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Speaker 1: If you let this fear sort of like spin out

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Speaker 1: of control and let them become these like larger than

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Speaker 1: life figures in your mind, then you do feel disempowered

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Speaker 1: to do anything about it. Like if these are these

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Speaker 1: aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just some fucking guy,

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Speaker 1: and some guy can be defeated.

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Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridgid Todd, and this

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Speaker 2: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Molly. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for being here, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me, Bridgid.

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Speaker 2: It's been pretty tough to know just how to respond

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Speaker 2: in this moment. I've been personally spending a ton of

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Speaker 2: my time really trying to zero in on what it

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Speaker 2: is I want to be doing and why and how

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Speaker 2: I can use my specific skills to create the change

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Speaker 2: I want to see in the world. It's the kind

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Speaker 2: of thing that Molly Conger has built an entire career of.

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Speaker 2: She's a researcher and journal who focuses on the far right,

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Speaker 2: so she's been pretty busy lately. Mollie's hit new podcast

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Speaker 2: is called Weird Little Guys. And on it she explores

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Speaker 2: who she calls quote the worst people you've never heard of,

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Speaker 2: and how the hate mongers standing in the way of

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Speaker 2: progress and equality are well, in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 2: just weird little guys. But before all this, Molly was

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Speaker 2: working in an office job at an early childhood ed tech company,

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Speaker 2: and then the Unite the Right rally that left thirty

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Speaker 2: two year old Heather Higher dead happened in her town.

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Speaker 1: I've lost my job unexpectedly in the summer of twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: It was, you know, it's a huge bummer. I'd been

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Speaker 1: working there for a long time. It was my first,

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Speaker 1: like big girl job, and I guess maybe my last

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Speaker 1: one because I have another job since. And so I

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Speaker 1: was just adrift, right, I was just at home trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what to do next when Unite the

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Speaker 1: Right happened here in Charlottesville. And I was not someone

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Speaker 1: who was politically engaged at that time. It was not

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Speaker 1: I didn't know anything about that world, and I was

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Speaker 1: bewildered by what happened here, like why did Nazis come

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Speaker 1: to where I live and kill a woman who was,

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Speaker 1: you know, around my age. Right, This Streles' is not

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Speaker 1: a big towns to college towns, but fifty thousand people.

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Speaker 1: It just didn't seem like something that could happen here.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't. I just didn't understand, and I had

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Speaker 1: the time to waste trying to understand.

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Speaker 2: And I never stopped when this was happening where you like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I am carving out a lane of work for myself.

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Speaker 1: No, And I didn't ever intend for it to become

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Speaker 1: a career or you know, become a subject matter expert

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Speaker 1: in anything. I just I guess I don't have asked anything.

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Speaker 1: My whole asked it.

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Speaker 2: I know your work has been instrumental and identifying extremists

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Speaker 2: to sometimes have committed actual crimes in the name of

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Speaker 2: their ideologies. How did this come to be something you

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Speaker 2: realized that you had a knack for.

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Speaker 1: I've talked about this, I think, you know, like I

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Speaker 1: did a workshop last year in a local bookstore about, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, internet safety and sort of reverse engineering how

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Speaker 1: to keep yourself safe by talking about the ways that

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Speaker 1: I make other people less safe online, you know, less

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Speaker 1: safe being you know, a hater in secret. And I

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Speaker 1: think I think all women have this ability. It is

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Speaker 1: a laden ability that all women of our generation have

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Speaker 1: right that, Like you've stayed up all night trying to

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Speaker 1: find your ex's pictures on social media? Like what is

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Speaker 1: what are they up to? Did they get married? You know,

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Speaker 1: we all have that skill set, and I think in

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Speaker 1: another universe, I'm just a fucking menace on nextdoor. But

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Speaker 1: I found a way to channel that like aggressive nosiness

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Speaker 1: into something that's good for society.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I love that being your superpower. I

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Speaker 2: have said that on the show. Nobody is like smarter

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Speaker 2: than like a group of girls with Instagram. They will

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Speaker 2: find anything anyone you cannot hide from them.

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Speaker 1: Like a scorned woman is more powerful than the FBI.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely correct. By now, I'm sure you've seen that horrifying video,

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Speaker 2: a woman later identified as doctor Teresa Bornpole is forcibly

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Speaker 2: dragged out of a public town hall meeting and zip

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Speaker 2: Tide for speaking up. There was a time where town

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Speaker 2: hall meetings were just the boring process driven Greece that

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Speaker 2: kept the wheels of local government turning, not necessarily the

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Speaker 2: hot beds of discontent we know them ass today. But

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Speaker 2: Molly was someone who identified that town hall meetings were

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Speaker 2: going to play an important role early on in twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 2: she started live tweeting government meetings in Charlottesville after the

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Speaker 2: deadly Unite the Right rally. You know something else that

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Speaker 2: I really have to lift up about your work is

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Speaker 2: that I feel like you're one of the early people

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Speaker 2: who recognized the power of things like public town halls,

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Speaker 2: public meetings, especially happening in Charlottesville. Today, we know that like,

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Speaker 2: those are big flash points where you know, you might

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Speaker 2: get dragged out by hired goons for saying the wrong thing.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like there was a time where you

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Speaker 2: thought of public town halls or town meetings as the

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Speaker 2: like boring things that they were, not the flashpoints that

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Speaker 2: they are today. What was it about those spaces that

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Speaker 2: made you feel like I need to start tracking what's

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Speaker 2: happening in these spaces.

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Speaker 1: They should be boring. First of all, they should be boring,

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Speaker 1: but no, so that when my sort of early quest

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Speaker 1: for personal understanding, one of the first places I went

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Speaker 1: was I went to the first city council meeting that

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Speaker 1: happened after Unite the Right. So it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: the week after this happened here, I didn't know where

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Speaker 1: to start looking for answers, So I went to city

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Speaker 1: Hall and it was this very explosive meeting because there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of anger here. There's a lot of hurt.

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Speaker 1: And over time those meetings, you know, fewer and fewer

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Speaker 1: people showed up over time. I think Charles Fillson more

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Speaker 1: engaged locality than most and we have remade that way

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Speaker 1: over the years. But you know, over the over the months,

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Speaker 1: people stopped showing up. But I was interested. I was

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Speaker 1: interested in the way these decisions are getting made. And

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Speaker 1: I guess once I committed to that, I couldn't stop.

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't something I started doing for anyone else, right,

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Speaker 1: I live have been. I fell off in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of months because I'm busy with the show. But

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Speaker 1: I spent seven years live tweeting city council meetings. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something I was doing for people, because like arguably,

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Speaker 1: there should be no audience for that. It's not interesting.

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Speaker 1: But I learned a lot about about local government, about

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Speaker 1: the kinds of people who show up to make themselves heard.

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Speaker 1: You know, there are I don't know, I think because

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Speaker 1: it is boring because it is time consuming, because it

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Speaker 1: is hard to do, you know, six o'clock on a

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Speaker 1: weekday evening, you have other stuff to do, you're still

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Speaker 1: at work, or you're making dinner for your family. The

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Speaker 1: kinds of people who show up are often people who

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Speaker 1: have not great motivations, and so we shouldn't seed that

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Speaker 1: ground to that one weird lady who wants to ban

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Speaker 1: all the books at the library.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel like that's a big part of how

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Speaker 2: we got to where we are now? Sort of? You know,

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Speaker 2: I understand the temptation of focusing on president national politics

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Speaker 2: what's happening federally, But while we were doing that and

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Speaker 2: sort of not paying attention to the boring city council

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Speaker 2: meeting or whatever, the lady who wants to ban all

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Speaker 2: the books in the library really amassed a lot of

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Speaker 2: power and now has goons, right.

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Speaker 1: Because that's been an explicit organizing strategy of like right

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Speaker 1: wing interest groups for a long time, is running city

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Speaker 1: council candidates, running school board candidates. They've been filling those

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Speaker 1: rooms with their goons for a long time, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it varies locality to locality. I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: there are no people pushing back against that. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of good people pushing back against that. But

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Speaker 1: I think on average, we have seeded that ground to

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Speaker 1: people who you know, you know at the Federalist Society

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Speaker 1: or whatever, who understand that they can build power locally.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, are you from Charlottesville, Like originally I.

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Speaker 1: Moved here in two thousand and seven to go to Uba,

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Speaker 1: and so I never left.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm from Virginia. I grew up in Richmond. And

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Speaker 2: you mentioned how Charlottesville people there are like perhaps a

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Speaker 2: little more engaged civically than your average place. I totally agree,

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Speaker 2: And I think that Charlottesville. I love Charlottesville. I grew

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Speaker 2: up going there, Like I had a lot of friends

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Speaker 2: that went to UVA. Like that was like the good

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Speaker 2: when I was in high school. That was like the

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Speaker 2: good college that you hope that you got into.

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Speaker 1: Public.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, in Virginia you might know this. They just

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Speaker 2: call it the university. They don't even call it the

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Speaker 2: University of Virginia. Like that's how ubiquitous it is. And

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Speaker 2: I do think like in a place like Charlottesville, where

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Speaker 2: folks are pretty like plugged in, it's like a unique place.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that that that that strategy of quietly

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Speaker 2: taking things over, does that work in a place like

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Speaker 2: Charlottesville where folks are pretty plugged in.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work here. It doesn't work here Antonin Scalia's

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Speaker 1: granddaughter did not successfully run for school board here. She

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Speaker 1: tried and it didn't work. So I think, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: have to be in that space and know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Run your own people, because I think, especially now that

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Speaker 1: I guess the law doesn't matter at all at the

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Speaker 1: federal level, that our local government is going to be

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Speaker 1: our last line of defense. That when you know these

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Speaker 1: terrible directives come down from the federal government, or you know,

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Speaker 1: in Virginia we have a terrible governor who's going to

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Speaker 1: cooperate government, your local government is your last line of defense. Like, like,

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Speaker 1: are the regional jail board here makes decisions about whether

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Speaker 1: or not the jail cooperates with ice, right, Like these

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Speaker 1: local decisions have a very real impact on people's state

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Speaker 1: to day lives.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I personally,

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Speaker 2: Bridget am going through a little bit of a I

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Speaker 2: guess you could call out a tails a despair tailspin.

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Speaker 2: Everything going on reasonable, Yeah, And I think I constantly

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Speaker 2: finding myself kind of oscillating between just being like I

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Speaker 2: need to with my job and dedicate myself to the

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Speaker 2: calls full time. I don't have kids, my parents are

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Speaker 2: dead like this like this is it is time to

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Speaker 2: like lock the fuck in and being like I need

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Speaker 2: to check the fuck out, I need to like disengage.

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Speaker 2: And it almost and I bet a lot of people

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Speaker 2: may be your feeling that way, and it almost sounds

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Speaker 2: like what you're saying is that the antidote to the

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Speaker 2: feeling right now of feeling like I can't do anything,

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Speaker 2: I can't change anything is being like it checked in,

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Speaker 2: engaged and formed, like even at the hyper local level,

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Speaker 2: because that's where you actually could build up the build

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Speaker 2: up the qualities that like make that strategy of taking

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Speaker 2: over of extremists taking over your local government less likely.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, And it doesn't have to you know, this push

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Speaker 1: and pull of like I can't do anything or I

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Speaker 1: have to do everything is overwhelming. But you don't have

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Speaker 1: to do something big. You don't have to do something big.

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Speaker 1: Just join a community group and be part of something

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Speaker 1: that could be big. But it doesn't have to be you, right,

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Speaker 1: and you don't have to have you know, in character syndrome.

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Speaker 1: But stopping fascism, yeah, I don't think it.

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Speaker 2: I don't think me personally nobody's gonna cut it.

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Speaker 1: But there's this this feeling like if I don't do

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Speaker 1: something enormous, if I don't put my whole life into this,

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Speaker 1: then I am not contributing. And that's not true. I

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Speaker 1: think you go to a school board meeting, talk to

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Speaker 1: your teachers' union.

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Speaker 2: I really like that, and I think, especially right now,

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Speaker 2: it is I mean, I feel overwhelmed. I think everybody's

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Speaker 2: feeling overwhelmed. The idea that like, you don't have to

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Speaker 2: do it all. You certainly don't have to do it alone.

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Speaker 2: If you, you know, thought somehow that you were gonna

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Speaker 2: be the main character of stopping fascism, like disavow yourself

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Speaker 2: with that notion. And it actually is like helpful to

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Speaker 2: feel that way, to think of it that way, right that.

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Speaker 1: Like I don't know, your own insignificance can be a

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Speaker 1: comfort to you that you are just one person in

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Speaker 1: this this larger operation of people coming together and doing

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Speaker 1: a little bit at a time. That's more manageable.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, like my own show has sort

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Speaker 2: of been off the air for a while, like in

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Speaker 2: part because of personal reasons and family reasons, but also

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Speaker 2: part of it is just like straight up not really

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Speaker 2: knowing how to show up in this moment. Like I

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Speaker 2: have sort of struggled with my own kind of north

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Speaker 2: Star because I want to provide to my listeners, like

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Speaker 2: content that is valuable, that is useful, that educates them,

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Speaker 2: that helps them understand what's happening, and how to get

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Speaker 2: plugged in. But I don't want to be alarmist. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to be you know, doom and gloom all

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Speaker 2: the time. But what the moment that we're in right

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Speaker 2: now is genuinely alarming, right, And so like part of

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Speaker 2: me is like, well, if I don't want to be alarmist,

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Speaker 2: I guess I can't say anything because like, we're in

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Speaker 2: an alarming moment. Is is this something that you have

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Speaker 2: dealt with, struggled with and have you managed to find

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Speaker 2: a balance there?

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Speaker 1: Gosh, So the last couple of weeks, actually, I've been

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Speaker 1: really grappling with that exact thought. Right. So when the

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Speaker 1: show launched, in the first few months of episodes, I'm

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Speaker 1: telling these stories about history, right, I'm looking at sort

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Speaker 1: of a specific incident or individual from the past, you know,

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Speaker 1: guys from the eighties, crimes from the seventies, like crimes

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Speaker 1: that are sort of discreete package stories of like look

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Speaker 1: at this, Look at this little fucking guy, look at this,

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Speaker 1: Look at fucking weird Nazi who had child porn on

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Speaker 1: his computer. Right, it's just these like little vignettes of

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Speaker 1: creepy little Nazis. But the last couple of weeks the

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Speaker 1: episodes have really focused on tying together, like here's this

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Speaker 1: thing that happened in the past, and here is its

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Speaker 1: direct correlation that is ruining your life now. And it's

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Speaker 1: I feel like there's a responsibility that I have to

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Speaker 1: tie these things together. You know, I'm not just talking

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Speaker 1: about you know, the American white supremacist movement as this

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Speaker 1: interesting anecdote of history. It is something that has led

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Speaker 1: us to this moment. So tying like not just like

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Speaker 1: this is an echo of this, This is a direct

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Speaker 1: consequence of this particular man's actions and words. And here's

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Speaker 1: the clear through line that got us to today. It's us,

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Speaker 1: It's not Stow.

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Speaker 4: I wanted to write, let's take a quick break.

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Speaker 3: At our back.

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Speaker 2: On her podcast Weird Little Guys, Mollie isn't just rehashing

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Speaker 2: old stories of extremists from the past. She's connecting how

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Speaker 2: these stories led to our current moment. For instance, when

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Speaker 2: Don Logan, Scottsdale, Arizona's former diversity director, opened an office

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Speaker 2: of diversity back in nineteen ninety eight, it was bombed.

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Speaker 2: Six years later, Don Logan almost died, but the office

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Speaker 2: stayed open. But the story didn't in there because even

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Speaker 2: after surviving a dangerous bombing decades earlier, just recently the

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Speaker 2: city government voted to shut the diversity offices doors. Well,

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Speaker 2: in one of your episodes, you're talking about the diversity

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Speaker 2: office in Arizona that was like bomb in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and four, and you know the person who opened it

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Speaker 2: survived that bombing only for earlier this year, a few

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Speaker 2: weeks ago, that office to close when you know they

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Speaker 2: voted to, as the Phoenix New Times put it, for

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Speaker 2: no apparent reason or justification doing so other than for

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Speaker 2: the council to align itself with Donald Trump's baseless culture

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Speaker 2: war crusade against diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives. Like that

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Speaker 2: seems exactly like I read this piece and it broke

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Speaker 2: my heart. The person who was like, yes, I had

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Speaker 2: opened the package that had a pipe bomb in it,

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Speaker 2: a little bit differently, I would be dead today and

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Speaker 2: now this office is shuddering in some ways. It does

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Speaker 2: kind of feel like when you are threading that needle

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Speaker 2: of these stories, that like we're moving in the wrong direction.

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Speaker 2: And I guess I wonder, like, how do you, as

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Speaker 2: somebody who tells these stories for a living and threads

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Speaker 2: that needle for a living, how do you deal with that,

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Speaker 2: this feeling that like we are going in the wrong direction,

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Speaker 2: like we simply are not moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that story, in particular, I think really it instilled

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Speaker 1: in me this idea that I have a responsibility to

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Speaker 1: be clear that these stories aren't over right, Like I

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Speaker 1: spent I spent two full months chronicling the life of

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Speaker 1: Dennis Mahon, that klansman who built that bomb in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four, Like I followed him for decades. I

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Speaker 1: dug through archives and court records and transcripts and old

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Speaker 1: clanned newsletters and watched videos of sermons given at the

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Speaker 1: Arian Nation's compound. And you know, I spent months writing

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Speaker 1: this story, and I thought, Okay, it's over. He's in prison,

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Speaker 1: his trial was very interesting, he was convicted, and that

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Speaker 1: story is over. And then not a month after I

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Speaker 1: finished writing it, the city council shut down the office

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Speaker 1: that refused to shudder because of a bombing, right like

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Speaker 1: he sent them a bomb. Don Logan almost died, and

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Speaker 1: the city said, No, diversity is important to us. Diversity

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Speaker 1: is important to us. Klansmen don't get to decide that

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Speaker 1: it's not. And then twenty one years later, some Republican

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Speaker 1: mayor with too much botox decided that no, actually, diversity

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Speaker 1: sucks and we hate it, and so we are moving

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Speaker 1: in the wrong direction.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I was speaking to an undergraduate class at EVA the

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Speaker 1: other day about the show. A professor invited me to

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Speaker 1: talk to the students about the show, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of their questions for me were like, well, what do

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Speaker 1: we do? What do we do? What does the future

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Speaker 1: look like? And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a political organizer, I'm not a prognosticator. I

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Speaker 1: don't I'm just trying to tell a story and hopefully

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Speaker 1: it can inform the organizing work of people who are

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Speaker 1: good at that kind of thing. But all I have

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Speaker 1: are these old clan newsletters.

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Speaker 2: Well this might sound wild, but like, stay with me here.

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Speaker 2: So I love Tony Morrison, I love Angela Davis, and

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Speaker 2: they were close friends. And Tony Morrison was working as

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Speaker 2: an editor at Random House, right, and she was very

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Speaker 2: clear that like her during the you know, black political

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Speaker 2: movement of the sixties and seventies. She was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: my role is like being an editor writing blah blah blah.

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Speaker 2: And Angela Davis, who of course was like this amazing organizer,

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Speaker 2: an activist and bet arrested and like, you know, was

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Speaker 2: really in the streets and in the struggle. Tony Morrison said,

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Speaker 2: you need to write an autobiography, a memoir. You need

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Speaker 2: to write the story of your struggle in the streets

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Speaker 2: so people can read it. And Angela Davis was like, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm too young. I don't I'm too young for a memoir.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I'll do it in ten years. And she said

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Speaker 2: that Tony Morrison was the kind of person who had

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Speaker 2: a way of telling people to do things where they

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Speaker 2: understood they really ought to do it. And she wrote

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Speaker 2: that memoir and you know it, it went on to

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Speaker 2: inform an entire generation of political organizing and social movement

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Speaker 2: and theory and practice. And Tony Morrison was very clear

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Speaker 2: that she wasn't going to be in the streets, but

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Speaker 2: her gifts. The thing that she was good at was

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Speaker 2: editing and getting people, like identifying the person whose story

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Speaker 2: needed to be told and making for that story got

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Speaker 2: out into the world. And I really see that as

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Speaker 2: like a similar thing, right of Like you know, you

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Speaker 2: were saying, like I'm out an organizer. I can't tell

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Speaker 2: people like how you push back, but you know where

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Speaker 2: your gifts lie, right, Like you know what you're good at.

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Speaker 2: You're good at pouring over research archival. I mean, part

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Speaker 2: of me almost wonders if if the thing that we

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Speaker 2: should all be thinking about is like, what is the

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Speaker 2: skill that we're good at that they can't take away

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Speaker 2: from us? And how can I lean into that in

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Speaker 2: this moment? And yours is clearly like going over the

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Speaker 2: meticulous you know, archives and telling a story, making a story.

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Speaker 1: Out of it, right, and like giving people sort of

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Speaker 1: the language to assist them in understanding the moments such

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Speaker 1: that they may take the action that they're good at. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, people are like, oh, these you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a fascist government, it's the you know, we're experiencing fascism,

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Speaker 1: and then there's this pushback of well, you can't just

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Speaker 1: that's such a big word. You can't say that, but

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Speaker 1: if I can give you the information that you need

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Speaker 1: to say. No, I know where this idea came from.

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Speaker 1: I know whose mouth those words came out of last

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Speaker 1: time they were spoken. You know that this isn't just

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Speaker 1: normal Republican politics.

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Speaker 4: This is.

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Speaker 1: This is something you come from an old clan newsletter.

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Speaker 2: How much of your work is like digging into old

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Speaker 2: clan newsletters or like looking through speeches that are archives

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Speaker 2: and things like that, things that like maybe read as boring,

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Speaker 2: but help us understand this.

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Speaker 1: It's not boring to me. It's not boring. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I guess that's you know, we all have our special interest.

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Speaker 1: This is the research is my favorite part. I love it.

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Speaker 1: Like I spent most of last week trying to translate

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Speaker 1: a blurry PDF of a thesis that was written in

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Speaker 1: the nineties in Afrikaans, like and ocr does not like

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Speaker 1: the AI does not want to read this to me,

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Speaker 1: it is I'm like line by line because I know

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Speaker 1: there's golden there and I'm gonna get it.

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Speaker 2: You know something that I appreciate about Weird Little Guys

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Speaker 2: is that is the part of the show that's like

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Speaker 2: that you've never heard of, Like that part I think

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Speaker 2: is very important. You know, there are so many of

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Speaker 2: these names that folks might know, like Richard Spencer, who

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Speaker 2: I always you know, I have. I had to give

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Speaker 2: him a special shoutout because he was punched in my

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Speaker 2: hometown of DC. And it's like a claim to fame

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Speaker 2: that I love to mention. But you're talking about people

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Speaker 2: that like extremists that people might not know right or

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Speaker 2: might not have heard of. And you know, I live

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Speaker 2: in d c. Into. Like you've talked about Aaron Hoffman,

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Speaker 2: who was a police officer in nearby Prince George County,

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Speaker 2: who you identified as a Proud Boys member, you know,

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Speaker 2: who was advocating for violence against as a Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: chief justice. And I guess I wonder, like, why do

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Speaker 2: you think it's so important that people don't just know

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Speaker 2: the sort of like big name extremists that get fancy

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Speaker 2: write ups in the Times or whatever about their haircut,

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Speaker 2: but also the people in your hometown, on your police force,

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Speaker 2: on your school board.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the idea. You know, the name of

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Speaker 1: the show is Sophie's actually Sophie's brainchild. Weird little guys, right,

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Speaker 1: It's like it's not just the splashy big names that

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Speaker 1: you've heard of. It's there's the whole networks of these.

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Speaker 1: It's like you pick up a rock and there's all

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Speaker 1: these roly pollies under there, right, there's never just one

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Speaker 1: bug under that rock. And they're just these terrible little losers. Right,

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Speaker 1: They're not these larger than life incomprehensible figures, these you know,

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Speaker 1: great men of history quote unquote, right, it's it's just

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00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 1: like a bunch of fucking losers who are mean to

432
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 1: their wives.

433
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was once behind the bastards and I

434
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: was talking to Robert about this and I forget, I

435
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: forget who we were talking about. But he had a

436
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 2: very whoever it was, had like a very messy interpersonal

437
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 2: life and that was his undoing. And I was like, dang,

438
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: imagine being like this like high up figure and extremist

439
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: movement and you're undoing is like your interpersonal messiness with

440
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 2: your girlfriend. And he was like, bitch, it's all of

441
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: them like that.

442
00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: It's like yes, Like there's there's a a white nationalist

443
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 1: group that does not exist anymore because it fell apart

444
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:08,919
Speaker 1: after the leader caught his best friends slash father in

445
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: law sleeping with his they were God, okay, so Matt

446
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 1: heinbuch It's married to brook and Brooks stepfather Matt Parrott

447
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: was having an affair with Oh god, oh the diagram

448
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: is escaping me.

449
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 2: You need like the like stringboard, like there is no

450
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 2: Pepe Sylvia, like no, like we call it.

451
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 1: We call the Night of the Wrong Wives, right, because

452
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: this Nazi group collapsed because they were like they were

453
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: fucking each other's wives.

454
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, people with the moral high ground, for sure, these

455
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 2: are the people that we want architecting.

456
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: Are like traditional values.

457
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,959
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that is that a strategy here? Like

458
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: really exposing the ways that these are just like small,

459
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 2: weird losers and that they're not larger than life figures,

460
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,879
Speaker 2: and that like we are smarter than them. There are

461
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 2: more of us than there are of and that like yeah,

462
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 2: and like we need to remember that that like we

463
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 2: can defeat them. They're not like big, smart, savvy people.

464
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 2: Is that is that a strategy here? Yes?

465
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: So it's like you know, I'm not saying they're not

466
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: scary or they're not dangerous. It's absolutely not the message here.

467
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: But like if you let this fear sort of like

468
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: spin out of control and let them become these like

469
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: larger than life figures in your mind, then you do

470
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,160
Speaker 1: feel disempowered to do anything about it. Like if these

471
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: are these aren't just some fucking guy, right, It's just

472
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: some fucking guy, and some guy can be defeated, right,

473
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 1: this the idea of the monster is much more frightening

474
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: than the weird guy.

475
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, after watching I mean that horrifying video of a

476
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,479
Speaker 2: woman being dragged out of a meeting in Idaho, I

477
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 2: when I saw the video was like this is I mean,

478
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: it is terrifying, right, But then you hear you read

479
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: about the sheriff who you know speaks to her initially,

480
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: and everybody is like, oh, you want to know more

481
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 2: about this guy. Here's his history of like weird, shitty,

482
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: terrible behavior, And part of me is like wow, like

483
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: he read like, first of all, if somebody with that

484
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: kind of a background, I'm like, you probably should not

485
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: have put yourself out here to be publicly scrutinized on

486
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: a national stage. But also it's like, these are people

487
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 2: with so many frailties and skeletons in their closet and like,

488
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: I don't know somebody about that story. I found very

489
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: empowering of like yeah, get them, Like I'm glad we're

490
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 2: all talking about like whether or not he's pulling some

491
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: kind of a disability scam right now? Like do you

492
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying? Like like who decided that the

493
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 2: who put these assholes in charge? Like who decided that

494
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: this person knows better about how to run anything than me?

495
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: Exactly? Like they they all have just something terribly humiliating

496
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: in their background, right Like, oh, you may be the

497
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 1: guy who wrote the book that inspired of you know,

498
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 1: dozens of mass murderers to commit accid, unspeakable terror. But

499
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: like I've read your bankruptcy filings and I know you

500
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: got fired from Walmart, Like.

501
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, weird little guy. I mean like that really

502
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: that title really does say it all. These are weird

503
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: little guys.

504
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: They're small, They're small in you know, they're mentally small,

505
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,719
Speaker 1: Their minds are small, their hearts are small, and we

506
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 1: can defeat them.

507
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 2: You know, there's been a lot of talk about this

508
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: really being a time where folks should be leaning in

509
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 2: and staying checked in and showing up at town hall

510
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 2: meetings or meetings in their local communities to demand accountability

511
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: from elected officials. Do you have any advice for folks

512
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 2: doing that, maybe for the first time meaningfully in their lives.

513
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, just go, just go to the meeting. And no,

514
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, Oh gosh, me think it's been so

515
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: many years. There's this steep learning curve, Like you know,

516
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: when I first intern showing up to these meetings, like

517
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,440
Speaker 1: they seem overwhelming, it's confusing, Like there's a very specific

518
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: language of the wave bureaucracy is conducted. You know. It's

519
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: so don't be afraid to just sit quietly for a

520
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: meeting or two until you figure out the space that

521
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: you're in. You know, read the agenda online. You can

522
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: watch old meetings online if you want to. If there's

523
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: local groups in your area that go to these meetings

524
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 1: in an organized fashion, talk to them, ask them questions.

525
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's someone there who will talk to you

526
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 1: about it. I know you're rights. I think there's a

527
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: lot of intimidation that goes on, right like you, if

528
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,120
Speaker 1: you don't know that you are allowed to be there,

529
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: you might be bullied out of that room. Like when

530
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: I first started going to not just city council meetings,

531
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: I started going to every public meeting I could find

532
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: because I was very unemployed, and there's all these boards

533
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: and commissions in my town. I would go to these meetings,

534
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 1: and it was obvious in some of these rooms that

535
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: no one had ever come before, that no member of

536
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: the public had ever walked into that room and watched

537
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 1: them have their meeting. Because they would say things like, oh,

538
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: you can't be in here, and I would have to say, well, no,

539
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm familiar with the law, and yes I can. The

540
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: law says you have to let me be in this room.

541
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: To gaslight you into making you think that you were

542
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 2: like trespassing essentially.

543
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: Like that you're oh, you're not supposed to be in here,

544
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: we're having a meeting. It's like, yeah, I know, that's

545
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: why I'm here. I'm here to watch you have this meeting.

546
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: And it changes their behavior, Like even if you say nothing,

547
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: just the act of witnessing them have their government meeting

548
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: changes their behavior. And so I think, even if you

549
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: have no intention of making a public comment, go be

550
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: in the room, make them look at you, make them

551
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: know that their constituents are aware of what they're talking about.

552
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: Do you think that, especially now that it seems like, oh,

553
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 2: I mean, when I think about what's happening federally. I

554
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: just it's very hard to find anything hopeful to grab

555
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: onto you.

556
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not looking there for hope.

557
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean maybe it's local. Maybe, like that's where

558
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: like that's where you can actually like grab on to something.

559
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: Right, Like I have no like, you know, calling my

560
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 1: congressman's not going to do anything. He was at January sixth,

561
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: like he looks like a haunted Marionette doll and he

562
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: loves fascism. Like I'm not called him, but I know,

563
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: but I know that, you know, when it comes up

564
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: for a vote at my school board. You know, a

565
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, they voted to take the cops

566
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: out of our local schools, right, because having cops in

567
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: schools is proven. There's academic studies proving that it like

568
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: worsens outcomes, particularly for black students. It increases the level

569
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 1: of violence in the schools. It does not make anyone safer.

570
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: So they took the cops out. They did the right thing,

571
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: and they took them out. But now they're talking about

572
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: putting them back. Right, So like, I can't make my

573
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: congressmen do anything about fascism at the federal level, but

574
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: I can be in the room to make sure that,

575
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, black kids at my local middle school aren't

576
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: terrorized by a school resource officer. That's something I can do.

577
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 2: I mean that that actually feels a little like that

578
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: feels real to me, Like that, Like that feels like

579
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: a like a change that like you could see you

580
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: can feel in your commune, like in your town.

581
00:29:55,320 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: And it's not meaningless, right, these small things they feel insignificant,

582
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 1: you know, in the face of the horrors that are

583
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: that are inundating us every day. But it's not meaningless

584
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: to the people whose lives it touches, right that, Like

585
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,719
Speaker 1: you know, one fourteen year old black boy gets arrested

586
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: by the school resource officer, that's the rest of his

587
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: life ruined, right, Like that is a life changing act

588
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: of violence for a child. And that's something that you

589
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: can have an impact on.

590
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: More.

591
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

592
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 2: In all of this work, I mean, I have to ask,

593
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: Like we talk about this on the show kind of

594
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: a lot, like a lot of the sort of dangerous

595
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: work of chronicling extremists, pushing back against extremists is being

596
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: done by marginalized communities. Women. You know that I think

597
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: that that's not a coincidence. And all. So women are

598
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: like uniquely targeted for this work. Like it's usually not

599
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: just us, it's like us in our family, us and

600
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 2: our partner. How do you, how do you how how

601
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: has that been for you? And how do you keep

602
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: yourself sort of fafe and like okay to show up

603
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: and do this work.

604
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: Dissociation number one Number one, just I don't I don't

605
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: live in this body. I'm not a here. I mean,

606
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: that's laughing, that's not funny. Although I will say I

607
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: haven't gotten a death threat in months, and that's the

608
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,239
Speaker 1: first time in years that I can say that. Like

609
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: it used to be like every week I was getting,

610
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: you know, a message from some guy who's like, I'm

611
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: gonna shoot you in the chest and then fuck the

612
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: whole you know, like weird stuff.

613
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: Lord, Like.

614
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Dad, I think they're afraid of being on the show.

615
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: Oh my god, if they were a weird little guy,

616
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 2: it's like today, I'm weird little guys. Listen to that

617
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: voicemail that Chad left me and then it's played in

618
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: its entirely entirely.

619
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're afraid of being on the show.

620
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,239
Speaker 1: But no, I think this is something that especially you know,

621
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: the female colleagues that I have. That is something we've

622
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: been talking about for years, right, is that there are

623
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, white men with well paying staff jobs in

624
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: newsrooms who do similar work and they don't really get

625
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: the same threats I want say they don't get them.

626
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm you know, not stealing valor or you know,

627
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: diminishing the threats that we all face in this work.

628
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: But it is different for women. It is different for

629
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: people of color, It is different for Jewish anti fascists,

630
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: like it is it is different for people who are

631
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: not white men. The level of a triol is much

632
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: more appalling. The amount that people care when it happens

633
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: to you is significantly less. And I think we know

634
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: why both of those things are true. God, I will

635
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: never forget this. Years ago, but a white man who

636
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: makes a living writing about the far right told me

637
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: that he was jealous about how many threats that I

638
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: get because it just seems so interesting to him and

639
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: if that's never happened to him in his work, that

640
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: it was just he was a little bit jealous, Like

641
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: why would you say that to me?

642
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: My god, I mean.

643
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: People are calling the hospital where my mom works to

644
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: like say gross stuff and you you like that? Do

645
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: you think that would be fun?

646
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: I mean this might sound like a silly question, like

647
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: I think I know what you're gonna say, but I'm

648
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 2: gonna ask it anyway. What like fills your cup? What

649
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: brings you joy? What nourishes you to keep you checked

650
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: in here?

651
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean the show is called Weird Little Guys because

652
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: I genuinely love finding a weird guy, and so like

653
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: Sophie came up with the name because like in the

654
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: in the work chat, like I'm constantly coming, coming, you know,

655
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: coming to everyone and being like, look look at this,

656
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: Look at this fucked up thing I found. Look at

657
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: this weird guy that I found. Right And like you

658
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: know when your dog finds like a really nasty dead

659
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: bug outside and he's like so excited to show it

660
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: to you, Like that's me. I love it, like I

661
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: made I made a little discovery last week that that's

662
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: going in next week's episode, like over the Moon, just

663
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: like out of control, excited. I found something crazy.

664
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: So I thought, what we're gonna say, you're dogs, But

665
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: I was even more.

666
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 1: Yes, of course, my precious dogs.

667
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 2: I will tell you one time I was walking down

668
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: the shoe with my partner and there was a guy

669
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 2: walking to Doccins and my partner looks over and says,

670
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,240
Speaker 2: look at those two double look at those double d's.

671
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 2: And it was the funniest thing I've ever heard. And

672
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: every time you post a picture of your dogs, I

673
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 2: think about it, like it's like double d's, so double d's, Oh.

674
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: I mean looking at a Docson, I think is just

675
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: an unparalleled experience. I mean I love to look at

676
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: any dog. I love to look at a dog. I

677
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: love to see a dog, love to pet a dog,

678
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 1: love dogs. But something about a weeder dog is like,

679
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you think I'd be over it. They're like

680
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: eight and a half years old now. But every time

681
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 1: I look at them, it's like, why do you look

682
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: like that?

683
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: They always look like they're worried about something. It's like

684
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: what should be worried about? Like Buck.

685
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,959
Speaker 1: Buck looks like he works two jobs and can't make rent,

686
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,439
Speaker 1: Like he looks so pressured by the world. Otto does

687
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: not He's never and it had never in his life,

688
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: had a single thought in his head. It's so beautiful,

689
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: like he's he's fine. All he prefaces by saying he's

690
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: fine now, but he was completely paralyzed. In twenty twenty one,

691
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: he had a spontaneous rupture of one of his discs

692
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,800
Speaker 1: in his back, which is unfortunately something that kind of

693
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: happened to Dodson's, like he had no existing injury. It

694
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: just happened, and all of a sudden he was completely

695
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 1: paralyzed and he had to have back surgery and the

696
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: prognosis was bad. And so after the surgery, he was

697
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: home and his back legs didn't work and he was

698
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: wearing a diaper. He was drugged up and like and

699
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: so he couldn't This bladder didn't work. So I had

700
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: to manually express his bladder by like squeezing on it.

701
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: And the that was like, dogs, really don't like this.

702
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: He's probably gonna bite you, And I was like, it's not.

703
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: And for two weeks paralyzed, miserable, having to have his

704
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: bladder manually expressed every three hours around the clock. He

705
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: never he did not care. It didn't even seem to

706
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: register with him that anything was wrong.

707
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 2: He was just vibing, not a thought in that doggy head.

708
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: And I think we can all learn a lot from Otto.

709
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: Don't think yeah by just.

710
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: By I aspire to be like Auto. I mean, as

711
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: I say, like, the the joy that you get out

712
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 2: of researching and breaking down these weird little guys is

713
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 2: palpable when you listen to the show, and I do, like,

714
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds weird to say, but like you

715
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: can tell that it is very much a labor of

716
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: love when you listen to the podcast. And is that

717
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: Is that how it's better for you?

718
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: Yes, And I'm glad that that comes through because I

719
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: you know, if it stops being a thrill to you know,

720
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: to hunt and find and seek and dig, and if

721
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: it stops being you know, emotionally crushing to tell the

722
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 1: stories of harm that was done to people, then I'll stop.

723
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: Then I'll stop if I can go, you know, if

724
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: there's not an episode where Rory has to edit out

725
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: the takes where like I'm audibly crying, then like it's

726
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: time to go, because I think that matters.

727
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 3: You know.

728
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 1: I started telling these kinds of stories for my own community,

729
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: right like I had. Don't look it up. It's still

730
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: on the internet somewhere. It's not good. But years ago.

731
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: It was twenty eighteen when the man who murdered Heather

732
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: Hier went on trial. I was able to attend the

733
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: entire trial, and many people were not because it was

734
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: the courtroom was so full of like, you know, fucking

735
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: ghouls from out of town, like you know, CNN reporters

736
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: doing their nightly hits. And so I during that trial,

737
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: I made this like little podcast that my intention was

738
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 1: it was just for my community, right, So I started

739
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: telling these stories for my own community, and even though

740
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm doing anymore, right, I'm telling them

741
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: for these broader audiences. I just got an email the

742
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: other day from a listener in Scottsdale who said, you know,

743
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: I heard the way that you talk about Charlottesville, and

744
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 1: it's obviously very personal for you, but you talked about

745
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: my city the same way, and that meant a lot, right,

746
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: And so just being able to carry that sort of

747
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: care with me that I'm telling these stories that affected

748
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: real people's lives, that are continue to affect real people's lives.

749
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: And if I can't do that with care, then I

750
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it.

751
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: I am so glad that they haven't made us stop caring,

752
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: Like I'm so good, Like they throw shit at us

753
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: every day, but the fact that you still care and

754
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 2: it still connects, and that you're still moved by these stories,

755
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 2: I think really says a lot. And I'm just very

756
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 2: glad that that passion and real empathy is still there,

757
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: because like I wake up every day worried that like

758
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: if today the day we're like I turn it off

759
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 2: or I'm like I've stopped feeling, I'm numbed out, I

760
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: don't give a fuck, like do what you're gonna do,

761
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: like going down with the ship. I worry about that

762
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: in myself, and it's just very clear that, like you

763
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: have a vast reservoir of that inside, and I'm very

764
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: glad for that.

765
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 1: But it's an active practice, right, Like it's something I

766
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 1: cultivate with intention, right that it's something I have been

767
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 1: saying for years, Right that, like I work very hard

768
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 1: every day not to become hard. Right that, Like I

769
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: don't wish harm on even even the worst of these monsters, right,

770
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: Like I don't. I don't sit here thinking, oh, I

771
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: hope something really bad happens. I don't. I don't fault

772
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: you if you do. I think that's perfectly fine, it's understandable.

773
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: But like what I want is for them to stop

774
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: hurting people. And I don't know that wishing harm on

775
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: them is good for my heart?

776
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: Do you? Maybe the answer is no, But do you

777
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: have any advice on how we can kind of protect

778
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 2: our softness and not lose that when things feel so awful?

779
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 2: Asking for myself?

780
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, asking for a friend.

781
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: I don't know.

782
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, And I have found myself in telling

783
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: these stories, trying to make sure to include parts of

784
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: the story that are not about the monster. Right, Like,

785
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,839
Speaker 1: there was an episode months ago about Verry Black, who's

786
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: a clansman from Pennsylvania who challenged Virginia's cross burning law

787
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: and won many years ago, got all the way to

788
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, and you know, it's this terrible story

789
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 1: about a terrible man winning. But within that story there

790
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: was the story of this older, straight couple that ran

791
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: the only gay bar in world western Pennsylvania. And like that,

792
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: they had the courage of their convictions and they stood

793
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: up to the class and fire bombings and people shooting

794
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 1: at the bar, and like it just it mattered to

795
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: them that gay people had a place to go. Even

796
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: though they were straight. They didn't have gay kids, they

797
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,839
Speaker 1: had no connection to this community. It just wasn't something

798
00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: that mattered to them, and just like finding someone in

799
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: these stories who was so good in a way that

800
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: is I don't know, it's just special because in every

801
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 1: story of a monster, there is there is a Pat Kramer.

802
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: You know, there is someone in all of these stories

803
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 1: who did the right thing when they didn't have to.

804
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: I usually end these conversations asking like, what keeps you

805
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: hopeful or what are you hopeful in this moment? I

806
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 2: feel like it might be that like that, like that,

807
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: even in these stories of like monsters, there are regular

808
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: folks who want to do the right thing, regular folks

809
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: who challenge these monsters and win.

810
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: And some times the person in the story who did

811
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: the beautiful thing doesn't win. Sometimes they die. There was

812
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: an episode of few weeks ago about the story of

813
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: the Portland Max train stabbings in twenty seventeen where three

814
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: men were stabbed defending these two teenage girls from a

815
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: Nazi and two of them died. They didn't win, right,

816
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,360
Speaker 1: but like what they did was beautiful and hopeful and tragic,

817
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: And I guess that's you know, in times where we're

818
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 1: all looking for hope and it's hard to find it,

819
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: the knowledge that maybe you don't win. Maybe I don't win.

820
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: Maybe we in this moment are not winning, but we will,

821
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: Like even if you and I don't get to be

822
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: the ones who do it or see it, we will,

823
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: and there's there's hope for future people like us.

824
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: Sorry, really beautiful, I'm like tearing up. I feel like

825
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 2: I needed I needed to hear that.

826
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: You know, we don't. We don't do it for ourselves.

827
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: We do it for all of us.

828
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: Mollie, that show is weird, little guys, Where can folks listen? Is?

829
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 2: It is so needed right now? How can folks check

830
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 2: it out?

831
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts.

832
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 1: Every podcast app I think Cooler Zone Media subscription is

833
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: not yet available for Android, but you can get it

834
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: on Apple if you want to listen to it ad free,

835
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 1: but anywhere you get your podcasts, download it on all

836
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: of those apps and listen to it on all of

837
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: them so by get more downloads, so Sophie will be

838
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 1: proud of me.

839
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: Give Molly all the downloads. Y'all please listen it is.

840
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 2: It is a fantastic, phenomenal show. Congratulations on it. Anything

841
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: that I did not ask that you want to make

842
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: sure it gets included.

843
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: Gosh, I don't think so, go to your next school

844
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: board meeting and download my podcast and petadoxin.

845
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: Yes, in that order. Mollie, thank you for being here

846
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: and thanks for all you're doing. I'm like, genuinely so

847
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: happy that that there are people like you in the

848
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 2: world and in this fight and in this thing.

849
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I had a

850
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 1: good time. Sorry I made usppose cry.

851
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 2: No, this was I need. I needed this. Got a

852
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want

853
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 2: to say hi. You can reach us at Hello at

854
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts for today's

855
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: episode at tengody dot com. There Are No Girls on

856
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. It's a

857
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative Jonathan Strickland is our

858
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 2: executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

859
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:43,399
Speaker 2: Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

860
00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: If you want to help us grow, rate and review us.

861
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 3: On Apple Podcasts.

862
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

863
00:44:50,719 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

864
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 4: Why Wait