Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
Speaker 1: the Whitetail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. This week on
Speaker 2: the show, I'm joined by Kip Adams, the Chief Conservation
Speaker 2: Officer for the National Deer Association, to discuss the state
Speaker 2: of white tails in twenty twenty four and the issues
Speaker 2: that we deer hunters need to be aware of. All right,
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the Wired to Hunt podcast, brought to
Speaker 2: you by First Light and their Camel for Conservation initiative,
Speaker 2: which gives money back to the National Deer Association from
Speaker 2: every purchase of First Light's spector Whitetail Camo. Big fan
Speaker 2: of the past, big fan of the program. Thanks for
Speaker 2: supporting both and our guest today works for the National
Speaker 2: Deer Association. As I mentioned in the intro, he is
Speaker 2: the chief Conservation Officer, Kip Adams. Kip is someone who
Speaker 2: hopefully you've all heard from and heard of. He's been
Speaker 2: on the show many times. He is a tremendous resource.
Speaker 2: He has a wealth of information at his fingertips a
Speaker 2: wildlife biologist and now has been working for the NDA
Speaker 2: for a long time. One of the best educators, the
Speaker 2: speakers out there when it comes to dear related issues,
Speaker 2: dear education, dear biology, you name it, Kip can talk
Speaker 2: to you about it. And he is one of the
Speaker 2: people working on this Deer Report that the NDA puts
Speaker 2: out every year. This Deer Report goes through and compiles
Speaker 2: data on all sorts of different things related to the
Speaker 2: deer population across the country and deer hunting. So today
Speaker 2: our conversation goes through what the main takeaways are when
Speaker 2: it comes to trends within deer hunting and deer harvest.
Speaker 2: You know, how are we doing? Is deer harvest up?
Speaker 2: Is it down? Bucks, dos AID, structure, all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff. We cover it. We also dive into some
Speaker 2: of the issues of importance that we deer hunters need
Speaker 2: to be keeping tabs on, maybe taking action on UH
Speaker 2: stuff like where things stand on chronic wasting disease, things
Speaker 2: related to ballot box biology and you know the changing
Speaker 2: composition of UH. You know, wildlife commissions in different states.
Speaker 2: The people who are overseeing are managing agencies UH do
Speaker 2: we need to do. We need to know about what's
Speaker 2: going on there. We talk about the importance of prescribed fire.
Speaker 2: We talk about the importance of and if we can
Speaker 2: have any influence on, you know, deer UH donation programs,
Speaker 2: venison donation programs. We talk about the continuing challenges that
Speaker 2: we're having in many parts of the country managing our
Speaker 2: antalyst population. Why that's something that we deer hunters need
Speaker 2: to be paying attention to and acting on ourselves. So
Speaker 2: that's kind of stuff we cover today. If you are
Speaker 2: a deer hunter here in America, this is something you
Speaker 2: need to listen to. I highly recommend you go and
Speaker 2: download a copy of the Deer Report for yourself. Review
Speaker 2: this information in its entirety. We cover just a fraction
Speaker 2: of what's in that report, but it's some important stuff.
Speaker 2: I think this is the kind of information that arms
Speaker 2: you to be not just a better deer hunter, but
Speaker 2: someone who can influence the future of deer hunting in
Speaker 2: a positive way. Right, knowledge is power. We need to
Speaker 2: understand the landscape. We need to understand what's going on
Speaker 2: if we want to make sure that it stays good
Speaker 2: and healthy and around for us in future years and
Speaker 2: for our kids and our grandkids and all those that follow.
Speaker 2: So that's the plan. That's the podcast today. Kip always
Speaker 2: makes it interesting, he keeps it fun. This is a
Speaker 2: good one. I hope you'll tune in and enjoy the
Speaker 2: restless episode. And I thank you for being here all
Speaker 2: right back with me now on the show for I
Speaker 2: don't know the sixth seventh, eighth appearance. It's been a lot. Now, Kip,
Speaker 2: I've got Kip Adams here with me on the line.
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me, my friend.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's good to see you, Mark. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: always always look forward to being with you once our
Speaker 3: annual deer report comes out, so we have done a
Speaker 3: bunch of them together.
Speaker 2: We have. There has been not many years of the
Speaker 2: podcast in which we have not had you on the
Speaker 2: show to either review the deer Report or something similar.
Speaker 2: So I'm glad the trend continues. And before we get
Speaker 2: into the state of white tails across America, I have
Speaker 2: to ask, what's the state of white tails in the
Speaker 2: Adams family. How was the twenty four or the twenty
Speaker 2: three season for you?
Speaker 3: It was it was a little slower than many. We've
Speaker 3: been very lucky in both my family and my hunting camp.
Speaker 3: We've had several really good deer seasons in a row,
Speaker 3: so we were due for maybe a little off season,
Speaker 3: and we had some really late frost this year late May.
Speaker 3: We had three frosts out of four days at the
Speaker 3: end of May, which is za all of our acorns.
Speaker 3: We lost all of our apples. We actually had some
Speaker 3: oak trees will and we lost mature oak trees. What
Speaker 3: that means for us is that we have a bunch
Speaker 3: of other food sources, but certainly acorns you know, can
Speaker 3: make or break, not make or break, acorns can have
Speaker 3: a big impact on deer season. We had no acorns
Speaker 3: and no other mess, which meant we didn't see as
Speaker 3: many deer as we normally do, so we had a
Speaker 3: lot of fun. We put deer in the freezer. We
Speaker 3: still have a very traditional Pennsylvania deer camp with a
Speaker 3: bunch of family and friends there, so we had a
Speaker 3: really good time. But it's the first time since twenty
Speaker 3: eleven that we did not kill a buck at our camp.
Speaker 3: So the two biggest bucks that we know we're there.
Speaker 3: We still had pictures of all the way through the
Speaker 3: end of our firearm season. We just never saw either
Speaker 3: of them. So we had a lot of fun. We
Speaker 3: didn't have as good of a year from a buck
Speaker 3: standpoint as we typically do, but that just means that
Speaker 3: they're going to be that much bigger and older next year.
Speaker 3: So high high hopes for the upcoming season.
Speaker 2: So with that, with that the mass issues you talked
Speaker 2: about there, does that portend any kind of concern for
Speaker 2: the future as far as the impact that could have
Speaker 2: on you know, survival over the winter or anything, or
Speaker 2: or is that something you're not too worried about.
Speaker 3: No, I'm not worried about that. You know, we're even
Speaker 3: we get some pretty hard winters here at times, but uh,
Speaker 3: you know, deer deer live way north of us and
Speaker 3: then do pretty well, you know, on winter. So even
Speaker 3: if we don't have you know, that mass, you know,
Speaker 3: our deer aren't going to die. It more impacts daily
Speaker 3: movements during our hot and season than anything else. We
Speaker 3: work hard to ensure that we have food throughout hunting season,
Speaker 3: well throughout the whole year. But you know, where I live,
Speaker 3: it's mountainous in most of that those frosts were elevation related.
Speaker 3: So what that means is some of our neighbors had
Speaker 3: as and we didn't. So it's not like deer we're
Speaker 3: going to die. It's just man, with those acorns are
Speaker 3: hiding the ground, they just moved off of us to
Speaker 3: feed on them, you know, pretty close by. Two of
Speaker 3: our neighbors had exceptional deer seasons. Uh, three of our
Speaker 3: neighbors that all touch us, we're kind of like us
Speaker 3: and just didn't have acorns and didn't see as much.
Speaker 3: But uh, and one of our neighbors stopped. They also
Speaker 3: manage a lot of habitat. They do a really good
Speaker 3: job with that. Said Kip, I don't know where all
Speaker 3: these bucks have come from, but we have never seen
Speaker 3: this many bucks in my life.
Speaker 4: And I'm thinking, I know exactly what I think, because
Speaker 4: I mean, it's they join us, and so it literally,
Speaker 4: you know, you know how good deer are just finding
Speaker 4: where the best food is, you know, within there.
Speaker 3: You know, it's not like these deer are leaving and
Speaker 3: going miles. You know, they're just shifting a little bit.
Speaker 3: So so anyway, no, deer aren't going to die. And
Speaker 3: I fully expect, you know, us to have a really
Speaker 3: good year this coming year, so hopefully we'll we won't
Speaker 3: have any of these late from us, we may be
Speaker 3: able to take advantage of some of the mass that
Speaker 3: we have. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Man, it's funny how it can be so on and
Speaker 2: off hot and cold year to year, little little changes
Speaker 2: in habitat weather, it can it can really change the
Speaker 2: experience you have when you're on a you know, a
Speaker 2: relatively small area. It's kind of like during the rut
Speaker 2: right every year, people like to say, ah, the rut
Speaker 2: was late this year, or the rut we must have
Speaker 2: missed the rut, we didn't see it. There's always folks
Speaker 2: that are making these big claims based on what they
Speaker 2: saw just on their eighty acres or one hundred acres
Speaker 2: or twenty acres. But it's so it's so hard to
Speaker 2: miss the big picture when you know it might have
Speaker 2: been dead for you this week on you're eighty, but
Speaker 2: then like you just said, you know, five hundred acres
Speaker 2: over the other side, they're just on fire. It's it's
Speaker 2: very hard to see that when your own experience is
Speaker 2: so different.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I tell people, you know, we we love to
Speaker 3: we as hunters complain about our state wildlife agencies and this,
Speaker 3: and then you know what I tell them, Hey, you know,
Speaker 3: like they manage deer at the wildlife management unit level.
Speaker 3: We don't hunt that level, you know, we hunt at
Speaker 3: the property level. So you know, in any given management
Speaker 3: you'll have areas where there are a very few deer,
Speaker 3: way too many deer, and everything in between. So you
Speaker 3: are exactly right. We like to think of the exact
Speaker 3: situation we're having is what all hunters have, and that
Speaker 3: that's just not the case at all. So, you know,
Speaker 3: managing habitat and managing hunting pressure help us, you know,
Speaker 3: put the odds in our favor that we will continue
Speaker 3: to have really good hunting. And you know, in most
Speaker 3: cases that works out. You know, sometimes with extreme events
Speaker 3: that doesn't. But I'll always want to err on the
Speaker 3: side of that, and you know, continue to do habitat
Speaker 3: work because I know, nine times out of ten, that's
Speaker 3: definitely gonna help us see more deer and as long
Speaker 3: as we're passing younger bucks older bucks as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this this idea of trying to look at
Speaker 2: the bigger picture and recognizing that what you are seeing
Speaker 2: in isolation in your back forty or in your county
Speaker 2: or whatever, that might not be the case at the
Speaker 2: state level or the nation level. I think that probably
Speaker 2: speaks to a bit of the purpose behind the Deer
Speaker 2: Report that you guys put together. Right, What are you
Speaker 2: guys trying to achieve with this every year? I mean,
Speaker 2: it makes for great talking points for us to have
Speaker 2: a podcast once every twelve months. But when you guys
Speaker 2: sit down and put this information on paper and send
Speaker 2: this out to the world, what are you really hoping
Speaker 2: comes from it?
Speaker 3: Well? I think strictly education, and we provide information that
Speaker 3: helps hunters see what's going on in their area, what's
Speaker 3: going on in their state, how that compares to their
Speaker 3: neighbors and other regions. It helps natural resource professionals with
Speaker 3: the same because many of the issues that somebody in
Speaker 3: Michigan is dealing with. It helps your dear biologist to
Speaker 3: be able to take a look at a map and say, oh,
Speaker 3: you know what Pennsylvania's dealing with the same thing, or
Speaker 3: Iowa is, or oh wow, Mississippi does this way different. Really, so,
Speaker 3: you know, the audience are or is deer hunters, but
Speaker 3: it's also just dear enthusiasts, deer managers, the media, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So it's most helpful if we can understand what's going
Speaker 3: on outside of just our area that we hunt, and
Speaker 3: then also kind of what's going on around the country.
Speaker 3: You know, there may be somebody else that's with a
Speaker 3: similar issue that has a great answer for where you are.
Speaker 3: So anyway, that's the idea of it. Let's collect the
Speaker 3: information that we can and then put it all together
Speaker 3: and then be able to share that. In some of
Speaker 3: those chapters, you know, we provide our analysis of oh
Speaker 3: this is good or this is bad. Some of them
Speaker 3: we just put it all together and share like, hey, here,
Speaker 3: here's a look at what's actually out there. So I
Speaker 3: think hunters are more engaged than ever before, and that's
Speaker 3: a really good thing. And you know, we've been doing
Speaker 3: this since two thousand and nine now, and I really
Speaker 3: appreciate hearing back from the State Wilife Agency, dear biologist,
Speaker 3: how helpful it is to them too, because they can
Speaker 3: see how you know, take drones for example, you know,
Speaker 3: drone is a big issue today. So we have a
Speaker 3: chapter this year looking at where are they legal? Where
Speaker 3: can you use them for deer recovery? Where can you not?
Speaker 3: And so we get questions not only from hunters but
Speaker 3: from state wilife agencies about that as well. So hopefully
Speaker 3: it's an educational thing that can help you know, a
Speaker 3: whole suite of people who are interested in deer.
Speaker 2: Yes. So if you had, you know, after going through
Speaker 2: all of this data from across the different states, from
Speaker 2: the surveys you've collected from all of these different agencies,
Speaker 2: if there was one headline that you wanted deer hunters
Speaker 2: in America to take away from this, If there's one
Speaker 2: important takeaway from the twenty twenty twenty four still get
Speaker 2: my years mixed up? In the twenty twenty four Deer Report,
Speaker 2: What's that single most important thing that we walk away
Speaker 2: from this year's from.
Speaker 3: We have historically high buck harvest rates right now with
Speaker 3: the oldest age truck sure we've ever shot, which is unbelievable.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to say that is my number one thing, though,
Speaker 3: because we have been edging toward that the last few
Speaker 3: years and sharing that information. So we're in the golden
Speaker 3: age of deer hunting right now. However, my number one
Speaker 3: takeaway from this, which is shocking to a lot of hunters.
Speaker 3: It is really shocking to non hunters, and it's maybe
Speaker 3: less shocking to deer managers, but pretty pretty impactful there
Speaker 3: as well, is that less than half of all the
Speaker 3: hunters that go to a field each year shoot a deer.
Speaker 3: Less than half, you know, think about it. Michigan, you
Speaker 3: have a two buck limit, you can kill multiple analysts deer. Pennsylvania,
Speaker 3: I have a one buck limit, but I can kill
Speaker 3: multiple analysts deer. You know, some states you have a
Speaker 3: multi buck limit and multiple ant like Georgia you can
Speaker 3: kill ten dose with your tag. So we think hunters
Speaker 3: non hunters alike. Man, we are just laying deer out.
Speaker 3: The reality it is, oh Mark, less than half of
Speaker 3: all the hunters that go deer hunting every year are
Speaker 3: going to shoot a deer, and only a small number
Speaker 3: shoot more than one. I know you shot a deer.
Speaker 3: You're in the minority. I know you shot more than
Speaker 3: one deer this year. You are in the real minority
Speaker 3: of hunters. People who are avid like you and me
Speaker 3: and a lot of your listeners. We look at like, man,
Speaker 3: everybody's killing deer. That's not true. Less than half the
Speaker 3: hunter shoot a deer. I think that's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty eye opening. But what's the what's the
Speaker 2: what do we do with that information? Like, what's the
Speaker 2: what's the action item? Or why does that matter? I
Speaker 2: guess it's it's interesting. But by in us recognizing like,
Speaker 2: oh wow, most hunters aren't killing deer, what does that
Speaker 2: mean for us as hunters or managers moving forward? Does
Speaker 2: that mean there's an education gap, like hey, people need
Speaker 2: to learn how to be more successful? Or is this
Speaker 2: a for a managing agency? Oh wow, even though you're
Speaker 2: selling all these licenses, the minority of them are the
Speaker 2: ones who can actually take enough action to manage the population.
Speaker 2: So therefore we need to do something differently. What's the
Speaker 2: next step now that we know this?
Speaker 3: I think there's two parts of that. One is the
Speaker 3: next step for wildlife agencies is that you know this
Speaker 3: allows them to know how many antlelist tags they need
Speaker 3: to issue to you know, to meet their harvest objectives,
Speaker 3: or be able to share this information with hunters from
Speaker 3: a strong educational campaign. Hey, you know, if they want
Speaker 3: them to shoot more ant list deer, you know, Hey,
Speaker 3: here's the reality. Here's why we need you to shoot
Speaker 3: more because most people aren't shooting in it or from
Speaker 3: a disease standpoint, if you're in a disease zone and
Speaker 3: you want hunters to shoot more, it's important for them
Speaker 3: to realize just by saying, hey, here's an extra tag,
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean it's going to be you know, a
Speaker 3: filled tag, or there's a deer. It helps them to
Speaker 3: know what percentage of hunters are actually doing this, so
Speaker 3: they can then do the best job to meet their
Speaker 3: target harvest goals. Most states, not all of the most
Speaker 3: states go into the deer season with, you know, an
Speaker 3: idea of Okay, here's how many deer we want to
Speaker 3: kill in these different different units. So knowing how many
Speaker 3: hunters are in those units in the success rate of
Speaker 3: those hunters allows them to do the best job meeting
Speaker 3: their their harvest objective. That keeps them from over harvesting
Speaker 3: or under harvesting deer herds. So that's very good from
Speaker 3: the hunter end. This is important to know because you
Speaker 3: know what I thought we were, you know, like eliminating
Speaker 3: deer herds, or we're reducing deer herds to the point
Speaker 3: where I didn't need to take an extra deer, or
Speaker 3: I didn't need to shoot that dough. But you know,
Speaker 3: I can hear my agency asking me to do this,
Speaker 3: and if the reality is there's only a very small
Speaker 3: percentage shooting multiple deer, okay, maybe I will you know,
Speaker 3: help you manage these resources even more by shooting an
Speaker 3: ant list deer or shooting an extra antlist deer. Maybe
Speaker 3: I can then donate that to a needy family. So
Speaker 3: it helps people be better stewards, you know, if they understand, hey,
Speaker 3: here's exactly what's happening on the playing field.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. So, so a few
Speaker 2: thoughts on her questions around herd management as we're talking
Speaker 2: about some of the things you mentioned there, you know,
Speaker 2: managing the dough herd. You mentioned that our yearling harvest
Speaker 2: is the lower low sever been and the three and
Speaker 2: a half or older harvest is as high as it's
Speaker 2: ever been. So, you know, for as you mentioned, for
Speaker 2: several years now, we've been right around that mark. Kind
Speaker 2: of feels like maybe we've found like an equilibrium. Possibly.
Speaker 2: This has been a mission of the organization you're part of, formerly,
Speaker 2: the Quality Deer Management Association, for years and years and
Speaker 2: years was trying to get a more healthy age structure,
Speaker 2: a healthier deer herd. When it comes to age structure nationally,
Speaker 2: when you average it all out, it seems like we
Speaker 2: have seen you know, leaps and bounds of growth there
Speaker 2: and improvement. So the question is if if that is
Speaker 2: a message that has gotten across and we're seeing strong,
Speaker 2: strong progress there, especially in the southeast, but the better
Speaker 2: in most places. It seems like, what's the next major
Speaker 2: focus area for herd management that we hunters really need
Speaker 2: to focus in on. We talked about this last year
Speaker 2: in the year before a little bit, so it might
Speaker 2: maybe your answer is going to be the same thing.
Speaker 2: But I'm curious now here in twenty twenty four when
Speaker 2: we're looking at, hey, how do we make sure we're
Speaker 2: managing this herd appropriately? For a long time it was
Speaker 2: past that young buck. What's the next thing? What's the yes?
Speaker 3: And to that, it's in much of the United States
Speaker 3: harvesting additional ant list deer. It is increasing the antlerus
Speaker 3: harvest to appropriate levels to keep deer herds where well
Speaker 3: we need them to be relative to the you know,
Speaker 3: how much habitat there is. In some cases that means
Speaker 3: really reducing the deer herd locally. In other cases it
Speaker 3: might be just slightly reducing the deer. But the fact
Speaker 3: that for many of the hunting seasons in the past decade,
Speaker 3: we have shot more antler bucks than antlyst deer. That's
Speaker 3: not a good thing. Like there are some states that, yes,
Speaker 3: that's a recipe for success. New England comes to mind.
Speaker 3: State's kind of on the fringe of good white tail habitat.
Speaker 3: But for most states, that's a recipe for disaster. If
Speaker 3: we're shooting more bucks than we are analysts dere So
Speaker 3: that's really the next step. We have done a great
Speaker 3: job as a hunting culture protecting those younger bucks. We
Speaker 3: have the best age structure we've had in the last
Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty years from the buck end, so phenomenal.
Speaker 3: Now we can just manage that and go through that's
Speaker 3: the healthiest for deer. It's obviously great hunting opportunities for us.
Speaker 3: But now we need to look at again at the
Speaker 3: ant list side and say, okay, let's make sure that
Speaker 3: we're being good Steward's here and shooting enough ant list deer,
Speaker 3: because if we lose that part of it, that all
Speaker 3: that gain we have in bucket structure doesn't matter. We
Speaker 3: need to be having the right number of deer for
Speaker 3: what our habitats can support, and we do that by
Speaker 3: having the appropriate analysts.
Speaker 2: Harpers. Yeah, forgive me for the fact that we talk
Speaker 2: about this a nauseam, But can you give us the
Speaker 2: cliff notes rundown again on how balancing that side of
Speaker 2: the herd helps the health and quality of the deer
Speaker 2: and of hunting opportunities down the line too. So buy
Speaker 2: more effectively managing our ant list deer population. So by
Speaker 2: killing some more dose we're appropriate. Can you just give
Speaker 2: us the quick rundown on the trickle down effects on
Speaker 2: how that helps all these other things that we care about.
Speaker 3: Sure, from a deer herd, everything starts by having the
Speaker 3: right number of deer for what the habitat can support.
Speaker 3: Deer can exist above that line, but they're being nutritionally deprived,
Speaker 3: and nutritionally deprived, they're not able to express their body
Speaker 3: growth potential, their antler growth potential, their fond production potential.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of hunters that hunt in herds
Speaker 3: that are being nutritionally deprived simply because there's not enough
Speaker 3: food for numbers of deer. Now, I will be the
Speaker 3: first to say I like to see a lot of
Speaker 3: deer when I go hunting. I get it. There's nothing
Speaker 3: wrong with that. So hunters don't need to apologize for
Speaker 3: that or try to get around it. When I'm not
Speaker 3: seeing many deer, you know, I'm the first to begin itchy, like, hey,
Speaker 3: something's not right. However, we want to have a deer
Speaker 3: herd in balance with how much the habitat can support.
Speaker 3: We do that by harvesting analysts deer to bring it down,
Speaker 3: but also increasing the quality of that habitat so it
Speaker 3: can support more deer. But when we're in a skewed situation,
Speaker 3: that's not good for deer because they're not getting enough
Speaker 3: to eat, and since they can negatively impact that habitat,
Speaker 3: they degrade the habitat, which means that five years from now,
Speaker 3: well it can support even fewer deer, which is not
Speaker 3: what we want. And it's also negatively impacting numerous other
Speaker 3: wildlife species. So if you have too many deer, nothing
Speaker 3: good happens. So let's correct that by shooting analysts deer.
Speaker 3: Now we have a habitat that is healthy, can can
Speaker 3: support more deer. It is also good for other wildlife species,
Speaker 3: which long term is best for us as hunters. And
Speaker 3: then once a deer herd is in balance, then they
Speaker 3: get enough to eat and they get enough high quality food.
Speaker 3: Da It would be like if you or me, you know,
Speaker 3: We may have all the rice cakes we want through
Speaker 3: the ear, you know, but we can eat the heck
Speaker 3: out of rice cakes, you know, and we're not going
Speaker 3: to be big and strong. It just doesn't happen. So hey,
Speaker 3: let's get us enough to eat, but also get us
Speaker 3: good stuff to eat. That's what we do by managing
Speaker 3: habitat and making sure that there's not more deer than
Speaker 3: the habitat can support. Some people think, man if I
Speaker 3: shoot that dough, I'm hurting my future hunting. The reality
Speaker 3: is that's not true. You are helping your future hunting
Speaker 3: by making sure that deer are getting enough high quality
Speaker 3: food to eat. So long term, it's way better for
Speaker 3: us to make sure we achieve those appropriate antelis harvest goals.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, I think there's another risk to not managing
Speaker 2: our anteer list deer herd, which is something that was
Speaker 2: alluded to in an email that my whole State of Michigan,
Speaker 2: the hunting population in Michigan received last year from our
Speaker 2: deer biologist, in which he pleaded with hunters in Michigan
Speaker 2: to get more serious about trying to harvest antalysts deer,
Speaker 2: especially in the southern two thirds of the state. Where
Speaker 2: deer populations are largely out of control. He spoke to
Speaker 2: the fact that our analyst harvest continues to decrease. We
Speaker 2: are killing significantly more bucks than does now. And I
Speaker 2: can't remember exactly how this is phrased, but there was
Speaker 2: something in there along the lines of if we can't
Speaker 2: write this ship, if we can't start managing our analysts
Speaker 2: heard hunters as a tool for managing the deer population,
Speaker 2: will be might be deprioritized. We might lose our job
Speaker 2: to some degree, or we might be threatened to some
Speaker 2: degree with the opportunity to do that work. By that,
Speaker 2: I mean there are some places now that are looking
Speaker 2: at other ways to manage their deer herds outside of
Speaker 2: just hunters, because hunters haven't been able to put the
Speaker 2: numbers down to where they need to be. Can you
Speaker 2: speak to that a little bit? Is that a real risk?
Speaker 2: Is that something that ten years down their line, twenty
Speaker 2: years down the line, could have ramifications on our hunting
Speaker 2: opportunities and our place within this whole management system.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the answer is yes today because hunters
Speaker 3: provide a free ecological service to society. You know, we
Speaker 3: harvest deer, which is great. We help keep deer herds
Speaker 3: in balance, which is great, you know, and we're not
Speaker 3: charging society to do that. We buy the hunting licenses
Speaker 3: and the gear in effect, you know, pay for our
Speaker 3: wildlife management programs by pumping that money in. So we
Speaker 3: are champions of society. We get to have that opportunity, though,
Speaker 3: because society allows us to only about four percent of
Speaker 3: the US population buys a hunting license. So we'd like
Speaker 3: to think, yeah, I'm going to hunt, and I'll always
Speaker 3: get to because it's my god given right, and I
Speaker 3: wish that was true, but we don't get to do
Speaker 3: anything in the United States because four percent of us
Speaker 3: want to do it. We get to hunt because about
Speaker 3: eighty percent of the American public supports hunting. Even though
Speaker 3: they don't hunt, they support legal, ethical, regulated hunting. So
Speaker 3: because that part of society allows us to hunt, we
Speaker 3: should do the best job we can be in the
Speaker 3: best stewards possible and manage those hurts. So, as hunters,
Speaker 3: when we choose to not shoot enough deer to keep
Speaker 3: deer herds where they need to be and deer human
Speaker 3: conflicts continue to rise, crop damage, forestry damage, deer vehicle accidents,
Speaker 3: et cetera. Society will find another way to solve that problem,
Speaker 3: and as hunters, we don't want them to find somebody else,
Speaker 3: because you know, we want to continue to hunt. This
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that we're not going to be able to
Speaker 3: continue hunt in the future. I'm not saying that, because
Speaker 3: I believe we will. But right now we are by
Speaker 3: far the primary way that all wait til herds are managed,
Speaker 3: and I want to keep it that way. So if
Speaker 3: we don't solve the problem, society will find somebody else
Speaker 3: that helps hunters solve that problem or manage that deer herd,
Speaker 3: and that that may be good for hunting, but there's
Speaker 3: a really good chance that hunters won't like that, so
Speaker 3: me included. So I want us to continue to do
Speaker 3: the best we can and by projecting a good public image,
Speaker 3: which today hunters in large part do, that's very good.
Speaker 3: But we also need to make sure that we are
Speaker 3: managing the deer herd appropriately, following what our state wilife
Speaker 3: agents are asking us to do. The non hunting public
Speaker 3: doesn't want to hear the agency say we need you
Speaker 3: to shoot more deer and then hunters not do it.
Speaker 3: So so I think what you asked about is a
Speaker 3: very legitimate question. I'm not a fear mongerer by any means,
Speaker 3: and I'm an optimist by nature, So I'm looking at
Speaker 3: just what I know from the last thirty years of
Speaker 3: managing deer and hunting deer. So yes, I think there's
Speaker 3: a real chance in the future in places where we
Speaker 3: just failed to do the job, that society will find
Speaker 3: something else. We're seeing this in other countries right now,
Speaker 3: so you know, it's not that big of a stretch
Speaker 3: that you know, we can see the same thing here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we need to We need to get
Speaker 2: ahead of that, right, We need to stay on the
Speaker 2: front end of that and keep those conversations from having
Speaker 2: to bubble up, which I think leads to a need
Speaker 2: for folks to for that two percent or whatever the
Speaker 2: number of people who kill multiple deer. So what we're
Speaker 2: what that original data set points to, is that the
Speaker 2: proportion of the hunting population that is actually currently making
Speaker 2: a dent in the deer population enough to manage it.
Speaker 2: We're talking a very small group of the hunting population.
Speaker 2: So if there's ten million deer hunters in America, what
Speaker 2: was the percentage that kills multiple deer seventeen percent?
Speaker 3: Is that right, Yeah, less than one in five.
Speaker 2: So seventeen. Yeah, So we've got a real small sliver
Speaker 2: of the hunters who kill more than one deer. So
Speaker 2: those of the people who currently right now are having
Speaker 2: some kind of influence that within that group. For good reason,
Speaker 2: there is for many hunters a a pretty darn close
Speaker 2: one to one correlation between kill deer, eat deer right
Speaker 2: or or close to it, or kill deer, give deer
Speaker 2: to friend, or kill deer share with family at the
Speaker 2: pot luck. But what we're seeing is that there are
Speaker 2: more deer that need to be killed then I can
Speaker 2: personally eat myself, right, And so that is where I
Speaker 2: think we need to have these conversations about, Okay, how
Speaker 2: do we a make sense of that and come and
Speaker 2: make that kind of math add up for us, Hey,
Speaker 2: if I'm going to kill more deer, how do I
Speaker 2: feel okay about doing that in a way that I
Speaker 2: don't feel like I'm wasting this meat or inappropriately taking
Speaker 2: from the landscape and then making it possible for that
Speaker 2: meat to go to good causes like these different hunters
Speaker 2: feeding the hungry programs making it easier to share meat,
Speaker 2: to donate meat. It seems like that's something that needs
Speaker 2: to continue to grow, because it's actually getting harder to
Speaker 2: donate meat here in southern Michigan, and my local meat
Speaker 2: processors aren't taking it anymore. I think in states with
Speaker 2: CWD issues, that's becoming more challenging. So I think that
Speaker 2: is likely another one of these things that we'll have
Speaker 2: to continue to address to make it easier to make
Speaker 2: sure that we kill the number of deer they need
Speaker 2: to be killed, and that that meat is going to
Speaker 2: a good cause and that hunters feel good about doing
Speaker 2: that work.
Speaker 3: That's right, And I think that is the single largest
Speaker 3: issue that we need to solve, is that venison donation opportunity.
Speaker 3: As you said, some states have it make it very easy,
Speaker 3: some states not at all, And in most states there's
Speaker 3: still a hunter has to pay for part of that.
Speaker 3: And you know, like, you know what, I if I
Speaker 3: can donate a deer and help somebody, if I have
Speaker 3: to pay a little bit, Okay, I am into this,
Speaker 3: you are into this. We may do that, but for
Speaker 3: the average hunter who it might have, you know, it
Speaker 3: might have been difficult to even get a hold of
Speaker 3: that analyst tag or to pay for it, and then
Speaker 3: to pay an extra twenty five to fifty or whatever
Speaker 3: to have it donated. You know, that's a real barrier.
Speaker 3: So I firmly believe that we have to make it
Speaker 3: as easy as possible free to hunters. If you want
Speaker 3: to donate this deer, it doesn't cost you a penny,
Speaker 3: you know. Okay, you have to get it to the processor,
Speaker 3: so you're going to pay some gas or diesel, but
Speaker 3: you're not costing a penny. And I think that's where
Speaker 3: society legislation can help by providing, you know, enough into
Speaker 3: those programs. Right now, hunters fund them, which we fund
Speaker 3: all this other stuff, you know, because we want to,
Speaker 3: But the bill is bigger than what we can fund,
Speaker 3: so I think we have to solve that. To provide
Speaker 3: that avenue for those deer, that would be great. The
Speaker 3: second part is we have to have much stronger public
Speaker 3: education campaigns from our state wilife agencies encouraging deer, encouraging
Speaker 3: deer hunters to shoot those extra analysts deer, but they
Speaker 3: have to explain why and how that will benefit them.
Speaker 3: Some states have been really successful with strong campaigns. Most
Speaker 3: just haven't got in enough, you know, for those two
Speaker 3: be successful. But there are examples of where states have
Speaker 3: done that and have moved the needle.
Speaker 2: To your first point of that statement, that being there,
Speaker 2: there likely needs to be some larger mechanism to help
Speaker 2: pay for this, to fund these kinds of programs. Is
Speaker 2: there any Is there any example of a state that's
Speaker 2: found a way to do that well or be Is
Speaker 2: there any progress towards this? Have there been people floating
Speaker 2: bills to develop some kind of nationwide pot of money
Speaker 2: for something like this or program. Is there anything to
Speaker 2: point to and say, hey, let's get behind this, or
Speaker 2: do we really literally need to build something from the
Speaker 2: ground up.
Speaker 3: I think we need to build something from the ground up,
Speaker 3: but we at least have examples, the most recent being
Speaker 3: the CWD Research and Management Act. I think there's been
Speaker 3: so much push from the CWD and in the past
Speaker 3: several years, and rightfully so, that there just hasn't been
Speaker 3: a push from the venison donation. Most states, or maybe
Speaker 3: all states, have some type of venison donation programs. Some
Speaker 3: are way better than others. Farmers and Hunters Feeding the
Speaker 3: Hungry that's based out of Maryland is one of the best.
Speaker 3: My family has donated many deer through that program and
Speaker 3: it is phenomenal, but even that program runs out of
Speaker 3: money in Maryland each year, so there is a bigger
Speaker 3: need for those. I'm not aware of a larger now
Speaker 3: push with that, I don't get as involved with the
Speaker 3: policy anymore so as possible there is I don't think
Speaker 3: so though, Mark, But there's definitely an avenue for that
Speaker 3: that we have seen with other things, So that would
Speaker 3: be a great thing for hunters to get behind.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, interestingly, there's a direct connection between CWD management
Speaker 2: and this kind of program, right because if we could
Speaker 2: better address the donation of deer, we might be able
Speaker 2: to encourage a more appropriate management of deer herds, which
Speaker 2: then helps you mitigate the spread of CWD by reducing
Speaker 2: densities unnatural densities where it's a problem. So I almost
Speaker 2: wonder if there might be a way to tap into
Speaker 2: future CWD earmarked funds to fund a program like this,
Speaker 2: because you know, we were talking this past summer, there
Speaker 2: was a CWD someone I was at and one of
Speaker 2: the single most important action items that's so simple but
Speaker 2: would make such a big difference and continuing to address
Speaker 2: the spread of CWD is just take another antelus deer
Speaker 2: get folks to do this job. More effectively, more consistently.
Speaker 2: If we can just do that, it serves as such
Speaker 2: a speed bump for cwds spreading faster and further. So
Speaker 2: this seems like it could be a very action oriented
Speaker 2: way to actually make a difference on the whole CWT
Speaker 2: challenge too.
Speaker 3: You're right, they definitely are tied together, so there's a
Speaker 3: relation between you know, those and then in those disease
Speaker 3: zones it's even more important to shoot extra deer like that.
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's a lot of tie ins. The state
Speaker 3: of Maryland several years ago had a great way that
Speaker 3: they actually dealt with this. Of course, Maryland is small,
Speaker 3: there's only three counties, but they had drop boxes where
Speaker 3: hunters could just take, you know, to these coolers put
Speaker 3: your deer in. They ended up having all these deer
Speaker 3: processed at their their state jail where they actually talk
Speaker 3: the inmates to process me. So the inmates were learning
Speaker 3: a ski bill. It was literally pennies to process these deer.
Speaker 3: It was. It was a tremendous example of hey, let's
Speaker 3: just sit down and figure out how to solve this.
Speaker 3: The deer went to these coolers, agency staff picked them up,
Speaker 3: they took them to the jail. The inmates actually processed
Speaker 3: all of this. It all went out to the food banks.
Speaker 3: It was a tremendous example of you know what, when
Speaker 3: we were sitting down and work together, you know, we
Speaker 3: can make things happen. So that was pretty cool how
Speaker 3: they tackled that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a great example of just simple
Speaker 2: problem solving right there and finding solutions. So CWD. Since
Speaker 2: that's since we're talking about it, we might as well
Speaker 2: dive into that a little bit further. Can you give
Speaker 2: us an update on where things stand in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: four when it comes to chronic wasting, chronic wasting disease,
Speaker 2: the spread of it, updates on research, anything new there
Speaker 2: that we need to know about.
Speaker 3: Well, we're up to thirty one states now. The disease
Speaker 3: continues to spread, finding it in new areas like Florida,
Speaker 3: like Alabama, you know, some some states down in the southeast. Now. Fortunately,
Speaker 3: hunters understand more about the disease than ever before, so
Speaker 3: we're not seeing it as much as these scare tactics
Speaker 3: and you know, oh, I'm going to quit hunting because
Speaker 3: this unknown. There's enough information today to tell hunters, hey,
Speaker 3: here's what we know about it. There's still a lot
Speaker 3: we don't know, but you know what, we're finally seeing
Speaker 3: some successes relative to to manage it. We know more
Speaker 3: about how to predict where states will find it, which
Speaker 3: is a good thing because as soon as we find it,
Speaker 3: then the state can get a better idea of how
Speaker 3: long has it likely been there? Is it pretty new?
Speaker 3: Has it been a while? You know, what's the prevalence
Speaker 3: rate within that deer herd? Because based on those things,
Speaker 3: they attack it differently. So we at least know more
Speaker 3: about predicting where we'll find it. We have better tools
Speaker 3: today to test for it. Luckily, there's there's more equipment
Speaker 3: available so that hunters can get that test back sooner.
Speaker 3: Perfect example, we had a chapter in our annual report
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago on what's the turnaround time nationally?
Speaker 3: It was like two to three weeks from when a
Speaker 3: hunter would turn a CWT sample in until they would
Speaker 3: get the results. That's a long time. We need to
Speaker 3: do better than that.
Speaker 2: This year, my.
Speaker 3: Home state of Pennsylvania average turnaround time five days, so
Speaker 3: that is a huge gain. You know what, if you're
Speaker 3: processing your own you know you're probably hanging it for
Speaker 3: that long anyway before you process that, so you have
Speaker 3: your result back if it's at if you take it
Speaker 3: to a processor within that time, you may not have
Speaker 3: it back anyway before then. So anyway, the faster turnaround
Speaker 3: time is way more convenient for hunters and allows you
Speaker 3: to better handle that meat if it turns out to
Speaker 3: be positive. So my take is, hey, let's continue to
Speaker 3: push that envelope in the future so we get that
Speaker 3: down even more. You know, we're not real close yet
Speaker 3: to an infield test. It would be great if in
Speaker 3: the field you could take a blood sample, take a
Speaker 3: DNA sample, ear chip something and quickly know what it is.
Speaker 3: We're working towards that. You know, that's not going to
Speaker 3: happen in the next year or two. But the fact
Speaker 3: that today the average turnaround time went from two to
Speaker 3: three weeks to you know, less than a week in
Speaker 3: the state, Hey, that's a big gain. And we know
Speaker 3: that actually running the test is very quick. The time
Speaker 3: is getting the sample from the drop boxes to the
Speaker 3: lab and then back the hunters. So as now that
Speaker 3: as we have better technology to test those, we can
Speaker 3: increase the number of machines that do that testing and
Speaker 3: increase some of the logistic you within these states to
Speaker 3: get the samples quicker, which means we can we can
Speaker 3: reduce that turnaround time even farther. So that's a that's
Speaker 3: a huge gain for hunters. That's a big win for us.
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of things we don't know, but
Speaker 3: we're finally starting to see some successes in the fight
Speaker 3: and that's encouraging and that helps more hunters feel like
Speaker 3: they can make a difference in get engaged.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the CWD Research and Management Act was signed into
Speaker 2: law last January, I believe, so we've been in it
Speaker 2: about twelve months now. Has there been anything has any
Speaker 2: action come out of that yet? Have we seen any
Speaker 2: important things be funded by that bill? Has anything been
Speaker 2: made possible yet by that? Because it was it was
Speaker 2: hailed as a big success at the beginning of last year.
Speaker 2: Are we seeing anything from that yet? I guess is
Speaker 2: what I'm getting.
Speaker 3: To that has not this year because that puts seventy
Speaker 3: million to management, thirty five for research and you know,
Speaker 3: thirty five for monitoring and surveillance, which is a great
Speaker 3: well all of that money wasn't asked for last year.
Speaker 3: States weren't didn't survive, So long story short, through our
Speaker 3: policy work and other wildlife agencies or other NGOs and
Speaker 3: wildlife agencies, we're able to get out to the states
Speaker 3: and say, hey, you know there's money that we can
Speaker 3: get for this. So that you can get for this
Speaker 3: that's not being requested right now, let's increase you know,
Speaker 3: all of these asks from a research into that because
Speaker 3: the money will not be appropriated if the states aren't
Speaker 3: effectively asking for all that, they're spending more than that,
Speaker 3: you know, they're just taking it from other programs. So hey,
Speaker 3: now we have a means to do this. So the
Speaker 3: biggest thing this year was getting states in line to
Speaker 3: be able to request money from that to make sure
Speaker 3: that it's fully appropriated. So that is a big win
Speaker 3: for the CWD fight. We have this. Now, let's get
Speaker 3: states in line to be able to pull as much
Speaker 3: as possible from that so that they can they don't
Speaker 3: have to rob from all of their other programs to
Speaker 3: fund CWD management and research in their state.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what about on the hunter side of things?
Speaker 2: So where we stand today, I don't think things have changed,
Speaker 2: but I'm curious if there's anything else new that we
Speaker 2: have discovered over the last year that changes at all
Speaker 2: the best practices. So what are the best practices KIP
Speaker 2: for a deer hunter today in twenty twenty four. If
Speaker 2: you want to be a good steward when it comes
Speaker 2: to doing the right thing when it comes to CWD
Speaker 2: as a deer hunter, what does that entail now? Given
Speaker 2: any new information we have or not any information?
Speaker 3: The best thing for a deer hunter and I firmly
Speaker 3: believe that every one of us can engage in this
Speaker 3: fight and help one know if the disease is in
Speaker 3: the zone your hunting or not, whether that's at home
Speaker 3: or your travel. And it's super simple to do that.
Speaker 3: We work with on X They have a CWD layer
Speaker 3: on there on the app, so regardless of where you
Speaker 3: are in the United States, you can look and see
Speaker 3: am I in a disease zone or not? It's a
Speaker 3: free layer on there. There's no reason to not know
Speaker 3: if you're in the zone or not. And if you are,
Speaker 3: there's additional information that we reference back to all the
Speaker 3: state wildlife agencies that show, hey, where are drop box locations?
Speaker 3: Do I need to provide a sample or not? And
Speaker 3: if so, where can I go? Do it? Are there?
Speaker 3: You know, all of that stuff is right there. So
Speaker 3: it's super easy for hunters so know if you're in
Speaker 3: the zone or not, and if you are, don't move
Speaker 3: the high risk parts of an animal out of that
Speaker 3: zone if you shoot one. The high risk parts are eyes, brain, spleen, backbone.
Speaker 3: Because one of the things that's bad about the disease
Speaker 3: is if I come and hunt with you and we're
Speaker 3: in a disease zone in Michigan, we both shoot a
Speaker 3: deer and we'd take them home. If I bring those
Speaker 3: high risk parts home and discard them on the landscape,
Speaker 3: I literally could have been moving that disease to my area.
Speaker 3: And another deer that come in contact with those remains,
Speaker 3: or the soil around those remains, or the plants going
Speaker 3: on the sore on them around those remains, they can
Speaker 3: then contract the disease. So that is a way that's
Speaker 3: very easy to move the disease, but it's something that
Speaker 3: hunters very easily can fight. Don't move those high risk parts. That,
Speaker 3: more than anything else, will help us. And you see
Speaker 3: people you know with deer in their trucks and the
Speaker 3: trailers are hauling them across state lines and and you're
Speaker 3: seeing states get really serious about it. Kentucky and South
Speaker 3: Carolina both busted hundreds big time fines for bringing deer
Speaker 3: into their states. So it's it's not okay for a
Speaker 3: hundred to say, well, I didn't know the rules. Well,
Speaker 3: you know what, if you're a hunter, hey, let's be responsible.
Speaker 3: Let's know the rules. And so if you're in if
Speaker 3: you're hunting his zone, don't move those high risk parts.
Speaker 3: Every hunter can do that mark and that is the
Speaker 3: single best thing we can do to help keep or
Speaker 3: help limit the spread of the disease.
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty simple but impactful. So, like you said, no
Speaker 2: excuse not to know about that and to do the right.
Speaker 3: Thing and tell our buddies. Yeah, tell our buddies, no,
Speaker 3: don't let them. I was in Elk camp in Colorado
Speaker 3: a few years ago. A guy there who happened to
Speaker 3: be in camp with a shot and Elk was going
Speaker 3: to take the head home to another state. And I said,
Speaker 3: you are not leaving this camp with that head. You know,
Speaker 3: boil it. And there was an opportunity we could boil it,
Speaker 3: get the brain out, get the eyes out, whatever. And
Speaker 3: he said, I'll have my taxi or mister home doing
Speaker 3: I said, you're gonna do it here, like I will
Speaker 3: not let you leave here. Like I didn't know that
Speaker 3: guy before we got there, but I said, like, this
Speaker 3: is a big deal. He ended up leaving a day early.
Speaker 3: I was out hunting. I got back to camp that
Speaker 3: night and he was gone. I was furious. All the
Speaker 3: other guys at camp said, we told him, like, Kip
Speaker 3: is not going to be happy. So the guy broke
Speaker 3: the rules, which is wrong, But I was more upset about,
Speaker 3: you know what, you are risking all those deer you
Speaker 3: know back in your home state where you're going, because
Speaker 3: you're going to take it back there and dump it.
Speaker 3: So so not only can we not move him, but
Speaker 3: we need to make sure our hunt bodies know, hey,
Speaker 3: this is important. Don't you move them either.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. And peer
Speaker 2: pressure is a whole lot more effective than a state
Speaker 2: agency telling you what to do, right, you know, putting
Speaker 2: the pressure in a positive way with your buddies, making
Speaker 2: sure they know the right thing to do and give
Speaker 2: them a little incentive to do so is probably going
Speaker 2: to is going to help get the right thing done
Speaker 2: more so than a pamphlet from the DNR. So yeah,
Speaker 2: we got to do that. We got to be those people.
Speaker 2: So speaking of pieces of paper, one of the issues
Speaker 2: you highlighted which I found interesting in the report this
Speaker 2: year was fire. You guys made a point to dive
Speaker 2: into whether or not states have prescribed fire consoles, whether
Speaker 2: they have prescribed excuse me, prescribed fire assistance available in
Speaker 2: different states. And I'm curious, why was this something that
Speaker 2: you guys wanted to shine a light on and talk
Speaker 2: about and make sure folks were aware of. Why is
Speaker 2: fire and prescribed fire of importance to the deer hunting
Speaker 2: world these days.
Speaker 3: Prescribe fire is a tremendous habitat enhancement tool for wildlife,
Speaker 3: for deer, but for a whole host of other wildlife species.
Speaker 3: At the National Deer Association, we're big fans of using
Speaker 3: prescribe fire where where folks are able, and we wanted
Speaker 3: to get in a national snapshot on just how much
Speaker 3: of this is being used and where is it being used,
Speaker 3: because in areas where it's not, hey, maybe there's an
Speaker 3: opportunity for us to help folks in those areas have
Speaker 3: the ability to use more fire. I'm a member of
Speaker 3: the Pennsylvania Prescribed Fire Council, so my part on that
Speaker 3: is we do a lot of burning in Pennsylvania now
Speaker 3: and public land. I want to see more of that
Speaker 3: happen on private land. Private landowners want to use it,
Speaker 3: so let's make it more available to them. So as
Speaker 3: much as anything, we want to just highlight the value
Speaker 3: of fire that people realize that, Hey, let's look at
Speaker 3: where it's it's mostly being used. We knew it was
Speaker 3: used a lot in the in the Southeast. I know
Speaker 3: it's used a lot of the Midwest. I'll admit, you know,
Speaker 3: I was a little surprised at where the numbers came out,
Speaker 3: and of course the numbers that agencies showed on because
Speaker 3: we asked them, Hey, how many acres of areas are
Speaker 3: burned us and prescribed fire under state annually. Some states
Speaker 3: have a really good measure that some not as much.
Speaker 3: But nationally, you know, it was just under nine million acres,
Speaker 3: which is certainly a minimum estimate. It's probably a lot
Speaker 3: more than that, but at least we have a baseline,
Speaker 3: you know, of that nine million, six million of it
Speaker 3: was in the Southeast, so and then almost all the
Speaker 3: rest was in the Midwest. It was only you know,
Speaker 3: a couple hundred thousand acres that we know of in
Speaker 3: the Northeast, So the Midwest burns a bunch as well,
Speaker 3: which was very cool. So lots of opportunity, you know,
Speaker 3: to increase use of fire in the Northeast, which historically
Speaker 3: fire was used tremendously throughout the Northeast. So Southeast does
Speaker 3: a real good job using it and recording it. The
Speaker 3: Midwest does a good job using it and recording it.
Speaker 3: But we have lots of opportunities to gain in the northeast.
Speaker 2: Would it be fair to say that this is something
Speaker 2: that's important to get on folks radar more often though,
Speaker 2: because we're seeing in so many places a homogenization of
Speaker 2: habitat and a lot of places a maturing of forest,
Speaker 2: especially in so many places where we're getting you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of forest management issues, right, I know
Speaker 2: you guys have tackled that and talked about that in
Speaker 2: the past, and more and more we're losing early secessional habitat.
Speaker 2: We're losing grasslands and prairies and all that kind of
Speaker 2: habitat that's super important for deer, but especially important for
Speaker 2: turkeys and upland birds and grassland birds, songbirds, pollinating insects,
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. All these critters that are
Speaker 2: part of the ecosystem. They're increasingly across the nation losing
Speaker 2: the kind of habitat that they need. Fire is one
Speaker 2: of the greatest ways to put that back on the landscape, right, disturbance.
Speaker 2: We need disturbance to create diversity, to create the kinds
Speaker 2: of habitat that so many creatures need, and that's a
Speaker 2: disappearing thing these days. Is part of the highlight here
Speaker 2: being like, hey, this is important and it's not as
Speaker 2: hard as you think it is because there is this
Speaker 2: assistance available.
Speaker 3: It is that and it's in many cases the least
Speaker 3: expensive perak or option to to manage a habitat. And
Speaker 3: so there are you know, there are things that we
Speaker 3: can do on many of those different vegetation types you
Speaker 3: know that may not simulate fire, but ways to manage them.
Speaker 3: They're all more labor intensive and more expensive. So by
Speaker 3: allowing people to know, hey, this is a tool and
Speaker 3: this is a really good way to manage you know,
Speaker 3: a lot of acres are get the most bang for
Speaker 3: your buck relative to what you're managing. That is part
Speaker 3: of it. But it's also important for folks to understand
Speaker 3: maybe I'll never use fire, but if I see smoke
Speaker 3: over on my neighbors. This is you know, this can
Speaker 3: be a good thing. Culturally, we are in many places
Speaker 3: in the North we are losing that connection to using fire.
Speaker 3: And if you want to use a chainsaw or you
Speaker 3: want to use a bush har or herbicides on your land,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter what your neighbor thinks, You're going to
Speaker 3: be able to do that. But if you want to
Speaker 3: use fire on your land, it does matter what your
Speaker 3: neighbor thinks because that smoke may go over on his
Speaker 3: or her land. So the more people that understand the
Speaker 3: benefits of fire, even if they're not going to use it,
Speaker 3: the fact that they understand it and accept that it's
Speaker 3: practiced in their area helps everybody be able to use
Speaker 3: fire because in many cases, it's not the actual flame
Speaker 3: or the fire that is either most limiting. It's the smoke.
Speaker 3: You know, where is that smoke going? Is it going
Speaker 3: to end up on a highway? So smoke management is
Speaker 3: a huge part of being able to use that. You know,
Speaker 3: smoke management is not an issue if you're using your
Speaker 3: tractor or your chainsaw, or you know, you're side by side,
Speaker 3: but it is at.
Speaker 2: Least if you're using those things the right way.
Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. It is with fire. So we
Speaker 3: want people who may not even use it to understand
Speaker 3: why it's used so that others can use it in
Speaker 3: the area. So and that's a big part of that,
Speaker 3: so big educational component.
Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of education, you know, I think there are
Speaker 2: probably a lot of people out there like me who
Speaker 2: know that fire on the landscape can be a good thing,
Speaker 2: but are just maybe not confident in putting it out
Speaker 2: there ourselves and doing it on our own right. Maybe
Speaker 2: you should speak to a little bit more about, you know,
Speaker 2: what these fire counsils and what types of programs are
Speaker 2: available out there, because there are there are programs in
Speaker 2: many states where you can get assistance. So if you're
Speaker 2: like me and you're kind of a numbskull and you're like,
Speaker 2: I don't know if I should be out there with
Speaker 2: a torch, but you'd like to get it done and
Speaker 2: have some help, there are ways to get that help, right,
Speaker 2: can you can you speak to it a little bit?
Speaker 3: Sure, and you're right, there's training available. Each state does
Speaker 3: it a little differently. Some offer a lot more than others,
Speaker 3: But just like using a tractor or a chainsaw or
Speaker 3: anything else. You can't just grab it and go without
Speaker 3: understanding how to use it. You know, hey, let's be trained.
Speaker 3: So we're using it safely for yourself and for others.
Speaker 3: And in many places you can either get trained or
Speaker 3: there are other people who are already trained that you
Speaker 3: can have come on and help burn, Maybe come on
Speaker 3: and put fire brakes in for you and actually do
Speaker 3: the burning, maybe provide some other assistance. So there's different
Speaker 3: ways that you can have your area burn in different states. Pennsylvania,
Speaker 3: for example, landowners, you're allowed to burn. As a landowner,
Speaker 3: they can't tell me I can't burn. But the problem
Speaker 3: is if I lose the fire on my neighbors are
Speaker 3: burned something up, I am in a lot of trouble
Speaker 3: because there's no liability protection for me. So most states
Speaker 3: have a training program where you can get your prescribed
Speaker 3: burner certification, which means you have been trained in the
Speaker 3: safe use of fire so that you can then pull
Speaker 3: a burn permit when the conditions are appropriate to burn.
Speaker 3: So that provides you some protection. So what I tell
Speaker 3: people is the first understand hey, this can be really
Speaker 3: good for for deer, turkey, upland birds, songbirds, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So if you want to learn how to do it,
Speaker 3: that's great, let's help you find the resources. If not,
Speaker 3: if you just want somebody else to come out and burn,
Speaker 3: hey there's there's you know, consultants that do that. There's
Speaker 3: state and federal agencies that can help you with that.
Speaker 3: You know, in most places there is a way that
Speaker 3: you can get somebody there to help you burn, whether
Speaker 3: you do it or not. So there's different options with that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, you're not You're absolutely not just going out
Speaker 3: in light matches and start because you know that that
Speaker 3: obviously can be extremely dangerous fire, particularly wildfires. We see
Speaker 3: the effects on TV all the time of how bad
Speaker 3: they are. I'll say, you like the conditions, the environmental conditions, humidity, fuel, moisture,
Speaker 3: all of that, you would never use prescribed fire in
Speaker 3: any of those environmental conditions. So the whole idea of
Speaker 3: prescribed fires, you are using it under a prescription of
Speaker 3: certain wind speed, certain wind direction, certain humidity level, all
Speaker 3: of this to put it in as safe in an
Speaker 3: area as possible. In in an area where you have
Speaker 3: fire breaks, which is an area around where you want
Speaker 3: to burn that you have removed the fuel, maybe it's
Speaker 3: disc fire breaks, maybe it's a creek, there's different things,
Speaker 3: but it's the very prescribed use of fire under very
Speaker 3: specific environmental conditions that allow that to be safe the
Speaker 3: vast majority of the time. Those are the type of
Speaker 3: things you get trained to do so that you use
Speaker 3: it appropriately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and is it for the states that have a
Speaker 2: prescribed fire council? Is that the entity to reach out
Speaker 2: to first? If you're looking for some kind of assistance
Speaker 2: or where would you recommend somebody go to figure out
Speaker 2: what kind of helps available?
Speaker 3: The prescribe for our council is a perfect place to
Speaker 3: start with. You can also go to your state's state
Speaker 3: Wildlife agency or state forestry agency. For example, in Pennsylvania,
Speaker 3: the Bureau of Forestry oversees all the fire permits in
Speaker 3: that so, but a prescribe for our council would be
Speaker 3: able to direct you there immediately if it was someplace
Speaker 3: other than them. Our report has all the states that
Speaker 3: have those councils, so if you see that, it's very
Speaker 3: easy to then search online and find them. But you
Speaker 3: can always go to your state wildlife agency as well.
Speaker 3: They would be able to guide you to the appropriate agency.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I want to take another hard pivot
Speaker 2: to another topic that you guys focus on in the
Speaker 2: report and that I think has been showing up in
Speaker 2: the news and on our on our radar more and
Speaker 2: more often here, especially this past twelve months or so,
Speaker 2: and that is the impact of the changing composition of
Speaker 2: fish and game commissions across the nation. So the folks
Speaker 2: who are helping manage wildlife policy and management in the States,
Speaker 2: how that's how those people are getting those jobs, what
Speaker 2: that's doing, how that's changing. And then I think a
Speaker 2: kind of a cousin of this would be ballot box biology,
Speaker 2: which is where we are seeing wildlife management decisions being
Speaker 2: made into ballot initiatives in which the general public is
Speaker 2: then voting on them. And both of these things I
Speaker 2: think are are are married together or they're they're adjacent,
Speaker 2: and I think they represent, you know, some some real
Speaker 2: risk when it comes to wildlife management and hunting in America.
Speaker 2: Can you give me your perspective on a why did
Speaker 2: you want to focus on this in the in the
Speaker 2: report and be you know, what do we need to understand,
Speaker 2: what do we need to be watching for in the
Speaker 2: future to make sure this is something that's that's a
Speaker 2: positive and not a negative.
Speaker 3: Yep. Sure, And you know, let me say one more
Speaker 3: thing about fire first. I'm not should have mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3: I'm coming to your state this summer to get to
Speaker 3: do some of that and a place near and dear
Speaker 3: to your heart. We actually have a learn and burn
Speaker 3: that we're going to do on the Back forty this summer.
Speaker 3: We did one on my place in Pennsylvania. Two years ago,
Speaker 3: we did one in a different place in Pennsylvania's pasture,
Speaker 3: a learning burn where we people can come in, get
Speaker 3: some instruction and actually be on a fire and watch
Speaker 3: what happened. So this is part of the educational part.
Speaker 3: You know, Hey, let's let's show people you don't need
Speaker 3: to be afraid of this. This is you know, the
Speaker 3: ways that we do it. And so yeah, we picked
Speaker 3: Michigan and the Back Forty specifically to do some of that.
Speaker 3: So I look forward to being there this summer. So
Speaker 3: that'll be awesome.
Speaker 2: That'll be awesome, all right.
Speaker 3: So as far as the Fishing Game Council, how they're
Speaker 3: made up, we are heavily involved in wildlife policy because
Speaker 3: we want to make sure that we are fighting as
Speaker 3: hard as possible for deer hunters rights, and there are
Speaker 3: more stakeholders today involved with policy than ever before. Many
Speaker 3: of them don't have hunters best interest in mind, So
Speaker 3: we are involved in that arena a lot. Most deer
Speaker 3: hunters aren't even aware of the National Deer Association of
Speaker 3: the fact that we do this, but we fight for
Speaker 3: all deer hunters rights. It helps us to understand exactly
Speaker 3: the playing fields in all these different states, whether we're
Speaker 3: involved at the federal level or the state level. So
Speaker 3: in this case, we ask this question because we get
Speaker 3: involved in a lot of different state eight wilife agencies
Speaker 3: with this. So we want to know, okay, what is
Speaker 3: the actual composition of that commission because we work with
Speaker 3: those commissions in your state the NRC and my state
Speaker 3: the Board of Commissioners. So it helps to know, okay,
Speaker 3: who are those people sitting there, where they appointed there
Speaker 3: politically or not, or where they elected Because as a
Speaker 3: you know, as a journalist, as a writer, you know
Speaker 3: more than anybody else, you have to know your audience.
Speaker 3: You have to understand your audience whether you're writing, speaking,
Speaker 3: or whatever to be most impactful, same thing in policy.
Speaker 3: So we did this so that we have a better
Speaker 3: understanding of who are those board of commissioners and those
Speaker 3: commissions are those people there you know, are they made
Speaker 3: up of just elected officials that don't really care or
Speaker 3: you know, do they have a you know, a natural
Speaker 3: resource interest? So anyway, that's where that came from. To
Speaker 3: help us better understand what the audience is as we work,
Speaker 3: but then also to help deer hunters in any given
Speaker 3: state understand who is sitting there representing them.
Speaker 2: So that said, that helps me understand the why can
Speaker 2: you can you give me maybe your own perspective, your
Speaker 2: personal take, or if you think the National Dear Association
Speaker 2: has a larger angle on this? Just just where what
Speaker 2: am I trying to say here? What do we need
Speaker 2: to be thinking about or how do we need to
Speaker 2: address the possible risk of new stakeholders on these commissions
Speaker 2: with anti hunting agendas influencing the management of wildlife in
Speaker 2: our states? Do we have any ability to address that
Speaker 2: mitigate that change that This is something that seems to
Speaker 2: be coming up more and more often and seems like
Speaker 2: something we probably need to be not just aware of,
Speaker 2: but also armed to address.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm a fan of having a broad range
Speaker 3: of you know, those commissions. From a stakeholder standpoint, some
Speaker 3: get very nervous if every one of them there isn't
Speaker 3: an avid hunter. I think that there's enough influence just
Speaker 3: legislatively in any state that even if you have a
Speaker 3: stacked commissioner all hunters, you know, you're naive to think
Speaker 3: there's still not political influence impacting what happens. So I
Speaker 3: think it's good for us to have a wider range
Speaker 3: of people there, because deer impact a lot of people.
Speaker 3: In the wider the range of stakeholders we have sitting
Speaker 3: at the table, I firmly believe the better job we
Speaker 3: can do managing those resources. However, I get real nervous.
Speaker 3: You know when when those people are put on their
Speaker 3: you know, whether it's an anti hunter or you know,
Speaker 3: an avid hunter, when they are just politically selected, Boom,
Speaker 3: you're sitting there and suddenly you have a lot of
Speaker 3: influence over what that state wildlife agency does. Love them
Speaker 3: or hate them. State wilife agencies are full of professionals
Speaker 3: who have dedicated their life to wildlife management. I think
Speaker 3: it's good that you have a board of people that
Speaker 3: kind of oversee what they do. But some of those
Speaker 3: boards are phenomenal in that they're taking direction from the agency,
Speaker 3: not just the biologists, the marketers, you know, there are
Speaker 3: three people, all of that and putting all that together.
Speaker 3: Where we run into real problems is where we have
Speaker 3: hand selected politically people sitting there with a very different
Speaker 3: agenda that suddenly have a huge opportunity to influence what
Speaker 3: all of those professionals have done and just unilaterally be like, Okay,
Speaker 3: we have all of this work. Nope, I'm picking over here.
Speaker 3: That's where I think we have the greatest risk. And
Speaker 3: we've seen examples of that increasingly over the past five
Speaker 3: to ten years. So I have real problems with that,
Speaker 3: and not only impacts what goes on with that state.
Speaker 3: It impacts I mean this year, but it impacts in
Speaker 3: the future because we see burnout from state wildlife agencies
Speaker 3: that Hey, our folks are professionals, we're doing the studies,
Speaker 3: we're analyzing the data, we're providing all this. Now I'm
Speaker 3: picking here, well do this again, and suddenly you get
Speaker 3: people like, you know what, it doesn't matter that I
Speaker 3: poured my blood, sweat and tears into this if it
Speaker 3: never matters. So I think there's a real risk in
Speaker 3: you know, not just the decision today, but you know,
Speaker 3: the decisions of you know, the people to go into
Speaker 3: the wildlife profession and work for those agencies five, ten,
Speaker 3: twenty years down the road. I'll say this. When I
Speaker 3: came out of school or when I was in school,
Speaker 3: all I wanted to do was to be a state
Speaker 3: wildlife agency dear biologist. I became that, and you know,
Speaker 3: within six years of state wilife agency work, realized this
Speaker 3: is not at all what I thought this was going
Speaker 3: to be. Like they didn't talk about all the political
Speaker 3: influence and all that, and I think you have to
Speaker 3: have some of that, but it was way more than
Speaker 3: I had was led to believe. And it's only gotten
Speaker 3: worse in the last twenty years. So you were starting
Speaker 3: to see the best students coming out of wildlife programs
Speaker 3: today with zero interest going into state wildlife management. And
Speaker 3: I think that's a problem, and it's influenced by political
Speaker 3: selection of some of these commissioners.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what's the solution to that? What can we do,
Speaker 2: if anything, if we have a commission like that that
Speaker 2: has political appointees that seem to arbitrarily unilaterally taking actions
Speaker 2: that do not align with the best science or recommendations
Speaker 2: from the agency. Do we have any influence to change that?
Speaker 3: We do? In some places yes, and some know. And
Speaker 3: the reason is it's not only political appointees on these commissions.
Speaker 3: Some of it is the executive director of the state
Speaker 3: wilife agencies, and he or she can directly influence what
Speaker 3: the staff does. There are some good examples of where
Speaker 3: that person is not politically appointed. So there's I think
Speaker 3: there's a better opportunity to use the good science that
Speaker 3: that agency does, because if you're not politically appointed, there's
Speaker 3: less reason for you to have those political ties, you know,
Speaker 3: to make sure that, oh yeah, I get to keep
Speaker 3: my job next year, year the year after. So I
Speaker 3: don't work in the political arena, certainly not nearly as
Speaker 3: much as our director of policy does. But I have
Speaker 3: been in it enough to see, boys, you know, there
Speaker 3: can be some serious problems. I'm not naive Mark and
Speaker 3: to think that, hey, there's a magical solution to all
Speaker 3: of this, But I have seen enough problems with some
Speaker 3: of that to make me realize that Hunters, we need
Speaker 3: to be very aware of this, and we need to
Speaker 3: be engaged. It doesn't do us any good to just
Speaker 3: not pay attention or put our head in the sand.
Speaker 3: I think that's when it's the worst four hunters. So
Speaker 3: understanding what's going on always helps, and you know, when
Speaker 3: there's an opportunity to make our voice heard, and we
Speaker 3: do this. All the conservation organizations, you know, through their
Speaker 3: political or through their policy work, you know, have an
Speaker 3: opportunity to let their members know, hey, this is a
Speaker 3: bad deal for you. You know, if you want to
Speaker 3: share your opinion, here's how you do it. We just
Speaker 3: need more hunters to take advantage of that today than before,
Speaker 3: because you know that political swing works both ways. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not just a one way street. If they're hearing
Speaker 3: from a lot of sportsmen and women, you know that
Speaker 3: they're upset about something. Well, that gets noticed at higher
Speaker 3: levels as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the kissing cousin of this kind of thing
Speaker 2: is the ballot box initiatives and wildlife management decisions being
Speaker 2: placed on ballot initiatives to the general public votes on.
Speaker 2: We've seen this most commonly, it seems, with predator related issues.
Speaker 2: But regardless of what you think about predator management, I
Speaker 2: want to speak to the larger issue here of these
Speaker 2: types of wildlife management decisions being taken out of the
Speaker 2: hands of the managing agencies, out of the hands of
Speaker 2: the folks working on the ground that have the science,
Speaker 2: instead putting the decision on you, me, any random person
Speaker 2: out there deciding whether or not we should reintroduce a
Speaker 2: species or outlaw a type of hunting or a practice.
Speaker 2: All of these things now are showing up ons and
Speaker 2: it seems to be some Western states here most recently.
Speaker 2: But can you speak to that risk of that kind
Speaker 2: of thing expanding and is there anything that we can
Speaker 2: do as hunters and anglers to to to mitigate that
Speaker 2: risk or are we just kind of at the whims
Speaker 2: now of where things are going.
Speaker 3: I am not a fan of ballot box, you know,
Speaker 3: wildlefe management stuff at all, as I'm sure you guessed,
Speaker 3: and mostly because wildlife never wins with that. A lot
Speaker 3: of Western states recently have gone those lines. We see that,
Speaker 3: a lot of the Northeast so too. Maine has been
Speaker 3: through that numerous times over the past two decades, you know,
Speaker 3: relative to trapping and bear hunting and some other things.
Speaker 3: So and the reason I say that wildlife doesn't win
Speaker 3: is because wildlife management is very complex. You can't share
Speaker 3: enough information for those ballot boxes for the average hunter.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, the average citizen to make an informed decision.
Speaker 3: But what it's very easy to do, because wildlife is
Speaker 3: so cool, is to show a cuddly picture of something
Speaker 3: and then use that emotion to greatly influence which way
Speaker 3: you want them to swing. We see this with predators,
Speaker 3: you know, with a baby mountain lion. It doesn't have
Speaker 3: to predators, though. I can show you a cute picture
Speaker 3: of a faon who's a prey item and swing people
Speaker 3: that way. I can show you a cute picture of
Speaker 3: a possum mother possum holding you know, babies, and swing it.
Speaker 3: So we have the opportunity for emotion to override everything
Speaker 3: else when we get into these wildlife ballot box initiatives.
Speaker 3: And that's why I say wildlife loses, because we end
Speaker 3: up with emotion driving of the situation. And then once
Speaker 3: that's done, you're left with the public and the state
Speaker 3: Wilife agency to pick up the pieces. You know, it'd
Speaker 3: be like, we have a ballot box initiative. Do you
Speaker 3: want your local bank to give you everybody you know
Speaker 3: an extra hundred dollars today ballot box? Well, heck yeah,
Speaker 3: everybody vote yes. And afterwards they go to the bankers
Speaker 3: and say, Okay, this is what the public voted. Now
Speaker 3: you figure out how to make this work. You can't
Speaker 3: do that. But it's the same analogy when they take
Speaker 3: this to the wildlife age, Okay, now you figured out. Well,
Speaker 3: gizu know, we were arguing against us all along because
Speaker 3: this won't work regardless take you know, take the wolf
Speaker 3: thing in Colorado. I don't care if you love wolves
Speaker 3: or don't love wolves. The ballot box is not the
Speaker 3: way to make that happen because it's never going to
Speaker 3: be successful that way, regardless of which side of the
Speaker 3: issue you're on. So, yeah, I'm not a fan of.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the so that the next question is again kind
Speaker 2: of the same thing I said with the commissions. Do
Speaker 2: we have any leverage when it comes to this stuff
Speaker 2: other than just pushing back to our representatives within within
Speaker 2: the within the government stating the case like, hey, we
Speaker 2: don't like these things.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that we certainly can and should let
Speaker 3: our represent representatives know, Hey, this is how I feel
Speaker 3: about this. You know you're representing me. But I think
Speaker 3: that our agencies also have an opportunity way before the
Speaker 3: ballot part of it to have some very strong educational
Speaker 3: campaigns out there about whatever species is. You know, those
Speaker 3: type of things can move the needle. That's one of
Speaker 3: the reasons this past year where the Southeastier Partnership where
Speaker 3: we did the you know, the documentary with wild Tail
Speaker 3: America's Greatest conservation success story. That whole project was about
Speaker 3: showing the value of deer, not just to hunters, but
Speaker 3: mostly to non hunters. I don't care if you hunt
Speaker 3: or not. If you live in the east the southeastern US,
Speaker 3: you're impacted by deer, whether you hit them with a car,
Speaker 3: whether you see them in a field, whether you like
Speaker 3: to feed birds. Deer are impacting those birds, and deer
Speaker 3: hunters are funding that. So let's show the value of
Speaker 3: deer to people. We want hunters to be able to
Speaker 3: speak more intelligent about them, but the non hunting public,
Speaker 3: we want them to know more. I think it's those
Speaker 3: type of efforts about these other species as well, in
Speaker 3: advance of those ballot box whether it's wolves in Colorado
Speaker 3: or bears in Washington or whatever. I think those are
Speaker 3: the type of things where our agencies in this case
Speaker 3: it was a conglomeration of agencies, but state Wildlife agents
Speaker 3: as well, can do more from an educational campaign and
Speaker 3: not just a one time thing. You know, it has
Speaker 3: something has to be long term that you know, can
Speaker 3: help influence public sentiment around what these issues are because
Speaker 3: once it gets to the battot box, then emotion ends
Speaker 3: up taking over too much because the timeline is small.
Speaker 3: We have to play the long game with making folks understand,
Speaker 3: you know, why something is good for a wildlife species
Speaker 3: or not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's no easy fix here, no easy answer,
Speaker 2: that's for certain, and that is so often the case
Speaker 2: when it comes to wildlife or deer in particular. So
Speaker 2: you've wrapped up the report, it's been out there in
Speaker 2: the world for a little while. Now when you close
Speaker 2: your eyes goes at night with this information now on
Speaker 2: hand or anything else that's going on in the world
Speaker 2: of white tails, kid, what is one trend or one
Speaker 2: issue at hand that is keeping you up at night
Speaker 2: and what is one thing that gives you hope for
Speaker 2: the future.
Speaker 3: One thing that keeps me up at night is we
Speaker 3: go through so many revisions of this, I think, man,
Speaker 3: I hope we found all the airs. There are literally,
Speaker 3: you know, millions of numbers in here from forty eight
Speaker 3: different state wildlife agencies, and we go through a very
Speaker 3: rigorous process among our staff will review look count number.
Speaker 3: Then it all goes back to the state wildlife agencies
Speaker 3: to review again and they make revisions like ooh, this
Speaker 3: wasn't So we do such an effort to minimize errors.
Speaker 3: But I know there, I'm sure there are still some
Speaker 3: in there, so it bothers me. You know that we
Speaker 3: have airs, so that definitely keeps me up. But as
Speaker 3: far as an an actual trend, CWD is, is there,
Speaker 3: if not the top right near the top, just because
Speaker 3: it's such a big issue that we can't solve in
Speaker 3: one year, you know, we certainly look at it as
Speaker 3: one of the biggest things affecting the future, as do
Speaker 3: the vast majority of wildlife professionals. There's certainly some folks
Speaker 3: out there that say this is not a big deal
Speaker 3: or whatever, but you know, the vast majority, and I'm talking,
Speaker 3: you know, above ninety percent of all wildlife professionals see
Speaker 3: this as one of the biggest issues impact in the
Speaker 3: future of deer and deer hunting, So so that one
Speaker 3: definitely keeps me out thinking and wondering. For my part,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not a scientist that studies the epidemiology
Speaker 3: or that. For my part, I think it was okay, like,
Speaker 3: what can I do to help share some more information
Speaker 3: with hunters and what can we as an organization do
Speaker 3: you know, to help hunters have a bigger piece of
Speaker 3: this to you know, to help solve this. So that
Speaker 3: that's where I am on that. But the CWD mark,
Speaker 3: even though I'm an optimist and we will solve this,
Speaker 3: I have no doubt that one definitely keeps me up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then what gives you hope, what's got you
Speaker 2: excited or feeling good about the future.
Speaker 3: To take a look at where we are today deer hunting.
Speaker 3: Think about when your wildlife career started, or my wildlife
Speaker 3: career started, the makeup of the deer herd was so different,
Speaker 3: very skewed toward young bucks, very skewed toward bucks and
Speaker 3: not you know, I'm sorry, very skewed toward antlust deer
Speaker 3: and not enough bucks. Today that is very different. We
Speaker 3: said earlier, we have the best age structure on the
Speaker 3: bucks side that we've had in at least the last
Speaker 3: one hundred to one hundred and fifty years. Yeah, we
Speaker 3: have some regulations from the state wildlife agencies that helped that,
Speaker 3: But it has been an entire change in the hunting
Speaker 3: culture to get there. I know it is one hundred
Speaker 3: and eighty degrees for me from where I started hunting,
Speaker 3: you know, in the early eighties in Pennsylvania. I know
Speaker 3: it's very different for you in Michigan as well. Think
Speaker 3: about where we were to where we are today. There
Speaker 3: that is a huge gain, like tremendous game. That gives
Speaker 3: me good hope that whether it's CWD or anything else, Hey,
Speaker 3: hunters helped fix this. Hunters have helped fix almost everything
Speaker 3: that impacts deer, you know, for the last several hundred years.
Speaker 3: So that gives me hope that, you know what, We're
Speaker 3: going to be part of the solution again. We work
Speaker 3: closer with our state wilife agencies than ever before. We're
Speaker 3: more educated than ever before. There's more resources like your
Speaker 3: podcast than ever before to share good information and teach.
Speaker 3: So think that I'm very hopeful about is you know
Speaker 3: what I have seen tremendous gains for the good of
Speaker 3: deer hunting and deer management, and hunters were part of
Speaker 3: that will be part of it again.
Speaker 2: Here here I agree with you on that one Kim,
Speaker 2: So give me the plug for anyone listening. How can
Speaker 2: somebody get the twenty twenty four Deer Report for themselves
Speaker 2: and review the numbers and review There's a whole lot
Speaker 2: more on the report we didn't get to, so there's
Speaker 2: a lot to dig into if you're interested. So where
Speaker 2: can they find that? How can they become a member
Speaker 2: of the National Dear Association and why should they do that?
Speaker 3: They can get the report for free at our website,
Speaker 3: which is Dear Association dot com. They can go there
Speaker 3: to our just click NDA Programs Deer Report, and then
Speaker 3: you can download this year's as well as every other years.
Speaker 3: They're all right there for free. We even have an
Speaker 3: interactive index there with them that you can search by
Speaker 3: topic and you know and immediately go to whatever that
Speaker 3: topic is in all of those years deer reports. So
Speaker 3: we try to make it easy as possible folks to
Speaker 3: do that. To become a member, they can sign up
Speaker 3: right at our website. We have different membership levels. A
Speaker 3: great one is our Premium Member, which used to be
Speaker 3: what we called an annual member, but that gives them
Speaker 3: access to all kinds of discounts for things that are
Speaker 3: NBA sponsors or text optics on X. The list goes
Speaker 3: on and on, and you will get way more than
Speaker 3: monetary benefit from those places by the low membership fee there.
Speaker 3: So you can do that and have access to all
Speaker 3: of our stuff. If you say, you know what, I'm
Speaker 3: just not into to a paying membership. We have a
Speaker 3: free membership option that we started this past year that
Speaker 3: we think is pretty novel and we're excited about. You
Speaker 3: can join for free. Doesn't get you the all the
Speaker 3: discounts for all of the sponsors that we have, but
Speaker 3: it at least gets you our weekly newsletter and so
Speaker 3: that you can be aware of all the stuff that's
Speaker 3: going on in the dear world. So very simple way
Speaker 3: to stay connected without having to pay anything. If you're
Speaker 3: on pay a little bit, you get way more benefits,
Speaker 3: you know, from those other places as well. So I
Speaker 3: like it that we're trying to appeal to a broader
Speaker 3: range of deer hunters that you know, may have the
Speaker 3: means to join with an annual fee or not. So
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty cool. But they can do that
Speaker 3: all at Dear Association dot.
Speaker 2: Com perfect well. I would certainly encourage anyone listening to
Speaker 2: do that and to sign up for that premium membership.
Speaker 2: If nothing else, you can look at that as a
Speaker 2: donation to a really important organization that has done tremendous
Speaker 2: things for our deer hunting opportunities over the years. And
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan and appreciative of the work you
Speaker 2: guys have done, so that appreciation extends to you, specifically
Speaker 2: to Kip. Thank you. Thank you as always for this
Speaker 2: conversation and for everything over the years. You've taught me
Speaker 2: personally so much, and I appreciate that well, thank.
Speaker 3: You very much. Like that, I've certainly enjoyed our friendship
Speaker 3: over the years, and I learned a bunch from you
Speaker 3: as well, and and certainly respect the audience that you have.
Speaker 3: And you know how much good you do sharing information
Speaker 3: and getting it out there to folks. So you've had
Speaker 3: a big impact. And so I'm glad to be here
Speaker 3: and maybe play a small part in some of the
Speaker 3: information for at least the month of January.
Speaker 2: Agreed, Well, how about we do this twelve months from.
Speaker 3: Now again, sounds good. I'm looking forward to it. So
Speaker 3: thank you for the opportunity, Mark, and you have a
Speaker 3: great day.
Speaker 2: All right, And that is a wrap. I'll just echo
Speaker 2: what Kip said. Head on over to Dearassociation dot com,
Speaker 2: get a copy of the report, come a member, follow along.
Speaker 2: They provide all sorts of great educational resources as well
Speaker 2: as policy updates, action emails, different things that you can
Speaker 2: do to take action and help the future of deer
Speaker 2: hunting in your state across the country, whether it be
Speaker 2: sending an email, making a phone call, showing up for
Speaker 2: a volunteer event. The NBA is coordinating a lot of
Speaker 2: this stuff and it's great to be involved in that.
Speaker 2: So thanks for tuning in, thanks for being a part
Speaker 2: of this, and until next time, thank you and stay
Speaker 2: wired to hunt.