Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric, and this is next question.
Speaker 1: I love origin stories, the way our lives begin shape,
Speaker 1: so much about how they play out and how we
Speaker 1: see the world and the world sees us. My guest today, Jayshetti,
Speaker 1: has an origin story that in some ways seems predestined.
Speaker 1: Business student meets monk, leaves business to become a monk. Monk,
Speaker 1: finds social media and becomes a spiritual teacher to the world.
Speaker 1: It almost sounds like a movie, right, But as you'll
Speaker 1: hear in our conversation, the waters of Jayshetti run deep.
Speaker 1: He rejects the term guru, but it's clear he's becoming
Speaker 1: a guiding light of sorts to many. His enterprise is
Speaker 1: best spanning podcasts. His is called on Purpose to a
Speaker 1: life coaching training company. Now, some of you may have
Speaker 1: seen that Shechetty's reception hasn't been universally warm. There was
Speaker 1: a Guardian piece about a month back before Jay and
Speaker 1: I spoke that scrutinized aspects of his business and his story.
Speaker 1: His reps then responded refuting parts of the article they
Speaker 1: say are untrue. Now we're not going to litigate the
Speaker 1: back and forth of it here, but What is irrefutable
Speaker 1: is Ja Shetty has struck a chord and is providing
Speaker 1: millions of listeners with advice and observations they seem hungry for. Jay.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to view with you.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to be with you. Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for the opportunity.
Speaker 1: You know, I was reading about you, Jay, I know
Speaker 1: about you already, but to refresh my memory and to
Speaker 1: learn new things, I was doing some research and I've
Speaker 1: decided that dose at case man has nothing on you.
Speaker 1: You are the most interesting man in the world, Jay Shetty.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that, but I'll I take that
Speaker 2: as a wonderful complement from you.
Speaker 1: It is, I mean, and you have had such a rich,
Speaker 1: diverse life. And I wanted to kind of go back
Speaker 1: to the beginning because I love to discuss people's origin
Speaker 1: stories because I feel like we're shaped so much by
Speaker 1: our childhoods and our parents. And you grew up in
Speaker 1: London in a very middle class family. I know you
Speaker 1: were bullied in school. How would you describe your childhood
Speaker 1: in general?
Speaker 2: You know what's really interesting, Katie, is that your own
Speaker 2: childhood is so normal to you that the word that
Speaker 2: comes to mind immediately is normal, but that doesn't mean
Speaker 2: a lot because we all look at everything through our
Speaker 2: own lenses normal, And if I had to define it
Speaker 2: or describe it, I'd consider myself to be quite a
Speaker 2: obedient son. I was someone who worked hard at school.
Speaker 2: I was always kind to my fellow classmates. My childhood
Speaker 2: was normal in that sense, but as you mentioned, I
Speaker 2: was bullied a lot for being overweight, who was bullied
Speaker 2: for the color of my skin.
Speaker 1: Because my parents immigrated from India too.
Speaker 2: So my mother was born and raised in Yemen, oh,
Speaker 2: and she moved to London when she was sixteen years
Speaker 2: old because Yemen got its independence and she wanted to
Speaker 2: keep her British passport, so then she moved over to London.
Speaker 2: And my dad moved to London from India when he
Speaker 2: married my mom, and so there was a lot of
Speaker 2: It was really interesting because I grew up in an
Speaker 2: area where there weren't a lot of people who were Indian,
Speaker 2: and so even at my school, and so it was
Speaker 2: quite strange for people to see me. And so what's
Speaker 2: really fascinating though, is that even though I'm saying that
Speaker 2: and I recognize I was bullied, when I actually think
Speaker 2: about my childhood. I kind of think of it as
Speaker 2: very normal. It was just, you know, I was going
Speaker 2: to school, I was trying to work hard, I was
Speaker 2: trying to be a good son. I was trying to
Speaker 2: be nice to people. And I look back on it
Speaker 2: not looking at it as having any deeply amazing fond
Speaker 2: memories or having any major negative memories.
Speaker 1: It sounds like it was a comfortably middle class upbringing.
Speaker 1: I guess your mom was a financial advisor, your dad
Speaker 1: was an accountant. Yes, you must be good with numbers.
Speaker 2: I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. I don't think my
Speaker 2: dad was very happy with my math skill when I
Speaker 2: was growing up, so he'd be pretty angry at me
Speaker 2: my poor math grades.
Speaker 1: But what did set you apart? J which you were
Speaker 1: just describing as kind of the immigrant experience, And I'm
Speaker 1: curious how that might have shaped you. Feeling in some
Speaker 1: ways othered by a lot of your classmates, a lot
Speaker 1: of your neighbors, a lot of people in your community.
Speaker 1: How did that impact you?
Speaker 2: So I think that's what's really fascinating. My parents never
Speaker 2: really let me feel othered, so they never really talk
Speaker 2: about how we were different or how they were treated,
Speaker 2: and I think that actually helped me integrate in that
Speaker 2: I never felt I had a weakness because of the
Speaker 2: color of my skin, or I didn't feel I had
Speaker 2: a weakness because of my shape or size at the time,
Speaker 2: or whatever it may be. I never felt weak. I
Speaker 2: always felt like I fit in, and I always felt
Speaker 2: like I was doing the right thing, and I always
Speaker 2: felt like I was a hard worker. So I almost
Speaker 2: had this sense of if anyone's being mean to me,
Speaker 2: it was because of them, and it wasn't really about
Speaker 2: me at all, because I felt like I was making
Speaker 2: friends with some people. I was, you know, learning from
Speaker 2: my teachers, I was getting along with my parents and
Speaker 2: my family, and so I actually went the other way
Speaker 2: where I never actually felt other. I felt very confident
Speaker 2: and comfortable with who I was.
Speaker 1: And do you think that was because of your parents?
Speaker 2: I think it was. I think one thing I've learned
Speaker 2: over time, and I'm sure you've come across this is
Speaker 2: all the studies showed that the deep love from one
Speaker 2: parent can almost act as a shield from so much
Speaker 2: pain that we go through. And I feel like the
Speaker 2: depth to which my mother has loved me my whole
Speaker 2: life has acted as this incredible shield even today where
Speaker 2: I feel so and I believe it's because when your
Speaker 2: parents love you that deeply, you don't ever question whether
Speaker 2: you're lovable or not. And then when someone doesn't love you,
Speaker 2: it's so abnormal that you recognize that you have a
Speaker 2: loving place to go home to. And so I would
Speaker 2: say it's my mother's love that's acted as such a
Speaker 2: shield and such a potent force of Often I feel
Speaker 2: like I have so much love that can overflow to
Speaker 2: other people because I've been given so much love, so
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily often seek it either or need it
Speaker 2: as much because I feel it's almost overflowing because of
Speaker 2: the cascading love my mother gave me.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, you feel filled up already,
Speaker 1: very filled. Yeah, what about your dad? Did you feel
Speaker 1: that from him as well?
Speaker 2: No, my dad was totally the opposite. So my dad
Speaker 2: he was aloof he was busy, he was you know,
Speaker 2: at work, or he was you know, trying to provide,
Speaker 2: or he was also and my mom was the breadwinner
Speaker 2: for a lot of my life too, so she was
Speaker 2: doing a lot, but my father was more aloot. And
Speaker 2: I again look at that as something I'm very grateful
Speaker 2: for and I don't mean this now, I mean this
Speaker 2: throughout my whole life, not based on reflection, because it
Speaker 2: allowed me to become my own man. I never had
Speaker 2: a man that I had to grow up into being
Speaker 2: because I didn't have a role model, and my dad
Speaker 2: eventually became a friend more than a father. And I'm
Speaker 2: very grateful for that because I was allowed to mold
Speaker 2: myself into the human I wanted to be, and I
Speaker 2: didn't feel any pressure or expectation for my dad to
Speaker 2: become a certain type of man. And I look at
Speaker 2: that freedom as a beautiful gift because I feel like
Speaker 2: I got to find my own male role models, which naturally,
Speaker 2: later on in my journey became monks that I studied with,
Speaker 2: and I feel that's who I accepted as fatherly figures
Speaker 2: almost in my journey.
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about being a monk,
Speaker 1: but first I want to just mention how I feel
Speaker 1: the same way, but luckily from both my parents, how
Speaker 1: much unconditional love I felt my entire life, and how
Speaker 1: sad I am when other people didn't get that from
Speaker 1: their parents. I feel so fortunate, and you know, looking
Speaker 1: back on my childhood and my life until the moment
Speaker 1: when my parents passed away. I don't think it even
Speaker 1: daunted on me to question their love for me. It
Speaker 1: was so deep and constant, and I just feel I
Speaker 1: feel so lucky because I think it does give you
Speaker 1: a certain sense of protection when you're out in the world.
Speaker 1: I recently interviewed Kamala Harris, and I thought it was
Speaker 1: so interesting that she said she never felt I read
Speaker 1: this because we didn't talk about it. We were too
Speaker 1: busy talking about Israel, immigration and abortion. But she said,
Speaker 1: I never felt that I didn't belong anywhere. Yes, you know,
Speaker 1: and she must have had that also, that fierce, unconditional
Speaker 1: love that made her feel strong enough to almost be
Speaker 1: in any environment. And that's such a gift, is it is?
Speaker 2: And I'm the same as you. I feel a deep
Speaker 2: sense of empathy and compassion for those that didn't receive that,
Speaker 2: and can completely understand as to why it leads to
Speaker 2: so many challenges in the future because you don't have
Speaker 2: that deep well to pull from, and your foundation is
Speaker 2: not built on that deep sense of love, belonging, connectedness.
Speaker 2: And so it's been really interesting and having both my parents,
Speaker 2: one like I said, being more aloof and one being
Speaker 2: very present. It's also interesting to me as to how
Speaker 2: all of that can affect us, but how much of
Speaker 2: it is you know, something that we I've often found
Speaker 2: is that all of us have to reparent ourselves or
Speaker 2: parent ourselves later on. And that journey is something that
Speaker 2: I see so many people beautifully, gracefully coming towards of
Speaker 2: learning to reparent themselves, learning to heal themselves. And it's
Speaker 2: something that's necessary for everyone, even if you were loved.
Speaker 2: Because what's really fascinating is I call it in my
Speaker 2: second book Eight Rules of Love, the gifts and gaps
Speaker 2: that our parents give us. And so if our parents
Speaker 2: leave gaps in how we're raised, we often try and
Speaker 2: fill them through other people. But if our parents give
Speaker 2: us gifts of love and greatness in their parenting, we
Speaker 2: often also still look for other people to repeat those things,
Speaker 2: and that can be a painful process. Yeah, because no
Speaker 2: one will love us ever as deeply as our parents
Speaker 2: loved us.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I think it's hard for us to accept
Speaker 1: people who don't love us right if you're confusing and
Speaker 1: hard to understand. So maybe there's a thing of loving
Speaker 1: too much in some case.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, that's what I mean. That's exactly it. That's exactly
Speaker 2: that a gift can be a gap, and a gap
Speaker 2: can be a gift. It's very dependent on how we
Speaker 2: have perceived it and how we've processed it.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your ar is a monk? Three years
Speaker 1: in all you were in business school and you had
Speaker 1: somebody come and talk to you. All. Who was that? Again?
Speaker 2: It was a monk?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you thought, Hey, that sounds like a good life,
Speaker 1: like you know, the life of a monk. Wait, what
Speaker 1: how did how? I'm curious, like what appeal to you
Speaker 1: about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was at a point in my life and
Speaker 2: I still have this today. I think it's why I
Speaker 2: do my podcast and why I interview people. I think
Speaker 2: I fell in love with studying and observing humans in
Speaker 2: my teens, and so I was reading everything from Martin
Speaker 2: Luther King to Malcolm X, David Beckham to Drain the
Speaker 2: Rob Johnson like I was reading autobiographies and biographies, and
Speaker 2: even till this day, biopics are my favorite type of movies,
Speaker 2: whether it's Bohemian Rhapsody about Queen or whether it's Oppenheimer
Speaker 2: This Year. Like, I love movie, I love learning about
Speaker 2: fascinating people.
Speaker 1: I'll have to give you my memoir.
Speaker 2: Absolutely I would love to read it. And to me,
Speaker 2: that's kind of how I've always been. And then my
Speaker 2: friends invited me to hear a monk speak, and I
Speaker 2: didn't really know too much about monks, so I wasn't
Speaker 2: feeling inspired or excited because this wasn't someone I knew
Speaker 2: of and not someone I recognized. But my friends were
Speaker 2: very persuasive and they said to me, you know, let's
Speaker 2: just go along to this event. And I said, well,
Speaker 2: as long as we go to a bar afterwards, then
Speaker 2: I'll come along. So I went along to this event
Speaker 2: not expecting anything, and what really impressed me was here
Speaker 2: was a man with an Indian accent, wearing robes and
Speaker 2: of Indian descent, sitting and talking so comfortably in a
Speaker 2: college room in London, with no anxiety, no nerves, no qualms,
Speaker 2: no feeling of like he didn't belong. And I saw
Speaker 2: someone who is so confident in their own skin. And now,
Speaker 2: upon reflection, I always realized that I think at that
Speaker 2: point in my life I had met or seen people
Speaker 2: who were rich and famous and beauty full and powerful
Speaker 2: and strong, but I don't think i'd ever met anyone
Speaker 2: who is truly happy or content as they were, and
Speaker 2: he was, and there was something inside of me that
Speaker 2: just said, I want that, Like, that's what I want
Speaker 2: to feel, that's what I want to experience. That seems
Speaker 2: like a worthy pursuit. And often people will say, well,
Speaker 2: did you have something in you or you know, how
Speaker 2: did you have that sense at eighteen? And I would say,
Speaker 2: I don't think the credit goes to me. I think
Speaker 2: the credit goes to him. And I still know him today.
Speaker 2: He's a dear friend and mentor in my life, and
Speaker 2: he still carries that presence when anyone meets him. He
Speaker 2: has this magnetic energy because of his deep spiritual practice
Speaker 2: that can take away all types of barriers. And so
Speaker 2: for me, the credit goes to his presence and his aura,
Speaker 2: far more than my qualification at the time, which I
Speaker 2: don't think I had much of.
Speaker 1: So you're studying business, then you decide I'm going to
Speaker 1: move to India, right.
Speaker 2: So not immediately, I spent the next because I was
Speaker 2: at college. I spent the next summers in Christmases visiting
Speaker 2: him in India, and I was also interning at corporate
Speaker 2: companies in London. And then when I graduated, that's when
Speaker 2: I made the decision that I would prefer to live
Speaker 2: as a monk than in the corporate world, which were
Speaker 2: my two choices pretty much, and I felt so much
Speaker 2: more drawn to a life of mental mastery and service
Speaker 2: as opposed to a life of getting a job in
Speaker 2: the traditional sense. And so I traded my suits for
Speaker 2: robes and went off to live as a monk across
Speaker 2: India and the UK and Europe for three years. We
Speaker 2: would travel as well, often encouraged to come back to
Speaker 2: the UK to serve where we were from and connect
Speaker 2: with people. And it was truly one of the most
Speaker 2: beautiful experiences in my life that I cherished so deeply.
Speaker 2: And I was just at the monastery last week. I
Speaker 2: was in India visiting again. I go back every year
Speaker 2: to reconnect and reground myself.
Speaker 1: So obviously it was incredibly formative. But you ultimately decided
Speaker 1: that wasn't the life you wanted. Before you tell me
Speaker 1: why that was the case, I'm curious, what do you
Speaker 1: do when you're a month? What is the day and
Speaker 1: the life of a monk?
Speaker 2: Like, so you wake up at four am?
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm out on that. I did that for too
Speaker 1: many years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can imagine, I can imagine you did. So
Speaker 2: you wake up at four am. There's collective meditation and
Speaker 2: prayers from four thirty till about five point thirty, and
Speaker 2: then there are a couple of hours or two hours
Speaker 2: of personal meditation. Then there's more collective meditation than there's
Speaker 2: more private meditation.
Speaker 1: And that's a lot to meditate.
Speaker 2: That takes you all the way up to breakfast, and
Speaker 2: there's a wisdom class and then the rest of the
Speaker 2: day looks different. It can be a mix of chores,
Speaker 2: more meditation, philanthropic work, service work, going out and serving,
Speaker 2: especially in India, serving villagers, serving the homeless, interacting, so
Speaker 2: there's a lot of service work as well, and that's
Speaker 2: the path. That's why I chose the path that I did,
Speaker 2: because half of it was in silence and for the self,
Speaker 2: and the other half of it was service. And I
Speaker 2: felt that that felt like a balance that made sense
Speaker 2: to my you know, Western ideology as well of I
Speaker 2: wanted to actually do something as well. I didn't just
Speaker 2: want to be, And so that balance was of being
Speaker 2: and doing that seemed to work very well.
Speaker 1: And ultimately, why did you decide that this was not
Speaker 1: the life you wanted to choose.
Speaker 2: Well. I think what's really interesting is that the goal
Speaker 2: of the amount of time you spend as a monk,
Speaker 2: one of the goals is self awareness. You gain so
Speaker 2: much insight into how the mind works, into your triggers,
Speaker 2: your weaknesses, your imperfections, your flaws. And the biggest conclusion
Speaker 2: I came to was I wasn't a monk in that
Speaker 2: my self awareness showed me that I'm quite independent, I'm
Speaker 2: quite rebellious, I have a certain way that I like
Speaker 2: to do things. And that was quite humbling at that time,
Speaker 2: because you've kind of geared yourself up to do this thing,
Speaker 2: and you know, earlier you mentioned that I've had such
Speaker 2: an interesting or fascinating journey. When I chose to become
Speaker 2: a monk. It wasn't met with that emotion or experience
Speaker 2: from my family or extended family. Most people thought I
Speaker 2: was wasting my life, I was throwing away my education,
Speaker 2: I was committing career suicide, I was letting my parents down,
Speaker 2: and I'd probably been brainwashed. And so it wasn't met
Speaker 2: with this, oh my gosh, this is going to be
Speaker 2: such an amazing life experience, how beautiful. It was met
Speaker 2: with cynicism and skepticism.
Speaker 1: Well, you can understand why your parents were a little like,
Speaker 1: wait a second, jape.
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely I can. And it's just interesting how something
Speaker 2: that was initially so seen that way has become something
Speaker 2: that is so interesting and fascinating.
Speaker 1: I also think interest in meditation and this kind of
Speaker 1: idea of a life of purpose and service and community.
Speaker 1: I think now probably much more so when you were
Speaker 1: even eighteen, people are craving that, so I think in
Speaker 1: a way it's almost more understandable today in the environment
Speaker 1: we're living in now. Absolutely absolutely so, you decided I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be a monk anymore. Was your mentor
Speaker 1: upset by the way when you decided to leave the monastery?
Speaker 2: It was more the other way around. I was upset
Speaker 2: with myself. I felt pretty embarrassed. I felt a bit ashamed.
Speaker 2: I felt a little bit of guilt because I had
Speaker 2: put all that pressure on myself that I was going
Speaker 2: to do this for the rest of my life, and
Speaker 2: so leaving was probably one of the most difficult things
Speaker 2: I have had to do. And I'd say my teachers
Speaker 2: made it easier than they did harder. I got some
Speaker 2: beautiful advice. I remember talking to my mentor and saying
Speaker 2: to him that I'm not going to be able to
Speaker 2: pursue this path anymore, and that I was worried that
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure if it was the right decision. I
Speaker 2: was actually quite uncertain about if it was the right move.
Speaker 2: I was scared that actually I may regress and move
Speaker 2: backward in my journey that I'd tried to take steps
Speaker 2: forward in. And he said to me, said, Jay, you
Speaker 2: know when people go to college. Some people stay at
Speaker 2: the college and they become professors and researchers, and some
Speaker 2: people leave and they get jobs. And he said, which
Speaker 2: one's better? And I said, well, it doesn't matter. It
Speaker 2: depends on the person. And he said exactly the same.
Speaker 2: He said, some people join the monastery and they become monks,
Speaker 2: and then they stay and they become senior monks, and
Speaker 2: some people leave and they go off and live their life.
Speaker 2: And they reminded me that leaving didn't mean I had
Speaker 2: to leave the philosophy or the tradition or the practice.
Speaker 2: It was simply leaving an external practice of it. And
Speaker 2: I think that that was very comforting at a time
Speaker 2: when I was definitely feeling anxious and confused about what
Speaker 2: I would do. When I went back, everyone around me
Speaker 2: would and they did say I told you so, we
Speaker 2: knew you wouldn't make it. Oh, and have you heard
Speaker 2: about your friend who's now dating that wonderful girl? And
Speaker 2: have you seen that person who's got promoted now? And oh,
Speaker 2: did you know I so and so just moved into
Speaker 2: that new apartment And all of a sudden, you're hearing
Speaker 2: about the great wins and successes and progress that all
Speaker 2: your friends and family and others have made, and how
Speaker 2: you've been left behind. And so I came back to
Speaker 2: a world that was reminding me of potentially how I'd
Speaker 2: wasted three years of my life, as opposed to a
Speaker 2: celebration of coming back.
Speaker 1: After a quick break. How Jay's three years as a
Speaker 1: monk laid the foundation for the life and businesses he's built.
Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a
Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and
Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,
Speaker 1: Wake Upcall by going to Katiecuric dot com. Now more
Speaker 1: of my conversation with Jay Shetty. It seems to me
Speaker 1: your time as a monk really informed who you are
Speaker 1: today and set you on a path to be who
Speaker 1: you wanted to be ultimately, and you are living a
Speaker 1: life of service for your podcast, your books, and you've
Speaker 1: created kind of this space for yourself that I don't
Speaker 1: think you would have not that I know everything about you,
Speaker 1: say shety, but you wouldn't have done it if you
Speaker 1: had not had those three years of experience. And can
Speaker 1: you just explain how you got from failing monk school
Speaker 1: I'm kidding, from deciding you weren't going to be a
Speaker 1: monk to creating honestly, And I don't even want to
Speaker 1: call it a business because I feel like that you
Speaker 1: can demeans it in a way. But how did you
Speaker 1: get from there to here?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I want to change that too. I think
Speaker 2: I empathize with what you're saying there, but it would
Speaker 2: be nice to redeem the word business too, you know.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes the word business gets a bad rap.
Speaker 1: But I almost found maybe enterprise, Yeah sounds a little less,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but the journey was, at least at
Speaker 2: the time felt slow and confusing, and now looking feels
Speaker 2: perfectly aligned. And I'm always remembering that beautiful quote from
Speaker 2: Steve Jobs where he said that you can't connect the
Speaker 2: dots looking forwards, you and you can looking backwards. And
Speaker 2: when I look back at that time, I first order,
Speaker 2: I just need to pay my bills because I was
Speaker 2: living with my parents again, and you know, I couldn't
Speaker 2: just depend on them for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to find a way, and I thought
Speaker 2: I'd have to go back into a job that made sense.
Speaker 2: So I was applying to consulting firms because that felt
Speaker 2: like where I would have ended up previously. I was
Speaker 2: rejected from forty companies before even an interview. No one
Speaker 2: would even get me an interview through the door because surprise, surprise,
Speaker 2: no one wants to hire a former monk on their resume.
Speaker 2: Like people are like, well, what are your transferable skills?
Speaker 2: Being silent and sitting still? We don't need that in
Speaker 2: our company. So I wouldn't get an interview, and I
Speaker 2: was getting really really anxious that, Okay, I may have
Speaker 2: made the worst decision, because how am I going to
Speaker 2: survive in the real world now. And then finally I
Speaker 2: got a job at Accentua, which I'm extremely grateful for.
Speaker 2: If they didn't give me a shot, I don't know
Speaker 2: who would have and they put me on their grad program.
Speaker 2: I was age twenty five and everyone else was age
Speaker 2: twenty one, but I took it. I was happy to
Speaker 2: work my way up and figure it out. And so
Speaker 2: I spent two years there.
Speaker 1: And what was your job there?
Speaker 2: My job there? I joined as an analyst and then
Speaker 2: graduated on to become a consultant. I worked on everything
Speaker 2: at the time, from digital strategy to social media. That
Speaker 2: was the growing rising tide in the world in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 2: especially in that B to B space or the business space.
Speaker 2: And I was actually gaining confidence because Actensia prioritized mental
Speaker 2: health inside the organization in a really phenomenal way.
Speaker 1: I was going to say. They were very early.
Speaker 2: Absolutely early adopters and really valuing trying to help people
Speaker 2: and you know, figure it out. And when they discovered
Speaker 2: that I had learned meditation and about my background, they
Speaker 2: encouraged me to do that in the workplace. So I
Speaker 2: would lead meditations in rooms probably the size of this maybe.
Speaker 1: Very small for you all who can't see it.
Speaker 2: Maybe two people would show up and I would be
Speaker 2: so excited to share meditation with two people. And I
Speaker 2: would keep doing that, and every week more and more
Speaker 2: people would come. Different parts of the company would invite me.
Speaker 2: I would travel around the company to teach meditation and mindfulness.
Speaker 2: And then once I was asked to teach my entire cohort,
Speaker 2: my colleagues of a thousand people at our summer event.
Speaker 2: And I was an employee inside the company. I didn't
Speaker 2: have a brand or I didn't have a business or
Speaker 2: a website or anything or at all. I was an
Speaker 2: employee and that gave me so much confidence that what
Speaker 2: I had learned had so much value in the real world,
Speaker 2: because people would come up to me and talk to
Speaker 2: me about how the sessions had helped them and help
Speaker 2: them get through a really tough time or overcome burnout.
Speaker 2: And I was receiving all this positive feedback from my colleagues,
Speaker 2: and I thought to myself, well, maybe this should reach
Speaker 2: more people, Like how beautiful would it be if this
Speaker 2: would connect with more people? And I'd been then doing
Speaker 2: an event in the city of London. I would invite
Speaker 2: whoever would come, and teaching and sharing has always been
Speaker 2: a part of my fascination. I did this even at college.
Speaker 2: Ever since I met the Monk. I was giving small
Speaker 2: seminars and lectures about everything he'd teach me to my
Speaker 2: fellow students at university. And so I thought to myself,
Speaker 2: I want this to reach more people. And so I
Speaker 2: created a plan to pitch my video series idea to
Speaker 2: media companies in London. Applied to ten of them. They
Speaker 2: all turned me down. And then I networked with three
Speaker 2: executives and I asked them to give me a break,
Speaker 2: and I said, I don't care what you pay me.
Speaker 2: I will do this for free. I just want to
Speaker 2: create these videos and this series and maybe it's a show,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. And I got three answers. You're too old.
Speaker 2: I was twenty eight years old, you're too late, and
Speaker 2: you're too unqualified. And I didn't have a communications background
Speaker 2: or I didn't have a degree in it, so people
Speaker 2: thought I didn't have the skills. And so I was
Speaker 2: feeling like, oh, well, here we are again, like this
Speaker 2: isn't going anywhere. How is this going to build? And
Speaker 2: I ended up at a ethnic minority TV presenter workshop
Speaker 2: in London. So again it was a room probably triple
Speaker 2: the size of this room, five to six brown people
Speaker 2: and black people in this room being trained in presenting.
Speaker 2: I went there to see if I could develop the skills.
Speaker 2: And when I went there, they said, heja, you actually
Speaker 2: have some really good skills. I said, great, give me
Speaker 2: a job in media and they said, well, there's no
Speaker 2: jobs in media. And I said, wow, So you invited
Speaker 2: five to six brown and black people here to tell
Speaker 2: us that there's no jobs in media. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: And this was lest year twenty This was twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: all right, so nine years ago, and think of what
Speaker 1: they would say today. But go on.
Speaker 2: So then they said to me, they said, well, why
Speaker 2: don't you start a YouTube channel? And I hadn't really
Speaker 2: considered social media then because I never really I didn't
Speaker 2: really understand it fully. I didn't know what it could do.
Speaker 2: I didn't, you know, I didn't have any case studies
Speaker 2: or examples in that way. And I said to them,
Speaker 2: I said, well that works for Justin Bieber, like that's
Speaker 2: not going to work for me. And I got a point.
Speaker 2: And I'm reminded of this quote often and I still
Speaker 2: live by it today. Thomas Edison said that when you
Speaker 2: believe you've exhausted all options, remember this you haven't. And
Speaker 2: I live by that today. Whenever I feel I've knocked
Speaker 2: on every door, I realized there's still one more way through.
Speaker 2: When I feel like I've broken through every door, I
Speaker 2: feel like you have to realize you might have to
Speaker 2: jump over a wall. Like when I feel like I've
Speaker 2: pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed and running out
Speaker 2: of energy, I know that I need to push once more.
Speaker 2: And so I started a YouTube channel because I didn't
Speaker 2: have another choice. So I didn't come into social media
Speaker 2: ever thinking social media would be the way I would
Speaker 2: connect with people. I came to social media because I
Speaker 2: didn't know what else to do to connect with people,
Speaker 2: and so I started. I made my first video in
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, got like one hundred views, and I was
Speaker 2: over the moon. I was so happy. And as I
Speaker 2: continued to make those videos, my boss at Accentua, well
Speaker 2: not even my boss, our global HR leader, saw them
Speaker 2: on the intro at the internal social media and website,
Speaker 2: and she showed it to Ariana Huffington at Davos, and
Speaker 2: Arianna Huffington loved the videos, so she sent Danny Shaye
Speaker 2: and Dan Katz, who became two really dear friends who
Speaker 2: were her core people at the time things still are now,
Speaker 2: sent them over to meet me in London and they said,
Speaker 2: and I went there ready to ask Danny for a job.
Speaker 2: So I said, Danny, you've got to give me a job.
Speaker 2: I want to do this for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: I'll do it for free. I don't care. I'm here
Speaker 2: to work. And he said to me, he said slow down.
Speaker 2: He said, we're going to share your videos on the
Speaker 2: Huffington Post page, and depending on how they do, we'll
Speaker 2: see how this goes. They put out the first video.
Speaker 2: The first video did a million views in seven days,
Speaker 2: and I was over the moon. I was just like,
Speaker 2: I can't believe this, and they were like, yeah, that's
Speaker 2: okay for us, Okay. Then then then they put out
Speaker 2: the second video, and the second video did a million
Speaker 2: views in twenty four hours, and they go, Okay, there's
Speaker 2: something happening here. Then we put out the third video.
Speaker 2: The third video did a million views in sixteen hours,
Speaker 2: and then it just went from there and those four
Speaker 2: as we made probably have done around two hundred million
Speaker 2: views across different platforms at the time.
Speaker 1: By the way, can I just interject and say, God
Speaker 1: bless Arianna Huffington, who I love, who is one of
Speaker 1: the most generous people on the planet, and gosh, I
Speaker 1: wonder do you ever think she If Arianna hadn't seen something.
Speaker 2: It would have taken so much longer, and maybe it
Speaker 2: would never have happened.
Speaker 1: As as you know, Foster still see Arianna all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope you send her flowers every day.
Speaker 2: She knows how much she knows how much I love
Speaker 2: her and I appreciate her so deeply, and I'm so
Speaker 2: grateful to her, And I think everyone needs that. Everyone
Speaker 2: needs someone like that who allows their work and their
Speaker 2: world to be seen and put out there.
Speaker 1: But how wonderful she saw something in you, right, And
Speaker 1: I always think it only takes one person to see
Speaker 1: a spark or something in another person to just give
Speaker 1: them a chance. Yeah, you think of how much untapped
Speaker 1: talent is out there, but they just haven't had someone say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to give you this opportunity. Absolutely, and I'm
Speaker 1: so happy she did because you went from I guess
Speaker 1: those videos on Huffington Post to your podcast, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: tell me what happened after that, because your trajectory must
Speaker 1: have been straight up.
Speaker 2: Well, it's never that easy. There's always so many pivots
Speaker 2: to the story. So yeah, I'm over the moon that
Speaker 2: my videos are doing well. And then I messaged and
Speaker 2: email Danny Shay every day for thirty days and begged
Speaker 2: him for a job. I said, come on, these stats
Speaker 2: have to prove to you that I should be doing
Speaker 2: this full time. And I messaged him every day and I Saidanny,
Speaker 2: I'm going to message you for the rest of my
Speaker 2: life until you give me a job.
Speaker 1: He just wanted you to stop messaging.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Danny goes all right. And then Danny and
Speaker 2: Ariana figured out my visa. I moved to the United
Speaker 2: States and moved to New York in twenty sixteen, and
Speaker 2: they gave me a role at the Huffington Post. And
Speaker 2: the most funny thing happened the day I landed in
Speaker 2: New York. My first day was Ariana's last day because
Speaker 2: she left to start Thrive, and it was I was
Speaker 2: at her leaving party on my arrival day.
Speaker 1: That's so funny, and it was.
Speaker 2: So. I was there for six months, and then I
Speaker 2: went off in twenty seventeen to build my own world.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't easy, you know. Twenty seventeen was a
Speaker 2: year of me figuring out how to do this and
Speaker 2: how it would land, and what we would build and
Speaker 2: content was in its early stages, and you.
Speaker 1: Know it was intermediation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you couldn't monetize it immediately. You're spending money creating content.
Speaker 2: It was a really interesting year and I really really
Speaker 2: wanted to do more long form content. I was making
Speaker 2: these four minute videos, and these videos at the time
Speaker 2: were doing two hundred, three hundred and one hundred million
Speaker 2: views of video. But I really felt that I had
Speaker 2: more to share and more stories to tell, and there
Speaker 2: was more to understand.
Speaker 1: And also more people you wanted to talk to, right,
Speaker 1: absolute kind of going back to your monk.
Speaker 2: To study people, to study people. And so I ended
Speaker 2: up pitching again to another bunch of podcast networks my
Speaker 2: podcast idea, and the feedback I got was we're not
Speaker 2: interested or j people like listening to you for four minutes.
Speaker 2: No one wants to listen to you for an hour.
Speaker 2: And I had a company that pulled I had a
Speaker 2: company that pulled out two weeks before we launched on
Speaker 2: purpose because they felt it wasn't going to be a
Speaker 2: big podcast.
Speaker 1: In those words, do you ever call those people and
Speaker 1: the only petty one.
Speaker 2: No, I'll tell you why, and I'll tell you why.
Speaker 2: So that thought has crossed my mind, I would be
Speaker 2: lying if that thought hadn't crossed my mind. The thoughts
Speaker 2: crossed my mind. I'll tell you why they did me
Speaker 2: the biggest favor in the world, Because I own my work,
Speaker 2: like through and through, we own everything we've ever created.
Speaker 2: I've they gave me the biggest blessing of my life.
Speaker 2: We didn't sign any bad contracts. We didn't sign any
Speaker 2: bad deals. At that point, I would have written half
Speaker 2: my life away for an opportunity. We didn't. And so
Speaker 2: I'm extremely grateful to everyone who said no, because it
Speaker 2: meant that we built our own platform from scratch, with
Speaker 2: our own investment and our own hard work.
Speaker 1: So now you've written two New York Times bestsellers, you
Speaker 1: have your podcast which is enormously popular called on Purpose,
Speaker 1: which is very clever. Purpose is your bag. And I'm curious,
Speaker 1: as somebody who I consider myself a pretty good communicator,
Speaker 1: and I'd love to learn from you what you think
Speaker 1: makes your podcasts so effective and how I could do better.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure I can't give you any tips.
Speaker 2: That's very no.
Speaker 1: I think you could actually and I think part of
Speaker 1: a really important aspect of life. And you must agree
Speaker 1: with this is to always want to learn and grow
Speaker 1: absolutely and never feel like you can improve or get
Speaker 1: better at something. So I say this with not false modesty,
Speaker 1: but with genuine curiosity. Tell me a little bit about
Speaker 1: your approach with guests.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think everyone creates a different atmosphere. I'm
Speaker 2: communicating differently today because of the energy you've created. So
Speaker 2: I'm far more subdued today. My tone is far more
Speaker 2: calm and still and peaceful than it often is.
Speaker 1: Am I overwhelming?
Speaker 2: No, not at all. It's because you've created a really
Speaker 2: still environment in this room and I can sense that,
Speaker 2: and therefore I'm responding to that in a positive way,
Speaker 2: and it's bringing out a type of communication in me
Speaker 2: that requires this type of stillness to come out. And
Speaker 2: that's something you've crafted and created.
Speaker 3: And physical surroundings, not not even the physical surroundings, because
Speaker 3: I think the way you talk and the pace at
Speaker 3: which you talk informs me as to how this conversation
Speaker 3: is flowing.
Speaker 2: I was on a podcast earlier today and we were
Speaker 2: talking really fast, and I was talking really fast, and
Speaker 2: it was really animated. I was using my hands and
Speaker 2: my tone's going up and downwards. Today, I'm with you
Speaker 2: I'm not there, and that it's not a good or
Speaker 2: bad thing. I think the beauty of podcasting, or the
Speaker 2: beauty of any interview format is the interviewer gets to
Speaker 2: guide the tone and the pace and the quality of
Speaker 2: the conversation. And I think whether you talk fast or slow,
Speaker 2: it's not about the pace, It's that both are creating
Speaker 2: the environment right for the community and the audience. And
Speaker 2: so for me with my podcast, my goal was always
Speaker 2: to create a deep, safe space for raw vulnerability and
Speaker 2: for people to share things that they were uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: With and they do and they do. Tom Holland shared
Speaker 1: something very personal about his drinking.
Speaker 2: Yes yeah, his sobriety journey, which was really beautiful of
Speaker 2: him to share. I know so many people message me
Speaker 2: after that podcast and told him too, saying just how
Speaker 2: much that's helped them in their journey. And that was
Speaker 2: my goal. My goal was I wanted people that you
Speaker 2: recognized to share a part of themselves that you'd never seen,
Speaker 2: or I wanted people you didn't recognize to share insights
Speaker 2: that you'd never heard. And my hope was that the
Speaker 2: audience in our community would feel so seen, heard and
Speaker 2: understood because the guest felt seen, heard, and understood, and
Speaker 2: that would translate to the people at home. And so
Speaker 2: my podcast was not mental or technical, or theoretical or philosophical.
Speaker 2: It was deeply emotional and inside our hearts. And that
Speaker 2: was my goal, was to lead a podcast from the heart,
Speaker 2: not the mind.
Speaker 1: You've had so many well known people. I'm curious who
Speaker 1: has surprised you in that environment, who has been very
Speaker 1: different than you thought they would be.
Speaker 2: I'd say everyone's been different in the way I thought
Speaker 2: they'd be, because everyone's far more Everyone has so much
Speaker 2: more depth than I think of that with humanity in general,
Speaker 2: I feel everyone has a store, everyone has so much
Speaker 2: more depth than we uncover. One person that comes to
Speaker 2: mind immediately is Brian Chesky, the found I love Brian too.
Speaker 2: I absolutely adore.
Speaker 1: He started Airbnb for yeah, the.
Speaker 2: Founder of Brian Chesky, one of the founders of Airbnb,
Speaker 2: founded it with his two friends and he came on
Speaker 2: the show. And what I love about him is that
Speaker 2: he's just not a tech founder's he's an artist. He's
Speaker 2: a right yeah, he's a design think right. And what
Speaker 2: I loved about that episode with him is after the
Speaker 2: interview told me he's so used to being asked, what
Speaker 2: does it feel like to IPO or build a you know,
Speaker 2: mega billion dollar company, And we didn't talk about that,
Speaker 2: And that's always my goal. My goal is to ask
Speaker 2: you the question that you never get asked because people
Speaker 2: may not want you to go that deep, or they
Speaker 2: may not think you're able to go that deep. But
Speaker 2: I believe everyone is able to go that deep. And
Speaker 2: you'll see if anyone watches it or listens to the episode,
Speaker 2: you see Brian almost walking us through the visions of
Speaker 2: what he's building in a company in his mind, and
Speaker 2: it turns into somewhat of a collaborative visualization session as
Speaker 2: opposed to an interview. And it was just a beautiful
Speaker 2: experience and we both walked away becoming really good friends
Speaker 2: off of it, and it just created a beautiful relationship.
Speaker 2: So I think people like that surprised me in a
Speaker 2: positive sense. I knew he could go there, but surprised
Speaker 2: me in the sense of he was so willing to
Speaker 2: go there, so vulnerable to share his own journey.
Speaker 1: You officiated Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez's wedding.
Speaker 2: What, Yeah, it was a really fun experience.
Speaker 1: How did that happen?
Speaker 2: Share Jennifer Lops came on the podcast in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: at the beginning of twenty twenty, and that's when we
Speaker 2: first connected and we really got along. We hit it off,
Speaker 2: and then we stayed in touch and we were connected,
Speaker 2: and then she invited me to officiate weddings at the
Speaker 2: launch of her Marry Me musical performance, so there were
Speaker 2: people from her community that her and Maluma were the
Speaker 2: witnesses and I was officiating the weddings. We stayed connected,
Speaker 2: had lots of conversations, and then when I was asked
Speaker 2: to do this, I mean I was getting invited to
Speaker 2: someone's wedding is pretty spectacular, let alone having to officiate,
Speaker 2: and I was the most nervous, anxious, and you know,
Speaker 2: anxious wreck that I'd ever been because I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: like this is a lot of pressure and it's pretty
Speaker 2: hard to do something like this. But we had a
Speaker 2: really beautiful chat to really understand the type of ceremony
Speaker 2: they wanted, and then on the day it was just
Speaker 2: one of the most surreal experiences of my life because
Speaker 2: I love love, I love everything to do with romance,
Speaker 2: and I'm having the experience of like am I in
Speaker 2: a movie or am I in reality because I've only
Speaker 2: ever seen weddings like this in a movie, and I'm like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: this is real. Get back into reality, and then just
Speaker 2: trying to convince myself to not cry because I love
Speaker 2: crying at weddings, like I will cry at everyone's wedding
Speaker 2: because I love love, and so the whole time while
Speaker 2: then standing right next to me and he's shedding a
Speaker 2: tear and Jennifer's walking down the aisle and the dress
Speaker 2: and everyone's looking at her, and I'm just like, Jay,
Speaker 2: do not cry. This is not about you. Do not cry,
Speaker 2: and just holding it together the whole time. But it was.
Speaker 2: It was really a beautiful experience. I was so grateful
Speaker 2: for the opportunity and it will truly always remain as
Speaker 2: one of the most you know, special memories that will
Speaker 2: cherish for a long long time.
Speaker 1: When we come back. How Jay balances his desire for
Speaker 1: death and purpose with a life that's gotten pretty snazzy.
Speaker 1: We're back with Jay Shetty. I'm curious, since you have
Speaker 1: become friends with a lot of fancy people and have
Speaker 1: a lot of well known folks on your podcast, does
Speaker 1: that ever come into conflict with sort of your core
Speaker 1: message or has it made people look at you differently
Speaker 1: and maybe do sometimes because of the fact that you're
Speaker 1: well known and celebrity and fame come with a lot
Speaker 1: of good things but also some tough things. Has that
Speaker 1: been hard for you to balance in a way?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that all my close friendships in
Speaker 2: that space have originated from really organic, deep conversations. So
Speaker 2: any friends that I have in and I'm assuming what
Speaker 2: you're referring to as celebrity friends are all because all
Speaker 2: of our conversations are based on really deep, thoughtful ideals,
Speaker 2: And so for me, it's actually one of the greatest
Speaker 2: joys of my life because I get to talk about
Speaker 2: what I care about with people who care about what
Speaker 2: we're talking about and are trying in their own way
Speaker 2: to grow, to improve, to learn to And it's been
Speaker 2: among the greatest joys of my life to get to
Speaker 2: know people with that much depth, because it requires so
Speaker 2: much vulnerability and openness from both sides, and so that's
Speaker 2: been again something that I cherish for the rest of
Speaker 2: my life, and I believe I've made friends for life.
Speaker 2: I think on the podcast too. For me, like we
Speaker 2: talked about earlier, I've always been fascinated by studying the
Speaker 2: lives of incredible journeys and the fact that I get
Speaker 2: to sit with those.
Speaker 1: People and accomplished people who have you know, unique talents too, right, yeah.
Speaker 2: And accomplished different things in that. You know, we've had
Speaker 2: Lewis Hamilton, who's you know, potentially the greatest Formula one
Speaker 2: racer of all time. And you know, Lewis is a
Speaker 2: deep meditator, and he's a deep practitioner, a focus and
Speaker 2: he's such a disciplined individual. So I also don't think
Speaker 2: it's extrapolating how did you become successful? It's almost like,
Speaker 2: how did you become present? And how did you become focused?
Speaker 2: And these are all skills that we all need, so
Speaker 2: to me, I'm extrapolating more than how.
Speaker 1: Did you not get screwed up by your success? Right?
Speaker 2: Exactly? Exactly like how of these people like Lewis is
Speaker 2: a wonderful human And that's what I'm intrigued by, is
Speaker 2: how someone maintains their ego in that space. And so
Speaker 2: even the lessons were extrapolate and kind of going back
Speaker 2: to the Brian Cheskey point, I'm not really interested in
Speaker 2: asking him, Hey, how did you become worth x billion dollars,
Speaker 2: like that's really not I don't really care about that.
Speaker 2: I don't ask questions like that on the show. All
Speaker 2: the questions are about humanity and mindset and well being.
Speaker 2: And then, of course it is challenging. I think that
Speaker 2: it's natural when people see you interacting with certain groups
Speaker 2: or certain people. You know, people have assumptions and judgments,
Speaker 2: and it's never easy being judged. And I've always said,
Speaker 2: whenever anyone judges me, or you hear any criticism or
Speaker 2: whatever it may be, what I'd love to do is
Speaker 2: you'd love to just sit down with each of those
Speaker 2: people and just spend time with them, like have some
Speaker 2: tea with them, and just talk to them. And if
Speaker 2: only you could do that with a million people, you'd
Speaker 2: have to probably see what one hundred people every day
Speaker 2: for the rest of your life, and you probably won't
Speaker 2: even come close, and so it's really hard. I think
Speaker 2: that's what I find challenging, not hearing judgment. I respect
Speaker 2: people's opinions, and I recognize the paradoxical nature externally of
Speaker 2: what something can look like. I recognize the contradiction externally
Speaker 2: of what people may see. But to me, I don't
Speaker 2: judge that I totally respect that, but I can't do
Speaker 2: anything about it, And so you almost sit there and
Speaker 2: allow for it to exist and recognize that you can
Speaker 2: only continue to do the work that's close to your heart.
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know. I know your most recent book
Speaker 1: is The Eight Rules of Love, How to Find It,
Speaker 1: Keep It, and Let It Go. And you previously wrote
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty Think like a Monk, and both books
Speaker 1: have done very well. Does anyone ever challenge you and say,
Speaker 1: like Jay Shetty, you're a great guy, but how you know?
Speaker 1: How the hell do you know about this stuff? And
Speaker 1: I guess the question is how did you you accumulate
Speaker 1: such wisdom? And do you always feel confident in your
Speaker 1: ability to be what is in essence a spiritual teacher.
Speaker 2: I think I've tried to live my life in a
Speaker 2: way to get as far away from that title as possible.
Speaker 2: And I think partly why.
Speaker 1: The title of spiritual teacher? Yeah, yeah, that you don't like,
Speaker 1: you feel like guru is really misunderstood.
Speaker 2: I think guru is just a very sacred word in
Speaker 2: the East. You know, a guru is someone who promises
Speaker 2: to dedicate their life to uplifting you out of the
Speaker 2: ocean of material misery. Like it's a very deep position.
Speaker 2: It's almost like mother or father or even like godfather
Speaker 2: or you know, like that godmother like. It has a
Speaker 2: very weighty responsibility that comes with it. So you can't
Speaker 2: possibly be a guru for the world because then you'd
Speaker 2: have to promise to uplift each and every person. It's
Speaker 2: almost a vow. And so I respect the word gurul
Speaker 2: and it comes with a lot of weight for me.
Speaker 2: But I think that I'm more trying to be everyone's
Speaker 2: spiritual friend as opposed to a spiritual teacher. And I
Speaker 2: think that's because I think the challenge is that teachers
Speaker 2: will always let us down because no one's perfect, and
Speaker 2: often teaches in their attempt to try and be perfect
Speaker 2: or present themselves as perfect and end up letting people
Speaker 2: down anyway. And so one of the reasons why I
Speaker 2: enjoy dressing fashionably, why I enjoy living the life I do,
Speaker 2: is to kind of take that away, and I'd rather
Speaker 2: be a round spiritual friend and not try to be
Speaker 2: someone else. But in terms of the wisdom, as you
Speaker 2: were saying about writing the books, and if I feel
Speaker 2: confident about it, I feel confident about my research and
Speaker 2: ability to connect ideas more than I do in my teachings,
Speaker 2: and I think the idea of what I'm trying to
Speaker 2: do in both my books. So whenever I think like
Speaker 2: a monk, think like a monk is a deep reset
Speaker 2: study in how monks live. So you'll hear me quote
Speaker 2: from Christian monks and Buddhist monks and Hindu monks, and
Speaker 2: you'll hear me share these stories and teachings that have
Speaker 2: existed for thousands and thousands of years. So my confidence
Speaker 2: isn't in the fact I lived as a monk for
Speaker 2: three years. My confidence is in the fact that this
Speaker 2: tradition that has lasted thousands of years must have some
Speaker 2: serious validity for it to last that long. There's very
Speaker 2: few things that have lasted a thousand years alone more
Speaker 2: than that. And the fact that some of these books, texts,
Speaker 2: and wisdom, traditions and practices have been around, I think
Speaker 2: makes me confident that they have validity, especially when I
Speaker 2: can draw parallels with modern science. When I wrote The
Speaker 2: Love Book, a lot of questions are like, well, what
Speaker 2: do you know about love? You have't been married for
Speaker 2: that long. And I think that again, if someone reads
Speaker 2: the book. I'm not teaching from my marriage. The book
Speaker 2: isn't a book that says, hey, I have a really
Speaker 2: successful marriage, why don't you learn from me. It's me
Speaker 2: having spent so much time trying to read and study
Speaker 2: and learn and interviewed couples and spend time with them
Speaker 2: who are older than me, far more wiser than me.
Speaker 2: And my job is to curate, synthesize, and share what
Speaker 2: going back to what you were saying, to often communicate
Speaker 2: ideas that get lost in academic journals and you know,
Speaker 2: college rooms that people may never learn or hear about.
Speaker 2: And so I take confidence in the fact that I
Speaker 2: have a great research method. I trust myself and my
Speaker 2: ability to synthesize and make things simple, accessible and practical.
Speaker 2: But my confidence in the wisdom is because the wisdom
Speaker 2: exists outside of me and before me.
Speaker 1: There's been so much emphasis on self love. I strongly
Speaker 1: advocate for self love. I think it's great, but I wonder,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious how you feel about this, Jay, Can
Speaker 1: you place so much emphasis on self love, self improvement,
Speaker 1: self in general that it precludes you from being of service,
Speaker 1: from caring about other people, from being attuned to other
Speaker 1: people's needs, which has shown to be the true way
Speaker 1: to happiness. You know, I always believe you get what
Speaker 1: you give, and you know, being kind to other people
Speaker 1: is sort of the key to life. How do you
Speaker 1: balance those two things? And I, you know, blah blah.
Speaker 1: I know you can't love other people if you don't
Speaker 1: love yourself, YadA, YadA, YadA. But I sometimes I feel
Speaker 1: like there's so much self focus it prevents people from
Speaker 1: looking outside of themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the beautiful lesson that I learned during
Speaker 2: my time as a monk was that the reason you
Speaker 2: take care of yourself is to serve others. So therefore
Speaker 2: it's symbiotic in that.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like it's symbiotic in our current culture?
Speaker 2: I would say that because culture generally oscillates between extremes,
Speaker 2: we often have to go to one extreme and then
Speaker 2: go to the other to find the middle path. And
Speaker 2: so maybe we lived in a culture where people we're
Speaker 2: just trying to help other people. I don't even know
Speaker 2: if we ever lived there, but let's say let's say
Speaker 2: that we live there, or at least some people did,
Speaker 2: like maybe mothers did. Right, Let's say that we can
Speaker 2: probably agree on that that a lot of mothers maybe
Speaker 2: lived quite.
Speaker 1: A and sacrifice, sacrifice the lot.
Speaker 2: And sacrifice their life. Right, there was a part of
Speaker 2: society that we could agree with that with that one,
Speaker 2: hopefully it's a lot of moms. And so if mothers
Speaker 2: did that, then sometimes I think we have to oscillate
Speaker 2: to the other extreme of okay, just take care of
Speaker 2: yourself now, and then society evolves to recognize, well, actually,
Speaker 2: the reason I take care of myself is so that
Speaker 2: I can extend myself to others. And so I feel
Speaker 2: that that's kind of how I watch things kind of
Speaker 2: evolve in society. I don't think things ever evolve in
Speaker 2: the way you want them to. We kind of do
Speaker 2: do the pendulum swing because we're trying to find the middle.
Speaker 2: We're trying to get that pendulum to land perfectly, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't, and we keep going. It's almost like saying,
Speaker 2: should we hustle or should we meditate? Some people are like,
Speaker 2: if you want to be successfully, you have to hustle,
Speaker 2: and some if you want to be successfully, have to
Speaker 2: meditate to be still, and it's like, well, you actually
Speaker 2: need to do both. But we kind of oscillate between
Speaker 2: the extreme. So I think with everything. I think the
Speaker 2: point is that I'm making is it's the reason you
Speaker 2: take care of yourself is more important than even taking
Speaker 2: care of yourself. So I take care of myself and
Speaker 2: my health and my well being so that I can
Speaker 2: do more for others, as opposed to I'm taking care
Speaker 2: of myself because I'm the most important person in the
Speaker 2: world and nothing else matters. I think that intention makes
Speaker 2: us more hard hearted. And you know, you don't want
Speaker 2: to become more hard hearted. You want to become more
Speaker 2: soft hearted. And when we do hard things, we often
Speaker 2: do just become harder and harder and harder. And the
Speaker 2: goal is to become softer while you do hard things,
Speaker 2: because actually, when you're doing something difficult, the goal is
Speaker 2: you should become more compassionate because you realize how hard
Speaker 2: it is for anyone else to do it. And so
Speaker 2: I think surrender and self love and service should create
Speaker 2: a softer heart because you start recognizing how steep climate
Speaker 2: is for you, and therefore how steep a climate is
Speaker 2: for anyone you're trying to help.
Speaker 1: Tell me about your wife.
Speaker 2: She's a chef, she's a plant based recipe developer, and
Speaker 2: she has a cookbook coming out and that's exciting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's she has her own YouTube. So we tell this
Speaker 2: story I love infest. We tell this story in full
Speaker 2: on my first ever podcast on Purpose of How I
Speaker 2: met my wife, And the short version that I'll tell
Speaker 2: you here is I was in my final year of
Speaker 2: university and I knew I was going to become a monk,
Speaker 2: so I would go to my local temple to serve
Speaker 2: and stay out of trouble. Because as soon as you
Speaker 2: make a commitment thinking you're going to become a monk,
Speaker 2: the allures of life become very amplified. And so I
Speaker 2: was trying to stay out of trouble. And while I
Speaker 2: was trying to stay out of trouble, I was asked
Speaker 2: to show a lady around the temple with services and
Speaker 2: certain chores and certain rituals at the temple. She was
Speaker 2: around my mom's aid age, and so I was showing
Speaker 2: her around, and then afterwards she said to me, I
Speaker 2: have a daughter that i'd love to introduce into spirituality.
Speaker 2: She's around your age. How do I do that? And
Speaker 2: I said, well, I'm going off to become a monk,
Speaker 2: but I can introduce her to my sister, and my
Speaker 2: sister's I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Oh it's I'm going I'm about to go off and
Speaker 1: be a monk. Excuse, Yeah, that was that.
Speaker 2: Was my excuse. And so she brought a daughter, and
Speaker 2: I did invite my sister so that they could connect,
Speaker 2: and that happened to me. My wife's mom and she
Speaker 2: was bringing her daughter to learn more about spirituality, and
Speaker 2: so I introduced my now wife and my sister and
Speaker 2: I went off became a monk. They became best friends.
Speaker 2: And so when I came back from the monastery, she
Speaker 2: was at my house all the time, and so my
Speaker 2: sister was the person who was our go in between.
Speaker 2: It was like, she likes you, and then you know,
Speaker 2: my my liking of her back. But the first time
Speaker 2: I saw her, I thought she was the most beautiful
Speaker 2: person I'd ever seen. And if you ask her, she
Speaker 2: was saying, yeah, I didn't feel anything. So so it
Speaker 2: was good that I became a monk then because I
Speaker 2: didn't have a shot at that time, so I didn't
Speaker 2: have a chance.
Speaker 1: How many years have you ever made?
Speaker 2: We've been together for eleven years and married for eight
Speaker 2: and so it's been it's been many not yet, no,
Speaker 2: not yet. We've been through so much change together. We
Speaker 2: got married, we moved to New York, we moved to
Speaker 2: la we both quit our jobs in London. We transition.
Speaker 2: There's been so much change in chaos in our lives
Speaker 2: in a good way, and I think, you know, we've
Speaker 2: been lucky to become closer through it, and I think
Speaker 2: that's been a priority for us. I think if we
Speaker 2: would have added kids to that, I think it may
Speaker 2: have hampered our relationship with each other.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a couple of questions from my
Speaker 1: social media followers. Gosh, social media has come along with
Speaker 1: sn't it goodness? Does positive self talk really work?
Speaker 2: Great question? So that to answer that question, you have
Speaker 2: to understand that self talk already exists. And I think
Speaker 2: people don't think about this. When we hear the word
Speaker 2: positive self talk, we like it. Does it really work well?
Speaker 2: Negative self talk works? I'm guessing that everyone says in
Speaker 2: their mind at some point, I don't think I'm good enough. No,
Speaker 2: I shouldn' do that. I probably won't make it. I
Speaker 2: probably won't work for me. We're all practicing negative self
Speaker 2: talk every day by default, regardless, and it's working because
Speaker 2: it's making us more miserable. It's making us sad. It's
Speaker 2: making us not believe in ourselves. I was reading a
Speaker 2: study the other day that was talking about there's two
Speaker 2: types of voice in our head. One is I am lazy,
Speaker 2: I am not good enough, and the other voice we
Speaker 2: have in our head says you're lazy, you're not good enough,
Speaker 2: And that often is even worse and harder to handle
Speaker 2: as in a critic, because it sounds like an authority
Speaker 2: figure in our minds telling us. And often that voice
Speaker 2: has been picked up from family members, teachers, partners, friends,
Speaker 2: ex boyfriends, girlfriends, whatever else it may be. We've adopted
Speaker 2: someone else's voice as our own. And so positive self
Speaker 2: talk isn't saying you're the best, you're amazing, you can
Speaker 2: do anything you want, right like, that's not positive self talk.
Speaker 2: I don't love the words negative and positive when it
Speaker 2: comes to self talk. I like the way of coaching yourself.
Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, if you were
Speaker 2: with a coach who is trying to help you become
Speaker 2: better and improve, how would they talk to you. People
Speaker 2: often say talk to yourself as if you talk to
Speaker 2: your friend, and I think people struggle with that. But
Speaker 2: talk to yourself the way you believe a good coach
Speaker 2: would talk to you to get the most out of you.
Speaker 2: How would they understand how to challenge you, how to
Speaker 2: check you, how to encourage you, how to champion you.
Speaker 2: And so, to me, positive self talk, a healthier version
Speaker 2: of that is me saying, for example, if I wake
Speaker 2: up and go, I'm so tired, right, positive self talk
Speaker 2: would be I'm so energized. Now. That doesn't work because
Speaker 2: you can't just fly to yourself and your mind's not
Speaker 2: going to believe it. So the actionable item is I
Speaker 2: am tired and I will go to sleep early tonight.
Speaker 2: It's an acceptance of how you feel with an action
Speaker 2: of how to make it better. I am not good enough,
Speaker 2: and I can learn how to improve. It's the accepting
Speaker 2: of how we're feeling right now with an action of
Speaker 2: how we can be better, of how we can grow.
Speaker 2: And so that's what I would recommend to anyone who's
Speaker 2: trying to learn what positive self talk.
Speaker 1: Is or giving yourself grace. I am tired because I
Speaker 1: went to bed late last night, and I should be tired, right.
Speaker 1: I think this sort of self flagellation that we sometimes
Speaker 1: resort to, I don't know. I give myself a lot
Speaker 1: of grace.
Speaker 2: I'm really excited, so yeah, me too. You have to,
Speaker 2: I mean, especially if you're living a high stress life,
Speaker 2: which I think so much of the population is today.
Speaker 2: You have to give yourself grace because you're all trying
Speaker 2: to do everything. We're trying to be perfect parents, we're
Speaker 2: trying to be perfect professionals, we're trying to be perfect partners.
Speaker 2: Of course, we're going to fail at one of those things,
Speaker 2: if not more. And you can't guilt yourself into growth.
Speaker 2: That's what we have to understand. You can't guilt yourself
Speaker 2: into achieving your goals. We don't respond to guilt or
Speaker 2: blame or shame. When was the last time someone shamed
Speaker 2: you into becoming better? It doesn't work that way. We
Speaker 2: become better because someone believes in us. We become better
Speaker 2: because we believe there's an opportunity to become better, because
Speaker 2: we feel that someone supports us and loves us no
Speaker 2: matter what. That's what inspires humans to become better. Or
Speaker 2: the opposite, where there's lots of pain and lots of
Speaker 2: loss and lots of stress as well, can do that,
Speaker 2: but there has to be grace in both.
Speaker 1: That's perfect segue to this next question, which is how
Speaker 1: to deal with the grief of a lost soulmate and
Speaker 1: how to live life after loss. I'm really struggling, and
Speaker 1: someone else asked the best approach to dealing with grief.
Speaker 2: Katie, I was going to say, you're the person to
Speaker 2: answer that, not me, you know, from what we're speaking
Speaker 2: about before. I mean, you're the only person who can
Speaker 2: genuinely answer that from an untheoretical point of view.
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier, by the way, that today is
Speaker 1: the twenty sixth anniversary of my husband's death, which is
Speaker 1: so hard to fathom, and it's always the sad day
Speaker 1: of course. Gosh, you know, it's different for every person,
Speaker 1: and each circumstance is different. I think for me, you know,
Speaker 1: I had two small children who were six and two
Speaker 1: when their dad died, and I think for me, I
Speaker 1: never thought that Jay, my husband, would want to impact
Speaker 1: their lives in a negative way the fact that he died,
Speaker 1: and so I think I wanted their lives to be
Speaker 1: full of joy, and I also think I wanted to
Speaker 1: have joy in my life. And as hard as losing
Speaker 1: someone is, I think the challenge is to make sure
Speaker 1: that that death doesn't pull so many other people down
Speaker 1: with it, and I think I came to terms with
Speaker 1: this idea that we're all terminal. Nobody. My dad used
Speaker 1: to say, no man knows his time or place. Life
Speaker 1: is so fragile, and that you just have to make
Speaker 1: the most of whatever time you have. And that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean not mourning the loss of someone you love, not
Speaker 1: missing that person terribly. But I think it just means
Speaker 1: trying to move forward with a life of purpose and joy.
Speaker 1: But it's very hard to be prescriptive with questions like
Speaker 1: this because everyone we're all so different, and our relationships
Speaker 1: are different, and we contain multitudes as we Whitman said,
Speaker 1: So I hate to really give advice, but I do
Speaker 1: believe in almost every case that it gets better with time.
Speaker 1: People say it's like carrying a big heavy stone in
Speaker 1: your pocket. It's always there, but it just doesn't feel
Speaker 1: as heavy after a while. But what advice would you give?
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you must talk to a lot
Speaker 1: of people as an observer of humanity. What advice would
Speaker 1: you give those people? I'm curious.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I don't think
Speaker 2: we can be prescriptive or you know, especially in this
Speaker 2: kind of situation and I haven't lost a soulmate, so
Speaker 2: I can only define it. I can only express like
Speaker 2: you did your own experience. And during the pandemic, I
Speaker 2: lost two people who were very close to me. One
Speaker 2: was my spiritual mentor, who died of stage four brain
Speaker 2: cancer and so I couldn't go back to his funeral.
Speaker 2: And then another friend who was my closest friend when
Speaker 2: I was a monk. He was still a monk when
Speaker 2: he died, and he died of colon cancer.
Speaker 1: Again during life, my husband died of wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so at the same time. So my monk
Speaker 2: friend was around my age, in his thirties, and my
Speaker 2: spiritual mentor was in his sixties. And I can honestly
Speaker 2: say that I missed them both deeply every day for
Speaker 2: different reasons. But I let them live on in my
Speaker 2: life by living as the person they both wanted me
Speaker 2: to be, and by sharing the wisdom they shared with
Speaker 2: me with others. And so I find that to me,
Speaker 2: they're still living with me in their presence and spirit
Speaker 2: and energy.
Speaker 1: I'm so unfair, though, isn't it. I Mean, I think
Speaker 1: that's what upsets me the most, that these things are
Speaker 1: so random, Like why did your friend who was a
Speaker 1: monk in his thirties get diagnosed with colon cancer. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just so random. What upsets me so much is
Speaker 1: what these people miss out on. It makes me feel
Speaker 1: so terrible that my husband didn't get to walk our
Speaker 1: daughter down the aisle, he didn't experience becoming a grandfather.
Speaker 1: It's just so sad to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why the only thing we can do
Speaker 2: is experience it on behalf of them and more deeply
Speaker 2: for them as well. And maybe we would not have
Speaker 2: experienced these things, is deeply if we hadn't had that
Speaker 2: experience with them. That's all we can do, you know,
Speaker 2: That's all that we're left with. I find that often
Speaker 2: these things can be sometimes when you haven't had that perspective,
Speaker 2: you may not even approach these moments with that much
Speaker 2: depth and that much clarity and that much presence, because
Speaker 2: these moments force you to do that. And I think
Speaker 2: doing things on behalf of those people is still a
Speaker 2: beautiful spiritual practice. And you know, I dedicated I went
Speaker 2: on a world tour last year and my London show
Speaker 2: was dedicated to my spiritual mentor who lived in London.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I was saying it on stage
Speaker 2: at the end of the show. I was about to
Speaker 2: break down after like, you know, being on stage and
Speaker 2: performing and everything else. But you know, I felt like
Speaker 2: I was. I knew he'd be happy and he was
Speaker 2: getting to experience it in some way even when he
Speaker 2: wasn't physically there.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, do you believe in
Speaker 1: life after death?
Speaker 2: Yeah? The Eastern perspective is quite clear on reincarnation, which
Speaker 2: is a fascinating concept.
Speaker 1: Do you believe in reincarnation?
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: I want to come back as a cat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's possible. That's very, very possible. I read a
Speaker 2: really beautiful book called Old Sold many years ago by
Speaker 2: Ian Stevenson, and he documents many different experiences and interactions
Speaker 2: with reincarnation past lives, and it's really spectacular. If anyone's
Speaker 2: curious to hear about it from a more research based
Speaker 2: perspective as opposed to a spiritual perspective, that book Old
Speaker 2: Sold by doctor Ian Stephenson is really remarkable.
Speaker 1: I'd like to check that out. Last question, I promise
Speaker 1: you have to go. I have to go. But it's
Speaker 1: been so fun. By the way, I think I see
Speaker 1: why you're such an effective podcaster because suddenly I'm talking
Speaker 1: about all these intensely personal things with you, Jason. I
Speaker 1: think it's your voice or your accent, or are there something.
Speaker 2: My voice is usually quite different when it's my podcast.
Speaker 2: But you you brought this very sober version of me today.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's sober. I think it's gentle and calm.
Speaker 2: Well, you brought that more of me today.
Speaker 1: I don't usually have that effect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, today, that effect on me today.
Speaker 1: What is the best advice you've ever gotten?
Speaker 2: I'm going to share one with you that I haven't
Speaker 2: shared before because I answered this recently and we had
Speaker 2: a clip that went viral with me sharing the advice
Speaker 2: that I did, which.
Speaker 1: We don't want this to go virul.
Speaker 2: I consider the same thing. I consider the same thing.
Speaker 1: No, you don't have to up.
Speaker 2: No, I said something on that it was No, I'll
Speaker 2: say it because it is the best advice. It's it's
Speaker 2: honestly the best advice I've ever received. So it's from
Speaker 2: my spiritual mental that I just spoke about. I remember
Speaker 2: going to him. I'd left the monastery and I went
Speaker 2: to him and I said, I have so many ideas
Speaker 2: of things I want to do to help people, but
Speaker 2: I have no idea where to start. I don't know
Speaker 2: what's going to work. I don't know what's going to
Speaker 2: make an impact. I don't know what's going to matter.
Speaker 2: And he said to me, he said, open every door possible,
Speaker 2: and then observe which doors close and which doors stay open,
Speaker 2: and keep walking through the ones that stay open, because
Speaker 2: those are the doors that were meant for you. And
Speaker 2: I think it's the best advice I've ever received, because
Speaker 2: I'm only here today sitting with you and talking about
Speaker 2: all of this, because I've just tried, and I still
Speaker 2: do try to open every door possible in order for
Speaker 2: me to live my purpose. I've had so many doors
Speaker 2: close on me. I've just kept walking through the ones
Speaker 2: that remain open because I believe those are the right doors.
Speaker 2: And so anyone out there who's struggling to find direction
Speaker 2: or what's the right path or what's the right choice,
Speaker 2: to be honest, no one knows. All you can do
Speaker 2: is try everything and see what remains open, because what
Speaker 2: remains open is your path, not what you hope will be.
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, that's the best advice I've ever received.
Speaker 1: Well, this was such a fun conversation and fascinating and deep.
Speaker 1: It was very yeah, So thank you, Jay. This is
Speaker 1: really lovely. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I'm so grateful honestly, and it
Speaker 2: was wonderful to spend this time with you. Genuinely.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Thank you, Thanks for listening everyone.
Speaker 1: If you have a question for me, a subject you
Speaker 1: want us to cover, or you want to share your
Speaker 1: thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world reach out.
Speaker 1: You can leave a short message at six oh nine
Speaker 1: five one two five to five five, or you can
Speaker 1: send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to
Speaker 1: hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia
Speaker 1: and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric,
Speaker 1: and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and
Speaker 1: our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller
Speaker 1: composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,
Speaker 1: or to sign up for my newsletter wake Up Call,
Speaker 1: go to the description in the podcast app or visit
Speaker 1: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.