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Speaker 1: Hey, this is bridget And and you're listening to stuff

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Speaker 1: Mom never told you. And today I'm pretty excited to

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Speaker 1: talk through one of my favorite topics, reality TV. Not

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Speaker 1: just any reality TV, trashy reality TV. I'm talking shows

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Speaker 1: like the Kardashians, keeping up with Them, keeping up with Them,

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Speaker 1: not just Kim, but Kim, Chloe, the Kendall, Kylie, the

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Speaker 1: entire crew, Crew with Crew, with the Cave of course.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking shows like Basketball Wives. I'm talking shows like

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Speaker 1: Real Housewives, which is everywhere, Real Housewives of Everywhere, particularly

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Speaker 1: Atlanta because it's my very favorite one. Basically, anything like

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Speaker 1: me you love love love love love kicking back with

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Speaker 1: a good trashy reality TV show sometimes, I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty fun that is turned off your brain and

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Speaker 1: just watch people have really a main conversations and have

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Speaker 1: arguments about things that are super trivial that really don't matter,

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Speaker 1: and you know, throw drinks in each other's faces. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's fun. Right. First of all, I feel like reality

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Speaker 1: TV is more nuanced than it seems. Oh, as a

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Speaker 1: kind of sour of reality TV, I could vouch for that.

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Speaker 1: It absolutely is. Probably My favorite thing about reality TV

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Speaker 1: is how campy and over the top. It is. There

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Speaker 1: are things that come up on reality TV shows that

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Speaker 1: are so over the top you can't believe they've actually happened.

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Speaker 1: And of course they're scripted in YadA YadA YadA, but

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Speaker 1: they didn't actually happen. I can't that happened because it's fake.

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Speaker 1: But that's why I love it so much, is that

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Speaker 1: it's sort of this hyper reality that imagine if this

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Speaker 1: was the actual world that we lived in. It's not,

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Speaker 1: but imagine if it was. Yeah, there's almost this need

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Speaker 1: to like suspend belief for a moment. To really enjoy

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Speaker 1: reality TV. You have just to spend belief and not

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Speaker 1: to mention, suspend your feminist ideology, which I think The

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Speaker 1: Onion parodied so perfect in their article satirical article obviously

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Speaker 1: titled women take short half hour break from being feminist

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Speaker 1: to enjoy TV show. That article is basically my life

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Speaker 1: when I come home from a long day of being

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Speaker 1: mired and feminist politics and super depressed. Sometimes I just

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Speaker 1: want to come home and watch my dang shows right

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Speaker 1: and turn off my brain and not think about things

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Speaker 1: for a while. The article says, saying that she just

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Speaker 1: wanted a little time to relax and not even think

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Speaker 1: about confiding gender stereotypes. Local healthcare industry consultant Natalie Jenkins

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Speaker 1: reportedly took a thirty minute break from being a feminist

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Speaker 1: last night to kick back and enjoy a television program.

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Speaker 1: Jenkins told reporters that after a long and tiring day

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Speaker 1: at the office, all she wanted to do was return home,

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Speaker 1: sit down in her couch, and turn on an episode

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Speaker 1: of TLC's reality show Say Yes to the Dress, and

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Speaker 1: treat herself to a brief half hour where she could

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Speaker 1: look past all the various and near constant ways popular

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Speaker 1: culture undermines the progress of women. There's a quote from

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Speaker 1: said woman in this article saying, between nine and nine thirty,

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Speaker 1: I'm not even going to take notice of all the

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Speaker 1: two dimensional portrayals of women. Is fashion and shopping obsessed

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Speaker 1: Prima Donna's that part of my brain will just be

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Speaker 1: switched off. Here here, Natalie, I am right there with you,

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Speaker 1: and it's funny, but it's also true and fictional. Natalie

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Speaker 1: and I are not alone. Women watch more reality TV

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Speaker 1: than men. According to Civic Science, a market research firm,

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Speaker 1: women are ten percent more likely than men to be

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Speaker 1: what they call super fans of reality TV. That's people

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Speaker 1: who watch more than five hours a week. Would you

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Speaker 1: say that you're a super fan. I'm a super super fan.

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Speaker 1: If you look at my DVR, my DVR is all

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Speaker 1: Judge Judy, Law and Order, criminal Intent. Well, that's not

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Speaker 1: reality TV. I mean it's inspired by real events. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love my c Laan art. I could if I

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Speaker 1: My dream of dreams is to host a podcast spit off.

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Speaker 1: That's just law and Order focused. Yes, you need to

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Speaker 1: pitch that right away. I love that. Networks call me No,

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Speaker 1: it's real. I mean, you're a Kim Kardashian selfie book

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Speaker 1: owning reality TV fan, are you not? Can I say

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Speaker 1: people gave Kim Kardashian a lot of crap about that

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Speaker 1: selfie book. If her name were Andy Warhol, it would

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Speaker 1: be on the top ten best art book lists of

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Speaker 1: the year it came out. I agree, I think the

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Speaker 1: I mean, for me, I'm not a reality TV super fan,

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Speaker 1: but I am a Kardashian super fan, so we we

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Speaker 1: really should devote an entire episode to them. On another day.

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Speaker 1: But I think the Kardashians have shown how much reality

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Speaker 1: TV can be a platform for your business. That is

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Speaker 1: your whole life, and they've turned their lives into business machines,

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Speaker 1: into money making machines. Definitely. So I mentioned earlier in

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Speaker 1: the show that I'm obsessed with this show, Real Housewives

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Speaker 1: of Atlanta. Um Ninie Leaks is someone who I quote often.

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Speaker 1: She's great fun. In fact, her picture is hanging in

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Speaker 1: the African American Cultural Museum here in d C. If

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Speaker 1: you go to that museum, they have a wall dedicated

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Speaker 1: to black gestures, and her iconic point is in the

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Speaker 1: museum as an iconic black gesture. So fun fast. She's

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Speaker 1: the most giffable person Mimi Leagues or Jeff pardon me,

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Speaker 1: She's a very highly referenced jif on Jiffy or Giffy

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Speaker 1: she is. She is as much as I love Real

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Speaker 1: Housewives of Atlanta as this light, fluffy, mindless entertainment. Recently,

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Speaker 1: I've had this sort of contend with the fact that

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Speaker 1: their entertainment might not just be for entertainment value. Actually

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Speaker 1: it can be kind of heavy. I'm talking about the

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Speaker 1: controversy earlier this week that one of the characters on

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Speaker 1: the show, Kenya, was found making some pretty transphobic statements

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Speaker 1: on the show, and even before that, Kenya had a

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Speaker 1: situation on the show where she was actually the victim

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Speaker 1: of intimate partner abuse, and rather than showing this as

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Speaker 1: the serious and very scary thing that it was on

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Speaker 1: the show, it was more handled like a juicy plotline

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Speaker 1: to write down very very upsetting and troubling. I actually

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Speaker 1: wrote a piece on hopping in post and I just wondered,

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Speaker 1: why is this not being treated as very, very serious abuse.

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Speaker 1: Why are Bravo executives putting a camera in this woman's

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Speaker 1: face and having her talk about her situation as if

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Speaker 1: it's a juicy, you know, argument at a party, when

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Speaker 1: in fact it's really scary, really scary. I think the

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Speaker 1: same sort of reality TV washing over serious issues happens

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Speaker 1: again and again on Real Housewives. I'm not the most

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Speaker 1: avid watcher of the Real Housewives empire, but I do

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Speaker 1: recall that The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills featured some

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Speaker 1: really scary footage of Kim Richard's dealing with drug and

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Speaker 1: alcohol abuse issues, or purported drug and alcohol abuse issues,

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Speaker 1: and keeping the cameras rolling when this is a woman

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Speaker 1: who is experiencing a medical low point in her life,

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Speaker 1: who needs serious intervention and help and support. Instead, they're

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Speaker 1: they're making money off of her spectacle, which I just

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Speaker 1: thought was really not okay exactly. And even furthermore, when

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Speaker 1: Russell Armstrong killed himself, he was a husband of one

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Speaker 1: of the characters on our Real Housewives franchise. It was

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Speaker 1: later revealed that he was abusive towards his wife. And

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Speaker 1: I like reality TV, but that's scary and serious, and

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Speaker 1: I don't feel good about promoting people's darkest moments as

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Speaker 1: a spectacle. Yeah, it's pretty gross actually, if you think

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Speaker 1: about the fact that, like, they're using your attention to

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Speaker 1: sell ads, and they're using someone's very real crisis as

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Speaker 1: drama that is being commercialized. I just find that really gross.

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Speaker 1: And I think back to one of the earliest reality

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Speaker 1: TV shows, The Real World. I remember the character Ruthie,

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Speaker 1: who have actually met in real life when I was

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Speaker 1: in college. He came to give a talk at my

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Speaker 1: college about safe sex and healthy choices. So shout out

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Speaker 1: to Ruthie. But I don't know if you guys remember

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of dating myself here. Reality TV didn't used

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Speaker 1: to be the spectacle of people making dangerous and abusive decisions.

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Speaker 1: It was just showing people what they were doing and

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Speaker 1: it was Ruthy drunk driving outside of a nightclub one night.

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Speaker 1: That was kind of a turning point where you actually

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Speaker 1: saw MTV producers in real time trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: what to do. Do they let her drive home and

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Speaker 1: film it? Do they stop her? And it was really

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Speaker 1: for me a turning point of Oh one, reality TV

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Speaker 1: is going to be a big part of our culture too.

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Speaker 1: What is the responsibility of the people who produce this

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Speaker 1: kind of programming to make sure they're putting out content

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Speaker 1: that is responsible or just to make sure that the

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Speaker 1: people who are in front of the camera are safe,

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Speaker 1: plain and simple. And when abuse and sort of spectacle

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Speaker 1: is made the norm, then we end up with reality

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Speaker 1: TV that's not just harmful for the people on it,

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Speaker 1: but it's harmful for the people viewing it and normalizes

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Speaker 1: behavior that should not be normalized. Absolutely so, even though

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Speaker 1: I'm someone who is a huge advocate for coming home

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Speaker 1: after a hard day, putting your feet up and just

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Speaker 1: watching four hours of Jersey Shore, you have to ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: am I actually contributing to something negative and harmful? Can

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Speaker 1: you really just turn off your brain and consume this

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Speaker 1: entertainment mindlessly or is something else going on. We're going

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Speaker 1: to dive into that after this quick break. Edward back,

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Speaker 1: I have just admitting some of my favorite guilty pleasure

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Speaker 1: TV and thinking about whether it is a guilty pleasure,

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Speaker 1: if I should feel guilty about it, or if I'm

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Speaker 1: contributing to something a little more harmful than I might realize.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that we talked about is the people

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Speaker 1: in front of the camera, whether or not they're being

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Speaker 1: treated in a way that is safe and healthy. But

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Speaker 1: it's always important to think about those who are in

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Speaker 1: front of the TV consuming this programming as well. It

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Speaker 1: probably isn't a surprise to y'all. Reality programming isn't really

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Speaker 1: that helpful when it comes to young girls. It's not

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Speaker 1: good for young girls. It's probably not good for all

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Speaker 1: of us. But there's been a lot of research done

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Speaker 1: by the Girl Scouts Institute on the rise of reality

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Speaker 1: TV and how it has some troubling consequences for young

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Speaker 1: girls consuming it. Girls and young women say that they're

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Speaker 1: regular viewers, that's a lot. That's almost fifty of the population,

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Speaker 1: with thirty saying that they sometimes watch. So that's almost

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Speaker 1: eight percent of girls and young women saying that they

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Speaker 1: sometimes or regularly view reality TV. Eight six percent of

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Speaker 1: girls believe these shows quote often pit girls against each

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Speaker 1: other to make the shows more exciting, and another seventy

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Speaker 1: say that these shows make people think it's okay to

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Speaker 1: treat each other badly. That makes me so sad, because

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Speaker 1: if all of these young girls are consuming this media

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Speaker 1: and a lot of them are agreeing that it makes

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Speaker 1: people think it's okay to treat each other in a

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Speaker 1: way that's not nice. It's just you just have to

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Speaker 1: ask us, like, what are they consuming, what are they

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Speaker 1: learning about. I'm a big proponent in reminding folks that

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Speaker 1: some kind of content is only suited for adults, and

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Speaker 1: I think reality TV might fall in that category. But

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Speaker 1: according to a study by Parent Television Council, a lot

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Speaker 1: of young folks are consuming reality TV, particularly on MTV.

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Speaker 1: And what's kind of interesting is that MTV reality TV

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Speaker 1: programming is that some of the most harmful out there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about things like teen Mom and Jersey Shore,

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Speaker 1: and I'm surprised to hear that Teen Mom falls into

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Speaker 1: that category of being sort of slammed as being bad

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Speaker 1: for children and especially young girls watching it. A study

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Speaker 1: actually released by the National Bureau of Economic Research says

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Speaker 1: that Sixteen and Pregnant ultimately lead to a five point

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Speaker 1: seven percent reduction in teen births in the eighteen months

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Speaker 1: after its premiere on TV. That actually postulates that this

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Speaker 1: show alone accounts for a third of the overall decline

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Speaker 1: in teen births in the United States during that period. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's really something. So full disclosure, I'm a big watcher

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Speaker 1: of Teen Mom and Sixteen and Pregnant, But I always

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Speaker 1: wondered if the show, even though it makes teen motherhood

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Speaker 1: look very difficult and look very stressful and look like

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Speaker 1: something that's not a walk in the park for sure,

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Speaker 1: part of me always thought, while if I'm a teenager

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Speaker 1: watching this, even if this looks stressful and difficult and

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Speaker 1: hard to do, still on TV, and so I wonder

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Speaker 1: if some young people watch this and say, Jesus doesn't

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Speaker 1: look fun at all, But if she can do what

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Speaker 1: I can do it, if she can do what I

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Speaker 1: can do it, And she's in magazines and I'm watching

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Speaker 1: on MTV right now, so and now she's an influencer,

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Speaker 1: and now she's getting plastic surgery, and now what's happening

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Speaker 1: beyond the show. Yeah, I think it definitely has long

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Speaker 1: term harmful consequences, even if the short term impact was

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Speaker 1: a positive one, if you want to put it that way.

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Speaker 1: I just think it's complicated. And what's worse is that

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Speaker 1: even shows like teen Mom or sixteen and Pregnant, like

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Speaker 1: Jersey Shore, like The Real Housewives pit women against each other.

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Speaker 1: It reduces women to caddy stereotypes that are not positive

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Speaker 1: depictions of all that women can be exactly. Going back

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Speaker 1: to that Parent Television Council study for a minute, one

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Speaker 1: of the things they found in that study is that

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Speaker 1: shows like teen Mom, you might think of it as

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Speaker 1: being really sexist in terms of men making sexist, harmful

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Speaker 1: comments to women. Actually, the study found that you're more

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Speaker 1: likely to see women making negative comments towards other women

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Speaker 1: or to themselves than men. And so I think if

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Speaker 1: you're a young person watching this, that might normalize this

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Speaker 1: idea that as a young woman, it's okay to be

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Speaker 1: negative toward your female peers and it's also okay to

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Speaker 1: be negative toward yourself. That is so depressing. And the

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Speaker 1: other part of this research that I found really frustrating

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Speaker 1: and reductive was the fact that this cool girl narrative

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Speaker 1: seems to be very popular and common in reality TV.

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Speaker 1: Males tended to refer to females as quote cool and

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Speaker 1: view them more favorably when females displayed characteristics that males

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Speaker 1: considered more male, like basically not caring about having an

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Speaker 1: emotional connection with the people that you're sleeping with, and

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Speaker 1: not viewing sex as an indication of a greater commitment,

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Speaker 1: not requiring romance prior to intercourse, not being jealous when

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Speaker 1: the males were sexual with other females that cool girl

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Speaker 1: who's in emotionally detached. That sort of trope plays out

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Speaker 1: over and over again. What is that teaching girls watching?

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Speaker 1: What is that teaching girls watching like about how they

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Speaker 1: should respect themselves or what they should emotionally require for

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Speaker 1: partners and equally respectful relationships that they choose to enter into. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong if you're an adult woman who is

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Speaker 1: getting into consensual sexual relationships and you don't feel very

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Speaker 1: emotionally attached. But I don't think we should be telling

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Speaker 1: young teenage girls that that is the way for boys

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Speaker 1: to think that you're cool, That you're cool if you're

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Speaker 1: this kind of person. Girls should be figuring out what

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Speaker 1: kind of person they want to be and what kind

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Speaker 1: of sexual relationships feel right and healthy and respectful for

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Speaker 1: them if they're getting this message that the only kinds

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Speaker 1: of sexual relationships you can have and still be considered

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Speaker 1: quote cool are ones that are detached and icy and

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Speaker 1: all of that. I don't think that's good. No, it's not.

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Speaker 1: And not to mention, reality TV shows like The Real

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Speaker 1: Housewives tend to portray women not as nuanced characters with

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Speaker 1: full years and lives and interests, but instead they really

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Speaker 1: reduce women to these oversimplified stereotypes that aren't just based

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Speaker 1: on gender but race. Two exactly, Emily, and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: hear more on that topic and how reality TV shows

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Speaker 1: can really treat women of color in some nasty, toxic ways.

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Speaker 1: And here from a guest who pretty much wrote the

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Speaker 1: book on how that happens. After a quick break, and

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Speaker 1: we're back and for more on reality TV whether or

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Speaker 1: not it is just a harmless, guilty pleasure or if

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Speaker 1: it can be a little bit more harmful. We're joined

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Speaker 1: by Jennifer Posner. Jennifer Posner is a media critics, speaker

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Speaker 1: and founder of Women in Media and News. Her book

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Speaker 1: Reality Bites Back the Troubling truth about guilty Pleasure TV

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Speaker 1: exposes how reality TV functions as a backlash against gender

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Speaker 1: and racial justice. She's been published in The New York Times, Newsweek, Bitch,

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Speaker 1: Miss The Nation, Politico, among others, and has appeared as

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Speaker 1: a commentator on ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox,

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Speaker 1: among many others. Jennifer, we are so glad to have

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Speaker 1: you here today. Thank you. I'm glad to be with you. So, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: we started today's episode of me talking about my love

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Speaker 1: of reality TV and sort of it being a guilty

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Speaker 1: pleasure of right, its turn off my brain and watch it.

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Speaker 1: Can you really consume reality TV in this way? Do

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Speaker 1: you think? Well, it's not so much, can you? It's

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Speaker 1: it's more, should you write? And it's not even only

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Speaker 1: should you consume reality TV this way? It should you

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Speaker 1: engage with any kind of media that way? Um So,

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Speaker 1: As a media literacy educator, my main goal when I

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Speaker 1: wrote the book Reality Bites Back, just as when I

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Speaker 1: do media literacy talks or workshops on how to engage

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Speaker 1: with journalistic media. Um my goal is not to get

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Speaker 1: people to stop watching reality TV or to stop, um

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Speaker 1: you know, watching a particular news show that they enjoy.

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Speaker 1: The goal is to just be able to arm yourself

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Speaker 1: with a critical deconstruction tools UH that will allow you

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Speaker 1: to watch these shows if you really want to still

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Speaker 1: have fun with it, but not subtly take in all

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Speaker 1: the really damaging messages that are always beaming out from

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Speaker 1: so many of these um, so many of these programs

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Speaker 1: in the genre that really get you when you're in

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Speaker 1: the state of turning your brain off. That's the one

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Speaker 1: thing that I really hope that people don't do is

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Speaker 1: continue to think that it's okay for us, that we

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Speaker 1: won't be harmed if we turn our brain off. UM

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Speaker 1: is really tempting to want to though. Look, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm human. I'm a huge TV fan, right I grew up.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the eighties. I was the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote latch key kid. You know, I didn't have siblings

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Speaker 1: TV with my sister, you know. Um, And it's tuching.

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Speaker 1: We have hard lives now. We go to work, we

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Speaker 1: go to school, it's difficult, the world of the dumpster fire.

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Speaker 1: We want to come home not think about things. But

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Speaker 1: when we don't think, when we are in a passive state,

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Speaker 1: that is when advertisers and that is when media producers

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Speaker 1: have us at our most intellectually and emotionally vulnerable. That's

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Speaker 1: when the deep seated messages around gender, around race, around class,

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Speaker 1: around sexuality, UM can sort of subtly sink in in

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Speaker 1: ways that can do with damage. It sounds like you're

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Speaker 1: advocating for conscious consumption of really trashy TV, is that right? Well, like,

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Speaker 1: if you're going like almost if you're going to go there,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to consume it, consume it actively with

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Speaker 1: a critical eye, right, I mean, what are those harmful

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Speaker 1: messages that you see over and over again in this genre,

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Speaker 1: and specifically messages that are harmful for women and girls

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Speaker 1: and women of color. Well, it's um, it's so incredibly

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Speaker 1: uh dnse the the amount of misogyny and racism in

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Speaker 1: reality TV, UM has been, it's almost incalculable. Although I

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Speaker 1: did my best document ten years of it, the first

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Speaker 1: ten years on network and cable TV. Uh, the first

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Speaker 1: ten years on network TV and the sort of proliferation

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Speaker 1: of it on cable from two thousand to two thousands

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Speaker 1: ten and UM, I can tell you that there are

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Speaker 1: a number of incredibly damaging tropes, including the idea that

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Speaker 1: women in general are caddie bitchy, not to be trusted,

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Speaker 1: especially not by other women. UM. That women are stupid, um,

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Speaker 1: ditzy bimbos. Uh, intellectually inferior to uh two men. Um

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Speaker 1: that they can't get ahead unless they trade on their sexuality. UM.

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Speaker 1: That women are sort of overly emotional and over sensitive

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Speaker 1: to things that are so not a big deal, you know,

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Speaker 1: like violence against women. UM. And that UM that women

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Speaker 1: are incompetent. Also they're incompetent at work, but they're also

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Speaker 1: incompetent at home. They're bad moms, they're bad wives, they're

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Speaker 1: bad girlfriends. Um. It's very rare that women are portrayed

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Speaker 1: in reality TV as doing anything right. And uh there's also,

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Speaker 1: of course the notion that women are cellow, greedy gold diggers. UM.

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Speaker 1: That women are mercenary and only interested in love for

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Speaker 1: what it can give them financially. Um. And finally that

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Speaker 1: women are in general in particular single women are in

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Speaker 1: general they're pathetic, desperate, man hungry losers who can never

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Speaker 1: possibly live full, happy or successful lives without husbands. And

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Speaker 1: I should say they don't have to even be good husbands.

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Speaker 1: They can be um sort of chauvinistic and disrespectful and

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Speaker 1: not loyal, cheaters and even abusive to them. But if

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Speaker 1: their husbands then maybe those women can live you know,

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Speaker 1: acceptable lives. But otherwise they're going to be losers forever. Um.

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Speaker 1: And those tropes that I mentioned applied to all women

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Speaker 1: in reality TV across the board. In for and I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about dating shows. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: dating shows, makeover shows, lifestyle shows, even some of the

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Speaker 1: you know, the talent competition shows, the uh, how to

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Speaker 1: change your house and you know, flip it shows, the

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Speaker 1: decor shows, cooking shows. I've seen these tropes across the genre.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk in another question about the apprentice and business shows. Um.

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Speaker 1: But even as all women are represented in those kinds

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Speaker 1: of ways, UM, women of color face even more extreme

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Speaker 1: stereotyping and discrimination and bias in reality TV. So in

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Speaker 1: addition to the stupidity and the losers and the gold

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Speaker 1: diggers and and etcetera, you have h the idea that

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Speaker 1: black women are incurably angry, belligerents, uneducated, ignorant, violence, ready

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Speaker 1: to pop off verbally or physically at the drop of

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Speaker 1: a hat. Um. That hyper sexual of course, very much

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Speaker 1: going between the mammy and the Jezebel stereotypes from back

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Speaker 1: from minstrel days. And then when it comes to UH

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Speaker 1: Latino women, there's been this very uh consistent stereotype of

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Speaker 1: uh sort of trope of the spicy hot latina, the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote Hucci the very much focused around sex and sexuality,

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Speaker 1: but in an exploited way, not in a way that

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Speaker 1: UM assumes that that woman has agencies, UM. Not in

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Speaker 1: a sex positive way, more in a sexploitative way. UM.

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Speaker 1: And with Asian women, there's who have appeared very rarely

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Speaker 1: on reality TV. There's a lot more invisibility. But when

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Speaker 1: Asian women have not been completely invisible, they've been portrayed

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Speaker 1: as very much the sort of dragon lady stereotype or

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Speaker 1: the kind of geisha stereotype. It's really base. A lot

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Speaker 1: of the stereotypes about UM women women in general, and

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Speaker 1: women of color in particular are incredibly venal base regressive

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Speaker 1: ideas about who we are as people, and and men

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Speaker 1: too have been portrayed in these negative in in negative

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Speaker 1: and limiting ways. UM men are portrayed as basically Mr

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Speaker 1: write as long as they have a firm mass and

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Speaker 1: a firm financial portfolio, and they only you know, like

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Speaker 1: that's all you need boys, you know, make it big

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Speaker 1: on Wall Street and you can you know, you can

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Speaker 1: do anything, you can grab it by the Oh wait,

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Speaker 1: I think we've seen what reality TV tells us is

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Speaker 1: Mr Wright right in the most grands, world threatening sense,

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Speaker 1: um and in the very This is part of why

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Speaker 1: I have not been surprised by Trump, because I monitored

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Speaker 1: the genre for the for ten years. I analyzed, I

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Speaker 1: transcribed personally every episode of The Apprentice for like a decade.

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Speaker 1: None of this was surprising to me because I saw

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Speaker 1: it all on TV and we all did too, but

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Speaker 1: not in a critical way. And that goes back to

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Speaker 1: why I think it's really important to watch in a critical,

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Speaker 1: active way so that we understand what's coming at us. So, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: in addition to our president, what are some other specific

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Speaker 1: examples that you've seen this play out on TV? Well, UM,

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Speaker 1: let's see what do we want to talk about first?

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Speaker 1: Let's let's um talk about everybody's uh, one of everybody's

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Speaker 1: favorites sort of either actual favorites or hate watch favorites,

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Speaker 1: The Bachelor and The bacheloret Um. Because one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons I start out with that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: time is because a it's one of the very first

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Speaker 1: ajor reality shows that ever hit network television, and it's

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Speaker 1: the longest running dating franchise on TV. But it's also

427
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 1: the franchise that started or at least revived for contemporary audiences.

428
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: Many of these tropes about women, many of made many

429
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: of these stereotypes about women and about gender roles in general.

430
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: Um sort of Derek Gurr across the board in the

431
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: burgeoning reality TV genre that it was at the birth of.

432
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: And so you look at the way that The Bachelor

433
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: was set up in the beginning as a cattle call

434
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: basically UM to portray women as having so little self

435
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: respect and so little prospects, so few prospects in life,

436
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: that they would subject themselves to live in uh, in

437
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: a house with zero access to outside information or phone

438
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,439
Speaker 1: calls to their kids or their friends, or newspapers or

439
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: magazines or internet. Um, just so that some dude they've

440
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: never met before, who they don't know from Adam, who

441
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: could be anyone. He could be a rapist, he could

442
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 1: be a loser. Who knows. But ABY says that ABC

443
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: says he's great at Oh, he has a great act.

444
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 1: So let's marry him, ladies, otherwise will die alone? That

445
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: The phrase die alone was a constant since the beginning

446
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:35,679
Speaker 1: of that franchise, One after another after another, woman in

447
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: her early twenties to early thirties constantly saying, I don't

448
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: want to die alone? What's wrong with me? Why can't

449
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: anybody love me for who I am? I try to

450
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,199
Speaker 1: be skinny enough, I try to be beautiful enough, I

451
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: try to be nice enough. Why would at anybody love me?

452
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: This is my only shot, this is my only chance,

453
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: this is my only And they'd have these repeated narratives

454
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: about how women are nothing unless some dude chooses them,

455
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: and the portrayal of the men is just they're perfect,

456
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: they're not to actually be very smart, and they're usually not.

457
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 1: They'recually be very interesting, and there's usually not um. All

458
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: those fantastic vacations and glamorous dinners and very expensive gifts

459
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 1: and rings and dresses and cars are a stand in

460
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: for how dull the man is, and women are heated

461
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: against each other in pursuit of that one dude because

462
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: they are telling the audience the producers, I said, I

463
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: don't mean the women themselves. The producers are telling the

464
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: audience that one of these women will emerge happy and

465
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: in love, and being in love is the only successful

466
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: accomplishments a woman can make in her life, is the implication.

467
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: And all the others are gonna go home being losers

468
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: like they always were. It doesn't matter what they drew professionally,

469
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: It doesn't you know, they shouldn't have ambition, And theition

470
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: has been portrayed on that franchise until very recently and

471
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: only in the last couple of seasons. Um have there

472
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: been exceptions? Ambition was almost always portrayed on that franchise

473
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 1: as being extremely unattractive and wrong. So I feel like

474
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: these examples you're giving are so spot on and also

475
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: so omnipresent that how is a feminist like me or

476
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: a reality TV show loving feminists like bridget here? How

477
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 1: are you supposed to enter into conscious consumption? Like? Is

478
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: there a right way to watch reality TV while being

479
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: conscientious of the messages were receiving. They're absolutely are ways

480
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: to reduce the home and still be able to get

481
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: pleasure from your entertainment. Um, I have a whole after

482
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: in the back of the towards the ends of my book,

483
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Reality Rights back called fun with media literacy. And the

484
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: reason that I am really, um, I'm really passionate about

485
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: media literacy is because it allows you to sort of

486
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: strike back at propaganda, UM, strike back at sort of

487
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: intellectual brainwashing without sacrificing uh, sort of the human need

488
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: for entertainments. Um, without sacrificing fun. Right, So here are

489
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: some ways, UM, when you when you watch a reality

490
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: TV show, it feels like when you engage with any

491
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: other form of media. UM, what are they ask yourself

492
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: some very key questions, um, who created this image? Um?

493
00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: And when I say who created it, who owns it? Um?

494
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: Who is the image for profits from it? Um? What

495
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: are the are the sort of financial investments in this image? So,

496
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: for example, reality TV as opposed to a lot of

497
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: other kinds of media, Reality TV a lot of the

498
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: reason that, um, that it's so toxic is it's incredibly

499
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: cheap to make, and it comes because it's you know,

500
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: they don't use union Uh wait you don't. They don't

501
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: pay union wages, they don't use workers. But they also

502
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: come in before the show is ever on the air,

503
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: they have sold. Usually some of these big franchises like

504
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: American Idol or The Bachelor the voice, etcetera. They've sold

505
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: millions upon millions of dollars of product placement advertising before

506
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: the show has ever gotten to air, so they don't

507
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: even have to get the really high ratings. UM. They

508
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: can stay on the air with much lower ratings than

509
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: a scripted show because they've already made half their money already.

510
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: UM and advertisers have been notoriously sexists and nicist. As

511
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: we know if we've ever studied any kind of media

512
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: literacy before, one of the things you want to be

513
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: conscious of is whether or not you're being sold something,

514
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: whether that thing you're being sold is commercial or ideological.

515
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: So what are the messages you're being sold alongside this entertainment?

516
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: What is the master narrative? Right? How have UM, the

517
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: producers and the editors worked in conjunction UM with each

518
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: other behind the scenes to get you to think and

519
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: feel certain things about characters, about people, about scenarios, and

520
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: if you believe most people, Let's be frank, if I

521
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: said to most people you know, even like you love

522
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: reality cite, if I said to you, do you think

523
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: it's real? What would you say? I would say it's

524
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: I would say it's probably not real. If I had

525
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: to say, I know it's not real. I want it

526
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 1: and pretend that it's real, but I know it's not.

527
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: And you know, I think most people at this point

528
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: in the beginning of the genre, when I would do

529
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: media literacy workshops or talks with students in like two

530
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: thousand three, two thou four, they really did think it

531
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 1: was real. But in the last ten years or so,

532
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: people have started to get hip to it and they

533
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: understand it's not real, or at least they think they do.

534
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: So they mostly say exactly what you just said, or

535
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 1: some version of it. But if I then asked people,

536
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: and I've I've done this so many times, it always

537
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: works out the same way. If I then ask people

538
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: about a character on their favorite reality show and I say,

539
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 1: what do you think about that person? I get back, oh, so,

540
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,239
Speaker 1: oh she's a oh he's so oh she's such a

541
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: sweet girl. Oh. But if you believe you know a

542
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 1: person who you've seen in reality TV and what you

543
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: think they're really like, you don't really know reality TV

544
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: is not because you don't know what Frank and Byte

545
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: ending can do. Frank and Bye ending is the lifeblood

546
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: of a genre, and what it does is it can

547
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: take little bits and pieces of conversations that people have

548
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: had with entirely different people on entirely different days, about

549
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: entirely different subjects, splice them together and make it seem

550
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: like somebody who was talking about their puppy is actually

551
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,280
Speaker 1: in love with the Bachelor, or somebody who was crying

552
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: about um their father getting a phone call that their

553
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: fathers in the hospital, was actually crying on the job,

554
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: so they're a bad candidates at The Apprentice or etcetera.

555
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: The manipulations that go on behind the scenes from producers,

556
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: both in the in the editing and structurally UM in

557
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: many other ways, often are aims at selling you some

558
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 1: very specific ideas about individual characters, but also about women, men,

559
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: people of color, trans people, queer people, straight people, you know,

560
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: poor people, rich people, etcetera. And uh, you know, white people,

561
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: black people, And we need to be really conscious to

562
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: break of that selling process. To break it down. We

563
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,400
Speaker 1: also need to be conscious of when a product itself

564
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: is being sold to us, so that we're not just

565
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: watching UM, we're not just devoting ourselves to something we

566
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: think is entertainment but really it's just a major commercial.

567
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: Like every episode of The Apprentice, half the episode is

568
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: all about UM selling something for a company. Well, well, Jennifer,

569
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're really giving us the tools that

570
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: we need to really be more critical viewers of this

571
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: kind of content, that we're not just sort of mindlessly

572
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 1: viewing it thinking that it's a guilty pleasure that's super harmless.

573
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 1: Where can our listeners find out more about all the

574
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: great work that you're doing. That was just a tip

575
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: of the iceberg. If you want more tips like that,

576
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: my book Reality Bites back The Troubling Truth about Guilty

577
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: Pleasure TV. You can find out more about it at

578
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: Reality bites back book dot com. UM I actually do

579
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: media literacy talks and workshops both on reality TV as

580
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: well as an on a variety of other topics, UM

581
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: in particular right now on rape culture, rape culture and

582
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: gun violence in the media. So if anybody is interested

583
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: in that, they can contact me on Twitter, act at

584
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: j E n N P o z n e R,

585
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: or on Facebook. Find me there Jennifer L. Posner UM

586
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: and UH I would love to. I'm always happy to

587
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: answer media literacy questions and keep the conversation going, So

588
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 1: feel free to tweet at me and let's UH let's all,

589
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,479
Speaker 1: you know, let's never turn our brains off but still

590
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: enjoy our entertainment here here. Thanks so much, Jennifer, We

591
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: really really appreciate it. Thank you. I thought that are

592
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: so interesting, Bridget, like, those are some core tips and

593
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: strategies for how we can still consume the garbage television

594
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: that we all love and those quote unquote guilty pleasure

595
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: shows that we want, but just be a little bit

596
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,959
Speaker 1: more mindful about not passively absorbing bad messages that really

597
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: distill women down to these two dimensional, simplified characters. Like

598
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 1: you do not actually know people who are on reality TV.

599
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 1: As much as I like to think I know Ninie Leaks,

600
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: I don't actually know her, and I don't actually know

601
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: if what she says on the show is actually what

602
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: she said. Has. Jennifer pointed out those shows can be

603
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 1: so heavily edited. I don't actually know what I'm seeing

604
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: or how real any of this reality TV is, so

605
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 1: it's always important to keep that in mind. I also

606
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: think it's super interesting how so much on this show

607
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: comes back to being critical and being critical consumers, and

608
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 1: so it doesn't matter if you're buying that. Nevertheless, she

609
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 1: persisted sweatshirt that you think the proceeds go someplace good,

610
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: but who actually knows because it's etsy or you're watching

611
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: a reality TV show. Really it comes down to being

612
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: critical about what we are consuming and making smart choices

613
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: based on that. Yeah, because in media, you're the products,

614
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: You're what they're selling. So the fact that your eyeballs

615
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: are on a certain TV show, if you're getting that

616
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: TV show for free or you think it's free, keep

617
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: in mind someone's profiting off of your attention. So you

618
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: have to see those macro level motivations behind the media

619
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: that we're consuming and just and be mindful about the

620
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: kind of information diet that you're feeding your brain and

621
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: your mind and your heart. So it's mint listeners we

622
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: want to hear from you. Are you, like me, a

623
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: super fan of reality TV and you know the Kardashian

624
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 1: sister is better than you know your own sisters. Maybe

625
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: maybe you hate reality TV and anybody who watches that

626
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: you roll your eyes immediately. Wherever you follow that spectrum,

627
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. You can get at

628
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at stuff I'm Ever Told you, on

629
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and as always, you love

630
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: getting your emails and our inbox at mom Stuff at

631
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com,