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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. When it comes to vehicles,

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Speaker 1: we think about them as a means to transport us

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Speaker 1: to work, to go by our daily life, to convey

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Speaker 1: us from one spot to another during good times and

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Speaker 1: bad times. Do you ever really think about a vehicle

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Speaker 1: being used as a weapon. I'm not just talking about

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Speaker 1: a vehicle being used to run somebody over. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about a vehicle being used to heat somebody up to

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Speaker 1: the point where they actually die. Today we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: about the death of Cooper Harris. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and this his body bags back with me again today

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Speaker 1: is my good friend Jackie Howard, Executive producer of Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, Well, can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about Cooper Harris show on June First impressions are that

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Speaker 1: Justin Ross Harris is a loving parent who made a

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Speaker 1: terrible mistake. His son, Cooper, just twenty two months old,

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Speaker 1: was to be dropped off added daycare. His dad took

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Speaker 1: him to breakfast at Chick fil A before intending to

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Speaker 1: drop Cooper off at the daycare, which was right down

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Speaker 1: the road from where Justin Ross Harris worked. But in

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Speaker 1: that distance of a mile between the Chick fil A

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Speaker 1: and where he should have turned to go to the daycare.

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Speaker 1: Justin Ross Harris says he forgot that he had his son.

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Speaker 1: He parked his vehicle and went into work for the day.

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Speaker 1: During the doing hours of June eighteenth, Cooper, twenty two

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Speaker 1: month old Cooper died of heat stroke. Now Harris told

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Speaker 1: police that he realized his mistake when he was driving

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Speaker 1: away from work after getting back in the car at

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Speaker 1: the end of a long, hot day to go home.

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Speaker 1: That is when he noticed his son was dead in

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Speaker 1: the car. He immediately pulled over into a parking lot

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Speaker 1: called N one. What was found during the investigation is

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Speaker 1: that Justin Ross Harris was a serial womanizer. He was

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Speaker 1: in the midst of several extramarital affairs. Harris had been

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Speaker 1: involved with multiple women and had been sending explicit sexual messages, sexting,

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Speaker 1: some with nude photos with at least six different females.

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Speaker 1: In fact, some of them were underage girls. It was

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Speaker 1: also found that he was viewing an Internet page called

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Speaker 1: child Free and reading articles on how to survive in prison,

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Speaker 1: looking up how hot a car needed to be to

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Speaker 1: kill a child, looking up what it would be like

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Speaker 1: to live an unencumbered life, Joe. So what we find

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Speaker 1: out when the autopsy is completed is that Cooper Harris

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Speaker 1: died of heat stroke after being left in this car

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Speaker 1: where temperatures topped easily one degrees. So let's start there, Joe.

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Speaker 1: What is heat stroke? Heat stroke itself in the medical

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Speaker 1: communities referred to as hyperthermia hyper meaning high temperature. And

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Speaker 1: then of course we can have hypothermia, you know, if

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Speaker 1: people are exposed to cold, cold weather for a protracted

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Speaker 1: period of time. But in this particular case, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about this young boy, uh, this this toddler, this baby

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Speaker 1: essentially that was strapped into this car seat uh and

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Speaker 1: left in in this hot car for a protracted period

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Speaker 1: of time and I think one estimate that at one

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Speaker 1: point in time was up to seven and a half

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Speaker 1: hours perhaps that he was there. And what what happens

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Speaker 1: with hyperthermia? It's it's a diagnosis, it's not you know,

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Speaker 1: when we think about things that we do in forensic

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Speaker 1: pathology and in medical legal death investigation, we think about trauma,

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Speaker 1: don't we We think about things like bludgeoning and strangulation

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Speaker 1: and gunshots and knife wounds and all those sorts of things,

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Speaker 1: and relatively speaking, those are kind of easy diagnoses to make.

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Speaker 1: But with hyperthermia, this is this is a diagnosis of

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Speaker 1: what's referred to a diagnosis by exclusion, So you have

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Speaker 1: to have a lot of circumstantial evidence that's coming into

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Speaker 1: the m E, the forensic pathologists to make this determination.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, when the m E made

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Speaker 1: the diagnosis of hyperthermia, he didn't list a manner of

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Speaker 1: death initially. And you know, as fans on bodybags have learned,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's five manners of death, you know, the

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Speaker 1: homicide and suicide, undetermined, and natural and accidental. In this case,

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Speaker 1: initially the manner of death was left undetermined. And what

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Speaker 1: that says is that the doctor knew, based upon just

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Speaker 1: the information that was coming in, that this was going

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Speaker 1: to be a heat related death. He just didn't know

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Speaker 1: how to qualify. And it took more information coming in

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Speaker 1: from the police, that circumstantial information to kind of put

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Speaker 1: all of the pieces together. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: the EMMY listed this as a homicide. Now that's what

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Speaker 1: left all of us, I think, kind of scratching our

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Speaker 1: heads and saying, well, if this is a homicide. If

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Speaker 1: this is a homicide, then you have this child that

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Speaker 1: is a lockdown inside of this vehicle, Jackie. That means

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Speaker 1: that you have intent, that his dad had specific intent

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Speaker 1: to literally use the interior of this vehicle, the heated

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Speaker 1: interior of this vehicle, as a means to bring about

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Speaker 1: his son's death. And that requires thought, doesn't it It

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Speaker 1: requires thought that you would have to think something like

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Speaker 1: this out. It does. And we know that temperatures that

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Speaker 1: day reached ninety two degrees and experts are saying that

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Speaker 1: inside the car the temperature was close to a hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty five degrees. So let's talk specifically about what

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Speaker 1: heat stroke is going to do to a body. I

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Speaker 1: want everybody in the sound of my voice to just

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Speaker 1: imagine this for a second. Think about the summertime, and

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Speaker 1: you go out to your car. Maybe it's in a

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Speaker 1: parking lot after you've been shopping. Maybe it's outside of

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Speaker 1: your home, cars locked up. You go to get out

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Speaker 1: there in the middle of the day, you unlocked the

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Speaker 1: card and you get in. You ever grab the steering wheel,

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Speaker 1: and steering wheel will almost sizzle the palms of your hands,

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Speaker 1: that's how hot it is. Until you can equalize the

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Speaker 1: temperature by moving down the road with your windows down,

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Speaker 1: perhaps turning on the air let. The air kind of

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Speaker 1: catch up and and you know, dispel that heat that's

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Speaker 1: in that environment. Cooper didn't have that opportunity. He was

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Speaker 1: inside of this environment. In one estimate that I heard,

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Speaker 1: they top into the temperature at about a hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty degrees inside of this vehicle. And let's just talk

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Speaker 1: about some of the contributing factors here. First off, he's

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Speaker 1: he's inside of a vehicle, but the vehicle is is

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Speaker 1: parked on an asphalt surface. And what do we know

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Speaker 1: about heat? Will heat rises? Did you know that the

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Speaker 1: interior of that vehicle is actually going to be impacted

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Speaker 1: by rising heat? At vehicle, even though it is insulated,

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Speaker 1: it is going to take on that heat and it's

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Speaker 1: going to be transferred to the interior. Not to mention,

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Speaker 1: the vehicle is completely surrounded in glass. What does glass do. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's like a partly sunny day, um, and that glass

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Speaker 1: is acting to magnify the heat within the vehicle, so

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Speaker 1: the heat is gradually creepy up. We know that the

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Speaker 1: vehicles parked roughly nine is nine thirty ish, I think

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Speaker 1: in the morning, and then it sat there. It sat there.

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Speaker 1: As the sun began to rise, it got hotter and

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Speaker 1: hotter inside of that car, and all the while, little

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Speaker 1: Cooper is back there. Now he's positioned in this car

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Speaker 1: seat so that he's facing rearward. He's not facing forward.

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Speaker 1: And it's not a big car, uh, it's actually a

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Speaker 1: kind of a compact suv. And in this position, he

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Speaker 1: would have been looking rearward and he would have had

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Speaker 1: nobody there to soothe him. Can you imagine his anxiety

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Speaker 1: level increasing, Probably his pulse rates increasing. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about his blood pressure, but certainly his pulse rate. Anxiety

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Speaker 1: is kicking in. And we all know what it's like

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Speaker 1: to be strapped into a seat of a vehicle as

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Speaker 1: an adult. But can you imagine with almost like a

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Speaker 1: four point restraint in this car seat, this young child

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Speaker 1: is pinned down in this thing, and no matter how

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Speaker 1: much he struggles and anxiety is increasing, he doesn't have

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Speaker 1: his mommy and daddy to soothe him. And he begins

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Speaker 1: to sweat. He begins to sweat, and he's starting to

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Speaker 1: feel the effects of the interior environment heating up, mouth

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Speaker 1: is becoming dry, the body is trying to cool itself down.

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Speaker 1: But here's the problem. When we get hot, we can replenish,

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Speaker 1: can't we. We can take on a classic cool water,

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Speaker 1: maybe something to replace electro lyts. Cooper didn't have that opportunity.

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Speaker 1: He's sitting there and he is sweating, clothing is becoming

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Speaker 1: super saturated. But even that saturation of his clothing is

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Speaker 1: beginning to evaporate in this heat. And with every second

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Speaker 1: that ticks off the clock, With every second that ticks

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Speaker 1: off the clock, for Cooper, he's losing hope. As time

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Speaker 1: is going by, mouth is getting dryer, and then soon

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Speaker 1: at one point in time, he'll start to have kind

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Speaker 1: of some intestinal discomfort. Uh. Many times with people that

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Speaker 1: are suffering from hyperthermia, they begin to have stomach cramps,

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Speaker 1: and not just stomach cramps, but also when they begin

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Speaker 1: to heat up, your muscles began to cramp up as well.

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Speaker 1: We see this with athletes out on out on fields,

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Speaker 1: and you know, folks will say, well, he's he's got

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Speaker 1: a cramp in his leg. Well, they have somebody to

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Speaker 1: run out and attend to them, not Cooper. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine being pinned in the seat, superheated in that environment,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly the major muscles in your legs, maybe they

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Speaker 1: begin to cramp up. You've got knots in your stomach

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Speaker 1: where you feel as though that your stomach is really upset.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll have uh, severe nausea, vomiting, there's uh there's

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Speaker 1: also opportunity for to develop acute acute diarrhea in these

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Speaker 1: cases as well. It is a total and complete um,

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Speaker 1: a sensation of discomfort all the while, it's very torturous

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Speaker 1: as time goes by, and and then finally, what is

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Speaker 1: going to be happening as a result of this imbalance

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Speaker 1: of say, the electrolytes in the body, the dehydration, and

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Speaker 1: you will have individuals that will begin to seize. They

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Speaker 1: will have seizures many times. And finally what's going to

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Speaker 1: happen is that you'll have you'll have a fatal cardiac

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Speaker 1: event because the systems are so out of balance at

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Speaker 1: this point in time, the child's heart just stops beating.

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Speaker 1: And that's what happened to Cooper. Interestingly enough, we believe,

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Speaker 1: we believe, based upon what I saw and what I

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Speaker 1: heard in testimony, the Cooper was probably alive. He was

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Speaker 1: probably alive for maybe four four and a half hours.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit more in depth,

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Speaker 1: Joe about some of the things that you just brought up.

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Speaker 1: Whenever it is suspected that someone is experiencing heat stroke,

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Speaker 1: the recommendations are to to get the person into the

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Speaker 1: shade or indoors, to remove access clothing, and to cool

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Speaker 1: the person down by whatever means necessary quickly, and to

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Speaker 1: get emergency services. Some of the symptoms of heat stroke,

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Speaker 1: and you named some of them, is the high court

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Speaker 1: body temperature, the nausea and vomiting. You have a flushed

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Speaker 1: skin as your uh as your skin turns red because

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Speaker 1: of the body temperature, rapid breathing, erasing heartbeat, a headache,

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Speaker 1: and it causes confusion, agitation, slurred speech, irritability, and the

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Speaker 1: seizures that you talked about. It can even put a

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Speaker 1: person into a coma. And all of these things combined

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Speaker 1: together damages the heart, the kidneys, the muscles, the brain.

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Speaker 1: So you said, at that point, the heart just stops.

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Speaker 1: But what is it exactly that we're seeing here, Well, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: is going to be a depletion of several things, and

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Speaker 1: it's some of the things that for our cardiac proceeds

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Speaker 1: to to operate effectively. Remember I talked about the absence

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Speaker 1: of electrolytes. Uh. And when you're bleeding electrolytes out, you

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Speaker 1: know you're using you're losing things like sodium, potassium, and magnesium,

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Speaker 1: and these keep our systems and balance. And as these

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Speaker 1: are exiting the body and you're not replenishing them, that's

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Speaker 1: why you see these events, uh, like the nausea that

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Speaker 1: we talked about, certainly the disorientation, the dizziness, and eventually

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Speaker 1: it leads to a severe cardiac problem. And if you're

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Speaker 1: not if you haven't gotten assistance quick enough, it can

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Speaker 1: lead to brain damage. And of course that's you're an

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Speaker 1: undercoverable flats men there. Physiologically, there's no way to kind

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Speaker 1: of recover from it. And what makes this particularly insidious, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: is the fact that this is something that was researched,

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Speaker 1: the fact that his father would have an awareness of

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Speaker 1: this at least that's what the jury believed, that this

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Speaker 1: was something that was intended to have happened, and that

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Speaker 1: he was found guilty of. And with all of that knowledge,

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Speaker 1: all of that data relative to that, he subjected this

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Speaker 1: child to that and and and again, and this is

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Speaker 1: this is what kind of sends a shiver up your

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Speaker 1: spine as to how cold and callous this event, you know,

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Speaker 1: we had. You know, I remember during the course of

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Speaker 1: this trial, we had a visceral reaction from people when

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Speaker 1: they began to understand what this child had endured. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's one image that really really captured me. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: that came about from an evidentiary standpoint, and that's when

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Speaker 1: Cooper was actually removed from the car seat by his

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Speaker 1: father and he was laying there on the ground. Actually, uh,

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Speaker 1: he was laying in a parking lot and his dad

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Speaker 1: had pulled over into the back of a of a

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Speaker 1: shopping center and had removed Cooper from the car was screaming.

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Speaker 1: A couple of witnesses stated that Harris had attempted to

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Speaker 1: do a couple of compressions on Cooper and walked away.

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Speaker 1: Another gentleman took over. But you know, Jackie, when's crime

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Speaker 1: scene people got there and they were observing Cooper's body.

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Speaker 1: This image will always stick with me. He was laying

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Speaker 1: on his back and his leg x were ben at

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Speaker 1: the knees and contracted upward. Do you know why? Because

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Speaker 1: he had sat in the seats along that riger mortis

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Speaker 1: had set in that he had been there for at

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Speaker 1: least four hours post mortem, probably because riger appeared to

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Speaker 1: be fixed in his legs, And that gives you that

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Speaker 1: that image is so ghastly that it really stuck with

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Speaker 1: me over all these years, you know, since this case happened,

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Speaker 1: and and the fact that this event was so horrific,

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Speaker 1: to the point where you have a father that's searching

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Speaker 1: the internet looking for the impact of what the causative

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Speaker 1: agent that could bring about death in this environment. And

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Speaker 1: it would seem on one level, if in fact he

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Speaker 1: had planned this out like the court says he did,

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Speaker 1: um that it was to him it seemed as though

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Speaker 1: it was gonna be a perfect crime Jackie, that you're

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Speaker 1: not gonna leave behind much evidence other than the fact of, oh,

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Speaker 1: I forgot. And that's what it essentially that it comes

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Speaker 1: down to. You know, it's very it's very difficult to

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Speaker 1: get past the knowledge of what this child went through.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the people that were at the scene,

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Speaker 1: the people that worked this case, they had to drive

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Speaker 1: on through, including the medical examiner personnel that handled this case.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day, and and of course

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Speaker 1: they took Cooper's remains back and did an autopsy on him,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to find answers and many times there's

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Speaker 1: just not a lot you can see with a death

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Speaker 1: related to hyperthermia. Well, speaking of that, Joe, what's actually

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Speaker 1: going to show up in an autopsy? Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: with autopsies, Jackie, the thing that we will do and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk in general kind of about at topsic's

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Speaker 1: real quick. At autopsies, what we're gonna do is it's

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Speaker 1: not just about opening a body and examining the internal

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Speaker 1: organs and drawing toxic college. We look at the totality

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Speaker 1: of everything, you know, we look at the external condition

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Speaker 1: of the body, including the clothing and uh. When Cooper's

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Speaker 1: body came into into the medical examiner's office and they

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Speaker 1: were preparing to do their examination, they noted that Cooper

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Speaker 1: was was closed, he was clean, uh, with the exception

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Speaker 1: that he was still wearing a diaper and the diaper

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Speaker 1: was saturated with urine, which again, you know, going to

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Speaker 1: the hyperthermia, you know your your body is still going

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Speaker 1: to be avoiding during this period of time, you still

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Speaker 1: have a need to avoid and uh, and he would

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Speaker 1: have urinated on himself and had to sit there in

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Speaker 1: those last few hours of his life UM and his

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Speaker 1: body was weighed examined thoroughly and there was no external trauma. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it looked like he had been well cared for UM.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, when the investigators with the

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner's office began to kind of dig into the

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Speaker 1: medical history of Cooper, essentially there was none. He was

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Speaker 1: basically allergic to one drug, which I think may have

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Speaker 1: been an antibiotic, but nothing else. He had no previous

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Speaker 1: medical history. So you had no reason for this child

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Speaker 1: just to have spontaneously died. And that's one of the

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Speaker 1: questions that we that we ask in the medical legal community.

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Speaker 1: Is there any other possibility here, particularly when you have

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Speaker 1: a case that as I had mentioned that hyperthermia is

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Speaker 1: kind of a diagnosis of exclusion. You know, when you've

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Speaker 1: gone through everything else, you you you have to consider

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Speaker 1: everything else before you can arrive at that at that

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Speaker 1: at that moment in time to make that final diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: which course is bolstered by circumstantial evidence. For us, he

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Speaker 1: had no medical history, had nothing to indicate that he

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Speaker 1: had some kind of unknown blood disorder or heart heart disease,

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Speaker 1: or some type of neurological impairment or anything like that,

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Speaker 1: congenital problems that have been passed along. There was no

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Speaker 1: evidence of that. So at the end of the day

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Speaker 1: when the medical exam was doing the autopsy, really the

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Speaker 1: only significant finding that they found with with Cooper's body

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Speaker 1: is that he had swelling or a diema as they

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Speaker 1: put it, in the lungs and he had a diema

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Speaker 1: also swelling in his brain. And that was really the

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Speaker 1: biggest manifestation they could see. And that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: something that's peripherally associated with hypothermia because the body is

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Speaker 1: struggling so much, you know, the process oxygen to try

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Speaker 1: to keep your own heart pumping um, the brain is

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Speaker 1: starved essentially of all of its uh necessary nutrients to

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Speaker 1: to go on, and the brain begins to swell and

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Speaker 1: eventually it shuts down. And so that's from what we

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Speaker 1: referred to as a gross examination, which means with the

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Speaker 1: unaided eye, that's all they found at that point in time.

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Speaker 1: And then they did a microscopic examination, which is called

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Speaker 1: histological examination, and then that's all I found as well.

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Speaker 1: His toxicology screen was clear as well, Jackie. There was

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Speaker 1: no evidence that there was any kind of drugs on

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Speaker 1: board or anything like that. Um. What was evidence though,

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Speaker 1: was the fact that you know, when we go back

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Speaker 1: and we think, you know, his dad had stopped off

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Speaker 1: that one last meal at Chick fil A there in

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Speaker 1: an area called Vinings, Georgia, UH to get him a biscuit,

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Speaker 1: and there's actual image of the two of them inside

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Speaker 1: of the restaurant on CCTV and there was evidence of

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Speaker 1: food and a stomba. So you were talking about the edema.

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Speaker 1: Is the edema a cause of Cooper's death or is

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Speaker 1: it an effect of Cooper's death? You understand my question? Oh, yeah, perfectly,

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Speaker 1: And that's an excellent question, Jack, you've been studying. It's

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Speaker 1: not it is a result of high perthermia. It's it's

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Speaker 1: something that can at least, like I said, be peripherally evidenced.

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Speaker 1: As a result, you have to ask the question why

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Speaker 1: would this have have occurred? Because normally a child of

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Speaker 1: this age is not going to walk around with an

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Speaker 1: endemitius brain and ademitius lungs. That's just not not in

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Speaker 1: the card. So the causitive factor bringing this about is

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Speaker 1: is the evidence of hyperthermia. And it also goes to

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Speaker 1: a bigger picture. It gives you an indication of this

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Speaker 1: kind of final struggle that Cooper's little body was in,

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Speaker 1: you know, as he's he's headed toward death, towards this

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Speaker 1: this fatal event, if you will, as he's strapped into

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Speaker 1: this car seat. And one more thing that was noted

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Speaker 1: at the autopsy by the medical examiner is that on

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Speaker 1: Cooper's back, essentially the left upper back and uh, just

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Speaker 1: over the left buttock, he had what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: a parched abrasion, which gives you an idea that his

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Speaker 1: a dried abrasion and maybe consistent uh say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: with something that had recently happened, or maybe given the

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Speaker 1: fact that he's suffering from this state of dehydration, it

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Speaker 1: may have happened during the struggle as he's trying to

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Speaker 1: break free of these of being restrained. Uh in this

356
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Speaker 1: in this car seat. He wouldn't have known anybody. He's

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Speaker 1: a child, he's thinking, he's just struggling to get loose. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's also another area of a parched abrasion that's found

359
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Speaker 1: over his left tricep area. Folks at home will just

360
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Speaker 1: put your put your hand over your left tricept. It's

361
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Speaker 1: it's the back area of your arm. So again these

362
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Speaker 1: back points of contact, if you will, where he's kind

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Speaker 1: of struggling with his his lower back over his buttock,

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Speaker 1: and that that left tricep area he's struggling. He may

365
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Speaker 1: have abraided that area in the struggle as he's in

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Speaker 1: the final throes of death. So let's talk about what

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Speaker 1: evidence would have been found in the car itself. In

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Speaker 1: the car seat, you said that he had avoided, but

369
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Speaker 1: he would have also defecated to correct when the body

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Speaker 1: dies everything kind of let's go, well, that's not necessarily

371
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Speaker 1: always the case. You know, there's a there's a bit

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Speaker 1: of uh, um, I don't know. It's kind of an

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Speaker 1: urban legend that goes about that says that people, um,

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Speaker 1: actually do defecate themselves at the time of death. And yes,

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Speaker 1: it does in fact happen, and uh, but it's not

376
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Speaker 1: necessarily always the case. The medical examiner had reported that

377
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Speaker 1: they saw evidence of urine in his diaper, but it's

378
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Speaker 1: not like he had had some kind of explosive bowel

379
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Speaker 1: movement or something like that at that moment in time. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: quite interestingly, one of the officers that had arrived at

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Speaker 1: the scene made this this kind of comment that that

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Speaker 1: really struck people at the time. He said that he

383
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Speaker 1: smelled the smell of death within the car at that

384
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Speaker 1: point in time. And I never really unders did what

385
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Speaker 1: was meant by that, because Cooper really didn't have time

386
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Speaker 1: to um to decompose at that point, you know, to

387
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: the point where you would actually it would be manifest

388
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Speaker 1: to the point in a classic sense of of decomposition.

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Speaker 1: I think that it was more maybe and I hate

390
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: to put words into this person's mouth, but maybe just

391
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: the sense of what had gone on in in that vehicle.

392
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Speaker 1: Maybe there was the heavy smell of urine that was

393
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Speaker 1: hanging in the air, UM, the sweat UH that that

394
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Speaker 1: had the UH issued forth from his body during these

395
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Speaker 1: these moments of struggle and this sort of thing. But

396
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, we would look for things like vomitous, we

397
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: would look for things like feces, all of those sorts

398
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Speaker 1: of things. But you know, at the end of the day, UH,

399
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: Cooper's body was actually very well cared for. It was clean,

400
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: It didn't you know, he didn't look like he was unkempt,

401
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: if you will. UM. And as far as what was

402
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: voided from his body, according to a medical examiner, it

403
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: was simply urine. So what what do we have seen

404
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: on the rest of his body? I would have to

405
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 1: imagine that he struggled to get out of the car

406
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Speaker 1: seat that he was strapped into. So would we have

407
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 1: seen scratches? Yeah, you can, And particularly when individuals are

408
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: in fact restrained uh to the point where they're fighting. Remember,

409
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: there was a uh he would have been in a panic.

410
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Speaker 1: Remember I used the term uh kind of anxiety written

411
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Speaker 1: at that at that moment in time where uh you're

412
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Speaker 1: you're fighting against this restraint that is holding you back.

413
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Speaker 1: One interesting um uh note here, though, is that when

414
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Speaker 1: they reflected or began to examine uh Cooper's neck on

415
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: the uh left lateral neck. If folks at home will

416
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: put their hand on the left side of their neck,

417
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 1: there were some evidences particular hemorrhage it and there were

418
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: some evidences of particular hemorrhages there that gives you, uh

419
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: an indication that that maybe uh, in fact, he had

420
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: struggled to the point where some of the blood vessels

421
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: may have given away. You know, many times we see

422
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: that with people that are are being choked out. If

423
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 1: you will and this can happen, you can uh, you

424
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: can develop PATIKII in any number of instances. Actually, women

425
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: that are in labor uh present with potiqui I many

426
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: times because of the strain, and that gives you an

427
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: indication of this kind of rigidity that goes on. Uh.

428
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: You'll have people that have uh gastro intestinal problems where

429
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: they have trouble going to the bathroom. They'll develop patiki

430
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: many times, so they're not always associated with specific trauma

431
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: where people are putting hands on somebody or are doing

432
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: a literature strangulation. When they did do uh this kind

433
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: of examination on him at the topsy, they did note

434
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: that there was a slight uh light green discoloration on

435
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: on on Cooper's abdomen. Now you can't say definitively, but

436
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: many times with a green discoloration that is the very

437
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: very early signs of decomposition. It begins with the bowels

438
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: many times where you'll see this presentation, but it would

439
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: not have been to the point where it would have

440
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: been producing uh the odor that we can generally associate

441
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: with decomposition. Many folks are asking, you know, at the

442
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: conclusion of Ross Harris trial, how did this happened? Exactly

443
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: what took place? How, how how are you absent unawareness

444
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: that you have this precious little life that's in your charge,

445
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: and and not just in your charge for that one

446
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: moment in time, but father and son are involved in

447
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: a daily routine. It's baffling, isn't a jackie. It has

448
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: baffled everyone that has been following this case. Joe first off,

449
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 1: in the one mile distance from Breakfast two the parking

450
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: lot where Justin Ross Harris worked, he says he forgot

451
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: that he was supposed to take this child today. Care

452
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: I don't know of a child yet that, out of

453
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: the excitement of getting food, is not babbling and talking

454
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: for the less than ten minutes that it would take

455
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: to go that distance. How would he have not number

456
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: one seeing the child in his review mirrors, seeing the

457
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: car seat to remind him. And what's the likelihood that

458
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: the child fell asleep in that amount of time? That

459
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: bit of knowledge kind of hitch in the chest like

460
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: a ten pound sledge hammer when you begin to think

461
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: about it. Remember earlier I had mentioned that when they

462
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: were at Chick fil A, and they were at Chick

463
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: fil A. Uh, they were not in the drive through

464
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: at Chick fil A. They were in line at Chick

465
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: fil a matter of fact, this particular restaurants, a restaurant

466
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: that they had gone to in the past. People had

467
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: seen them there in the past. And the cct uh

468
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: TV images that are there are you know, they seem

469
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: kind of a nine when you look at them, but

470
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: given in total context, it's shocking because he's standing there

471
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: with his precious little life in his arms in line.

472
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: He's caught on camera there and this is in you know,

473
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: I don't know how it was to say it in

474
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 1: the twinkling of an eye. It's a very short period

475
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of time that this is occurring in where they go

476
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: into the restaurant, father and son, they stand in line,

477
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: they get their food, they ingest their food, and then

478
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: they're into the car. And you know, right you are

479
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: Jackie about you know, talking about the child falling asleep.

480
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: It's not like it's at naptime at you know, two

481
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon. Kids had enough at that point,

482
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: they're going to drift off, they've got a full tummy

483
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: after lunch. That's not the case we're talking about. This

484
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: child is awakened from a full night sleep, supposedly, gotten dressed,

485
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: gotten ready to stimulated. He knows he's going to school

486
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: or daycare, that's what they do. How could he have

487
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 1: gone to sleep at that point in time? How could

488
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: that have happened? You know where he's not making any

489
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: noise in the back seat. That dad doesn't have any

490
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 1: awareness he is that he is back there. Remember this

491
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: is not like some gigantic suv. This is a Hyundai

492
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: Tucson two thousand and eleven. I think there's not a

493
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: lot of room in this thing. I've been in one.

494
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: It's it's bucket seats in the front and then right

495
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: over your right shoulder if you're the driver that car seat.

496
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: When you look at the at the images from the scene,

497
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: it looks like, you know, Harris is a big guy,

498
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: it looks like it would have been almost touching the

499
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: outer aspect of his right shoulder. How can you not

500
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: be physically aware that, first off, that seat is there,

501
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: and that your son that you just placed back in

502
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: it is there as well, and that your memory collapses

503
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: just in that very short period of time where you

504
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: don't go to the daycare but instead you drive. I

505
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: think I think when I clocked it, it it was there's

506
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: a couple of different routes you can go it's like

507
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: seven tenths of a mile in one direction, and you

508
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: take another direction, it might be a mile to to

509
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: the headquarters where he worked. How's that? How's that even possible?

510
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,200
Speaker 1: And I think that that's the big head scratcher here.

511
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: You park your car off on one end of the

512
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: parking lot. Um you leave it there all day long.

513
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: You go in, you know, you you close, the door

514
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: is up, You leave your kid in the car, You

515
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: walk across the parking lot, maybe you wave at people

516
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: you see, and all the while you remember he's been

517
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: found guilty. All the while in your mind, you've your

518
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: baby is back there in the car, and you're walking

519
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: towards the office. How do you forget that? How is

520
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: that that? That that happens? And you know, while Cooper

521
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: is struggling, remember we're talking, you know, we there's a

522
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: time element here. Maybe he had been down for I

523
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: don't know, three hours, maybe three and a half hours.

524
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: By the time his dad comes back out, he's gone

525
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: to lunch. He stopped by somewhere, bought a pack of

526
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: lightbulbs and physically walked over the car and placed the

527
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: lightbulbs in his car. He rode with somebody else I believe.

528
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: How is it that at that point in time, at

529
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: that point in time, you didn't see Cooper there. There's

530
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: maybe a high probability that at that point in time

531
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: Cooper may have been seizing at that moment, because you know,

532
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: at the end of the day he was there for

533
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. One estimate was like seven

534
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: and a half hours. So if you split the day

535
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: in a half, if it took him four hours to

536
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: die in that heat, maybe his stomach is cramping up,

537
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: Maybe his legs are cramping up. Maybe he's trying to

538
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: double over in pain with his abdomen because he's in

539
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: such severe pain. He's disoriented, he's sweating profusely, he's nauseated.

540
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: All the while, he's crying out for his mom and

541
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: daddy in the best way that he can in his

542
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 1: own little boards that moment, nobody is answering. So one

543
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: of the other questions that people really wanted to answer

544
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: to Joe was the fact that Harris bought lightbulbs while

545
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: he was at lunch and put those lightbulbs in the car.

546
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: How would you, as you mentioned lead, this little boy

547
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 1: had lost control and you have that urine smell, even

548
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: if it's not a lot. In just a regular ninety

549
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: degree temperature, in a very short period of time, the

550
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: smell of urine gets extremely strong. How are you not

551
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: buffeted by that as you open the door to get

552
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: back in? Yeah? I mean, you know lots of you know,

553
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: some people have equated the smell of your in a

554
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: very mild sense, at least to the smell of ammonia

555
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: in a mile sense. Not not like you're cracking up

556
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: in a bottle of ammonia that you buy at the

557
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: grocery store, or or smelling salts. But it does have

558
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: that that that pungent odor to it. And the longer

559
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: kind of festers in the heat like that, and the

560
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 1: more pungent it becomes. How how do you not have

561
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: that awareness? And where did you place these light bulbs?

562
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 1: You know? Again, he's a big guy. He occupies a

563
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: lot of space. Did you just reach in and drop

564
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: them on the seat? And you didn't pay attention to

565
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: anything else because you had to work the lock in

566
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: order to get into the vehicle. You had to uh,

567
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: you had to manipulate the door handle in order to

568
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: gain access. After you've unlocked the vehicle, you have to

569
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 1: bend over at the waist and drop the light bulbs in.

570
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: Then you have to stand back up, you have to

571
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: lock the door, you have to close the door, then

572
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: you have to turn on your heel and you have

573
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: to walk back to the office. How is it at

574
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: that moment time you were not aware that your child

575
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: was in the car? How does how does that happen?

576
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I don't know that I have

577
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: the calculus to figure that. You know, Other than the

578
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 1: fact that he was found guilty of this, the people

579
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 1: in jury obviously felt as though that he had kind

580
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: of thought this thing through, that this was the plan

581
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: all along. Well, Joe, we may find out for sure, because, uh,

582
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: justin Ross, Harris's attorney say he deserves a new trial

583
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: in this case, that the sexual messages that he was

584
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: sending does not make him a killer. So all of

585
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: these things that we've been talking about today, if he

586
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: gets a new trial, would be rehashed all over again.

587
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: What do you think we're gonna see, Joe? I think that, Okay,

588
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: I'll put it to this way. Out of all the

589
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: cases I've covered, in all the cases I've worked in

590
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 1: my career, I've never come across the case where somebody

591
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: utilized a motor vehicle in order to facilitate a homicide.

592
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 1: And that's what this is. This is pure murder. He

593
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: was found guilty of malice murder. I've never I've never

594
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: seen this. And the one thing, the one thought about

595
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: this is that it seems so nutty, It seems so

596
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 1: unhinged the fact that someone would have used the utility

597
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: of a heated vehicle in order to take a small

598
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: child's life. There might be a chance he's going to

599
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: get a new trial because this is not like he

600
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, he struck this child, or he shot his child,

601
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: or even poison this child. This is something so far

602
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: off the beam, if you will, relative to the thought

603
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: of committing a homicide, that it there might be enough, um,

604
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: there might be enough here for for the courts to

605
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: decide that maybe this needs to be taken a look

606
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: at one more time. He might get another trial. I'm

607
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs