans and

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Speaker 2: decided to get her business degree. She began studying to

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Speaker 2: become an accountant.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a business class and I see the sky

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Speaker 1: across the room and I'm like, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: He was strikingly handsome, well dressed, and the smartest one

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Speaker 2: in the class.

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Speaker 1: He asks me if I want to study, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: he is setting the standard on all the tests, and

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Speaker 1: he's wanting to study with me, and I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that. And so we make plans and when

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Speaker 1: he comes over, we don't study.

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Speaker 2: We're going to call him Peter. So she and Peter

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Speaker 2: stayed up all night talking.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, we're talking and and he's just listening to me.

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Speaker 1: He left somewhere between four and six am. He kissed me,

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Speaker 1: and then.

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Speaker 2: He left the next day, he called her.

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Speaker 1: He called me right after he got out for four. Hey,

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Speaker 1: I was just wanting to come by and see you. Wow.

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Speaker 2: He made her feel important. They started planning playdates with

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Speaker 2: her two young kids and movie nights at her apartment.

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Speaker 1: And I loved the way he made me feel. He

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Speaker 1: made me feel seen and heard. He made me feel

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Speaker 1: like I was the smart one. And I don't think

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Speaker 1: that I had felt like some man had ever been

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Speaker 1: that interested in me before.

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Speaker 2: Things were moving quickly. After just a few dates, they

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Speaker 2: became inseparable.

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Speaker 1: With most of my past relationships, they were like easing

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Speaker 1: into relationships, you know, you talk a little bit. But

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Speaker 1: with him, we never stopped seeing one another.

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Speaker 2: She was into him, but Lorena had two small children

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Speaker 2: to protect. She didn't want them to get attached to Peter.

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Speaker 2: So three months into their relationship, she said she couldn't

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Speaker 2: continue unless he was serious.

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Speaker 1: And at that point in time, he told me he

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Speaker 1: loved me and he wanted to pursue the relationship with

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Speaker 1: the possibility of marriage, which I was like what.

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Speaker 2: A few months after that, Lorena went to the doctor

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Speaker 2: for a routine physical.

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Speaker 1: I get a phone call and they tell me I'm pregnant.

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Speaker 1: So Peter came over that night and I told him,

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Speaker 1: and I was so scared. I remember we were standing

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen and he picked me up, put me

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Speaker 1: on the counter, and looked in my eyes and.

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Speaker 2: Said, please, please.

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Speaker 1: Will you marry me. I don't want our child to

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Speaker 1: not have a father. And I was like, yeah, yes

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Speaker 1: I will.

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Speaker 2: Peter adopted her two younger children, and now, as a

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Speaker 2: mom of three and a wife, getting her college degree

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Speaker 2: became even more difficult.

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Speaker 1: I had basically taken that semester off in the fall.

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Speaker 1: I think I took one class and passed it, and

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Speaker 1: then in the spring he said, well, how about you

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Speaker 1: just stay home with the kids. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: that's really thoughtful. So I decided, hey, let's try that.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be at home with my kids

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Speaker 1: because I haven't ever had this opportunity to just be

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Speaker 1: a full time mom.

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Speaker 2: All of a sudden, she had the nuclear family she'd

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Speaker 2: always wanted, and Peter promised he would be their provider

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Speaker 2: while she paused her education. He excelled in his.

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Speaker 1: His professor had told him, you were very smart. If

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Speaker 1: you ever decided to go back and get your master's degree,

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Speaker 1: don't sell yourself short. Go to an Ivy League school

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Speaker 1: you can get in.

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Speaker 2: So Peter started applying to NBA programs, and it turned

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Speaker 2: out his professor was right. He was accepted into one

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Speaker 2: of the top three business schools in the country, and

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Speaker 2: the family moved to the Northeast for his education. Alone

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Speaker 2: in a new city with her kids, Peter encouraged the

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Speaker 2: family to start going to church.

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Speaker 1: His mother was very religious. She was Pedecostal, and he

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Speaker 1: wanted me to go to church. So I went, and

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Speaker 1: you know what I found, God, I Jesus right there.

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Speaker 2: She hadn't grown up religious, but the church became a

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Speaker 2: home away from home. When Peter graduated from his MBA,

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Speaker 2: Lorena was there at his graduation with their family and

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Speaker 2: now five children. He even graduated with a high paying

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Speaker 2: job offer to make it even better. The job was

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Speaker 2: close to their home state.

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Speaker 1: And this is like the biggest energy company. It's huge,

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Speaker 1: and he's got a good job there.

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Speaker 2: Back in the Heartland with her five kids and her

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Speaker 2: ivy league husband, Lorena had a dream life. She and

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Speaker 2: Peter started looking for a new church. That's when they

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Speaker 2: found this.

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Speaker 1: Really cool organization IBLP, Bill Gothard's Institute in Basic Life Principles. Oh,

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Speaker 1: come here and learn about our program, and it will

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Speaker 1: inspire you and grow you as a parent, give you

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Speaker 1: kind of an idea of how to live a better life,

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Speaker 1: how to be a better mother, how to be a

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Speaker 1: better father, a better husband, a better wife.

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Speaker 2: They gave the family workbooks for homeschooling their kids and

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Speaker 2: guides to parenting. They provided free meals and childcare. It

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Speaker 2: all came with a conservative, fundamentalist ideology.

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Speaker 1: I bought into that. Peter bought into that. We bought

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Speaker 1: into that.

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Speaker 2: If you've heard of the Dougger family and their reality

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Speaker 2: TV show Nineteen Kids Incounting, you've probably heard of IBLP.

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Speaker 2: The church and the Doggers were featured in the documentary

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Speaker 2: Shiny Happy People that came out in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: The Dougger's religion promotes having as many children as physically possible,

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Speaker 2: and Peter certainly believed in that. At first, IBLP was

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Speaker 2: a culture shock for Lorena, especially what they expected women to.

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Speaker 1: Wear, Like the Duggers like what they have. The women

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Speaker 1: they are wearing, every single one was in what they

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Speaker 1: call a jumper or a long dress that looked like

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Speaker 1: it came out of the eighteen hundreds.

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Speaker 2: But Peter thought it was a good example for their daughters.

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Speaker 2: He liked the modesty.

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Speaker 1: He's like, well, I really like for you guys to

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Speaker 1: be dressed like this. It's more modest, and we're setting

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Speaker 1: in a standard here in our house. And it did

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Speaker 1: not take long before I conformed and wore what everyone

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Speaker 1: else wore.

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Speaker 2: The church had strong beliefs about gender roles in the household.

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Speaker 1: Women cannot be over men. Men are the umbrella of protection.

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Speaker 1: The women were there to make the food and to

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Speaker 1: keep the kids quiet.

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Speaker 2: And the most important principle.

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Speaker 1: Allow God to dictate the amount of children you have.

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Speaker 2: So she and Peter had another and another.

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Speaker 1: Sex was every day, and sometimes it would be twice

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Speaker 1: a day unless he was traveling clearly, or we had

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Speaker 1: just had a baby, and then it was We'd wait

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Speaker 1: two weeks.

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Speaker 2: All the while Lorena was doing the childcare on her own.

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Speaker 1: Peter would never change diapers. I think with number three

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Speaker 1: he might have changed ten diapers, But then after that,

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Speaker 1: with babies four through eleven, I would say that he

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Speaker 1: probably changed each one of them, maybe twice, and there

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Speaker 1: may have been a couple that he never changed at all.

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Speaker 2: She understood that their religion had conservative beliefs about gender roles,

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Speaker 2: but deep down she hoped that he would do more,

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Speaker 2: especially when it came to the kids.

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Speaker 1: I thought that the church was going to help him

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Speaker 1: to be a better husband and a better father. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it helped him hide things better.

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Speaker 2: One night, as Lorena and Peter were going to.

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Speaker 1: Bed, he was kind of dozing and I was stroking

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Speaker 1: his head and I was like, Peter, I love you

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Speaker 1: so much, and he said I love you too, Crystal.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what what did you just call me?

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Speaker 2: Lorena quickly fell into a religious community that promised to

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Speaker 2: help her with childcare, marriage, and parenting, and the church

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Speaker 2: wanted families to have as many children as possible. By now,

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Speaker 2: Lorena had seven children with her husband and Peter. One night,

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Speaker 2: she was taken aback when her husband called her by

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Speaker 2: the wrong name Crystal.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what did you just call me? Who's Crystal?

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Speaker 1: And he shot out of it, shot up. He's like,

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Speaker 1: I didn't say that. I don't know who Crystal. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what Christal, I don't even know what Crystal.

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Speaker 2: What are you talking about? He blamed the mistake on

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Speaker 2: sleep deprivation, and it made sense. After all, he was

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Speaker 2: constantly working.

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Speaker 1: His schedule was six am to eight pm, So what's

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Speaker 1: that fourteen hours a day. That's Monday through Friday and

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Speaker 1: then Saturday and Sunday. He'd get called in frequently. We'd

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Speaker 1: get out of church and he'd be like, oh, the

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Speaker 1: office called, I gotta go.

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Speaker 2: Even though he was working NonStop and made a great salary,

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Speaker 2: their money got tighter and tighter every year.

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Speaker 1: Christmas came and I remember asking him, can I please

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Speaker 1: just spend seven dollars on each kid? Just seven dollars

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Speaker 1: a piece, And he was like, we don't have any

250
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: money at all left. I'm like, where did all the

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Speaker 1: money go?

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Speaker 2: Lorena assumed it was the financial strain of being a

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Speaker 2: family of nine.

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Speaker 1: So I made everyone homemade gifts that year. I never

255
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Speaker 1: could he got one gift.

256
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 2: Despite money being tight, she relied on Peter to be

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Speaker 2: the financial expert in the family. After all, he had

258
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Speaker 2: an MBA from a top three business school. He printed

259
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Speaker 2: out spreadsheets with their budgets and gave Lorena a weekly

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Speaker 2: allowance for her and the kids.

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Speaker 1: I keep telling myself, it's going to get better. It's

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Speaker 1: going to get better, because as sure as heck couldn't

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Speaker 1: have gotten worse.

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Speaker 2: Right, she was wrong about that. At one point, Lorena

265
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,720
Speaker 2: tried to investigate what was going on financially. She checked

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Speaker 2: on the bank accounts, wanting to understand their expenses and

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Speaker 2: find opportunities to save. But Peter drew a firm boundary.

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Speaker 1: And he said, if you look at this bank account again,

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Speaker 1: I will cut you off and you will not be

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Speaker 1: able to see any finances.

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Speaker 2: After her eighth baby, she had serious health complications. While

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Speaker 2: they were in the hospital, the doctor pulled them both aside.

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Speaker 1: The doctor says, listen, I know you have eight kids,

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Speaker 1: and I know that you kind of have your beliefs

275
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Speaker 1: on that and whatever, but in the best interest of

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Speaker 1: your health, you need to put off having any more kids.

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Speaker 1: Peter looked at him and said, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: do that. We believe in letting the Lord give us

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Speaker 1: as many kids as we want. That's what we're gonna do.

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Speaker 1: After my eighth child was born, I was in an

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Speaker 1: immense amount of pain. I could not even hold my baby,

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Speaker 1: let alone feed him. While I'm healing from all of this,

283
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Speaker 1: I'm not healthy, and I get pregnant with baby number nine.

284
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Speaker 2: As their family continued to grow, so did their financial problems.

285
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Speaker 1: So at this point in time, he had a bankruptcy

286
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Speaker 1: on his record, and he owed back Texas to the

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Speaker 1: state we lived in. I know that he makes a

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Speaker 1: good six figure salary, but I'm getting an eighth maybe

289
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 1: not even that much, a tenth of it to feed

290
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Speaker 1: and clothe the kids.

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Speaker 2: Lorena couldn't understand it. Peter explained that it was the

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Speaker 2: expenses of the kids and the family that were bankrupting them.

293
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,520
Speaker 2: In an attempt to salvage their finances, they decided to

294
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Speaker 2: downsize to a smaller house, and Peter found a new job,

295
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Speaker 2: and at some point in time they started requiring him

296
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Speaker 2: to travel.

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Speaker 1: So here are the kids and I in this dumpy

298
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Speaker 1: house that he's never put much into. It was very old,

299
00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:07,399
Speaker 1: falling apart, dilapidated, two bedroom, one bath for eleven people.

300
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 1: It does have running water, but the septic system is

301
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Speaker 1: a barrel. Lorena rose to the challenge. I can squeeze

302
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: blood from a turnip. Okay, I can show you how.

303
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 1: My oldest son at one point in time came to

304
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 1: me and said, Mom, that makes a good six figure salary.

305
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 1: Why are you living the way you're living? And I

306
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 1: was like, we spend it all.

307
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Speaker 2: They relied on the church as much as they could.

308
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,439
Speaker 2: One summer in twenty fifteen, they took the whole family

309
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Speaker 2: to an IBLP conference.

310
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Speaker 1: And the speakers that year were the Duggers. This was

311
00:19:54,960 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 1: ry after their oldest son had gotten in trouble with

312
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: Ashley Madison.

313
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,159
Speaker 2: Ashley Madison is an online dating platform specifically for married people.

314
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Speaker 2: Their slogan is life is Short, Have an Affair, and

315
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Speaker 2: back in twenty fifteen, their user database had just been hacked.

316
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 2: All their users' emails were now public and available online

317
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Speaker 2: for anyone to see.

318
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Speaker 1: Missus Dugger was talking about how you could go on

319
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Speaker 1: to some website and look up people's email addresses, and

320
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 1: something just clicked in me. So right then and there

321
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of this conference, and I was like, oh,

322
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: I need to go feed the baby. I go outside

323
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: and I'm looking on my phone and I look up

324
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: one of his email addresses and it shows that he

325
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: has an Ashley Madison account, and I nearly threw up.

326
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Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it.

327
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Speaker 2: She decided to confront him that night.

328
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Speaker 1: I said, this is what I found, and he was like,

329
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Speaker 1: that's not me. That email must have been hacked. Oh look,

330
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Speaker 1: I'm going to delete this whole email. Just get rid

331
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Speaker 1: of the email completely so that you believe me. Blah

332
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,320
Speaker 1: blah blah, blah blah blah. And so it was enough

333
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: to go Okay, Well maybe he did because at this

334
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: point in time I believed him because I really had

335
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,479
Speaker 1: no other options. I had no other place to go.

336
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Speaker 1: My mantra is setting it. It's going to get better,

337
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: It's going to get better.

338
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Speaker 2: She had nine kids. Lorena was independent, but raising a

339
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 2: family in a household of this size going in alone

340
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,479
Speaker 2: was far too scary to think about. But the truth

341
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,159
Speaker 2: was she had been alone for a while.

342
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: He was gone, having to travel for quote unquote work

343
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:12,159
Speaker 1: at least one week out of the month, sometimes it

344
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,920
Speaker 1: would be two. So I was becoming more and more

345
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: accustomed to him not being there. September twenty first, twenty one,

346
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 1: Peter was on another trip because that's what he did.

347
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: I had decided to take my kids to our state fair.

348
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: On the way out to the car, I passed by

349
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,359
Speaker 1: this box.

350
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 2: It was just a shoe box of old papers that

351
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 2: had been floating around Peter's car for the past few months.

352
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 2: She assumed it was just some of Peter's work documents.

353
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: Nobody looked in it because it's work stuff. Why would you,

354
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not interested in this work stuff. Okay,

355
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 1: so nobody looked in it. I must have walked past

356
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,880
Speaker 1: that box twenty times, but.

357
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: On this day, she was curious.

358
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look through it. I'm just gonna look through.

359
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 1: I'm looking through, and I'm seeing all these folders, and

360
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 1: I see one envelope full of birthday cards, and so

361
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: I'm going through and I see this one and on

362
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: the outside of it it's labeled Poppy like Pa p

363
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: I I'm like, okay. I open up the envelope and

364
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: in it is a card and it says, Dear Poppy Dot,

365
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: I hope you like the travel book I made you.

366
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: I have enjoyed our travels together, and I hope to

367
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: have many more with you, Love, Princess Buttercup. At this point,

368
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 1: my blood head ran cold. My hands are trembling, and

369
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: I am shocked. I don't know what this is. I

370
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: don't know what it means. I don't know if it's

371
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: a joke. I don't know if it's real. I don't know.

372
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 2: While her husband was on a work trip, Lorena found

373
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: a shoe box of his old work papers, or at

374
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 2: least that's what she thought it was until she opened it.

375
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: And I'm looking through and I can't believe I'm finding

376
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 1: these weird things.

377
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: At first, she didn't know what she was seeing. This

378
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 2: is really weird.

379
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 1: It's just a paper target population progress chart and then

380
00:24:55,359 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: self assessment scores calendar. That's what it says. Right here,

381
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,600
Speaker 1: what age regression? Only one domb question mark and then

382
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 1: there's a VENMO routing number.

383
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: She kept reading and this is what she came across. Next.

384
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: I came across this one sheet and it said rewards.

385
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's interesting. Nanny Petty from Daddy,

386
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: a point system, remote playtime, SERTs, dress up trips, books,

387
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: watching movie snacks. And then it said little gets backward

388
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,960
Speaker 1: and then on another page, make a schedule fourteen points,

389
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: workout ten points, nutrition, fourteen points.

390
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: It was like a report card or a list of

391
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: activities to do with a kid. But then there was

392
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: another column.

393
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: There was a little part that said punish things that

394
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: I'd never really heard of, edging without release, and I'm

395
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: like yardwork, huh, little did I know? Time out corner.

396
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: It was a reward system of some kind and it

397
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: appeared sexual in nature. But that wasn't all. There were

398
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: credit card statements from cards she didn't know about, and

399
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: receipts for strange purchases.

400
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: Like, oh my word, what is this? Adult baby bottles,

401
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: adult bibs, adult one sees like these are receipts for

402
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: these things that Peter had purchased. There were things of

403
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: him paying baby Bear. That was the name of one

404
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: particular person he was paying. It was somewhere around twenty

405
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: thousand and thirty thousand dollars I'd spent on all of this.

406
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 2: He'd spent thirty thousand dollars on sex toys and kink

407
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: and who was baby bear? Something was very wrong. She

408
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: and Peter's sex life had always been tame. It was

409
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: all just very vanilla. I remember one time we trying

410
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 2: to bring up, Oh, maybe we should try handcuffs. How

411
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 2: would you feel if I had handcuff shoot to the

412
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: bed and he freaked out on me? Oh my gosh,

413
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 2: we can't do that. What if one of us dies

414
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: during it? Princess Buttercup and Baby Bear were clearly indications

415
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 2: of another side of Peter, one that she never knew existed.

416
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: The Peter she knew was devoted to a conservative fundamentalist church,

417
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: but this man clearly wasn't who he claimed to be.

418
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 2: Lorena was afraid to confront him on her own, so

419
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: she called her eldest son, who was twenty four. He

420
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: said he would be there in a few days, and

421
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: he gave her some advice.

422
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: And until then, you're gonna have to hold down the fort.

423
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to pretend like everything is fine. You're

424
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 1: going to have to play the part of everything is

425
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: fine when he calls tonight, Act like it's no big deal.

426
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: When he comes home, Treat it like it's any other night.

427
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: Peter came home two days before her son made it there,

428
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 2: so Lorena did pretend. Finally, her son arrived and they

429
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: got to work.

430
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: My son is very technologically advanced, and we were able

431
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: to go through the computers at home and find things

432
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: that I never could have found on my own.

433
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: And what they found there painted a full picture of

434
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: Peter's deception.

435
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: We found the real Ashley Madison account that he had.

436
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: We found pictures of so many women in various states

437
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: of undress. We found of women with property of dom

438
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: written in sharpie, property of Peter on one woman.

439
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: These pictures had time stamps dating back to twenty seventeen,

440
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: four years prior. So how much money had he actually

441
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 2: spent on affairs and why had he spent so much

442
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: on adult diapers, onesies and baby bottles today? This is

443
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: her understanding of what her husband was doing with these women.

444
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: He wanted to be the dom daddy, and he wanted

445
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: a little girl to play along with him.

446
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: As far as she knows, all the women were adults.

447
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: They were just sometimes pretending to be children or babies

448
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: as part of a kink. Lorena pulled up his social

449
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: media accounts where she found the messages he'd written to

450
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: these women, even messages where he referenced Lorena.

451
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: The other thing that I found on there that he

452
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: said was every night that I'm with you or with her.

453
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: I will call my.

454
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: Wife and I will talk to her for as little

455
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: time as possible. That hurt.

456
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: Before she confronted Peter, Lorena made an appointment with a

457
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: lawyer to talk divorce.

458
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: She had told me, the state that we live in

459
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: is an ofault state, and there's not much that we

460
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: can do unless you have a picture of him having sex. Basically,

461
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: she said, you've got to have a picture of his

462
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: genitalia going into someone else's genitalia. Well, I've found about

463
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: two hundred of pictures and I think three or four videos.

464
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: Her eldest son was helping her collect this information for

465
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 2: the divorce attorneys. They pulled documents together at night, sitting

466
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: in their parked car in the garage while Peter slept

467
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,239
Speaker 2: in the house, and that's when they found proof of

468
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: even more financial deception.

469
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: He was working at several different universities as an adjunct professor,

470
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: so he's making money there and he's hiding it. We

471
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: found this man has been spending clearly hand over fist

472
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: tons of money and my children were like almost at

473
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: poverty level. We had no money. He was hemorrhaging money

474
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: on this lifestyle. After they gathered all the information they

475
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: could find. There was one last thing they needed to do.

476
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: My son says, Mom, I know we have guns in

477
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 1: the house.

478
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,479
Speaker 2: He took them and brought them to a friend's place,

479
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: and once the guns were gone, he made sure his

480
00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: mom and siblings were out of the house, and then

481
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: he confronted his dad.

482
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: My oldest son went inside to our bedroom and said

483
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: to Peter, hey, dad, mom knows everything and she wants

484
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: you to leave. And Peter sat up slowly, yawned and

485
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: stretched big and said okay. And my son said please leave,

486
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: and he said okay, and he left.

487
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: After that, Loreno only talked to Peter one more time

488
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: on the phone to let him know that she was

489
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: filing for divorce.

490
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: I don't remember all the nonsense he tried to say,

491
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: but what he did tell me was what you are

492
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: doing is far worse than anything I ever did. What

493
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: I did, what I was doing was divorcing him. I

494
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: just laughed. I was like it, okay, and we're done.

495
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: And I have not had a conversation with him since.

496
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: That was in twenty twenty one. From then on, her

497
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: son took over all communication with Peter. That allowed Lorena

498
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: to focus on her emotional and financial recovery. She also

499
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: had to explain to her eleving kids why their father

500
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: had left. Her youngest child was five.

501
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: Those early days are just such pipler. I do remember

502
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: telling the children that we were divorcing because of Peter

503
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: making some very bad decisions. I think that the words

504
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: I consistently used were poor choices.

505
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: But when friends and adult family asked, she told them

506
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: the truth how she really felt about her husband.

507
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: Peter was a black hole.

508
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: She couldn't believe how strange it all was. He was

509
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 2: spending tens of thousands of dollars on sexual fetishes, fetishes

510
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: that included things like baby play, but all the while

511
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 2: he was never interested in childcare.

512
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: One thing that kept coming back to me was how

513
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: weird he was about changing diapers. And here he is,

514
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: He's spent, you know, thousands of dollars on diapers. After

515
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: he left and I had filed for divorce, I was

516
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: still trying to go to church, taking the kids and

517
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 1: all that.

518
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: But after what Peter did, church wasn't the same.

519
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 1: There's this cognitive dissonance. I'm now going, what else have

520
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: I been told?

521
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 2: That's not right?

522
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: This whole patriarchy thing how is any of this at

523
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: all biblical? What's real and what's not real? I still

524
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: have a difficult time going to church.

525
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 2: She stopped going to church and is taking time to

526
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 2: reevaluate her spirituality and values. She started going to therapy,

527
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 2: where she began understanding that what she experienced was spiritual abuse.

528
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say all churches, because I believe

529
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: that there are some really awesome churches out there. I've

530
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 1: been to some, okay, But the ones that are perpetuating

531
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: patriarchal abuse are the ones that are saying wives submit

532
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: to your husbands. That allows for men to treat women

533
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,800
Speaker 1: however they desire, with no repercussion.

534
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: She was spiritually abused by the church, but also by Peter. Today,

535
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: she doesn't know if he ever believed any of the

536
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: fundamentalist ideology or if he just used it as a

537
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: way to control her.

538
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: I look back and I can see Peter used that

539
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: to keep me under control, to keep me where he

540
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: wanted me, and to keep me behaving in the way

541
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: he wanted. And three years ago, I couldn't have told

542
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: you that this is three years of heavy duty therapy.

543
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 2: And then there was his devotion to having as many

544
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: kids as God would allow. Was that also just a

545
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: weapon of control?

546
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: Looking back, I see why he did that. It kept

547
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: me busy. His goal was to always keep me busy

548
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: and to keep me from looking at what he was doing,

549
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: because if I wasn't busy with the kids, then my

550
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: focus was on him.

551
00:36:55,400 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: After all, Peter was smart. Unlike a lot of deception story,

552
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: he really did get that fancy MBA from an Ivy

553
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: League school, and after that he parked his wife in

554
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: a fundamentalist church and began an insidious process.

555
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: Somewhere along the way, he had started chipping away at

556
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: my identity of who I was and what I could become,

557
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: and I believed him.

558
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: It hurts to look back and think about the life

559
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: she had before Peter.

560
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: When I met Peter, I was a strong, independent woman.

561
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: I was only twenty two, but I had two children

562
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: and I was taking care of them like a boss.

563
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 1: I had plans, I had goals.

564
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: Still, she adores each of her children, and she says

565
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: they're the reason she's made it through. She's rebuilding her

566
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: life and finally finishing her degree. It's important for her

567
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: to explain that not only can betrayal happen to anyone,

568
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: But so can indoctrination.

569
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: People do ask how does a capable, intelligent person go

570
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: from Hey, I'm a single mom and I'm killing it.

571
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: I'm full time mom, I'm full time student, I'm full

572
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: time employee. How does someone go from that to I'm

573
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: not allowed to look at the financial statements of the house.

574
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: You're comfortable in the beginning, Hey, you know you're not

575
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: really that great at keeping track of things. You might

576
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: forget You've got so much on your plate. Let me

577
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: just do all the finances. I'll take care of it

578
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: all the way to if you look at this bank

579
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 1: account again, I will cut you off and you will

580
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: not be able to see any finances. You're a boiled frog.

581
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 2: We end all of our episodes with the same question,

582
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: why do you want to tell your story? And Lorena

583
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 2: came prepared to answer this one.

584
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: The reason I wanted to tell my story is so

585
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: that others who are out there in a similar situation

586
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: might have their eyes opened and go, Wow, if she

587
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: can do it with eleven kids, seven still at home,

588
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: and with all the odds stacked against her, so can I.

589
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: If my story can just help one person to see

590
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: a little clearer, to feel a little bit of comfort

591
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: to think that their life is not over. You're not

592
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: too old to get out. It's never too late to

593
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: start over and find who you are. That's my hope on.

594
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 2: The next episode of Betrayal. Who is this person?

595
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 1: Have I been with? An ex murderer, a serial rapist?

596
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: I've got to find out this person's real name. If

597
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team

598
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 2: or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email us

599
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at

600
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One way

601
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: to show a support is by subscribing to our show

602
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

603
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. Big thank you

604
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of

605
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 2: Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership

606
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy

607
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 2: Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,

608
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.

609
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden Our. iHeart

610
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 2: team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchech. Audio editing and

611
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: mixing by Matt del Vecchio, additional editing support from Nico

612
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: Aruka and Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains.

613
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: Music library provided by myb Music and For more podcasts

614
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

615
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 2: you get your podcasts