Speaker 1: Good.
Speaker 2: All right, break it down.
Speaker 3: If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
Speaker 3: and Cat got your cob and locking No, brother, ladies
Speaker 3: and felts, do you just follow an the spirit where
Speaker 3: it's all the front over real stuff, tell the chill
Speaker 3: stuff and the.
Speaker 2: M but sway.
Speaker 3: Sometimes the best thing you can do it jes stop
Speaker 3: you feel things. This is feeling things with.
Speaker 4: Amy and Cat.
Speaker 2: Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things. I'm Amy and I'm Cat.
Speaker 2: And today we are doing a drama triangle sort of
Speaker 2: deep dive. Is it a deep dive into the drama
Speaker 2: triangle or just like school time?
Speaker 4: I'd call it an overview?
Speaker 2: Oh what? Oh?
Speaker 4: Over We're doing a what do they call it? High level?
Speaker 4: We're not getting into.
Speaker 2: We're not going yeah, okay, so this is just shallow dive.
Speaker 4: And then if we need to do a deep dive,
Speaker 4: we can. But I think that will hit. But we
Speaker 4: need to hit.
Speaker 2: You know what you need to know by staying in
Speaker 2: the kiddie pool. Yeah, it's safe.
Speaker 4: Where it's safe.
Speaker 2: It's like a hot tub. Hot tub is like the
Speaker 2: safe part of the pool. We're not going deep.
Speaker 4: The hot tub is not is a different part of
Speaker 4: the pool.
Speaker 2: I know it's generally safe, right, because it's not I guess.
Speaker 4: So I like hot tubs.
Speaker 1: Some people have a weird relationship with them and they
Speaker 1: don't like them, Like people don't like to get in
Speaker 1: the hot tub because they can be gross.
Speaker 2: The last time I did something at a public resort,
Speaker 2: it wasn't a hot tub, hop tub hot It wasn't
Speaker 2: that a hot tub hot tub. It was a hot
Speaker 2: spring hot tub. So it's natural from the earth. And
Speaker 2: I think that the temperature of this particular spring was
Speaker 2: one hundred and five, so that you kill everything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was pretty hot, but it's snowing out. It's so cool.
Speaker 4: Well, I think most hot tubs are sanitary because don't
Speaker 4: they have chlorine in them or chemicals or chemicals like
Speaker 4: a pool.
Speaker 2: Let's hope. So. And I feel like if we went
Speaker 2: to the staff at any place, we'd be like, is
Speaker 2: this being treated properly? They would be like, yes, we.
Speaker 4: Have to say that exactly, and they're like, okay, well,
Speaker 4: so we're not in the hot tub, We're just in
Speaker 4: the hot spring.
Speaker 2: Yeah. See, I was just creating a little drama. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but the drama. You didn't like it either. You were
Speaker 2: feeling feisty because I brought a hot tub.
Speaker 4: Well, I've already even feeling feisty.
Speaker 2: Is that your feeling other day?
Speaker 4: I don't feel feisty.
Speaker 1: I feel like I was coming off as feisty, but
Speaker 1: that's not I didn't feel that.
Speaker 4: I felt frustrated.
Speaker 2: You you're frustrated. I almost would rather be feisty than
Speaker 2: frustrated that I wasn't mad. Okay, what are you frustrated at? Abound?
Speaker 4: Can I share this? I can share this, I think so.
Speaker 1: I just like wanted to talk about my feeling of
Speaker 1: the day, which was excited, and I was excited because
Speaker 1: my birthday is coming up.
Speaker 4: And then you were like, your birthday will pass. Let's
Speaker 4: be passed.
Speaker 2: You said, just like this, you said your birthday will
Speaker 2: be passed.
Speaker 4: You can't talk about that.
Speaker 2: It's not how I said it. And you know it.
Speaker 4: I'm teeing up an example for the drama triangle, okay,
Speaker 4: And you were just like, we can't talk about that.
Speaker 4: It'll be passed. Nobody will want to hear about your birthday. Okay.
Speaker 2: See what Kat's doing here is she is making me
Speaker 2: into the persecutor big time. Yeah, and she's getting to
Speaker 2: be the victim here.
Speaker 4: So I can get my needs met, yes.
Speaker 2: Which her. The need that she has is to talk
Speaker 2: about her birthday. And it's working because here we are,
Speaker 2: we're talking about it. And what I would like to
Speaker 2: say in regard to that is a long time ago,
Speaker 2: we had a calendar meeting on how we wanted to
Speaker 2: roll out episodes, and this is kind of behind the
Speaker 2: scenes in the Weeds sort of stuff. But Kat's doing
Speaker 2: a lot of video things and she was like, ooh,
Speaker 2: our big feeling things episode, it'd be good if we
Speaker 2: had that done a week in advance. So we've got
Speaker 2: a lot of time to edit the clips and see
Speaker 2: what we want to pull for socials and get it
Speaker 2: on YouTube and whatnot. Yeah, okay, I get that too.
Speaker 2: Also Houston, that gives him more time to edit as well.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: Turns out Houston has kept his same editing schedule, so
Speaker 2: I don't think if we alter it it'll affect him
Speaker 2: at all. But since we're recording a week out, yes,
Speaker 2: when this airs, Kat's birthday will have passed.
Speaker 4: And nobody will have cared about it.
Speaker 2: Nobody said that, but we do have an episode coming
Speaker 2: out on your birthday, So I thought that Couch Talks
Speaker 2: episode would be a great time to like bring up
Speaker 2: your birthday, That's all I was saying. But I think
Speaker 2: you're onto something because I want to just talk about
Speaker 2: Stevenson's race. But this will air like way after that.
Speaker 2: We can talk about our Thanksgiving plans. This is airing
Speaker 2: way after that because stiring on like December eighth, ninth, whatever, whatever,
Speaker 2: that Tuesday and ninth, the ninth, and you know, we
Speaker 2: can revisit this. So now if it's no difference to you,
Speaker 2: because I know it won't bother Houston, should we just
Speaker 2: start recording our Tuesday episodes the Monday before. So everything's fresh, yeah,
Speaker 2: and we are bringing in the freshest of the fresh.
Speaker 2: We can talk about our lives in real times. This
Speaker 2: is like so fresh. This is like right when the
Speaker 2: vegetables arrive at the grocery store.
Speaker 4: No, it's right when they pick them off the tree. Yes,
Speaker 4: the vine.
Speaker 2: You're the first come to the ground. Yeah, fresh, never frozen,
Speaker 2: that kind of fresh.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Technically our episodes now are a little bit frozen. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna start giving them to you fresh. And
Speaker 2: I think that podcasting gives you that flexibility to pre
Speaker 2: tape in that way. I do come from a very
Speaker 2: fresh live radio world, so that's probably why in my
Speaker 2: brain I'm like, we're in the moment, we're doing things,
Speaker 2: or if that has been like.
Speaker 4: We don't you want to confuse people?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was just I'm I'm down for that.
Speaker 2: So now we have talked about your birthday, which is
Speaker 2: what you wanted. Happy birthday, And then we came up
Speaker 2: with a new plan that I think is going to
Speaker 2: be better. But now we just have to get on
Speaker 2: track to do do it well.
Speaker 1: I will say I really appreciate this plan because this
Speaker 1: plan really I think was created for my benefit. But
Speaker 1: I think I've learned I don't start editing the clips
Speaker 1: until the week of Yeah, so does that matter?
Speaker 2: So yay, thanks for your patients listeners and walking through
Speaker 2: that with us. And maybe you did see a little
Speaker 2: bit of victim mode because Kat was really turning it
Speaker 2: on and she made me out to be persecutor in
Speaker 2: full transfer. And see that's not how our conversation really went.
Speaker 2: Like it was for dramatization purposes, we acted that out.
Speaker 2: So in the drama triangle, there's the victim, the persecutor,
Speaker 2: and the the rescuer. Yeah, it's rarely how I show up.
Speaker 2: So do you think I show up as the rescuer
Speaker 2: a lot? I mean sometimes I kind of want to
Speaker 2: control it and fix it, but I've been working on that.
Speaker 4: Well, it's not bad. Okay, I know we're not bad.
Speaker 2: I know it's not bad, but I I okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're getting ahead of ourselves.
Speaker 1: So I'll let you go, okay, because I think that
Speaker 1: I want to talk about two things before we even
Speaker 1: get to those roles.
Speaker 2: So before we proceed, though, is there anything else you
Speaker 2: would like to say about your birthday? Because you did
Speaker 2: see you were excited and we didn't really expand on
Speaker 2: that feeling.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm excited about it and I just wanted everybody
Speaker 4: to know it's coming up.
Speaker 2: On December fourth. So well, we'll talk about it in
Speaker 2: couch Talks, which you heard last Thursday.
Speaker 1: It probably won't, Yes, we will. So now you're making
Speaker 1: me talk about my birthday a lot. This is backfiring.
Speaker 2: Well, I've I planned on talking about your birthday in
Speaker 2: that episode, but we just haven't recorded it yet.
Speaker 4: Oh thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just didn't know that I ruined the surprise.
Speaker 4: Were you going to bring out a cake and everything.
Speaker 2: No, I have a half a loaf of banana bread
Speaker 2: I could bring in. I just wanted to say I
Speaker 2: didn't really want to talk about my birthday.
Speaker 1: I think I just wanted to say I'm feeling excited
Speaker 1: because currently I am feeling excited. That is my true
Speaker 1: emotion right now, because my birthday is coming and I
Speaker 1: enjoy my birthday. Although I will say sorry to feel
Speaker 1: less excited than normal because turning thirty six isn't like ooho,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah.
Speaker 2: But thirty six is three plus six is nine and
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just I'm trying to do something.
Speaker 4: We've a special number seven to sell my house, wasn't
Speaker 4: it like.
Speaker 2: Oh I think eight eight? Oh okay, well that's address numerology.
Speaker 4: Oh it's different time. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I'm just excited. Thank you for the opportunity to
Speaker 1: talk about it.
Speaker 2: And what are you doing for your birthday? Because I
Speaker 2: am going to be sadly out of town.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So my actual birthday birthday, I'm working. Usually I take
Speaker 1: the day off, but I had to move my schedule
Speaker 1: around this week, so I have to work. I get
Speaker 1: to work on my birthday, and then I think I'm
Speaker 1: just going to dinner with Patrick. But what we do
Speaker 1: is we don't pick our birthday dinner. We plan for
Speaker 1: the other person's birthday dinner, and we don't tell them
Speaker 1: what it is until we show up there.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And then I'm really interested to see what he
Speaker 1: got me because it came in like a month ago
Speaker 1: and he's been really excited about it. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's like it could be one of two things.
Speaker 1: It could be something really cool, or it could be
Speaker 1: something he like found on an Instagram ad.
Speaker 2: So isn't he hiding it in the garage or wasn't
Speaker 2: he tinkering with it or working on it or something,
Speaker 2: because didn't he say at some point you thought he
Speaker 2: was like surprising me with something else, and he was like, no, no,
Speaker 2: you could go in there, that's your birthday present.
Speaker 4: No he was. He spent like an hour. He went
Speaker 4: downstairs and wouldn't let me come downstairs. He was in
Speaker 4: the living room on his computer and he was like
Speaker 4: on his computer for like an hour, and then I
Speaker 4: came downstairs.
Speaker 1: I was like, can I come down now? And he
Speaker 1: said yes, but don't come over here. And it was
Speaker 1: like hiding his computer screen. I'm like, what item that
Speaker 1: you're ordering from the internet takes you an hour? Maybe
Speaker 1: he ordered me tickets to something, and like the tickets were.
Speaker 2: Going on and then also he couldn't get into a
Speaker 2: corner of the room to where like you couldn't see
Speaker 2: his screen. I guess not as he running up projector.
Speaker 1: But then it came in the mail. So it can't
Speaker 1: be like tickets to something because they wuldn't mail those.
Speaker 2: What could it be? I don't know. Well, we're gonna
Speaker 2: find out. Are you already know when this is hearing
Speaker 2: you already know? That's fun that like I know, but
Speaker 2: I don't know, but like right now I do know,
Speaker 2: Like when people are hearing this, you already know.
Speaker 4: Current me doesn't know, but then like future.
Speaker 2: Current me does December ninth, you knows.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, well I'll give you guys updated.
Speaker 1: He's gotten me a couple things off of like Instagram
Speaker 1: ads that have been like really funny, So hopefully it's not.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to find out, and then I can't
Speaker 2: wait to celebrate you once I'm back.
Speaker 4: Well you can just celebrate me now, Okay. Why don't
Speaker 4: have anything you don't have to give me anything.
Speaker 1: What Yeah, no, yeah, okay, anyway, I'm done talking about
Speaker 1: my birthday.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, are you done talking about a birthday?
Speaker 4: Yes? All right. So we're talking about the drama tangle.
Speaker 1: And the reason we're doing this is because it's the holidays,
Speaker 1: and when the holidays come, what comes with the holidays.
Speaker 2: Drama because you're around family period, and just like in general,
Speaker 2: there's gatherings, there's stress.
Speaker 1: Yes, So the drama triangle is a type of unhealthy
Speaker 1: pattern of communication that all of us engage in. So
Speaker 1: I say that, I'm gonna say that right now because
Speaker 1: we have a tendency to think I want to say
Speaker 1: this kind I mean this very kindly. But like in general,
Speaker 1: most of us have a tendency to think a little
Speaker 1: bit more highly of our communication patterns than they probably
Speaker 1: really are.
Speaker 4: We all do this. It is universal. So there's no
Speaker 4: shame in playing this game.
Speaker 2: I have literally been every character, all three. I've played
Speaker 2: all three roles. The thing with me is, I know
Speaker 2: I can be all three. It's just sometimes I don't
Speaker 2: know exactly in the moment when I'm doing it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like I may.
Speaker 2: Not have like I'll eventually have the awareness hopefully please,
Speaker 2: or it may need to be brought to my attention
Speaker 2: and then I'll be like, oh shoot, but it's not
Speaker 2: because I know them. I think I am hopefully a
Speaker 2: little more aware, but I definitely know that I partake
Speaker 2: and I am I'm just not aware.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we all partake.
Speaker 1: The lesson in this is how to notice that you're
Speaker 1: on it, so then you can get off of it,
Speaker 1: not to like not ever get on it.
Speaker 4: I will get on it again.
Speaker 1: You will do it again. Everybody will do it again.
Speaker 1: So there's that everybody does it.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Before we talk about the drama triangle itself, I wanted
Speaker 1: to touch on two things that we've talked about but
Speaker 1: we haven't really named them in this way that can
Speaker 1: help you understand the drama trangle a little bit better.
Speaker 1: And the one is the first one is fact versus story.
Speaker 1: So when I say fact versus story, I imagine you
Speaker 1: have some idea of what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, what's the data or the facts and
Speaker 2: what's absolutely true and then what's the story that you've
Speaker 2: made up around it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so all of the data in our life
Speaker 1: can be put in two different categories, fact and story.
Speaker 1: So Another way to look at that is the content,
Speaker 1: which is the facts, and the context, which is the
Speaker 1: stories we create.
Speaker 4: Around the facts.
Speaker 1: And most of what we all of us in general,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about things, most of what we're talking
Speaker 1: about is the context. We're usually talking in story versus
Speaker 1: just talking about the facts of our lives. And I
Speaker 1: want to give an example of this, because it's easy
Speaker 1: to confuse.
Speaker 4: Facts and story.
Speaker 1: A lot of the things that we think are facts
Speaker 1: are really just stories that we have created to make
Speaker 1: us feel right about the other stories that we have.
Speaker 4: I feel like that's a little confusing.
Speaker 1: But so I was listening to this podcast I think
Speaker 1: her name, I don't know who the guest name is,
Speaker 1: but the host was eleas Loewen.
Speaker 4: Have you heard of her. She's an author and she's
Speaker 4: also she gives me Brene Brown vibes. She is very
Speaker 4: smart and like she she's an author and writes books
Speaker 4: about like just like thought and her own theories and stuff.
Speaker 1: But she also is a student of work too. So
Speaker 1: she did this podcast with I.
Speaker 2: Really want to say. This woman's name is Courtney Smith
Speaker 2: and it.
Speaker 1: Is oh wow, yes, okay, and her podcast is called
Speaker 1: it Pulling the Thread.
Speaker 4: Yes, okay.
Speaker 1: Her voice is also really nice to listen to, so
Speaker 1: if you just like need a soothing voice, which Brene
Speaker 1: Brown's voice is soothing too.
Speaker 4: Very I don't know why I brought them up. Oh,
Speaker 4: I was listening to them.
Speaker 1: They talked about this too in an episode of her podcast,
Speaker 1: and Courtney Smith said that usually there's only two facts
Speaker 1: really to anything we're talking about, and then like the
Speaker 1: rest we just kind of make up because facts are
Speaker 1: pretty simple. So I'm going to give an example of
Speaker 1: what facts versus story could look like and also pay
Speaker 1: attention to, Like I'm gonna give a fact and then
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna give stories that could be there.
Speaker 4: I want to show that, like, our stories could be
Speaker 4: really helpful in motivating and encouraging, and our stories can
Speaker 4: be very drama filled and.
Speaker 1: Fear based, and based on which one we go with
Speaker 1: can totally change the trajectory of something with the same
Speaker 1: exact facts.
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna ask you maybe to give an example.
Speaker 1: Of this after you hear me do this, Okay, So
Speaker 1: listen to what I'm saying, but also think at the
Speaker 1: same time, got it?
Speaker 4: Okay, So a fact right now?
Speaker 1: For me?
Speaker 4: I have struggled to get pregnant. Period.
Speaker 1: That's the fact I have not been able to get
Speaker 1: pregnant on my own fact period. The stories I could
Speaker 1: create about that, and maybe some of these I have
Speaker 1: created could be I'm never going to be a mom.
Speaker 1: My body doesn't work properly, I'm being punished for something
Speaker 1: that I've done. God doesn't love me. My marriage is
Speaker 1: going to suffer. I'm going to have extra conflict in
Speaker 1: my marriage. I'm going to be too old to be
Speaker 1: a mom. Or I could say things like God is
Speaker 1: waiting for the perfect timing for me to have a kid,
Speaker 1: or this is creating so much space for me to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable and connect with my husband. This is going
Speaker 1: to strengthen my marriage because of the things we're going through.
Speaker 1: I'm going to learn so much about my body and
Speaker 1: understand more about the reproductive system than I ever thought
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 4: So do you see those two?
Speaker 1: And I could depending on where I am, because our
Speaker 1: stories also help us make sense of the world. So
Speaker 1: we usually have a level of story that we go with.
Speaker 1: I'm getting ahead of myself. There's two ways we can
Speaker 1: go with stories. We can go above the line, below
Speaker 1: the line. Have you heard this okay?
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 1: So above the line are stories that are very empowering, right,
Speaker 1: and they're motivating, they're helpful, they allow us to be
Speaker 1: an active participant in our life versus like life happening
Speaker 1: to us. And then below the line is when I
Speaker 1: am understanding things through a lens that, like the life
Speaker 1: is happening to me, very fear based, and they get
Speaker 1: you kind of stuck. So based on if I'm above
Speaker 1: the line and below the line is going to shape
Speaker 1: how I then proceed right and most of the time,
Speaker 1: most of the time, again this is like take shame
Speaker 1: out of it. We are wired to go below the line.
Speaker 1: We're wired to think fear based, and I think that's
Speaker 1: more of like think about how we were created, right,
Speaker 1: we had to be aware of our surroundings and what
Speaker 1: was going on so in order we could protect ourselves.
Speaker 1: It's the same idea that like fear helps us protect ourselves,
Speaker 1: therefore we're.
Speaker 4: Easy to go there.
Speaker 1: But when we go fear based, we end up cutting
Speaker 1: ourselves off from any other need outside of keeping myself safe.
Speaker 1: So learning, exploring, play, connection, all of that doesn't get met.
Speaker 1: I'm just making sure I'm protected. So I think if
Speaker 1: I go back to those stories, like the ones that
Speaker 1: I said first that were examples of being below the line,
Speaker 1: those would protect me from probably feeling my real feelings. Right, So, like,
Speaker 1: if God doesn't want me to be a mother, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: well then just accept that and like figure something else out.
Speaker 1: You can't like sit in the sadness that this is happening, right,
Speaker 1: or this is going to create conflict and struggle in
Speaker 1: your marriage. Doesn't allow me to actually see that this
Speaker 1: conflict in our marriage is creating all these.
Speaker 4: Opportunities for us too. So as I was saying that.
Speaker 5: Did you have you thought of like a fact? Have
Speaker 5: you thought of like a fact?
Speaker 2: Well, something that I've been thinking about recently, and I
Speaker 2: don't know if it's ever since my boyfriend said to
Speaker 2: me after I was sharing with him some overwhelm that
Speaker 2: I was having, And I think it's because I know
Speaker 2: our relationship is progressing and I have some fear around Well,
Speaker 2: I didn't get it right the first time. You know,
Speaker 2: my first marriage, even though it's not that it was
Speaker 2: wrong though it was a very long marriage and we
Speaker 2: had struggles getting pregnant, but we ended up adopting, so
Speaker 2: that ended up being a beautiful thing that happened from
Speaker 2: that relationship and we have a good co parenting relationship now.
Speaker 2: But I think as my current relationship progresses, I am
Speaker 2: feeling a lot of overwhelm of like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: what are we doing? And I need to slow down
Speaker 2: or I have some fear that's popping up. And he
Speaker 2: said to me, like, you have somebody right here that
Speaker 2: cares for you and loves you, and once your kids
Speaker 2: are doing well, Like he just was going through all
Speaker 2: these things and I was kind of in a negative mode,
Speaker 2: but he didn't really know what was deep down inside
Speaker 2: of me, and so I shared that as a little
Speaker 2: preface to the I am divorced period.
Speaker 4: That's a fact.
Speaker 2: That's a fact, and that's something I never thought I
Speaker 2: would be ever. And from that, like some of the
Speaker 2: things are like, yeah, am I now worthy of another relationship?
Speaker 2: Like yeah, because I wasn't a good wife the first time?
Speaker 2: You know, that's a story that that's a story. Yeah
Speaker 2: I was. Yeah, And how could we have adopted these
Speaker 2: kids and then split up? So now we've ruined their
Speaker 2: lives story because you know, when my dad left at nine,
Speaker 2: he ruined my life. I'm just kidding. It, which is
Speaker 2: also a story, also a story. Yes, because kids are resilient,
Speaker 2: adults are resilient. I have seen it firsthand and now
Speaker 2: been and night co parenting, and the healthiest way possible
Speaker 2: for us is showing that we're doing the best by
Speaker 2: our kids. And I think this is better for them
Speaker 2: than maybe been an icting together for them. Because then
Speaker 2: that was the line, that story above the line, that's
Speaker 2: above the line. And there's been a lot of healing
Speaker 2: that has been able to take place because of the
Speaker 2: separation of the divorce. So there is above the line
Speaker 2: stuff that has happened, but there are below the line
Speaker 2: stuff of like woe is me? Or why did this
Speaker 2: have to happen to me instead of for me? And
Speaker 2: I even think of like a silly example, cryocats in
Speaker 2: here running the cameras. But we were driving to the
Speaker 2: Tennessee game in Knoxville, and I was trying to get
Speaker 2: there early because we were meeting my boyfriend and he
Speaker 2: was tailgating and some friends and he wanted me to
Speaker 2: meet some people. And it's where he went to law
Speaker 2: school and his wife that passed away from cancer, she
Speaker 2: went to her undergrad there, so he was with some
Speaker 2: of her friends and I really wanted to get there
Speaker 2: early to see all these people, and we just wasn't
Speaker 2: gonna happen, Like we left later and then we missed
Speaker 2: an exit and it set us back another twelve minutes
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, well, now we're really not
Speaker 2: going to make it, and I was feeling bumped, and
Speaker 2: then Cavs like she went and did the little U
Speaker 2: turn to turn around and add the twelve minutes, and
Speaker 2: she's like, well, I'm just going to look at it
Speaker 2: as like that protected us from something like if we
Speaker 2: had stayed on that path, like who knows, maybe this
Speaker 2: now took us out of which that's just a way
Speaker 2: of looking at it above the line, like who knows?
Speaker 2: Do we know that that is really what happened? No,
Speaker 2: but it does help give you a different perspective that
Speaker 2: then allows you to take a deep breath and then
Speaker 2: just proceed and be in the moment instead of like, oh,
Speaker 2: why does this happen to me? Why do I always
Speaker 2: miss the exits and I'm not paying attention to the map?
Speaker 2: And then you spiral, So that's.
Speaker 1: Very and then that gets you any example, that's a
Speaker 1: great example actually because it will make sense as we
Speaker 1: talk about the drama trangle, because that is an example
Speaker 1: of you be feeling playing this victim role of.
Speaker 4: On the drama trangle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I give all of this pre context
Speaker 1: because we didn't even have to talk about all that
Speaker 1: to talk about the drama trangle.
Speaker 4: But I think it is very helpful.
Speaker 1: And when I heard them talk about it on that podcast,
Speaker 1: it gives a whole different way to think about what
Speaker 1: being on the drama trangle means. Because if you can
Speaker 1: understand the stories, and you can understand that you are
Speaker 1: writing stories over and over and over again and you
Speaker 1: were create in all these stories, you can have so
Speaker 1: much more power in one how you think, which is
Speaker 1: then going to.
Speaker 4: Shape how you operate throughout the world.
Speaker 1: So if I can take ownership of these stories, I
Speaker 1: can either acknowledge like, yeah, I'm writing these stories and
Speaker 1: they're not so great and that's why I'm sitting here,
Speaker 1: or I can acknowledge like, oh, I'm writing these stories.
Speaker 1: That means I can write them this way and I
Speaker 1: don't have.
Speaker 4: To sit here anymore.
Speaker 1: So these are very either way. Even either when you choose,
Speaker 1: at least you're owning it and choosing it. It gives
Speaker 1: us agency. So let's take those two ideas and then
Speaker 1: talk about how the drama triangle works.
Speaker 4: And this is actually really simple.
Speaker 1: It's a like sometimes can feel very complex, but this
Speaker 1: pattern of relationship in communication is very simple. It all
Speaker 1: stems from avoiding being direct and asking for your needs
Speaker 1: to be met, which again I'm just gonna keep saying
Speaker 1: this over and over. This is normal, This is normal,
Speaker 1: This is normal. Live in a world that loves to
Speaker 1: avoid any type of conflict, and sometimes asking for our
Speaker 1: needs is conflict. And so even me, like I was
Speaker 1: being kind of funny, but me playing that role of
Speaker 1: victim earlier about like Amy wouldn't let me talk about
Speaker 1: my birthday.
Speaker 2: Which is a story, which is a story.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a story. It's me saying that.
Speaker 1: So I couldn't say I really because I didn't want
Speaker 1: to say I really don't like this schedule anymore because
Speaker 1: I feel like we can't talk about things in real time.
Speaker 4: Is there any way we could revisit that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a low stakes example, but that's an
Speaker 1: example of me being vulnerable.
Speaker 2: And the the reason why it's like that is such
Speaker 2: a simple asset's like no drama. Yeah, So it's like
Speaker 2: if you do that, yeah, you're not in the drama triangle.
Speaker 2: That's why it's the it's the perfect name because when
Speaker 2: you avoid the direct line of communication and intentional dialogue,
Speaker 2: like we've talked about before in healthy communication, that's when
Speaker 2: the drama comes in.
Speaker 4: When the drama comes in the end.
Speaker 2: And while you say it is very normal, I will
Speaker 2: also say it's so helpful. Oh yeah, it's so like
Speaker 2: once you see it and it clicks with certain relationships
Speaker 2: where you understand where you and you can dance right,
Speaker 2: Like you'll probably get to that. But like, once you
Speaker 2: see it, you almost can't unsee it unless sometimes.
Speaker 4: You're in it, unless you really don't want to and
Speaker 4: you want.
Speaker 2: To avoid it. Like I said, sometimes I don't have
Speaker 2: awareness and then I need to be told and I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh shoot, yeah, you're right. But I'm glad I have
Speaker 2: the knowledge so that I can hopefully I'll remain in
Speaker 2: this space. Like I don't know, I could go on
Speaker 2: some un healthy path and not want the feedback, but
Speaker 2: like right now, I welcome that. Like if you, as
Speaker 2: my friend were to say hey me, hey hey me,
Speaker 2: hey me, hey me, hey Amy, I really feel like
Speaker 2: right now we're doing a little dance. And that's what
Speaker 2: even my kid's therapist, my son had a thervious once
Speaker 2: and he always called, don't do the dance. He's inviting
Speaker 2: you to tango and you are just you're You're like, okay,
Speaker 2: what time I'll be there, Let's dance, Let's do it.
Speaker 2: Turn the music up, and I would do the dance.
Speaker 2: And I remember too, like Ben and I and we
Speaker 2: were working through like we were still married and we
Speaker 2: were going through some stuff with our son and be
Speaker 2: I would look at Ben and I'd be like, you're
Speaker 2: doing the dance. The first of don't dance. You're you're
Speaker 2: doing the dance like I. Well, I mean, I would
Speaker 2: do it too, but he would probably call me it's
Speaker 2: it's easier to see it in your other people. So
Speaker 2: if Ben were here, he would say, oh yeah. And
Speaker 2: there's definitely times I would look at Amy and be like, Amy,
Speaker 2: stop dancing. You're doing the dance. And once you start
Speaker 2: seeing the dance, you're like, Okay, you that dance is
Speaker 2: not cool. But that's where sometimes if we're used to chaos,
Speaker 2: so we get a little bit bored. We're kind of
Speaker 2: like I kind of feel like dancing.
Speaker 4: Which happens, which does happen?
Speaker 2: It happens to guilty, Yeah, guilty in it.
Speaker 1: So as we explain these three roles, and I will
Speaker 1: preface this too, you can do this dance by and
Speaker 1: you can just go around and do all these three
Speaker 1: things by yourself, or you can triangulate somebody and be
Speaker 1: on this triangle with other people. So you can as
Speaker 1: you're listening, you can contextualize this in both ways. There
Speaker 1: is a role in here that is the victim, and
Speaker 1: I feel like it is very important to always give
Speaker 1: the preface that this is different. There are times when
Speaker 1: people are victims of their circumstances, things have happened to them.
Speaker 1: There is a place in time where you are a victim.
Speaker 1: That is not what we're talking about. What we're talking
Speaker 1: about is something that's more closely tied to victim consciousness,
Speaker 1: which is playing the role of victim when there is
Speaker 1: a healthy, easy way out of the situation you're in.
Speaker 4: So I just don't want to hear.
Speaker 1: I don't want anybody to hear that we're victim blaming
Speaker 1: or shaming or anything like that, because these are those
Speaker 1: are two separate things.
Speaker 2: Apples and orange and oranges.
Speaker 1: Yes, I wish there almost was like a different word
Speaker 1: for it. So in the drama triangle, so pattern of
Speaker 1: unhealthy communication, we get on this thing.
Speaker 4: We do this dance when we are.
Speaker 1: Avoiding or want to avoid asking for what our needs,
Speaker 1: are asking for our needs because of a fear around
Speaker 1: something usually tied to being vulnerable. And I'm going to
Speaker 1: give some alternate names too that I like a little better.
Speaker 1: So there's the victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor. The
Speaker 1: victim if you're explaining this with families a lot of
Speaker 1: times all or if I'm explaining this with a client
Speaker 1: that is going to take this home and talk about
Speaker 1: it with like her kids or somebody younger, I like
Speaker 1: to give them the name's victim is the helpless baby,
Speaker 1: which I guess we did find another name for it.
Speaker 1: Then there is the rescuer, which is the bossy helper,
Speaker 1: and then the persecutor is the blaming bully, which another
Speaker 1: word for persecutor also is just like the villain, like
Speaker 1: they are the villain in this story. So when you
Speaker 1: hear all of those, is there one that you're like,
Speaker 1: that one sounds nice or that one sounds like is
Speaker 1: there one that you're like, I don't want to do that,
Speaker 1: or is there one that you're.
Speaker 2: More I mean now, earlier we brought up the rescuer
Speaker 2: and I was like, I don't know that I do
Speaker 2: that one a lot, and you were like hmm, and
Speaker 2: I was like, well, shoot, maybe I do. Which you
Speaker 2: feel free. You have full permission to say whatever you
Speaker 2: want to say about me. I like with the mics on,
Speaker 2: I wish I was more. I think it'd be better
Speaker 2: to be the rescuer out of any of those, like
Speaker 2: I would rather show up as the rescuer, Like, yes,
Speaker 2: bossy helper sounds low, but I'd rather the bossy helper
Speaker 2: than the whiny, helpless baby. You're saying helpless baby, but
Speaker 2: I don't know that. I always say helpless they're not. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because they're whiny. Okay, your whiny baby. And then because
Speaker 2: I've been the whiny baby with a entangled in a
Speaker 2: terrible relationship with a bossy helper and I was a
Speaker 2: whiny baby. And then when when I tried to set
Speaker 2: a boundary about it, they turned me into the persecutor.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was so into the drama triangle at the time
Speaker 2: that I could see it clear as day I saw
Speaker 2: it happening. It was unfolding before my eyes, and I
Speaker 2: remember like telling my therapists, I was like, you're not
Speaker 2: gonna believe it. They're gonna believe it. I know for
Speaker 2: a fact that I stayed healthy in my communication and
Speaker 2: I stayed on my side of the street. And the
Speaker 2: response I got back, which you know, the response I
Speaker 2: got back was had flipped me. They immediately went And
Speaker 2: that's why I know you can dance in the triangle.
Speaker 2: It's like they immediately went from helper or rescuer to
Speaker 2: now they're the victim, which I was the victim before.
Speaker 2: I didn't want to be, but I was choosing to
Speaker 2: stay there like that was that was our.
Speaker 1: Thing, you didn't want to be. But also there is
Speaker 1: what we called secondary gains. So a lot of times
Speaker 1: I'm talking to somebody and they're talking about a pattern
Speaker 1: of behavior that they're continue to do and they're like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 4: And I said, okay, well what do you get out
Speaker 4: of it?
Speaker 1: They're like, I don't get anything, And then I have
Speaker 1: to ask again, Okay, but like if you did get something,
Speaker 1: what would it be. Because we don't continuously do something
Speaker 1: over and over and over again unless there's something that
Speaker 1: we get.
Speaker 2: Oh, I for sure had gains from it one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: And also I was avoiding, which is a game for
Speaker 2: what I really Yeah, like I didn't have to really
Speaker 2: speak up. And I can also see in this relationship
Speaker 2: like they would have benefited by speaking up for what
Speaker 2: they needed too, like they were avoiding as well, and
Speaker 2: I hate that for them. We were both doing it well.
Speaker 1: And I'm glad that you're saying all of that because
Speaker 1: the reason I kind of like using the other names
Speaker 1: is because all of these roles are in their own
Speaker 1: right victim.
Speaker 4: Nobody's actually getting their needs met here. Nobody is.
Speaker 1: We're getting a version of our needs met. We're getting
Speaker 1: that secondary gain. So like I might not get if
Speaker 1: my need is to talk about my birthday, I'm struggling
Speaker 1: with an example right here, but my need is to
Speaker 1: talk about my birthday. By me playing the victim role,
Speaker 1: I get to gain the idea that like I'm not
Speaker 1: doing anything wrong, and it's like all your fault and
Speaker 1: by you you didn't do this, But let's say that
Speaker 1: you were, like nobody cares about your birthday, then like
Speaker 1: you don't like you end up having like the blame
Speaker 1: is not on you either. You're like, my hands are clean.
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to hear about it. It's not me, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And like that's kind of me, right,
Speaker 1: I would get my feelings hurt, and then I could
Speaker 1: blame you for being mean to me, and then we
Speaker 1: would have a whole other issue that has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with me talking about my birthday. Right, So let's
Speaker 1: talk about each role individually and then we'll come back.
Speaker 1: And I have a really good example I thought of
Speaker 1: while I was watching a Netflix Christmas movie today.
Speaker 4: So we're gonna come back to that, Okay, mery xmis
Speaker 4: have you watched it?
Speaker 2: I have watched it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so then you're gonna know Okay, actually we might.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quiz you. I'm gonna ask you to place the.
Speaker 2: Roles and this is the one where that Lisha's Silverstone, yes, which.
Speaker 4: Like blast from the past, all right, and Melissa johan
Speaker 4: Hark yes crazy she is her sister or is her
Speaker 4: sister in the movie? Oh that was her sister.
Speaker 2: I thought, so, well, you might not want to quiz
Speaker 2: me because it's paying attention. No, no, no, I'm.
Speaker 1: Pretty sure that was her sister. I might not, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I was doing multiple things anyway. Okay, so
Speaker 1: let's talk about the persecutor first. So the persecutor is
Speaker 1: I think my experience is like they get like the
Speaker 1: bad rap in this triangle, like they're like the mean one.
Speaker 1: They're the ones that are causing the problem essentially, but
Speaker 1: they're also saying, this is not me, this is you.
Speaker 1: So if I'm the persecutor, I'm blaming you for whatever
Speaker 1: the issue is. But if you are not the persecutor,
Speaker 1: you're then blaming me. We're all trying to shift blame.
Speaker 1: So then nobody has to do anything. So if I'm
Speaker 1: blaming you and you're blaming me, then guess what.
Speaker 2: Nothing's getting downe nothing.
Speaker 4: I don't have to change and you don't have to change.
Speaker 1: And I think that all also as a reason why
Speaker 1: a lot of times we have the same kind of
Speaker 1: arguments over and over and over again, because if we
Speaker 1: do not realize that we are stuck in a cycle
Speaker 1: of story, we don't realize that we have agency to
Speaker 1: shift that. And I'm not just going to like like, okay,
Speaker 1: never mind, my story is not real if I don't
Speaker 1: realize that I'm in this cycle.
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah, But that's why I think talking about the triangle
Speaker 2: is so helpful, because I was in the cycle for
Speaker 2: years but didn't know this concept existed.
Speaker 4: Yes, so you're thinking my story, my story, my story.
Speaker 2: I just thought I just thought, well, this is just
Speaker 2: how it is, Like, this is just their relationship, and
Speaker 2: this is our cycle, and this is what we do
Speaker 2: and I don't know how to stop it. But then
Speaker 2: once you realize where you each are and the roles
Speaker 2: that are being played, then you do have the ability
Speaker 2: to stop it. And sometimes it might be too gone
Speaker 2: to where it's like yeah, but that's a different conversation. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just interesting. Like, so I'm excited to hear more
Speaker 2: about what you have to say about it, because I haven't.
Speaker 2: I guess I've probably first learned about it three or
Speaker 2: four years ago.
Speaker 4: You've known about it for longer.
Speaker 2: No, oh, No, I learned about it in my couple's
Speaker 2: therapy with Ben. Maybe I just that feels so long ago,
Speaker 2: and it was when we were separated, we were not
Speaker 2: still together, so it was twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: So the persecutor, they're like the bad cop essentially, they're angry,
Speaker 1: they're very blamey. It's all your fault, the persecutor. Also,
Speaker 1: like if there's ever any like gossip or like trash
Speaker 1: talking or bad talking gossip in the sense of like
Speaker 1: in an ill intentioned way, that's a persecutor role. Like
Speaker 1: that's some of your being a persecutor if you're if
Speaker 1: you're doing that. So if you are with your if
Speaker 1: there is an argument within your friend group and you're
Speaker 1: off gossiping and talking about how SUSICQ did X y
Speaker 1: Z and can you believe it, you're being a persecutor.
Speaker 1: You are blaming another person for an issue or conflict
Speaker 1: that you have versus going and speaking your needs and
Speaker 1: talking that out.
Speaker 2: So I mentioned earlier, since you're talking about being the
Speaker 2: actual persecutor, that I was then put into the persecutor
Speaker 2: role when I set a boundary, but I wasn't actually
Speaker 2: the persecutor. So that like talk about that because I
Speaker 2: have not, I don't know that I've ever talked that
Speaker 2: through like how I I wasn't, but I was made
Speaker 2: to be with the response that I got and the
Speaker 2: the story that was now being told for their laid
Speaker 2: me out as a persecutor. And it's just because I
Speaker 2: shifted the well.
Speaker 4: Because you're fighting over being the victim.
Speaker 2: I messed with the game.
Speaker 1: So that person doesn't want to be the persecutor, so
Speaker 1: they're making you the persecutor. But then you, by saying
Speaker 1: they made me the persecutor, is then making that person
Speaker 1: the persecutor because you guys are both fighting to be
Speaker 1: the victim, even though you wouldn't actually admit that in
Speaker 1: the moment.
Speaker 2: To be clear, I never said to I never responded
Speaker 2: in a way. I'm just sharing that with you. I
Speaker 2: never said you're making me the persecutor. I never know that, But.
Speaker 1: In your head that's happening. Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What the And I'm explaining this. You have to think
Speaker 1: about this in two contexts. You're on this triangle by
Speaker 1: yourself and you're just traveling around, and then also you
Speaker 1: can be on this trigle with other people.
Speaker 4: Okay, so the persecutor is.
Speaker 1: Somebody who is never going to do anything to fix
Speaker 1: or solve the problem, but they are going to criticize
Speaker 1: and find a problem.
Speaker 4: It's not me, it's you. That's what they say.
Speaker 2: That's a persecuter.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, Now nobody wants to be that one for sure.
Speaker 1: That's the one that people are like, ah, that never
Speaker 1: be me.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: We also again we do this to ourselves as well,
Speaker 1: so that's persecuter. Then we have the rescuer. But you
Speaker 1: also usually have like a start gate position, so there's
Speaker 1: usually a role that you gravitate towards and then no
Speaker 1: matter what, once you're on this, you're going to do
Speaker 1: it all. So that's just to take some Like if
Speaker 1: you're listening to this and you're like, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be that way, just take a deep breath and
Speaker 1: release the shame. Because if you do one of these,
Speaker 1: you do all of them, and all of us do them,
Speaker 1: so nobody is alone.
Speaker 2: One ticket to drama town. Please. So you're saying, like
Speaker 2: when we when we hop on the ride, we're that
Speaker 2: we typically oh, start with, we have a station we
Speaker 2: typically go to first.
Speaker 4: It's a start gate. It's like easy for me to
Speaker 4: get on in that.
Speaker 2: I mean, mine's for sure, victim, Okay, I can hop
Speaker 2: on there real quick.
Speaker 1: I was going to say, I feel like you are
Speaker 1: in my experience of you, which you can also this
Speaker 1: could be different in different experiences, but like in my
Speaker 1: experience of you, I feel like it's I've seen you
Speaker 1: easier to jump on in the rescuer.
Speaker 2: Well, that's apparent because you said that earlier about me,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, really, tell me more.
Speaker 4: I just see you in that context.
Speaker 1: But also like maybe you were already on the triangle
Speaker 1: and I just see you in that rescue position more.
Speaker 4: That makes sense. I get on this triangle usually. Well,
Speaker 4: now that I'm.
Speaker 1: Like revisiting this, I used to always say, like it's
Speaker 1: easy for me to get on as the rescuer. I
Speaker 1: think I honestly can get on as the persecutor pretty easily.
Speaker 2: No comments, I don't think. I don't. I think from
Speaker 2: stories that you tell me, I love to blame somebody.
Speaker 4: I see that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but not because I've experienced it from you.
Speaker 4: Okay, and I love to blame somebody, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, you don't like being told what to do?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Ever, yeah, so it's like, can you believe this?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but then you like come back around, You're rational.
Speaker 4: It's just what I'd like to get on that trend
Speaker 4: for a little bit. Yeah, So back to the rescuer.
Speaker 4: The rescuer plays like the good cop to the persecutor's
Speaker 4: bad cop. They give codependent vibes.
Speaker 2: Oh that's what you thought that was me. I didn't
Speaker 2: say I do sometimes to give codependent vibes.
Speaker 4: And they end up playing like a martyr role.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've been a martyr too.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So they forego all of their needs to solve somebody
Speaker 1: else's needs.
Speaker 4: Is that okay, so you're relating.
Speaker 2: Uh, this was more so in my marriage. Uh, at
Speaker 2: the end of it. And I won't ever forget what
Speaker 2: one of my therapists said to me, Like I I
Speaker 2: was like, I can't, I can't do that, like I,
Speaker 2: I will just stay in this forever. And then she
Speaker 2: said to me, oh, you sweet martyr. And I remember
Speaker 2: I was pacing in my backyard at my other house,
Speaker 2: like I remember exactly, and she has an accent and
Speaker 2: she goes, oh you sweet Mata, and I was like, huh,
Speaker 2: it almost just clicked. It clicked, and I was like,
Speaker 2: and that's what I either one of us would have
Speaker 2: been doing in that situation. I mean been too. And
Speaker 2: this isn't just all specific too. My marriage. There was
Speaker 2: a lot of things happening, but I realized like, oh wow, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: I need to there's a lot to make an actual
Speaker 2: choice for myself, not just for somebody.
Speaker 1: Else, which I was gonna say, like, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of guilt involved in the rescuer and you use that
Speaker 1: on yourself, like I feel guilty for choosing myself. The
Speaker 1: problem is we cannot spend our lives fixing other people's problems,
Speaker 1: and a lot of times when we're doing this, that
Speaker 1: other person doesn't really want their problem to be fixed
Speaker 1: because if you give them a real solution, then that
Speaker 1: victim has to actually do something, and we haven't gotten
Speaker 1: exactly to the victim, but the victim doesn't actually.
Speaker 4: Want to do anything.
Speaker 1: They want to play the victim because if I am
Speaker 1: the victim, there's nothing I can do. Sorry, But if
Speaker 1: you give them a solution that's debunked, so they'll find
Speaker 1: an excuse. So then you'll hustle or then you'll become
Speaker 1: the persecutor because you're like, I gave you a solution,
Speaker 1: and duh duh, du du don this is your fault
Speaker 1: and you're here because of blah blah blah. So not
Speaker 1: that you would say it like that, but that's how
Speaker 1: you can switch really easy. And I can I get that,
Speaker 1: like if I'm working really hard to help you in
Speaker 1: some way and you keep giving me excuse out of
Speaker 1: excuse after excuse after excuse, I'm going to get exhausted
Speaker 1: and frustrated and angry and resentful, and then i might
Speaker 1: lash out at you, and then I'm going to blame
Speaker 1: you for me feeling like this, even though I could
Speaker 1: just be like, okay, you don't want my help, bye bye.
Speaker 1: But that's really hard because of the stories we have
Speaker 1: around your responsibility, maybe even to this person or the
Speaker 1: situation or the world. So rescuer is a tough role
Speaker 1: because you really feel like you are doing the right thing,
Speaker 1: but you're not helping, and you're definitely not helping yourself.
Speaker 1: I love that she called you a sweet martyr.
Speaker 2: Oh you sweet Mata, and you're like, wait what, Okay,
Speaker 2: it's weird. It's interesting right when I thought back to
Speaker 2: that story, which I mean, I've told it before, but
Speaker 2: that was a few years ago for sure, and I'm
Speaker 2: instantly transported to like talking on the phone, pacing in
Speaker 2: my backyard. Ye, that exact conversation with her. And there's
Speaker 2: not many times I can remember like exactly where I
Speaker 2: was and what I was doing when I had a
Speaker 2: specific conversation you.
Speaker 4: Know well, and also like this is because again we're
Speaker 4: all fighting to be the victim.
Speaker 1: It's some regard. When you're in that space, you also
Speaker 1: can flip. You can flip to the persecutor. You also
Speaker 1: can flip to be the victim of like I've tried
Speaker 1: everything and nothing works, and then you become this helpless
Speaker 1: baby or the whiny baby as you would say, when
Speaker 1: really there's a solution but you just don't want to
Speaker 1: take it.
Speaker 4: Okay, So then we have the victim. And when you
Speaker 4: hear that word victim again, victim consciousness, I'm not talking
Speaker 4: about actual victims. What kind of comes to mind for you? Like,
Speaker 4: what feelings do you get when you think about the victim?
Speaker 4: What things pop into your head? Does your body react?
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I can only speak to a personal experience
Speaker 2: where I feel like, because you have to understand when
Speaker 2: I had the Drama Triangle revelation, victim mode was definitely
Speaker 2: where I was dancing a lot. So my brain keeps
Speaker 2: going to this example, so I'm just gonna roll with it.
Speaker 2: I it was definitely in a role. You're in a role,
Speaker 2: like it was part of the dynamic. So we're playing
Speaker 2: a part. Yes, like it would be very laying it
Speaker 2: all out, like all the things that are going on,
Speaker 2: like sort of trauma dumping in a way, but taking
Speaker 2: up a lot of that space. But I thought that's
Speaker 2: what I needed to do for and then there would
Speaker 2: be like rescuing that would happen, and then that was
Speaker 2: that that you know so much, So like I wasn't
Speaker 2: able to show up for that person and really any
Speaker 2: other way, even when I kept trying, like I would try,
Speaker 2: or I would think I'd be trying, but that wasn't
Speaker 2: my role. So I don't even think they thought that's
Speaker 2: what I wanted, but deep down I did. And sometimes
Speaker 2: I would hang up the phone. I'd be like, why
Speaker 2: did I just talk about myself for twenty minutes and
Speaker 2: all that was going on, because there was a lot happening,
Speaker 2: But I just would is that making sense of? Like
Speaker 2: that was the victim role for me, of laying it
Speaker 2: all out, of all the things, and then there was
Speaker 2: some swooping in to help so that fixed the situation
Speaker 2: or make it better. And I don't know that I
Speaker 2: necessarily needed that. I wasn't looking, but it was just.
Speaker 4: But what were you looking for?
Speaker 2: Connection.
Speaker 1: So you named a story in there, like in order
Speaker 1: to be connected to this person, I had to be
Speaker 1: this little baby bird who needed somebody to fix them
Speaker 1: or always I'm making the stuff up, but like always
Speaker 1: had a problem that needed to be talked out. I
Speaker 1: have to do this in order to have connection in life.
Speaker 2: Like it wasn't fun for me, Like I am aware
Speaker 2: of it. You have it thought I wasn't enjoying it either,
Speaker 2: Like it was very perplexing to me. So then it
Speaker 2: was also exhausting, and I'm sure they were exhausted too,
Speaker 2: and they weren't getting needs met. And so you're right.
Speaker 2: It's like if you have the awareness, then you can
Speaker 2: we could have fixed it maybe a long time ago,
Speaker 2: but then it got to where we couldn't fix it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you're having this story around like in
Speaker 1: order to be connected to this person, I have to
Speaker 1: play this role.
Speaker 4: It doesn't feel very good, but you were still like
Speaker 4: the story.
Speaker 1: That you created around the like the facts of what
Speaker 1: we're going on in your life was below the line
Speaker 1: example versus just being able to own this or I've
Speaker 1: created this story. It doesn't have to be this way.
Speaker 1: What would happen if I said to this person. I'm
Speaker 1: feeling stuck and this relationship is really important to me. Therefore,
Speaker 1: I think I need X, Y Z and name something.
Speaker 1: Who knows it's We don't know what would have happened,
Speaker 1: but it would have given you an opportunity to get
Speaker 1: off of this triangle, to get out of this dance
Speaker 1: where you even if that relationship didn't end up being
Speaker 1: what you wanted it to be, you didn't have to
Speaker 1: keep playing that game anymore.
Speaker 2: So, Yeah, there's a lot I learned in my that
Speaker 2: couple's therapy that just helped in a lot of areas
Speaker 2: in my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so the victim is it's I mean, they're
Speaker 1: all interesting roles because essentially we don't want to be
Speaker 1: any of them, but like the victim is the one
Speaker 1: that we all are, Like I don't want to be that,
Speaker 1: but you really, subconsciously really are wanting to be you know.
Speaker 2: So you know the part of me that gets real defensive,
Speaker 2: isn't that my victim mode?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So see, well it depends.
Speaker 1: The defensiveness can also be like persecutor, like it's not
Speaker 1: my fault, it's your fault because it's.
Speaker 2: I don't know that my defensiveness is.
Speaker 1: Well your defensiveness. I think in general, defensiveness could be
Speaker 1: different things.
Speaker 2: My defensiveness is like we use that dow water example too,
Speaker 2: Like I wasn't really saying like, it's not my fault,
Speaker 2: but she was like, would you would you like some
Speaker 2: water for your dog. Now we're going back a few months.
Speaker 2: People don't even know this story because that's a totally
Speaker 2: different episode, but a woman offered water to my dog.
Speaker 2: But I was embarrassed and thought she was like judging
Speaker 2: me for having my dog out on hot day, so
Speaker 2: I wouldn't accept the water. She walked away and I
Speaker 2: was with my boyfriend and I was just like, oh,
Speaker 2: she's probably like, you idiot, why'd you bring your dog?
Speaker 2: And he's like, she didn't say that, she just offered
Speaker 2: you water. Like so I wasn't saying it's not your
Speaker 2: fault or it's not my fault, it's your fault. Like
Speaker 2: my defensiveness wasn't that I was just getting defensive of
Speaker 2: like the people I get defensive that I'm being judged.
Speaker 4: Nobody was judging you exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think defensiveness can show up in different ways depending
Speaker 1: on Yeah, like how it's who you are and how
Speaker 1: it's coming up in that example. Defensiveness in general doesn't
Speaker 1: just mean this, but good callback shout out, shout out.
Speaker 2: Should a lady who tried to should To this day,
Speaker 2: I will say, I should have taken the water. I'm sorry, Kara.
Speaker 2: Well now you have learned, so don't get on this
Speaker 2: triangle with yourself.
Speaker 4: Give yourself grace. So these are all the roles.
Speaker 2: Okay, before I haven't confused anybody.
Speaker 1: Well, this is something that like is so simple that
Speaker 1: it's so confusing, if that makes any sense at all.
Speaker 1: And it's confusing because we don't like when we think
Speaker 1: about this, then we're doing the like dance and we're
Speaker 1: making all these connections. So if you like would write
Speaker 1: it out, it would make perfect sense. I did this,
Speaker 1: then this happened. Then I did this, then this happened,
Speaker 1: and you would be able to see it very clearly.
Speaker 2: And I would say, if you're just now taking this
Speaker 2: in and you realize it in a relationship, like I
Speaker 2: don't know that right away, I would go to the
Speaker 2: person and be like, we're in a drama triangle. You're
Speaker 2: the persecutor and I'm the rescuer. You know, I'm the
Speaker 2: helper and you're mean, like or you know, like just
Speaker 2: taking like it, talking about it in a thoughtful way
Speaker 2: of like, hey, I just started thinking about I listened
Speaker 2: to this podcast. I just started thinking about this, and
Speaker 2: I'm just reflecting upon some of our latest interactions and like,
Speaker 2: what are what's your experience with it, because here's what
Speaker 2: I am and I would I feel like we might
Speaker 2: be dancing a little and I don't. I want to
Speaker 2: see if you feel the same way and that way
Speaker 2: it's inviting them into it and not that like you've
Speaker 2: listened to this podcast and come to all these conclusions
Speaker 2: and now you know everything, or if you are involved
Speaker 2: in therapy, like take this to your therapist and see
Speaker 2: like if like you said, taking down the notes, like
Speaker 2: that's what I had many many many sessions after my
Speaker 2: couple's therapy with Ben, with my personal therapist about my
Speaker 2: roles and how I was showing up. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: tried to carefully talk through it before, like.
Speaker 1: You just well, and you don't have to because you're
Speaker 1: going to notice this pattern with people that you don't
Speaker 1: have intimate relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I don't. I'm so glad you
Speaker 2: said that. I'm so glad you said that because I
Speaker 2: made it like you should talk to people about it.
Speaker 2: But to clarify, there are so many people I am
Speaker 2: and have been in dances with and they don't know, right, So, yeah,
Speaker 2: they may know, and maybe they're not saying anything. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but like I know that I know, but it's not
Speaker 2: worth a conversation.
Speaker 1: Well, there's ways to kind of handle this without having
Speaker 1: to have that conversation. Now, I will say, like, if
Speaker 1: you have a partner or a really close friend, or
Speaker 1: you're really you have a really close relationship with a
Speaker 1: boss or something like that, and it feels safe and
Speaker 1: natural to talk about this thing, that talk about it,
Speaker 1: because I think there's so much you can learn from
Speaker 1: having two people communicating about it, and there are ways
Speaker 1: that you can take all.
Speaker 4: Of this drama triangle.
Speaker 1: Really the purpose of it is to show you that
Speaker 1: you can take ownership of your own life and you
Speaker 1: can ask for your needs to be met, because once
Speaker 1: you get I don't know if I said this, but
Speaker 1: the reason a lot of people are fighting to be
Speaker 1: the victim is because the victim is the one that
Speaker 1: gets their needs met without asking for them to be met.
Speaker 1: The reason a lot of people are fighting to be
Speaker 1: the victim is because the victim is the one that
Speaker 1: gets their needs.
Speaker 4: Met without asking for them to be met.
Speaker 1: So like, duh, I want to be that again, these
Speaker 1: all have versions of victimness in them.
Speaker 2: Question, can the rescuer be getting certain needs met if
Speaker 2: they have a I want to be involved and fix everything?
Speaker 4: Yes, but mentality they can.
Speaker 1: And also remember that rescuer is always going to end
Speaker 1: up as the victim no matter I don't know if
Speaker 1: I said this either. No matter what you start as,
Speaker 1: you're going to end up as the victim if you
Speaker 1: don't get off of this triangle. Okay, at some point
Speaker 1: now that will shift again, but like you're going to
Speaker 1: do that. But yeah, I think when you're talking about
Speaker 1: rescuing and somebody being like a martyr, there is something
Speaker 1: that's the secondary gang we get right, so or this
Speaker 1: like fulfillment.
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of people that love, like if.
Speaker 1: You're a two like a helper, But remember the when
Speaker 1: you're the rescuer and you're helping the victim, the victim
Speaker 1: doesn't actually want help, right, so the fulfillment doesn't usually come,
Speaker 1: and that's why you then move.
Speaker 2: Then you get exhausted, and then that's and then you
Speaker 2: start giving the silent treatment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I started speaking both.
Speaker 2: That's what happened to me.
Speaker 4: So I also probably do that too. I love a
Speaker 4: good silent treatment.
Speaker 1: So I was, well, I was talking about you. So
Speaker 1: there's a couple of ways to get off of this triangle.
Speaker 1: And is there Before I go into that, Oh no,
Speaker 1: before I go into that, let's talk about Mary x meus.
Speaker 4: That's the name of the movie, right, Mary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, because it's she's having Christmas with her ex.
Speaker 1: Okay, So spoiler alert, if you're waiting to watch this
Speaker 1: movie that you're gonna have no idea how it ends
Speaker 1: because it's very different than every other Christmas holiday movie.
Speaker 1: Then skip forward sixty seconds.
Speaker 2: No, that was sarcasm yea too. Also, it's been out
Speaker 2: for a few weeks on Netflix, so I.
Speaker 4: Thought it was brand new. I also thought maybe it
Speaker 4: was like an older.
Speaker 2: Movieh it was one of the first releases, so maybe
Speaker 2: two weeks. Well, by the time this airs.
Speaker 1: If you haven't watched it yet, that's we can't do
Speaker 1: anything about that. So thinking about that movie, do you
Speaker 1: have any idea of why I would bring that up?
Speaker 1: Think about the two main characters, the husband and the
Speaker 1: ex husband ex wife.
Speaker 2: Will you learn at some point that she put off
Speaker 2: some of her dreams and that she wanted to go
Speaker 2: to Boston or something, and that like she seemed like
Speaker 2: a rescue.
Speaker 4: Yes, so it's this couple.
Speaker 1: There's a doctor and then she was I think architect
Speaker 1: or something in that realm there're she had these big
Speaker 1: dreams to have this big career, so she moved with
Speaker 1: her husband to the small town. She gave up her
Speaker 1: dreams to build a life with this man, and then
Speaker 1: he ended up being kind of addicted to his job
Speaker 1: and would miss out a lot of stuff. So they
Speaker 1: end up getting divorced. And then you find throughout the
Speaker 1: movie that like neither of them really wanted to get divorced.
Speaker 1: They both were still in love with each other, but
Speaker 1: she was resentful of him because she didn't speak what
Speaker 1: she really needed, and he was resentful of her because
Speaker 1: she was doing things that bothered him.
Speaker 4: But he never really shared any of that.
Speaker 1: And actually, I can't spoil this movie because I'm only
Speaker 1: halfway through.
Speaker 2: Oh, so you don't even know if I sure know
Speaker 2: what happens.
Speaker 4: But I have a feeling I know what happens.
Speaker 1: And that's a perfect example of if she would have
Speaker 1: actually said, hey, I need you to like be home
Speaker 1: more and I want to go back to work, and
Speaker 1: is there a way we can figure this out? Who knows,
Speaker 1: they could have stayed together in the end, and maybe
Speaker 1: they maybe they ended up doing that. And if he
Speaker 1: would have said, hey, there's a couple of things that
Speaker 1: you do at home that make me not want to
Speaker 1: come home and that's why I'm working more, she could
Speaker 1: have taken a look in the mirror and looked at
Speaker 1: what she was doing and say, oh, I can make
Speaker 1: some concessions here so we can both get our needs met.
Speaker 1: But they never had that conversation, so they just got
Speaker 1: divorced and then they were resentful of each other and
Speaker 1: that's a perfect and she blamed him and he blamed her,
Speaker 1: and really it was they were both doing things.
Speaker 2: Have you watched all her fault on Peacock?
Speaker 4: No, okay, I haven't, because I'll Peacock.
Speaker 2: I've started it and this isn't going to be spoiling anything.
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to tell you which couple I'm
Speaker 2: talking about. But I just watched a scene where a
Speaker 2: husband and there's multiple husbands in the show. She works
Speaker 2: and he works when she is at home and with
Speaker 2: the kids and you know, doing laundry and cooking, taking
Speaker 2: care of the kids. She's always on the clock. Whenever
Speaker 2: she's out doing something and he's home with the kids,
Speaker 2: he's like, when are you back? Like when am I done?
Speaker 2: And I just I was just thinking of relationships and
Speaker 2: dynamic and how awful that would be with someone. And
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, this is reality for some
Speaker 2: people that the wife feels like she's always on, like
Speaker 2: she never when she's home with the kids. She doesn't
Speaker 2: call the husband and say when am I off so
Speaker 2: I can go do something else. And it was interesting because.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and is there is she playing that role of
Speaker 1: the rescuer and she's well.
Speaker 2: Care definitely paused and was like took a deep breath
Speaker 2: and I didn't really know where she was going to
Speaker 2: go with it, and you could tell she just didn't
Speaker 2: want the conversation or confrontation at the time, and she
Speaker 2: was like, you know what, You're right. He's like, well,
Speaker 2: you knew when you married me that I have to
Speaker 2: have my me time and that I have to go
Speaker 2: do my things, and that I'm better when I've got,
Speaker 2: you know, time with my friends and this and that,
Speaker 2: and so she took a deep breath and she was like,
Speaker 2: you're right. I should have told you that I had
Speaker 2: this going on. I'll be home as soon as I can,
Speaker 2: and you know, marriages work and we will get through this.
Speaker 2: And then she hung up, and I'm like, Dakota Fanning, Oh,
Speaker 2: is that is that her? I just said whose role
Speaker 2: it was? But that's not giving anything. You're not giving
Speaker 2: anything away. I just said I was going to say
Speaker 2: which couple it was, but I'm not giving anything away.
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with anything. They could delete
Speaker 2: that scene and the show would be fine.
Speaker 4: We believe you, Thank you. I didn't know she was
Speaker 4: in it. I knew it was the girl from Succession.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Shiv.
Speaker 4: I never watched that show. I couldn't get into it.
Speaker 2: What I love Succession, not.
Speaker 4: Get into it.
Speaker 1: I watched three episodes and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: boring snooze. I know I'm an outlier, okay, but I
Speaker 1: spoke my needs to Patrick and I said I can't
Speaker 1: do another one, okay, and he watched it on his own. Okay,
Speaker 1: So how to get off of this triangle? So I'm
Speaker 1: going to give you options here. But my first option
Speaker 1: is four parts. Notice set you're on it. This is
Speaker 1: when you're on it with somebody else. Notice that you're
Speaker 1: on it. Number one hardest part. You might need some
Speaker 1: feedback or after you kind of if you are reevaluating
Speaker 1: kind of your behaviors, you can you know, draw some
Speaker 1: diagrams and figure that out. Two, you need to lower
Speaker 1: your expectations for other people. When I say that what
Speaker 1: comes up, you kind of made a face where you like,
Speaker 1: dang it or that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I didn't make a face anything. Really, I didn't think, oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like I'm like, okay, check saying it well, because
Speaker 1: most people when they hear that, they're like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. I don't want to lower my
Speaker 1: expectations for people. I want people to rise to the occasion.
Speaker 2: Oh no, No, I think that I have plenty of
Speaker 2: practice of like sometimes just not having oh.
Speaker 4: Any like redunis quite a few times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think expectations or future resentment at times.
Speaker 2: So not that I don't have standards for things in
Speaker 2: life or expectations for certain things. But then maybe it's
Speaker 2: my co parenting. Like no, I think that we have
Speaker 2: to ben and I started having tons of expectations in
Speaker 2: certain ways. Like that's where we had a little mantra
Speaker 2: of like, okay, expectations or future resentments. So instead of
Speaker 2: just expecting or assuming, like, we're gonna ask and we're
Speaker 2: gonna talk about it.
Speaker 1: And also we have to realize that we are not
Speaker 1: everybody else, and so the things that make sense in
Speaker 1: our head and the things that like seem best case
Speaker 1: scenario in our head that work in our head aren't
Speaker 1: the things that work in everybody else's heads because of
Speaker 1: the stories that we have versus the stories other people have.
Speaker 1: So lowering expectations isn't like, Okay, go marry somebody you hate,
Speaker 1: Like that's not what we're talking about. We're The point
Speaker 1: of this is when I can lower expectations and not
Speaker 1: expect this for people to fall in line with how
Speaker 1: I want them to act all the time, I then
Speaker 1: can start to appreciate the things about them that I
Speaker 1: couldn't see before because I was so resentful. So if
Speaker 1: I know somebody is really bad, I'm gonna use me
Speaker 1: as an example. I'm really bad at remembering your birthday
Speaker 1: the date, I know the month, and I always end
Speaker 1: up doing something, but I can't seem to get that
Speaker 1: date right, seventeenth, nineteenth, It's March eighteenth.
Speaker 2: To be clear. To be clear, Cat's birthday is December fourth, Okay,
Speaker 2: but that has come and gone. Okay, I'm not good.
Speaker 2: It is not just sad.
Speaker 4: I'm not good at remembering.
Speaker 2: And that's okay. Like I don't hold I don't have
Speaker 2: an expectation of you to I know where you stand
Speaker 2: and that you care about me and that you celebrate
Speaker 2: me like that's not also too, birthdays have been hard
Speaker 2: for me. I have Shannon, I have a calendar, Like
Speaker 2: there's things in the last five years that I have
Speaker 2: implemented in my life that helped me. But before that,
Speaker 2: before calendar, and then like have and even when it
Speaker 2: comes to the calendar, like having like my heighty eat
Speaker 2: to sit there and enter everybody's birthday reoccurring year after year.
Speaker 2: That's something that I will give Shannon credit for in
Speaker 2: that had I needed help organizing my life because of
Speaker 2: my We both have ADHD. Maybe that's why I can
Speaker 2: empathize with you and I give grace because I have
Speaker 2: been that person and it feels horrible forgetting horrible, and
Speaker 2: I have been on the receiving end of no grace
Speaker 2: with it at all, like just anger, disappointment valid, valid,
Speaker 2: But I know my heart and I'm like, gosh, you
Speaker 2: I really do care about this person. I can't believe
Speaker 2: that that slipped my mind. And that's probably why I
Speaker 2: don't take it out on you, like I get it.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna get wrapped up.
Speaker 1: You're not going to make me that prosecutor or a villain. No,
Speaker 1: you're not getting on the triangle with me. No. And
Speaker 1: another example that people might relate a little bit more too,
Speaker 1: is like love languages. So if you're in a relationship
Speaker 1: where like somebody in your family they have a different
Speaker 1: love language than you, Like if somebody is really bad
Speaker 1: with words, but they are a good gift giver.
Speaker 4: If you don't lower your spectations, you're.
Speaker 1: Like, well, I'm an affirmation person and you have to
Speaker 1: tell me, xyz, you will get on this triangle every
Speaker 1: single time you talk to them, because you won't be
Speaker 1: able to receive their love. But if I can lower
Speaker 1: expectations in the sense in okay, I'm going to meet
Speaker 1: you with where you are and this is how you
Speaker 1: show affection and love is gift giving. I can receive
Speaker 1: that and I can actually appreciate so many things about you.
Speaker 1: Now that I'm not blinded by all this resentment, that
Speaker 1: might fit a little bit more help.
Speaker 4: Okay, so you have noticed that you're on it.
Speaker 1: You're lowering your expectations. Then you're creating boundaries. So at
Speaker 1: the same time, where like I am learning expectations and
Speaker 1: able to see all this stuff, I also might want
Speaker 1: to protect myself. So I need to create bound and
Speaker 1: these are internal boundaries. You don't have to tell the
Speaker 1: people that you have these boundaries. So if I'm a
Speaker 1: words of affirmation person and I really need to hear,
Speaker 1: I go to this person when I'm struggling or I'm sad,
Speaker 1: or I need reassurance, or I just need to be validated,
Speaker 1: but they don't know how to do that. I need
Speaker 1: to create an internal boundary for myself. This is not
Speaker 1: who I go to for that. I might go to
Speaker 1: them for celebration in other areas, or I might go
Speaker 1: to them if I need help picking out a gift
Speaker 1: for somebody or something like that. There are other things
Speaker 1: that I can do and go to them. And I
Speaker 1: can see that more clearly now that I'm not blinded
Speaker 1: by this resentment over here.
Speaker 4: But I have to be smart if it's.
Speaker 1: That whole idea of don't go to the hardware store
Speaker 1: looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does
Speaker 1: not have bread, right, I can't keep asking them for it,
Speaker 1: because then that's my fault.
Speaker 4: So I need to create a boundary.
Speaker 1: And when I'm hungry and I want a loaf of bread,
Speaker 1: I can't walk into the hardware store.
Speaker 2: You gotta go to the grocery.
Speaker 1: You got to go to the grocery store. And that grocery
Speaker 1: store might be a different person. And because of all that,
Speaker 1: because that's a lot of work, noticing you're on it,
Speaker 1: and like acknowledging our shortcomings, lowering expectations, and creating boundaries
Speaker 1: is a lot of work. I say it really simply.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of work, because that's.
Speaker 4: A lot of work. The fourth thing is self care.
Speaker 1: Simple, just like, be kind to yourself, give yourself grace,
Speaker 1: soothe yourself in some way. I can say this to
Speaker 1: you really simply. But the act of learning expectations and
Speaker 1: cutting myself off from going to somebody and asking for
Speaker 1: something that I've really wanted my whole life, that's hard
Speaker 1: work emotionally, and that's going to take a toll on us,
Speaker 1: so I need to then care for myself. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: if you're on this trangle with somebody else.
Speaker 4: Else.
Speaker 1: If you're on the tragle with yourself, it's a little
Speaker 1: bit more simple, and the solution is really to notice
Speaker 1: you're on it and to reevaluate the stories we're making
Speaker 1: out of the context and look for some solutions that
Speaker 1: might be above the line, which is very similar to
Speaker 1: that question that we come back to very often.
Speaker 4: What does this make possible? Or what big thing is
Speaker 4: this preparing me for?
Speaker 2: Those?
Speaker 4: Are those two.
Speaker 1: Questions are above the line questions that can help us
Speaker 1: reframe a fact.
Speaker 2: What in general is above the li? What? What versus why?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yes, what versus why? It's like the you know,
Speaker 2: I used example of Cat saying that when we missed
Speaker 2: the exit, and she's like, this is keeping us from
Speaker 2: an accident. There's the burnt toast. Is it called the
Speaker 2: burnt toast theory or the burnt toast?
Speaker 4: I don't know. You're teaching me something.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know. It just popped into my head. Well,
Speaker 2: I feel like maybe we'll end on this note. I
Speaker 2: feel like maybe it's something like you burnt your toast.
Speaker 6: And it's just workshopping this right now, and it delayed
Speaker 6: your morning, you know, but like not why did I
Speaker 6: burn my toast?
Speaker 2: Maybe like more of like what is this protecting me from?
Speaker 2: Like my burn? The burnt toast.
Speaker 4: Is giving me late?
Speaker 2: So then maybe I missed. I don't get around thing
Speaker 2: like that, like it's the burnt I thought it was
Speaker 2: a whole thing. Sorry, I thought you might know what
Speaker 2: it is, because like literally it's just like burnt toast
Speaker 2: just pop into my head. Isn't that weird? Let me
Speaker 2: look it up, burnt toast, bury toast theory. Let me
Speaker 2: see if it's like actually a thing. It's probably not. Brain,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be so mad at you. The burnt toast
Speaker 2: theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences
Speaker 2: like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes. My brain
Speaker 2: did not do me dirty.
Speaker 4: Yeah you knew it.
Speaker 2: I got there. Okay, thank you, brain, You are awesome, wonderful.
Speaker 2: But like the whole time you're talking, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: I was picturing my toaster and burnt toast, like I
Speaker 2: don't And then I was like, I think there's a
Speaker 2: burnt toast theory, and then I just said it without
Speaker 2: really knowing You're.
Speaker 4: Hoping that I could pick that up.
Speaker 2: And you'd be like, oh, yes, Let'm talking about the
Speaker 2: burnt toast theery. Maybe I'm also thinking about it because
Speaker 2: you're like, can't get a loaf of bread at the
Speaker 2: hardware store?
Speaker 4: Did I say it like that?
Speaker 2: No? But I kind of like it. I kind of
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think that's you know, yeah, Well that's a
Speaker 4: drama triangle or the Cartman triangle as some people call it.
Speaker 1: And hopefully it's helpful, especially around this time of year,
Speaker 1: and it can keep your relationship safe and help you
Speaker 1: and get your needs met.
Speaker 2: All right, Kat, hope you had a great birthday. Hope
Speaker 2: you had the birthday.
Speaker 4: He needed to have.
Speaker 2: Thanks right, okay, and we hope y'all have the day.
Speaker 4: You need to have.
Speaker 1: Bye.
Speaker 5: Bye,