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Speaker 1: It was you, Kristen. I watched a lot of TV

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Speaker 1: growing up. When I was nine, I memorized the TV guide.

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Speaker 1: When my brother Lawrence told Missus Barnett across the street

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Speaker 1: that he had a younger brother, she didn't believe him.

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Speaker 1: You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. That's how little

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Speaker 1: I went outside. I learned early on that the television

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Speaker 1: universe is divided into hour long dramas I Trusted You,

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Speaker 1: and half hour sitcoms. Everybody on dramas, death is a

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Speaker 1: fact of life. Consider that, over the course of the

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Speaker 1: six seasons of The Sopranos, ninety two characters died.

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Speaker 2: You shot him in his pat naked no chance to run,

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Speaker 2: I swear to god.

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Speaker 1: It's even grizzlier on Game of Thrones, where characters have

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Speaker 1: a seventy chance of getting killed off.

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Speaker 2: Reds.

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Speaker 1: But today we're talking about something far more mysterious, something

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Speaker 1: that's haunted me ever since my childhood basement dwelling days,

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Speaker 1: something that just shouldn't happen. I'm Morocca, and this is mobituaries,

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Speaker 1: this mobid sitcom depths and disappearances. I brought in an

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Speaker 1: expert to help me investigate the phenomenon of sitcom deaths

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Speaker 1: and disappearances.

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Speaker 3: I'm Alan Sepenwall, chief TV critic for Rolling Stone. I've

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Speaker 3: been writing about TV since the nineties when there were

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Speaker 3: like five channels, and now there's you know, five hundred

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Speaker 3: different scripted shows on TV right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm not the first person to say, but there's too

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Speaker 1: much TV.

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Speaker 3: There really is, you know, and it's good to hear,

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Speaker 3: like people who are not TV critics say that.

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Speaker 1: And also, the Western world's fertility rates are really low,

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Speaker 1: so there's just not enough people to.

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Speaker 2: Watch these shows.

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Speaker 3: You know, who's going to watch Longmeyer. I don't have

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Speaker 3: time to do it. And I'm sure it's a fine show,

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Speaker 3: but there's so many other.

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Speaker 1: Things, so many it's like when you hear about how

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Speaker 1: big the universe actually is and it starts to hurt.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: And like the Netflix interface alone, it's like you you

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Speaker 3: could spend like the length of a movie looking for

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Speaker 3: a movie.

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Speaker 1: Our topic here is sitcom depths and disappearances, one of

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Speaker 1: the great mysteries. So I actually died once on TV.

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Speaker 1: It was not on a sitcom. It was on an

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Speaker 1: hour long drama on Law and Order, Criminal Intent. I

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Speaker 1: played a gossip column. It's named T K. Richmond. They

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Speaker 1: even gave me a fedora to wear. I've never ever

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Speaker 1: watched this, I promise you. I swear I've never seen this,

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Speaker 1: and I thought I would watch it with an esteemed

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Speaker 1: television critic for the first time. So, Alen, if you

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Speaker 1: join me for this, here we go.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Oh God, that hat doesn't really work on me. Elliott, Elliott,

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Speaker 1: calm down. There's nothing that says these pictures have to

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Speaker 1: run in.

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Speaker 2: My column blackmail photos.

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Speaker 1: We're in a car now. It's not a bribe, it's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity. This is going to be the hot new place.

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Speaker 2: This the pictures go away, right right?

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Speaker 1: I do have a little integrity.

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Speaker 2: Did you just blow up? The hell was that?

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Speaker 1: I just blew up?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Do they show my charred remains?

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Speaker 2: Oh no?

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Speaker 1: Oh my hat?

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Speaker 2: The hat survives. That's good.

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Speaker 1: What do you think did I pass as a New

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Speaker 1: York Post gossip reporter?

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Speaker 2: I mean your look was very sweet, smell of success.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I love any Tony Curtis comparison. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So lots of people die in our long dramas. I think,

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Speaker 1: actually that's right, that's the main ingredient. Somebody has to

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Speaker 1: die in every law and order, and there have been

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Speaker 1: three thousand of them. But for someone to die or

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Speaker 1: disappear on a sitcom, it's much different.

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Speaker 3: Why Because sitcom's, in theory, are meant to be a

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Speaker 3: little bit lighter, more relatable, more relaxing. It's You're going

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Speaker 3: to spend some happy time laughing at, you know, someone

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Speaker 3: tripping over the couch, or forgetting to pick up the

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Speaker 3: groceries or something relatively simple.

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Speaker 2: Death is not that.

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Speaker 1: In other words, sitcom audiences don't want characters to die,

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Speaker 1: which is why in some rare cases the characters have

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Speaker 1: just disappeared without any explanation, a syndrome given its own name.

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Speaker 3: Cunningham syndrome. There was Chuck Cunningham, the third Cunningham child

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Speaker 3: on Happy Days, the eldest Cunningham child, who was in

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Speaker 3: the show for two seasons and then was never heard

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Speaker 3: from or mentioned again.

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Speaker 1: And who was Chuck Cunningham? You said the third child,

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Speaker 1: But I'm glad you corrected yourself and said the eldest,

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Speaker 1: because he was the first child.

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Speaker 3: Not that Howard and Marian acted like he was particularly special.

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Speaker 3: I mean he lived in the apartment above the garage

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Speaker 3: before Fonsie did. He was usually when you saw him

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Speaker 3: either carrying a basketball or eating food, or possibly both.

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Speaker 1: I got to go to basketball practice.

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Speaker 2: He was not really a prominent part of the show.

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Speaker 3: And then a couple of years in the producers decided

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Speaker 3: we don't need another Cunningham and we want Fonzie to

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Speaker 3: live above the garage, and so Chuck disappeared and never

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Speaker 3: came back.

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Speaker 1: You're right, the basketball and the sand, which were his

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Speaker 1: chief accessories. I mean, that's the thing we remember from him, Suck.

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Speaker 2: I've told you not to dribble in the house, all right, dad.

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Speaker 2: Do we remember anything about him really?

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Speaker 5: Well?

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Speaker 1: I think we remember that he disappeared.

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Speaker 3: Yes, But when that's the most memorable thing about you,

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Speaker 3: that sort of speaks to why they were willing to

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Speaker 3: get rid of him in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Good point, good, But well, do you think the fix

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Speaker 1: was in for him? Did it feel like vultures were

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Speaker 1: circling over him during those first two seasons?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean he started getting less and less to do,

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Speaker 3: and that was a show that was obviously going through

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Speaker 3: a lot of behind the scenes transformations over those first

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Speaker 3: couple of years. Is that right, Yeah, Phonzie's a relatively

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Speaker 3: minor character when you start watching the show on Fox.

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Speaker 3: They wouldn't even allow him to wear the black leather

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Speaker 3: jacket when he was on the motorcycle because the network

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Speaker 3: feared that he looked too much like a hoodlum and

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Speaker 3: the audience wouldn't want to watch that. And once they

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Speaker 3: decided to beef up Phonsie's role, and you have shifted

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Speaker 3: from a single campsit come shot on film to a

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Speaker 3: multicam shot in front of an audience.

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Speaker 2: Bye Bye, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: So I talked to Henry Winkler and I asked him

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Speaker 1: did Chuck have to disappear? And here's what he said.

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Speaker 6: They did not have room in the writing for the

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Speaker 6: older brother because the fawns became the older brother. Everything

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Speaker 6: that you would go to the older brother for, Richie

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Speaker 6: went to the fawns for Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, if you had to choose between who you

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Speaker 3: were going to get advice from about girls, about cars,

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Speaker 3: about being cool, about being anything, why would you not

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Speaker 3: go to Arthur Fonzarelli.

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Speaker 6: All right, now, listen up girl, one time, one time

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Speaker 6: movie line, right up, pick kissed the funds for a buck?

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Speaker 1: That's a bog in any brite right exactly, And so

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Speaker 1: Gary Marshall, the creator of Happy Days, was obviously great

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Speaker 1: at what he did. So he makes the calculation that

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Speaker 1: if this character disappears, the audience will be fine with it,

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Speaker 1: something that I asked Henry about.

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Speaker 6: Only years later did I ask Gary what happened?

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Speaker 1: And he explained to me, Hey, what did he say?

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Speaker 6: It was the older brother, and I didn't know how

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Speaker 6: to write for him, and then did write for you,

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Speaker 6: and we had to let him go, and then it

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Speaker 6: was a terrible well thing. He went upstairs, he never

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Speaker 6: came down.

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Speaker 1: And Gary understood that the audience would accept that.

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Speaker 6: Gary understood television was so well or well enough to

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Speaker 6: know that if you've got this problem and you write

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Speaker 6: him out, you don't make a big deal out of

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Speaker 6: getting rid of the character. It will be like slime.

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Speaker 6: You can poke a hole in this slime and it

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Speaker 6: closes in on itself and becomes whole again.

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Speaker 1: So Alan was Henry right about this.

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Speaker 2: Mostly obviously, people still brought it up.

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Speaker 3: They bring it up all the time, and especially whenever

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Speaker 3: in the later seasons Howard and Marion would make a

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Speaker 3: reference to their two children. In the very last episode

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Speaker 3: of the series, Jony and Chachi get married, and Howard

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Speaker 3: makes a toast, you know, talking about all the happy

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Speaker 3: days that he.

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Speaker 2: And Marion have had, and he says, but we've had

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Speaker 2: the joy of raising two wonderful kids.

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Speaker 3: And I was, you know, nerdy enough even at that

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Speaker 3: age to say what about Chuck?

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Speaker 1: I mean, harsh Henry told me he gets asked all

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Speaker 1: the time about Chuck's fate.

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Speaker 6: Oh a million times, Hey, what happened to Chuck? Nobody

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Speaker 6: is really interested, and they just love the question, you know,

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Speaker 6: I'm so sorry, but it's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no one actually cares about Chuck. It's literally

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Speaker 3: just the fact that they pretended he didn't exist. I

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Speaker 3: think if they'd said Chuck moved away, Chuck goes to Seattle.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, he could have just become an off stage character

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Speaker 1: that they refer to occasionally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, not all families are so

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Speaker 3: tight knit that they're always around and always need each

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Speaker 3: other's business. You know, even if Chuck did' have a

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Speaker 3: falling out, maybe he just had a full life of

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Speaker 3: his own far far away from Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: So for Phonsie to live, Chuck had to die. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the sitcom universe is even harsher than the Law and

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Speaker 1: Order Criminal Intent universe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's.

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Speaker 3: Just like because he's not even dead, he's he's.

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Speaker 2: No longer in this reality. It's sad.

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Speaker 1: Well, Alan, As I'm sure you know, the Internet is

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Speaker 1: replete with theories about what happened to Chuck, so of

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Speaker 1: course I had to run some of these by Henry

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Speaker 1: Confirmer Denies. See these widely circulated theories among fans about

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Speaker 1: what happened to Chuck Cunningham. One he died in Vietnam. No,

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Speaker 1: still in his bedroom. Yes, this is a serious one.

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Speaker 1: Was gay and disowned by his family because it was

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Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties.

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Speaker 6: Ooh no, I don't think he would have been disowned

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Speaker 6: by the Cunninghams. I think that Missus C for sure

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Speaker 6: would have embraced him.

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Speaker 1: Would mister C really been okay with that?

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Speaker 6: Mister C was very busy with hammers. Remember he owned

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Speaker 6: a hardware store that was like always on the brink.

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Speaker 1: Right right, okay, So he was otherwise occupied, So Missus

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Speaker 1: C would have handled this, okay. Gary Marshall always told

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Speaker 1: people that Chuck Cunningham got a basketball scholarship in Mongolia.

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Speaker 6: That sounds really right.

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Speaker 1: And the sad truth is, I think we're all used

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Speaker 1: to sort of pretending that someone who has existed doesn't

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Speaker 1: exist anymore.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, I've done that.

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Speaker 1: We go to a very dark place, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: We've all had an older relative tell us, don't talk

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Speaker 1: about that person. That person doesn't exist anymore.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there's these family feuds and suddenly we don't talk

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Speaker 3: about this on to anymore. Yeah, I mean, Chuck could

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Speaker 3: have done something really awful. The Cunninghams are a very decent,

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Speaker 3: you know, apple pie kind of family.

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Speaker 2: Chuck could have been a deviant.

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Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, that last episode of Joni and

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Speaker 1: Chochi getting married that led to the spinoff.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, the spinoff was in the middle of the show.

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Speaker 3: It was it really Yes, they left Happy Days for

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Speaker 3: like maybe half a year, maybe more to go do

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Speaker 3: Joni Loves Chochi, which is the worst theme song in

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Speaker 3: the history of television.

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Speaker 1: Right, I actually like Joni Loves Chauci. I always thought

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Speaker 1: that it would be fun if there was yet another

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Speaker 1: spinoff where Jonie moves to the shore and opens a

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Speaker 1: little store where she sells knick knacks and bobbles, and

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Speaker 1: it would be.

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Speaker 2: Called Jony loves Choch Keys.

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Speaker 1: God, I'm so glad. I love that you got it, No,

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Speaker 1: whatever gets it.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: And now we take a moment to remember another dearly

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Speaker 1: departed sitcom character, Judy Winslow, who spent four seasons on

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Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties hit sitcom Family Matters. Family Matters told

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Speaker 1: a story of a working class family in Chicago with

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Speaker 1: three kids. Judy was the youngest.

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Speaker 5: Hi, this is Jamie Foxworth and most people might know

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Speaker 5: me as Judy Winslow from the television show Family Matters.

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Speaker 1: Jamie Foxworth started playing Judy when she was just a

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Speaker 1: middle schooler. Judy was the sassy little girl with a

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Speaker 1: quick wit and shark one liners what I'm.

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Speaker 7: Cold and I'm cracked dolessly.

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Speaker 1: But over time Jamie started to notice that Judy wasn't

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Speaker 1: being given as much sass to throw around.

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Speaker 5: I was getting less and less screen time, and it

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Speaker 5: was always like Judy goes up to her room, Like

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Speaker 5: I would literally be down, you know, in a living

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Speaker 5: room with everybody else, and I would say, okay, guys,

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Speaker 5: and the next thing you know, Judy's right up the steps.

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Speaker 1: Just like the fawns in Happy days, Family Matters had

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Speaker 1: found its star a pesky next door neighbor in suspenders

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Speaker 1: and thick, grimmed glasses.

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Speaker 2: Either the le at your service.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Berkle, because his unstoppable rise would mean the

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Speaker 1: sad decline of Judy Winslow. Yes, you did, Erkle. It

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Speaker 1: was during the taping of what would be her final

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Speaker 1: episode that Jamie noticed people acting strangely.

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Speaker 5: I do remember just the cast just coming up to

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Speaker 5: me and like giving me so much love and hugs

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Speaker 5: and affection, and I was like, what's going on here?

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Speaker 5: You guys like it? Why is everybody acting so weird?

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Speaker 1: She remembers that Reginald Belle Johnson, who played her father

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Speaker 1: on the show, was particularly emotional.

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Speaker 5: He was literally on his knees and he was in tears,

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Speaker 5: and I just remember looking at him like, dude, what

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Speaker 5: is going on?

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Speaker 1: On February twenty sixth, nineteen ninety three, as fans, well,

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Speaker 1: remember Grandma Winslow got married. Judy was a flower girl.

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Speaker 1: She walked down the aisle and was never seen again.

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Speaker 5: To this day, everyone asked me the same question, what

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Speaker 5: happened to you?

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Speaker 1: How could they just leave the daughter off?

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Speaker 5: And I'm like, hey, you gotta ask those producers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I think they thought that people would just forget, and

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Speaker 5: nobody forgot.

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Speaker 1: The character of Judy was survived by her older brother

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Speaker 1: and sister, her mother and father. Okay, as weird as

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Speaker 1: a character disappearing into the ether may be, there's another

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Speaker 1: occurrence which is equally disorienting. An actor who suddenly disappears

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Speaker 1: replaced by another actor in the same role. This first

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Speaker 1: famously happened on the nineteen sixties hit fantasy sitcom Bewitched, when,

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Speaker 1: after five successful seasons, the show's leading man underwent a

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Speaker 1: casting change, giving rise to what would become known in

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Speaker 1: TV lore as the two Darren's. I caught up with

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Speaker 1: Lila Garrett, who wrote for Bewitched and experienced the ripples

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Speaker 1: of the Darren effect firsthand.

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Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Lyla Garrett, and I'm a writer and a

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Speaker 4: producer and a director. Some people think of me as

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Speaker 4: a legend. I don't enjoy thinking of myself that way.

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Speaker 1: Well, Llilah, I would say that you're a legend.

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Speaker 4: I know, I know it's a heavy burden, but I'm

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Speaker 4: willing to carry it.

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Speaker 1: Lylah wrote for top scripted shows like Get Smart and

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Speaker 1: All in the Family and the Lucy Show at a

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Speaker 1: time when women were rarely seen in a writer's room.

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Speaker 1: She's got two Emmys and a Writer's Guild Award to

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Speaker 1: show for it, But out of the more than thirty

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Speaker 1: shows she's written for, it's not hard for her to

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Speaker 1: name her favorite.

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Speaker 4: There is no show that I have ever done that

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Speaker 4: I enjoyed more than Bewitched, and I enjoyed every minute

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Speaker 4: of it.

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Speaker 1: Bewitched was a big hit in the nineteen sixties into

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. It was about a young, happy couple

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Speaker 1: housewife Samantha played by Elizabeth Montgomery and at executive husband

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Speaker 1: Darren originally played by Dick Yorke. The only problem on.

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Speaker 3: Their honeymoon night, she tells him that there's something that

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Speaker 3: she's kept secret from him.

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Speaker 2: She is a witch.

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Speaker 3: And rather than be excited about the possibility of having

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Speaker 3: this utiful wife who can also perform magic and do

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Speaker 3: anything for him, Darren Stevens decides that he you know,

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Speaker 3: he's a man, gosh darn it, and he does not

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Speaker 3: want his wife doing magic. And the eternal struggle of

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Speaker 3: the show is all these magical hijunks happening in the background.

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Speaker 2: Much to Darren's frustration.

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Speaker 1: Which means that Darren Stephens's character is essential, Yes.

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Speaker 3: Because he is always exasperated by what happens.

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Speaker 1: Come on here and face me.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you've been sticking that magic nose of yours where

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Speaker 4: it doesn't belong.

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Speaker 2: Again, don't quite to deny it, all right, I won't.

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Speaker 1: Come on, Sam, don't make me drag it out of you.

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Speaker 2: Just you admit it.

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Speaker 1: Dick York was really good. Yeah, he's very good to me.

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Speaker 1: He's sort of Jim Carrey good.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's very expressive, very just sort of a memorable

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Speaker 3: vocal comic, even to extent physical comic.

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Speaker 1: He had a great face. Yeah, I mean real plastic.

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Speaker 1: I would say a rubber face. Rubber Yeah, it could

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Speaker 1: go anywhere, you know.

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Speaker 4: Every expression of his was wonderful and clear, and he's funny.

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Speaker 3: His responses to everything that was happening around him drove

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Speaker 3: a lot of comedy on the show. Samantha, despite having

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Speaker 3: the magic powers, she's the straight man on the show.

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Speaker 3: He's the one having the fun because he can't believe

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Speaker 3: what's going on around him.

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Speaker 2: What little favor I asked you to do? And what

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Speaker 2: do you do?

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Speaker 7: You wegle that beak of yours and really caused problem.

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Speaker 4: He was spectacular, and he was a spectacular man.

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Speaker 1: As great as he was in the role, Dick Yorke

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Speaker 1: had a secret. Well.

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Speaker 4: We first noticed the problems with Dick Yorke really in

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Speaker 4: the second year. Suddenly he couldn't make it for the

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Speaker 4: show that we were writing. And at first it just

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Speaker 4: seemed as though he may have had the flu and

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Speaker 4: so on. But when it became a habit, we recognized

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Speaker 4: that there was a real problem there, and ultimately we

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Speaker 4: found out what that problem was.

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Speaker 1: York had sustained a serious back injury on the set

359
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Speaker 1: of the nineteen fifty nine Western. They came to Cordura.

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Speaker 1: Acting became harder and harder for him, and then practically

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Speaker 1: intolerable some scenes and bewitched. He could only do sitting

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Speaker 1: or lying down. He took medication to manage the pain

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Speaker 1: and ultimately became dependent. Dick York started missing shows so

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Speaker 1: often the writers had to create what they called non

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Speaker 1: Darren shows. On these episodes, the writers would render Darren

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Speaker 1: invisible for most of the half hour, often via witchcraft.

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Speaker 1: With Darren out of the picture, they leaned on Samantha's

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Speaker 1: colorful relatives to fill out the episode.

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Speaker 4: There was Uncle Arthur, who was played by Paul in

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Speaker 4: one of the World's Greatest comics.

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Speaker 1: One morning I shot a line in my pajamas, Now

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Speaker 1: what he was doing in my jogas? And then there

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Speaker 1: was in Dora played by Agnes Moorehead.

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Speaker 2: Duwood is already a practical.

375
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Speaker 4: Joe who was Samantha's mischievous and kind of playfully vicious mother.

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Speaker 1: But there was only so much slack the secondary characters

377
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Speaker 1: could pick up. Eventually, dick York was hospitalized and left

378
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Speaker 1: the show. So dick Yorke was gone. But what to

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Speaker 1: do about the character of Darren if.

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Speaker 3: She can't divorce him? The whole structure of the show

381
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Speaker 3: is based on this marriage, So what are you gonna do?

382
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Speaker 1: They really can't get divorced because even years later, when

383
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Speaker 1: they wanted to make Mary Tyler Morris character Mary Richards

384
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Speaker 1: a divorced woman, that alone was scandalous.

385
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're certainly not going to divorce a beloved

386
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Speaker 3: couple in the middle of the show.

387
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Speaker 4: We couldn't possibly kill off the first Darren because he

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Speaker 4: was part of the concept of the show.

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Speaker 2: This was a love affair.

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Speaker 4: And then someone who looked a lot like Dick York

391
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Speaker 4: was cast as Darren and that was Dick's Sargeant.

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Speaker 3: So Dick Sergeant replaces Dick York and they just acted

393
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Speaker 3: like it was the same Darn the whole time.

394
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Speaker 1: But let's face it, you never forget your first Darren.

395
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Speaker 1: This one wasn't the same, especially his connection to Samantha.

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Speaker 4: Honey, your beautiful, sweet, clever, adorable and I love you madly.

397
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Speaker 2: It works well, it doesn't work on me, but I

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Speaker 2: love you.

399
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: Did they lack chemistry? Elizabeth Montgomery with the second Darren

400
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: with Dick Sergeant, Yes.

401
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 4: I had to use the word luck, but the chemistry

402
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 4: was different. Chemistry is chemistry. With Dick's Sergeant, you felt

403
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 4: as though, oh, let her use magic.

404
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 1: Who cares?

405
00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 4: Darren the first was in much more agony and anxiety

406
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Speaker 4: than Darren the second.

407
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Speaker 1: Just listen to how the new Darren says his wife's name.

408
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 1: Now listen to Darren classic.

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Speaker 4: And Dick's Sergeant would have been more appropriately cast as

410
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Speaker 4: the head of a detective agency. And he's a good actors,

411
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 4: nothing wrong with them, but he wasn't right for the

412
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,679
Speaker 4: part of Darren, and that hurt the show.

413
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Speaker 1: So did that change, which he had to do in

414
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Speaker 1: the writer's room.

415
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Speaker 4: Well, we've got Darren number two in less trouble because

416
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 4: he didn't handle it as vulnerably as Darren number one did,

417
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 4: and therefore it wasn't fun, you know, and he became

418
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 4: more of an observer than a participant. It never captured

419
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 4: the same magic. No one ever denied that, and it

420
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Speaker 4: did kind of shake us all up.

421
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Speaker 1: And once again it was that zany cast of secondary

422
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Speaker 1: characters to the rescue and Dora, Uncle Arthur help me

423
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Speaker 1: out here.

424
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: Allen doctor Bombay played by Bernard Fox. Alice Ghostly came

425
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,040
Speaker 3: in as as Morelda. There was a lot of sort

426
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 3: of ancillary magical characters who had to pick up the

427
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 3: slack that Dick Sergeant was leaving them. You could basically

428
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: do anything accept stories about the Stevens marriage, because that

429
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 3: ceased to be interesting almost immediately after Dicky Yorke left

430
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Speaker 3: and Dix Sergent came in.

431
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Speaker 1: These were all great satellite characters, but without that core.

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00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's like here's a bunch of great

433
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 3: side dishes that we now have to serve as your entree.

434
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Speaker 1: The Insergent's first season as Darren, the show's ratings dropped

435
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: from number twelve to number twenty four. The following season,

436
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: it fell off the ratings cliff and was canceled. This

437
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first or last time a major character

438
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 1: had had a casting change mid run. The Darren handoff

439
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: may be the most remembered mid run casting change on

440
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,640
Speaker 1: a television show, but this kind of thing has happened

441
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: on more than a few beloved sitcoms.

442
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 3: I mean, the most famous one I think since then

443
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: is Aunt viv on The Fresh Prince of bel Air,

444
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 3: when Janet Hubert Whitten got replaced by Daphne Maxwell Reid,

445
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 3: and I think it was because she and Will Smith.

446
00:23:58,880 --> 00:23:59,640
Speaker 2: Did not get along.

447
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 3: And then with Roseanne, Yes, Roseanne, they replaced one Becky

448
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 3: with another because Lacy Gorrenson, I think, wanted to go

449
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,239
Speaker 3: off to college, and so Sarah Chalk came in and

450
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 3: after a certain point they were rotating back and forth.

451
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 3: After Gorenson started acting again. And then on the revival,

452
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 3: Gorrenson's playing Becky, but Sarah Chalk played another part.

453
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: Right, and they were very witty about it. Back in

454
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: the nineties, we're talking about the original run of Roseanne.

455
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: There was even a scene I think where they're watching

456
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 1: Bewitched and they're commenting on the two different Darrens instead

457
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: of making an inside joke, a self referential joke.

458
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 4: I cannot believe that they replaced that Darren.

459
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: Well, I like the second Darren much better.

460
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 1: There is something to learn from the case of the

461
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: two Darren's right about how a show really can be

462
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: affected the whole show.

463
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, and obviously I understand no one wanted to stop

464
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: the money train, but it did fundamentally transform once they

465
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 3: had a lesser Darren come in and they had to

466
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 3: figure things out from there.

467
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 5: Oh.

468
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: By the way, I remember a Curby Your Enthusiasm episode

469
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: where they're talking about the two Darrens, and either Larry

470
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: or maybe Jerry Seinfeld was actually guesting on it said,

471
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: no one wants to be a second Darren.

472
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 3: I'd forgotten you mentioned that untill now, isn't it When

473
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 3: Larry winds up having to replace Jason Alexander as George

474
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 3: when they're making the pilot and Bewitched.

475
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: Nobody liked that second Darren. I didn't care for the

476
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: second d but you bought it.

477
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: But it's true.

478
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel a little bit badly for the

479
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 1: dearly departed, Dick Sergeant, that he's become what's the word

480
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: that he's defined that now that he's that, he's yeah,

481
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: anyway that he represents that.

482
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: Look, being the second Darren was very lucrative for Dick's sergeant.

483
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 3: You know, I'm sure he would rather be that than

484
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 3: to have not had a primetime TV job for those

485
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: final seasons of a Witch.

486
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great point. That's a great point. Being

487
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 1: a second Darren is, yeah, is a lot better than

488
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: not being a Darren at all. There, thank you exactly.

489
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 1: Can you please embroider that on a pillow for me.

490
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 2: I'll work on it.

491
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: For all their differences, Dick York and Dick Sargeant had

492
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: something in common beyond that role they played on TV.

493
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: They both led exemplary post Darren lives. In nineteen ninety one,

494
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: Dick Sargeant, at age sixty one, came out until his

495
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: death a year later, he advocated for gay rights, with

496
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: his friend and TV wife, the wonderful Elizabeth Montgomery right

497
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: by his side. Dick Yorke couldn't find much acting work

498
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: after Bewitched and ended up poor, living off of his

499
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: pension check. All the more remarkable then that He and

500
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: his wife Joan dedicated their remaining years to helping the

501
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: homeless by collecting and handing out food, clothes, and bedding.

502
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: Dick York died on February twentieth, nineteen ninety two. Less

503
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: than two years later, Dick Sargent died on July eighth,

504
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. Two. Darren's both pretty good eggs. All right, Allan,

505
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: Now we're transitioning to a whole other class of sitcom death,

506
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 1: the death of a character as part of the plot,

507
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: especially jarring when that character is the title character.

508
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 3: Oh rip, Valerie suggest.

509
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 4: So.

510
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 3: Valerie Harper, beloved star, co star of The Mary Tyler

511
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 3: Moore Show, star of Rhoda just beloved TV icon In

512
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 3: the mid to late eighties, she had a comeback a

513
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: new family sitcom called Valerie. She played the mom to

514
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: three kids, one of them played by Jason Bateman. The

515
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 3: husband was an airline pilot, so he wasn't around very much,

516
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: and it was just here's you know, Valerie Harper in

517
00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: the next phase of her career.

518
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: Sit The show ran two seasons.

519
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: At the end of the second season, Valerie Harper said, Hey,

520
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 3: I would like more money. I'm not being paid enough.

521
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 3: My name is in the title. I feel I should

522
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: be compensated more, and instead the studio said, no, we

523
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: can do the show without you. The audience seems to

524
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: like the kids better anyway, and so rather than pay

525
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: her what she wanted, they wrote her out of the show.

526
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 3: They killed off the character. They brought in Sandy Duncan

527
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: as her husband's sister, I think to move in as

528
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: sort of the surrogate mom of the kids. The dad

529
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 3: was around slightly more, and for a season or two

530
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 3: they changed the title to Valerie's Family, and then eventually

531
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 3: with a subtitle, yes, Valerie's Family colon the Hogan's.

532
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: Sort of like Twelfth Night, What you Will or Rambo

533
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: First Blood Part two.

534
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 3: Yes, And then within a year or so it just

535
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: became the Hogan Family and references to their you know,

536
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: late great mother went the way of Chuck Cunningham.

537
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: They completely disappeared. So it was the Hogan Family, Nay,

538
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: Valerie's Family, the Hogan's Nay Gary correct a lot of

539
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: as they say, iterations, why is this so funny?

540
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: It's just again, because you can do death on certain sitcoms.

541
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: Certain shows are equipped for it because they have kind

542
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 3: of a level of gravitas, or because they do the

543
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: death in such a ridiculous way, like when Chuckles the

544
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: clown dies on the Mary Tyler Moore Show. Either way,

545
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: you can sort of work death into a sitcom field.

546
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: But this was a very light and silly and superficial

547
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: sitcom about family life. And you know, am I going

548
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: to get my driver's light sinse or not? Am I

549
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: going to have a date to the dance? And suddenly

550
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 3: mom is dead because the actress had a salary dispute,

551
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 3: And it's injecting this really somber tone into the show,

552
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: which the show almost immediately wants to make you forget

553
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: about because it's this unpleasant thing they've done where they have.

554
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: To get rid of Valerie Harper because she was too expensive.

555
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 1: And you make a good point that the form, the

556
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: sitcom form, can sustain death. I mean all in the family. Yes,

557
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: death is incredibly moving. No.

558
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's just puttering around the bar and in the

559
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: house and you don't know what's going on, and then

560
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: you realize at the end, no, Edith's gone. It's amazing

561
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: the right show can pull it off. Cheers Frasier. Certain

562
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: sitcoms are built for it. This one really wasn't and

563
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: wasn't even interested in exploring it.

564
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: So Sandy Duncan comes on in the third season. In

565
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: the first episode of that season, they just make very

566
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: passing reference to the death of Valerie in a car crash.

567
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: Yes, Sandy Duncan has moved in the Dad is getting

568
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 3: ready to go back to, you know, flying airlines again,

569
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 3: and you know, life goes on.

570
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: Old Dad spent six months since mom died, and I

571
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: think it's time you got back in the air.

572
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 2: Besides, we'll be fine. Yeah, you've got it Sandy on, So.

573
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: They don't spend a lot of time warning her, and

574
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: the father, who was always sort of a secondary character,

575
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: is going back in the sky.

576
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: Michael, you'll be back in a week.

577
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: It's the first time I've left the boys since full

578
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: automobile accident.

579
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 4: I know.

580
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 7: You've done a terrific job. I just think it's time

581
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 7: for everyone to get.

582
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: On with their lives. I have to say I love

583
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: Towards the end of the episode, Sandy Duncan, who is fabulous.

584
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: She acknowledges Valerie Harper's character, but barely. I mean, let's

585
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: say it's not exactly moving.

586
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: I didn't make the.

587
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 7: Decision to move here overnight.

588
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 2: I thought long and hard about it.

589
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 7: For a lot of reasons. My feelings for your father

590
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 7: and your mother and you kids obligatory.

591
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: But then that same season, only two episodes later, the

592
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: family is rummaging through the attic when something super unsitcommy happens.

593
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: Lamp to work.

594
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 2: Mister wizard couldn't get that lamp to work? Come, let's go.

595
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: Oh no, the lamp is sparking, And even that music

596
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: is suddenly not sitcomy, right, I.

597
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: Think it's meant to be dramatic.

598
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: Right, it's got a little Laura More in there. They

599
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: all head downstairs until the smell of smoke wakes and

600
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: Sandy up and now they're actually really having to act. Yes,

601
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: And now they're safely down on the front lawn as

602
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: their house burns to the ground. This is very this

603
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: is us. After the commercial break, we're back in sitcom land.

604
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 7: How is you Dad?

605
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's kind of a weird mashup, right,

606
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: especially when you consider that they've blown off Valeries to

607
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: death in the season premiere, right.

608
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: And it's and they're not even doing it in the episode.

609
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: Sort of in the aftermath of her death, they decid,

610
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: all right, well we're going to do We're going to

611
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 3: come back at the start of the season. She's been

612
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 3: dead six months, so we get to skip past the

613
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 3: grief because grief is messy and awkward and not really.

614
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: What we do. And then a couple of episodes.

615
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: Later, oh, we'll burn down the attic, which will let

616
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 3: us redesign the sets but also give you know, Jason

617
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: Bateman a chance to play some grief.

618
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: Now, it may interest you to know that I have

619
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: talked to both Jason Bateman and Sandy Duncan separately about

620
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: the Valerie situation, and they have the same recollection and

621
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: it's the wrong recollection about how Valerie died. Really, they

622
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: her burned her dead in the house, and then they

623
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: shot the episode where we discover her and that was

624
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: odd for half hour sitcomb. But wait then she died

625
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 1: in a house fire. Yeah, and I'll fall apart crying.

626
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: And it was a very special two part or moth.

627
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 7: I was playing the aunt and I moved in to

628
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 7: take care of the kids because I love sitcom and

629
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 7: they're so funny. She burned down in a house, so

630
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 7: it was a fire that ended that contract.

631
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: They both think that she got burned in a big

632
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: old house fire. Oh my god, Sandy was shocked when

633
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: I said no, she had supposedly died in a car wreck.

634
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: Here's the interesting thing. You both remember the original title

635
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: character of the star Valerie having died in a house fire. Yeah,

636
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: all right now, I don't want to burst your bubble here,

637
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: but she actually died in a car crash. I don't

638
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: know if she run.

639
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 7: Are you serious?

640
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: Yep?

641
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 7: That is you just dig to the truth, don't you.

642
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 7: I had no idea, I swear. Do you think actors

643
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 7: have just learned so many lines that they forget what

644
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 7: they do? Are we just not too bright?

645
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 1: I don't know. So, Sandy, here's my question. To get

646
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: Valerie off the show? Did they have to have her

647
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: character die? Well?

648
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 7: I think because they had established this happy home life

649
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 7: and happy marriage, there wasn't much of another way to

650
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 7: exit her, do you know what I mean? They wouldn't

651
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 7: have gotten a divorce, They didn't want her lying in

652
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 7: a hospital with some incurable disease. So I think it

653
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 7: was swift and to the point and got over it

654
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 7: and went on.

655
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: They had to kill her instantly instantly. It does seem

656
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: like there's a blurrier line between comedies and traumas now

657
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: so that now it's not as jarring or it can

658
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: be treated in a more natural way. And also because

659
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: Valerie's family, I mean, you know, by the way, when

660
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: you watch about it, I mean it's just a terrible show.

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00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 3: Sure, but you know, Jason Bateman was adorable and had

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00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 3: great comic dimings, so that gets you eight.

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00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: Seasons, right. And Sandy Duncan, I mean was terrific coming

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00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: in yep. I mean she did what she needed to do.

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00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, people love Sandy Duncan. I think, you know, if.

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00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 3: You were predisposed to watch that show because it was

667
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 3: the Valerie Harper Show and they were now killing off

668
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 3: Valerie Harper, you have to bring in someone who's supremely

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00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 3: likable to get away with it, and Sandy Duncan definitely

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00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: fits that.

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00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 2: Bill.

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00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: I'd like to end this episode talking once again about

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00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: my own TV death on Law and Order. I just

674
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: want to point out that I almost actually died in

675
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: that role, really not because of the car crash, but

676
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: because I was playing a chain smoking gossip columnist and

677
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 1: because I'm a method actor, I prepared for the role

678
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: by smoking lots of filterless cigarettes, and I mean lots,

679
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: mind you, I'd smoked a couple of cigarettes in my

680
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: life and I was a teenager, and that's it. So

681
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: right before one of my scenes, I began throwing up,

682
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: like truly projectile vomiting, and I just want to thank

683
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: all these years later, I want to thank the crew

684
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: of Law and Order Criminal Intent because as I was hurling,

685
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, all these people want to start laughing

686
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: right now, and they're not laughing, and I wanted to

687
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: just be able to say, like, it's okay, you can laugh,

688
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: because this is a ridiculous situation.

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00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 2: So here's my question.

690
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 3: If you know, god forbid you had actually fallen to

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00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: your death because of the reaction for the cigarettes, who

692
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: would you have wanted to play that role in your stead?

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00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 5: Oh?

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00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: My god, Well, Sandy Duncan.

695
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 2: Of course, come on, I mean, come on.

696
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: I love Peter Pan, I love Wheat thins, I love

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00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: I love Sandy Dunk.

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00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: I love her on Scooby Doo, I love her.

699
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: On Scooby Do. So I definitely would have wanted the

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00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: Sandy Duncan playing me.

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00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 3: No, that's an excellent choice.

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00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,760
Speaker 1: Alan Steppenwall, thank you so much.

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00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: Moh my absolute pleasure.

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00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: In Heaven. Next time on Mobituaries, the Trailblazers whose paths

705
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: were somehow erased, the forgotten forerunners.

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00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,919
Speaker 3: She's really the Rosa Parks of New York, and most

707
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: New Yorkers, most Americans, have no idea.

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00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: How much does this historical amnesia bother you? I mean,

709
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: it's infuriating, It's absolutely infuriating. I certainly hope you enjoyed

710
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: this mobit. Be sure to rate and review our podcast.

711
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: You can also follow Mobituaries on Facebook and Instagram, and

712
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: you can follow me on Twitter at morocca. You can

713
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: subscribe to Mobituaries wherever you get your podcasts. For more

714
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: great content and to watch my fiery death on Law

715
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: and Order Criminal Intent, please go to mobituaries dot com.

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00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: This episode of Mobituaries was produced by Kate mccauliffe. Our

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00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: team of producers also includes Gideon Evans, Megan Marcus, Megan Dietrie,

718
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: and me Moroka. It was engineered by David Herman, indispensable

719
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: support from Genius Stenesky, Kira Wardlow, Richard rher and special

720
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: thanks to Alan Seppenwall and Dan Dezoula. Our theme music

721
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: was written by Daniel Hart and as always on dying

722
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: thanks to Rand Morrison and John carp without whom Mobituaries

723
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: couldn't live. Hi, It's mo. If you're enjoying Mobituaries the podcast,

724
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,840
Speaker 1: may I invite you to check out Mobituaries the book.

725
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: It's chock full of stories not in the podcast. Celebrities

726
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: who put their butts on the line, sports teams that

727
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: threw in the towel for good, forgotten fashions, defunct diagnoses,

728
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: presidential candidacies that cratered whole countries that went caput. And dragons, Yes, dragons,

729
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: you see. People used to believe the dragons were real

730
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 1: until just get the book. You can order Mobituaries the

731
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: Book from any online bookseller, or stop by your local

732
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 1: bookstore and look for me when I come to your city.

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00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: Tour information and lots more at mobituaries dot com